date:20200426

I'm guessing you weren't wearing the PPE that the guy in the video was 
wearing?


On 4/26/20 6:10 PM, James Howard wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-w-23IpwU

It was basically the same concept as this thing only a lot bigger and 
put out lots more smoke. I had no idea they still made things like this.


*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *James Howard
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:07 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

30 some years ago my brother and I got a surplus fogger somewhere.  I 
don’t remember exactly where we got it but it had been used by either 
the DNR or the county to fog parks. I don’t know how they used it but 
we mounted it to the roof of an old Jeep that I had at the time and 
drove around my parent’s property.  It was beautiful.  I had two 
barrels (for lack of a better term) and the whole unit was probably a 
bit more than 6 feet long.  It looked like a double barreled tank 
turret mounted to the roof of the Jeep.  It “ran” on diesel fuel.  I 
don’t remember how you started it but it sounded like a high rpm 
diesel engine with no muffler.  We used malathion or whatever the 
nasty bug killer that was available back then mixed either with diesel 
or kerosene I think.  When it worked it put out an awesome amount of 
fog.  We would drive around the property and pretty much get rid of 
mosquitos and deer flies for at least a few days.


I wish I had pictures of it……..  actually, it’s probably better that 
we didn’t take any…..


I don’t know if anything like that might still be around but they put 
out tons of smoke/fog (might as well be honest, smog with poison in it!).


*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:26 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies 
live in jungles...


It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.

Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.

In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?

Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for 
hours?


Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a 
treatment last?




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Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

2020-04-26 Thread Jaime Solorza

Interestingwe have those lil buggers here as well...
My friend posted this
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10218062452166209=1034032335

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 6:26 PM  wrote:

> At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live
> in jungles...
> It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.
> Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.
> In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.
>
> Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?
> Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for
> hours?
> Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a
> treatment last?
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

May risk a trip to tractor supply as their web site says they have the juice.  
I can perhaps modify the exhaust of my side by side atv and try the same thing. 

From: James Howard 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

Okay.  I’m done looking now but this is like a lot newer version of what we had:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfM0QZ0UUM=174s

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:11 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-w-23IpwU

It was basically the same concept as this thing only a lot bigger and put out 
lots more smoke. I had no idea they still made things like this.

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:07 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

30 some years ago my brother and I got a surplus fogger somewhere.  I don’t 
remember exactly where we got it but it had been used by either the DNR or the 
county to fog parks.  I don’t know how they used it but we mounted it to the 
roof of an old Jeep that I had at the time and drove around my parent’s 
property.  It was beautiful.  I had two barrels (for lack of a better term) and 
the whole unit was probably a bit more than 6 feet long.  It looked like a 
double barreled tank turret mounted to the roof of the Jeep.  It “ran” on 
diesel fuel.  I don’t remember how you started it but it sounded like a high 
rpm diesel engine with no muffler.  We used malathion or whatever the nasty bug 
killer that was available back then mixed either with diesel or kerosene I 
think.  When it worked it put out an awesome amount of fog.  We would drive 
around the property and pretty much get rid of mosquitos and deer flies for at 
least a few days.

I wish I had pictures of it……..  actually, it’s probably better that we didn’t 
take any…..

I don’t know if anything like that might still be around but they put out tons 
of smoke/fog (might as well be honest, smog with poison in it!).

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:26 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live in 
jungles...

It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.  

Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.  

In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?  

Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for hours?

Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a treatment 
last?

Total Control Panel
   Login

  To: ja...@litewire.net

  From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

Okay.  I'm done looking now but this is like a lot newer version of what we had:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfM0QZ0UUM=174s

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:11 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-w-23IpwU

It was basically the same concept as this thing only a lot bigger and put out 
lots more smoke. I had no idea they still made things like this.

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:07 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

30 some years ago my brother and I got a surplus fogger somewhere.  I don't 
remember exactly where we got it but it had been used by either the DNR or the 
county to fog parks.  I don't know how they used it but we mounted it to the 
roof of an old Jeep that I had at the time and drove around my parent's 
property.  It was beautiful.  I had two barrels (for lack of a better term) and 
the whole unit was probably a bit more than 6 feet long.  It looked like a 
double barreled tank turret mounted to the roof of the Jeep.  It "ran" on 
diesel fuel.  I don't remember how you started it but it sounded like a high 
rpm diesel engine with no muffler.  We used malathion or whatever the nasty bug 
killer that was available back then mixed either with diesel or kerosene I 
think.  When it worked it put out an awesome amount of fog.  We would drive 
around the property and pretty much get rid of mosquitos and deer flies for at 
least a few days.

I wish I had pictures of it  actually, it's probably better that we 
didn't take any.

I don't know if anything like that might still be around but they put out tons 
of smoke/fog (might as well be honest, smog with poison in it!).

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:26 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live in 
jungles...
It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.
Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.
In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?
Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for hours?
Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a treatment 
last?

Total Control Panel

Login

To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com

You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-w-23IpwU

It was basically the same concept as this thing only a lot bigger and put out 
lots more smoke. I had no idea they still made things like this.

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:07 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

30 some years ago my brother and I got a surplus fogger somewhere.  I don't 
remember exactly where we got it but it had been used by either the DNR or the 
county to fog parks.  I don't know how they used it but we mounted it to the 
roof of an old Jeep that I had at the time and drove around my parent's 
property.  It was beautiful.  I had two barrels (for lack of a better term) and 
the whole unit was probably a bit more than 6 feet long.  It looked like a 
double barreled tank turret mounted to the roof of the Jeep.  It "ran" on 
diesel fuel.  I don't remember how you started it but it sounded like a high 
rpm diesel engine with no muffler.  We used malathion or whatever the nasty bug 
killer that was available back then mixed either with diesel or kerosene I 
think.  When it worked it put out an awesome amount of fog.  We would drive 
around the property and pretty much get rid of mosquitos and deer flies for at 
least a few days.

I wish I had pictures of it  actually, it's probably better that we 
didn't take any.

I don't know if anything like that might still be around but they put out tons 
of smoke/fog (might as well be honest, smog with poison in it!).

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:26 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live in 
jungles...
It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.
Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.
In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?
Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for hours?
Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a treatment 
last?

Total Control Panel

Login

To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com

You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

30 some years ago my brother and I got a surplus fogger somewhere.  I don't 
remember exactly where we got it but it had been used by either the DNR or the 
county to fog parks.  I don't know how they used it but we mounted it to the 
roof of an old Jeep that I had at the time and drove around my parent's 
property.  It was beautiful.  I had two barrels (for lack of a better term) and 
the whole unit was probably a bit more than 6 feet long.  It looked like a 
double barreled tank turret mounted to the roof of the Jeep.  It "ran" on 
diesel fuel.  I don't remember how you started it but it sounded like a high 
rpm diesel engine with no muffler.  We used malathion or whatever the nasty bug 
killer that was available back then mixed either with diesel or kerosene I 
think.  When it worked it put out an awesome amount of fog.  We would drive 
around the property and pretty much get rid of mosquitos and deer flies for at 
least a few days.

I wish I had pictures of it  actually, it's probably better that we 
didn't take any.

I don't know if anything like that might still be around but they put out tons 
of smoke/fog (might as well be honest, smog with poison in it!).

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:26 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live in 
jungles...
It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.
Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.
In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?
Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for hours?
Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a treatment 
last?

Total Control Panel

Login


To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.



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[AFMUG] OT fogging insects

At my shop it is biting gnat/midge/no-see-um season.  How do pygmies live in 
jungles...
It is pretty miserably going outside at certain times of the day.  
Even mosquito netting over face is not fine enough to keep them out.  
In your ears, hair, nose, eyes.  Arrgh.

