Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 Panadapter with Z10000 for K2

[EricJ]

Hi Paul,

I'm sorry. I haven't received any emails except this one. The LP-PAN is 
available. I'll hold it for you until you can make a decision.


Please let me know what you posted in the other emails so I can answer 
any questions.


Use this gmail address until I can figure out what happened with 
eric_c...@hotmail.com


Eric KE6US

On 4/7/2019 9:35 AM, Paul Gacek wrote:

Eric

I am interested and have emailed you a couple of times off list as you 
suggested.


If the items are sold please let me know.

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog 


On Apr 6, 2019, at 3:40 PM, EricJ > wrote:


Originally an LP-PAN, but upgraded to LP-PAN 2.
No extraneous holes or mods.

Includes:
LP-PAN 2
Z1 buffer amp optimized for K2
BNC-SMA cable to connect K2 to LP-PAN
Manual pdf's on DVD

Photos here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRkmEw7V8ztjrALM8

See telepostinc.com for easy installation, current software and sound 
card recommendations.


$150 including priority mail shipping to US only.

Paypal preferred to email below. Ships immediately after payment is 
received.


Contact me off-list. Semi-active on this list for years. Current info 
at QRZ.com.


Eric KE6US
eric_c...@hotmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 Panadapter with Z10000 for K2

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

Eric

I am interested and have emailed you a couple of times off list as you 
suggested.

If the items are sold please let me know.

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog 


> On Apr 6, 2019, at 3:40 PM, EricJ  wrote:
> 
> Originally an LP-PAN, but upgraded to LP-PAN 2.
> No extraneous holes or mods.
> 
> Includes:
> LP-PAN 2
> Z1 buffer amp optimized for K2
> BNC-SMA cable to connect K2 to LP-PAN
> Manual pdf's on DVD
> 
> Photos here:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRkmEw7V8ztjrALM8
> 
> See telepostinc.com for easy installation, current software and sound card 
> recommendations.
> 
> $150 including priority mail shipping to US only.
> 
> Paypal preferred to email below. Ships immediately after payment is received.
> 
> Contact me off-list. Semi-active on this list for years. Current info at 
> QRZ.com.
> 
> Eric KE6US
> eric_c...@hotmail.com
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[David Gilbert]

OK ... thanks for the clarification.

Dave   AB7E


On 10/15/2015 1:13 PM, Alan wrote:

On 10/14/2015 11:33 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


p.s.  As far as I know, the P3 has to generate its own I-Q signals
internally.  I've never understood why Elecraft didn't provide them as
buffered outputs from the P3 to make it more versatile. Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong here.


The P3 does convert the IF signal to I and Q, but it is all done 
digitally.  To get analog I/Q out of the P3 would require adding a 
dual DAC (digital to analog converter) and some kind of anti-alias 
filter that would handle the variable sample rate.


Alan

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Robert G Strickland]

I second the option of sticking with W7. W10 does a lot of things that I 
just don't need. Why fix what isn't broken.

...robert

On 10/15/2015 14:18, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Jer,

Try HRD version 5 which does not use unicode.  Or use something other
than HRD.  HRD does a lot of polling of the K3 and ties up computer
resources.
LP-Bridge currently does not support Unicode, but I understand Larry is
working on it.

OTOH, you may want to revert to Windows 7 where all is stable. Yeah, the
propaganda from Microsoft would say that there is not a problem with
Windows 10, but users reports indicate otherwise. Support for Win7 is
available through 2020, so I am sticking with Win7 for now.  No sense in
messing with what is currently working.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/15/2015 9:43 AM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

LP-Bridge is not stable on windows 10 used with the newest ham radio
deluxe.
It's been reported to be an HRD issue but I've had LPB crash on it's own
without anything else running on windows 10.
It likely needs an update.




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--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hi Steve

 

Well, PC will be a issue, I not have good PC´s with the radio. Just Dual core 
and not new, I am using two Dell 630 

 

Thanks for the advise

 

De: Steve Lund [mailto:k6um.el...@gmail.com] 
Enviado el: jueves, 15 de octubre de 2015 01:47 p.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM
CC: Elecraft Reflector
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

 

Jorge,

There is a good comparison chart for the LP-PAN vs P3 on the telepostinc 
website (http://www.telepostinc.com/).

I recently got my LP-PAN working with NaP3. No one has commented about pc 
requirements. I originally tried to use LP-PAN with my single core XP pc. While 
it ran, the cpu load was 100% and no other software could be run with it. I 
recently upgraded to a 4 core 64 bit Win7Pro pc. The cpu load is around 20% 
with LP-PAN running along with my logging and packetcluster software. You'll 
also want a large monitor (or put a dual monitor card in the pc) as once you 
get hooked on LP-PAN, you'll always have it running!

The only advantage I see for the P3 is that a computer is not required.

Steve, K6UM

 

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM  
wrote:

THANKS for all the replies, very clear to understand!

And also need to use N1mm like Davis, hope I can do it

Thanks,
Jorge


-Mensaje original-
De: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de David
Smith
Enviado el: jueves, 15 de octubre de 2015 07:10 a.m.
Para: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3


I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.

Any comments appreciated.

David, ND4Y

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jorge
Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:01 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

Hello



I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA



Not understand at all about them, are the same?



May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2 and
P3



Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA



Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W







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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Alan]

On 10/14/2015 11:33 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


p.s.  As far as I know, the P3 has to generate its own I-Q signals
internally.  I've never understood why Elecraft didn't provide them as
buffered outputs from the P3 to make it more versatile.  Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong here.


The P3 does convert the IF signal to I and Q, but it is all done 
digitally.  To get analog I/Q out of the P3 would require adding a dual 
DAC (digital to analog converter) and some kind of anti-alias filter 
that would handle the variable sample rate.


Alan

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Don Wilhelm]

Jer,

Try HRD version 5 which does not use unicode.  Or use something other 
than HRD.  HRD does a lot of polling of the K3 and ties up computer 
resources.
LP-Bridge currently does not support Unicode, but I understand Larry is 
working on it.


OTOH, you may want to revert to Windows 7 where all is stable. Yeah, the 
propaganda from Microsoft would say that there is not a problem with 
Windows 10, but users reports indicate otherwise. Support for Win7 is 
available through 2020, so I am sticking with Win7 for now.  No sense in 
messing with what is currently working.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/15/2015 9:43 AM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

LP-Bridge is not stable on windows 10 used with the newest ham radio deluxe.
It's been reported to be an HRD issue but I've had LPB crash on it's own
without anything else running on windows 10.
It likely needs an update.




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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Ken]

On 10/15/15 12:46 PM, Steve Lund wrote:

You'll also want a large monitor (or put a dual monitor card in
the pc) as once you get hooked on LP-PAN, you'll always have it running!


You don't really need another monitor card on many newer computers.   
Many newer computers have both VGA and DVI outputs. You can connect 
monitors to both of them and have independent screens.


Of course, if you have a panadapter running, plus logging software, dx 
cluster, etc.   two monitors may not be enough!   I just added an 
external USB-to-VGA adapter and hooked up an old LCD TV for a third 
display.


73,
Ken WA8JXM
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[David Gilbert]

I was thinking more along the lines of an app that would calculate an 
actual numerical figure of merit.  Something along the lines of:


*  you tune to a signal of interest
*  the app breaks up the surrounding spectrum into 100 Hz windows
*  the app measures the magnitude of the energy in each 100 Hz window 
that is time-correlated to the energy in the center window
*  the app assigns some sort of weighting to the time-correlated energy 
it finds in each 100 Hz window ... further from center gets weighted 
more heavily
*  adding up all the weighted slices of time-correlated energy yields a 
figure of merit


The P3 can identify bad signals but it can't quantify them, and being 
able to objectively quantify them might go a long way toward getting 
some of them off the air.


73,
Dave   AB7E




On 10/15/2015 12:01 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Wed,10/14/2015 11:33 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
One that is dear to my heart would be an application that quantifies 
splatter and key clicks from crummy signals. 


Properly adjusted, the P3, especially with the SVGA adapter, can do an 
excellent job of displaying wide, dirty signals. Here are some things 
I've done with my P3/SVGA. Also look at my P3 measurements (no SVGA 
yet) in


http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf

Yes, the P3 dynamic range is only about 100 dB and only 80 dB can be 
displayed on screen, but all the serious trash is in the range of 
20-50 dB below the peak of any given signal.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Steve Lund]

Jorge,

There is a good comparison chart for the LP-PAN vs P3 on the telepostinc
website (http://www.telepostinc.com/).

I recently got my LP-PAN working with NaP3. No one has commented about pc
requirements. I originally tried to use LP-PAN with my single core XP pc.
While it ran, the cpu load was 100% and no other software could be run with
it. I recently upgraded to a 4 core 64 bit Win7Pro pc. The cpu load is
around 20% with LP-PAN running along with my logging and packetcluster
software. You'll also want a large monitor (or put a dual monitor card in
the pc) as once you get hooked on LP-PAN, you'll always have it running!

The only advantage I see for the P3 is that a computer is not required.

Steve, K6UM

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:

> THANKS for all the replies, very clear to understand!
>
> And also need to use N1mm like Davis, hope I can do it
>
> Thanks,
> Jorge
>
>
> -Mensaje original-
> De: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de David
> Smith
> Enviado el: jueves, 15 de octubre de 2015 07:10 a.m.
> Para: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3
>
> I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed
> my
> LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).
>
> My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
> tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
> never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
> it past the first port conflict.
>
> Any comments appreciated.
>
> David, ND4Y
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> Jorge
> Diez - CX6VM
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:01 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3
>
> Hello
>
>
>
> I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA
>
>
>
> Not understand at all about them, are the same?
>
>
>
> May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2
> and
> P3
>
>
>
> Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
> CX6VM/CW5W
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en
> busca
> de virus.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[ae4pb]

LP-Bridge is not stable on windows 10 used with the newest ham radio deluxe.
It's been reported to be an HRD issue but I've had LPB crash on it's own
without anything else running on windows 10.
It likely needs an update. 

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Larry
Phipps
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:08 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

Only one program can connect directly to a serial device like the K3. 
You need to use a port sharing app like LP-Bridge or several others out
there to allow this to happen. LP-Bridge in this case connects to the K3,
and lets you create "virtual" ports for the SDR program, loggers, etc. That
way, each program thinks it's talking directly to the K3, but in fact the
virtual port traffic is routed and sequenced within the app to get access to
the K3 as needed.

Here's a link to my LP-Bridge web page...
http://www.telepostinc.com/LPB.html

Larry N8LP



On 10/15/2015 6:10 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Message: 24
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:10:13 -0400
> From: "David Smith" 
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3 
> Message-ID:<01d10731$aeae5e70$0c0b1b50$@harlanonline.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently 
> installed my
> LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).
>
> My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
> tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 
> K3s and never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I 
> didn't make it past the first port conflict.
>
> Any comments appreciated.
>
> David, ND4Y

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Larry Phipps]

Only one program can connect directly to a serial device like the K3. 
You need to use a port sharing app like LP-Bridge or several others out 
there to allow this to happen. LP-Bridge in this case connects to the 
K3, and lets you create "virtual" ports for the SDR program, loggers, 
etc. That way, each program thinks it's talking directly to the K3, but 
in fact the virtual port traffic is routed and sequenced within the app 
to get access to the K3 as needed.


Here's a link to my LP-Bridge web page...
http://www.telepostinc.com/LPB.html

Larry N8LP



On 10/15/2015 6:10 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 24
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:10:13 -0400
From: "David Smith"
To:
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3
Message-ID:<01d10731$aeae5e70$0c0b1b50$@harlanonline.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"

I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.

Any comments appreciated.

David, ND4Y


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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Don Wilhelm]

LPB2 is a version of LP-Bridge that is intended for use with 
transceivers other than the K3 (K3S and KX3).
If you are running a K3, LP-Bridge (not LPB2) will provide better 
performance because it buffers some of the K3 information and thus 
reduces the need for frequent access to the K3 for information.  As a 
"for instance", LPB knows that the K3 is in USB mode, so when an 
application connected to one if its virtual ports polls for the mode of 
the K3, LPB can send that to the application without polling the K3 - in 
other words, it reduces the traffic between the computer and the K3.


Since LPB2 is not K3 dedicated, I would expect that there would be more 
direct accesses to the K3 than with LPB.


In other words, LPB2 is *not* an updated revision of LPB.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/15/2015 8:52 AM, Ken wrote:

David,

I'm using LPB2 (LP Bridge) to handle the serial port  access. FWIW, I 
use DX Lab Commander for multi rig use.   That works especially well 
for allowing either rig (K3 or Flex 6300) access control to the 
KAT-500 tuner as well as logging software, fldigi, etc.




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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Ken]

David,

I'm using LPB2 (LP Bridge) to handle the serial port  access. FWIW, I 
use DX Lab Commander for multi rig use.   That works especially well for 
allowing either rig (K3 or Flex 6300) access control to the KAT-500 
tuner as well as logging software, fldigi, etc.


Ken WA8JXM

On 10/15/15 6:10 AM, David Smith wrote:

I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.

Any comments appreciated.


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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Art Hejduk]

Jorge,

I went the cheapest route, and it works quite well.  I use a softrock lite
II which cost $21.  I needed a stereo sound card for my laptop, so I
ordered a USB sound card for around $14 from Amazon.  I later changed to a
Xonar U5 sound card, which cost $60 after a $10 rebate.  It is a better
sound card, but honestly, the $14 sound card was more than sufficient for
my needs.  The Xonar U5 gives twice the viewed spectrum compared with the
$14 sound card, but when I operate CW, which is most of the time, I don't
view more than about 60kHz anyway.  Adding an enclosure for a couple of
dollars from Radio Shack makes the whole package cost under $100 (using the
more expensive $60 sound card).  I use NaP3 software with this setup..

By the way, my first experience with a panadapter was with HDSDR and a
Peaberry V2 transceiver.  Since it is an SDR, I tried connecting the
Peaberry V2 to my K3 IF output, and it worked great as a panadapter using
NaP3,  I then decided to buy the softrock lite II to free up the Peaberry
V2 since I didn't want to dedicate it to being just an SDR receiver in this
application.

A great part of the fun for me is getting a project working.  This is
certainly not as easy as buying a P3 and plugging it in, but it is much
cheaper, and not all that difficult.

73,
Art  WB8ENE


On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:

> Hello
>
>
>
> I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA
>
>
>
> Not understand at all about them, are the same?
>
>
>
> May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2
> and
> P3
>
>
>
> Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
> CX6VM/CW5W
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Don Wilhelm]

David,

LP-Pan is just a piece of hardware, and has no connection with COM ports.
However, the software application that shows you the panadapter display 
on the computer will usually use a COM port to indicate the frequency on 
the display and may have some other rig control functions.
Note that a com port is not *required* for the panadapter display 
portion, only a soundcard is needed for that - however, that panadapter 
display becomes more useful if the frequency is collected from the rig 
via the COM port.


