Re: phlegmatic Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Why do you think they have changed? I have one from a rescue that was there for being uncontrollable, and my hoof-trimmer says he acts like an Arabian. On Wed, 9/25/13, Michael & Misha wrote: Subject: phlegmatic Fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 3:37 PM This message is from: "Michael & Misha" I like the stories of the quietude of Fjords and I have had so many and bred so many rock solid types but over the last few years most of the Fjords I have encountered are very high energy and reactive. They bolt a lot, and some of them buck and rear with the best. The Fjord horse is my favorite breed, and i would gladly trade two lively but gentle high evaluated big movers for a pokey Fjord of yesteryear. Like the ones you are all talking about. I guess it depends on what you want to use them for but for those of us who love the gentle cart ride or the easy peasy trial ride, the quiet ones rock it! i guess it is about buyer beware and not assuming! Misha of Shota Fjords Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: horse training
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi Debbie, I missed this email some how. Odi loves me to rub his ears like that too. I am having to work on Bam-Bam being comfortable with touching his. That's funny, you carrying the rabbit like a baby. I know how you can hold them like that, but if they get scared and kick, they can really scratch! Clicker training with horses is pretty new, I think. To really appreciate how well it works, you'd just have to try it. The part that makes it works so well is the marker (some people use a click). It lets the horse know exactly what you are rewarding him for, which speeds up training. They don't get it wrong. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Debby Stai wrote: From: Debby Stai Subject: horse training To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:58 PM This message is from: "Debby Stai" Iâve really enjoyed a lot of the read, the different methods, different of opinions. I remember my Lang hanging his head on my shoulder, when he was ill, not well, head on my shoulder, that heavy head, and me rubbing those long âmuleâ ears I teased him about. And he with his eyes closed. I think he and my âmomâ were the only two that enjoyed this. I recall over the years with Lang, getting shots when heâd had a terrible infection in his gut, a few years before I lost him, many shots, given by the vet, and many pills, to save his life. And me rubbing his ears to sooth him.   If any have had a domestic rabbit before, one can lay them in your arms much like youâd hold a baby, and rub their tummies and it sooth them. I had one, was a temporary rabbit. He was passed from family to family when we were stationed in Hawaii. We were lucky to have him for a bit. I remember rocking him to sleep in my arms rubbing his tummy, just like a baby. Forgetting even that he wasnât a baby, while I visited with neighbors. What a good laugh we had about that. My first horse I lost, ruptured intestine, had him at a University vet clinic, he was heavily sedated, but able to stand and his head on my shoulder, having to switch shoulders off and on, his head was so heavy. But talking to him, a familiar voice. I do know that Ynde, had tried to use my shoulder to rub or dry her chin, after taking the bridle off, and that was not allowed. Lang use to love to have his butt scratched, with a rubber curry, and would back me into a corner so had to not allow that. I would take him to the cross ties and curry and curry, and curry. Ynde too loved to be curried. All had their favorite spots. Usually places they could not reach. Iâve never done clicker, just had my own way, a mix up of different methods, different trainers, things that worked for me, threw out the rest. I never liked training that scared the horse. Never liked running a horse until it gave. It seemed to me, too much the horse doing it out of fear. Iâve seen some of the top trainers training horses to load on trailers, lunge lunge lunge, until they run them into the trailer. And the horse sweating and breathing hard. It seemed a lesson learned in fear. I remember watching John Lyons many many years ago, and another trainer that followed his line of training, just use a whip the length to reach the butt, or the hock/back leg. And one stood beside the horse to lead the horse in, if he stopped, then one would tap tap tap, not hit, but just tap. Enough tap to irritate. When the horse lifts the leg, stop, rub, and then tap tap tap. I always kept the horses head facing into the trailer. I think I only had one horse this did not work on. âmomâ she was running away as soon as she saw the trailer. I didnât feed treats, there was hay and treats in their hay bag once they were in.   Sometimes this would take hours when first starting or working with one who had fear, many times one would do it day after day after day. And if theyâd not been hauled for awhile and I planned to haul, then Iâd do it for several days, just to remind. Iâve seen some horse trainers on RFD, running the horses in the roundpen, saddle on them for the first time and then running them. I guess that works for them. Works for some people. Just wasnât my way of doing it. A lot of different ways I suppose. As far as the herd mind of a horse. I guess I never did that with mine. I always kept only those together that got along and separated those that didnât. All had neighbors, horses each side of them. I donât like one being the boss and one being the one bullied. Just seems stressful to them, something for them to worry about. I took that away from them. After all, mine were not in the wilds, on many many acres, out 24/7. Mine were stalled, mine were fed in their stalls, I had runs, I had paddocks. Some will say horses are happier out 24/7, being a âhorseâ. I say to each his own. Mine were happy creatures o
Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger OK I guess it can't be fixed then. --- On Wed, 6/26/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Wednesday, June 26, 2013, 1:22 PM This message is from: Robin Churchill It is not a training issue. Robin Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "...2) Also, context matters. ..." --Gail Thanks Gail. You answered that much better than I could have. "Put a novice on him and he acts like he has no idea what they want him to do. Granted, they may not have much finesse in their aids but trust me, he knows what they want, he just doesn't think he has to do it. So training is not the only thing that goes into getting horses to do or not do what you want, there are other factors involved. IMO, that is."--Robin He is not trained to do what novices want him to do, for whatever reason. Horses do what they know. You know what they know by watching what they do, not by reading their minds. He knows to do one thing when you get on him, and another when the novice gets on him, i.e. it's a training issue. You might be able to train him by reacting to the assumption he is being willfully disobedient, but you can do the same thing if you leave out the assumption of devious thinking on his part, and probably do a better job of it if you look for the real reasons why he does what he does. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Cindy I probably told you, both of mine did that teeth-scrape thing at first, but then they stopped, I don't know why did it at first or why they stopped. Since I had to wear gloves because of the cold anyway, I didn't pay much attention to it; I thought maybe they just couldn't help it, and that's why people say don't give horses treats, but it did seem a little excessive, and not quite accidental, but not really like they were trying to hurt me on purpose either. More an emotional over-reaction thing. But then they stopped, so I don't know what that was about. I was using baby carrots, but switched to cut-up long carrots (can get them cheap in bulk for juicing). That works really well, because I tend to cut them long and skinny. So I can just hold them by one end. Even if they miss by accidental a little bit, they don't get me. I just have to not shove the carrot up their nose by accident. But even if I use little treats if I run out of carrots, use their lips now. I wish I knew what causes them to switch, but all I can figure is time. They seem somewhat jaded by treats now. My dogs got the same way. They still want to work for the click, it still has the same psychological result, but the treat starts seeming like afterthought. I guess even carrots get boring after a while. But I never found anything they liked better, they seem disappointed to repulsed if I use anything else. Hmm I think I'll ask about that on the CS forum. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: NH and CT?? Mouthy? To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 10:06 PM This message is from: Gail Russell I do know of someone who would hold the treat in a pair of plyers. I think it was Marsha Jo Hanna, who may still be on this list. The horse found that his teeth got knocked if he tried to grab a treat from the plyers without being careful. My apologies for assuming you had little experience. I actually do find that Clinton Anderson's methods work, but I do prefer to give the horse a less harsh experience by clicking and treating when the horse gets something right. Gail his message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti <> It's not always easy to fix. Again, I totally realize that somebody else could do better -- or at least different -- than I did; but this situation was not easy for me to fix. Yes, I did work with protected contact. Yes, I did use the click-for-turning-your-head-away lessons. Often he would bite me as he was taking the treat from my hand. So I would click him for whatever good behavior and hold out the treat for him. (And, yes, I do know about proper treat delivery.) He would put his lips in my hand, then bear down, taking the treat and a bit of skin at the same time, then snatch his head and the treat back. Yikes! Then I tried treating him only with a bucket; but it was just too impractical Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: [Bulk] Re: head on Shoulder
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I'm so glad it doesn't mean something negative. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, ruth bushnell wrote: From: ruth bushnell Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: head on Shoulder To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 3:40 PM This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > I once had a dressage trainer present when he did that and she started having tears in her eyes. I asked her what's wrong and she said to me that Sam moved her to the core with his obvious love for me. > Ellen. > THANKS for sharing that story, Ellen. Sure made me feel good to think of what a wonderful home he has with you. Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yes I'm sure you do. It's hard though, for a person new to horses. A person could easily mess it up, I think. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy? To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 8:53 AM This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 24, 2013, at 4:24, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > "You have to actually learn how to do CT," You know what, this is true for NH training also. Unless you actually make an investment of money, time, & effort, to learn the ins & outs of let's say CA' s methods, you will never understand it, the theory behind it & what it can accomplish with a horse. I have the materials, & understand what is involved in clicker training. One person in her materials shows how she trained a miniature horse to be a seeing eye horse for the blind, very impressive. I Also have Shawna K.'s book & have read it. But I have decided to use the "Method" in training my horses after studying all of these materials. I use a small amount of CT incorporated with the Method. Because like Lori, I use it to speed up a horses learning. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: head on Shoulder
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger :) That brings tears to my eyes. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Frederick Pack wrote: From: Frederick Pack Subject: Re: head on Shoulder To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 3:51 PM This message is from: Frederick Pack I have had many times, since I lost my wife, where I stopped in the middle of a pasturedaydreaming and reminiscing (and feeling blue)...when from behind, one of my gals would come up quietly...give me a kiss and lay their great heads on my shoulder.ever so gently. What a great comfort.unconditional love given from earned trust. Fred On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Ellen Barry wrote: > This message is from: Ellen Barry > > > My gelding Sam (Bushwhacker's Mister Tea) will rest his head on my > shoulder very frequently. I will caress his jaws when he does that and he > will fall asleep with his head resting on my shoulder. > He will also lay his head in my arms for me to cradle his head and will > fall asleep like that too. > I think it's just a gesture of affection and trust, not of dominance. > I once had a dressage trainer present when he did that and she started > having tears in her eyes. I asked her what's wrong and she said to me that > Sam moved her to the core with his obvious love for me. > Ellen. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 1:20 PM, owner-fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com(fjordhorse-digest) wrote: > > >> When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your > shoulder, is > >> that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate? Mine does that a > lot. A > >> fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't > >> escalate beyond that. He has tried to control me in the past, but he > has > >> gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little > residual > >> bit of that, or just trying to be friendly. > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l > > > -- Fred Pack Packs Peak Stables Wilkeson, WA Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Fjord head on a shoulder?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I don't know for sure. I may have reinforced it when asking him to "be still" and stand by my side. If his head was above my shoulder at some point, he may have thought that's what I was going for. He always over-does everything he learns. He doesn't go back one step, he goes back 10, etc. I just wondered if that was a known horse or fjord behavior. He is fine with being touched all over the nose and lips. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Linda Lottie wrote: From: Linda Lottie Subject: Fjord head on a shoulder? To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Cc: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:15 PM This message is from: Linda Lottie Fjord head on your shoulder? Did you ask him to put it there? If so, your choice. Did he choose to put it there? I personally would not allow that. My comfort level with my personal space is VERY critical with all of my horses. And, as I get older I find I'm even more aware of it. I just don't like any nonsense or verging on "getting in my way". With fjords, appys, a mini and two mini donkeys all know my rules. They adore me (I feed them...LOL) and I spend lots of time hanging out with them in their turnouts w/o halters. I give good scratches and smooches but I do NOT like being clunked in the head or body by any of them!!! And, they know it!!! Guests are also encouraged to pet my horses on the neckbut of course they want to touch the face. Touch my fjord mares mouth? Might see teeth! LOL. She gets no treats by mouth as she becomes pushy and snotty when there are none. Live and learn:))) JMHO Linda in steamy NW WI Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:56 AM, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > :) When I said horses were much smarter than I ever knew, maybe it's because > I started with a fjord and a mule. > > Yes I'm sure all trainers aren't bad. But there are just so many horror > stories, it seems like a big risk. > > When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your shoulder, is > that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate? Mine does that a lot. A > fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't > escalate beyond that. He has tried to control me in the past, but he has > gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little residual > bit of that, or just trying to be friendly. > > --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC > wrote: > > > From: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC > Subject: RE: Personalities & Intelligence > To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" > Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 9:18 AM > > > This message is from: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC > > > > In my years of working with the Fjords, I've found them to be ridiculously > smart. Each horse has it's own personality which changes how they will learn, > but have not found a dumb one yet. :) > > In our training program, we start babies at Day 1! They are handled and > handled and handled. We have 4 foals this year (including a tall, white stud > colt if anyone's interested...) that are now between 3-7 weeks. They lead, > they walk by your side (mostly) and stop when asked. They hold their feet > nicely for the farrier - which they've all seen now - and have had the > clippers run over them. They will stand cautiously on a brown tarp. > > As for our adults, we're working them building muscle as well as dressage. I > have 2 that we are planning on taking to the Libby evaluations and even > though > they've only begun riding training here in the last few weeks, they have > already gained their w/t/c, collection and leads. We do "muscle building > work" > and then we do "training", and yes, I do believe that those can be separated. > In training, they are learning something new every other day (in addition to > their former work) and when they get it correct, their lesson is done. Then > we > give them a day to think about it. We've had ZERO issues and so far, only > forward moving with 3 of our mares that we're training for this season. > > For those who have said they don't want to send their horses out, I agree to > a > point. There are many fabulous Fjord trainers who will take care of your baby > just like you would - and give them some smarts to take home for you as well. > > Take your time, be patient and love them. They will reward you greatly. > > Corinne Logan > Willows Edge Farm, LLC > Boise, Idaho > 208-629-1438 / 425-770-0243 > www.willowsedgefarm.com > https://www.facebook.com/WillowsEdgeFarmIdaho > > Important FjordHorse List
Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger People who train wild animals with any method are idiotic, IMO. No comparison of a horse to a killer whale. Yes CT let them train dangerous wild animals, because it is so effective, but that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy? To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 10:17 AM This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:53, Me Kint wrote: > "You have to actually learn how to do CT," Remember Sea World uses CT. Highly skilled, knowledgeable professionals that work with their subjects consistently on a daily basis & a performer was killed by one of the killer whales. There also had been some previous dangerous incidents. I don't know if it was the same whale each time. Last year, we went to SeaWorld again in Calif. with grandsons & the performers are no longer in the water with the killer whales as they had been years ago! Horses can be dangerous. Even our cold blooded, laid back Fjords can react with lightning speed. Remember, of all domesticated animals, horses have the fastest reaction time (this includes Fjords)...some of us have personally experienced this. Because of my over 30 years of having horses & being very safety conscious, when NH came on the scene along with CT, I decided to use CA method because he is safety first & educates you of all the ins & outs of horsemanship & reading horse behavior, all to keep me safer & to be a more effective handler of my horses. I never stop learning. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Belligerent rider