Anyone have any experience with larger insect foggers?  
Perhaps something I can put on an ATV and kill them or repel them for hours?
Do they work, what kind of juice do you put in them?  How long does a treatment 
last?-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal


  
  
You also have a relatively small population at only a little over
  3 million, and only a couple hundred thousand in Salt Lake, which
  is the largest. That means that your most dense areas are not all
  that dense, and there is a significant part of the population
  spread around and already physically separated to some degree.
Contrast that with California, with a population of 40 million,
  and around 7 million in just the Bay Area, which is kind of like
  one big city (although it's not).
Logistics are different everywhere.


bp



On 4/26/2020 10:12 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  
  

  I think we are pretty good at top down organization and
rule following.  The LDS church has a huge amount of sway
over the state government.  Actually at all levels.  The
good thing is that the upper echelons of the LDS church is
populated by highly educated people.  The president of the
church is a former world renown heart surgeon.   If he
mentions something, people listen... kinda like Charles
Schwab.
   
  

   
  
From: Robert 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
  

 
  
  Utah
  seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons
  understand disease...  

On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  

  Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for
Coronavirus...
  

   
  
From: Robert 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07
  AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not
  normal
  

 
  
  There was just an interesting article
  written that lamented how inaccurate coroners have
  been on cause of death for the whole existence of
  coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they
  get better now?

On 4/26/20 8:23 AM,
  Bill Prince wrote:


  There is so much we don't know
  for a number of frustrating reasons. One is
  the asymptomatic infection problem, and how
  long that lasts. The other is that the
  symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and
  sometimes other things. One headline that
  caught my attention this morning is that Santa
  Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of
  flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have
  been reclassified as COVID-19 after they
  tested for the virus.
  I snipped this from the
  article, and it pretty well sums up the
  situation at present:
  
“We’ll never, ever know
  how many people contracted the coronavirus
  in San Clara County or California or the
  U.S. That ship has sailed. Even
  self-reporting would be inherently
  inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara
  County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our
  only hope of getting a decent history of
  it is by counting the dead. I’m really
  disappointed that coroners all over the
  country haven’t done a better job. They’ve
  been signing death certificates as strokes
  or heart attacks or natural causes.”

  
   
  bp



  On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM,
Robert wrote:
  
  Does it bug anyone else that
  this "doctor" says that we aren't treating
  this like other epidemics and quarantining the
  sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal


  
  
Getting your inner Yoda on?
If I were to speculate (and I am), I would guess that New Orleans
  had a bunch of visitors from all over the place during Mardi Gras.
  Everyone swapped droplets during the party, then everyone went
  home to spread it elsewhere. Some of the party-hardy locals got
  infected and swapped a bunch of droplets among their peers, and
  that may be where we are.


bp



On 4/26/2020 11:20 AM, Chuck McCown
  wrote:


  
  Louisiana surprised me.  Not many things do they excel in.
   Propositional ending intentional...
  
  Sent from my iPhone
  
On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Bill
  Prince  wrote:
  

  
  

  
  Utah is up there, but not in the lead. Rhode Island is #1
in testing, followed (in order) by New York, Massachusetts,
Louisiana, then Utah.
  
  
  
  
  
  bp



  On 4/26/2020 9:57 AM, Steve Jones
wrote:
  
  

Why is utah so for ahead on the testing? Is
  it something to do with Mormonism and the teamwork thing
  or unrelated?


  On Sun, Apr 26, 2020,
11:16 AM  wrote:
  
  

  

  Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for
Coronavirus...
  

   
  
From: Robert

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020
  10:07 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang,
  not normal
  

 
  
  There
  was just an interesting article written that
  lamented how inaccurate coroners have been on
  cause of death for the whole existence of
  coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would
  they get better now?

On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


  There is so much we don't
  know for a number of frustrating reasons.
  One is the asymptomatic infection problem,
  and how long that lasts. The other is that
  the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and
  sometimes other things. One headline that
  caught my attention this morning is that
  Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as
  "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9
  (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as
  COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.
  I snipped this from the
  article, and it pretty well sums up the
  situation at present:
  
“We’ll never, ever
  know how many people contracted the
  coronavirus in San Clara County or
  California or the U.S. That ship has
  sailed. Even self-reporting would be
  inherently inaccurate or impossible,”
  Santa Clara County Supervisor Dave
  Cortese said. “Our only hope of
  getting a decent history of it is by
  counting the dead. I’m really
  disappointed that coroners all over
  the country haven’t done a better job.
  They’ve been signing death
  certificates as strokes or heart
  attacks or natural causes.”

  
   
  bp



  On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
  
  Does it bug anyone
  else that this "doctor" says that we
  aren't treating this like other epidemics

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

2020-04-26 Thread Robert Andrews


At least they aren't politicians...

On 04/26/2020 11:18 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
The women are there and more prominent then in times past but they still 
cannot hold the priesthood.  So until that changes it will be run mostly 
by white old men.


Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Robert  wrote:

 Good group to rely on, but women?

On 4/26/20 10:22 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Here is the roster of the 14 guys at the top and their former 
professions:

Russell M. Nelson *Famous heart surgeon*
Dallin H. OaksJustice of Utah Supreme Court
M. Russell Ballard Ballard Motor Company – Businessman
Jeffrey R. Holland President BYU
Henry B. Eyring President Ricks – Harvard Business School alum, his 
dad was a famous Physicist
Dieter F. Uchtdorf Senior VP of Flight Operations Lufthansa  Former 
fighter pilot

David A. Bednar President Ricks (BYU Idaho)  Business school professor
Quentin L. Cook Corporate Attorney
D. Todd ChristoffersonCorporate Attorney
Donale Rasband Business Executive
Gary E. Stevenson Business Executive
Dale G. Renlund *Cardiologist, Professor, Medical Director*
Gerrit W. Gong. Professor – Political science  US State Department
Ulisses Soraes Auditor
Note:  Not a single doctor of theology or philosophy...
*From:* ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:12 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
I think we are pretty good at top down organization and rule 
following.  The LDS church has a huge amount of sway over the state 
government.  Actually at all levels.  The good thing is that the 
upper echelons of the LDS church is populated by highly educated 
people.  The president of the church is a former world renown heart 
surgeon.   If he mentions something, people listen... kinda like 
Charles Schwab.

*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons 
understand disease...


On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
There was just an interesting article written that lamented how 
inaccurate coroners have been on cause of death for the whole 
existence of coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get 
better now?


On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. 
One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. 
The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and 
sometimes other things. One headline that caught my attention this 
morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying 
of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified 
as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.


I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the 
situation at present:


/“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the
coronavirus in San Clara County or California or the U.S. That
ship has sailed. Even self-reporting would be inherently
inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor Dave
Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it
is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners
all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been
signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or
natural causes.”/

bp


On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't 
treating this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when 
Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period 
of being contagious _without_ symptoms.

 I was agreeing with him up until that point.
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same 
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done 
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a 
good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the 
testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people 
who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This 
may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but 
it's still NOT science.
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the 
results of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I 
want to hear the same information done from actual scientific 
method testing.   Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths 
which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K deaths and the 
curve ISN'T going down. It seems to have leveled off but is still 
going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to 
the model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we 
could start making a gain on the other models.   I think this 
is yet another example of someone, this

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

I believe the FCC or its predecessor was actually created with radio in mind.  
Of course, TV and the Internet did not exist then.

 

It often seems to me that the current FCC is on a mission to get rid of 
broadcast radio and TV, which puzzles me.  They may die a natural death, but 
why is it government policy to hasten their demise?  Just so they can clear and 
auction the spectrum?  If it was government policy to kill off obsolete 
technologies, there would be no FAX machines.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:48 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

 

Agreed, but unfortunately guvment doesn't work that way





On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

 

Seems like in times where we're overturning old, silly decisions, there should 
be more usage of 101 in 74 space.

