Re: (313) Playing In China
Atomly and I will be forming a new electro-pop duo called DAFT WRONG. Our debut album will be titled "LARGEST PEOPLE IN THE ROOM." On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:15 PM, atomly wrote: >> Where China is concerned do you really think that's an assumption? It >> may be daft/wrong but that's how I see it
Re: (313) Playing In China
[Martin Dust ] > ja...@iridite.com wrote: > >That's a real inverse snobbery vibe from where I'm sitting - "ex pats > >and their rich friends" has such an air of assumption about it it's > >just daft. > > Where China is concerned do you really think that's an assumption? It > may be daft/wrong but that's how I see it and it was confirmed by a > friend who visited last week. Maybe I am an inverted snob who can't > escape his working class upbringing but I know how I feel and I've done > my best to explain it. Inverse snobbery to me sounds about as ridiculous a claim as "reverse racism." I'm with Martin here-- if he plays at a "working class" club that's cheaper and has a more relaxed door policy, there's nothing stopping anybody from attending. If, on the other hand, he plays at an exclusive club with a really high cover and an "exclusive" door policy, that precludes a large portion of people from attending (those that can't afford it, those that don't fit the door policy, etc.)- I can't see how one is just as discriminatory as the other. To take it slightly off-topic, Fugazi for years refused to play shows unless they were all ages and cost less than $5. As a dirty punk kid growing up in the midwest, this was pretty much the greatest thing ever, because it meant I could always get into their shows. I personally feel a bit ridiculous playing in bottle service clubs for "VIPs" who don't even know and/or care about my music. I'd much rather play for a little less money to a crowd that's actually there to get down. -- :: atomly :: [ ato...@atomly.com : www.atomly.com : http://blog.atomly.com/ ... [ atomiq records : new york city : +1.917.442.9450 ... [ e-mail atomly-news-subscr...@atomly.com for atomly info and updates ...
Re: (313) Playing In China
ja...@iridite.com wrote: That's a real inverse snobbery vibe from where I'm sitting - "ex pats and their rich friends" has such an air of assumption about it it's just daft. Where China is concerned do you really think that's an assumption? It may be daft/wrong but that's how I see it and it was confirmed by a friend who visited last week. Maybe I am an inverted snob who can't escape his working class upbringing but I know how I feel and I've done my best to explain it. The point here is that there are bits of cities in every place in the world where the residents are so poor that "clubbing" wouldn't come onto their radar - daily survival is more important. I'm sure there are places in Sheffield every bit as bad as the worst in Glasgow but that doesn't stop you/me/other people playing there (nor should it in my opinion). I don't see how this is connected with China Jason, what stops me playing China is it's lack of Freedom of Speech, Free Thinking, Use Of Apartheid on it's own people, it's treatment of the people of Tibet. I don't believe you are comparing like for like here and I really don't expect anyone to agree with me, I can't do any more that state why. Hit me up off the list if I'm still missing something cos I think this list has suffered enough of my posting on the subject. m
Re: (313) Playing In China
Meh - I shouldn't have started/continued this conversation as I don;t reallyt have time to express my thoughts fully but: >> What's wrong with "ex pats" >> anyway? I lived in Amsterdam for two years and that put me in the "ex >> pat" box - it's not a word I'd consider in a negative fashion. >> > > I just don't want to play to ex-pats and the rich mate, we won't play in > Dubai for the same reason, our choice really, we just don't fancy it - it's > no big deal and I wouldn't want to turn it into an issue and I did give my > other reasons and I most definitely can't support any of those. That's a real inverse snobbery vibe from where I'm sitting - "ex pats and their rich friends" has such an air of assumption about it it's just daft. > > We just wouldn't like the vibe but I can take on board that we may be > completely wrong. > >> Of course there are many, many people in China who couldn't afford to >> go to the gig in question - there's plenty of people in Glasgow who >> can't afford to go the the Arches or enjoy the hedonistic club culture >> it embodies but..I don't remember it stopping you playing there >> Martin? > > Have you just compared China with Glasgow! Come on Jason, those are not the > same, not even close. Apples for apples fella ;) The point here is that there are bits of cities in every place in the world where the residents are so poor that "clubbing" wouldn't come onto their radar - daily survival is more important. I'm sure there are places in Sheffield every bit as bad as the worst in Glasgow but that doesn't stop you/me/other people playing there (nor should it in my opinion). > > On the subject of the Arches, I agree with you it does cost too much to get > in and I'd rather play the Sub Club any time of the day but on the last > couple of visits we've usual played somewhere else for less money and with a > lot lower door fees - we just do what we can where we can. I've really grown > to love Glasgow and the vibe there, to me it's better than Berlin and we'd > do what we could to support the scene. Sure - my point isn't an attack on you playing anywhere in particular (or the Arches where I've played myself many times over the years), I was just saying some people can barely afford to put food in their mouths, never mind going to clubs but that shouldn't preclude you from playing anywhere in particular. cheers - sorry if I'm not making myself clear! JB > > m > >
Re: (313) Playing In China
ja...@iridite.com wrote: I just don't get a lot of this argument - I know the guy who put on the gig in question and he's a good guy. I didn't say he wasn't. What's wrong with "ex pats" anyway? I lived in Amsterdam for two years and that put me in the "ex pat" box - it's not a word I'd consider in a negative fashion. I just don't want to play to ex-pats and the rich mate, we won't play in Dubai for the same reason, our choice really, we just don't fancy it - it's no big deal and I wouldn't want to turn it into an issue and I did give my other reasons and I most definitely can't support any of those. We just wouldn't like the vibe but I can take on board that we may be completely wrong. Of course there are many, many people in China who couldn't afford to go to the gig in question - there's plenty of people in Glasgow who can't afford to go the the Arches or enjoy the hedonistic club culture it embodies but..I don't remember it stopping you playing there Martin? Have you just compared China with Glasgow! Come on Jason, those are not the same, not even close. Apples for apples fella ;) On the subject of the Arches, I agree with you it does cost too much to get in and I'd rather play the Sub Club any time of the day but on the last couple of visits we've usual played somewhere else for less money and with a lot lower door fees - we just do what we can where we can. I've really grown to love Glasgow and the vibe there, to me it's better than Berlin and we'd do what we could to support the scene. m
Re: (313) Playing In China
I just don't get a lot of this argument - I know the guy who put on the gig in question and he's a good guy. What's wrong with "ex pats" anyway? I lived in Amsterdam for two years and that put me in the "ex pat" box - it's not a word I'd consider in a negative fashion. Of course there are many, many people in China who couldn't afford to go to the gig in question - there's plenty of people in Glasgow who can't afford to go the the Arches or enjoy the hedonistic club culture it embodies but..I don't remember it stopping you playing there Martin? I understand completely how deep your feelings are against the government in question but I just don't get any of the rest of the discussion. cheers Jason 2009/9/9 JT Stewart : > Well said Martin, I completely agree with your stance when framed this way. > > I didn't agree with the framing of the problem as something to do with > ex-pats and "rich" people, since you may play for those sorts in any > city. It seemed to be framing the issue as a problem with the > audience, or lack of an "authentic" audience. > > I have a few friends in China and I have a few customers (collectors > of rare 78rpm records) in China and Taiwan. I've got a few friends > that have traveled there extensively and a few who lived there for a > few years. There used to be a Chinese guy on the CBS forum. Repeatedly > mentioning whatever experience Surgeon had in a big club in Shanghai > is pretty inane. It's just one man's experience, and frankly it's no > surprise that playing in a big club in a big city for a big paycheck > could result in a crowd full of rich people and ex-pats. Nobody here > seems to have any real experience in China, so while it's fair to take > a principled stance against the gov't according to what you've learned > through various media, and to put some stock in what you've heard of > Surgeon's experience, it only goes "so far" in giving you an informed > opinion and conception. Not very far. > > I have as many problems with the Chinese gov't as you, and certainly > playing a high-profile gig for a random crowd (ie going there to do > business) could be construed as an endorsement or at least as a blind > eye. I don't play many of those shows in the first place. It's not > hard to imagine