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I wasn't saying they aren't intelligent and can't figure things out. It's like not putting bad labels on kids and then treating them differently because of that. Of course kids are intelligent, but if they are crabby or lazy or belligerent, it's not really "their fault", because there is a reason even they don't know that is causing it. If you can figure out the reason, then you can deal with the behavior more effectively, rather than just assumiing it's out of some devious motivation on their part. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: Belligerent rider To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:07 PM This message is from: Robin Churchill I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct. People think they are not smart because they don't speak our language. The real problem is that we don't always understand theirs. We really have no idea what they do or don't think or feel. My husband who is a big, tough analytical, unemotional surgeon always says it is people who are the morons who think animals are not intelligent, don't have emotions, etc. I think it is clear that they love certain people or their animal friends, they grieve over losses, they sometimes do things just for the fun of it. They remember people, places and other animals years later. One evening, I had put out hay for the two fjords I had at the time, and went to open the gate to let them in. The mare sprinted forward in true fjord fashion hurrying to get to the hay. The gelding just stopped while I was closing the gate and I thought to myself "what is he doing, she is going to eat all the hay" When I walked up beside him, he fell in step with me and then I knew that what he was doing was waiting for me. I have a gelding now that is the smartest horse I've ever met because I think he understands what you say to him in a more complex way than just one word commands or praise. One evening I was in the feed barn behind the main barn getting the food buckets. Most horses I know are going to follow whoever has the food, not turn and go in the opposite direction if they are told to. I said to this horse with the buckets in my hand, "go to your stall and I'll bring your food". He turned immediately away from the direction I was going with the food and went to his stall and waited for me to come around the other way and dump his food. Now he's conditioned to do it when I tell him, but the first time I told him, I think he understood what I said. My other fjord is not smart in that way. You can dump his food in the bucket and he'll come in the stall, not look in his bucket and come to the stall door and look at me and I have to go over and show him his food is in the bucket. On the other hand, he is smart enough to know to stay in the shade when it's hot, something the other two horses often fail to do. I think as humans we frequently underestimate an animal's intelligence and ignore the fact that they have emotional lives. I think particularly horses can be really traumatized when they are sold and sent to a different place. We expect them to be carted away and then get to some strange place where they know nobody and immediately settle in and do what they are supposed to and what they have been trained to do. We don't acknowledge or realize that they may be grieving for the loss of their owner/handler and their horse friends. There was an article in the past year in the USDF connection (Dec 2012/Jan 2013) about this that is well worth reading because I think it can give some insight into how long it can take for a horse to settle in and bond to a new owner. That article really hit home with me because I had a similar experience when I got my latest fjord. He seemed nothing like the horse I went to look at, so much so that I actually wanted to send him back. I have now said at least a hundred times that I am so glad I didn't because he has turned out to be super. He is friendly, engaging and very steady and also the under saddle work is relatively easy for him. I think he was very bonded to the person who sold him to me and he was completely upset and overwhelmed when he got here because it was totally different. It took about 3 or 4 weeks for him to start to bond to me and actually quite a bit longer than that before he would actually work willingly for me. But, once he decided that I was ok, he really demonstrated a better work ethic than my other fjord. Horses also know the difference between when they are sent to a new owner and when they are just moved someplace else. Levi who had kind of flipped out when he g
RE: Personalities & Intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger :) When I said horses were much smarter than I ever knew, maybe it's because I started with a fjord and a mule. Yes I'm sure all trainers aren't bad. But there are just so many horror stories, it seems like a big risk. When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your shoulder, is that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate? Mine does that a lot. A fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't escalate beyond that. He has tried to control me in the past, but he has gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little residual bit of that, or just trying to be friendly. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC wrote: From: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC Subject: RE: Personalities & Intelligence To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 9:18 AM This message is from: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC In my years of working with the Fjords, I've found them to be ridiculously smart. Each horse has it's own personality which changes how they will learn, but have not found a dumb one yet. :) In our training program, we start babies at Day 1! They are handled and handled and handled. We have 4 foals this year (including a tall, white stud colt if anyone's interested...) that are now between 3-7 weeks. They lead, they walk by your side (mostly) and stop when asked. They hold their feet nicely for the farrier - which they've all seen now - and have had the clippers run over them. They will stand cautiously on a brown tarp. As for our adults, we're working them building muscle as well as dressage. I have 2 that we are planning on taking to the Libby evaluations and even though they've only begun riding training here in the last few weeks, they have already gained their w/t/c, collection and leads. We do "muscle building work" and then we do "training", and yes, I do believe that those can be separated. In training, they are learning something new every other day (in addition to their former work) and when they get it correct, their lesson is done. Then we give them a day to think about it. We've had ZERO issues and so far, only forward moving with 3 of our mares that we're training for this season. For those who have said they don't want to send their horses out, I agree to a point. There are many fabulous Fjord trainers who will take care of your baby just like you would - and give them some smarts to take home for you as well. Take your time, be patient and love them. They will reward you greatly. Corinne Logan Willows Edge Farm, LLC Boise, Idaho 208-629-1438 / 425-770-0243 www.willowsedgefarm.com https://www.facebook.com/WillowsEdgeFarmIdaho Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I know. You have to actually learn how to do CT, which most people won't do, because it is gospel that you don't feed horses by hand. But somehow I can do it, and a lot of other people can. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy? To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:48 AM This message is from: Robin Churchill I have the same problem. I cannot feed any of my horses by hand if I don' t want them to start mouthing everything and eventually nipping. This includes the warmblood. All their treats go in their feed buckets or outside feed pans. Robin Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I've been doing CT since I met my fjord last August. --- On Sun, 6/23/13, divingduoandcor...@comcast.net wrote: From: divingduoandcor...@comcast.net Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy? To: "fjordhorse" Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 11:43 PM This message is from: divingduoandcor...@comcast.net I am a former dressage/ct person in my mid 50s.  My trainer/friend is 60 and use to train and show all kinds of western disciplines. I think he agreed to help me (he does it on the side, more for fun) because he was curious about Soph.  (and maybe he felt sorry for me moving to the barn with a serious shoulder injury and then surgery).  My mare is very smart...she learns things very quickly and sometimes appears to be frustrated (or embarrassed, really ) when corrected.  Seriously, the look on her face is interesting...we do not usually need to correct very "hard" in the first place .   My trainer is very calm and has never worked with a fjord before but adores her...we both are enjoying the process.  We do not ride with spurs or whips (which I always used to carry) and she is amazingly light in her response to aids. He thinks she can learn flying lead changes soon!  I just wanted to canter without my arms being pulled from their sockets LOL. That is where we started 18 months ago. In a year she has become an ace trail horse...often leading horses much larger than herself.  (that's what I told my husband I was going to do - just trails  haha)  When we started training (I couldn't ride for months) I was there every ride possible.   I was not going to tolerate any kind of heavy or harsh correction.  I really lucked out.  We are very like-minded even though we come from different backgrounds. Sorry to ramble but the point being...I don't have much experience in clicker training but have seen some amazing examples...there was a video of someone working with a rescue mule going into a shower stall for the first time (wow), etc.  BUT...I cannot feed Soph by hand or she turns into a starving pirannha !!  I have lost pulls on vests, coats, actual pockets  and almost a cell phone she stole out of my pocket.  Almost lost some skin.  She seems to be back to being curious but not putting everything in her mouth.  I basically subscribe to trying to reward by release of "pressure". Obviously not all things work well every time for every horse... but given the love of snacks that seems to be an issue with alot of fjords... I would not think that would be a good approach.? Just curious ... Beth, Bob, the Corgis and the Fjord - Original Message - From: "Robin Churchill" To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:58:57 PM Subject: NH and CT This message is from: Robin Churchill I have done a little NH and by no means am I any expert but I thought that it was helpful in gaining the respect of the horse. I also have played around with clicker training both with horses and dogs. Magnus caught onto it in about 15 sec, Levi not so much. I think it takes a lot of patience and it is difficult to get the timing right. I think it is much easier with dogs but am no expert at that either. I just find that I don't really need it because I have taught mine pretty much anything I wanted them to know so far by just talking to them, rewarding them when appropriate, etc. The stuff I see people teaching with CT my horses already know. That is not to say that if I wanted them to do something that they didn't seem to be catching onto that I wouldn't be willing to try it again but I just find it difficult and time-consuming. � Robin Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Obviously NH trains horses, but not for the reasons that the people who sell their particular training methods say they do. People like reasons, it sells better than, "Just do this." There was a study published recently where they used remote-control toy cars to train horses, mimicking NH, and it worked. So unless horses can see toy cars as their herd leader, that's not what's going on. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Disposition/intelligence To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:51 AM This message is from: Gail Russell > All that stuff about being "herd leader" is mythology "I guess you have never seen horses interact" I think she was referring to the idea that horses see humans as their herd leader...as a sort of replacement for the horse leader. I agree that there is no evidence that the horse sees someone who does NH with it as a replacement for a horse. In order to say that, one needs to be able to read a horse's mind. Relationship counselors working in the human context usually advise one not to read the mind of one's partner, as mistakes can be made, and the wrong assumptions made about the partner's thoughts may well not be helpful. It is relevant to look at what happens when natural horsemanship is practiced, as inis the horse no longer rearing, screaming, bolting, etc after he/she has been exposed to the natural horsemanship training? As BF Skinner said, it is more accurate to view the horse's mind as an opaque black box and assume you cannot read it. That way, one can focus on what actually happens when one interacts with the horse. Gail Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I've never seen them riding on each other. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence To: "Fjord List" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:03 AM This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 23, 2013, at 17:34, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > All that stuff about being "herd leader" is mythology I guess you have never seen horses interact Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I know. --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Kim Manzoni wrote: From: Kim Manzoni Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:46 AM This message is from: Kim Manzoni We definitely have a herd leader here. I see the hierarchy at work every day with my 5 horses. I imagine the only way to not see herd leadership at work is if you keep your horses in individual paddocks. My husband definitely is herd leader over his horse (who is our herd leader) when he steps into the pasture. We practice The Method which is Clinton Anderson's NH training. It has completely changed our horses into willing partners and they dont expect treats to be handed to them for it. While I have checked out CT, I never really cared for it because I dont think I want my horses to see me as a treat vending machine. : ( Kim in MD On Jun 23, 2013, at 17:34, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > All that stuff about being "herd leader" is mythology Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Horses know people aren't horses, and I don't think you would want your horse to treat you like another horse. "Respect" is another word that has no meaning when applied to animals. The behavior is either trained, or it isn't. Herd leaders do not make other horses do the things that people make them do. All that stuff about being "herd leader" is mythology that has nothing to do with what is actually going on. It works, there is a reason it works (horses are easy to threaten), and then there is they stuff people make up about why it works.  All that left-brain, right-brain stuff, dominance, respect etc.; it's all pseudo-scientific gobbledy-gook. Ppeople can't separate what empirically works from the mythology made up about why it works. Just like other mythologies. --- On Sun, 6/23/13, Kimberley Manzoni wrote: From: Kimberley Manzoni Subject: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence To: "fjordhorse angus.mystery.com" Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 5:46 PM This message is from: Kimberley Manzoni I don't think NH training presents you as a predator to a prey animal. If it does, you are not understanding it. NH training should present you as a herd leader to your horse and earn his respect and trust. IMHO. -kim Original Message Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence From: Rovena Kessinger To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com CC: This message is from: Rovena Kessinger After the bad things I've heard about horses being sent places, I am never going to do that. I've had mine since last fall, and our relationship is still changing.� They are not like dogs, who can love you completely in about 5 seconds.� It takes them a while. I don't like NH for the reasons you describe.� I don't want them to feel like I am the predator.� That's why I do CT.� I think it takes longer with horses (longer than NH, I mean), but maybe that's because I'm learning as I go.� But it's worth it. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Disposition/intelligence To: "Fjord List" Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:35 PM This message is from: Me Kint Horses are horses, a prey animal.� We are the predators.� To communicate with them horse whisperers have learned to be effective leaders by communicating to horses in "herd language". Because there is so much information out there now to help us to understand & work with horses effectively, horse whisperers aren't so much of a mystery any more.� Yes I agree that horses are very intelligent, some more, some less.���Because of information provided by Such people as Clinton Anderson & others, people are realizing how smart horses are.� But they have to be smart because they are prey animals.� Horses have preferences, but I don't know how to interpret & don't do so on human terms.� I had a thoroughbred, spirited, that I sent off for training.� He was kept in a stall.� He became depressed & even coliced.� The times I visited him, he would be at the back of his stall, depressed, sulking.� When I finally took him home, I put a halter on him & led him to where my trailer was parked.! ���The minute he saw the trailer he started dancing & surged into the trailer. The ride home was 3 hrs instead of 1 1/4 hrs due to bad traffic.� He traveled beautifully quiet.� When we got home & I turned him out on 15 acres, he reared up, hopped 4 hops like the Lipizzaner stallions do.� He was jubilant/happy to be home.� He had never done that before.� Another incidentI had a quarter horse type Appy that a trainer borrowed for a while to use as a lesson horse. When I finally brought the horse home, he wouldn't "speak" to me for 2 weeks.� Can't explain it, but it was his body language.� I decided to not loan him out again after that.� my horses are turned out on 15 acres all day, kept in a stall with an attached pen at night, they are not happy when living in a stall 24/7. I had a German highly certified trainer, for whom I have a great deal of respect, tell me that it takes 2 years for a horse to settle in to a new home >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING� OR FORWARDING THIS� EMAIL. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Animal Smarts.................