 

Not the tiny channels they have either, but properly good sized channels.

 



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Tim Hardy" mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:55:18 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

That’s what Part 101 licensees back in the day requested but NAB and the 
broadcasters raised hell.  So, we are left with exclusion zones wherever 
there’s a licensed eng area.

 

 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

 

I meant Part 74 vs. part 101.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
achieve.

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:



Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio?

 

Why can't it all just be part 101?



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Tim Hardy" mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible.  They are not eligible under Part 74.

 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz

 

On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

 

Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

No, “women” is not an abbreviation for “white old men”.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:19 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

The women are there and more prominent then in times past but they still cannot 
hold the priesthood.  So until that changes it will be run mostly by white old 
men.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

 Good group to rely on, but women?

On 4/26/20 10:22 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

Here is the roster of the 14 guys at the top and their former professions:

Russell M. NelsonFamous heart surgeon

Dallin H. OaksJustice of Utah Supreme Court

M. Russell BallardBallard Motor Company – Businessman

Jeffrey R. HollandPresident BYU

Henry B. EyringPresident Ricks – Harvard Business School alum, his dad 
was a famous Physicist

Dieter F. UchtdorfSenior VP of Flight Operations Lufthansa  Former fighter 
pilot

David A. BednarPresident Ricks (BYU Idaho)  Business school professor

Quentin L. CookCorporate Attorney

D. Todd ChristoffersonCorporate Attorney

Donale RasbandBusiness Executive

Gary E. Stevenson Business Executive

Dale G. RenlundCardiologist, Professor, Medical Director

Gerrit W. Gong.Professor – Political science  US State Department

Ulisses Soraes Auditor

Note:  Not a single doctor of theology or philosophy...

From: ch...@wbmfg.com   

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:12 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I think we are pretty good at top down organization and rule following.  The 
LDS church has a huge amount of sway over the state government.  Actually at 
all levels.  The good thing is that the upper echelons of the LDS church is 
populated by highly educated people.  The president of the church is a former 
world renown heart surgeon.   If he mentions something, people listen... kinda 
like Charles Schwab.

From: Robert 

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons understand 
disease...  

On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...

From: Robert 

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners...   
Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?

On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the 
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that the 
symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present:

“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San Clara 
County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even self-reporting 
would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor 
Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it is by 
counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over the country 
haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates as strokes 
or heart attacks or natural causes.”

bp

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating this 
like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER 
epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of the 
testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) which 
is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, 
because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people who 
get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the 
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results of 
the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Probably not, but we're had a lot of changes the last 10 years that we would 
have thought impossible 15 - 20 years ago. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:47:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Agreed, but unfortunately guvment doesn't work that way 





On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Seems like in times where we're overturning old, silly decisions, there should 
be more usage of 101 in 74 space. 


Not the tiny channels they have either, but properly good sized channels. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy" < thardy...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:55:18 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

That’s what Part 101 licensees back in the day requested but NAB and the 
broadcasters raised hell. So, we are left with exclusion zones wherever there’s 
a licensed eng area. 






On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


I meant Part 74 vs. part 101. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown" < ch...@wbmfg.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
achieve. 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 







Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio? 


Why can't it all just be part 101? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy" < thardy...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible. They are not eligible under Part 74. 





On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz 





On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Caleb Knauer" < cknauer.li...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been 
involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers 
and fade margins. Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big 
voice with the feds. AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle. 
But we shall see. 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on rain 
> fade characteristics. And there are many existing links. Just saying your 
> spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and the 
> service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart < 
> timreichh...@hometowncable.net > wrote: 
> 
> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Date: 04/23/20 10:14 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> So did WISPA make this happen? Or was it the millions these companies dropped 
> that made it happen? 
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen < ericlniel...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Agreed, but unfortunately guvment doesn't work that way

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> Seems like in times where we're overturning old, silly decisions, there 
> should be more usage of 101 in 74 space.
> 
> Not the tiny channels they have either, but properly good sized channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Tim Hardy" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:55:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> That’s what Part 101 licensees back in the day requested but NAB and the 
> broadcasters raised hell.  So, we are left with exclusion zones wherever 
> there’s a licensed eng area.
> 
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Mike Hammett  > wrote:
> 
> I meant Part 74 vs. part 101.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  >
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
> achieve.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett  > wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio?
> 
> Why can't it all just be part 101?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Tim Hardy" mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>>
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  >
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
> licensees would be eligible.  They are not eligible under Part 74.
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy  > wrote:
> 
> Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz
> 
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett  > wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Caleb Knauer"  >
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  >
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been
> involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers
> and fade margins.  Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big
> voice with the feds.  AFC feels like it could be quite the

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

2020-04-26 Thread Steve Jones

That's my preferred solution. I do t like hardware being tweaked to
function in its operational edge. Dirty noise

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 11:24 AM Kurt Fankhauser 
wrote:

> not many, a different post said the AF5XHD/LTU line can go up to 6200mhz
> but that's it. Sounds like will need all new hardware to be produced by the
> manufactures which I am ok with.
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:46 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I'm happy they're doing this.
>>
>> My only question is which devices can do 6ghz with just a firmware
>> change and which ones need new hardware?
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2020 5:37 PM, Caleb Knauer wrote:
>> > ULS is gonna have to get way more gerbils, it barely runs on a good day.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:25 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>> >> Everyone on the unlicensed side is now claiming that this was their
>> baby, but if you really want to do know where the influence came from -
>> follow the lobbying and follow the money.  Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft,
>> Apple & Google spent over $16 million in 1st Qtr of 2020 - this thing
>> didn't spring up over night and the $$$ spent on this over the last five
>> years is astronomical.  It took a ton of lobbying at both the FCC and
>> Congress just to get to the Rule Making process that started on Oct 1,
>> 2018, and the RM garnered over 700 comments, reply comments and ex-parte
>> filings.
>> >>
>> >> The success / failure of this relies heavily on the AFC to adequately
>> protect both existing and new incumbents.  Standard power devices must
>> check-in with the AFC at least once a day.  The AFC will rely solely on ULS
>> (per FCC requirement) and it is widely recognized that ULS has major
>> problems and deficiencies - in fact, the WTB will be issuing a Public
>> Notice reminding licensees of their duty to ensure that their licenses are
>> complete and accurate.  The AFC systems must go through a testing and
>> certification process and this will further delay things.  Its going to
>> take some time for all of this before devices that require the AFC to be
>> used.
>> >>
>> >> FYI - in a letter dated January 2018, the RLAN group that includes
>> Apple, Broadcom, Cisco and HP projects over 958,062,017 unlicensed devices
>> at 6 GHz.
>> >>
>> >> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Tim Withrow via AF 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> After posting this I seen an article that said they (WFA) was the
>> crusader. Wispa seems to be a member of that group as well.
>> >> https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-6
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 Tim Reichhart  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in
>> it WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> >> Date: 04/23/20 10:14
>> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> >>
>> >> So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies
>> dropped that made it happen?
>> >>
>> >> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name
>> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of
>> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power
>> (WiFi6) usage.
>> >>
>> >> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC
>> out of the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the
>> common man/small business.
>> >>
>> >> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> FCC has total authority over these bands.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser <
>> lists.wavel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act
>> of Congress?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser <
>> er...@northcentraltower.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> yes you are right.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Erich Kaiser
>> >> North Central Tower
>> >> er...@northcentraltower.com
>> >> Office: 815-570-3101
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> More like 4.9 to 7.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: AF  On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
>> >> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean
>> heavily, so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum
>> proposed will likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability
>> standpoint it will be tough to count on a

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Prepositional...

