Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Mon, 27 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:

> Atte wrote:
> | On Sat, 25 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:
> | > Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin?
> |
> | I don't get it...
>
> Oh, yeah; I guess it's a somewhat obscure English metaphor. In common
> American  speech,  at  least,  "baloney"  isn't  just a sort of bland
> sausage; it is commonly used to mean things like "nonsense" or  "idle
> chatter"  or other such things which the speaker doesn't want to hear
> any more about.  Some slicing your baloney thin is used to  say  that
> someone  is making fine distinctions between things that aren't worth
> comparing at all.  When I've heard it, it has always been spoken in a
> humorous voice.  Sorta like saying that someone has far too much time
> on their hands.

Thanks ;-)
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

Atte wrote:
| On Sat, 25 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:
| > Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin?
|
| I don't get it...

Oh, yeah; I guess it's a somewhat obscure English metaphor. In common
American  speech,  at  least,  "baloney"  isn't  just a sort of bland
sausage; it is commonly used to mean things like "nonsense" or  "idle
chatter"  or other such things which the speaker doesn't want to hear
any more about.  Some slicing your baloney thin is used to  say  that
someone  is making fine distinctions between things that aren't worth
comparing at all.  When I've heard it, it has always been spoken in a
humorous voice.  Sorta like saying that someone has far too much time
on their hands.

There are probably some equally obscure ways  to  say  this  in  most
other languages.  The topic almost begs for witty metaphors.

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:

> Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin?

I don't get it...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

Atte wrote:
| On Fri, 24 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:
| > The point of ABC is to notate music, not music notation.
|
| Sorry, to interrupt, but why did you propose the i and j modifiers then?

Hey, i was my suggestion; Jack only gets credit/blame for j. ;-)

| That to me would be music notation and not notating music...

Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin?


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laura Conrad]

> "Atte" == Atte Andre Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Atte> I even ran lily (prior to knowing about your stuff) but the
Atte> wildly hacking of Han-Wen, and the resulting unstability of
Atte> the language made me put that on hold.

I understand the feeling.  I have been sticking with the stable
release, so my work isn't exposed to that, but I should probably start
using the development release, which they're making noises about
turning into the (next) stable release soon.  

Atte> How is the development now? Still crazy?

The last I checked the development version, it was pretty good, but
still missing a feature from the stable version that I like having.  I
think there's now a larger development community than there used to
be, and also a larger user community, so things are on the whole a
little saner.  

Atte> When I get the time some time later this summer I'll make
Atte> sure to check out abc2ly :-)

Let me know what you think.  I feel like it's pretty much a personal
computer program at the moment; I don't know of anyone else that's
using it beside me, but I really do find it pretty useful.  


-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
(If I haven't invited you to my party on June 2, I'm sure it's an oversight.)
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On 25 May 2002, Laura Conrad wrote:

> abc2ly enables you to get both printed and played music from abc.  I
> haven't fixed the ^F-|F problem yet, although it's on my list, but it
> certainly doesn't have the  "F > F" problem.

Hmm. I looked at your page quite some times, and thought what you do made
sense. I even ran lily (prior to knowing about your stuff) but the wildly
hacking of Han-Wen, and the resulting unstability of the language made me
put that on hold. How is the development now? Still crazy? When I get the
time some time later this summer I'll make sure to check out abc2ly :-)
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laura Conrad]

> "Atte" == Atte Andre Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Atte> On Sat, 25 May 2002, Laurie (ukonline) wrote:
>> "Atte Andre Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote"I don't care how my abc playes,
>> and looking back on the descussion about ^f-|f a couple of months ago
>> obviously abc2midi is only to be considered a toy, so I guess the rest of
>> the comunity feels the same as me..."
>> 
>> 
>> abc2midi is not the only application that makes sound from ABC files*!*

Atte> True! But as far as I know the only other app on linux is playabc, and
Atte> that should be pretty much outdated...

abc2ly enables you to get both printed and played music from abc.  I
haven't fixed the ^F-|F problem yet, although it's on my list, but it
certainly doesn't have the  "F > F" problem.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
(If I haven't invited you to my party on June 2, I'm sure it's an oversight.)
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Laurie (ukonline) wrote:

> "Atte Andre Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote"I don't care how my abc playes,
> and looking back on the descussion about ^f-|f a couple of months ago
> obviously abc2midi is only to be considered a toy, so I guess the rest of
> the comunity feels the same as me..."
>
> 
> abc2midi is not the only application that makes sound from ABC files*!*

True! But as far as I know the only other app on linux is playabc, and
that should be pretty much outdated...

Maybe one ought to brush off ones yacc/lex skills from way back and update
playabc to reflect the standard. Might even be useful for others to have
the standard reflected in theese tools?

> It matters!  Others do care.
> If you are playing with applications that don't play, may your eyes be sharp
> and your notes on pitch!