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yes. And with a Carlos Castenada quote. :) Something he got from a dream, I'm sure. Lucid dreaming and clicker training have been the most fun and interesting things I have ever learned. I was trying to think of a way to combine the two, clicker train myself to lucid dream more, but haven't got it figured out yet. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: Animal Smarts. To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:44 PM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I agree with Robin's statement and the type of thinking - the animals are not 'intelligent' almost had me walking out of my job several years ago. One of my fellow co-workers - an attorney that graduated from Exeter, no less, said something in passing about the "stupid ducks." I said, ducks aren't stupid, they are only being ducks - that's all they know how to do. You can't judge intelligent from only the human's view. This escalated into a - "you're-an- idiot-and-I'm not," argument and I threatened to walk away from trying to reason with him. We could not agree on any common ground for either argument. The outcome, and I've run across this type of thinking before, is that there are some folks who believe animals have lower intelligence than humans, and some that believe that they have an equal or higher intelligence. Yes, we have the technology, but great apes don't have to communicate by using their thumbs! (Sorry. I had to put this in!) Geese are able to fly south without having to use a giant fuel-burning aircraft. Horses communicate with subtle body languages that most humans don't pick up. Each animal on the planet is not stupid by reason of what they are, and we, as humans, should not place judgment upon them. Here is quote from Carlos Castenada "Self-importance is another thing that must be dropped, just like personal history. As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders; all you see is yourself apart from everything else. It doesn't matter what you say to a plant. You can just as well make up words; what's important is the feeling of liking it, and treating it as an equal. So, all in all, the plants and ourselves are even. Neither we nor they are more or less important." To me, this says it all. I'm open for criticism Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Robin Churchill I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger --- On Sun, 6/23/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 6:27 PM This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 23, 2013, at 15:46, Kimberley Manzoni wrote: > "NH training should present you as a herd leader to your horse and earn his respect and trust." The whole point behind NH training is for you to learn & understand how NOT to be a predator but a herd leader. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Disposition/intelligence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger After the bad things I've heard about horses being sent places, I am never going to do that. I've had mine since last fall, and our relationship is still changing. They are not like dogs, who can love you completely in about 5 seconds. It takes them a while. I don't like NH for the reasons you describe. I don't want them to feel like I am the predator. That's why I do CT. I think it takes longer with horses (longer than NH, I mean), but maybe that's because I'm learning as I go. But it's worth it. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Disposition/intelligence To: "Fjord List" Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:35 PM This message is from: Me Kint Horses are horses, a prey animal. We are the predators. To communicate with them horse whisperers have learned to be effective leaders by communicating to horses in "herd language". Because there is so much information out there now to help us to understand & work with horses effectively, horse whisperers aren't so much of a mystery any more. Yes I agree that horses are very intelligent, some more, some less. Because of information provided by Such people as Clinton Anderson & others, people are realizing how smart horses are. But they have to be smart because they are prey animals. Horses have preferences, but I don't know how to interpret & don't do so on human terms. I had a thoroughbred, spirited, that I sent off for training. He was kept in a stall. He became depressed & even coliced. The times I visited him, he would be at the back of his stall, depressed, sulking. When I finally took him home, I put a halter on him & led him to where my trailer was parked.! The minute he saw the trailer he started dancing & surged into the trailer. The ride home was 3 hrs instead of 1 1/4 hrs due to bad traffic. He traveled beautifully quiet. When we got home & I turned him out on 15 acres, he reared up, hopped 4 hops like the Lipizzaner stallions do. He was jubilant/happy to be home. He had never done that before. Another incidentI had a quarter horse type Appy that a trainer borrowed for a while to use as a lesson horse. When I finally brought the horse home, he wouldn't "speak" to me for 2 weeks. Can't explain it, but it was his body language. I decided to not loan him out again after that. my horses are turned out on 15 acres all day, kept in a stall with an attached pen at night, they are not happy when living in a stall 24/7. I had a German highly certified trainer, for whom I have a great deal of respect, tell me that it takes 2 years for a horse to settle in to a new home >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yea it's funny someitmes, some animals seem so smart about some things, but so dumb about others that really seem obvious. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:12 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Cindy said: <> Ro said: <> But wait! I qualified my "not-bright" comment with by human measurements. For example, a horse might feel entrapped, and see a partially-open gate, not nearly big enough for a horse to go through; but he might think, somehow, that if he runs fast enough, he can squeeze through it. That's the kind of "not bright" I'm talking about. I know in "horsey ways," they are far smarter than we are. The problem is that they are obliged to live in human environments -- which takes us back to the original discussion. It is up to the human to keep things safe and sensible for the horse because the horse is not bright in human things. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Belligerent rider
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger If you are responding to me saying that animals can't be stubborn, that doesn't mean that they don't have personalities, or they can't figure things out, or are not intelligent. It just means that they don't choose to do wrong. They don't choose to do right either. They simply do what they know, either due to instinct or training. It doesn't make sense to say an animal is stubborn, or lazy, or any other attribute like that, because that implies the knowledge that they know what they are right from wrong. They don't know that, because they don't have the concept of right and wrong from a human perspective. What they do is what they know. If they don't do something, then they don't know to do it. Anything that an animal does that is "wrong" is a training issue, not that the animal has "chosen to do wrong". It's either the fault of the trainer, or the animal is simply not capable of being trained to do that particular thing. It's never a conscious choice on the part of the animal; it never "knows" what is right, but then "chooses" to do what is wrong. That's why I say it doesn't make sense to say that animals are stubborn, lazy, etc. all the adjectives used to describe people who may know what is right but then choose to do wrong. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Tonja Acker-Richards wrote: From: Tonja Acker-Richards Subject: Belligerent rider To: "Fjord Digest Reply" Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 5:56 PM This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards So lets see: one writer says animals have no personality but humans do. Are we not in fact animals? Isn't personality regardless of species simply the labels/attributions we apply to behaviors and emotional process? Tekla stands up alone on the hill. Is she depressed? Is she happy to be away from that pesky Ike? Is she sulking because Baby got to go to the clinic? If Telka often stands alone on the hill do we label her standoffish? stubborn? free spirited? belligerent? Seems we make a best guess using observed data and try to work with that personality. My Morgan could hear when the fencer was off and would strum the wire with her lip. We could attribute that pretty fairly to intelligence. She was an alpha mare. She was smart and playful. No she could not plot revenge on me when I sold her son. But she could connect no clicking with wire and beyond that to heaven (grass). No doubt in my mind at first Nickie tried every trick in the book to try (short term plan) to unsettle us (run down hill, wipe your through pine boughs, dump in puddle, over jump tiny stick, fake trip, fake drunk (weave out driveway), lay down (sooo embarrassing in halter class) etc. Most fascinating is each trick was played only once! He is coming along great and later we bought his Mom who is clearly the tree from which he fell! Must say we got Nick from nice people who treated him like a spoiled puppy which leads me to the blame the trainer thread: First of all of course good training matters. But we do not (I hope) blame the parent of autistic child for the kid's bad social skills. Why wouldn't horses or lines of horses have these same genetic differences and deficits? I wonder how animals perceive the personality of humans? Somehow they might differentiate the nice one from the mean one. The pushover from the assertive leader. What do they make of Tekla's behavior? I find personality very interesting concept. I must be inquisitive:) Tonja Acker-Richards Pond House Farm Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Cool, thanks! I'll check it out. Maybe she can help with Odi too, he has a strangely shaped head also. He is definitely big around the cheeks but small in the nose. Bam-Bam is kind of big all over, but especially cheeks. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 6:13 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Ro asked: <> (custom made headgear) Here: http://www.halfcircleranch.com/store/pc/home.asp If you call, the nice lady who makes the stuff (Jessica) will talk you through everything. Tell her I recommended her. We've laughed about the strange proportions of Oden's head! I had already ordered a regular horse-sized halter with a draft-sized throatlatch from her. The draft-sized throatlatch fit fine, but the rest of the halter is too big! But her prices are cheap, so I don't mind another try. I just ordered the Indian hackamore halter ( http://www.halfcircleranch.com/store/pc/Indian-Hackamore-Halter-71p157.htm ). We took very careful measurements to get everything right, and I know it's still a bit iffy. I can tell you the rope she uses is soft and nice. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I think they are bright. :) I've been so amazed at how smart they are. Before I was around them very much, I figured they weren't very smart. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 2:26 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti << I personally believe any horse will bolt given the right set of circumstances...I think it is discouraging, particularly to people who are new to fjords to be told everything the horse does is their fault. ...fjords are horses and they do all the same things other horses do and require the same if not more effort, and skill to train. People tend to think they are easier and maybe some of them are, but I think sometimes they require more finesse to train than other breeds because in my opinion, they tend to be pretty smart and more invested in their relationship with the handler.>> I totally agree with Robin's post. Before I got my Fjord, I was into Andalusians. Boy, nowhere does more mythology abound than in that breed! "Andalusians are so gentle that they can all be left stallions. They're so intelligent. So noble. So kind. So willing. They are born balanced on their hindquarters and can do high school work right from the start..." It just goes on and on. Trust me, it isn't true. A horse is a horse. They are complicated, big, prone to panic, not too bright (by human measurements) . . . and, of course, wonderful, adorable, irresistible, mesmerizing, addictive, beautiful . . . (words fail me). They all have good points and bad, good days and bad. But they all require the human to be educated, thinking, and careful. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger It's very hard not to reward the behavior you don't want sometimes. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Teressa wrote: From: Teressa Subject: RE: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 2:52 PM This message is from: "Teressa" Along the lines of Robin's comments, I have a gelding who used to be a bolter. He was a big boy and if he wanted to take control, he would. I am a relative novice horse owner so I don't have years of experience with lots of different horses. But I noticed when a friend was riding him and he would bolt, that he was brought back to the trot and then the walk. Fjords are smart and most like to work but they also like to mess with us humans. I suggested that when she felt the bolt, to turn him, still in the canter, into a 10 meter circle which like a one rein stop slows his pace and then continue with whatever cantering exercise was being done. Once he figured out that the bolt wouldn't get him out of work, he quit doing it. I also think it was his method of getting attention - if he's cantering with someone on his back, he doesn't get petted. That's my gelding - none of my fjords are exactly the same in their disposition - just like none of my schnauzers are. Generally, though, the fjords are affectionate, smart and can figure us out quicker than we figure them out. Often, my reaction to misbehaviors must have seemed like a reward to them. Still happens now. Teressa Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I'm pretty sure it's handling too. Bam-Bam was so head-shy and nervous and ready to run when when I first got him, but now he acts like a puppy when it's just me and him. I just need to get him better with everything else. It's not things he is scared of, but people. Today I had an umbrella, and they were both scared at first, but it only took a few minutes before Bam-Bam was ignoring me opening over his head and all around. Odi the mule wouldn't get close to it when I was opening it up. I think mules are mistreated a lot because they are so stoic. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 11:48 AM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have not heard of Fjords with the issues that have come up with this current thread, but apparently they are out there. Such as; not liking to have their feet handled; kicking when cornered (any horse would do that); unfriendly Fjords, bolting and spooking... I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been around. If I didn't know better and had just read these past few posts, I surely would not want a Fjord. These are not horse issues; they are more than likely caused by people's improper handling of the horses. And in praise of mules; nowadays, the mule people are breeding some outstanding mules - beautiful animals, and when treated and started with kindness and respect, they turn out just fine. I'm not saying you have to be wishy-washy around them, but some of the comments about bad mules also come from improper handling of the animals - the 'Old Mule Skinner' ways. The comment below from Rovena's trimmer about the mules aiming to kill just exacerbates the reputation of these fine animals. So sad. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 You mean about how mules kick? This message is from: Theresa Christiansen Wow! I own both mules and fjords and have for years. I couldn't disagree more with your farrier. > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My > trimmer was very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and > they can aim. They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is > actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule. The mule > always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he > is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk > to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people > he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash > somebody. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger thanks! --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Lori Albrough wrote: From: Lori Albrough Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 6:57 AM This message is from: Lori Albrough On 6/20/13 9:59 PM, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Where are you getting yours? You can order made-to-measure bridles from Brubacher's Harness http://brubachersharness.ca/ They have a form you fill out with all the measurements, colours, options, etc. I have had them make both snaffle and double bridles for riding, and they also specialize in driving equipment. Prices are very reasonable and quality is great. I recommend calling and speaking to Henry Junior or Noah, I don't think they have a way to do this on the website. Toll-Free: 1-866-669-2064 Local: 519-669-2064 Lori -- Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords R.R.#3 Moorefield Ont Canada N0G 2K0 phone: 519-638-5598 email: l...@bluebirdlane.com http://www.bluebirdlane.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Spook etc