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 12:20 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Louisiana surprised me.  Not many things do they excel in.  Propositional 
> ending intentional...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Utah is up there, but not in the lead. Rhode Island is #1 in testing, 
>> followed (in order) by New York, Massachusetts, Louisiana, then Utah.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> bp
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/26/2020 9:57 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>> Why is utah so for ahead on the testing? Is it something to do with 
>>> Mormonism and the teamwork thing or unrelated?
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 11:16 AM  wrote:
 Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
  
 From: Robert
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
 To: af@af.afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
  
 There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
 coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of 
 coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?
 
> On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
> There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One 
> is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other 
> is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other 
> things. One headline that caught my attention this morning is that Santa 
> Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 
> (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for 
> the virus.
> 
> I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation 
> at present:
> 
> “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
> Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
> self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
> County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent 
> history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that 
> coroners all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been 
> signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”
> 
>  
> 
> bp
> 
> 
>> On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
>> Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
>> this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS 
>> NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious 
>> _without_ symptoms. 
>>  I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
>> Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation 
>> of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including 
>> myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to 
>> extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing has not been 
>> randomly done across gen pop!   The people who get tested typically are 
>> those who exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the number who have 
>> gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
>>  He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the 
>> results of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to 
>> hear the same information done from actual scientific method testing.   
>> Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...  
>>  Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to 
>> have leveled off but is still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  
>> We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social distancing.   Without 
>> social distancing we could start making a gain on the other models.  
>>  I think this is yet another example of someone, this time a doctor, who 
>> looks at the results of successful social distancing and says it's 
>> overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% 
>> recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if 
>> you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time 
>> from not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but 
>> this is an "agenda" again...
>> 
>> IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
>> 
>>> On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
>>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Steve, the usual solution is for nervous

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Louisiana surprised me.  Not many things do they excel in.  Propositional 
ending intentional...

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Bill Prince  wrote:
> 
> 
> Utah is up there, but not in the lead. Rhode Island is #1 in testing, 
> followed (in order) by New York, Massachusetts, Louisiana, then Utah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 4/26/2020 9:57 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>> Why is utah so for ahead on the testing? Is it something to do with 
>> Mormonism and the teamwork thing or unrelated?
>> 
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 11:16 AM  wrote:
>>> Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
>>>  
>>> From: Robert
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>>>  
>>> There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
>>> coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners... 
>>>   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?
>>> 
>>> On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
 There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is 
 the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is 
 that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. 
 One headline that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara 
 County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 
 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the 
 virus.
 
 I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation 
 at present:
 
 “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
 Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
 self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
 County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent 
 history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that 
 coroners all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been 
 signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”
 
  
 
 bp
 
 
 On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
> Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
> this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT 
> LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious 
> _without_ symptoms. 
>  I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
> Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation 
> of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including 
> myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate 
> to the gen pop from, because the testing has not been randomly done 
> across gen pop!   The people who get tested typically are those who 
> exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the number who have gotten it OR 
> over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
>  He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results 
> of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the 
> same information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he 
> says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we 
> are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have 
> leveled off but is still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 
> 1/4+ the way to the model with social distancing.   Without social 
> distancing we could start making a gain on the other models.   I 
> think this is yet another example of someone, this time a doctor, who 
> looks at the results of successful social distancing and says it's 
> overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% 
> recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if you 
> throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
> not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this 
> is an "agenda" again...
> 
> IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
> 
> On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in 
>> “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26
>> 
>>  
>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

The women are there and more prominent then in times past but they still cannot 
hold the priesthood.  So until that changes it will be run mostly by white old 
men.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Robert  wrote:
> 
>  Good group to rely on, but women?
> 
> On 4/26/20 10:22 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>> Here is the roster of the 14 guys at the top and their former professions:
>>  
>> Russell M. NelsonFamous heart surgeon
>> Dallin H. OaksJustice of Utah Supreme Court
>> M. Russell BallardBallard Motor Company – Businessman
>> Jeffrey R. HollandPresident BYU
>> Henry B. EyringPresident Ricks – Harvard Business School alum, his 
>> dad was a famous Physicist
>> Dieter F. UchtdorfSenior VP of Flight Operations Lufthansa  Former 
>> fighter pilot
>> David A. BednarPresident Ricks (BYU Idaho)  Business school professor
>> Quentin L. CookCorporate Attorney
>> D. Todd ChristoffersonCorporate Attorney
>> Donale RasbandBusiness Executive
>> Gary E. Stevenson Business Executive
>> Dale G. RenlundCardiologist, Professor, Medical Director
>> Gerrit W. Gong.Professor – Political science  US State Department
>> Ulisses Soraes Auditor
>>  
>> Note:  Not a single doctor of theology or philosophy...
>>  
>> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:12 AM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>>  
>> I think we are pretty good at top down organization and rule following.  The 
>> LDS church has a huge amount of sway over the state government.  Actually at 
>> all levels.  The good thing is that the upper echelons of the LDS church is 
>> populated by highly educated people.  The president of the church is a 
>> former world renown heart surgeon.   If he mentions something, people 
>> listen... kinda like Charles Schwab.
>>  
>>  
>> From: Robert
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>>  
>> Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons understand 
>> disease...  
>> 
>> On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>> Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
>>>  
>>> From: Robert
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>>>  
>>> There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
>>> coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners... 
>>>   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?
>>> 
>>> On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
 There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is 
 the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is 
 that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. 
 One headline that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara 
 County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 
 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the 
 virus.
 
 I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation 
 at present:
 
 “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
 Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
 self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
 County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent 
 history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that 
 coroners all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been 
 signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”
 
  
 
 bp
 
 
 On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
> Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
> this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT 
> LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious 
> _without_ symptoms. 
>  I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
> Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation 
> of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including 
> myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate 
> to the gen pop from, because the testing has not been randomly done 
> across gen pop!   The people who get tested typically are those who 
> exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the number who have gotten it OR 
> over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
>  He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results 
> of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the 
> same information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he 
> says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we 
> are over

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal


  
  
Utah is up there, but not in the lead. Rhode Island is #1 in
  testing, followed (in order) by New York, Massachusetts,
  Louisiana, then Utah.





bp



On 4/26/2020 9:57 AM, Steve Jones
  wrote:


  
  Why is utah so for ahead on the testing? Is it
something to do with Mormonism and the teamwork thing or
unrelated?
  
  
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 11:16 AM
  
  wrote:


  

  
Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for
  Coronavirus...

  
 

  From: Robert
  
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not
normal

  
   

There
was just an interesting article written that
lamented how inaccurate coroners have been on cause
of death for the whole existence of coroners...  
Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?
  
  On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
  
  
There is so much we don't know
for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long
that lasts. The other is that the symptoms are
"similar" to the flu, and sometimes other
things. One headline that caught my attention
this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29
people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms",
and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as
COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.
I snipped this from the article,
and it pretty well sums up the situation at
present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how
many people contracted the coronavirus in
San Clara County or California or the U.S.
That ship has sailed. Even self-reporting
would be inherently inaccurate or
impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor
Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting
a decent history of it is by counting the
dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners
all over the country haven’t done a better
job. They’ve been signing death certificates
as strokes or heart attacks or natural
causes.”
  

 
bp



On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

Does it bug anyone else
that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating
this like other epidemics and quarantining the
sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER
epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being
contagious _without_ symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that
point.  
    Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does
the same extrapolation of the testing vs sick
numbers that many have done before ( including
myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a good
test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from,
because the testing has not been randomly done
across gen pop!   The people who get tested
typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
may under guess the number who have gotten it OR
over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the
quarantine actions on the results of the number
of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to
hear the same information done from actual
scientific method testing.   Then he says
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal


  
  
The flip side of herd immunity is culling the herd. We could go
  one way or the other.

bp



On 4/26/2020 8:38 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  
  

  What happens if we learn that you are not immune after
having had it before...  We all just presume that there may
be a herd immunity feature available to us.  Perhaps not. 
Perhaps isolation, hard quarantining and hopefully an
effective treatment is the only way out...
  