One application at a time is able to use a physical COM port, but there 
are software applications that provide virtual port replication - like 
LP-Bridge.
LP-bridge connects to the COM port used by the transceiver and other 
applications that also need to 'talk' to the transceiver connect to the 
virtual ports of LP-Bridge.


An alternative to LP-Bridge is Win4K3suite which does the same port 
"expansion" function in a slightly different manner.  Also Google for 
"virtual COM port" for other alternatives.


You will find more information on LP-Pan and LP-Bridge on the 
www.telepostinc.com website and on the LP-Pan Yahoo group.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/15/2015 6:10 AM, David Smith wrote:

I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.




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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

THANKS for all the replies, very clear to understand!

And also need to use N1mm like Davis, hope I can do it

Thanks,
Jorge


-Mensaje original-
De: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de David
Smith
Enviado el: jueves, 15 de octubre de 2015 07:10 a.m.
Para: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).  

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.

Any comments appreciated.

David, ND4Y

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jorge
Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:01 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

Hello

 

I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA

 

Not understand at all about them, are the same?

 

May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2 and
P3 

 

Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA

 

Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W

 

 



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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[David Smith]

I have an additional question in addition to Jorge.  I recently installed my
LPAN2 (I do not have a P3).  

My question is that can I run my LPAN2 at the same time I run N1MM+.   I
tried and got a port conflict the with K3.  Also, I run SO2R with 2 K3s and
never made it that far to check additional port conflicts as I didn't make
it past the first port conflict.

Any comments appreciated.

David, ND4Y

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jorge
Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:01 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

Hello

 

I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA

 

Not understand at all about them, are the same?

 

May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2 and
P3 

 

Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA

 

Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W

 

 



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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,10/14/2015 11:33 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
One that is dear to my heart would be an application that quantifies 
splatter and key clicks from crummy signals. 


Properly adjusted, the P3, especially with the SVGA adapter, can do an 
excellent job of displaying wide, dirty signals. Here are some things 
I've done with my P3/SVGA. Also look at my P3 measurements (no SVGA yet) in


http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf

Yes, the P3 dynamic range is only about 100 dB and only 80 dB can be 
displayed on screen, but all the serious trash is in the range of 20-50 
dB below the peak of any given signal.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[David Gilbert]

From my point of view there is another consideration at hand here. A 
hardware interface like LP-Pan that provides I-Q signals to a PC sound 
card allows the use of other SDR-type software like CW Skimmer, and 
while CW Skimmer may not be of interest to everyone I believe other 
third party software will eventually show up that would be desirable to me.


One that is dear to my heart would be an application that quantifies 
splatter and key clicks from crummy signals.  I suspect that would be 
difficult for SSB signals, but I can't think of any reason why it 
wouldn't be practical for CW.


Another possibility might be an app that profiles propagation over time 
based upon received callsigns with the rig otherwise unattended.


The P3 is a panadapter, and by all accounts a very good one ... but an 
LP-Pan with the right software could be much more.


73,
Dave   AB7E

p.s.  As far as I know, the P3 has to generate its own I-Q signals 
internally.  I've never understood why Elecraft didn't provide them as 
buffered outputs from the P3 to make it more versatile.  Somebody please 
correct me if I'm wrong here.




On 10/14/2015 9:07 PM, Matthew Cook wrote:

Jorge,

Don has given you a good summary of the two devices.

When considering the PC path you should be aware that there is more
opportunity to receive and display a much wider bandwidth than either the
P3 or LP-Pan can provide.  At the moment both the P3 and LP-Pan are limited
to 200kHz and 192kHz of bandwidth respectively.  So they can see +/-100kHz
or so either side of the  current VCO frequency at full span.  This is
great for giving you situational awareness of who and what is happening
either side of your VCO frequency.

However if you own a Software Defined Radio and have a transverter
interface in your Elecraft rig, you can take full advantage of the RX Loop
terminals and insert a RF splitter like this (
http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZSC-2-1.pdf).   With this setup it means
that signals come in off your antenna are routed out the RX Loop out
terminal and in to the splitter; one path then turns back into the radio
through the RF Loop In terminals (albeit with a 3.6dB loss) and the other
path can be taken off to the SDR. You need to purchase the RX Splitter
separately ~US$20-40 off ebay.

This splitter effectively puts both your SDR and K3/K3s receivers in
parallel fed off the same antenna, just keep in mind that signal levels
into both the Rx and SDR will be half an S-point lower due to the spliter
insertion loss.   If signals fade or are weak, you can switch the RX loop
out of circuit and bypass the splitter, handy trick on a K3 since there's a
button for it. My favourite button actually.

So the hidden benefits of an external SDR in liu of the P3 and LP-Pan are;

- ability to monitor another band and wait for it to open
   - watch for 10m activity while 15m is running
   - keep an eye on 6m while playing on HF
- Youi can achieve pan-adaptor bandwidths greater than 200kHz
- Watch an entire band for activity at once BW > 400kHz

The downside however is that the SDR's that can survive strong signals
without turning up their toes will cost you hundreds of dollars, theres
more software work and jigging and poking of software to get them to go.

It is also possible with a tiny bit more software work to have the SDR and
K3 frequencies and mode track, which means you get mouse control over the
K3 where you can click on the SDR waterfall on the PC and have the K3 track
the SDR, you can also have the SDR change bands when you press the Band
Keys on the K3.

I personally find that with a good SDR I've not felt the need for the
second RX option in my K3 yet.   I do however use a RFSpace Cloud-IQ that
can monitor 1.8MHz with a reasonable dynamic range.  Previously I've used
the RFSpace SDR-IQ and Funcube Dongle Pro plus, results with both were
excellent.   I prefer SDR Radio for my pan-adaptor.  We've used this setup
in our multi-multi contest QRO contest station for a number of years, 24"
portrait pan-adaptor displays are now common in our club.

However as Don has already mentioned, you need to decide on a PC (LP-Pan or
SDR) or no PC path (P3).

There is alot of fun to be had with an external SDR too if you want to push
the boundary.  All of the devices discussed work as described, I don't
think you'll be disappointed which ever way you go.  I will however be
selling my LP-Pan2 adaptor in the not too distant future.

I hope that the above helps.  YMMV.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 15 October 2015 at 13:24, Don Wilhelm  wrote:


Jorge,

The goal of both the P3 and LP-Pan (with PC software) is the same -- to
give you a panadapter display of the IF output of the K3 (K3S) or any other
radio.

The P3 does it by direct digital means and displays the resulting spectrum
and waterfall on the native screen.  With the SVGA option, it can display
the same information on a larger SVGA monitor - no computer is involved.

LP-Pan is a hardware box tha

Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Matthew Cook]

Jorge,

Don has given you a good summary of the two devices.

When considering the PC path you should be aware that there is more
opportunity to receive and display a much wider bandwidth than either the
P3 or LP-Pan can provide.  At the moment both the P3 and LP-Pan are limited
to 200kHz and 192kHz of bandwidth respectively.  So they can see +/-100kHz
or so either side of the  current VCO frequency at full span.  This is
great for giving you situational awareness of who and what is happening
either side of your VCO frequency.

However if you own a Software Defined Radio and have a transverter
interface in your Elecraft rig, you can take full advantage of the RX Loop
terminals and insert a RF splitter like this (
http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZSC-2-1.pdf).   With this setup it means
that signals come in off your antenna are routed out the RX Loop out
terminal and in to the splitter; one path then turns back into the radio
through the RF Loop In terminals (albeit with a 3.6dB loss) and the other
path can be taken off to the SDR. You need to purchase the RX Splitter
separately ~US$20-40 off ebay.

This splitter effectively puts both your SDR and K3/K3s receivers in
parallel fed off the same antenna, just keep in mind that signal levels
into both the Rx and SDR will be half an S-point lower due to the spliter
insertion loss.   If signals fade or are weak, you can switch the RX loop
out of circuit and bypass the splitter, handy trick on a K3 since there's a
button for it. My favourite button actually.

So the hidden benefits of an external SDR in liu of the P3 and LP-Pan are;

   - ability to monitor another band and wait for it to open
  - watch for 10m activity while 15m is running
  - keep an eye on 6m while playing on HF
   - Youi can achieve pan-adaptor bandwidths greater than 200kHz
   - Watch an entire band for activity at once BW > 400kHz

The downside however is that the SDR's that can survive strong signals
without turning up their toes will cost you hundreds of dollars, theres
more software work and jigging and poking of software to get them to go.

It is also possible with a tiny bit more software work to have the SDR and
K3 frequencies and mode track, which means you get mouse control over the
K3 where you can click on the SDR waterfall on the PC and have the K3 track
the SDR, you can also have the SDR change bands when you press the Band
Keys on the K3.

I personally find that with a good SDR I've not felt the need for the
second RX option in my K3 yet.   I do however use a RFSpace Cloud-IQ that
can monitor 1.8MHz with a reasonable dynamic range.  Previously I've used
the RFSpace SDR-IQ and Funcube Dongle Pro plus, results with both were
excellent.   I prefer SDR Radio for my pan-adaptor.  We've used this setup
in our multi-multi contest QRO contest station for a number of years, 24"
portrait pan-adaptor displays are now common in our club.

However as Don has already mentioned, you need to decide on a PC (LP-Pan or
SDR) or no PC path (P3).

There is alot of fun to be had with an external SDR too if you want to push
the boundary.  All of the devices discussed work as described, I don't
think you'll be disappointed which ever way you go.  I will however be
selling my LP-Pan2 adaptor in the not too distant future.

I hope that the above helps.  YMMV.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 15 October 2015 at 13:24, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Jorge,
>
> The goal of both the P3 and LP-Pan (with PC software) is the same -- to
> give you a panadapter display of the IF output of the K3 (K3S) or any other
> radio.
>
> The P3 does it by direct digital means and displays the resulting spectrum
> and waterfall on the native screen.  With the SVGA option, it can display
> the same information on a larger SVGA monitor - no computer is involved.
>
> LP-Pan is a hardware box that takes the IF output and produces I/Q
> quadrature audio outputs.  Those I/Q outputs must be sent to a soundcard
> and processed by a computer running SDR software (HDSDR, Win4K3suite, NaP3,
> etc.) to produce a spectrum display and waterfall.
>
> If you are trying to decide between the two solutions, consider the
> "computer or no computer" considerations.  LP-Pan requires a computer to
> process the I/Q signals, but the P3 (with or without the SVGA option) is
> independent of an external computer.  The P3 with SVGA option simply
> provides a larger display on an SVGA monitor (no computer involved).
>
> If you are willing to deal with 'computer things' like soundcard setup
> problems and software application setup problems running on the computer,
> then LP-Pan may be an OK solution for you.  However, if you want something
> that can provide a panadapter display without dependency on a computer,
> then the P3 would be the best choice (with or without the SVGA option).
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/14/2015 9:01 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA
>>
>> Not understand at al

Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 and P3

[Don Wilhelm]

Jorge,

The goal of both the P3 and LP-Pan (with PC software) is the same -- to 
give you a panadapter display of the IF output of the K3 (K3S) or any 
other radio.


The P3 does it by direct digital means and displays the resulting 
spectrum and waterfall on the native screen.  With the SVGA option, it 
can display the same information on a larger SVGA monitor - no computer 
is involved.


LP-Pan is a hardware box that takes the IF output and produces I/Q 
quadrature audio outputs.  Those I/Q outputs must be sent to a soundcard 
and processed by a computer running SDR software (HDSDR, Win4K3suite, 
NaP3, etc.) to produce a spectrum display and waterfall.


If you are trying to decide between the two solutions, consider the 
"computer or no computer" considerations.  LP-Pan requires a computer to 
process the I/Q signals, but the P3 (with or without the SVGA option) is 
independent of an external computer.  The P3 with SVGA option simply 
provides a larger display on an SVGA monitor (no computer involved).


If you are willing to deal with 'computer things' like soundcard setup 
problems and software application setup problems running on the 
computer, then LP-Pan may be an OK solution for you.  However, if you 
want something that can provide a panadapter display without dependency 
on a computer, then the P3 would be the best choice (with or without the 
SVGA option).


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/14/2015 9:01 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

Hello

I am looking for information about LP-PAN 2 and the P3 SVGA

Not understand at all about them, are the same?

May I use LP-PAN 2 without P3 or there´s any benefit using both LP-PAN 2 and
P3

Or is better to use just the P3 SVGA




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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan for K3 - ew in box for sale

[William Hein]

$149 not $1149 for LP-Pan K3!!!

Sorry about that.

Bill AA7XT


On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:40 AM, William Hein  wrote:

> Factory assembled LP-PAN for the Elecraft K3 for sale.
> Serial number 00712. I purchased this new and never used
> it. New in box. Power cable included. $1149 plus $10 USPS
> priority mail shipping.
>
> PayPal preferred by will take personal check or credit card.
>
> Photo on eHam Classifieds
>
> 73
> Bill AA7XT
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN 2 For Sale

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

Steve. 

I would like to purchase the LP-PAN2 that you listed for sale.

Give me your mailing address and I will get the payment out to you in the next 
mail.

Or, if you prefer, I can pay immediately via paypal.

73, Charlie k3ICH

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan for sale

[Greg]

The LP-Pan has been sold.  Thank you.

73
Greg


On 4/1/13, Greg  wrote:
> Selling an LP Pan setup for K3 IF with the attenuator circuit.  $150
> shipped.
>
> Tnx and 73
> Greg - AB7R
> 360-320-3436
> ab7r at cablespeed dot com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan for sale

[Ron Litt]

I am seriously interested but must ask why you are selling?

Ron K5HM.
On Apr 1, 2013 9:00 AM, "Greg"  wrote:

> Selling an LP Pan setup for K3 IF with the attenuator circuit.  $150
> shipped.
>
> Tnx and 73
> Greg - AB7R
> 360-320-3436
> ab7r at cablespeed dot com
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Re: [Elecraft] Lp-Pan

[DGB]

Found one ... thanks 73 Dwight NS9I

On 4/4/2012 8:53 AM, DGB wrote:
> Does anyone have a new or used LP-Pan for the K-3 for sale? Prefer the
> pre-amp version but would consider without. Also looking for an E-MU
> 0202 or 0204 ext. soundcard?
>
> please reply off the list with price.
>
> thanks 73 Dwight NS9I
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan for K3 For sale. Never used factory assembled

[Mike Fatchett W0MU]

Sold pending payment.

On 12/4/11 1:27 PM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
> Does not have the preamp.
>
> $175.00 and I will ship via Priority Mail.
>
> W0MU
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Re: [Elecraft] [LP-PAN] K3 FW 4.31 problem

[Steve Ellington]

Well I just checked it again and now it's working ok. I guess the reboot from 
last night fixed it. Sorry if I caused any confusion! 