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger You mean about how mules kick? --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Theresa Christiansen wrote: From: Theresa Christiansen Subject: Re: Spook etc To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 9:27 PM This message is from: Theresa Christiansen Wow! I own both mules and fjords and have for years. I couldn't disagree more with your farrier. tc On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My trimmer was > very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and they can aim. They > think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is actually a lot more > likely to > hurt somebody than the mule. The mule always knows where his feet are, > never > tries to kick anybody, and he is very friendly to people, and loves for > people > to pet him and talk to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is > scared by people he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely > to > squash somebody. > > --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel wrote: > > > From: Kathleen Spiegel > Subject: Re: Spook etc > To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com > Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 2:12 PM > > > This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel > > > The comment about the filly being bored is probably very true. They will > find ways to amuse themselves. There is a lot to be said for maturity. I > sold two other fjords this spring, both of which were four and five years > old, barely started under saddle. I get a call at least once a week from > the owner, absolutely thrilled to death with them and their progress. She > has taken them slowly and now is able to ride both of them out in the > woods, on roads and her 10 year old daughter will be riding one in the 4th > of July parade. I was reluctant to sell the younger filly - a two year > old - and am glad to have her back. I tried to have him take one of the > older horses but he wanted one he could "start his way". IAll the > youngsters have similar breeding and the same start. > Re mules and watching other horses. I had a farrier that my horses loved > and respected. The mule insisted on going first or her feelings were hurt. > He was trained by the Amish who told him that with the mule, the first > time you do it, let him watch the other horses, process the fact that they > were ok and then they will be fine. I have problems finding farriers who > are not afraid of the mule- she is a catalonian/thoroughbred and stands > about 17 hands tall. After the first session, where he did her last, she > was his buddy forever. > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Rovena Kessinger >wrote: > > > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > > > > From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young > fjord > > by > > itself with a bunch of kids. That sounds like a disaster waiting to > > happen, > > which I guess it was. > > > > --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel wrote: > > > > > > From: Kathleen Spiegel > > Subject: Re: Spook etc > > To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com > > Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM > > > > > > This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel > > > > > > my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord. Self preservation, a > > certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food. > both > > are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than > > the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages. > > > > I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed > the > > most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after > > three months. Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I > found > > out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows > > and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very > > mulelike. Of note, this was his only horse on the place. The mule is > > herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether > > coyote, dog or moose. He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly, > > but she is calming down. > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint wrote: > > > > > This message is from: Me Kint > > > > > > > > > A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in > > their > > > behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would > > > someone e
RE: Crafty
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger That's what I'm trying to say. They don't know something is "bad". They either do what they feel, or what they have been trained to do. They can't control either one of those things. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Crafty To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 5:52 PM This message is from: Gail Russell I would agree. Animals are honestthey act according to their feelings in the moment, not by plotting. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Where are you getting yours? --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 5:48 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti <> I have struggled with headgear for Oden too. He definitely needs a draft-sized throatlatch. His muzzle, though, is a bit smaller than a regular horse sized halter or bridle. Try to get stuff that is handmade where they can customize the size for you. I'm in the middle of such a project right now. (Again.) Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles for fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I get the warmblood size for rope halters, and those fit him. I'll check out Dover, thanks. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Debby Stai wrote: From: Debby Stai Subject: bridles for fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 8:28 PM This message is from: "Debby Stai" I found that Dover had pieces one could buy. And one can get a browband with âblingâ if they like, fancy it up some.   I had luck with the warmblood size, was able to use it for two of them. One used the horse size. These were english dresage bridles.  I know that there are some negative things said or thought about the tighter fitting noseband. I think some use it to prevent ones horse from either tongue hanging out or chopping to much on the bit. I purchased one as it was so nicely padded, even at the chin. One does not have to have it tight, a finger or two I think. And make sure itâs a finger or two below the cheek bone. I do think its good for youngsters to chew on the bit, play with it in their mouths, but you donât want it hanging too low either. Well, just wanted to mention Dover. They are good about taking back the items if you donât like them or they donât fit. Or have been to me. Debby Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Crafty
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I think different animals have different temperaments too, and can figure things out, and I think they are a lot smarter than most people realize. But at the same time, I don't think certain words that describe peoples' bad qualities should be used to describe them. "Stubborn", "belligerent", etc. are due to a failure of training. Some animals might be harder to train than others, but that is always the answer. You can't know for sure why they aren't doing something. Blaming the animal is blaming the wrong one; anything that happens between a domestic animal and a human is always the human's responsibility. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Melinda wrote: From: Melinda Subject: Re: Crafty To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 6:49 PM This message is from: Melinda My dog, when my kids were young and we used to get carry-out French fries and burgers weekly, on one occasion went to the dining room window and barked out at the driveway. We lived deep in the woods so we all trotted over to see who/what was approaching the house - nothing. My dog then hopped up to the table and snuck some French fries while our backs were momentarily turned. Clearly that was a successful plot! I think animals have varying temperaments that make them more or less gentle or aggressive, congenial or belligerent, without implying premeditation or higher powers of mentation. I also think humans are reactive and act from instinct and training, more so the younger and more immature or psychologically unhealthy we are. Soon after I got her, my fjord mare went to a trainer who, unbeknownst to me, was somewhat harsh. She absolutely loved Mirakel, but ever since that time Mirakel has been highly afraid of whips, so I strongly suspect the woman hit her (which I wouldn't condone). I regret I didn't know more to prevent that scenario unfolding, but that's how we learn. Melinda With Mirakel and Norrman In sunny warm Ohio! Sent from my iPad On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Gail Russell wrote: > This message is from: Gail Russell > > > I would agree. Animals are honestthey act according to their feelings in the moment, not by plotting. > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Interesting. That's kind of what I figured out. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Cynthia Madden wrote: From: Cynthia Madden Subject: Mules & Fjords To: "FH-L" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 3:27 PM This message is from: Cynthia Madden When I think of mules & Fjords,I think SMART! I have requently suggested to people in this area of the country to find a mule trainer if there is no Fjord trainer. Avoid at all costs quarter horse trainers, etc. They do not understand a SMART horse (or mule). Both animals are willing and easy to work with (generally) if you treat them with respect and don't try to push them around. It doesn't work. They need to understand what you want and have time to absorb it. . -- Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM cynt...@carriagehorse.com No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses. ~Herman Melville, Redburn. His First Voyage, 1849 Sometimes you are the pigeon. Sometimes you are the statue. - Anon. *() ()* * ~/ ( o o)* * ~/ \\* *~/ (,,)* Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Spook etc
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My trimmer was very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and they can aim. They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule. The mule always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash somebody. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel wrote: From: Kathleen Spiegel Subject: Re: Spook etc To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 2:12 PM This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel The comment about the filly being bored is probably very true. They will find ways to amuse themselves. There is a lot to be said for maturity. I sold two other fjords this spring, both of which were four and five years old, barely started under saddle. I get a call at least once a week from the owner, absolutely thrilled to death with them and their progress. She has taken them slowly and now is able to ride both of them out in the woods, on roads and her 10 year old daughter will be riding one in the 4th of July parade. I was reluctant to sell the younger filly - a two year old - and am glad to have her back. I tried to have him take one of the older horses but he wanted one he could "start his way". IAll the youngsters have similar breeding and the same start. Re mules and watching other horses. I had a farrier that my horses loved and respected. The mule insisted on going first or her feelings were hurt. He was trained by the Amish who told him that with the mule, the first time you do it, let him watch the other horses, process the fact that they were ok and then they will be fine. I have problems finding farriers who are not afraid of the mule- she is a catalonian/thoroughbred and stands about 17 hands tall. After the first session, where he did her last, she was his buddy forever. On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young fjord > by > itself with a bunch of kids. That sounds like a disaster waiting to > happen, > which I guess it was. > > --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel wrote: > > > From: Kathleen Spiegel > Subject: Re: Spook etc > To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com > Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM > > > This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel > > > my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord. Self preservation, a > certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food. both > are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than > the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages. > > I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed the > most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after > three months. Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I found > out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows > and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very > mulelike. Of note, this was his only horse on the place. The mule is > herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether > coyote, dog or moose. He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly, > but she is calming down. > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint wrote: > > > This message is from: Me Kint > > > > > > A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in > their > > behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would > > someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from > the > > variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems > that I > > have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? > What > > similarities do you observe? > > > > From Mary's iPad > > > > PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS > > EMAIL. > > > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L A