   
  
From: Bill
Prince 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
  

 
  
  
There is so much we don't know for a
number of frustrating reasons. One is the asymptomatic
infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is
that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and
sometimes other things. One headline that caught my
attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29
people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9
(roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 after
they tested for the virus.
I snipped this from the article, and it
pretty well sums up the situation at present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many
people contracted the coronavirus in San Clara
County or California or the U.S. That ship has
sailed. Even self-reporting would be inherently
inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County
Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of
getting a decent history of it is by counting the
dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been
signing death certificates as strokes or heart
attacks or natural causes.”
  

 
bp



On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert
  wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor"
says that we aren't treating this like other epidemics
and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE
OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being
contagious _without_ symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
    Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the
same extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that
many have done before ( including myself ) which is BAD
Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to
the gen pop from, because the testing has not been
randomly done across gen pop!   The people who get
tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over
guess, but it's still NOT science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine
actions on the results of the number of cases in his
region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same
information done from actual scientific method
testing.   Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths
which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K deaths
and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have
leveled off but is still going strong.   In basically
1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the model with
social distancing.   Without social distancing we could
start making a gain on the other models.   I think
this is yet another example of someone, this time a
doctor, who looks at the results of successful social
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he
talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery.   Um
doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if
you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a
much shorter time from not social distancing, what
happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an
"agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
  
  On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James
Howard wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Brings up a Quote that someone once told me about an hour after I found 
out my mom had been killed by a drunk driver.   I was sailboat racing in 
BVI at the time.   "It's all unimportant ( referring to all the other 
stuff we do ) when someone dear to us dies )...


On 4/26/20 10:07 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
Not the only way. We could just open everything back up and let those 
that have resistance win the day. Eventually, things will level out, 
burial related industries will struggle to keep up for a while but 
that will also even out.


On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:39 AM > wrote:


What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had
it before...  We all just presume that there may be a herd
immunity feature available to us.  Perhaps not.  Perhaps
isolation, hard quarantining and hopefully an effective treatment
is the only way out...
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating
reasons. One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long
that lasts. The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the
flu, and sometimes other things. One headline that caught my
attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have
been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the
situation at present:

/“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the
coronavirus in San Clara County or California or the U.S. That
ship has sailed. Even self-reporting would be inherently
inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor Dave
Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it
is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners
all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been
signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or
natural causes.”/

bp


On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't
treating this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick,
when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics. It has a 2-10 day
period of being contagious _without_ symptoms.
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.
    Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a
good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the
testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people
who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but
it's still NOT science.
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the
results of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I
want to hear the same information done from actual scientific
method testing.   Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths
which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K deaths and the
curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the
way to the model with social distancing. Without social
distancing we could start making a gain on the other
models.   I think this is yet another example of someone,
this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social
distancing and says it's overreaction. And then he talks about
0.1% of death and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like
8% who DON'T recover?   And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of
the population in a much shorter time from not social distancing,
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda"
again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

*From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken
Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to
engage in “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other
dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Here is the roster of the 14 guys at the top and their former professions:

Russell M. NelsonFamous heart surgeon
Dallin H. OaksJustice of Utah Supreme Court
M. Russell BallardBallard Motor Company – Businessman
Jeffrey R. HollandPresident BYU
Henry B. EyringPresident Ricks – Harvard Business School alum, his dad 
was a famous Physicist
Dieter F. UchtdorfSenior VP of Flight Operations Lufthansa  Former fighter 
pilot
David A. BednarPresident Ricks (BYU Idaho)  Business school professor
Quentin L. CookCorporate Attorney
D. Todd ChristoffersonCorporate Attorney
Donale RasbandBusiness Executive
Gary E. Stevenson Business Executive
Dale G. RenlundCardiologist, Professor, Medical Director
Gerrit W. Gong.Professor – Political science  US State Department
Ulisses Soraes Auditor

Note:  Not a single doctor of theology or philosophy...

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:12 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I think we are pretty good at top down organization and rule following.  The 
LDS church has a huge amount of sway over the state government.  Actually at 
all levels.  The good thing is that the upper echelons of the LDS church is 
populated by highly educated people.  The president of the church is a former 
world renown heart surgeon.   If he mentions something, people listen... kinda 
like Charles Schwab.


From: Robert 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons understand 
disease...  


On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...

  From: Robert 
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

  There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners...   
Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?


  On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is 
the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that 
the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation 
at present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history 
of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over 
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates 
as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”




bp


On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

  Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE 
OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ 
symptoms. 
   I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
  Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation 
of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) 
which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop 
from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The 
people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may 
under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT 
science.  
   He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results 
of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I think we are pretty good at top down organization and rule following.  The 
LDS church has a huge amount of sway over the state government.  Actually at 
all levels.  The good thing is that the upper echelons of the LDS church is 
populated by highly educated people.  The president of the church is a former 
world renown heart surgeon.   If he mentions something, people listen... kinda 
like Charles Schwab.


From: Robert 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:01 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve...   Yep the mormons understand 
disease...  


On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...

  From: Robert 
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

  There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners...   
Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?


  On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is 
the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that 
the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation 
at present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history 
of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over 
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates 
as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”




bp


On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

  Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE 
OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ 
symptoms. 
   I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
  Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation 
of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) 
which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop 
from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The 
people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may 
under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT 
science.  
   He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results 
of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an 
"agenda" again...

  IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!


  On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

 

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in 
“spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

 

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

 

I just reread that and am going to have to

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Why must it be one of two things, completely locked down or completely free? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Lewis Bergman"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:07:52 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal 


Not the only way. We could just open everything back up and let those that have 
resistance win the day. Eventually, things will level out, burial related 
industries will struggle to keep up for a while but that will also even out. 


On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:39 AM < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had it before... 
We all just presume that there may be a herd immunity feature available to us. 
Perhaps not. Perhaps isolation, hard quarantining and hopefully an effective 
treatment is the only way out... 




From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal 


There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the 
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that the 
symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus. 
I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present: 


“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San Clara 
County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even self-reporting 
would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor 
Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it is by 
counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over the country 
haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates as strokes 
or heart attacks or natural causes.” 



bp
 
On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote: 


Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating this 
like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER 
epidemics. It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
I was agreeing with him up until that point. 
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of the 
testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) which 
is BAD Science. It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, 
because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop! The people who 
get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms. This may under guess the 
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science. 
He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results of the 
number of cases in his region. Gee wilikers I want to hear the same information 
done from actual scientific method testing. Then he says "hundreds of thousands 
of deaths which were inaccurate"... Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve 
ISN'T going down. It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong. In 
basically 1.5 months. We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social distancing. 
Without social distancing we could start making a gain on the other models. I 
think this is yet another example of someone, this time a doctor, who looks at 
the results of successful social distancing and says it's overreaction. And 
then he talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery. Um doesn't that sound 
like 8% who DON'T recover? And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the 
population in a much shorter time from not social distancing, what happens to 
the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again... 

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU! 


On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote: 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
 





From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal 

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in “spring 
cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings. 

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Steve Jones 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal 


I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry 



On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

2020-04-26 Thread Lewis Bergman

Not the only way. We could just open everything back up and let those that
have resistance win the day. Eventually, things will level out, burial
related industries will struggle to keep up for a while but that will also
even out.