Steve
N4LQ
  - Original Message - 
  From: Larry Phipps 
  To: lp-...@yahoogroups.com 
  Cc: Steve Ellington ; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net ; Wayne Burdick - N6KR, 
Elecraft 
  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 1:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [LP-PAN] K3 FW 4.31 problem



  Hi Steve. I tried 4.31 with the current version of LP-Bridge and I couldn't 
reproduce this with just LP-Bridge or with LP-Bridge and PowerSDR/IF v1.19.3.5. 
I did have a little trouble getting 4.31 to load, but after a couple tries it 
loaded OK. It is normal for PowerSDR to mute when XMIT is pressed or key/paddle 
is used, but in my case it releases quickly as it should. What polling rate are 
you using for LP-Bridge and what kind of serial port do you have? I have an 
FTDI USB to serial adapter on my laptop. The OS is W7 32-bit.

  73,
  Larry N8LP



  On 3/25/2011 6:26 PM, Steve Ellington wrote: 

I recently loaded new firmware 4.31 and observed the following when used 
with PowerSDR-IF and LPPAN.
PowerSDR enters MUTE status when K3 buttons RIT, XIT, XMIT, Menu are used. 
Also happens when K3 is keyed with key or paddle. PowerSDR-IF MUTE triggers and 
will not disengage automatically but will release when clicked with mouse.
Has anyone else noticed?
Steve
N4LQ



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Re: [Elecraft] [LP-PAN] K3 FW 4.31 problem

[Larry Phipps]

  Hi Steve. I tried 4.31 with the current version of LP-Bridge and I 
couldn't reproduce this with just LP-Bridge or with LP-Bridge and 
PowerSDR/IF v1.19.3.5. I did have a little trouble getting 4.31 to load, 
but after a couple tries it loaded OK. It is normal for PowerSDR to mute 
when XMIT is pressed or key/paddle is used, but in my case it releases 
quickly as it should. What polling rate are you using for LP-Bridge and 
what kind of serial port do you have? I have an FTDI USB to serial 
adapter on my laptop. The OS is W7 32-bit.

73,
Larry N8LP



On 3/25/2011 6:26 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
>
>
> I recently loaded new firmware 4.31 and observed the following when 
> used with PowerSDR-IF and LPPAN.
> PowerSDR enters MUTE status when K3 buttons RIT, XIT, XMIT, Menu are 
> used. Also happens when K3 is keyed with key or paddle. PowerSDR-IF 
> MUTE triggers and will not disengage automatically but will release 
> when clicked with mouse.
> Has anyone else noticed?
> Steve
> N4LQ
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[David Woolley (E.L)]

Sorry, but the only way of handling this well is proper interleaved style.

Edward R. Cole wrote:
> 
> The sensitivity of the display is tied to the sampling rate (FFT/BLK 
> size on the control panel of the SDR-IQ).  With maximum sampling of 
> 262,144 I get a bin size of 0.42 Hz.  This also referred to as the RBW 

I believe that one of the early articles was talking about professional 
systems that actually run interleaved FFTs with frequency offsets, so 
several bins overlap and are averaged.

I suspect it is true that all amateur radio power spectrum estimation is 
done with a single FFT.

> (resolution band width).  The narrower the FFT routine in the sw is, the 
> more sensitive the display is.  It is analogous of using narrow filters 
> to hear very weak signals.  But one cannot copy CW using bandwidths 
> under 25-Hz due to filter "ringing" effect, so the panadapter display 

The real reason is that the sidebands of fast CW extend beyond 25Hz. 
The first order sidebands of 12 wpm morse are at +/- 5Hz, so, with 25Hz 
bandwidth you have lost most of the signal (as against the carrier) at 
more than 30 wpm.

> can be several times more sensitive than what one hears, depending on 
> what the sw permits.

What you are comparing with the pan adapter is the ability to hear the 
carrier, not the modulation.  The effective bandwidth of the ears is, I 
believe, less than 25Hz at typical sidetone frequencies, so whilst you 
may not perform as well at detecting the carrier as the FFT, you will 
perform much better than the ability to recover the modulation.
> 
> I usually run my SDR-IQ at 65,536 or 32,768 samples/sec with RBW of 1.7 
> or 3.4 Hz.  WSJT sw that is used for eme has a RBW of 4.3 Hz (I believe) 
> and that will display signals 10-dB weaker than can be heard.  WSJT has 
> a max span of about 4-KHz.

There is non-coherent integration going on here as well.  You get a 10 
log10 (n) improvement in SNR of the carrier by averaging n samples.  As 
far as I know the EME reflection process spreads the spectrum and 
prevents coherent integration of even very slow morse. 
http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/wksig1.htm seems to suggest something 
around 7Hz/GHz of spreading.
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Kok Chen]

On Sep 15, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:

> If you turn on averaging in the waterfall you can see farther down into the 
> noise.  It works best on steady carriers.  With CW signals you have to keep 
> the averaging time less than a dit.


I have found that per-bin averaging of the power spectrum works rather well 
even with low duty cycle, keyed carriers.  Take a look at the two waterfalls in 
the "Weak Signal Button" section that is almost at the end of this page:

http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaModem/UsersManual/mfskManual/mfskManual/dominoex.html

The signal that you see there is DominoEX, where each carrier is present on 
average for only one out of 18 chip periods.  Moreover, with DominoEX, if a 
carrier is on for one chip, it is always off during the next chip, so there is 
never a "dah," as in CW, but only very short "dits."

73 
Chen, W7AY

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Alan Bloom]

> Also, the waterfall (or Panafall) display should be used to
> take advantage of the averaging, which reduces random noise.

That's a point I forgot to mention.  If you turn on averaging in the
waterfall you can see farther down into the noise.  It works best on
steady carriers.  With CW signals you have to keep the averaging time
less than a dit.

On the P3, you turn on waterfall averaging with the "Wfall Avg" menu
selection.

Alan N1AL


On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 23:03 -0700, N8LP wrote:
> That's useful info for comparison, Alan. 
> 
> To satisfy my curiosity and answer the original question, I just ran a
> similar test with my LP-PAN, with and w/o the upcoming preamp mod kit.
> First, I should mention a couple differences in PowerSDR/IF and the P3. With
> PowerSDR/IF the sampling rate is fixed to one of three values... 48kHz,
> 96kHz or 192 kHz. The sensitivity of the display is the same at any span for
> any given sample rate. The sensitivity is proportional to sampling rate, so
> it is 3dB better at 48kHz than it is at 96 kHz, and 3dB better at 96kHz than
> it is at 192 kHz. My tests were run with the popular E-MU 0202 sound card
> (the E-MU 1212m is a few dB quieter).
> 
> With the K3 preamp ON, the stock LP-PAN at 96kHz sampling rate (and 96kHz
> span) produces a blip on the pan display 10dB above the noise floor with an
> input signal of -128dBm (noise floor of -138dBm). With the LP-PAN preamp kit
> installed, the sensitivity improves by 7dB (noise floor of -145dBm). Dynamic
> range remains the same. Remember, the noise floor will be 3dB better if
> 48kHz sampling rate is selected, and 3dB worse if 192kHz sampling rate is
> selected. 
> 
> For any weak signal work, the K3 preamp should be ON to overcome the loss of
> the K3 buffer. Also, the waterfall (or Panafall) display should be used to
> take advantage of the averaging, which reduces random noise. With
> PowerSDR/IF waterfall, I am able to clearly see signals within a couple dB
> of the noise floor, and which I can barely detect in the K3 by ear.
> 
> Also, remember that if you feed LP-PAN from the P3, there is an additional
> 3dB loss in the splitter. I have designed the LP-PAN preamp to provide a
> noise figure a few dB better than would normally be necessary, in order to
> compensate for the loss of the P3 splitter. The NF of LP-PAN w/preamp kit is
> about 6-7dB. 
> 
> Larry N8LP 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> With the K3 preamp turned on I can see a -135 dB signal, even at 200 kHz
> span.  (I had to use a 10 dB attenuator to get the signal generator to
> go that low.)
> 
> Alan N1AL
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[N8LP]

That's useful info for comparison, Alan. 

To satisfy my curiosity and answer the original question, I just ran a
similar test with my LP-PAN, with and w/o the upcoming preamp mod kit.
First, I should mention a couple differences in PowerSDR/IF and the P3. With
PowerSDR/IF the sampling rate is fixed to one of three values... 48kHz,
96kHz or 192 kHz. The sensitivity of the display is the same at any span for
any given sample rate. The sensitivity is proportional to sampling rate, so
it is 3dB better at 48kHz than it is at 96 kHz, and 3dB better at 96kHz than
it is at 192 kHz. My tests were run with the popular E-MU 0202 sound card
(the E-MU 1212m is a few dB quieter).

With the K3 preamp ON, the stock LP-PAN at 96kHz sampling rate (and 96kHz
span) produces a blip on the pan display 10dB above the noise floor with an
input signal of -128dBm (noise floor of -138dBm). With the LP-PAN preamp kit
installed, the sensitivity improves by 7dB (noise floor of -145dBm). Dynamic
range remains the same. Remember, the noise floor will be 3dB better if
48kHz sampling rate is selected, and 3dB worse if 192kHz sampling rate is
selected. 

For any weak signal work, the K3 preamp should be ON to overcome the loss of
the K3 buffer. Also, the waterfall (or Panafall) display should be used to
take advantage of the averaging, which reduces random noise. With
PowerSDR/IF waterfall, I am able to clearly see signals within a couple dB
of the noise floor, and which I can barely detect in the K3 by ear.

Also, remember that if you feed LP-PAN from the P3, there is an additional
3dB loss in the splitter. I have designed the LP-PAN preamp to provide a
noise figure a few dB better than would normally be necessary, in order to
compensate for the loss of the P3 splitter. The NF of LP-PAN w/preamp kit is
about 6-7dB. 

Larry N8LP 

 



With the K3 preamp turned on I can see a -135 dB signal, even at 200 kHz
span.  (I had to use a 10 dB attenuator to get the signal generator to
go that low.)

Alan N1AL

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Merv Schweigert]

Alan,  thanks for the explanation,  sounds like there is some other 
problem then
if people are not seeing the weak signals that they can hear. 
Will hook up the P3 here shortly and see what mine does.  If you can see 
-127DBm
at 30 KHZ it sounds fine to me. 
73 Merv K9FD  /  KH7C
> No I didn't have to narrow the span to 2 kHz to see the -127 dBm signal.
> Anything less than about 30 kHz was sufficient.
>
> Also, remember I had the K3 preamp off and the attenuator on.  With the
> attenuator off, the -127 dBm signal is visible all the way up to 200 kHz
> span.
>
> With the K3 preamp turned on I can see a -135 dB signal, even at 200 kHz
> span.  (I had to use a 10 dB attenuator to get the signal generator to
> go that low.)
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 07:51 -1000, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>   
>> For some reason that goes against what I think many are looking for in the
>> P3,  if one has to narrow the span to 2khz, then I see no use for the P3 
>> at all,  I need
>> to see what is on the band at -127DBm at 30 to 50khz or more span.  If 
>> the signal is
>> only seen at 2KHZ,  I can hear that by ear and dont need the P3.   I 
>> think VHF
>> operators are saying the same thing,  they need to look over a larger 
>> portion of the
>> band and spot weak signals and move to them,  not narrow to 2KHZ and sit 
>> there
>> and tune the radio hoping to find a weak signal,  thats what you do 
>> without a P3. 
>> Does the LP Pan also work that poorly that you cannot see weak signals 
>> 30KHZ
>> away? 
>> I do notice that with all the P3 sales,  you do not see many LP Pans for 
>> sale,  so either
>> people who buy the P3 are just buying it to have another Elecraft 
>> product,  or they are
>> keeping both and not sure yet which is the best?   
>> Most of my operation will be low band,  160 meters, and if I cannot see 
>> the weak
>> signals on the band and cover at least 30 KHZ then the P3 is of no use 
>> at all. 
>> Bill W4ZV are you seeing the weak signals on 160 that are 20 or 30KHZ away?
>> Or do you have to narrow the span down to see a signal that is barely 
>> audible?
>> 160 ops would like to know.
>> 73 Merv K9FD  /  KH7C
>>
>>
>> 
>>> Hi Larry,
>>>
>>> It depends on the span.  Unlike some other panadapters, the P3
>>> automatically reduces the sample rate as you narrow the span, which
>>> improves the sensitivity.
>>>
>>> For example, I have my HP8656B signal generator set to 3640 kHz with the
>>> amplitude as low as it will go (-127 dBm).  The K3 has the preamp off,
>>> the attenuator on, and default CW shift and width.  Under those
>>> conditions I can just barely hear the carrier.  It's weak enough that if
>>> it were a modulated CW signal I don't think I could copy it.
>>>
>>> However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3
>>> span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder
>>> and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into
>>> the noise.
>>>
>>> So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of
>>> the noise.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Alan N1AL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 06:03 -0700, Larry K1UO wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
 Bill,

I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
 stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
 entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the 
 K3
 IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
 some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
 than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
 far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
 Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
 73




   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
 long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
 signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I 
 got
 my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig 
 detection
 with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE 
 out
 there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??

 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed


 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Larry K1UO]

Hi Alan,

  Ill admit I didnt try a narrower span and I normally use the +-15Khz
setting  (30Khz span) on the 160 meter cw band.  Ill try narrowing it up and
see if it picks up the very weak signals but I dont want to operate on a too
narrow span or, as they say, it becomes much less useful to me. 

73 Larry 



"However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3 
span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder 
and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into 
the noise. 

So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of 
the noise. "

73, 

Alan N1AL 



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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Alan Bloom]

No I didn't have to narrow the span to 2 kHz to see the -127 dBm signal.
Anything less than about 30 kHz was sufficient.

Also, remember I had the K3 preamp off and the attenuator on.  With the
attenuator off, the -127 dBm signal is visible all the way up to 200 kHz
span.

With the K3 preamp turned on I can see a -135 dB signal, even at 200 kHz
span.  (I had to use a 10 dB attenuator to get the signal generator to
go that low.)