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I have been doing all positive reinforcement with him and he has really changed a lot since I got him. He and the mule coming running from the field when I call them and are always happy to be with me and love their training. My hoof-trimmer tried to do some very gentle NH with him and he ran away from her the next time she came. He doesn't like to be pressured to do things, but learns very well if he is rewarded. It's funny you say they are like your chow, because I always think Bam-Bam is like my dog, who is a german shepherd/boxer mix and cannot be handled roughly because he has the potential to be dangerous (actually, he is dangerous, but not to me), and what you say is what both of them is true, they need to be handled gently or it won't work, but they would walk all over me if I let them. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: Mules & Fjords To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:53 PM This message is from: Robin Churchill I have owned 5 different fjords and they were all different. In general, I find them to be more stoic than other horses, and I think developing a trusting relationship with the handler is more important with them. They will do a lot more for you if you are "their person" and they respect you. The ones I have had would not have done well with rough handling. Calm, consistent handling with positive reinforcement but with very definite expectations is what works best with them. In this way they remind me of my chows. Chows don't respond to rough handling but they must have discipline or they will walk all over you. I agree with Mary that the best way to correct them is through work, if they are naughty they get to work harder not in an angry way, just in a matter of fact way and if they are good they may get to quit early. The other important thing is if you need to take it slow in training them, do so but always set things up for a positive result and so that you win (in other words, get the outcome you were looking for) Some people among us are more skilled with horses than others but that doesn't mean that someone who is inexperienced or not as brave cannot be successful, it just may take longer. Robin in SW Florida where it is really hot and miserable and Magnus and Levi are planning on calling the SPCA if I don't let them on vacation until at least October Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Crafty
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Animals act by instinct and training. They are not stubborn, belligerent, or any other negative personality trait. If they don't do what they are supposed to do, their training is lacking. It's as simple as that. Animals are not like people; they don't make complicated decisions and have ulterior motives and all those other things people do. I am not saying they are not smart and cannot figure things out, but these adjectives that imply particular personality traits in people is not accurate of what is really going on. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Tonja Acker-Richards wrote: From: Tonja Acker-Richards Subject: Crafty To: "Fjord Digest Reply" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 10:13 AM This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards I love the word "crafty" used by another poster to describe some like minded fjords. Perfect. Like a valued resource. Way better the my use of the word belligerence. One time I described my horses to a Nordic buddy and she said simply: "Well they are Norwegian". I am too and German. Great combo for a Fjorder. (Yes I make up words too) Tonja Acker-Richards Pond House Farm Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Spook etc
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger >From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young fjord by itself with a bunch of kids. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, which I guess it was. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel wrote: From: Kathleen Spiegel Subject: Re: Spook etc To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord. Self preservation, a certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food. both are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages. I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed the most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after three months. Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I found out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very mulelike. Of note, this was his only horse on the place. The mule is herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether coyote, dog or moose. He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly, but she is calming down. On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint wrote: > This message is from: Me Kint > > > A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their > behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would > someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the > variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I > have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What > similarities do you observe? > > From Mary's iPad > > PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS > EMAIL. > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: [Bulk] Re: Spook etc
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I think that's why mine ended up in a rescue before I got him. He does not respond well to any kind of pressure. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, ruth bushnell wrote: From: ruth bushnell Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: Spook etc To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:28 PM This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their > behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would someone > explain? > From Mary's iPad > I don't have much experience with mule's, but it seems to me that throughout the years it was said many times that both the mule and the Fjord resist pressure the same. Someone mentioned trust, that cannot be emphasized enough.. take time to establish a relationship with your Fjord, before trying to move their furniture around. ha Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I had to get a hoof-trimmer who specializes in hard-to-trim equines to drive two hours to do them. The first guy, he tried to do Odi, who wouldn't let him touch his back feet, and Bam-Bam was watching, and when the guy approached Bam-Bam, he jjust went wild, rearing and trying to get away. This trimmer is very calm and gentle and takes her time, like, hours. Odi is fine with her now, but Bam-Bam still gets nervous. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: RE: Mules & Fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:07 PM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" This is a good point. I have noticed the difference in how my equines act depending on the energy of the farriers. The farrier we have right now is so calm around my horses that he has never even raised his voice - not once! I no longer hear "Quit" or "Stop it" that I heard when I had farriers that took a much longer time to trim my horses. I guess I don't blame them for getting fidgety after have to stand in one spot for about an hour. Our current farrier knows how to hold the horse's feet in a way that is comfortable for them, and he is efficient at his trade. I also believe that our animals pick up on our body signals, without us even being aware of it. Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now. Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in common, I don't know." . Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now. With my two, it's the fjord who constantly demonstrates what he knows and is much easier to teach than the mule. I taught him to "smile" on command, and he won't quit doing it now, and a guy walked up to us and Bam-Bam scared the heck out of him by putting a big smile right in his face, the guy thought he was attacking. But Odi the mule has started lifting his foot offering foot-lifts, like when I was putting some fly-spray on him. I was near his foot, so I guess he thought he should lift it. But other things are so difficult with him. He still will hardly back up for me, except under training circumstances. It's like he figure he doesn't have to do it unless we're specifically working on that. But Bam-Bam backs up really well all the time now. I wouldn't say he is light and easy to move, but he has gotten much better than he used to be. My hoof-trimmer said Bam-Bam acted more like an arabian than a fjord, because he is so hyper-alert and vigilant and reactive. But I think that is because of his background and he doesn't like people, especially ones who "do things" to him. She said the mule was way overly hyper-alert too. But maybe that's how mules are, I don't know. They only act like that when weird things are going on, but she said a lot of horses are not like that, some are much calmer no matter what is going on around them. Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in common, I don't know. . --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: Mules & Fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 11:18 AM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have a mule and Fjords. Mules will do anything for you, but you need to gain their trust first. They will definitely learn to do something if it's in THEIR best interest! For example, I clicker trained our mule to place his foot and keep it on the farrier's hoof stand. It took about two tries and he had it! When the farrier went around to trim his back feet, he raised his front foot in the air! Now, anytime the farrier goes into the mule's stall to trim, he will automatically raise his front foot! Be careful what you train your mules! I find that mules and Fjords are not as easy as other horses to move around using body language. They are a bit more cold blooded in behavior. I find myself having to "shout" at the Fjords when I ask them to do something at liberty on or the longe line. Actually, my mule is easier to move than the Fjords in that respect, however, when they get it and are paying attention, they can be quite light to move. When I work with other types of horses, I have to remember to keep my body language softer and quieter than when I work with the Fjords. The Fjords are very stoic and self-minded. They look out for themselves and that's what some might refer to being stubborn, as it is with mules. That being said, once my mule figures out what I am asking, he will generally go along with my request, but he may have to stop and think about it first, and I have experienced that with some Fjords too. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Me Kint A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What similarities do you observe? Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Spook etc
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I do but I don't think I know enough about horses in general to know how fjords are different than others, or how much more fjords are like mules than other horses. But I've had other people tell me that they are alike too. To me, they seem pretty different. The mule is a minimalist, the fjord over does everything. For example, in teaching to move FQ over, the mule will just tap with his foot near me on the other side and call it good. The fjord over does it to the point where he spins in a complete circle. It's a struggle to teach the mule to back. Even after he does it well in training sessions, he won't do it during other times. The fjord will keep backing way past where he needed to. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Spook etc To: "Fjord List" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 10:13 AM This message is from: Me Kint A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What similarities do you observe? >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Bolting and belligerence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I guess that is a common thing with fjords. A friend of mine (Saskia, I think she is on this list) also has one that was trained too harshly and started bolting away when she came back. Maybe they just can't handle rough training like other horses. --- On Wed, 6/19/13, Lola Lahr wrote: From: Lola Lahr Subject: Re: Bolting and belligerence To: "Fjord List" Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 12:09 PM This message is from: Lola Lahr The gentle, trusting relationship you have with your horse is what it's all about. When I read that your horse had had experience with a tough, experienced trainer, I thought, 'Uh, oh, I'll BET that didn't work." I had some similar experiences with my first. She was "trained up to sell" by a couple of young Western Pleasure/Reiner type people. I've had her for about 10 years now, and to this day, I cannot carry anythng that even resembles a whip, like a fly chaser fern, etc., or she bolts until it is dropped and away from her. It took about 2 years before I could even touch her sides with my leg or she was off and running - she didn't know where she was running to, she just knew that when a leg touched her she needed to go somewhere- fast. She is the best horse ever now. Still fun and crafty, but I love it. They can't be pushed around or punished severely. If something needs to happen it has to be set up so the concrete consequence is self administered. My gelding was taking off (he only had to walk or trot no matter what I tried because he is so darned strong) when being loaded and unloaded at trailer time. He would take off and then turn around and wait for me to come and get him, or even turn around and walk toward me, for another try, it was a fun game- for him .I put a bitted bridle on him, and just held in in a natural leading position. when he took off, he popped himself with the bit. Not harsh, but effective. Keep up the good work, it will be so worth it! BTW: I use Freeform treeless saddles on mine. Lola On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Lol Bam-Bam doesn't do all that bad stuff yet! Maybe I'll get lucky. He's > gotten so sweet. I can totally see what a calm nice good horse he is > going to > be in a few years. > > --- On Wed, 6/19/13, Tonja Acker-Richards wrote: > > > From: Tonja Acker-Richards > Subject: Bolting and belligerence > To: "Fjord Digest Reply" > Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:32 AM > > > This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards > > > I was happy to see someone struggle with a rescue fjord here. Rest assured > even non rescues have issues with belligerence. And bolting. And fake > spooking. And anticipation. And genius devil thinking. And relentless > attempts > to remain alpha. And laying down on the job. And circling on the blacktop. > And > pretending to pee just to rest. And and and.. > My thick necked brilliant Lippitt (old style) Morgan's did it all too. > > Best hope ride ride ride drive drive drive and try natural horsemanship. > Bits > oh yes we like em. Rope halters we like em too. > > Tonja Acker-Richards > Pond House Farm > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Bolting and belligerence