playing some off-the-radar party for a few fans and > genuinely interested people. That's mostly what I play anyway. > > JT > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Martin Dust wrote: >> >> On 8 Sep 2009, at 16:20, David Powers wrote: >> >>> I would argue that the USA and UK have regimes that are just as bad as >>> China. By your logic DJ's shouldn't play at all! >>> >>> ~David >> >> You could but I have even greater difficulty with the Chinese Government: >> >> 1. The lack of free speech and free thinking: >> http://www.hrichina.org/public/index >> >> 2. It's active use of apartheid systems. >> >> 3. It's treatment of Tibet. >> >> 4. It's human rights record. >> >> For myself, I just could not bring myself to support any of that in any way, >> shape or form. And where I can't avoid it (iPod/Laptop/TV) I give money to >> http://www.plan-uk.org/ and have done for 10yrs, we support a couple of >> people in China with a plan for people to work their way out of poverty - I >> even had problems with that at one stage because I was worried that it was >> patronising. I find their letters heart breaking and the fact that I have to >> watch what I'm saying or sending in my letters makes he even more angry. >> >> It's very difficult/complex and I don't think I explained myself well enough >> yesterday but I really and honestly don't want a cheap holiday in other >> peoples misery nor do I want to play only to the expats and elite who can >> afford it, in my heart of hearts I know that it's not right. >> >> m >> >
Re: (313) Playing In China
Well said Martin, I completely agree with your stance when framed this way. I didn't agree with the framing of the problem as something to do with ex-pats and "rich" people, since you may play for those sorts in any city. It seemed to be framing the issue as a problem with the audience, or lack of an "authentic" audience. I have a few friends in China and I have a few customers (collectors of rare 78rpm records) in China and Taiwan. I've got a few friends that have traveled there extensively and a few who lived there for a few years. There used to be a Chinese guy on the CBS forum. Repeatedly mentioning whatever experience Surgeon had in a big club in Shanghai is pretty inane. It's just one man's experience, and frankly it's no surprise that playing in a big club in a big city for a big paycheck could result in a crowd full of rich people and ex-pats. Nobody here seems to have any real experience in China, so while it's fair to take a principled stance against the gov't according to what you've learned through various media, and to put some stock in what you've heard of Surgeon's experience, it only goes "so far" in giving you an informed opinion and conception. Not very far. I have as many problems with the Chinese gov't as you, and certainly playing a high-profile gig for a random crowd (ie going there to do business) could be construed as an endorsement or at least as a blind eye. I don't play many of those shows in the first place. It's not hard to imagine playing some off-the-radar party for a few fans and genuinely interested people. That's mostly what I play anyway. JT On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Martin Dust wrote: > > On 8 Sep 2009, at 16:20, David Powers wrote: > >> I would argue that the USA and UK have regimes that are just as bad as >> China. By your logic DJ's shouldn't play at all! >> >> ~David > > You could but I have even greater difficulty with the Chinese Government: > > 1. The lack of free speech and free thinking: > http://www.hrichina.org/public/index > > 2. It's active use of apartheid systems. > > 3. It's treatment of Tibet. > > 4. It's human rights record. > > For myself, I just could not bring myself to support any of that in any way, > shape or form. And where I can't avoid it (iPod/Laptop/TV) I give money to > http://www.plan-uk.org/ and have done for 10yrs, we support a couple of > people in China with a plan for people to work their way out of poverty - I > even had problems with that at one stage because I was worried that it was > patronising. I find their letters heart breaking and the fact that I have to > watch what I'm saying or sending in my letters makes he even more angry. > > It's very difficult/complex and I don't think I explained myself well enough > yesterday but I really and honestly don't want a cheap holiday in other > peoples misery nor do I want to play only to the expats and elite who can > afford it, in my heart of hearts I know that it's not right. > > m >
Re: (313) Playing In China