Alan N1AL




On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 07:51 -1000, Merv Schweigert wrote:
> For some reason that goes against what I think many are looking for in the
> P3,  if one has to narrow the span to 2khz, then I see no use for the P3 
> at all,  I need
> to see what is on the band at -127DBm at 30 to 50khz or more span.  If 
> the signal is
> only seen at 2KHZ,  I can hear that by ear and dont need the P3.   I 
> think VHF
> operators are saying the same thing,  they need to look over a larger 
> portion of the
> band and spot weak signals and move to them,  not narrow to 2KHZ and sit 
> there
> and tune the radio hoping to find a weak signal,  thats what you do 
> without a P3. 
> Does the LP Pan also work that poorly that you cannot see weak signals 
> 30KHZ
> away? 
> I do notice that with all the P3 sales,  you do not see many LP Pans for 
> sale,  so either
> people who buy the P3 are just buying it to have another Elecraft 
> product,  or they are
> keeping both and not sure yet which is the best?   
> Most of my operation will be low band,  160 meters, and if I cannot see 
> the weak
> signals on the band and cover at least 30 KHZ then the P3 is of no use 
> at all. 
> Bill W4ZV are you seeing the weak signals on 160 that are 20 or 30KHZ away?
> Or do you have to narrow the span down to see a signal that is barely 
> audible?
> 160 ops would like to know.
> 73 Merv K9FD  /  KH7C
> 
> 
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > It depends on the span.  Unlike some other panadapters, the P3
> > automatically reduces the sample rate as you narrow the span, which
> > improves the sensitivity.
> >
> > For example, I have my HP8656B signal generator set to 3640 kHz with the
> > amplitude as low as it will go (-127 dBm).  The K3 has the preamp off,
> > the attenuator on, and default CW shift and width.  Under those
> > conditions I can just barely hear the carrier.  It's weak enough that if
> > it were a modulated CW signal I don't think I could copy it.
> >
> > However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3
> > span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder
> > and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into
> > the noise.
> >
> > So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of
> > the noise.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Alan N1AL
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 06:03 -0700, Larry K1UO wrote:
> >   
> >> Bill,
> >>
> >>I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
> >> stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
> >> entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the 
> >> K3
> >> IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
> >> some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
> >> than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
> >> far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
> >> Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
> >> 73
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
> >> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
> >> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I 
> >> got
> >> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig 
> >> detection
> >> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE 
> >> out
> >> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
> >>
> >> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >
> >
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Merv Schweigert]

For some reason that goes against what I think many are looking for in the
P3,  if one has to narrow the span to 2khz, then I see no use for the P3 
at all,  I need
to see what is on the band at -127DBm at 30 to 50khz or more span.  If 
the signal is
only seen at 2KHZ,  I can hear that by ear and dont need the P3.   I 
think VHF
operators are saying the same thing,  they need to look over a larger 
portion of the
band and spot weak signals and move to them,  not narrow to 2KHZ and sit 
there
and tune the radio hoping to find a weak signal,  thats what you do 
without a P3. 
Does the LP Pan also work that poorly that you cannot see weak signals 
30KHZ
away? 
I do notice that with all the P3 sales,  you do not see many LP Pans for 
sale,  so either
people who buy the P3 are just buying it to have another Elecraft 
product,  or they are
keeping both and not sure yet which is the best?   
Most of my operation will be low band,  160 meters, and if I cannot see 
the weak
signals on the band and cover at least 30 KHZ then the P3 is of no use 
at all. 
Bill W4ZV are you seeing the weak signals on 160 that are 20 or 30KHZ away?
Or do you have to narrow the span down to see a signal that is barely 
audible?
160 ops would like to know.
73 Merv K9FD  /  KH7C


> Hi Larry,
>
> It depends on the span.  Unlike some other panadapters, the P3
> automatically reduces the sample rate as you narrow the span, which
> improves the sensitivity.
>
> For example, I have my HP8656B signal generator set to 3640 kHz with the
> amplitude as low as it will go (-127 dBm).  The K3 has the preamp off,
> the attenuator on, and default CW shift and width.  Under those
> conditions I can just barely hear the carrier.  It's weak enough that if
> it were a modulated CW signal I don't think I could copy it.
>
> However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3
> span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder
> and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into
> the noise.
>
> So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of
> the noise.
>
> 73,
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>
> On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 06:03 -0700, Larry K1UO wrote:
>   
>> Bill,
>>
>>I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
>> stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
>> entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
>> IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
>> some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
>> than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
>> far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
>> Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
>> 73
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
>> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
>> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
>> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
>> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
>> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
>>
>> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[samuel ernst-fortin]

It strikes me, when implementing algorithms to compute Periodograms using 
DFT/FFTs, there are tradeoffs in variance and spectral resolution. There are a 
number of factors, including window/FFT length, window function,  amount of 
window overlap, degree of zero-padding, number of estimates  to average, choice 
of normalization factors, etc. Then you've got a lot  of considerations with 
respect to how that spectrogram is displayed on  screen that can influence the 
visual detection problem. We haven't even  addressed computational complexity / 
speed of computation. 


I do  not know how much flexibility the P3 allows for changing a number of  
these parameters, the manual indicates spectral resolution is changed with 
"span", so if everything is automatically selected for the end-user at this  
release of the software, perhaps  some configuration options might be placed 
back into the hands of the user in a subsequent release, including a  guide 
provided to help one understand these tradeoffs in PSD estimation and 
presentation and how to  configure the display for optimal results depending on 
what you want to do. The manual is not very verbose in this regard.

With sampling rate known, and these other parameters chosen, conceptually, the 
software  can report an estimate of the spectral resolution which could be 
theoretically  expected on a popup information window or other.

This is one argument for having an "external",  potentially more "open to 
adjustment" system for analysis of the IF  information, rather than say a P3.

KJ4VPI



From: Alan Bloom 
To: Larry K1UO 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 1:00:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

Hi Larry,

It depends on the span.  Unlike some other panadapters, the P3
automatically reduces the sample rate as you narrow the span, which
improves the sensitivity.

For example, I have my HP8656B signal generator set to 3640 kHz with the
amplitude as low as it will go (-127 dBm).  The K3 has the preamp off,
the attenuator on, and default CW shift and width.  Under those
conditions I can just barely hear the carrier.  It's weak enough that if
it were a modulated CW signal I don't think I could copy it.

However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3
span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder
and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into
the noise.

So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of
the noise.

73,

Alan N1AL


On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 06:03 -0700, Larry K1UO wrote:
> Bill,
> 
>I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
> stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
> entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
> IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
> some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
> than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
> far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
> Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
> 73
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
> 
> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
> 
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Alan Bloom]

Hi Larry,

It depends on the span.  Unlike some other panadapters, the P3
automatically reduces the sample rate as you narrow the span, which
improves the sensitivity.

For example, I have my HP8656B signal generator set to 3640 kHz with the
amplitude as low as it will go (-127 dBm).  The K3 has the preamp off,
the attenuator on, and default CW shift and width.  Under those
conditions I can just barely hear the carrier.  It's weak enough that if
it were a modulated CW signal I don't think I could copy it.

However the carrier is clearly visible on the waterfall if I set the P3
span to 2 kHz.  As I increase the span the signal gradually gets harder
and harder to see.  Above about 30 kHz or so the signal disappears into
the noise.

So that's the trick.  Narrow the span to make those signals pop out of
the noise.

73,

Alan N1AL


On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 06:03 -0700, Larry K1UO wrote:
> Bill,
> 
>I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
> stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
> entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
> IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
> some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
> than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
> far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
> Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
> 73
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
> 
> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
> 
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Bill Davis Jr]

Hello all -- K0AWU here 

I am reading this thread with great interest.  I apologize to those that have 
seen similar messages from me on this subject in the past. I had SO HOPED that 
with such a large number of P3s now in the field I would have seen reports on 
weak sig detection from some of the EME or weak sig VHF/UHF/Microwave operators.

 I use the Softrock SDR based panadapter (with buffer amp) for detection of 
weak microwave signals. Seeing sigs too weak to work allows optimizing 
beam/dish headings and elevations often enough to allow communications. Power 
SDR here does NOT allow that but VE3NA's Rocky slow waterfall does 
exceptionally well with "beaconing" CW signal detection and display. Rocky 
however requires more CPU time than PSDR.

Normal operations here will be with the displayed bandwidth to me around 40Khz 
or more. (96Khz sample rate)

 Rocky allows me to see 2 or 3 db below what I can hear and 5db or so too weak 
to work, plus I don't have to be concerned about having the K3 on frequency. As 
you can imagine, at 10,368.100 MHz or even 1296.100 MHz we aren't always 
starting within 500Hz of ON frequency. The ability to read the sig strength 
relative to the noise floor is of great value in that it allows real sig levels 
to be recorded and exchanged.

Google my call for links to my SDR/K3 webpages if you are interested in more 
info.

 I too have a shack computer, 5yr old Dell DIM4700 Pentium 4 at 2.8GHz with 3GB 
of RAM. I can run the SDR1000, Rocky or PSDR for K3 panadapter and logging 
programs plus several other applications with few issues. So I had a shack 
computer already. (M Audio Delta 44 sound card)

I am not promoting an SDR based panadapter over a P3. I just am VERY interested 
if the P3 can see deeper Somewhere someone knows or is finding out  
RIGHT??

73  Bill  K0AWU  En37ed

> 
> Bill,
> 
>I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
> stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
> entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
> IF Mod was factory installed.  This has happened more than once.  For
> some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
> than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
> far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
> Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
> 73
> 
> (K0AWU email follows)
> 
> 
>   I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
> 
> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
> 

  
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[shwhafen]

Corrections: beacons at 14100 Mhz, not 14000 Mhz,,,Steve W6HPK

- Original Message -
From: shwha...@comcast.net
To: Larry K1UO 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:22:46 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

Hi Larry & all; I have not used Lp Pan so I cannot really make a comparison, 
but I have found that if the P3 ref level is set really low just at the noise 
level and if the span is set to  narrow amounts that indeed very low level sigs 
can be seen.  For example I hve been "seeing"  the 20 meter beacon sigs that I 
can not read, but just barely hear. If I were scanning the ham bands, I don't 
think I would hear most of thse sigs...Of course, I was not noting on the P3 
all the beacon sigs[this is at 14,000 Mhz]..My antenna is just a lowly 
screwdriver attached to my car portI think my ears are fine, even after 61 
yrs of ham radio...ok for weak sig detection...73 Steve, W6HPK

- Original Message -
From: Larry K1UO 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:03:01 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters


Bill,

   I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
IF Mod was factory installed.This has happened more than once.  For
some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
73




  I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??

73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[shwhafen]

Hi Larry & all; I have not used Lp Pan so I cannot really make a comparison, 
but I have found that if the P3 ref level is set really low just at the noise 
level and if the span is set to  narrow amounts that indeed very low level sigs 
can be seen.  For example I hve been "seeing"  the 20 meter beacon sigs that I 
can not read, but just barely hear. If I were scanning the ham bands, I don't 
think I would hear most of thse sigs...Of course, I was not noting on the P3 
all the beacon sigs[this is at 14,000 Mhz]..My antenna is just a lowly 
screwdriver attached to my car portI think my ears are fine, even after 61 
yrs of ham radio...ok for weak sig detection...73 Steve, W6HPK

- Original Message -
From: Larry K1UO 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:03:01 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters


Bill,

   I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
IF Mod was factory installed.This has happened more than once.  For
some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
73




  I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??

73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Larry K1UO]

Bill,

   I can tell you that just last night, on 160 meters, I copied 2 very weak
stations perfectly Q5 that did not show on the P3 waterfall.  Now, Its
entirely possible its my adjustment skills but I dont think so.  Yes..the K3
IF Mod was factory installed. This has happened more than once.  For
some reason I was expecting the P3 to show these very weak signals better
than I could find them myself while tuning but no amount of adjustment so
far will do this.  I may be expecting too much?
Just so you know what anothers experience has been so far.
73




  I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a
long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak
signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got
my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection
with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out
there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??

73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[ab2tc]

Hi,

I have been using LP-PAN for a couple of years. In spite of not owning a P3
I think I know enough about its capabilities to comment about the
comparison. The P3 definitely has better sensitivity. LP-PAN is currently
quite poor in that respect, but Larry is working (feverishly I hope) to
bring out a preamp kit that should match the the P3 in sensitivity. P3 also
has in edge in very small spans. I don't see this as very important since
for in-band analysis I can get superior results by running a spectrum
analysis program on the K3 line output. Lastly of course the P3 does not
need a PC and PowerSDR software. The latest version of PowerSDR is much
improved and installation instructions are also better. I don't even think
about operating on the bands without a PC these days. I need it for logging,
for cluster spots and yes, for LP-PAN. If I operate outside of my shack,
like in the back yard on nice summer days or from Grandma's farm, I lug a
laptop. I am not knocking the P3, but I don't feel a big urge to switch.
Some people have both and that may make sense, too.

AB2TC - Knut


Don Wilhelm-4 wrote:
> 
>   Bill,
> 
> I cannot say anything about the comparison of weak signals on the 
> waterfall between the two,
> but one great advantage of the P3 is the ability to adjust the span - 
> you can go from observing a 200 kHz chunk of the band (-100 kHz to +100 
> kHz) to a width that will allow you to examine a single signal in detail.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[GW0ETF]

Don,

I'm using a Softrock IF kit (plus Z1B buffer amp) as a panadapter with a
~£275 Samsung NC10 netbook. Initially I was surprised but it works well with
the internal Realtek HD soundcard. 

It runs LP Bridge, PowerSDR/IF and N1MM or Logger23 smoothly; with an extra
LCD monitor this gives me an integrated panadapter/logging system with a low
dollar computer. Maximum span is ~90KHz.

It's my normal mobile pc; I can take it to the shack, plug in a usb lead,
vga lead (if I want to use the LCD monitor), a mic lead and bring it out of
hibernate and I'm in business. Don't normally need the power supply unless
I'm in for a long contest.

73,

Stewart, GW0ETF


Don Cunningham wrote:
> 
> 
> I didn't go the LP Pan or other SDR route as I didn't want to have to buy
> a 
> high dollar computer to do my hamming.  Same reason, among others, that I 
> won't consider the Flex radios.  I want a radio, with knobs, not a
> computer 
> program!!  The cost of the computer needed to do SDR right was about the 
> same as the P3 was initially.
> 73,
> Don, WB5HAK 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Rick Prather]

Bill,

All I can tell you is if I can hear it I can see it!

Rick
K6LE

On 9/13/2010, at 9:01 , Bill Davis Jr wrote:

> 
>  I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a 
> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak 
> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got 
> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection 
> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out 
> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
> 
> 73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Don Wilhelm]

  Bill,

I cannot say anything about the comparison of weak signals on the 
waterfall between the two,
but one great advantage of the P3 is the ability to adjust the span - 
you can go from observing a 200 kHz chunk of the band (-100 kHz to +100 
kHz) to a width that will allow you to examine a single signal in detail.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2010 12:01 AM, Bill Davis Jr wrote:
>I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a 
> long time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak 
> signals at UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got 
> my K3 a year ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection 
> with the P3 after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out 
> there looking for weak weak sigs with a P3??
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Bill Davis Jr]

  I too would like to see details of the improvement over LPan etc. I am a long 
time user of SDR/computer panadapters for use in detecting very weak signals at 
UHF/VHF/microwave. I use a Softrock on the K3 IF port since I got my K3 a year 
ago.  I have yet to see one report regarding weak sig detection with the P3 
after many requests to the initial testers of the P3. ANYONE out there looking 
for weak weak sigs with a P3??