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Lol Bam-Bam doesn't do all that bad stuff yet! Maybe I'll get lucky. He's gotten so sweet. I can totally see what a calm nice good horse he is going to be in a few years. --- On Wed, 6/19/13, Tonja Acker-Richards wrote: From: Tonja Acker-Richards Subject: Bolting and belligerence To: "Fjord Digest Reply" Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:32 AM This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards I was happy to see someone struggle with a rescue fjord here. Rest assured even non rescues have issues with belligerence. And bolting. And fake spooking. And anticipation. And genius devil thinking. And relentless attempts to remain alpha. And laying down on the job. And circling on the blacktop. And pretending to pee just to rest. And and and.. My thick necked brilliant Lippitt (old style) Morgan's did it all too. Best hope ride ride ride drive drive drive and try natural horsemanship. Bits oh yes we like em. Rope halters we like em too. Tonja Acker-Richards Pond House Farm Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles and bits for fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Thanks. I'm going really slow. I'm not in any rush. I don't want to get hurt myself or have him get hurt. I don't care how long it takes; it may take several years. I'm doing a lot of reading about this. I don't have any people in person to help, so I'm doing it myself, but I have gotten a lot of good advice like this and on forums, and I think it's going well. He is a lot different than when I first got him, but still not there yet.  The only person I know who ever tried to ride him used a bit, and he ran away with her. She is a really tough experienced horse person, and she said there was just no way to stop him.   If he gets scared, he is uncontrollable. My hoof trimmer had to go very, very slowly with him, but she specializes in hard-to-trim equines, and he will let his hooves be trimmed now. She didn't think he had ever had his hooves trimmed before.  He pulled people around with a rope halter at the rescue. So a bit wouldn't save me anyway.  It has to be the training and trust.  He is very sensitive. He is not spooky to things, he is very calm with me and doesn't spook at things a lot of horses would spook about, but he is scared of people, and as soon as he detects anything but extremely gentle treatment, he becomes very reactive. Even if a person walks towards him with the "intent" to do something, he gets runs away, or gets very wild if he cannot get away. But if a person doesn't want to do anything to him, he is OK. He always knows the difference. He can sense a person looking at him and know what they have in mind to do with him. That's why he wasn't scared of me, because I didn't know what I was doing, and he knew that. So I just do positive reinforcement training with him, and he likes that. He is much, much better than he was when I got him.  I don't know if how he acts is a fjord trait or not.  A lot of people who do positive reinforcement training ride bitless. .So I have some good examples. But I just can't find one that fits him that I like. I have the same problem with the mule. They both have big heads, but draft sizes are too big. Kind of big around, but not that long.  I'm looking for a trained horse that I can actually ride, and learn what I'm doing before I ride him. But I'd like to get the equipment and get him used to it. --- On Tue, 6/18/13, Debby Stai wrote: From: Debby Stai Subject: bridles and bits for fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 8:06 AM This message is from: "Debby Stai" I know there are some that ride bitless out there. Iâve moved a lot over the years, military life, and never actually saw anyone. Iâd wondered if it were more popular amongst the endurance riders? I do recall a Paso Fino owner using a type of bosal to ride in but it was not the hard rawhide, was a soft leather and her horses were very well trained. Iâd wondered about riding a horse without a bit if one hasnât much knowledge or is in the learning phase. But then I wonder about people using harsh bits and have much experience. We are all different that is true. I would really worry though about a rider on a horse theyâve never really ridden and is new to them period, especially if they are a green rider, one just learning. I only mention this as at some time in all of our lives we were green riders, and I dare say many of us tried our luck on green horses and if we were very lucky and God was indeed watching over us, we came out of it with little scrapes and can look back and say âmy God, how did we surviveâ.   Theres an expression for that, slips my mind. But, knowing what I know today, I believe that green rider, green horse, get thee to a barn for lessons. If one can find someone that has worked with fjords, even better. Especially as they can help with their knowledge about saddles and bridles and bits. Always find a trainer that puts the horse first, not only the comfort in the tack, but the correct training. And do a lot of research, reading, going to local shows, see how trainers work with their horses and their students. See whoâs horses are happy in the work they do. Well taken care of. Look at the horses feet, a good sign of a horse well taken care of is regular hoof trimming done right. Talk to your veterinarian. Talk to farriers. Find good people in your area that can help you. If you come across ones that give you a bad feeling in your stomach, they arenât good to horses, then run. I hope all new riders the best with their new horses, keep it safe for themselves and their horses, and enjoy a lifetime together. Debby Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Sh
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I looked at mine. That's where the clip is, holding the brow band on, but I see I could take that off. That might make it fit. Thanks for the idea. I may not have a Dr. Cook's. I can't remember for sure the brand name, I got it on ebay. It may be a copy or some other brand. --- On Mon, 6/17/13, Lola Lahr wrote: From: Lola Lahr Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 3:18 PM This message is from: Lola Lahr Hmm. I don't remember a metal clip. I just unbuckled the cheek piece from the nose band, and slid the brow band off the cheek and throat latch straps. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Thanks Lola. I guess I ordered the wrong size. I don't see how to take the brow-band off in any case. It has some metal on there that seems like it would be uncomfortable. Maybe that's how you take it off, take that metal clip off of there. I'll have to look at it. --- On Mon, 6/17/13, Lola Lahr wrote: From: Lola Lahr Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 11:32 AM This message is from: Lola Lahr I usually use the largest Dr Cook's without the brow band. I use black elastic pony tail holders (wrapped many times) to keep the cheek piece and throat latch in place instead of the brow band. You can also have a custom brow band made by local tack maker/repairer. Recently, I actually had a bitless bridle made from leather that was designed like the Dr Cook's for a little over $100. It was custom fit for my new mare. I didn't feel like fooling around with ordering and returning and trying to make one work, plus, I needed an additional bridle. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger That saddle looks very interesting. I just don't know about the bridle; I'll have to read some more. There is such a mixture of reviews. Some people say it doesn't release, teaches the horse to put their head up, or something like that. What size is it? I think Bam-Bam must have an extra-large size head. I get the warmblood size for his halters. I think he's kind of big, like 15 hands. What material is it? I don't know if they are all the same thing. I have very little experience with horses and so am learning. Thanks. --- On Mon, 6/17/13, Diana Calder wrote: From: Diana Calder Subject: Re: bridles To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 11:21 AM This message is from: Diana Calder For saddle - we've had good luck with Australian saddles. One was an eBay purchase (maker unknown) that I pretty much got lucky with, fitwise. The other is a Down Under Longreach Endurance<http://www.downunderweb.com/store/Saddles_Aussie_DownUnder.html>. Down Under Saddlery http://www.downunderweb.com recommended a couple of options, based on the withers tracings that I faxed them. They will custom-fit but a standard fit turned out just fine for both my Fjords. We use both a breastcollar and a crupper, just in case, but I don't think either has ever actually had to "earn its keep". We use wool pads from Down Under with the saddles. We have Down Under's wool seat-savers on both saddles. The Longreach gets more use than the no-name because it's a bigger seat size and has been a better fit for both my dad and me in recent years but I could probably comfortably use the other one again. Both are leather but the Longreach is much lighter and easier to handle. The girth on it is different and buckles English-style. I love the security of Aussie saddles - I'm not a great rider by any means but I've never felt in any danger of coming out of the saddle during Donnie's ten-feet-sideways startle when a pheasant flies out of the fencerow into his face - if I'd been in a bareback pad during one of those, I'd have been on the ground. For bitless bridles - I've used a Nurtural Bitless Bridle with both of our Fjords a few times - one of our local carriage club members organized a demo and we bought one when we attended. Donnie went quite well in it during a time when he just wouldn't stop playing with (and getting his tongue over) a bit of any type. Once he got past that little phase, we didn't use the bitless again. We drive more than ride and it wasn't worth the hassle of getting permission to use it in driving classes and we didn't want to use something at home that we couldn't at a show. We just didn't see a big enough difference in bitless versus bitted to make it worthwhile. If you're interested, I'd be willing to sell it - it's basically like-new because it had so little usage (maybe 20-30 times?). On 16 June 2013 19:51, Rovena Kessinger wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > I've been reading the saddle info. How about bridles? I want a bitless > one. > I have one of those cross-over ones that I converted to side-pull, but it > was > too small for my fjord's massive head. Does anybody use any kind of > bitless > bridles that works well and fits? I could just use a rope halter but I've > like to have a leather one. > > I'm not riding him yet. I have a treeless saddle that I think is going to > work. I have a bareback pad but the strap won't reach. > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
bridles
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I've been reading the saddle info. How about bridles? I want a bitless one. I have one of those cross-over ones that I converted to side-pull, but it was too small for my fjord's massive head. Does anybody use any kind of bitless bridles that works well and fits? I could just use a rope halter but I've like to have a leather one. I'm not riding him yet. I have a treeless saddle that I think is going to work. I have a bareback pad but the strap won't reach. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Abrasive Trim clinic Wisconsin/Mich
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger When is this? I would go if I can get away, depending on when it is. --- On Fri, 3/29/13, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: Abrasive Trim clinic Wisconsin/Mich To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Friday, March 29, 2013, 4:14 PM This message is from: Gail Russell See below. Is anyone interested in a barefoot abrasive trimming clinic. Look up Soft Touch hoof care for details about the grinder that is available from Phil, and about abrasivetrimming. It is much easier, but I do find that horses do not like the trimmings hitting their bellies. One needs an upside down applied bareback pad...or something like that. Gail From: abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:42 AM To: abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [abrasivehorsehooftrimming] Re: trim clinic near wisconsin/michigan I would be interested too, and I live in south central Minnesota. Also have another friend in this area that would be too. So that's 2 more. --- In abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com<mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimming%40 yahoogroups.com>, "candy" mailto:forpets@...>> wrote: > > I am wondering if there is anyone who would be willing to get a clinic with Phil going in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ilinois or Minnesota? I would be willing to travel to most of the locations in any of these states if someone could organize it. Thanks candy My private email if needed is > forpets @tds. net > __._,_.___ Reply via web post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abrasivehorsehooftrimming/post;_ylc=X3oDMT JxcWpxbjhtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjgxOTkyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE1NDM4NARtc2d JZAM3NjQ2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM2NDU4MjUyMQ--?act=reply&messageNu m=7646> Reply to sender <mailto:ranchstyl...@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20trim%20clinic%20near%20wiscons in%2Fmichigan> Reply to group <mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20trim%20clin ic%20near%20wisconsin%2Fmichigan> Start a New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abrasivehorsehooftrimming/post;_ylc=X3oDM TJmMGw2MjhkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjgxOTkyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE1NDM4NARzZW MDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjQ1ODI1MjE-> Messages in this topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abrasivehorsehooftrimming/message/7631;_y lc=X3oDMTM1bWEydmwwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjgxOTkyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE1ND M4NARtc2dJZAM3NjQ2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM2NDU4MjUyMQR0cGNJZAM3NjM x> (9) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abrasivehorsehooftrimming;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZn ZwcG5zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjgxOTkyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE1NDM4NARzZWMDdnR sBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzNjQ1ODI1MjE-> [http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDM TJlc2h0MWlvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjgxOTkyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE1NDM4NARzZW MDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTM2NDU4MjUyMQ--> Switch to: Text-Only<mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimming-traditio...@yahoogroups.com?subjec t=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional>, Daily Digest<mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimming-dig...@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email% 20Delivery:%20Digest> * Unsubscribe<mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimming-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com?subj ect=Unsubscribe> * Terms of Use<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> * Send us Feedback <mailto:ygroupsnotificati...@yahoogroups.com?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20re designed%20individual%20mail%20v1> . __,_._,___ Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Feeding the chubbies
