Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
hey Rob, if your intentions are this honest, I mean you care for the newbies, and so on, why not start up your own blog, like Joel on Software, and spread your ghospels there about the ultimate truth? you don't like Tapestry, that's it. Ok, you've been heard. What else you want? cheers, Janos a Tapestry newbie On 17/04/2008, Rob Smeets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, now I know you don't care about those issues. But I know these are issues many evaluating a framework would care to consider as part of their decision factors. I don't know what you are building with Tapestry and don't know for who. I can be 100% sure though it's not a serious stuff for a serious organisation. It's sad projects like Tapestry are killing the OS spirits. I know good engineers at serious organisations who are reduced to coding with stuffs like JSP/JSF because it's a standard. All due to the insecurities projects like Tapestry bring with it. There is a one man dictator out there who thinks things should be done a particular way because it's fun even if the price to pay is breaking backward compatibility. A hobbyist at home wouldn't care to re-write everything from scratch because it's fun to do. But big organisations that invest big bucks loose big bucks for doing that. Left me alone, Tapestry should be kicked from Apache because it's destroying it's image. I know when the cord is stricken like this people here quickly label you a Troll. I don't care about that. I'm here to spread the gospel truth about Tapestry. I know someone who lost his job because of Tapestry's incompatibilities. I don't want this to happen again to someone else. So newbies, watch out. Chris, I see you constantly linking me to others. Who is that Francis? I hope he/she (since that name sounds female to me) is reading and would one day reply to you. Or maybe he/she is just laughing at your naivety, childishness and ignorance. Yours friendly, Rob PS: On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Smeets wrote: Chris, Some of your quotes were made by me but others not by me. To make things easier for you I've copied my previous post for you. Be bold and answer them, ok. Don't be afraid or shy. At least I won't bite you. There we go: I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. This is public knowledge and documented on the Tapestry website (5 not compatible with 4). 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? I don't know them, and I am not motivated by their decisions. If you think a decision is worth following simply because it was made by a high-profile person, perhaps you should reevaluate your personal criteria. 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. Fantastic. I'm sure that's publicly documented there. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. I do not care, and I doubt people building their T5 apps with the ease they are care either. What is the misinformation here, Chris? Don't avoid any of them or dilute them with anything else, please, else I would label you a big coward, which so far hasn't crossed my mind you are. Looking forawrd to your bold answers. I have given them. Yours friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Rob Smeets wrote: Left me alone, Tapestry should be kicked from Apache because it's destroying it's image. If it was in my power, YOU would be kicked from Apache and all their m/l. Chris, I see you constantly linking me to others. Who is that Francis? I hope he/she (since that name sounds female to me) is reading and would one day reply to you. Ha, Ha, Ha, (ROFL) Nice try, but that's the most ridiculous attempt I've seen so far. Everybody, reading the 'elegant' prose of all the 'different' people referenced by the Troll wiki page, would recognize the messages as written by a single person. I believe Francis's and Emmanuel's identities have been banned by the m/l, so we'll never see them again. I'll tell you, I think you started all this mess using the truest of your identities (Francis, yet that might not be your true name), and now you feel the thing may actually fire back. I heartily hope so. But I continue to wonder what you have against Howard: it's obviously something you started against him personally, and I think he should take his cautions to a more serious level (cease and desist, to start with). Angelo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
I hope after reading my post you won't add me to this page - http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls I really want to defend Rob :-) Since some of his points are real problems of Tapestry. I will say it again: backward compatibility. Of course major releases shouldn't be compatible, i.e. 1.0 version not necessary compatible with 2.0. But 1.0 should be compatible with 1.1. But at the same time T4 wasn't compatible with T3 and T4 is not compatible with T5. And after that story who will believe in words like: Tapestry 5 does not even attempt to be backwards compatible to Tapestry 4. Instead, it lays the ground work for true backwards compatibility going forwards. (resource - http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry5/, section Backwards Compatibility). Because in the past nobody cared about backwards compatibility we now have a problem that T5 is using org.apache.tapestry package and T4 is using the same package. As the result if I have a project with T4 and decided to use T5 with new cool features I just simply can't do that. Of course, in the real world nobody does fully backwards compatibility, every time we have issues during migrating to new version of some product. Even JDK 1.5 not fully backwards compatible with JDK 1.4. But at the same time Tapestry 5 is a great framework with a lot of great features. Thanks, Yura.