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:39 AM  wrote:

> What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had it
> before...  We all just presume that there may be a herd immunity feature
> available to us.  Perhaps not.  Perhaps isolation, hard quarantining and
> hopefully an effective treatment is the only way out...
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
>
> There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is
> the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is
> that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One
> headline that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County
> had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3)
> have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.
>
> I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation
> at present:
>
> *“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San
> Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even
> self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara
> County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent
> history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that
> coroners all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been
> signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”*
>
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
>
> Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating
> this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT
> LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious
> _without_ symptoms.
>  I was agreeing with him up until that point.
> Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of
> the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself )
> which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen
> pop from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!
> The people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
> may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still
> NOT science.
>  He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results
> of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the
> same information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says
> "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over
> 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off
> but is still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way
> to the model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could
> start making a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another
> example of someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of
> successful social distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he
> talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound
> like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the
> population in a much shorter time from not social distancing, what happens
> to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...
>
> IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
>
> On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
>
>
> Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in
> “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.
>
>
>
> https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
>
>
> I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
> That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political
> correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A
> nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad
> decisions have real world consequenses that dont care about being
> politically correct. You can say house person if you want. Well maybe
> being, since son is in person, indicating Male, if a gender

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Utah seems to be far ahead of the curve... Yep the mormons understand
disease...

On 4/26/20 9:16 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
There was just an interesting article written that lamented how
inaccurate coroners have been on cause of death for the whole
existence of coroners... Like 50% accurate. Why would they get
better now?

On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons.
One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts.
The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and
sometimes other things. One headline that caught my attention this
morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of
flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as
COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the
situation at present:

/“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the
coronavirus in San Clara County or California or the U.S. That
ship has sailed. Even self-reporting would be inherently
inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor Dave
Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it is
by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all
over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing
death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”/

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't
treating this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when
Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics. It has a 2-10 day period of
being contagious _without_ symptoms.

I was agreeing with him up until that point.
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science. It's not a good
test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing
has not been randomly done across gen pop! The people who get
tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms. This may under
guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still
NOT science.
He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the
results of the number of cases in his region. Gee wilikers I want
to hear the same information done from actual scientific method
testing. Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were
inaccurate"... Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going
down. It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong. In
basically 1.5 months. We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social
distancing. Without social distancing we could start making a gain
on the other models. I think this is yet another example of
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful
social distancing and says it's overreaction. And then he talks
about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery. Um doesn't that sound
like 8% who DON'T recover? And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of
the population in a much shorter time from not social distancing,
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda"
again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

*From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage
in “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones
wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb,
political correctness. This is serious business, and housewives
get nervous. A nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad
decisions. Those bad decisions have real world consequenses
that dont care about being politically correct. You can say
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in
person, indicating Male, if a gender actually exists. And I
guess house indicates some level of financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being".

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that
make you feel better?

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

2020-04-26 Thread Steve Jones

Why is utah so for ahead on the testing? Is it something to do with
Mormonism and the teamwork thing or unrelated?

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 11:16 AM  wrote:

> Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...
>
> *From:* Robert
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
> There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate
> coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of
> coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?
>
> On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
>
> There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is
> the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is
> that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One
> headline that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County
> had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3)
> have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.
>
> I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation
> at present:
>
> *“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San
> Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even
> self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara
> County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent
> history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that
> coroners all over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been
> signing death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”*
>
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
>
> Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating
> this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT
> LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious
> _without_ symptoms.
>  I was agreeing with him up until that point.
> Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of
> the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself )
> which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen
> pop from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!
> The people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
> may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still
> NOT science.
>  He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results
> of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the
> same information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says
> "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over
> 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off
> but is still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way
> to the model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could
> start making a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another
> example of someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of
> successful social distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he
> talks about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound
> like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the
> population in a much shorter time from not social distancing, what happens
> to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...
>
> IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
>
> On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
>
>
> Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in
> “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.
>
>
>
> https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
>
>
>
> I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
> That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political
> correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A
> nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad
> decisions have real world consequenses that dont care about being
> politically correct. You can say house person if you want. Well maybe
> being, since son is in person, indicating Male, if a gender actually
> exists. And I guess house indicates some level of financial status.
>
> Would

Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack

Really looking for a card edge connector where the contacts touch each other 
when the card is not in place.

-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:42 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack

On 4/26/20 9:39 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
What was the designator for data jacks that loop back when you unplug the 
cord?

RJ48X maybe?

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack

Maybe, not finding a drawing or pinout.  

-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:42 AM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack 

On 4/26/20 9:39 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
What was the designator for data jacks that loop back when you unplug 
the cord?

RJ48X maybe?

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

2020-04-26 Thread Steve Jones

I was listening to a guy that brought up a good point. We havent vaccinated
a coronavirus yet, so this reliance on the pending vaccine is pie in the
sky. Was a good point. Look at HIV, what is it, almost 40 years, and no
vaccine, just now having truly effective treatment

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 10:10 AM  wrote:

> Not true.  Look at Spanish flu graphs.
> Depended on the community and the rules of the community.
> This will be no different.  There was no mass vaccination then.
> [image: image]
>
> *From:* Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:56 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out
>
> Continual bumps are unavoidable until mass vaccination or herd immunity.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:54:50 AM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] OT We will all find out
>
> The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be
> able to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents.
> There will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get a
> double bump.  I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack

Fancy 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:39:52 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] name of a jack 




What was the designator for data jacks that loop back when you unplug the cord? 
-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] name of a jack

2020-04-26 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 4/26/20 9:39 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
What was the designator for data jacks that loop back when you unplug 
the cord?



RJ48X maybe?


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[AFMUG] name of a jack

What was the designator for data jacks that loop back when you unplug the cord?-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

2020-04-26 Thread Kurt Fankhauser

not many, a different post said the AF5XHD/LTU line can go up to 6200mhz
but that's it. Sounds like will need all new hardware to be produced by the
manufactures which I am ok with.

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:46 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I'm happy they're doing this.
>
> My only question is which devices can do 6ghz with just a firmware
> change and which ones need new hardware?
>
>
> On 4/24/2020 5:37 PM, Caleb Knauer wrote:
> > ULS is gonna have to get way more gerbils, it barely runs on a good day.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:25 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
> >> Everyone on the unlicensed side is now claiming that this was their
> baby, but if you really want to do know where the influence came from -
> follow the lobbying and follow the money.  Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft,
> Apple & Google spent over $16 million in 1st Qtr of 2020 - this thing
> didn't spring up over night and the $$$ spent on this over the last five
> years is astronomical.  It took a ton of lobbying at both the FCC and
> Congress just to get to the Rule Making process that started on Oct 1,
> 2018, and the RM garnered over 700 comments, reply comments and ex-parte
> filings.
> >>
> >> The success / failure of this relies heavily on the AFC to adequately
> protect both existing and new incumbents.  Standard power devices must
> check-in with the AFC at least once a day.  The AFC will rely solely on ULS
> (per FCC requirement) and it is widely recognized that ULS has major
> problems and deficiencies - in fact, the WTB will be issuing a Public
> Notice reminding licensees of their duty to ensure that their licenses are
> complete and accurate.  The AFC systems must go through a testing and
> certification process and this will further delay things.  Its going to
> take some time for all of this before devices that require the AFC to be
> used.
> >>
> >> FYI - in a letter dated January 2018, the RLAN group that includes
> Apple, Broadcom, Cisco and HP projects over 958,062,017 unlicensed devices
> at 6 GHz.
> >>
> >> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Tim Withrow via AF 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> After posting this I seen an article that said they (WFA) was the
> crusader. Wispa seems to be a member of that group as well.
> >> https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-6
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 Tim Reichhart  wrote:
> >>
> >> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in
> it WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> >> Date: 04/23/20 10:14
> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >>
> >> So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies
> dropped that made it happen?
> >>
> >> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name
> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of
> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power
> (WiFi6) usage.
> >>
> >> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
> >>
> >> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC
> out of the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the
> common man/small business.
> >>
> >> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  wrote:
> >>
> >> FCC has total authority over these bands.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser <
> lists.wavel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act
> of Congress?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser <
> er...@northcentraltower.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> yes you are right.
> >>
> >>
> >> Erich Kaiser
> >> North Central Tower
> >> er...@northcentraltower.com
> >> Office: 815-570-3101
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >>
> >> More like 4.9 to 7.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: AF  On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
> >> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean
> heavily, so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum
> proposed will likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability
> standpoint it will be tough to count on a system that uses AFC in general.
>  What about the Antenna being used on these APs are they going to be able
> to cover the entire band from 5Ghz to 6Ghz efficiently?  Just thinking...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Erich Kaiser
> >>
> >> North Central Tower
> >>
> >>

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

I have faith that we will have someone to blame...