You might be right... I guess all I'm saying is that since no apps are
available to me, I grew to consider abc as a non-playable language. Others
obviously, as you mention, run wonderful apps which  makes it a different
story for them.
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laurie (ukonline)]

"Atte Andre Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote"I don't care how my abc playes,
and looking back on the descussion about ^f-|f a couple of months ago
obviously abc2midi is only to be considered a toy, so I guess the rest of
the comunity feels the same as me..."


abc2midi is not the only application that makes sound from ABC files*!*

My customers find that "proof-listening" is *much* more reliable than
proof-reading and the ability of Muse to make some noises that represent
what's on the screen aids enormously in eliminating errors.

In our band we used to have hand-written music which was full of misprints
that we only found out about when a stand-in musician played what was
written on the page!  When we put it all on the computer we eliminated
almost all of them.  It doesn't have to be a wonderfully impressive
performance to achieve this, indeed I almost don't want Muse to make
wonderful noises - I want it to help *people* to make wonderful noises.

To make a visual analogy, the music is a picture and the computer gives a
line drawing, but that is enough to show that Mary's left foot on the end of
her right arm.

It matters!  Others do care.
If you are playing with applications that don't play, may your eyes be sharp
and your notes on pitch!

Laurie

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:

> The point of ABC is to notate music, not music notation.

Sorry, to interrupt, but why did you propose the i and j modifiers then?
That to me would be music notation and not notating music...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Phil Taylor wrote:

> What is the significance of the two different note heads?

Standard... It seems that everybody is using x'ed noteheads for cymbals
and hihats, so if you just write it with regular noteheads it's gonne look
real funny to a drummer.

> If you want percussion abc to be played as well as displayed, you will have
> to bear in mind that there is a standard relationship between midi
> instruments and pitch.

I don't care how my abc playes, and looking back on the descussion about
^f-|f a couple of months ago obviously abc2midi is only to be considered a
toy, so I guess the rest of the comunity feels the same as me...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Jack Campin]

> Another thing that already has precedent in abc is a staff with other
> than  5 lines.  Someone (I wonder who ;-) has already implemented the
> medieval 4-line staff.  This could be generalized easily within  abc,
> by  something like "clef=perc lines=2".  The "lines=" clause would be
> generally useful for a number of other  kinds  of  notation.   If  we
> combine  this  with the "middle=" clause that maps abc's letter notes
> to the staff, we have a quite general way of defining  the  displayed
> staff and where to draw the notes. (For even-lined staffs, the middle
> note would be mapped to the middle space, of course.)

But that doesn't give you any natural way to represent the up/down
stemming convention.  In percussion music that's orthogonal to which
line the notehead goes on.  You *could* do it by having explicit
stem-direction signs, but that would be so noisy as to make a typical
snare drum score all but impossible to read or edit in source form.


> If we add to this a set of modifiers saying how to draw  note  heads,
> we'd  have a general notation that could represent all sorts of music
> notation.

The point of ABC is to notate music, not music notation.


> We might want to get together a  list  of  kinds  of  note
> heads,  and  give  them !...! symbols.

And what use would that be without a list of the noteheads themselves,
defined as graphical objects of some kind that programs could import?
It would be even less use without a mapping to performance instructions.

Not all percussion music does this in the same way.  Some people prefer
to use ordinary noteheads with funny accent signs.  Semantically it
doesn't matter, and it's just making ABC less widely usable to force a
graphical house style on all staff-notation representations of the same
musical information.

The idea behind the scheme I originally proposed is that it abstracts
away almost all the instrument-specific details; the music I mostly
had in mind didn't need them.  You have a very few "logical" instruments
(maybe different skins of the same drum, or the same skin hit in two
different ways) and you say which hand/stick hits it when.  End of story.
That covers everything needed for most percussion genres on the planet,
be it a Highland pipe band, a symphony orchestra or a gamelan.  Requires
no hard-to-port graphical elements and no hard-to-define semantics.


===  ===


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non-printing rests (was: Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...)

[Buddha Buck]

At 08:13 PM 05-24-2002 +0100, Phil Taylor you wrote:
> >   That said, how deeply is the invisible rest embedded in abc? I had
> >the impression it was introduced to get around the limitations of the
> >guitar chord mechanism.  If ever one could rationalize that...
>
>No, it's more important than that.  In multivoice abc, when you merge
>two voices onto one staff you often need to suppress rests in one of
>the voices, but they still have to play and they're still needed to
>align the voices correctly.  You would probably have even more need for
>this in a percussion score.

Hmmm, from the point of view that abc should describe the music, not 
describe how it looks in another notation, this doesn't work well for me.

My understanding of this means that if I had two voices:

K: clef=treble
[V:1 part=tenor] abza|bzab|zabz|
[V:2 part=alto]  efgz|efgz|efgz|

the stardard way to notate that one one staff would be to have the only 
displayed rest be the final rest, which is shared by both notes?

To get that in abc, one would have to write:

K: clef=treble
[V1: part=tenor] abxa|bxab|xabz
[V2: part=alto]   efgx|efgx|efgz

or something, to suppress lots of spurious rests?

But if I pull out and print the tenor part separately, I get garbage.  The 
way I want to play it is as in my first version.

Why can't software which is designed to print standard notation from ABC 
know it's not supposed to display rests where they would be superfluous 
when merging staves?