73  Bill K0AWU  EN37ed

---

> From: pmar...@yahoo.com
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:00:52 -0400
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters
> 
>   
> To All,
> 
> Can you please provide comments on the LP Pan versus the P3 Panadapter on the 
> K3.
> 
> The LP Pan seems to have a lot more features compared to the P3 and the cost 
> is so much less.
> 
> I understand that the LP Pan requires a PC but you get a bigger screen when 
> using a PC.
> 
> What makes the P3 better then the LP Pan for the K3, if it is ?
> 
> Thank you

  
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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Don Cunningham]

Paul,
I don't see you getting a lot of comments, so I'll throw in a few cents 
worth, hi.  I bought the P3 for several reasons, but the main one is NOT for 
what it is right now, but what I think it will be over time.  It will have 
VGA output at some time and allow the big screen, and I feel we, as 
operators will have some input into what is on the display.  It will add 
features as we go that I can't even think of right now.

I didn't go the LP Pan or other SDR route as I didn't want to have to buy a 
high dollar computer to do my hamming.  Same reason, among others, that I 
won't consider the Flex radios.  I want a radio, with knobs, not a computer 
program!!  The cost of the computer needed to do SDR right was about the 
same as the P3 was initially.

YMMV, but that's my take.  Elecraft remains responsive to our wants/needs, 
as long as they are reasonable.  I have full confidence I won't regret the 
initial price and price of add-ons as they come.
73,
Don, WB5HAK 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan versus P3 Panadapters

[Wes Stewart]

I don't yet have a P3, but I do use an SDR-IQ as a panadapter.  I used an 
LP-Pan for a little bit before this.

If I had to state one advantage for either of these compared to the LP-Pan it 
would be this:  Neither of them uses PowerSDR.

Wes  N7WS

--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Paul Maruna  wrote:

 
> To All,
> 
> Can you please provide comments on the LP Pan versus the P3
> Panadapter on the K3.
> 
> The LP Pan seems to have a lot more features compared to
> the P3 and the cost is so much less.
> 
> I understand that the LP Pan requires a PC but you get a
> bigger screen when using a PC.
> 
> What makes the P3 better then the LP Pan for the K3, if it
> is ?
> 
> Thank you
>


  
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan and Rocky (was: SDR with a Twist)

[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Linux users might be interested in Quisk, which runs fine with LP-PAN; I've
also provided an interface to the K3 and fldigi.  It uses about 10% of the
CPU on my desktop, which is a few years old.

http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/

There's a Windows port in the works, but not immediately.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan and Rocky (was: SDR with a Twist)

[Larry Phipps]

  Sure, it can be used with any SDR app.

Larry N8LP



On 7/23/2010 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 07:51:39 +0200
> From: Jon K?re Hellan
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP-Pan and Rocky (was:  SDR with a Twist)
> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID:<4c492deb.3010...@acm.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 07/23/2010 01:17 AM, Steve Ellington wrote:
>> >  Gosh I though someone had filed for documents under the Freedom of
>> >  Information Act. But whatever, this sounds like a good scheme. You're 
>> > right
>> >  about PwrSDR being a resource hog. I had to get a dual core cpu just to 
>> > run
>> >  LP Pan smoothly.
> Can Rocky be used with LP-PAN?
>
> Jon LA4RT

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan & K2

[Carl Griebno - KC4SG]

Yup !!  I am also looking for a reply on this.  Looks like the
thing to do if you have a K2 around ..


On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:41:31 -0400, n0jrn  wrote:

> Anybody running LP Pan with your K2???
>
> IF so,   what do you think of it 
>
> I'm considering adding it to the shack and wanted some opinions before
> purchasing.
>
> Thanks & 73:   Jerry  N0JRN
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN and other SDR

[Larry Phipps]

Phil, is this the case for all bands, or just 2m? If it's all bands, 
make sure that the little cable that connects the K3 IF buffer to the 
rear panel connector is seated properly. Also, make sure all the 
applicable modules are enabled in Setup.

Larry N8LP


>
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:25:35 -0400
> From: "Phil LaMarche" 
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN and other SDR
> To: 
> Cc: lp-...@yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID: <56fa9e417074492f951c1e3d263e8...@lamarcheenterpr>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Got my K3 back after having the 144 module installed and all hardware
> updates done.  Works wonderful except for one aspect.  I have several SDR
> platforms to use and in every one, the panadaptor base line is below the
> -140 and I can't see the signals.  Worked fine before.  Any ideas?
>  
> Phil
>  
> Philip LaMarche
>  
> LaMarche Enterprises, Inc
>  
> 727-944-3226
> 727-937-8834 Fax
> 727-510-5038 Cell  
> www.w9dvm.com   
> K3 #1605
>  
> CCA 98-00827
> CRA 1701
> W9DVM
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN and other SDR

[Adam Koczarski]

Make sure you have the correct antenna selected. Also check and see if the
RX antenna is selected by mistake. If you don't have an RX antenna, you get
the symptoms described. DAMHIK :)

Adam
K3ARK

> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-
> boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil LaMarche
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 8:26 AM
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Cc: lp-...@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN and other SDR
> 
> Got my K3 back after having the 144 module installed and all hardware
> updates done.  Works wonderful except for one aspect.  I have several
> SDR
> platforms to use and in every one, the panadaptor base line is below
> the
> -140 and I can't see the signals.  Worked fine before.  Any ideas?
> 
> Phil
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan & Quartet

[Robert Dorchuck]

The LP Pan and Quartet Sound Card have been sold. 
Thanks,
Bob  W6VY
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN Buffer Modification

[Larry Phipps]

Hi Chris. Just a little clarification. The mod only improves overall 
noise figure of a receiver connected to the IF output of the K3, by 
eliminating about 10dB of loss. It does not improve K3 receiver 
performance. The improvement is most noticeable with the K3 preamp OFF. 
When the K3 preamp is ON, the gain distribution limits the degradation 
of the loss that comes after it to a degree.

73,
Larry N8LP



> --
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:18:57 EDT
> From: w3...@aol.com
> Subject: [Elecraft] LP-PAN Buffer Modification
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>  
> Hello:
>  
>  While sniffing around the LP-PAN website _http://www.telepostinc.com/_ 
> (http://www.telepostinc.com/)   I  noticed a mod to the K-3 Buffer Amp that 
> is supposed to improve receiver  performance.  The instruction information 
> states that the mod"is not yet an  approved mod for the K3. Wayne has 
> indicated that it probably will be at some  point."  
>  Can someone tell me if the mod has been approved  or incorporated into 
> production K-3's?  If the mod has been incorporated  into K-3's, what is 
> the starting serial number for incorporation?  
>  Lastly, if someone who has done the mod has made  any before and after 
> measurements on receiver performance, can he or she kindly  publish the 
> results? 
>  Thanks and 73.  Chris Patterson  W3CMP
>
>
>
> --
>   

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-PAN Buffer Modification

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

Is this the mod that improves the LP-PAN performance by giving it a 
slightly higher gain?
I don't think it was supposed to have any effect on the K3 RX 
performance itself.
Leigh/WA5ZNU
>  
> Hello:
>  
>  While sniffing around the LP-PAN website _http://www.telepostinc.com/_ 
> (http://www.telepostinc.com/)   I  noticed a mod to the K-3 Buffer Amp that 
> is supposed to improve receiver  performance.  The instruction information 
> states that the mod"is not yet an  approved mod for the K3. Wayne has 
> indicated that it probably will be at some  point."  
>  Can someone tell me if the mod has been approved  or incorporated into 
> production K-3's?  If the mod has been incorporated  into K-3's, what is 
> the starting serial number for incorporation?  
>  Lastly, if someone who has done the mod has made  any before and after 
> measurements on receiver performance, can he or she kindly  publish the 
> results? 
>  Thanks and 73.  Chris Patterson  W3CMP
>
> __

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Brett Howard]

Yea I figured this was possible but I was trying to help solve the issue
in the manner the person was looking to.  And using synergy would allow
one to get the job done with two lesser machines.  The worlds greatest
multi tasker is another computer... ;)

Thanks much Larry...

~Brett

On Sun, 2009-07-26 at 09:42 -0700, N8LP wrote:
> Actually, there a number of folks running multiple instances of
> LP-PAN/PowerSDR, both with two K3s and with a K3 with KRX3. It is not
> terribly difficult if you are computer savvy, and requires a newish PC (duo
> or quad core), but there is nothing in either program which prevents
> multiple instances and nothing that prevents multiple sound cards. LP-Bridge
> even provides the ability to launch two instances of PowerSDR at start-up.
> Check the archives of the LP-PAN User Group for some feedback on this
> process.
> 
> There are some new developments coming with updated versions of PowerSDR for
> panadapter use, and a new LP-Bridge. Things go a little slower in summer
> with vacations, family commitments, etc., but development is definitely
> continuing on several fronts.
> 
> 73,
> Larry N8LP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Tichansky wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I would find a "hybrid" solution more useful, ie. stand-alone or capable 
> > of interfacing w/ a PC.  The current problem I run into now is that 
> > there is no "practical" way to run two LP-PANs (specifically PowerSDR) 
> > on one PC, one for each of two K3s.  I've tested doing so w/ one 
> > instance of PowerSDR in a VMware container, but additional bandwidth 
> > limitations (virtual sound device), delays, et.al. are less than 
> > optimum.  With two stand-alone units, there wouldn't be a particular 
> > PC-related limitation, but then "point-and-click" may be lost.  Though, 
> > as I understand it, there were plans to use a "tuning" knob on the front 
> > panel with push capability to jump to K3 to the freq. were the on-screen 
> > marker is located.
> > 
> > Eric NO3M
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[N8LP]

Actually, there a number of folks running multiple instances of
LP-PAN/PowerSDR, both with two K3s and with a K3 with KRX3. It is not
terribly difficult if you are computer savvy, and requires a newish PC (duo
or quad core), but there is nothing in either program which prevents
multiple instances and nothing that prevents multiple sound cards. LP-Bridge
even provides the ability to launch two instances of PowerSDR at start-up.
Check the archives of the LP-PAN User Group for some feedback on this
process.

There are some new developments coming with updated versions of PowerSDR for
panadapter use, and a new LP-Bridge. Things go a little slower in summer
with vacations, family commitments, etc., but development is definitely
continuing on several fronts.

73,
Larry N8LP




Eric Tichansky wrote:
> 
> 
> I would find a "hybrid" solution more useful, ie. stand-alone or capable 
> of interfacing w/ a PC.  The current problem I run into now is that 
> there is no "practical" way to run two LP-PANs (specifically PowerSDR) 
> on one PC, one for each of two K3s.  I've tested doing so w/ one 
> instance of PowerSDR in a VMware container, but additional bandwidth 
> limitations (virtual sound device), delays, et.al. are less than 
> optimum.  With two stand-alone units, there wouldn't be a particular 
> PC-related limitation, but then "point-and-click" may be lost.  Though, 
> as I understand it, there were plans to use a "tuning" knob on the front 
> panel with push capability to jump to K3 to the freq. were the on-screen 
> marker is located.
> 
> Eric NO3M
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Brett Howard]

Here is one way to pull off what you want...  Use 2 PC's and 2 LP-PAN's
with your 2 K3's and then user Synergy to tie the two PCs together.  I
use this at work.  I have two monitors and two PC's (one running linux
and the other running windows) and I'm able to share one keyboard and
mouse between the two computers.  I can move my mouse from one monitor
to the other and which ever computer has the mouse cursor on the screen
is the one that gets the keyboard focus.  Its kinda complicated to
explain but if you see it in action it works like a single computer with
two displays except for the fact that there is a different computer
running each monitor.  They can both be windows boxes if you want to do
it that way and you would for running 2 LP Pan's.  You're of course
going to need two sound cards too...

~Brett

On Sat, 2009-07-25 at 16:26 -0400, E. Tichansky wrote:
> Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> > I'd be happier with a computer-based solution if the software ONLY gave you
> > the panoramic display. I want a standalone display that I can use alongside
> > the software of my choice but although I certainly understand the reasoning
> > of those who want one that will work without a PC I personally don't mind if
> > it is a standalone application. I can always buy a second monitor to display
> > it on if I want to. What I don't want or need is a whole screenful of
> > PowerSDR which was designed to be the front end to a fully computer
> > controlled radio not a "simple" panadapter.
> I would find a "hybrid" solution more useful, ie. stand-alone or capable 
> of interfacing w/ a PC.  The current problem I run into now is that 
> there is no "practical" way to run two LP-PANs (specifically PowerSDR) 
> on one PC, one for each of two K3s.  I've tested doing so w/ one 
> instance of PowerSDR in a VMware container, but additional bandwidth 
> limitations (virtual sound device), delays, et.al. are less than 
> optimum.  With two stand-alone units, there wouldn't be a particular 
> PC-related limitation, but then "point-and-click" may be lost.  Though, 
> as I understand it, there were plans to use a "tuning" knob on the front 
> panel with push capability to jump to K3 to the freq. were the on-screen 
> marker is located.
> 
> The Elecraft panadapter could take a couple directions as far as PC 
> integration.  1) Provide I/Q outputs to interface w/ the PC's soundcard, 
> or 2) Have a built-in USB sound device (ie. similar to some Microham 
> devices).  The latter would certainly increase costs, but would 
> eliminate the need to go out and purchase a high-end card; maybe include 
> it as an add-on option in the same style as everything else in the K3 realm.
> 
> Anyways, it will be interesting to see the product when it arrives.
> 
> Eric NO3M
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[E. Tichansky]

Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> I'd be happier with a computer-based solution if the software ONLY gave you
> the panoramic display. I want a standalone display that I can use alongside
> the software of my choice but although I certainly understand the reasoning
> of those who want one that will work without a PC I personally don't mind if
> it is a standalone application. I can always buy a second monitor to display
> it on if I want to. What I don't want or need is a whole screenful of
> PowerSDR which was designed to be the front end to a fully computer
> controlled radio not a "simple" panadapter.
I would find a "hybrid" solution more useful, ie. stand-alone or capable 
of interfacing w/ a PC.  The current problem I run into now is that 
there is no "practical" way to run two LP-PANs (specifically PowerSDR) 
on one PC, one for each of two K3s.  I've tested doing so w/ one 
instance of PowerSDR in a VMware container, but additional bandwidth 
limitations (virtual sound device), delays, et.al. are less than 
optimum.  With two stand-alone units, there wouldn't be a particular 
PC-related limitation, but then "point-and-click" may be lost.  Though, 
as I understand it, there were plans to use a "tuning" knob on the front 
panel with push capability to jump to K3 to the freq. were the on-screen 
marker is located.

The Elecraft panadapter could take a couple directions as far as PC 
integration.  1) Provide I/Q outputs to interface w/ the PC's soundcard, 
or 2) Have a built-in USB sound device (ie. similar to some Microham 
devices).  The latter would certainly increase costs, but would 
eliminate the need to go out and purchase a high-end card; maybe include 
it as an add-on option in the same style as everything else in the K3 realm.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see the product when it arrives.