From: justsumname . 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:05 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

I have no such faith.   We are all geniuses and wizards when coupled with 
hindsight. 
I won't be participating.

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM  wrote:

  The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be 
able to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents.  
There will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get a double 
bump.  I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired.  
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

2020-04-26 Thread Kurt Fankhauser

Awesome, I did not know this conversion kit existed.
https://www.balticnetworks.com/docs/PW48-12V85W.pdf

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 9:38 AM Josh Baird  wrote:

> Sweet, thanks.  Wonder if this works with CRS317, it does have redundant
> PSU as well.
>
> Sorry for the hi-jack.
>
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> 
> It can be used on any of the dual power supply 1016s or 1036s...  or now
> the 2004.
>
> The 1009 has a different power supply as does the 1072.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Josh Baird" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:22:23 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>
> So this can be used on the newer 1036 models?  Older ones did not accept
> 48VDC.
>
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:03 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> 
> https://mikrotik.com/product/pw48v_12v85w
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Josh Baird" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:54:56 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>
> Actually, the 1016/1036 are 24VDC, not 48VDC.  The 1009 is 48VDC.
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> The CCR 2004 can take the same +- 48 vDC power supply as the current
>> generation CCR1016 and CCR1036.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> *Sent: *Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11:28 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>>
>> Is the power options for this CCR2004 only AC power? If so that is a
>> going to be a huge issue for most of the sites I have that are DC powered!
>> I need routers with 10G SFP+ ports that can be powered from DC/AC
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys all need to calm the heck down with this talk, you're gonna get
>>> us all killed. Look at what the lunatics are doing to the 5g operators.
>>> When they find out afmug is over here operating 25 40 and 100g networks,
>>> theyll send out armys of Karen's with the short hair to put our heads on
>>> pikes. We have worked too hard over the years building this industry up for
>>> us to all be skinned alive when Janet or Kyle find the afmug archive.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 8:04 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>>
 I agree if it's a transport system or a modern switch. If it's an older
 switch, 40G is all it's got, no 25G and no 100G. Who buys new switches when
 a switch is a switch and there's a large supply of older switches? Yes,
 obviously there's a demand, but it's not going to be most of us in this
 room.

 When I have actually gotten quotes for 40G transport, they were more
 than 4x 10G and about the same as 100G (though I had no 100G equipment). In
 those scenarios, a 25G wave would actually do great. Well, other than
 needing new switches which aren't cheap.


 In one facility in Indy, we offer 1G, 10G, 25G, 40G, and 100G.  :-)
 We're rolling out 40G in another, but the rest will stay

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Because 100% of deaths in Utah are tested for Coronavirus...

From: Robert 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:07 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There was just an interesting article written that lamented how inaccurate 
coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence of coroners...   
Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?

On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

  There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is 
the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that 
the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

  I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present:

“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history 
of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over 
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates 
as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”

bp

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating 
this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE 
OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ 
symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of 
the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) 
which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop 
from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The 
people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may 
under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT 
science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results 
of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an 
"agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

  From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

  Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in 
“spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

  https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

  From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

  I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

  On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones  
wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A nervous 
housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad decisions have real 
world consequenses that dont care about being politically correct. You can say 
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person, indicating 
Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house indicates some level of 
financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being". 

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make you 
feel better?

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

It seems they are talking that you may need antibodies + T-cells for immunity, 
just a positive antibody test may not say you are immune.  But the WHO 
statements seem to say there is no proof regarding immunity, in other words 
they don’t know yet.  It’s like Kim Jong Un, he may be dead, he may be fine, 
they don’t know.  The world is full of Schrodinger cats lately.

 

If forced to guess, I would say most people who have been infected have 
immunity, and most people with a positive antibody test are immune.  I am also 
optimistic about convalescent plasma therapy, which relies on antibodies.  And 
I am optimistic that a vaccine will eventually be available, although probably 
not this year.

 

What nobody seems to believe is that immunity to this virus will last a 
lifetime or even more than a year or two.

 

So in the future the vast majority of the population will have to get flu shots 
every year.  And even this year, those like me who never get a flu shot need to 
get one, because we don’t need seasonal flu going on at the same time as 
Covid-19.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:39 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

 

What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had it before...  
We all just presume that there may be a herd immunity feature available to us.  
Perhaps not.  Perhaps isolation, hard quarantining and hopefully an effective 
treatment is the only way out...

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

 

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the 
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that the 
symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present:

“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San Clara 
County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even self-reporting 
would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor 
Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it is by 
counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over the country 
haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates as strokes 
or heart attacks or natural causes.”

 

bp

 

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating this 
like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER 
epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of the 
testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) which 
is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, 
because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people who 
get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the 
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results of 
the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an 
"agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU 

 
=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Well, I am slowly coming to accept reality that we could be seriously
f'd... And just exist with the situation. Anyone want to buy stock in
graveyards? Oh yeah, the return will be realized by our heirs...

On 4/26/20 8:38 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had it
before... We all just presume that there may be a herd immunity
feature available to us. Perhaps not. Perhaps isolation, hard
quarantining and hopefully an effective treatment is the only way out...

*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons.
One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts.
The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes
other things. One headline that caught my attention this morning is
that Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like
symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19
after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the
situation at present:

I was agreeing with him up until that point.
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science. It's not a good
test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing has
not been randomly done across gen pop! The people who get tested
typically are those who exhibit symptoms. This may under guess the
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.
He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the
results of the number of cases in his region. Gee wilikers I want
to hear the same information done from actual scientific method
testing. Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were
inaccurate"... Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going
down. It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong. In
basically 1.5 months. We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social
distancing. Without social distancing we could start making a gain
on the other models. I think this is yet another example of
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful
social distancing and says it's overreaction. And then he talks
about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery. Um doesn't that sound
like 8% who DON'T recover? And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of
the population in a much shorter time from not social distancing,
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage
in “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones
wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb,
political correctness. This is serious business, and housewives
get nervous. A nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad
decisions. Those bad decisions have real world consequenses that
dont care about being politically correct. You can say house
person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person,
indicating Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house
indicates some level of financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being".

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

WHEN they start using the accurate tests...

On 4/26/20 8:33 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

After the fact, large numbers of antibody testing will tell the tale.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons.
One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts.
The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes
other things. One headline that caught my attention this morning is
that Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like
symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19
after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the
situation at present:

I was agreeing with him up until that point.
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science. It's not a good
test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing has
not been randomly done across gen pop! The people who get tested
typically are those who exhibit symptoms. This may under guess the
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.
He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the
results of the number of cases in his region. Gee wilikers I want
to hear the same information done from actual scientific method
testing. Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were
inaccurate"... Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going
down. It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong. In
basically 1.5 months. We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social
distancing. Without social distancing we could start making a gain
on the other models. I think this is yet another example of
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful
social distancing and says it's overreaction. And then he talks
about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery. Um doesn't that sound
like 8% who DON'T recover? And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of
the population in a much shorter time from not social distancing,
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage
in “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones
wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb,
political correctness. This is serious business, and housewives
get nervous. A nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad
decisions. Those bad decisions have real world consequenses that
dont care about being politically correct. You can say house
person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person,
indicating Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house
indicates some level of financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being".