RE: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
You've been too active with technical issues on the list to be labeled a troll... unless Rob has a split personality and you are the side that actually knows something. Hmmm. An interesting email address, BTW, given the topic of conversation :-) And he (Rob) does have a point on backward compatibility, but like someone who keeps telling the same joke again and again and often at inappropriate times, he has become an annoyance. He also shrinks into the shadows any time he is asked what motivates him to persist. Jonathan -Original Message- From: Yura Tkachenko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:17 PM To: Tapestry users Subject: Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List I hope after reading my post you won't add me to this page - http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls I really want to defend Rob :-) Since some of his points are real problems of Tapestry. I will say it again: backward compatibility. Of course major releases shouldn't be compatible, i.e. 1.0 version not necessary compatible with 2.0. But 1.0 should be compatible with 1.1. But at the same time T4 wasn't compatible with T3 and T4 is not compatible with T5. And after that story who will believe in words like: Tapestry 5 does not even attempt to be backwards compatible to Tapestry 4. Instead, it lays the ground work for true backwards compatibility going forwards. (resource - http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry5/, section Backwards Compatibility). Because in the past nobody cared about backwards compatibility we now have a problem that T5 is using org.apache.tapestry package and T4 is using the same package. As the result if I have a project with T4 and decided to use T5 with new cool features I just simply can't do that. Of course, in the real world nobody does fully backwards compatibility, every time we have issues during migrating to new version of some product. Even JDK 1.5 not fully backwards compatible with JDK 1.4. But at the same time Tapestry 5 is a great framework with a lot of great features. Thanks, Yura. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Expressing dissent is not trolling. Sure one could argue that what constitutes trolling is subjective, but almost any reasonable person can discern when the line has been crossed. Francis is a lying mischievous fool that periodically chimes in in hopes of pissing off users, or scaring off newbies. Not to mention he abuses this list and therefore it's legitimate participants, like you and I. Yura Tkachenko wrote: I hope after reading my post you won't add me to this page - http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls I really want to defend Rob :-) Since some of his points are real problems of Tapestry. I will say it again: backward compatibility. Of course major releases shouldn't be compatible, i.e. 1.0 version not necessary compatible with 2.0. But 1.0 should be compatible with 1.1. But at the same time T4 wasn't compatible with T3 and T4 is not compatible with T5. And after that story who will believe in words like: Tapestry 5 does not even attempt to be backwards compatible to Tapestry 4. Instead, it lays the ground work for true backwards compatibility going forwards. (resource - http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry5/, section Backwards Compatibility). Because in the past nobody cared about backwards compatibility we now have a problem that T5 is using org.apache.tapestry package and T4 is using the same package. As the result if I have a project with T4 and decided to use T5 with new cool features I just simply can't do that. Of course, in the real world nobody does fully backwards compatibility, every time we have issues during migrating to new version of some product. Even JDK 1.5 not fully backwards compatible with JDK 1.4. But at the same time Tapestry 5 is a great framework with a lot of great features. Thanks, Yura. -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've been too active with technical issues on the list to be labeled a troll... unless Rob has a split personality and you are the side that actually knows something. Hmmm. An interesting email address, BTW, given the topic of conversation :-) It's because I'm trying to use tapestry again :-). In a short I was using Tapestry 4 a little bit 2 years ago. And right now trying to read book about Tapestry 5 (which was unfairly blamed here - http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=48743). Maybe I started to read this book because I was surprised is it really so bad. But as the result I found it's very useful. Nowadays very hard to find so professional book about programming. But as the recommendation to author of this book and guys who are writing help about Tapestry 5 on the site: Please add more examples about Translator interface in Tapestry 5 and how it can be used. I'm asking about that not because I have some troubles with it, but because it's very important and help developers (users of T5) to do code reuse. This approach is almost the same as converters in JSF. And you can easily open any book about JSF and find that each author is trying to spend almost one chapter about converters and how it can be used in real life. Thanks, Yura.