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger So much to know. Thanks! --- On Sat, 3/9/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: Feeding the chubbies To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, March 9, 2013, 6:38 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti <> Hi Ro, The current thinking is that stressed-out grass is high in sugar and therefore the worst for horses prone to insulin resistance, laminitis, founder, and just plain chubbiness. Stressed out grass is supposed to be the worst right after a rain when it gets a shot in the arm and sprouts up. <> Spring grass can be a problem. Some people use a grazing muzzle or dry lot (a lot with no green growth). I really don't care for either option. It's hard to know how to give our horses a perfect life. :) Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Feeding the chubbies
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi Cindy. What do you mean about the pasture-- is the pasture not good, the 24/7 not good, or the over-grazed part not good? (Lol you know my difficulties comprehending language since I got into horses. I never understand the subtleties.) Bam-Bam is on snow-covered pasture now, so they aren't eating grass, fed "hay" 24/7 (supplied by facility, I don't know what it is), a small amount of a different kind of "hay" once/ most days that I bring and feedd to my two, and variable quantities of carrots and/or other treats. (I buy at the feed store, just to hopefully give them so variety) I'm a little worried about what's going to happen in the spring, but this is how he lived before I got him too, I mean out in a pasture just eating the grass with other horses, supplemented with hay, so hopefully it will be OK. Oh vitamin and mineral supplements too. I don't know if he is too fat or not, I don't really think so. --- On Sat, 3/9/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Feeding the chubbies To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, March 9, 2013, 2:51 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Those of you who limit your Fjord's feed to keep them from getting obese -- how much do you give them, and what do you give them? Mine gets 20 lbs a day of chaffhaye (which is very low starch/sugar alfalfa) + a couple of handfuls a day of a could-be-fed-free-choice feed (which I use in training) + some supplements. Oh, and plus very overgrazed pasture 24/7 (which I know is not good for IR-prone horses, but it's all I have). He gets the chaffhaye through a slow feeder, but it's still gone faster than I would wish. :( He looks terrific, but he tells me he's starving. What are you doing? Cindy Lots of pictures of his fine self here: https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Bam Bam feet
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Thanks Mary. I've got some CA books around here to read... --- On Thu, 11/29/12, Me Kint wrote: From: Me Kint Subject: Bam Bam feet To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, November 29, 2012, 12:24 PM This message is from: Me Kint "However, when I try to pick up his foot, he either doesn't move it, or he jerks it away and slams it back down." I use a little CT as well as C. Anderson's method..."make the right thing easy & the wrong thing difficult." When you ask nicely & don't get the correct response/effort put Bam Bam to work! Make him HUSTLE move forward backward left & right, then stop, calmly try the feet again. Repeat as many times as necessary. When you get the least little bit of positive response, click ( I changed the click to a cluck with my tongue so i don't have to carry a clicker around & free up both hands, the horses catch on to the change real fast.) & treat, pour on the praise & quit. Repeat the process daily or even twice a day but not immediately following. Give him time to think & absorb between efforts. This method addresses that horses are basically lazy & the right response is easy but the wrong response is a lot of WORK. >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "Be still" is something that I am really working on right now. Yes, "head down" was one of the first things I worked on, and he still offers that as a default behavior, which is good. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Re: Introduction To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:27 PM This message is from: Gail Russell You need to train an opposite "action" as he has gotten the idea that movement is being rewarded. It is tricky to clicker train foot stuff because they get too enthusiastic. I would start rewarding for keeping all "four on the floor." Under various circumstances. Then, train the picking up of the foot and make sure to put it under stimulus control. I have never really gotten down how to have really good stimulus control. Kathy Sdao has a DVD or two on the subject. One place to look at is Clean Run, which is a dog agility training site. They have lots of DVD's on various details of training. All of it is positive reinforcement training. Not because they have a "thing" for it, but because it is the only thing that works to train winning agility dogs. Overall, it sounds like you need more of the training detail. I sympathize. I have had some mishaps training behaviors involving feet. However, these things are fixable. It does sound like you need to do a lot of training of quiet behaviors. Have you worked on "head down?" Gail Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Hello from Canada
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Saskia! You made it! ;-) Saskia has helped me immensely. Her understanding of horses and ability to communicate her knowledge in a usable way to a complete newbie like me is amazing. We are going to ride our fjords together someday. :) --- On Wed, 11/28/12, ron&saskia wrote: From: ron&saskia Subject: Hello from Canada To: fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:53 PM This message is from: "ron&saskia" Hi everyone, I just want to introduce myself. My name is Saskia, I live in Saskatchewan, and I own 2 horses. One is a 7 year old Fjord horse mare, Freya , and the other one is Flicka, a pony mare of almost 9 years old, that looks like a New Foundland pony. I bought Flicka green broke 6 years ago, and sheâs my riding horse since then. Sheâs a sweetheart and very reliable. I bought Freya, my fjord horse untrained. In fact she was never handled. The only thing that was done with her was chasing her into a chute 2 times a year, where she would be tied up so they could shave her mane. She was never touched by a farrier so her feet were very neglected. When I got her, she was a very scared mare, didnât trust people. But I worked almost daily with her and won her trust. It took me 6 months to get her ready for a farrier so he could take care of her (cow) feet. So in a way you can say sheâs a rescue horse. Freya has a bolting problem, developed after I send her to a regular trainer that I thought was a good trainer. She started to bolt during the 5 weeks in training, probably caused by too much pressure and the pain of a bit, and when she came back home, she was changed from a calm horse into this nervous horse that thought she had to run all the time. On our 3rd ride she bolted on me and jumped my wire fence. I fell off and lucky got only hurt a little, Freya was ok. I left her in pasture for 6 weeks after that, then re-trained her with the courses of Leslie Pavlich. Since then she never bolted on me again and I could ride her again in a calm walk and since last summer we are even going into trot without running off. Plus I never put a bit in her mouth again. I ride her in a bitless bridle. We take little steps but thatâs ok. Iâm not in a rush. I just enjoy our journey. I got to this list because of Rovena, who owns a mule and a fjord horse. I think itâs great to have contact with other fjord horse owners and exchange our experiences with our beautiful fluffy equines. Saskia Dockrill Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: picking up feet
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Thanks Debby. That wouldn't be good to see a farrier treating your horse in a way that you knew was uncomfortable. I would think that somebody like that would be more considerate, and not just act like a mechanic working on a machine. Ynde probably got used to your way, and to your husband's way--she had two different habits, depending on the person. Yes, slow and steady, it can be done. :) --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Debby Stai wrote: From: Debby Stai Subject: picking up feet To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 PM This message is from: "Debby Stai" When Iâve had problems with a horse or a pony, even a mini that was scared, very scared (thinking not treated so kindly in his previous life), I would always have someone hold them with the lead rope, never tying. If they are tied and then struggle and feel trapped, I think itâs a concern for them and for me. I always do a âtrâ noise, not sure where I picked it up, itâs a soothing noise I make. I try to do a lot of pick up foot, tap on bottom and put foot down before they take from me. As they get better, and know me better, I expect a bit more, and try to not let them yank the foot or do the pulling with the back foot, trying to stay as close to their body as possible. Always lots of good boy, good girl, rubbing, scratching. I always take notice too, that a new farrier would introduce himself or herself. My Langster was terrible about moving away, sneaky bugger. Ears pinned like he was so bad, but he was not. He was a good boy. Ynde is kind of that way. I find with her, she does not like her foot held tight, and some farriers will put a death grip. I know they have to hold the foot in awkward positions for the horses, and its tough on smaller horses and ponies and as tough on the farrier, getting that leg where he needs it. Iâve had farriers do great jobs, get it done and fast and good and others slow and the horses get grouchy. The last farrier Iâd tried was over 6ft tall, and doing my old mare that was just 13.2 with arthritis, Iâd have to ask him please try to not pull her back legs way out behind her, she had arthritis in her hocks. With most of mine I could just rest their foot on my hand and pick out their feet, and they have the other foot lifted when I got to it. Funny thing is, I had my way, which foot to start with and work around the pony, and husband would do it the opposite, and Ynde is a creature of habit. The minis we have now, were a bit nervous about feet being done, and they have been handled and had their feet done, but I suspect a bit rough treatment. But calm I do it and now they are calm and I do it while they are munching hay. They are better with me than with husband, but I touch the leg and he grabs. Good luck with yours, they will come around, just daily and a bit at a time, even just picking up, patting, go to the next foot. Eventually it will all come natural. Debby in Tx Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I don't think I can read animals' minds, and I sure don't claim to be an expert on horses, but they are not black boxes anymore than other people are. I think that people are more so than animals, being more complex. Some emotions are obvious, some are subtle, but it can be very useful if you know what the emotion is. I think we can safely assume that "fear" is at the top of a horses' strong emotions. That's not really psychoanalysis, lol; it's just common sense, as fellow mammals. I don't know why Bam-Bam kicked me when I turned my attention to somebody else: jealousy, anger, pawing due to frustration, a simple reflex? I don't know why he moves his foot when I touch it--irritation, an attempt at compliance, a simple reflex? But I do know fear when I see it, even in an animal that I am not very familiar with. However, I understand why you are saying that, and I do try not to read too much into anything. I know people in general assume way too many things about why animals are doing what they do. I try to neither anthropomorphize, nor dismiss what any child could tell a scientist about what an animal is feeling. Emotions are universal, coming from a very primitive part of the brain. A lot of time, the exact emotion is somewhat irrelevant; however, if you are doing something counter to a very strong emotion, it helps to realize that, and take it into account. Especially something as basic (and potentially dangerous) as fear in an animal like a horse. Bam-Bam scared was not something that I had experienced before, and it was not fun for either of us. Yes, I have all of Alexandra's stuff, and follow her list. She was nice enough to reply personally to me when I first got the horses and e-mailed her for advice. Very good information; I think that she really uses CT to its potential with horses. A lot of it is just beyond me; so subtle; but it's very beautiful. I'm not going to just simulate drunkenness, I plan to actually get falling-down drunk and ride, so as to expose the horses to every likely situation that they may encounter. Not tonight, however; it's pretty cold, and I don't want to be incapacitated out there, if worse comes to worst. Luckily, I live in Wisconsin, a great state where drunk driving is merely frowned upon, and all those pesky laws about the operation of a vehicle while under the influence have the word "motor", in there somewhere, I think. Kidding! Seriously, I am clumsy, so falling down by them on purpose would probably be a good idea. I was watching Rick Gore acting silly and falling all over and running up waving his arms and going under them and sticking his head between their back legs--I'm sure that's all good. I am going to try to expose them to everything I can in a controlled way, so they will be ready when things are not as controlled. I can't really travel to any conferences about CT. I have young dogs and cats at home who need me. I don't even travel for work conferences anymore. In my experience, conferences are always way more trouble than they are worth, in any case. The learning/dollars is pretty low compared to just reading and talking like this. Lots of good ideas so far here. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell wrote: From: Gail Russell Subject: RE: Re: Introduction To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:37 PM This message is from: Gail Russell Be careful about all the pschoanalysis of why Bam Bam was unable to stand for the farrier. BF Skinner always cautioned that the organism (BAM BAM) should be treated as a "black box." You have no idea of his motivations or what else is going on in his head. It is enough to just accept the fact that he does not know how to deal with this situation, and figure out how to prepare him for picking up his feet in a variety of situations, including with a farrier who approaches in any old manner. I know horse trainers who pretend to be falling down drunks trying to mount their horses.get the horse used to anythingand the truth is that many many horses will eventually have to deal with a falling down drunk person :). I encourage you to buy Alexandra Kurland's books and join her "click that teaches" list. She is a trained behavioral scientist, as are some of the people on her list. Also, consider going to the Clicker Expo or to the Wicked Minds conference in January at Texas State University. GAil ? When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had me hold him and went at his feet.? So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier?started?got close to us.? He didn't rear, but he was jumping all?around and it was hard for me to hold onto.? The farrier was like, OK, no way, and
Fw: CT the mule.....