Eric NO3M
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Julian, G4ILO]

Dick Williams-2 wrote:
> 
> Your point is well taken; but in the end what percentage of  amatuers that 
> own a K3 do not have it hooked up to a computer and a logging program; and
> I 
> bet that most amateurs leave their computer on 24/7 and connected to a DX 
> Cluster.
> 

I certainly don't do that. Our electricity bill is high enough as it is, and
besides, leaving stuff switched on when it isn't being used is not a very
responsible use of non-renewable resources.

I'd be happier with a computer-based solution if the software ONLY gave you
the panoramic display. I want a standalone display that I can use alongside
the software of my choice but although I certainly understand the reasoning
of those who want one that will work without a PC I personally don't mind if
it is a standalone application. I can always buy a second monitor to display
it on if I want to. What I don't want or need is a whole screenful of
PowerSDR which was designed to be the front end to a fully computer
controlled radio not a "simple" panadapter.

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/LP-PAN-FOR-SALE-tp3301013p3324766.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click" and other threads (K3)

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

"Lowly" K2, Tom??

For me the jury's still out: my nice analog K2 or the very flexible and
feature-rich digital K3. 

I'll probably never decide, just as I won't bother to decide whether 80 or
40 meters is a better band. They're just different, that's all. They do
different things better. 

As for your suggestion, good point. From the e-mail reflector guidelines on
the Elecraft web site:

4b. When emailing about a specific rig or option, please add the rig/option
name(s) to the first part of your email subject line. (K1, K2, K3,
KX1 etc.) This will be a huge help for those experiencing email overload and
will allow automatic filtering based on subject line.

Examples:

"Subject: [K3] Filter Options"
"Subject: [KX1] How to use ped portable?"
"Subject: [XG2] Wow! Its a big help.

http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm


73,

Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
Just a gentle suggestion from a non-K3 guy.

A while back it was brought up that we'd place the model # of the rig being 
discussed in the subject line of our posts, when applicable.

Like, "K3" when we were talking about that rig, or K1, etc.  Threads of 
general interest would not have any specific identifier.

The purpose was so that people not interested in the thread about a given 
model # could filter it out.

I fully understand that another way to avoid this problem is to buy ALL of 
the Elecraft rigs so we'd have an interest in everything, but some of us 
haven't had taken that route (Yet :)  ).  So I'd respectfully request that 
we go back to that protocol as some have continued.

Thanks

Tom,WB2QDG
(Lowly) K2 #1103 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click" and other threads (K3)

[Tom McCulloch]

Just a gentle suggestion from a non-K3 guy.

A while back it was brought up that we'd place the model # of the rig being 
discussed in the subject line of our posts, when applicable.

Like, "K3" when we were talking about that rig, or K1, etc.  Threads of 
general interest would not have any specific identifier.

The purpose was so that people not interested in the thread about a given 
model # could filter it out.

I fully understand that another way to avoid this problem is to buy ALL of 
the Elecraft rigs so we'd have an interest in everything, but some of us 
haven't had taken that route (Yet :)  ).  So I'd respectfully request that 
we go back to that protocol as some have continued.

Thanks

Tom,WB2QDG
(Lowly) K2 #1103 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[David Woolley]

Brett Howard wrote:
> Because some of us despise being forced to run Windows to use the
> product.  Some of us would also like the tools to continue working

It's quite likely that the cheapest way for Elecraft to implement such a 
product would result in its running Windows, albeit XP embedded, on 
flash.  The next alternative would be Linux.

-- 
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Dick Williams]

Vic,

Your point is well taken; but in the end what percentage of  amatuers that 
own a K3 do not have it hooked up to a computer and a logging program; and I 
bet that most amateurs leave their computer on 24/7 and connected to a DX 
Cluster.

Like Dave (AB7E) who posted a comment,  I am also part of the aforementioned 
group, my computer is on all the time;  thus PowerSDR and LP Bridge are also 
on all the time.  When I turn on the K3, LP-Pan (which is powered by the Aux 
12V out on the K3) turns on, and bingo,  signals appear on the PowerSDR 
screen.If for some reason (like going on vacation) I turn off my 
computer,  when I turn it back on, I just start LP Bridge and that auto 
starts both DXBase and PowerSDR.   Basically one click and one button push 
on the K3 and I am in business.

Actually, I have to admit that it is slightly more complicated than that; 
after I turn on the K3, I have to push the on/off switch on the Green Heron 
Eng rotor box to on.   The Green Heron is plugged into a AC switch that all 
the other assorted and sundry accessories are plugged into, and turning it 
on, powers up the rest of the station.

So, I guess that I have not figured out what all the other "issues" might be 
in having a panadapter run by your computer??Actually I spend more time 
in the summer connecting and disconnecting the coax and rotor cables because 
of the thundrestorms than I do "turning on" the K3 and Green Heron Rotor 
box.

In any case, I am sure that your wish for a stand alone unit will come true. 
The only question is what features and at what cost will the Elecraft unit 
have.  One thing I am sure of is the display will not be of the 17" to 22" 
variity.

One other interesting point that should be brought upis that CW Skimmer 
works very well with LP-Bridge..  Though I have not installed it yet,  I 
have been told that CW Skimmer is  the "cats meow" to the CW contester or 
DXer; and to them, it  is what Viagra is to the "old timers"!It works 
great and allows them to do things they had never done before!

Dick K8ZTT


- Original Message - 
From: "Vic K2VCO" 
To: "Dick Williams" ; "Elecraft Reflector" 

Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"


> Dick Williams wrote:
>
>> Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own 
>> a computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the 
>> hobby were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can 
>> afford a K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a 
>> limb" and say you can afford to purchase a computer.
>>
>> You don't have to be a "computer geek" to install and configure LP-Pan, 
>> LP-Bridge, and Power SDR.
>
> I have (several) computers and I am a 'computer geek'. But I still want a 
> standalone unit.
>
> I want it to come on when the radio does and I don't want to mess around 
> with all of the issues surrounding a computer just to use it.
> -- 
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Brett Howard]

I'd like to have it for field day and sometimes having that sitting there is
easier to find CQers than constantly actively scanning...  Helps ya keep the
fire going if you don't have to be scanning all the time...  The scan
feature works a trick but a panadapter would be nicer.  Also a panadapter
can turn out to be a nice poor man's SpecAn in a pinch.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dave - AB7E
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:58 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN


And you need a panadapter for that?

Dave   AB7E



--Original Mail--
From: "Brett Howard" 


I want my radio to perform like a radio so that I can
take it to the top of a hill and make it work sans computer.  I've
already had a blast taking it up to a few mountain tops and making a
few RTTY contacts sans computer.  Come on thats fun!


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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Tony Fegan VE3QF]

How about a variable rate tuning knob with a built in push switch. I am 
thinking of the tuning system on the old (1970s) Cubic/Swan Astro 150. 
This was a variable rate spring loaded rotary control that speeds up the 
tuning rate as it is turned further clockwise or counter-clockwise from 
the detented center position. It would suit those that do not like extra 
cables and clutter on their desks.

73
Tony Fegan VE3QF

Edward Dickinson, III wrote:
> "...since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to
> QSY, how would that work using a separate display?"
> 
> How about touch screen?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Dave - AB7E]

And you need a panadapter for that?

Dave   AB7E



--Original Mail--
From: "Brett Howard" 


I want my radio to perform like a radio so that I can
take it to the top of a hill and make it work sans computer.  I've
already had a blast taking it up to a few mountain tops and making a
few RTTY contacts sans computer.  Come on thats fun!


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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Grant Youngman]

On Jul 23, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Ken Kopp wrote:

>
> Aptos has my order for the display, what-ever it turns out to be.  
> (:-))
>


So, how did you give Aptos your order, since it isn't on the price  
list yet.  Do I just send an email to Madeline with my private Swiss  
bank account number and instruct her to transfer what she will?  :-)

Grant/NQ5T
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Brett Howard]

Honestly I'm perfectly fine with a computer solution but I want the
same amount of power and flexibility no matter if I'm sitting in front
of Windows or Linux or even Mac for that matter!  I give high praise
to Elecraft for keeping software update utilities for all 3 OSes and
they are all kept up to date!

However all this being said there is already a computer solution which
is no where near as powerful in Linux but its coming along...  Why do
we need yet another of the same thing?  For me an embedded solution
would be where its at.  I'd like to see something with a PXA310 or
similar processor that was essentially a PDA with a specialized wider
shorter display.  Implementing it as a touchscreen would be nice but a
lot of the hams I've known would be way to ham fisted to be able to
operate it and so they'd just complain.  I see good value in adding a
good fast updating display with decent resolution.  Oh and I'm all for
small too!  My eyes still work good!

~Brett

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Dick Williams wrote:
> I'm sure that Elecraft (or any other company) can design and produce just
> about whatever is technologically feasible.   However, the issue boils down
> to at what cost, and then what market is out there to recover the costs.
>
> Yes, it will be great if Elecraft does come out with a Panadapter "add on";
> the last figure I heard was in the $700 to $800 dollar price range.
> However, if one were to start "tacking on" all the features that every K3
> owner feels is a "must have", the price would probably triple.
>
> Now granted,  if you add 2400 or so bucks to the price of the K3, it is
> still considerable less than the piece of junk Icom sells for 12,000 bucks
> (I guess 10,500 with all the discounts).   Personally though,  I don't think
> the majority of K3 owner would want to fork over much more than 700 dollars
> for a panadaptor.    And this is especially true when you can achieve the
> same results (and with a unit that will most likely do considerable more
> than what is in the works at Elecraft) right now for under $300.  A lot of
> the "features" that seem to wanted are already functional or soon will be
> with LP-Pan.
>
> Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own a
> computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the hobby
> were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can afford a
> K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a limb" and say
> you can afford to purchase a computer.
>
> You don't have to be a "computer geek" to install and configure LP-Pan,
> LP-Bridge, and Power SDR.   And if you run into problems, there seems to be
> plenty of help on the LP reflector and my dealings with Larry at Telepost
> leave me with the impression that he is more than willing to take the extra
> step in helping you to get his product up and running.
>
> I have had LP-Pan hooked up to my K3 for about a week and I am really
> impressed with what it does.  Went out and bought a second monitor for the
> computer and I have PowerSDR displayed on it.  Right now the display is 14"
> wide and 7" in height;  I can damn near read it without my glasses!
>
> That is my "two cents worth".
>
> Dick K8ZTT
>
>
>
>
>
>> Julian, G4ILO wrote:
>>
>> I disagree.  I think the folks at Elecraft are capable of  developing
>> the software required to do point and click.
>>
>> In fact I would not purchase one if I couldn't do that.
>>
>> Tom, N5GE
>>>
>>> Maarten van Rossum wrote:
>>>
 I too would like to express my desire for a build-in / stand alone unit
 for
 the K3. One were I can hook up a monitor, a key board and maybe even a
 mouse
 if I wanted too and do all the modes that are available. And also very
 important, it should be more or less plug and play.

 PC's and I don't go very well together and although the LP PAN stuff
 looks
 and sounds very promising, it is way to complicated for me. I am glad
 that
 I
 am able to update my K3 every once in a while. Kudo's to Elecraft for
 making
 it that simple.


>>>
>>> I think all of us find PCs a hassle. I worked with computers all my life
>>> but
>>> there are still times when I want to attack the thing with a 4lb club
>>> hammer.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately for your requirement I think a PC would be the most cost
>>> effective platform to do all that. I think the most we can hope for is
>>> something that is just a panoramic display. The question in my mind is,
>>> since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to
>>> QSY,
>>> how would that work using a separate display? Most people will still be
>>> using a PC for logging etc. Having a separate screen for the display is
>>> not
>>> an issue (in fact it would be a benefit to keep the main screen clear)
>>> but
>>> having a separate screen that your mouse cannot click on doesn't seem
>>> like
>>> an ergonomic ideal to me.
>>>
>>> So I'm guessing that

Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Grant Youngman]

>
> I'm sure Elecraft will make their panadapter as powerful as possible  
> for the
> price -- but it's pretty tough to beat the utility-to-price ratio of  
> a $300
> netbook + $495 SDR-IQ unit -- a

I suspect you expect too much from a $300 netbook thingy.

But isn't it amazing that the price of the computer (even a not- 
netbook)  might be less than the price of the RF head.  How is that  
possible -- with all of those 12AU7 dual triode flip-flops in the  
computer :-)

Grant/NQ5T
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Maarten van Rossum]

After reconsidering I came to the conclusion that I just want to be able to
see a portion of the band I'm on.
Sure, point and click would be nice but if I really want that, I'll go with
the all ready existing panadapter or something like Flexradio.

Yes, I have a PC in my shack and it is used for logging and updating the K3
and surfing on the www, that's it. I don't want it to do anything else. I
just don't get along with those darn things.
When I was young all my friends were starting to get familiar with PC's. My
parents didn't buy one because they thought it was just a hype and it would
blow over. Boy were they wrong. By the time we finally got one all my
friends could do magic with these things (at least in my eyes they could)
and all I could do with it was turning it on and off. I lost interest before
I even got started.
When I got older I got confronted with fact that I couldn't get around
them so I learned how to use then but I never could really enjoy it. I still
don't for that matter.

I'm probably missing out on a whole bunch of stuff but I guess I don't know
exactly what it is that I'm missing and therefore I don't Miss it. (that
sentence can't be wright but I think you know what I mean)

I will now go to "start" and turn off my PC (I know, that's Windows and not
the PC itself) and turn on the K3 to make some Q's.

73, Maarten
PD2R

P.s. just now I wanted to copy/paste this text I just wrote so I could check
the spelling on a online spellchecker. Now the darn thing won't copy/paste
anymore?!?! It is probably something I did and I will figure it out but it
just bugs me. So, I'm sorry for any spelling errors.
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Brett Howard]

Because some of us despise being forced to run Windows to use the
product.  Some of us would also like the tools to continue working
well beyond when they are supported.  If someone quits writing
software to support a particular tool it only takes the next version
of windows to feasibly turn that product into an expensive brick.

Personally I'd be ok with just a bandscope with a nice resolution and
very fast update rate without point and click functionality.  Drop in
some more handy test type features (like Elecraft already has with the
AFV and what not)...

Honestly we already have a perfectly fine computer based solution and
it looks like its slowly getting better Linux support.  Why would we
need another.  I want my radio to perform like a radio so that I can
take it to the top of a hill and make it work sans computer.  I've
already had a blast taking it up to a few mountain tops and making a
few RTTY contacts sans computer.  Come on thats fun!