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Check this wiki page: http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls, and then consider reporting him to the relevant abuse departments. A couple of us now know a good deal about who this person is, and I am hoping that he will consider the reputation of his actual identity and back off. chris Lindsay Steele wrote: Ignoring trolls works well with one off messages trying to get old arguments started but this case is different. This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information to the point of damaging a lot of good work. I think the people that have politely replied to his FUD with solid facts and personal experiences have actually been the best way to go. Ignoring this poor person gives them more pleasure than addressing the inaccurate information I suspect. On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin Kersten-2 wrote: Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16737253.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://thegodcode.net
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information Petros, I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Petros? Yours friendly, Rob On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin Kersten-2 wrote: Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16737253.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite anger. Again, this proves how arrogant and unfriendly Tapestry mailing list members are. - *FUD + Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-at-my-company-p16122861.html - *FUD* - This entire situation is probably a lie. If not, validate it. Provide links to the project company, and personally email me a technical contact that I can privately consult and verify. http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-Tapestry-p15893688.html I googled and also learnt there is Tapestry 6 in the works which would also be a whole new beast not compatible with all previous Tapestry versions. - *Misinformation*. You did no such thing, and you are a despicable liar. Rob Smeets wrote: This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information Petros, I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Petros? Yours friendly, Rob On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin Kersten-2 wrote: Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16737253.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://thegodcode.net
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Chris, Some of your quotes were made by me but others not by me. To make things easier for you I've copied my previous post for you. Be bold and answer them, ok. Don't be afraid or shy. At least I won't bite you. There we go: I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Chris? Don't avoid any of them or dilute them with anything else, please, else I would label you a big coward, which so far hasn't crossed my mind you are. Looking forawrd to your bold answers. Yours friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite anger. Again, this proves how arrogant and unfriendly Tapestry mailing list members are. - *FUD + Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-at-my-company-p16122861.html - *FUD* - This entire situation is probably a lie. If not, validate it. Provide links to the project company, and personally email me a technical contact that I can privately consult and verify. http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-Tapestry-p15893688.html I googled and also learnt there is Tapestry 6 in the works which would also be a whole new beast not compatible with all previous Tapestry versions. - *Misinformation*. You did no such thing, and you are a despicable liar. Rob Smeets wrote: This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information Petros, I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Petros? Yours friendly, Rob On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Rob Smeets wrote: Chris, Some of your quotes were made by me but others not by me. To make things easier for you I've copied my previous post for you. Be bold and answer them, ok. Don't be afraid or shy. At least I won't bite you. There we go: I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. This is public knowledge and documented on the Tapestry website (5 not compatible with 4). 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? I don't know them, and I am not motivated by their decisions. If you think a decision is worth following simply because it was made by a high-profile person, perhaps you should reevaluate your personal criteria. 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. Fantastic. I'm sure that's publicly documented there. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. I do not care, and I doubt people building their T5 apps with the ease they are care either. What is the misinformation here, Chris? Don't avoid any of them or dilute them with anything else, please, else I would label you a big coward, which so far hasn't crossed my mind you are. Looking forawrd to your bold answers. I have given them. Yours friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite anger. Again, this proves how arrogant and unfriendly Tapestry mailing list members are. - *FUD + Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-at-my-company-p16122861.html - *FUD* - This entire situation is probably a lie. If not, validate it. Provide links to the project company, and personally email me a technical contact that I can privately consult and verify. http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-Tapestry-p15893688.html I googled and also learnt there is Tapestry 6 in the works which would also be a whole new beast not compatible with all previous Tapestry versions. - *Misinformation*. You did no such thing, and you are a despicable liar. Rob Smeets wrote: This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information Petros, I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Petros? Yours friendly, Rob On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Ok, now I know you don't care about those issues. But I know these are issues many evaluating a framework would care to consider as part of their decision factors. I don't know what you are building with Tapestry and don't know for who. I can be 100% sure though it's not a serious stuff for a serious organisation. It's sad projects like Tapestry are killing the OS spirits. I know good engineers at serious organisations who are reduced to coding with stuffs like JSP/JSF because it's a standard. All due to the insecurities projects like Tapestry bring with it. There is a one man dictator out there who thinks things should be done a particular way because it's fun even if the price to pay is breaking backward compatibility. A hobbyist at home wouldn't care to re-write everything from scratch because