>Phil Taylor
>
>(Trying again:-)
>
>
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>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Phil Taylor]

John Walsh wrote;
>John Chambers writes:
>
>>Hmmm ...  Y'know; that might not be too difficult.  For the "x"  note
>>heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as
>>an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier
>>for this purpose.  Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e
>>would be an e with an 'x' for the note  head.   Either  clef=drum  or
>>clef=perc  might be good ways to show the clef.  I wonder how long it
>>would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter?
>>
>
>   Or even, taking a leaf from K:HP, K:perc or K:perc(ADor). Or
>whatever.  A drum clef is bound to be a bit special, to say the least.
>It could have its own special rules---no need to adopt _all_ the old
>rules, and carry over _all_ of the old notation, unless they're needed.
>Most things will carry over, but if something useful and intuitive in drum
>notation conflicts with something fairly obscure in the rest of abc, it
>shouldn't be too hard to decide between them.  (E.g., the drum clef could
>even use "x" for the note-heads and "*" for invisible rests...if they're
>needed. It won't break any existing tunes, since no-one has used the drum
>clef yet.)

That's probably the best approach IMHO.  It's similar to the way I do
Gregorian chant - if you add one of the eight Gregorian clefs to the
K: field you get a completely different notation with its own rules,
a four-line staff, square note heads and slur brackets used to
group the notes into neumes.

If you are going to use a five-line staff though you will need to
retain pitches to specify which line the note appears on, and if you
want to play it via midi you have to specify a pitch to get the
correct instrument.

>   That said, how deeply is the invisible rest embedded in abc? I had
>the impression it was introduced to get around the limitations of the
>guitar chord mechanism.  If ever one could rationalize that...

No, it's more important than that.  In multivoice abc, when you merge
two voices onto one staff you often need to suppress rests in one of
the voices, but they still have to play and they're still needed to
align the voices correctly.  You would probably have even more need for
this in a percussion score.

Phil Taylor

(Trying again:-)


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Phil Taylor]

>On Tue, 21 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote:

>All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official
>term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a
>"key" to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less
>include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played
>by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat).
>
>What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the
>precussion clef.

What is the significance of the two different note heads?

Apart from that, it seems to me that abc can already accomodate this, if
we add "percussion" to the list of clefs.

If you want percussion abc to be played as well as displayed, you will have
to bear in mind that there is a standard relationship between midi
instruments and
pitch.

Phil Taylor

(Trying again:-)


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

Atte writes:
| On Fri, 24 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:
| > This could be generalized easily within  abc,
| > by  something like "clef=perc lines=2".
|
| Nice! Remember that lines=0 is also a possibility! Having rhytmic accents
| without any line above other music. I actualli quite often miss this
| feature.

Yeah; one thing that programmers are always getting wrong is the zero
case.  In this example, the zero case is clearly valuable, and should
work.  It's obviously somewhat limited, but I can think of times when
I'd  like to use it.  In particular, it could come in very handy when
writing music education documents. You could produce little fragments
of  rhythmic  notation,  convert them to a PS or GIF file, and they'd
fit right into a line of text.


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laurie (ukonline)]

> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Laurie (ukonline) wrote:

> > Well as Muse already has diamond, cross square (oh, and the usual
ellipse)
> > for note heads, the answer is about minus three years for the
formatting,
> > GUI editing, printing, etc.

> How does the abc look for this in muse?

It doesn't!  Muse has its own format which has supported these things for
quite a while.

There is no point in trying to import it from ABC because there is no ABC
out there that has it - i.e. no "official" standard and no de facto standard
either and nobody notices the lack in Muse because there is no body of files
for people to try.

There is no point in exporting it from ABC because there's no place to
export it to.  If you want to export it to anopther copy of Muse then you
can do that much better in Muse format (which will remember a load of other
stuff about fonts, layout, view, staffs, tablature too).

If there is an official or a de facto standard, then so long as it's not too
peculiar, an hour or two of work should see Muse able to import it or export
it.  For instance, putting * in front of the note would be easy.

However that would give something that could *look* like some sort of
percussion score.  To make it play like one is another matter.

Incidentally I see in Tom Gerou and Linda Lusk's "Essential Dictionary of
Music Notation" that non-pitched notes are written as x for a basic duration
of 1/4 note (crotchet) and shorter but diamond for 1/2 and longer.  (By
"basic duration" I mean before considering dots, triplets etc).  Their work
seems to be as definitive as any (meaning not definitive at all, but a good
starting point).

Laurie

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laurie (ukonline)]

I think I'd be in favour of something that went in K: to say "what follows
are to be interpreted as percussion symbols".  It seems to me that what the
key signature does is to define how the following notes are to be
interpreted (this one is sharp, that one is not and so forth) and it's
merely a generalisation of this to say "this one is a floor-tom, that one is
a cymbal".

So my suggestion is
K:Percussion
or if you prefer
K:clef=Perc
or
K:Clef=P
and then everything is to be interpreted as percussion until further notice.
Players should make banging noises, formatters should use x for noteheads,
transposers should have a great time (*some* percussion is tuned!) and so
on.