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Oh, that was Bam-Bam the fjord that waves his foot around, and he is the one I'm having the most trouble with. Odi is older and has been around some, which is good and bad, I guess. Odi doesn't mind too much his front feet being worked with, but I was warned about his back feet at the rescue, and then we had that problem with the farrier. However, he doesn't mind me touchiing them, but I haven't had the nerve to ask him to lift them yet. All in good time...and when I'm wearing a helmet and maybe a hockey-mask. Othewise, Odi is very calm and still all the time when I'm working with him. He never waves his foot at me. He is like a statue, just facing foward without moving even if he's not tied, and lets me put things on him, walk around him, etc. without moving at all. However, I wonder if I could use this idea for Bam-Bam the fjord. I have a hoof-jack (big dreams of doing it myself someday.) I wonder if I brought that and just put it in front of him and waited. He paws a lot, so he would kick it eventually. Do you think I should do that, or CT and shape him from waving his front foot around, or just continue with trying to pick it up by hand? I really haven't tried just doing it by hand very much. (Lol, I just thought of a cute trick: Ask him his name, and teach him to "bam" his foot twice. Possibly not smart however if he wants to "introduce" himself too often, like your mule wanting to shake everybody's hand, lol.) --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: CT the mule. To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:13 PM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" > He does do this thing when I'm not CT fast enough for him where he picks up > his front foot and waves it around. I'm always worried he's going to paw/kick > forward, since he has done that before, but that was under different > circumstances. I wonder if I should CT that to start, since his foot is way > in the air then. I had to laugh when I read this part, because we taught our mule to put his front foot on the farrier's stand by CT. As soon as we got his foot into position, we'd click & treat. He caught on REAL fast! The next time the farrier came out, she crossed in front of the mule, who promptly put his foot out, only he hit the farrier with his leg. I can now ask him to 'shake hands' by pointing at either front foot - he learned that from clicker training too. Now, you have to be careful when you're by the front of the mule if you're not paying attention, because he wants to raise his legs to see if there's anything in it for him. He also is very good about putting his front feet on the farrier's stand. Be careful what you teach mules.. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7743 (20121128) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fw: Introducing My Rescue Fjord
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yay, another rescue fjord! Hi Keslie, I just joined the list too. I also have a four year old gelding from a rescue, named Bam-Bam. I've had him for about two months. I'm so glad Trumann is OK now, and that he has found a good home. Trumann is much further along in his training than Bam-Bam. That is inspiring, that he has come so far. I couldn't see the picture. :( --- On Wed, 11/28/12, keslie_d...@comcast.net wrote: From: keslie_d...@comcast.net Subject: Introducing My Rescue Fjord To: "fjordhorse" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 12:38 PM This message is from: keslie_d...@comcast.net Hello All- A while back Gayle Ware of Field of Dreams asked me to introduce myself, so I hope I am doing this right. My name is Keslie Down and last March, I adopted my four year-old Fjord gelding Trumann (picture attached) from the USPCA in Yamhill, Oregon. Trumann, along with his mother, mother's sister, and a senior Arabian mare, belonged to an animal hoarder who tried to hide them from the authorities for nearly a year before a farmer found them loose, grazing in his field, several miles from their original home. The seizure included the four horses, several turkeys, pigs, goats and chickens. When found, the horses were thin, malnourished, and anemic and their hooves were in terrible shape, but they took to their rescuers immediately and Trumann--who had never seen a trailer (or probably a halter) in his life, hopped right in and went along for the ride in true Fjord fashion. Upon his arrival they discovered that he had partial vision loss in his left eye, possibly due to an injury sustained while in the wild, though he wasn't (and isn't) bothered by it in the least. He became an immediate favorite at the Rescue Barn because of his sweet and accepting (and sometimes mischievous) personality. I have loved and ridden horses most of my life, and after taking lessons with Gayle and falling in love with the Fjord breed, I knew I had to have one of my own. I stumbled upon him in a Craigslist ad, his information squished between two flashy horses. I had been casually looking at other Fjords for a while, but hadn't yet found "the one." I told my husband that it couldn't hurt to just have a look at him--my famous last words! It was love at first sight. His calm, easy going (even for a Fjord) and trusting countenance won me over completely, and before I knew it, I was bringing him home just in time for my 31st birthday. It was a dream come true. The adoption was not without stresses--he was sick just days after we brought him home, runny nose, cough, the works. And, upon our vet's hunch, we tested him for leptospirosis (a bacterial infection caused by wild animal urine that's contaminated drinking water, which can cause blindness, kidney trouble, etc) and discovered that he was mildly positive. This put me into a complete tailspin as we waited to see what the markers in his blood work would do--what if he continued to go blind? I knew I couldn't continue boarding a young and completely blind horse. What could I do? I hated thinking about having to give him up. We waited, continued to rehabilitate him with good nutrition, antibiotics, iron, and LOTS of love, and when his vet check came back clear and healthy (a TRUE miracle), I couldn't wait to get out to the barn to hug everyone who had helped get him back on his feet. Trumann is now going beautifully under saddle, and is constantly learning and surprising us all. We call him the "Little Engine That Could." Gayle says he was an honor student during his training, and I continue to be amazed at his progress, his sound mind, and his gentle heart, and accepting spirit. I couldn't be more in love with this horse! Adopting a rescue horse is not for the faint of heart, and is surely not for everyone, but I can say, knowing what I know now, that I would do it all over again. It was a long road, but well worth the journey. The reward has been an amazing Fjord partner that I will continue to love and grow with for years to come, for better or for worse. Feel free to e-mail me with more questions or for info on adopting a rescue. I'm happy to share! I could not have done it alone--Many THANKS to Gayle and the wonderful people at Field of Dreams for all their love, support and prayers. And another happy ending--all of the horses in his herd now have forever homes! Trumann's mother and auntie were adopted by The Healing Reins Therapeutic Riding Center in Bend and they are amazing therapy horses who love their job. It doesn't always work out this way, and I truly count my blessings. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fw: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi Mary. This is what happened. I held Odi the mule, while Bam-Bam was tied up and watching. (That was probably a mistake; he always watches stuff that's going on.) The farrier did Odi's front hooves fine (he doesn't need much work, it just took a few minutes). Then he went for his back hooves, and Odi didn't like that and started moving around. Before I really knew what was happening, he had a rope out and was going to use it somehow on his back feet. Odi freaked out and wasn't having any of that, and the farrier said, "He's been hog-tied before", and gave up on him. That was annoying to me, because I didn't know he was going to do something traumatic to Odi. When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had me hold him and went at his feet. So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier started got close to us. He didn't rear, but he was jumping all around and it was hard for me to hold onto. The farrier was like, OK, no way, and he turned around and left. The Bam-Bam was fine. Bam-Bam just didn't want that bad guy carrying torture-implements (for all he knew) getting close to him. So, I can see that mistakes that were made. Strange man holding strange tools, he sees the man do something bad to Odi, then the man goes at him like a predator, I haven't been lifting his hooves, etc. My fault. Oh good, thanks so much for that link. I'll check it out. The state of his hooves are my main worry with him. I've tried several leads but nothing has panned out yet. I need to get him more comfortable first anyway, I guess. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: Re: Introduction To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 9:27 AM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" The mule is 12. He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot more suspicious > and spooky. So they both need a lot of work. Somebody told me that mules and > fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two. I > thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison. We have a mule and five Fjords. And yes, the mule and Fjords have similarities, such as needing to understand if it benefits them to do something, then convinicing them to do so. A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let the > guy get near him. So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet > handled. I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet. If this horse has had problems in the past, he may be wary of farriers. How did he approach your horse? Did he let the horse sniff him, and did he 'introduce' himself to the horse, or did he just go in and grab a leg and start to trim? Most farriers come in smelling like other horses, and sometimes that will make a horse suspicious. I am in northern Wisconsin (Rhinelander). If anybody > knows a good trimmer near me, especially for a fjord and any special needs > they may have, I would appreciate if you let me know. All our animals are barefoot and have been for several years. We do occasionally use boots - Cavallo Sport are my choice. Here's a link to the Wisconsin Association for the Advancement of Natural Horse Care Practices: http://www.aanhcp.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=140&Itemid =121 Good luck in your search for a Natural Hoof Care Practitioner. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7741 (20121128) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fw: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi Cindy! I've been following you and Oden with interest since you are using CT too and Oden is way ahead of Bam-Bam. Luckily, I can touch him all over with my hands and with stuff, he doesn't mind that. I have been using umbrella, tarp, plastic bags, metal pans, etc. to desensitize Odi the mule, who is very wary and suspicious of anything new, and then I do it with Bam-Bam too, and he doesn't care. He watches Odi, who has to work up to doing it slowly, and then when it's his turn he runs over and starts touching things and stomping on things, so he can get CT too. Actually he broke out of his halter which I must not have tied well when he was tied up yesterday to come touch the umbrella, lol. And I can touch his legs and his hooves fine. However, when I try to pick up his foot, he either doesn't move it, or he jerks it away and slams it back down. I am just CT for any tiny bit of progress at this point. It's hard to catch that time that it's up before it's slammed back down again. Surely he's had his hooves worked on at some point, but it's like he has no idea what I am trying to do. Maybe he thinks I want him to move his foot over. He does do this thing when I'm not CT fast enough for him where he picks up his front foot and waves it around. I'm always worried he's going to paw/kick forward, since he has done that before, but that was under different circumstances. I wonder if I should CT that to start, since his foot is way in the air then. That's an idea, I guess. I haven't noticed if it's always the same foot or not, like if he is left or right-hooved. (Or horses left or right-hooved?) Thanks! That gives me an idea. Nice to see you here. :) --- On Wed, 11/28/12, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: Introduction To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 2:30 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Ro, since I know you're doing clicker training, the way to approach this is to break it into the smallest possible steps. If it were me, I would probably get a carrot stick (so I could stand back until I was sure whether he was going to kick out). Take the time to make sure he's comfortable with your stroking him with the stick. Then, see if you can rub his flank with the stick. If so, click and treat for that. Then, gradually, start running the stick down his leg. Click and treat for that. Continue that until you are sure he won't kick at the stick. Then repeat the exercise with your hand, clicking for him staying calm as you touch his flank, his leg, his ankle, and then, finally, his hoof. You'll need to repeat this on each hoof. Finally, you'll try to pick a hoof up. At first, click and treat even if he just shifts his weight off the hoof you want. In the end, you won't click until you can hold the hoof quietly in your hand. I am working on this with Oden right now, although Oden doesn't have issues with having his hooves touched. I'll try to get a video of it. I actually tried -- with you in mind -- just a few minutes ago; but I was working by myself, and there was no way to hold the camera, the hoof, the clicker, and everything else. LOL! I had to give up! But I'll try again when I can get my photographer (my 15YO son) to come out with me. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fw: Re: Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger #yiv1988381887 p {margin:0;} HI! So glad you adopted your fjord and a mule...I love both breeds.  Names?  The mule's name is Odi. The fjord's name was Oli--just random that they had rhyming names, but I couldn't keep them straight, and Odi couldn't tell the difference (it didn't help I used the wrong name half the time.) Since Odi knew his name, I kept his the same, and have been calling the fjord Bam-Bam. I guess that's his name now lol, since he knows it. It was just one of several nicknames I had for him while I was thinking of a name, but it stuck. (Better than Butter-Butt, I guess, which was one of the other ones.) His personality is very much Bam-Bam right now (he kicked me in the shins twice (not very hard) when I turned my attention away from him momentarily and he thought I should still be looking at him), but he's getting better all the time.    I have a 9 yo mare and yes, they are very smart...and mine is food motivated so if you know clicker training, there are people doing that with them.  There are a couple of sites on facebook...Norwegian Fjords...Fjords  one of the women there is sharing what she is doing with a clicker.  There is also some good stuff on youtube.  I recall seeing a video of someone at mule rescue getting an appy mule to go into a wash stall...it was really cool!!  Yes, CT is great.  I think I am following the woman on facebook; Life with Oden? And yes, they are both definitely food-motivated. That was the amazing part; I thought dogs were food-motivated, but there are things dogs like better than food sometimes. I don't think there is anything those horses like better!  Soph recently gave pony rides to small children and even let them lead her around. I have to watch the treats, because she gets very pushy...has pulled tabs off my barn coat. I get after her and she acts sullen...for a while LOL She seems to be sensitive to correction once she understands what you want.  With CT, the first thing you train them (any animal, not just horses) is not to mug you for treats. So it takes care of that problem.  I have a western trainer helping me with her.  She was pretty green a year ago... he loves working with her. She is very smart and happy to work.  That's good to hear. Yea these two guys come running when they see me. I don't think they think it is "work", lol.  Good luck!  Keep us up to date with your progress.  Beth and Soph Beth, Bob, the Corgis and the Fjord  Thanks for the welcome!   From: "Rovena Kessinger" To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:47:50 PM Subject: Introduction This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi everybody.� I hope I am posting to this list the right way. I have a four year old fjord gelding that I got from a horse rescue.� He was left there after two owners "gave up" on him.� I have had him for about two months.� He has had minimal training, and I don't think any of it stuck. I am new to horses.� I learned about clicker-training last year with a problem dog, and that worked so well, it gave me confidence to try it on a new species. It's going really well.� He was VERY pushy and domineering at first, and I was rather stupid and probably put myself in danger, I realize now that I know more, but it turned out OK, and he has made a huge amount of progress.� So, now that I know better, and he is better, it's all good. He is incredibly smart, and not scared of anything.� I have a mule that I do CT with too.� The reason that I picked those two out of all the horses was that they always came to the gate to greet me when I got there, and the one left in the field always watched me as I worked with the other one, obviously wanting to be in on it.� So I couldn't leave either behind.� The mule is 12.� He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot more suspicious and spooky. So they both need a lot of work.� Somebody told me that mules and fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two.� I thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison. Anyway, I found this list, and thought it would be interesting to see what other people are doing with their fjords.� My immediate issue with mine is his hooves.� I want to keep him barefoot, and I think from what I read that is how most fjords are.� A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let the guy get near him.� So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet handled.� I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet.� I'm sure we'll get there, but after that, I don't know a good barefoot trimmer in my area.� He obviously needs something done, so I was going to let the farrier just trim him, de
Introduction
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Hi everybody. I hope I am posting to this list the right way. I have a four year old fjord gelding that I got from a horse rescue. He was left there after two owners "gave up" on him. I have had him for about two months. He has had minimal training, and I don't think any of it stuck. I am new to horses. I learned about clicker-training last year with a problem dog, and that worked so well, it gave me confidence to try it on a new species. It's going really well. He was VERY pushy and domineering at first, and I was rather stupid and probably put myself in danger, I realize now that I know more, but it turned out OK, and he has made a huge amount of progress. So, now that I know better, and he is better, it's all good. He is incredibly smart, and not scared of anything. I have a mule that I do CT with too. The reason that I picked those two out of all the horses was that they always came to the gate to greet me when I got there, and the one left in the field always watched me as I worked with the other one, obviously wanting to be in on it. So I couldn't leave either behind. The mule is 12. He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot more suspicious and spooky. So they both need a lot of work. Somebody told me that mules and fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two. I thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison. Anyway, I found this list, and thought it would be interesting to see what other people are doing with their fjords. My immediate issue with mine is his hooves. I want to keep him barefoot, and I think from what I read that is how most fjords are. A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let the guy get near him. So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet handled. I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet. I'm sure we'll get there, but after that, I don't know a good barefoot trimmer in my area. He obviously needs something done, so I was going to let the farrier just trim him, despite the fact he doesn't seem to now anything special about barefoot trimming. I am in northern Wisconsin (Rhinelander). If anybody knows a good trimmer near me, especially for a fjord and any special needs they may have, I would appreciate if you let me know. Thanks, Ro Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l