it's fun to do. But big organisations that invest big bucks loose big bucks for doing that. Left me alone, Tapestry should be kicked from Apache because it's destroying it's image. I know when the cord is stricken like this people here quickly label you a Troll. I don't care about that. I'm here to spread the gospel truth about Tapestry. I know someone who lost his job because of Tapestry's incompatibilities. I don't want this to happen again to someone else. So newbies, watch out. Chris, I see you constantly linking me to others. Who is that Francis? I hope he/she (since that name sounds female to me) is reading and would one day reply to you. Or maybe he/she is just laughing at your naivety, childishness and ignorance. Yours friendly, Rob PS: On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Smeets wrote: Chris, Some of your quotes were made by me but others not by me. To make things easier for you I've copied my previous post for you. Be bold and answer them, ok. Don't be afraid or shy. At least I won't bite you. There we go: I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. This is public knowledge and documented on the Tapestry website (5 not compatible with 4). 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? I don't know them, and I am not motivated by their decisions. If you think a decision is worth following simply because it was made by a high-profile person, perhaps you should reevaluate your personal criteria. 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. Fantastic. I'm sure that's publicly documented there. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. I do not care, and I doubt people building their T5 apps with the ease they are care either. What is the misinformation here, Chris? Don't avoid any of them or dilute them with anything else, please, else I would label you a big coward, which so far hasn't crossed my mind you are. Looking forawrd to your bold answers. I have given them. Yours friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite anger. Again, this proves how arrogant and unfriendly Tapestry mailing list members are. - *FUD + Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-at-my-company-p16122861.html - *FUD* - This entire situation is probably a lie. If not, validate it. Provide links to the project company, and personally email me a technical contact that I can privately consult and verify. http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-Tapestry-p15893688.html I googled and also learnt there is Tapestry 6 in the works which
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Chris only pinpointed your former offends and was so kind to translate the type of it with respect. He was AFAICS not digging into what you repeatedly post as facts to list. So, Rob, we got your points [1-4]. Thank You. And now would you just be so kind and leave us so we can happily close this long winded thread. Regards, Michael Rob Smeets schrieb: Chris, Some of your quotes were made by me but others not by me. To make things easier for you I've copied my previous post for you. Be bold and answer them, ok. Don't be afraid or shy. At least I won't bite you. There we go: I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Chris? Don't avoid any of them or dilute them with anything else, please, else I would label you a big coward, which so far hasn't crossed my mind you are. Looking forawrd to your bold answers. Yours friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francis (as Rob): http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-AW%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16679523.html ...not only are high profile Tapestry users abandoning Tapestry, high profile sites which were using Tapestry are also ditching Tapestry... - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-p16634215.html ...Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry... - *Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-T5-%285.0.11%29---ready-for-production-deployment-p16348763.html I have 2 favorite adjectives about Tapestry 5: Over-engineerd and Volatile!!' - *FUD* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16270907.html Go grab Wicket of GWT. It's better documented and questions like what you asked won't refer you to source code but to a well documented examples. Above all the users of those lists are far, far more friendly. - *SPAM* http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-is-T5-tutorial--p16275158.html There we go again, when someone raises a legitimate concern he is easily labeled a Troll - *Misinformation*. You have no questions, you seek to incite anger. Again, this proves how arrogant and unfriendly Tapestry mailing list members are. - *FUD + Misinformation* http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-at-my-company-p16122861.html - *FUD* - This entire situation is probably a lie. If not, validate it. Provide links to the project company, and personally email me a technical contact that I can privately consult and verify. http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-Tapestry-p15893688.html I googled and also learnt there is Tapestry 6 in the works which would also be a whole new beast not compatible with all previous Tapestry versions. - *Misinformation*. You did no such thing, and you are a despicable liar. Rob Smeets wrote: This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information Petros, I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. What is the misinformation here, Petros? Yours friendly, Rob On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
I want you to take a close look at the following points I've been making and tell me which one is a misinformation. 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. That's true and really inconvenient. On the other hand I also complain about frameworks, operating systems and even Java itself for getting bigger, more complex and slower all the time. That's mostly because they do try to stay backwards compatible and have to deal with a lot of bloat as a result. Howard has made a different choice here than most other frameworks have. As a result Tapestry is still lean and mean, gets easier to use with each release and still performs great. For me it's not a reason to ditch Tapestry. Old apps are still happily running on older versions of Tapestry. For the people that do find this important, the information is openly available on the website and so you're not actually providing more information by repeating this over and over again. it is a well known fact. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks That's true of almost any framework or technique I know about. Tapestry has been under development for years and during that time people tend to leave and join. That doesn't mean the framework itself is dying. More frameworks are available today so it makes sense that the number of developers using a framework gets divided. Different people have different preferences and both Wicket and GWT are excellent frameworks as well. 3. Tapestry has been ditched by www.theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. Again. It is one example that is true, but I've been moving the other way: porting stuff to Tapestry and Wicket. I'm currently considering ditching Wicket altogether for my future projects and stick with Tapestry 5. The biggest advantage of Wicket was developer productivity in my opinion. Now Tapestry 5 seems to surpass it and on top of that provides stellar performance and makes me feel more in control. That doesn't mean that I think Wicket is bad. It is a great piece of technology and I think anyone should at least give it a try to form an honest opinion. Choice is good and if someone decides to pick another web-framework because it suits them better, it is hardly an argument against another framework. Those other frameworks might fit other requirements much better. Most people use Windows on their workstation. It does the job for most people, but isn't the best or most efficient choice for everyone. I'm glad to be able to use Mac OSX at home, while others prefer Linux or even Amiga OS or something else altogether. One OS isn't bad just because other people have different preferences. 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry, Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. That's simply not true. He may have trained only so many people on site, but I've learned Tapestry 3 by buying and reading his book. And that's also how much of the other Tapestry users I know of learned the framework. After learning Tapestry I trained quote a few people on different projects myself. You are abusing a single comment made by Howard to make it appear as if no-one is using this framework. What is the misinformation here, Chris? You have stated many things in the past that were untrue and the fact that you only want answers from Chris about these 4 points makes that very clear. regards, Onno
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. Releases of many frameworks are incompatible with each other. The change from 3 to 4 was minor and with the change from 4 to 5, one can still use the same HTML templates and do a fairly good upgrade. Version 4.x is still in development and supported, there is no great need to upgrade an existing project, new projects would do well to take advantage of the features in Tapestry 5. It is called progress, get over it. 2. High profile users and commiters have fled Tapestry to other frameworks such as Wicket. Namely, Kent Tong, Geoff Longman, etc. I could name some more. Should I do it? Geoff moved on for personal reasons, Kent has done books on a number of frameworks. Many new people have come on board. People change .. get over it. 3. Tapestry has been ditched by Theserverside.com and replaced with another webframework. And Tapestry has since been taken up by many other sites. Sites change frameworks for various reasons .. get over it. Interestingly .. this can be found on some pages. meta name=generator content=Tapestry Application Framework, version 3.0.1/ 4. In 7 years of existense of Tapestry Howard has only been able to train just a 100 Tapestry users. In between other jobs and development work, I suspect this is quite a lot. Howard is not primarily a trainer, he is a developer as well. Training this amount of people is admirable and shows the respect he has. Other open source developers would not have the personal skills to do any training at all. The books he has written, tutorials and other material have most likely led to the training of countless others. What is the misinformation here, Petros? I think you would be insulting Petros intelligence to suggest that he cannot see through any of your rubbish. Move on mate, you are achieving nothing and just making a fool of yourself.
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
On 4/17/08, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Smeets wrote: Chris, 1. Every Tapestry major release is backward incompatible with previous releases. This is public knowledge and documented on the Tapestry website (5 not compatible with 4). Howard has stated many times that Tapestry 5 was implemented from the very beggining to be forward compatible. This way, what Rob is saying about lack of backward compatibility is FUD because it was true in the past, but not anymore. -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin Kersten-2 wrote: Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16737253.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Ignoring trolls works well with one off messages trying to get old arguments started but this case is different. This person is beyond a troll and has gone to a concerted effort to spread FUD and mis-information to the point of damaging a lot of good work. I think the people that have politely replied to his FUD with solid facts and personal experiences have actually been the best way to go. Ignoring this poor person gives them more pleasure than addressing the inaccurate information I suspect. On 17/04/2008, Petros Petrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to be rude but really... WHY DO YOU GUYS EVEN REPLY TO THIS GUY Can't you see how much fun he is having. By replying to a discussion he is part of, I feel I am his puppet and my job is to keep entertaining him. This is what we are all doing by reploying to him. I am sure I am going to get some smart reply from him after I post this BUT I will resist in getting dragged into a waste of time discussion because I am extremely busy writting code with one of the best web frameworks out there and I have worked with JSP, Servlet, JSF, Struts, Webworks, Spring WebFlow, Tapestry 3, Tapestry 4 .. (I am considering T5 to be a new framework which is why I no longer worry about backwards compatibility) Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to patronise the people that reply to him. In fact few of you guys that replied to his discussions already helped me out through this forum by replying to my posts and I am very thankful of this BUT please let's keep this forum clean from destructions and clean from emotional counter productive arguments and let's stop providing free entertainment. Cheers, Petros Martin Kersten-2 wrote: Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16737253.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: AW: Getting Answers on the User List
Rob your English is by no question admirable but you drove quite to far. I like all those Tapestry folks - special thanks to the core team and Howard from me. Thanks to their affords Web-Development Is fun again. So please stop insulting them. Rob Smeets wrote: Like those reading now, I'm smelling something fishy here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