Laurie

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laurie (ukonline)]

> There isn't much use of 'x' as a non-printing rest (yet).

There's enough that I implmented the damn thing and I don't want to start
unimplementing it and making exceptions.

Laurie

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:

> This could be generalized easily within  abc,
> by  something like "clef=perc lines=2".

Nice! Remember that lines=0 is also a possibility! Having rhytmic accents
without any line above other music. I actualli quite often miss this
feature.
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, John Chambers wrote:


> John Walsh's
> suggestion that K:perc (or maybe K:clef=perc) trigger  a  mapping  of
> 'x'  to this use is probably a good one.  There isn't much use of 'x'
> as a non-printing rest (yet).

Not? I think the exact same reasons for using them in tuned parts apply in
percussion...

> Would you want to use a non-printing rest in a drum part?  If so,  we
> might  want to discuss what do do with this use of 'x'.  It might not
> be too late to change it.

I'd much prefer changing the meaning of x, (although that would break 99
of my abc) over a quick'n'ugly fix like I still think it would be to have
x mean somethin else in percussion clef. I mean *I* could probably
remember to use it, but don't we all want a language that's as straight
fwd as possible?


> I've wondered if a better solution might be
> to  have  a general "don't print the next symbol" modifier.  Some abc
> programs already use [|] for a non-printing bar line.  If we were to,
> say, adopt 'i' (for "invisible") as a modifier,

Ok, with me. Much better than x=?

> With a drum kit, I'd think you would run into a lot of problems  like
> this,  since  each  line  really is a different "voice", and they can
> easily do things that overlap.

On the other hand drum notes are not that held, are thay :-) I think what
ever I could possible imagine would be possible in abcm2ps with the extra
noteheads + clef. I already did a few polyphonic settings, and it's not
that difficult...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

Laurie writes:
| > ...  I wonder how long it
| > would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter?
|
| Well as Muse already has diamond, cross square (oh, and the usual ellipse)
| for note heads, the answer is about minus three years for the formatting,
| GUI editing, printing, etc.

;-)

| For the playing - that might be a mess.  Is there a *generally* *agreed*
| meaning for these things? or is each drummer going to want it to look and
| play *his* (or her) way?

What I think Atte was hinting at is that it might not take  all  that
much  extending.   Drummers have basically adapted conventional staff
notation for their own purposes, and haven't made very  many  changes
to  the symbols.  The motive for doing this is obvious.  The printing
industry has a lot invested in conventional music notation.  Drummers
give  some  symbols  a slightly different interpretation, but you can
say the same about other instrumentalists.  Most  of  this  could  be
handled  naturally within abc by using a percussion clef as a sign to
reset a lot of defaults.

Another thing that already has precedent in abc is a staff with other
than  5 lines.  Someone (I wonder who ;-) has already implemented the
medieval 4-line staff.  This could be generalized easily within  abc,
by  something like "clef=perc lines=2".  The "lines=" clause would be
generally useful for a number of other  kinds  of  notation.   If  we
combine  this  with the "middle=" clause that maps abc's letter notes
to the staff, we have a quite general way of defining  the  displayed
staff and where to draw the notes. (For even-lined staffs, the middle
note would be mapped to the middle space, of course.)

If we add to this a set of modifiers saying how to draw  note  heads,
we'd  have a general notation that could represent all sorts of music
notation.  We might want to get together a  list  of  kinds  of  note
heads,  and  give  them !...! symbols.  We could then use some simple
macros to map them to however many 1-char modifiers we like.  And  we
could define a few "clef=" terms that load a set of such macros.

This doesn't seem like all that big a deal.  ABC is pretty  close  to
what we want already.

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

Atte writes:
| On Thu, 23 May 2002, John Walsh wrote:
| 
| > E.g., the drum clef could
| > even use "x" for the note-heads and "*" for invisible rests...if they're
| > needed. It won't break any existing tunes, since no-one has used the drum
| > clef yet.
|
| Possible, but IMHO ugly...

You're right; 'x' would be the best symbol.  With the  5-line  staff,
you'd still want to use A-Ga-g for the notes, to get the positioning.
But you'd need a way of saying to draw the note head as an 'x' rather
than  an  oval,  and 'x' is the obvious way to do this.  John Walsh's
suggestion that K:perc (or maybe K:clef=perc) trigger  a  mapping  of
'x'  to this use is probably a good one.  There isn't much use of 'x'
as a non-printing rest (yet).

Would you want to use a non-printing rest in a drum part?  If so,  we
might  want to discuss what do do with this use of 'x'.  It might not
be too late to change it. I've wondered if a better solution might be
to  have  a general "don't print the next symbol" modifier.  Some abc
programs already use [|] for a non-printing bar line.  If we were to,
say, adopt 'i' (for "invisible") as a modifier, then x becomes iz and
[|] becomes i|, and we can then use x for other purposes. I can think
of  a  few  other situations where we might like to have something in
the abc that would be played but not displayed.