But yeah BNP on Question Time on a TV near you. I hope they show themselves to be the bafoons they are but no doubt will still get some sympathy/publicity. Because I support free speech, I don't support the "no platform" stance. In Sheffield for example we gave the BNP enough space and rope to hang themselves, which they did but Nick Griffin is no local organiser and he's very good in public. People need to be level headed and show them up for what they really are rather than taking the angry approach. There's enough stuff in that guys history to sink them but I fear for a short while they will continue to get some wins as they are playing on the working classes fears and this government has let those people down badly. m
Re: (313) Playing In China
Inspiring one person can make a world of difference - Tiannamen square. But how could you (or the collective we rather) allow people to listen music they like. Artists could tour and still be against the govt maybe even dontate profits to the people able to make a difference in the host nation. I truly believe music can elicit change so if discussion can be had here it would be good. But yeah BNP on Question Time on a TV near you. I hope they show themselves to be the bafoons they are but no doubt will still get some sympathy/publicity. Ravinder. 2009/9/9 Martin Dust : > > On 9 Sep 2009, at 10:05, Odeluga, Ken wrote: > >> Most here agree with your point of view Martin. >> >> The differences are all in the way we choose to handle it, that's all. > > I know that one person saying NO may not make a difference but I still > believe in "people" power, I really do. > > >> You've got some admirable stuff going on with respect to trying to make a >> difference to the lives of a few people there. >> That's probably the most that we as individuals could hope to achieve: the >> fact that you're achieving that is the most important point in my book. > > I think you have to try, give people a chance and do what we can. > > >> Disclaimer to the Off Topic Po lease: >> This has been off topic I know - but we're discussing this because it's a >> part of the discussion about artistic freedom and how political regimes can >> have an impact on that. > > Yes, thanks list but I feel techno and music has to get more political right > now, for UK listers the BNP are now in Europe and sitting on top of 2.4m > worth of funding - What happened? > > > m > > >
Re: (313) Playing In China
On 9 Sep 2009, at 10:05, Odeluga, Ken wrote: Most here agree with your point of view Martin. The differences are all in the way we choose to handle it, that's all. I know that one person saying NO may not make a difference but I still believe in "people" power, I really do. You've got some admirable stuff going on with respect to trying to make a difference to the lives of a few people there. That's probably the most that we as individuals could hope to achieve: the fact that you're achieving that is the most important point in my book. I think you have to try, give people a chance and do what we can. Disclaimer to the Off Topic Po lease: This has been off topic I know - but we're discussing this because it's a part of the discussion about artistic freedom and how political regimes can have an impact on that. Yes, thanks list but I feel techno and music has to get more political right now, for UK listers the BNP are now in Europe and sitting on top of 2.4m worth of funding - What happened? m
RE: (313) Playing In China
Most here agree with your point of view Martin. The differences are all in the way we choose to handle it, that's all. You've got some admirable stuff going on with respect to trying to make a difference to the lives of a few people there. That's probably the most that we as individuals could hope to achieve: the fact that you're achieving that is the most important point in my book. Disclaimer to the Off Topic Po lease: This has been off topic I know - but we're discussing this because it's a part of the discussion about artistic freedom and how political regimes can have an impact on that. Ken -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:mar...@dustscience.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 9:51 AM To: list 313 Subject: Re: (313) Playing In China On 8 Sep 2009, at 16:20, David Powers wrote: > I would argue that the USA and UK have regimes that are just as bad > as China. By your logic DJ's shouldn't play at all! > > ~David You could but I have even greater difficulty with the Chinese Government: 1. The lack of free speech and free thinking: http://www.hrichina.org/public/index 2. It's active use of apartheid systems. 3. It's treatment of Tibet. 4. It's human rights record. For myself, I just could not bring myself to support any of that in any way, shape or form. And where I can't avoid it (iPod/Laptop/TV) I give money to http://www.plan-uk.org/ and have done for 10yrs, we support a couple of people in China with a plan for people to work their way out of poverty - I even had problems with that at one stage because I was worried that it was patronising. I find their letters heart breaking and the fact that I have to watch what I'm saying or sending in my letters makes he even more angry. It's very difficult/complex and I don't think I explained myself well enough yesterday but I really and honestly don't want a cheap holiday in other peoples misery nor do I want to play only to the expats and elite who can afford it, in my heart of hearts I know that it's not right. m