I'm still one of those guys that thinks an oscilloscope should have
knobs and buttons and no keyboard.  I also think that an oscilloscope
shouldn't take several minutes to boot up!  Some things just aren't
made better by adding a computer.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Dave - AB7E wrote:
>
> I fully agree.  Even more to the point, can anyone explain to me why it is at 
> all important for a panadapter to be standalone, i.e., independent of a 
> computer for either display or function?
>
> 1.  Whether I am contesting or DXing or ragchewing, my computer is always 
> connected to my K3 for logging and other functions (digital modes, memory 
> buffers, etc).  Why would I want to add another user interface in the form of 
> a keyboard or mouse connected directly to the panadapter?
>
> 2.  I guarantee I would be able to upgrade my computer for function or 
> storage capacity more easily than I could the innards of a standalone 
> panadapter.  The more dedicated hardware in the panadapter, the more 
> functionally stagnate it becomes.
>
> 3.  External monitors with MUCH larger screens that would be practical for a 
> standalone panadapter are cheap, as are video cards with dual monitor ports.  
> What's the point of having a wide spectrum capability if the display 
> scrunches it down to VGA dimensions?
>
> 4.  Software that controlled the panadapter from the computer would almost 
> certainly integrate more easily into other software such as logging or rig 
> control programs, compared with firmware residing on the panadapter.
>
>
> So ... why add cost and size in the form of panadapter hardware that can be 
> done better and more cheaply with hardware that already exists?  Are there 
> that many K3 owners out there that use their rig like an FT-101?
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> --Original Mail--
> From: "R. Kevin Stover" 
> To: "N5GE" ,
>    "Elecraft Reflector" 
> Sent: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:27:38 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN
>
> Click with what?
> Plug a mouse/keyboard into the panadapter?
> That's going to be some pretty fancy firmware programming and real
> expensive.
>
> I don't think there's any way for Elecraft to produce a standalone
> panadapter that can compete with the LP-PAN/Sound card/Computer combo
> either performance or price wise.
>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Steve Ellington]

Anti point and clickers..Imagine replacing your computer mouse with two 
knobs and a button. Remember Etch a Sketch? Once you get used to clicking on 
signals with a mouse, going back to a knob would hurt. Sure, You'll get 
there eventually, after you pass through all those other blips and forget 
what you were aiming at!


Steve
N4LQ
n...@carolina.rr.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave - AB7E" 
To: ; ; 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN


>
> I fully agree.  Even more to the point, can anyone explain to me why it is 
> at all important for a panadapter to be standalone, i.e., independent of a 
> computer for either display or function?
>
> 1.  Whether I am contesting or DXing or ragchewing, my computer is always 
> connected to my K3 for logging and other functions (digital modes, memory 
> buffers, etc).  Why would I want to add another user interface in the form 
> of a keyboard or mouse connected directly to the panadapter?
>
> 2.  I guarantee I would be able to upgrade my computer for function or 
> storage capacity more easily than I could the innards of a standalone 
> panadapter.  The more dedicated hardware in the panadapter, the more 
> functionally stagnate it becomes.
>
> 3.  External monitors with MUCH larger screens that would be practical for 
> a standalone panadapter are cheap, as are video cards with dual monitor 
> ports.  What's the point of having a wide spectrum capability if the 
> display scrunches it down to VGA dimensions?
>
> 4.  Software that controlled the panadapter from the computer would almost 
> certainly integrate more easily into other software such as logging or rig 
> control programs, compared with firmware residing on the panadapter.
>
>
> So ... why add cost and size in the form of panadapter hardware that can 
> be done better and more cheaply with hardware that already exists?  Are 
> there that many K3 owners out there that use their rig like an FT-101?
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> --Original Mail--
> From: "R. Kevin Stover" 
> To: "N5GE" ,
>"Elecraft Reflector" 
> Sent: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:27:38 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN
>
> Click with what?
> Plug a mouse/keyboard into the panadapter?
> That's going to be some pretty fancy firmware programming and real
> expensive.
>
> I don't think there's any way for Elecraft to produce a standalone
> panadapter that can compete with the LP-PAN/Sound card/Computer combo
> either performance or price wise.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Paul Christensen]

Dave,

I think what's turning many folks away is the combined complexity of cables, 
temperamental drivers, high-end sound cards, and the need for a reasonably 
competent PC (owing to PowerSDR software).  That's a shame because much of 
these problems are easy to overcome with the SDR-IQ unit.  Only two cables 
are used for connectivity and it's self-powered through the USB cable.  Much 
of the needed DSP processing power is assigned to the SDR-IQ rather than the 
need to depend on PowerSDR or one of its variants that places a high CPU 
demand on the PC when using a high-end sound card.

With the SDR-IQ, I've found my PC's CPU demand is minimal -- to the point 
where I use it with an inexpensive Samsung netbook PC for point & click 
tuning through SpectraVue software.  The K3, netbook, SDR-IQ and two 
cables -- and you're done.   If the SDR-IQ is set up as only a panadpter 
without the need for its internal demods, CPU demand is reduced further.

I'm sure Elecraft will make their panadapter as powerful as possible for the 
price -- but it's pretty tough to beat the utility-to-price ratio of a $300 
netbook + $495 SDR-IQ unit -- and use it for much more than just a 
panadpter.  If the small netbook monitor is not of sufficient size, just 
plug-in a flatscreen LCD monitor of your choice.   For me, I get a powerful 
combination at home with large monitor and between the tiny SDR-IQ and 
netbook, I can quickly take it portable with the K3 in a small Pelican case.

Paul, W9AC

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave - AB7E" 
To: ; 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"


>
> Actually, you can buy a very competent refurbished computer (with 
> warranty), a nice display, and LP-Pan for less than the price Elecraft has 
> projected for the panadapter.  Along with many others I am looking forward 
> to the Elecraft panadapter with great anticipation, but if it doesn't 
> offer performance and flexibility instead of redundant hardware I won't be 
> very impressed.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
>
> ------Original Mail--
> From: "Dick Williams" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:37:41 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"
>
>
> Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own 
> a
> computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the hobby
> were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can afford a
> K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a limb" and 
> say
> you can afford to purchase a computer.
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan vs K3 unit

[Henk Remijn PA5KT]

This all would be nice, but as I want just 1 keyboard and 1 mouse I also
would like to have the possibility to run all my apps on this box.
N1MM
HRD
Several propagation and logging progams.

Etc etc.

Hmmm, this sounds like a complete computer?

I think I keep it with my LP-PAN and spend the money on improvement of
my pc.

What you want depends on what you do and how you work. I do a lot of
contesting on HF and I am interested in weak signal reception on VHF and
higher.
For the contesting I need a complete integration with my logging progam,
point and click. For weak signal a display of the whole IF is nice, but
what I need is simultaneous detection of all the signals I see. And  I
want this info in my  software.
No external PAN adapter for me.

73 Henk PA5KT


rfenab...@gmail.com schreef:
> If, as we are lead to believe that Aptos are going to release a stand alone 
> box to match the K3, I would hope that it will provide a clear choice in such 
> a way that we are able to have our cake and eat it too.
>
> 1. Matching box
> 2. External monitor
> 3. PC interface
> 4. USB mouse support
> 5. 192Khz or better waterfall
> 6. Colour screen
> 7. Point and click
> 8. Auto tracking
> 9. Remote capture and save facility
> 10. Integrated K3 utility onboard
> 11. Visual audio spec-an equal to spectragram etc (not the useless display 
> such as the FTdx-9000 series)
>
> Price including these features will increase the more features are added, but 
> to be worthy of the Elecraft name it needs to be a quality product that 
> enhances the already impressive K3
>
> Maybe this is just a dream, but it sure makes waiting interesting:-)
>
> I would be heading to the bank for one like this if available from Elecraft
>   


-- 
Henk Remijn PA5KT
email: pa...@remijn.net
www: www.remijn.net


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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Dave - AB7E]

Actually, you can buy a very competent refurbished computer (with warranty), a 
nice display, and LP-Pan for less than the price Elecraft has projected for the 
panadapter.  Along with many others I am looking forward to the Elecraft 
panadapter with great anticipation, but if it doesn't offer performance and 
flexibility instead of redundant hardware I won't be very impressed.

73,
Dave   AB7E




--Original Mail--
From: "Dick Williams" 
To: 
Sent: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:37:41 -0600
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"


Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own a 
computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the hobby 
were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can afford a 
K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a limb" and say 
you can afford to purchase a computer.


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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Dave - AB7E]

I fully agree.  Even more to the point, can anyone explain to me why it is at 
all important for a panadapter to be standalone, i.e., independent of a 
computer for either display or function?  

1.  Whether I am contesting or DXing or ragchewing, my computer is always 
connected to my K3 for logging and other functions (digital modes, memory 
buffers, etc).  Why would I want to add another user interface in the form of a 
keyboard or mouse connected directly to the panadapter?

2.  I guarantee I would be able to upgrade my computer for function or storage 
capacity more easily than I could the innards of a standalone panadapter.  The 
more dedicated hardware in the panadapter, the more functionally stagnate it 
becomes.

3.  External monitors with MUCH larger screens that would be practical for a 
standalone panadapter are cheap, as are video cards with dual monitor ports.  
What's the point of having a wide spectrum capability if the display scrunches 
it down to VGA dimensions?

4.  Software that controlled the panadapter from the computer would almost 
certainly integrate more easily into other software such as logging or rig 
control programs, compared with firmware residing on the panadapter.


So ... why add cost and size in the form of panadapter hardware that can be 
done better and more cheaply with hardware that already exists?  Are there that 
many K3 owners out there that use their rig like an FT-101?

73,
Dave   AB7E


--Original Mail--
From: "R. Kevin Stover" 
To: "N5GE" ,
"Elecraft Reflector" 
Sent: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:27:38 -0500
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

Click with what?
Plug a mouse/keyboard into the panadapter?
That's going to be some pretty fancy firmware programming and real 
expensive.

I don't think there's any way for Elecraft to produce a standalone 
panadapter that can compete with the LP-PAN/Sound card/Computer combo 
either performance or price wise.

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Vic K2VCO]

Dick Williams wrote:

> Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own a 
> computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the hobby 
> were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can afford a 
> K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a limb" and say 
> you can afford to purchase a computer.
> 
> You don't have to be a "computer geek" to install and configure LP-Pan, 
> LP-Bridge, and Power SDR.  

I have (several) computers and I am a 'computer geek'. But I still want a 
standalone unit.

I want it to come on when the radio does and I don't want to mess around with 
all of the 
issues surrounding a computer just to use it.
-- 
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Joe Planisky]

Bah.  There are tons of embedded PC boards that essentially offer the  
functionality and I/O of an entire PC on a board the size of a credit  
card. Here's a site that lists a few.

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Articles/Teeny-weeny-Linux-SBCs/

73
--
Joe KB8AP


On Jul 23, 2009, at 9:27 AM, R. Kevin Stover wrote:

> Click with what?
> Plug a mouse/keyboard into the panadapter?
> That's going to be some pretty fancy firmware programming and real
> expensive.
>
> I don't think there's any way for Elecraft to produce a standalone
> panadapter that can compete with the LP-PAN/Sound card/Computer combo
> either performance or price wise.
>
> We'll see if they can prove me wrong.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN and "Point and Click"

[Dick Williams]

I'm sure that Elecraft (or any other company) can design and produce just 
about whatever is technologically feasible.   However, the issue boils down 
to at what cost, and then what market is out there to recover the costs.

Yes, it will be great if Elecraft does come out with a Panadapter "add on"; 
the last figure I heard was in the $700 to $800 dollar price range. 
However, if one were to start "tacking on" all the features that every K3 
owner feels is a "must have", the price would probably triple.

Now granted,  if you add 2400 or so bucks to the price of the K3, it is 
still considerable less than the piece of junk Icom sells for 12,000 bucks 
(I guess 10,500 with all the discounts).   Personally though,  I don't think 
the majority of K3 owner would want to fork over much more than 700 dollars 
for a panadaptor.And this is especially true when you can achieve the 
same results (and with a unit that will most likely do considerable more 
than what is in the works at Elecraft) right now for under $300.  A lot of 
the "features" that seem to wanted are already functional or soon will be 
with LP-Pan.

Yes, you do have to have a computer;  but what ham out there does not own a 
computer (especially amateurs that have found there "niche" in the hobby 
were they want and need the capabilities of the K3)?   If you can afford a 
K3 (and the cost of a add on panadapter), I will "go out on a limb" and say 
you can afford to purchase a computer.

You don't have to be a "computer geek" to install and configure LP-Pan, 
LP-Bridge, and Power SDR.   And if you run into problems, there seems to be 
plenty of help on the LP reflector and my dealings with Larry at Telepost 
leave me with the impression that he is more than willing to take the extra 
step in helping you to get his product up and running.

I have had LP-Pan hooked up to my K3 for about a week and I am really 
impressed with what it does.  Went out and bought a second monitor for the 
computer and I have PowerSDR displayed on it.  Right now the display is 14" 
wide and 7" in height;  I can damn near read it without my glasses!

That is my "two cents worth".

Dick K8ZTT





> Julian, G4ILO wrote:
>
> I disagree.  I think the folks at Elecraft are capable of  developing
> the software required to do point and click.
>
> In fact I would not purchase one if I couldn't do that.
>
> Tom, N5GE
>>
>> Maarten van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>> I too would like to express my desire for a build-in / stand alone unit
>>> for
>>> the K3. One were I can hook up a monitor, a key board and maybe even a
>>> mouse
>>> if I wanted too and do all the modes that are available. And also very
>>> important, it should be more or less plug and play.
>>>
>>> PC's and I don't go very well together and although the LP PAN stuff 
>>> looks
>>> and sounds very promising, it is way to complicated for me. I am glad 
>>> that
>>> I
>>> am able to update my K3 every once in a while. Kudo's to Elecraft for
>>> making
>>> it that simple.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think all of us find PCs a hassle. I worked with computers all my life 
>> but
>> there are still times when I want to attack the thing with a 4lb club
>> hammer.
>>
>> Unfortunately for your requirement I think a PC would be the most cost
>> effective platform to do all that. I think the most we can hope for is
>> something that is just a panoramic display. The question in my mind is,
>> since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to 
>> QSY,
>> how would that work using a separate display? Most people will still be
>> using a PC for logging etc. Having a separate screen for the display is 
>> not
>> an issue (in fact it would be a benefit to keep the main screen clear) 
>> but
>> having a separate screen that your mouse cannot click on doesn't seem 
>> like
>> an ergonomic ideal to me.
>>
>> So I'm guessing that it will just be a passive display like the ones in 
>> the
>> Icom 756 series that you can look at but not click on.
>>
>> -
>> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
>> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
>> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
>> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[R. Kevin Stover]

Click with what?
Plug a mouse/keyboard into the panadapter?
That's going to be some pretty fancy firmware programming and real 
expensive.

I don't think there's any way for Elecraft to produce a standalone 
panadapter that can compete with the LP-PAN/Sound card/Computer combo 
either performance or price wise.

We'll see if they can prove me wrong.

N5GE wrote:
> I disagree.  I think the folks at Elecraft are capable of  developing 
> the software required to do point and click. 
>
> In fact I would not purchase one if I couldn't do that.
>
> Tom, N5GE
>   
-- 
R. Kevin Stover
ACØH

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan vs K3 unit

[Doug Person]

I think having all these features can only be economically implemented 
with an external  computer.