Also, I wonder about trying to do a 5-line perc staff as a single abc
voice Does this actually work reasonably well? I'd think you'd have a
lot of the same sort of problems as with keyboard music in abc.   The
basic  problem  is that a drum kit and a keyboard both tend to have a
lot of little "voices" that appear and  disappear,  and  abc  has  no
simple way to show this.

A simple example for keyboards is a held note or  chord,  as  [B4D4],
and  while  this is held, you have G2F in a subsidiary voice starting
on count 2. This is easy to draw on a staff, and easy for one hand to
play  on  a  keyboard.  But how do you write it in abc?  The simplest
seems to be something like:
  [V:1] ... [B4D4] ...
  [V:2] ...  xG2F  ...

With a drum kit, I'd think you would run into a lot of problems  like
this,  since  each  line  really is a different "voice", and they can
easily do things that overlap.

But I suppose a bit of thought could usually reduce the drum part  to
only two or three "voices", so it wouldn't be that bad.  This is what
you have to do with keyboard music.

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Laurie (ukonline) wrote:

> Well as Muse already has diamond, cross square (oh, and the usual ellipse)
> for note heads, the answer is about minus three years for the formatting,
> GUI editing, printing, etc.

How does the abc look for this in muse?

> For the playing - that might be a mess.  Is there a *generally* *agreed*
> meaning for these things? or is each drummer going to want it to look and
> play *his* (or her) way?

Yes :-(
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Laurie (ukonline)]

> Hmmm ...  Y'know; that might not be too difficult.  For the "x"  note
> heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as
> an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier
> for this purpose.  Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e
> would be an e with an 'x' for the note  head.   Either  clef=drum  or
> clef=perc  might be good ways to show the clef.  I wonder how long it
> would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter?

Well as Muse already has diamond, cross square (oh, and the usual ellipse)
for note heads, the answer is about minus three years for the formatting,
GUI editing, printing, etc.

For the ABC, if people agree on the syntax it should be about an hour or two
of work.

For the playing - that might be a mess.  Is there a *generally* *agreed*
meaning for these things? or is each drummer going to want it to look and
play *his* (or her) way?

Laurie


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, John Walsh wrote:



> E.g., the drum clef could
> even use "x" for the note-heads and "*" for invisible rests...if they're
> needed. It won't break any existing tunes, since no-one has used the drum
> clef yet.

Possible, but IMHO ugly...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:

> Perhaps the merging Atte wants might be a display option, the way staff
> merging is in abcm2ps and BarFly, but it shouldn't be forced onto kinds
> of music where it's completely alien.  A Highland pipe band drum corps
> would most likely regard a piece of software that did it as totally
> unusable.

I totally agree (to some extend :-)) but please don't force me to write 10
singe line voices and merge them when I'm writing for a drumkit!! I wanna
write in fiveline systems.

All I'm saying is that what *I* think is lacking in the perc notation in
abc is extra noteheads + the percussion clef. *I* will never use single
lines, but I believe that people who want to needs the noteheads and the
clef anyways, right?
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Walsh]

John Chambers writes:

>Hmmm ...  Y'know; that might not be too difficult.  For the "x"  note
>heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as
>an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier
>for this purpose.  Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e
>would be an e with an 'x' for the note  head.   Either  clef=drum  or
>clef=perc  might be good ways to show the clef.  I wonder how long it
>would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter?
>

Or even, taking a leaf from K:HP, K:perc or K:perc(ADor). Or
whatever.  A drum clef is bound to be a bit special, to say the least.  
It could have its own special rules---no need to adopt _all_ the old
rules, and carry over _all_ of the old notation, unless they're needed.  
Most things will carry over, but if something useful and intuitive in drum
notation conflicts with something fairly obscure in the rest of abc, it
shouldn't be too hard to decide between them.  (E.g., the drum clef could
even use "x" for the note-heads and "*" for invisible rests...if they're
needed. It won't break any existing tunes, since no-one has used the drum
clef yet.)

That said, how deeply is the invisible rest embedded in abc? I had
the impression it was introduced to get around the limitations of the
guitar chord mechanism.  If ever one could rationalize that...

Cheers,
John Walsh  
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Jack Campin]

>> I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system,
>> and he said that he couldn't think of "any serious application" for
>> that.
> Modern Scottish snare drumming and the Swiss Basel style from which it 
> derives both use the single-line system which Jack Campin described. See
> http://www.fastlane.net/~rbeckham/basl2.html
> http://hjem.get2net.dk/aapd/drummers_archive/trommenoder.htm
> for examples.

So do all orchestral scores I've seen.  Pulling the first miniature
scores I can find off a shelf: Schoenberg, "Variationen fur Orchester",
Universal Edition UE 12196; Bartok, "Dance Suite", Boosey and Hawkes
B&H 16154.  The Bartok is a revealing example because there's one point
where there are four unpitched percussion parts going at once and they
*aren't* merged into one stave.