Re: (313) Playing In China
On 8 Sep 2009, at 16:20, David Powers wrote: I would argue that the USA and UK have regimes that are just as bad as China. By your logic DJ's shouldn't play at all! ~David You could but I have even greater difficulty with the Chinese Government: 1. The lack of free speech and free thinking: http://www.hrichina.org/public/index 2. It's active use of apartheid systems. 3. It's treatment of Tibet. 4. It's human rights record. For myself, I just could not bring myself to support any of that in any way, shape or form. And where I can't avoid it (iPod/Laptop/TV) I give money to http://www.plan-uk.org/ and have done for 10yrs, we support a couple of people in China with a plan for people to work their way out of poverty - I even had problems with that at one stage because I was worried that it was patronising. I find their letters heart breaking and the fact that I have to watch what I'm saying or sending in my letters makes he even more angry. It's very difficult/complex and I don't think I explained myself well enough yesterday but I really and honestly don't want a cheap holiday in other peoples misery nor do I want to play only to the expats and elite who can afford it, in my heart of hearts I know that it's not right. m
RE: (313) Playing In China
State capitalist/social imperialist really ;) This is way way OT now :) Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:mar...@dustscience.com] Sent: 08 September 2009 12:36 To: Robert Taylor Cc: list 313 Subject: Re: (313) Playing In China On 8 Sep 2009, at 12:28, Robert Taylor wrote: > China is very much a secular state Martin! Go tell that to Tibet Rob! But I think the statement of Totalitarianism is correct as China was still a communist last time I checked. m # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
Re: (313) Playing In China
On 8 Sep 2009, at 12:28, Robert Taylor wrote: China is very much a secular state Martin! Go tell that to Tibet Rob! But I think the statement of Totalitarianism is correct as China was still a communist last time I checked. m
RE: (313) Playing In China
China is very much a secular state Martin! Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:mar...@dustscience.com] Sent: 08 September 2009 12:21 To: list 313 Subject: Re: (313) Playing In China I just find it hard to support a totalitarian theocracy Ken. m # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) Playing In China
@Ken >>So when anyone visits China and goes to a DJ Bone or Surgeon gig, they're a bourgeois expat milking the fcuk out of everyone. I just find it hard to support a totalitarian theocracy Ken. m So do I Martin. The crux of it is that we seem to believe in different ways and means about at least *displaying* disagreement with that theocracy. My view is that I don't see how *not* going to a DJ Bone or Surgeon gig in China makes one jot of difference either way. Ken -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:mar...@dustscience.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 12:21 PM To: list 313 Subject: Re: (313) Playing In China On 8 Sep 2009, at 11:24, Ravinder S Mann wrote: > Its a tricky one. Bringing the music to a potentially huge market v. > playing < insert oppressive state> but I doubt he got paid loads or > paid any money to sponsor the said oppressive state. It might even > inspire listeners to chanllenge the status quo. > Hey Ravi, I know it's tricky but I don't for one minute believe anyone in China right now would be up for challenging the status quo after listening to Star Dancer - as we all know what happens when they do. @Ken >>So when anyone visits China and goes to a DJ Bone or Surgeon gig, they're a bourgeois expat milking the fcuk out of everyone. I just find it hard to support a totalitarian theocracy Ken. m
Re: (313) Playing In China
On 8 Sep 2009, at 11:24, Ravinder S Mann wrote: Its a tricky one. Bringing the music to a potentially huge market v. playing < insert oppressive state> but I doubt he got paid loads or paid any money to sponsor the said oppressive state. It might even inspire listeners to chanllenge the status quo. Hey Ravi, I know it's tricky but I don't for one minute believe anyone in China right now would be up for challenging the status quo after listening to Star Dancer - as we all know what happens when they do. @Ken >>So when anyone visits China and goes to a DJ Bone or Surgeon gig, they're a bourgeois expat milking the fcuk out of everyone. I just find it hard to support a totalitarian theocracy Ken. m