For me, I only wish for a real panoramic display in color with 
adjustable bandwidth.  Having the ability to "see" the band offers such 
a significant advantage that I feel quite blind without it.

Mice, point and click functions, K3 utility on-board, and most of these 
other things require some sort of operating system.  You're basically 
asking for a complete PC built into a K3 style box.

All I want is the ability to see the activity around me on the band I'm 
currently using.

Doug -- K0DXV

rfenab...@gmail.com wrote:
> If, as we are lead to believe that Aptos are going to release a stand alone 
> box to match the K3, I would hope that it will provide a clear choice in such 
> a way that we are able to have our cake and eat it too.
>
> 1. Matching box
> 2. External monitor
> 3. PC interface
> 4. USB mouse support
> 5. 192Khz or better waterfall
> 6. Colour screen
> 7. Point and click
> 8. Auto tracking
> 9. Remote capture and save facility
> 10. Integrated K3 utility onboard
> 11. Visual audio spec-an equal to spectragram etc (not the useless display 
> such as the FTdx-9000 series)
>
> Price including these features will increase the more features are added, but 
> to be worthy of the Elecraft name it needs to be a quality product that 
> enhances the already impressive K3
>
> Maybe this is just a dream, but it sure makes waiting interesting:-)
>
> I would be heading to the bank for one like this if available from Elecraft
>
> Gary
> VK4WT
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
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>   

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[N5GE]

Julian, G4ILO wrote:

I disagree.  I think the folks at Elecraft are capable of  developing 
the software required to do point and click. 

In fact I would not purchase one if I couldn't do that.

Tom, N5GE
>
> Maarten van Rossum wrote:
>   
>> I too would like to express my desire for a build-in / stand alone unit
>> for
>> the K3. One were I can hook up a monitor, a key board and maybe even a
>> mouse
>> if I wanted too and do all the modes that are available. And also very
>> important, it should be more or less plug and play.
>>
>> PC's and I don't go very well together and although the LP PAN stuff looks
>> and sounds very promising, it is way to complicated for me. I am glad that
>> I
>> am able to update my K3 every once in a while. Kudo's to Elecraft for
>> making
>> it that simple.
>>
>> 
>
> I think all of us find PCs a hassle. I worked with computers all my life but
> there are still times when I want to attack the thing with a 4lb club
> hammer.
>
> Unfortunately for your requirement I think a PC would be the most cost
> effective platform to do all that. I think the most we can hope for is
> something that is just a panoramic display. The question in my mind is,
> since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to QSY,
> how would that work using a separate display? Most people will still be
> using a PC for logging etc. Having a separate screen for the display is not
> an issue (in fact it would be a benefit to keep the main screen clear) but
> having a separate screen that your mouse cannot click on doesn't seem like
> an ergonomic ideal to me.
>
> So I'm guessing that it will just be a passive display like the ones in the
> Icom 756 series that you can look at but not click on.
>
> -
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>
>   


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Re: [Elecraft] LP Pan and K3

[Greg - AB7R]

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Edward Dickinson, III]

"...since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to
QSY, how would that work using a separate display?"

How about touch screen?


Best regards,
Dick - KA5KKT

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Re: [Elecraft] LP-Pan and K3

[Maarten van Rossum]

Silence before the storm. I never expected the 144 MHz transverter module
for the K3 but it appeared out of the blue.
Who knows, maybe they are working hard on the new kit as we speak to
surprise us all in the near future... (a guy can dream, can't he?)

Maarten
PD2R

2009/7/23 

> Interesting though how the deafening silence from the hallowed halls of
> Aptos remainsSMB no doubt.
>
> Gary
> VK4WT
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Vic Rosenthal wrote on Thursday, July 23, 2009 at 7:14 AM:

> I too admit that I've watched all of these LPPans go by at attractive 
> prices because -- 
> much as I want a panoramic display -- I am waiting for the Elecraft 
> product. And I also
> hope it will be a standalone device that does not require a computer.

Hi Vic,

It would be a pity if Elecraft's product could only be used to display the 
K3's receiver IF, and could not be tuned to other frequencies and used to 
display transmitter IMD products for example. Perhaps that would make the 
product too expensive.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Julian, G4ILO]

Maarten van Rossum wrote:
> 
> I too would like to express my desire for a build-in / stand alone unit
> for
> the K3. One were I can hook up a monitor, a key board and maybe even a
> mouse
> if I wanted too and do all the modes that are available. And also very
> important, it should be more or less plug and play.
> 
> PC's and I don't go very well together and although the LP PAN stuff looks
> and sounds very promising, it is way to complicated for me. I am glad that
> I
> am able to update my K3 every once in a while. Kudo's to Elecraft for
> making
> it that simple.
> 

I think all of us find PCs a hassle. I worked with computers all my life but
there are still times when I want to attack the thing with a 4lb club
hammer.

Unfortunately for your requirement I think a PC would be the most cost
effective platform to do all that. I think the most we can hope for is
something that is just a panoramic display. The question in my mind is,
since for most people the benefit is being able to point and click to QSY,
how would that work using a separate display? Most people will still be
using a PC for logging etc. Having a separate screen for the display is not
an issue (in fact it would be a benefit to keep the main screen clear) but
having a separate screen that your mouse cannot click on doesn't seem like
an ergonomic ideal to me.

So I'm guessing that it will just be a passive display like the ones in the
Icom 756 series that you can look at but not click on.

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/LP-PAN-FOR-SALE-tp3301013p3308143.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Maarten van Rossum]

You know what, I guess that Steve already knew that the K3's display wasn't
going to be able accommodate a landscape function ;-)

I too would like to express my desire for a build-in / stand alone unit for
the K3. One were I can hook up a monitor, a key board and maybe even a mouse
if I wanted too and do all the modes that are available. And also very
important, it should be more or less plug and play.

PC's and I don't go very well together and although the LP PAN stuff looks
and sounds very promising, it is way to complicated for me. I am glad that I
am able to update my K3 every once in a while. Kudo's to Elecraft for making
it that simple.

Also, for a "wireless" hobby, with LP PAN you sure as hell need a lot off
wires (pun intended ;-))

73, Maarten
PD2R



2009/7/23 Brett Howard 

> I honestly don't believe that the K3 screen has the resolution to be an
> effective bandscope.  But thats just my humble opinion.
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 00:16 -0400, Steve Ellington wrote:
> > Brett:
> > How about this: The scope is already defined in the K3's display. All we
> are
> > waiting for is a firmware update to activate it. I wish!
> > Steve
> > N4LQ
> > n...@carolina.rr.com
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Brett Howard" 
> > To: "Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU" 
> > Cc: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN
> >
> >
> > > On that screen shot is that + and - about 20Khz?  Shouldn't the system
> > > be able to pull off 192Khz total width?  It would also be really slick
> > > if the waterfall was labeled with absolute values rather than relative
> > > ones.
> > >
> > > Honestly the only reason I haven't purchased an LP-PAN is because all
> > > the computers at the house are running Linux.  However I'm also VERY
> > > hopeful that the Elecraft bandscope when it comes out doesn't require a
> > > computer of any kind.
> > >
> > > I'm not certain on my feelings of requiring that the device needs a VGA
> > > monitor.  I really hope that the thing is completely self contained and
> > > even better if it was a box with an LCD of some sort and fits nice
> right
> > > on top of the K3 and looks like it belongs there.
> > >
> > > I guess time will only tell
> > >
> > > ~Brett
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2009-07-22 at 13:27 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU wrote:
> > >> Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user
> > >> interface
> > >> than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as
> well
> > >> some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi,
> which
> > >> is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
> > >>
> > >> http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/
> > >>
> > >> Leigh/WA5ZNU
> > >>
> > >> __
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Brett Howard]

I honestly don't believe that the K3 screen has the resolution to be an
effective bandscope.  But thats just my humble opinion.  

~Brett

On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 00:16 -0400, Steve Ellington wrote:
> Brett:
> How about this: The scope is already defined in the K3's display. All we are 
> waiting for is a firmware update to activate it. I wish!
> Steve
> N4LQ
> n...@carolina.rr.com
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Brett Howard" 
> To: "Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN
> 
> 
> > On that screen shot is that + and - about 20Khz?  Shouldn't the system
> > be able to pull off 192Khz total width?  It would also be really slick
> > if the waterfall was labeled with absolute values rather than relative
> > ones.
> >
> > Honestly the only reason I haven't purchased an LP-PAN is because all
> > the computers at the house are running Linux.  However I'm also VERY
> > hopeful that the Elecraft bandscope when it comes out doesn't require a
> > computer of any kind.
> >
> > I'm not certain on my feelings of requiring that the device needs a VGA
> > monitor.  I really hope that the thing is completely self contained and
> > even better if it was a box with an LCD of some sort and fits nice right
> > on top of the K3 and looks like it belongs there.
> >
> > I guess time will only tell
> >
> > ~Brett
> >
> > On Wed, 2009-07-22 at 13:27 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU wrote:
> >> Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user 
> >> interface
> >> than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as well
> >> some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi, which
> >> is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
> >>
> >> http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/
> >>
> >> Leigh/WA5ZNU
> >>
> >> __
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> 

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Vic K2VCO]

Steve Ellington wrote:
> Brett:
> How about this: The scope is already defined in the K3's display. All we are 
> waiting for is a firmware update to activate it. I wish!

I can tell you that this, unfortunately, is impossible. The K3's display isn't 
bit-mapped 
-- it has a fixed set of things that it can display.

I too admit that I've watched all of these LPPans go by at attractive prices 
because -- 
much as I want a panoramic display -- I am waiting for the Elecraft product. 
And I also 
hope it will be a standalone device that does not require a computer.
-- 
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

Brett,
Thanks for pointing it out.  It was an old screen shot.  I updated it to 
a more recent one as the package does provide frequency control.

As for the bandwidth of the display, it's purely a function of the sound 
card.  On Linux, the EMU-0202 sound device supports 44.1 KHz unless it's 
sent a USB command to change sample rate.  I've worked with some other 
Linux folks around the world to help fix this, and the results should be 
coming out in new versions of the Linux "ALSA" sound system soon.  
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to get past 96 KHz.  (The Mac driver for 
the EMU-020 has this same limitation.)

You can use quisk and the LP-PAN with a less expensive sound card such 
as the Griffin iMic or a 48KHz Creative USB product, all in the $40 
range, and get a 48KHz bandwidth view coverage.  If you're a CW or 
digital mode operator, that's pretty much all you need, and it's about 
half the cost of the EMU-0202.

I don't know what Elecraft's plans are, but I believe there's room for 
both standalone display devices and shack computer integrated devices.
Quisk is an option for those of us who have the LP-PAN and use Linux in 
the shack.

Leigh/WA5ZNU
> On that screen shot is that + and - about 20Khz?  Shouldn't the system
> be able to pull off 192Khz total width?  It would also be really slick
> if the waterfall was labeled with absolute values rather than relative
> ones.
>
> Honestly the only reason I haven't purchased an LP-PAN is because all
> the computers at the house are running Linux.  However I'm also VERY
> hopeful that the Elecraft bandscope when it comes out doesn't require a
> computer of any kind.  
>
> I'm not certain on my feelings of requiring that the device needs a VGA
> monitor.  I really hope that the thing is completely self contained and
> even better if it was a box with an LCD of some sort and fits nice right
> on top of the K3 and looks like it belongs there.
>
> I guess time will only tell
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Wed, 2009-07-22 at 13:27 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU wrote:
>   
>> Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user interface
>> than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as well
>> some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi, which
>> is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
>>
>> http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/
>>
>> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Steve Ellington]

Brett:
How about this: The scope is already defined in the K3's display. All we are 
waiting for is a firmware update to activate it. I wish!
Steve
N4LQ
n...@carolina.rr.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Brett Howard" 
To: "Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU" 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN


> On that screen shot is that + and - about 20Khz?  Shouldn't the system
> be able to pull off 192Khz total width?  It would also be really slick
> if the waterfall was labeled with absolute values rather than relative
> ones.
>
> Honestly the only reason I haven't purchased an LP-PAN is because all
> the computers at the house are running Linux.  However I'm also VERY
> hopeful that the Elecraft bandscope when it comes out doesn't require a
> computer of any kind.
>
> I'm not certain on my feelings of requiring that the device needs a VGA
> monitor.  I really hope that the thing is completely self contained and
> even better if it was a box with an LCD of some sort and fits nice right
> on top of the K3 and looks like it belongs there.
>
> I guess time will only tell
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Wed, 2009-07-22 at 13:27 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU wrote:
>> Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user 
>> interface
>> than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as well
>> some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi, which
>> is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
>>
>> http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/
>>
>> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Brett Howard]

On that screen shot is that + and - about 20Khz?  Shouldn't the system
be able to pull off 192Khz total width?  It would also be really slick
if the waterfall was labeled with absolute values rather than relative
ones.

Honestly the only reason I haven't purchased an LP-PAN is because all
the computers at the house are running Linux.  However I'm also VERY
hopeful that the Elecraft bandscope when it comes out doesn't require a
computer of any kind.  

I'm not certain on my feelings of requiring that the device needs a VGA
monitor.  I really hope that the thing is completely self contained and
even better if it was a box with an LCD of some sort and fits nice right
on top of the K3 and looks like it belongs there.

I guess time will only tell

~Brett

On Wed, 2009-07-22 at 13:27 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU wrote:
> Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user interface
> than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as well
> some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi, which
> is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
> 
> http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/
> 
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU]

Linux users can install quisk-lppan-k3.  It's a far simpler user interface
than the PowerSDR software.  We're hoping to port it to Windows as well
some day.  It can control the K3 directly, or work through fldigi, which
is a digimode program that itself runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

http://wa5znu.org/2009/04/quisk-lppan-k3/

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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Re: [Elecraft] LP PAN

[Dick Williams]

Dave,

I purchased a LP-Pan and a E-MU 0202 a few weeks ago and had no problem 
getting either of them working and interfacing DXBase.  I wonder if you have 
given Larry a call at Telepost?

The only minor problem I had was with the PowerSDR software.   For reasons 
only known to the "computer gods",   it would not load correctly and when I 
tried to run it, I would get three or four "fatal error" messages.  I even 
tried to un-install it and then re-install with no luck.

There was an easy fix that involved formating the hard drive and then 
re-installing Windows XP (a "ritual" that should be done once a year 
anyway).  Fortunately,  formattng the hard drive and re-installing XP is 
pretty easy, but time consuming to download and install all the updates and 
programs.  With the fresh install, everything worked the first time.

I did have a couple of "procedural" questions, and a couple of quick calls 
to Larry answered those.

It works really great and well worth the time and expense of installing it.

Dick  K8ZTT



- Original Message - 
From: "N1IX" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:20 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] LP PAN


>I have noticed a lot of LP Panadaapters for sale. I am wondering why.
> Do they work well? I have one but I haven't been able to get it working 
> yet.
>
> Dave N1IX
>
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