I have never seen an ethnomusicological percussion transcription that
used anything else, either.  The sort of example I had in mind was Neil
Sorrell's "Guide to the Gamelan", where pitched instruments are written
in 5-line staves and unpitched or one-pitch ones like the gong ageng in
one-line.  I haven't seen any example from the Islamic world that wasn't
two-line.

If a composer is using off-the-shelf music paper, five lines is the
only option (most people seem to just use the middle one).  But
publication is different, and reflects less ad hoc reasons.  And now
that any composer with a word processor can print music paper with
any layout they like, I'd be surprised if some don't deviate a lot
from the regularly spaced five-line grid.

I can't find any example of the drumkit notation Atte is talking about
among scores I own (nearest is the Henry Cowell example in John Cage's
"Notations").  I don't own any drumkit scores.  Looks like this notation
hasn't been taken up for anything else.

The more fundamental reason behind this is that in kit drumming the kit
is effectively a single instrument with relatively few components played
by a single musician.  That is not true in any other genre.  If you tried
to notate something like Stockhausen's "Zyklus" on a five-line stave you'd
have to change the line assignments every few seconds of elapsed time,
even though there's only one performer.  And for an African drum orchestra
piece where everybody only has one instrument, you aren't making it any
more readable by squashing five people's music into one stave.

Perhaps the merging Atte wants might be a display option, the way staff
merging is in abcm2ps and BarFly, but it shouldn't be forced onto kinds
of music where it's completely alien.  A Highland pipe band drum corps
would most likely regard a piece of software that did it as totally
unusable.


===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[John Chambers]

| On Tue, 21 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote:
|
| These two are from the april issue of modern drummer, the leading drumming
| magazine:
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/1.gif
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/2.gif
|
| These are from "Beyond Bop Drumming" by John Riley:
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/3.gif
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/4.gif
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/5.gif
|
| And the last three are from "Advanced concepts" by Kim Plainfield:
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/6.gif
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/7.gif
| http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/8.gif
|
| All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official
| term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a
| "key" to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less
| include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played
| by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat).
|
| What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the
| precussion clef.

Hmmm ...  Y'know; that might not be too difficult.  For the "x"  note
heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as
an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier
for this purpose.  Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e
would be an e with an 'x' for the note  head.   Either  clef=drum  or
clef=perc  might be good ways to show the clef.  I wonder how long it
would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter?

| I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system,
| and he said that he couldn't think of "any serious application" for that.
| He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion
| stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples.

I've seen a fair number of one- and two-line drum  staffs  in  Balkan
and  Middle-Eastern  music.   It makes sense there, where the typical
traditional band has percussion, but typically not very many kinds of
gadgets.

One-line rhythmic  notation  is  conventional  in  Balkan  music  for
showing  the  meter.   A  time signature like 25/16 is silly, because
there are many 25-count rhythms, and 25/16 doesn't distinguish  them.
Even in a simple case like 9/8, your typical Balkan musician will ask
"Which one?" and is not being facetious.  Instead, you'll see a  line
at the upper left that looks like:
  a3 a2a2 a3 a2a2 a2a2 a3 a2a2
except that rather than leger lines there's a single horizontal line.

(Trivia question: What's the best-known tune in that rhyuthm? ;-)

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Rick Davis]

> All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official
> term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a
> "key" to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less
> include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played
> by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat).

Pretty much what I'm used to seeing.

> What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the
> precussion clef.

Yep.

> I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system,
> and he said that he couldn't think of "any serious application" for that.
> He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion
> stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples.

Yep.

Having those symbols in abc would be nice for showing any percussion part.

Rick

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Ewan A. Macpherson]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system,
> and he said that he couldn't think of "any serious application" for
> that.

Modern Scottish snare drumming and the Swiss Basel style from which it 
derives both use the single-line system which Jack Campin described. See

http://www.fastlane.net/~rbeckham/basl2.html
http://hjem.get2net.dk/aapd/drummers_archive/trommenoder.htm

for examples.

cheers,
e.
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > > It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef
> > > for perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in
> > > a regular five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some
> > > drum-books that did it this way, and somewhere in the preface the
> > > author just defines what his "pitches" and symbols means.
> >
> > Yeah, but.  That's instrument-specific to the drumkit (middling number
> > of instruments), whereas the single-line notation works for any old
> > drums/gongs/blocks/cymbals in any numbers from one to hundreds.  Single-
> > line has more widespread use across a variety of genres.  ABC tries not
> > to be instrument-specific unless it can't be helped.
>
> Let me get back to you on this. I'll get some examples from drummers
> (jazz) and percussionists (classical) at school (Royal Conservatory, The
> Hague), assuming you wanna get some real pro info, and not another guy'
> (=me) guess?

Ok here you are:

These two are from the april issue of modern drummer, the leading drumming
magazine:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/1.gif
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/2.gif

These are from "Beyond Bop Drumming" by John Riley:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/3.gif
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/4.gif
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/5.gif

And the last three are from "Advanced concepts" by Kim Plainfield:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/6.gif
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/7.gif
http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/8.gif

All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official
term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a
"key" to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less
include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played
by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat).

What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the
precussion clef.

I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system,
and he said that he couldn't think of "any serious application" for that.
He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion
stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples.
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Buddha Buck]

At 03:08 PM 05-21-2002 +0100, Jack Campin you wrote:
> >> I suggested an approach to this in the keep-it-simple spirit of ABC
> >> some while ago.  A lot of percussion scores use a one-line staff for
> >> each instrument, with the note stems going up for the right hand and
> >> down for the left.  I suggested this could be done with a new kind
> >> of key signature (as there already is for Highland pipes), say "K:P"
> >> and two notes (as well as rests) "u" (stem-up, right) and "d" (stem-
> >> down, left).
> > It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef
> > for perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in
> > a regular five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some
> > drum-books that did it this way, and somewhere in the preface the
> > author just defines what his "pitches" and symbols means.
>
>Yeah, but.  That's instrument-specific to the drumkit (middling number
>of instruments), whereas the single-line notation works for any old
>drums/gongs/blocks/cymbals in any numbers from one to hundreds.  Single-
>line has more widespread use across a variety of genres.  ABC tries not
>to be instrument-specific unless it can't be helped.

ABC also doesn't use five-line or single-line staves.  ABC doesn't use 
staves at all.  So we have to find someway of representing percussion with 
ASCII in an ABC like manner

Here are a few options

% Using special "pitches", l and r, for the left and right hands...
% I forget it r and z conflict with anything existing
T: Ayyub
M: 2/4
Q: 1/16
K:None
|: rzzlrzlz | rzzlrzlz | rzzlrzlz | rzzlrzlz | rzzlrzlz | rzzlrzlz :|

% Using standard pitches, chosen for mnemonic content (b for right, g for left)
% This gives sort of an upstem-down stem feeling.
T: Ayyub
M: 2/4
Q: 1/16
K: none
|: bzzgbzgz | bzzgbzgz | bzzgbzgz | bzzgbzgz | bzzgbzgz :|

% A kit might have several instruments, or a single drum might be able to 
be hit in several ways
% so a single "left hand/right hand" pitch doesn't necessarily work.
% Let's try a pitch per instrument/technique.
T: Karsilama
M: 9/8
Q: 1/16
K:None
% Note: D - Dum, B - tek, c - ka
|: D2ccB2ccD2ccB2B2B2 :|

I'm not sure anyone has thought specifically what the appropriate standard 
should be for percussion in ABC, but it'll probably end up looking 
something like that.


>-
>Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
>tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
>food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music
>
>
>To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: 
>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[jr_davis]

Hi.

For what it's worth. as a percussionist for several decades, having played not only 
classical, but show tunes,rock, pop, as well as folk music, from my experience, which 
hand one uses for any particular note is usually left to the percussionist.  The only 
time I've ever seen consistent use of any notation of which hand to use is in teaching 
materials (which may be what  this is wanted for).  For "normal everyday" music, one 
is supposed to know the instrument they are playing, and therefore how to work out 
sticking or hand patterns themselves.  The only exception to that is if one wanted to 
notate sticking patterns for a drum corps.  

As for indicating which stick or hand, using the chord or abc2ps's interlinear lyric 
capability would work well for putting R or L under/above each note.  Or, one could, 
if there was only one sound/instrument (say a snare drum), put the different 
hand/stick on a different line of teh staff.  But for normal percussion notation, even 
for multiple instruments, a regular staff utilizing the different liners and spaces 
for the different instruments in the thing I usually have seen.  Even if the stems are 
all the same direction, it may not be the best, but it sure works.

So, that's my two-cents' worth.  ;-)

Rick
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:

> > It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef
> > for perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in
> > a regular five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some
> > drum-books that did it this way, and somewhere in the preface the
> > author just defines what his "pitches" and symbols means.
>
> Yeah, but.  That's instrument-specific to the drumkit (middling number
> of instruments), whereas the single-line notation works for any old
> drums/gongs/blocks/cymbals in any numbers from one to hundreds.  Single-
> line has more widespread use across a variety of genres.  ABC tries not
> to be instrument-specific unless it can't be helped.

Let me get back to you on this. I'll get some examples from drummers
(jazz) and percussionists (classical) at school (Royal Conservatory, The
Hague), assuming you wanna get some real pro info, and not another guy'
(=me) guess? I can scan some examples, put them on my sitespace and mail
the link here. How about that?

> How does the notation you're talking about manage to avoid stemming
> conflicts? - I presume it still uses stem direction to indicate hands?

Again that is dependant on the author, for instance I saw simply "L" or
"R" above notes...
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Jack Campin]

>> I suggested an approach to this in the keep-it-simple spirit of ABC
>> some while ago.  A lot of percussion scores use a one-line staff for
>> each instrument, with the note stems going up for the right hand and
>> down for the left.  I suggested this could be done with a new kind
>> of key signature (as there already is for Highland pipes), say "K:P"
>> and two notes (as well as rests) "u" (stem-up, right) and "d" (stem-
>> down, left).
> It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef
> for perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in
> a regular five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some
> drum-books that did it this way, and somewhere in the preface the
> author just defines what his "pitches" and symbols means.

Yeah, but.  That's instrument-specific to the drumkit (middling number
of instruments), whereas the single-line notation works for any old
drums/gongs/blocks/cymbals in any numbers from one to hundreds.  Single-
line has more widespread use across a variety of genres.  ABC tries not
to be instrument-specific unless it can't be helped.

How does the notation you're talking about manage to avoid stemming
conflicts? - I presume it still uses stem direction to indicate hands?

With a bit of deviousness you can already do a five-line notation
in BarFly and have it play back correctly, and even include stem-
direction coding for the hands.  But it would be so hard to explain
what was going on that I'd rather not.  (At one point I was tempted
to try to notate something like Varese's "Ionization", but locating
the Quicktime codes for all the instruments it needs seems to be
impossible, even though they are probably all in there somewhere).


-
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Atte Andre Jensen]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote:

> >> Is there some abc software for percussion notation?
> > Except for standard stuff like the Xs or other "strange" symbols
> > for cymbals, etc. and except for rolls, I'm not sure there is
> > anything you couldn't notate with standard ABC.  Maybe there's
> > something I'm forgetting.
>
> Which hand whacks what when.
>
> I suggested an approach to this in the keep-it-simple spirit of ABC
> some while ago.  A lot of percussion scores use a one-line staff for
> each instrument, with the note stems going up for the right hand and
> down for the left.  I suggested this could be done with a new kind
> of key signature (as there already is for Highland pipes), say "K:P"
> and two notes (as well as rests) "u" (stem-up, right) and "d" (stem-
> down, left).

It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef for
perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in a regular
five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some drum-books that did
it this way, and somewhere in the preface the author just defines what his
"pitches" and symbols means.
-- 
love, peace & harmony
Atte

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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[Jack Campin]

>> Is there some abc software for percussion notation?
> Except for standard stuff like the Xs or other "strange" symbols
> for cymbals, etc. and except for rolls, I'm not sure there is
> anything you couldn't notate with standard ABC.  Maybe there's
> something I'm forgetting.

Which hand whacks what when.

I suggested an approach to this in the keep-it-simple spirit of ABC
some while ago.  A lot of percussion scores use a one-line staff for
each instrument, with the note stems going up for the right hand and
down for the left.  I suggested this could be done with a new kind
of key signature (as there already is for Highland pipes), say "K:P"
and two notes (as well as rests) "u" (stem-up, right) and "d" (stem-
down, left).

Some instruments comprise one object hit by both hands, others use
several that either hand might hit.  There doesn't seem to be any
alternative to splitting each object into two separate voices if
either hand might hit it.

That gives you something like this, using an extension of BarFly's
voice syntax, confining the "K:P" declarations to the header (a voice
is never going to switch between being percussion and something else
in mid-piece, is it?).  The book has one ordinary 5-line staff and
one single-line percussion staff.  The "merge" command says to put
both hands on one staff (not everybody does that - Turkish practice
seems to be to use one line for each hand).

X:1
T:749
O:Petrijanec, Croatia
B:Vinko Zganec: Narodne Popijevke Hrvatskog Zagorja (Zagreb, 1950)
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=80
V:1
V:2 K:P   % drum right
V:3 K:P merge % drum left
K:G
V:1 (d/e/d) .B.B   |(d/e/d) .c.c|(df/).f/ (f.e)   |(e.d)  .d.d   |
V:2  u   z   u2| z   u   z2 | uz   u2 | z uz2|
V:3  z   d   z2| d   z   d2 | zd   z2 | d zd2|
%
V:1 (d/e/d) .B.B   |(d/e/d) .c.c|.d.d (d/e/f) | gg/g/  g z   |
V:2  u   z   u2| z   u   z2 | u z  u2 | zu z2|
V:3  z   d   z2| d   z   d2 | z d  z2 | dz d2|
%
V:1  DD (D/E/F)|.G(G/A/  B/A/.B)|.c.A (A/^G/A)|.B.G   (G/F/G)|
V:2  uz  u2| z u z2 | u z  u2 | z uz2|
V:3  zd  z2| d z d2 | z d  z2 | d zd2|
%
V:1  DD (D/E/F)|.G(G/A/  B/A/.B)|.c.A (A/B/A) |.G(G/F/ G)z  |]
V:2  uz  u2| z u z2 | u z  u2 | z uz2   |]
V:3  zd  z2| d z d2 | z d  z2 | d zd2   |]

This covers a vast range of percussion idioms, from Highland pipe bands
to djembe ensembles to Turkish davul/zurna music to south-east Asian
gamelan.  It does NOT cover things like rattles and scrapers, where you
can continuously vary the sound, so it won't do for Latin American music.
One thing at a time...

===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...

[jr_davis]

Is there some abc software for percussion notation?

===
Percussion notation - now *that's* a concept. ;-)

Except for standard stuff like the Xs or other "strange" symbols for cymbals, etc. and 
except for rolls, I'm not sure there is anything you couldn't notate with standard 
ABC.  Maybe there's something I'm forgetting.

Rick
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