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that
make you feel better?

Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is
suffering severe post partum depression in the middle of the end
of the world, looking for templates on making masks, so i dont
come home to the real world consequense of my babies drown in
the

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There was just an interesting article written that lamented how 
inaccurate coroners have been on cause of death for the whole existence 
of coroners...   Like 50% accurate.   Why would they get better now?


On 4/26/20 8:23 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. 
One is the asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. 
The other is that the symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes 
other things. One headline that caught my attention this morning is 
that Santa Clara County had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like 
symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 
after they tested for the virus.


I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the 
situation at present:


/“We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the
coronavirus in San Clara County or California or the U.S. That
ship has sailed. Even self-reporting would be inherently
inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County Supervisor Dave
Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history of it is
by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all
over the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing
death certificates as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”/


bp


On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:
Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't 
treating this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when 
Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of 
being contagious _without_ symptoms.

 I was agreeing with him up until that point.
    Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same 
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done 
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a good 
test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing has 
not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people who get tested 
typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may under guess the 
number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the 
results of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want 
to hear the same information done from actual scientific method 
testing.   Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were 
inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going 
down.  It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong.   In 
basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social 
distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making a gain 
on the other models.       I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful 
social distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks 
about 0.1% of death and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound 
like 8% who DON'T recover?   And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of 
the population in a much shorter time from not social distancing, 
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...


IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

*From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage 
in “spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.


https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF > *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones

*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb,
political correctness. This is serious business, and housewives
get nervous. A nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad
decisions. Those bad decisions have real world consequenses that
dont care about being politically correct. You can say house
person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person,
indicating Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house
indicates some level of financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being".

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that
make you feel better?

Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is
suffering severe post partum depression in the middle of the end
of the world, looking for templates on making masks, so i dont
come home to the real world

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

I think you underestimate the ability of politicians to curve 
reality..   But we can hope!



On 4/26/20 7:54 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all 
be able to see how well the various politicians protected their 
constituents.  There will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too 
early and you get a double bump.  I imagine the double bump will get 
politicians fired.




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

2020-04-26 Thread justsumname .

I have no such faith.   We are all geniuses and wizards when coupled with
hindsight.
I won't be participating.


On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM  wrote:

> The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be
> able to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents.
> There will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get a
> double bump.  I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Seems like in times where we're overturning old, silly decisions, there should 
be more usage of 101 in 74 space. 


Not the tiny channels they have either, but properly good sized channels. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:55:18 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

That’s what Part 101 licensees back in the day requested but NAB and the 
broadcasters raised hell. So, we are left with exclusion zones wherever there’s 
a licensed eng area. 






On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


I meant Part 74 vs. part 101. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown" < ch...@wbmfg.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
achieve. 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 







Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio? 


Why can't it all just be part 101? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy" < thardy...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible. They are not eligible under Part 74. 





On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz 





On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Caleb Knauer" < cknauer.li...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been 
involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers 
and fade margins. Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big 
voice with the feds. AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle. 
But we shall see. 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on rain 
> fade characteristics. And there are many existing links. Just saying your 
> spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and the 
> service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart < 
> timreichh...@hometowncable.net > wrote: 
> 
> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Date: 04/23/20 10:14 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> So did WISPA make this happen? Or was it the millions these companies dropped 
> that made it happen? 
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen < ericlniel...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power (WiFi6) 
> usage. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout < t...@voltbb.com > wrote: 
> 
> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
> the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
> man/small business. 
> 
> 
> 
> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum? 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
>

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

That’s what Part 101 licensees back in the day requested but NAB and the 
broadcasters raised hell.  So, we are left with exclusion zones wherever 
there’s a licensed eng area.


> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> I meant Part 74 vs. part 101.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Chuck McCown" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
> achieve.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio?
> 
> Why can't it all just be part 101?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Tim Hardy" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
> licensees would be eligible.  They are not eligible under Part 74.
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy  > wrote:
> 
> Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz
> 
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett  > wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Caleb Knauer"  >
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  >
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been
> involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers
> and fade margins.  Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big
> voice with the feds.  AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle.
> But we shall see.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof  > wrote:
> >
> > But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on 
> > rain fade characteristics.  And there are many existing links.  Just saying 
> > your spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and 
> > the service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
> > Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  > >
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> >
> >
> > Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> > more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> > utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart 
> > mailto:timreichh...@hometowncable.net>> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> > WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Matt Hoppes"

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

What happens if we learn that you are not immune after having had it before...  
We all just presume that there may be a herd immunity feature available to us.  
Perhaps not.  Perhaps isolation, hard quarantining and hopefully an effective 
treatment is the only way out...

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the 
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that the 
symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history 
of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over 
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates 
as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”

bp

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

  Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating this 
like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER 
epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
   I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
  Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of 
the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) 
which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop 
from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The 
people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may 
under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT 
science.  
   He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results of 
the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an 
"agenda" again...

  IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

  On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in 
“spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones  
wrote:

  That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A nervous 
housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad decisions have real 
world consequenses that dont care about being politically correct. You can say 
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person, indicating 
Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house indicates some level of 
financial status.

  Would you feel better about "dwelling being". 

  "Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make you 
feel better?

  Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is suffering 
severe post partum

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

After the fact, large numbers of antibody testing will tell the tale.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:23 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

There is so much we don't know for a number of frustrating reasons. One is the 
asymptomatic infection problem, and how long that lasts. The other is that the 
symptoms are "similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline 
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County had 29 people 
listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9 (roughly 1/3) have been 
reclassified as COVID-19 after they tested for the virus.

I snipped this from the article, and it pretty well sums up the situation at 
present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many people contracted the coronavirus in San 
Clara County or California or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even 
self-reporting would be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara 
County Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a decent history 
of it is by counting the dead. I’m really disappointed that coroners all over 
the country haven’t done a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates 
as strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”

bp

On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:

  Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating this 
like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER 
epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
   I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
  Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation of 
the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including myself ) 
which is BAD Science.   It's not a good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop 
from, because the testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The 
people who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This may 
under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT 
science.  
   He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the results of 
the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers I want to hear the same 
information done from actual scientific method testing.   Then he says 
"hundreds of thousands of deaths which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K 
deaths and the curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is 
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the way to the 
model with social distancing.   Without social distancing we could start making 
a gain on the other models.   I think this is yet another example of 
someone, this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social 
distancing and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of death 
and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T recover?   And 
if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a much shorter time from 
not social distancing, what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an 
"agenda" again...

  IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

  On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in 
“spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones  
wrote:

  That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A nervous 
housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad decisions have real 
world consequenses that dont care about being politically correct. You can say 
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person, indicating 
Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house indicates some level of 
financial status.

  Would you feel better about "dwelling being". 

  "Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make you 
feel better?

  Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is suffering 
severe post partum depression in the middle of the end of the world, looking 
for templates on making masks, so i dont come home to the real world 
consequense of my babies drown in the bathtub. I'm not quite sure if her

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal


  
  
There is so much we don't know for a number of
frustrating reasons. One is the asymptomatic infection problem,
and how long that lasts. The other is that the symptoms are
"similar" to the flu, and sometimes other things. One headline
that caught my attention this morning is that Santa Clara County
had 29 people listed as "dying of flu-like symptoms", and 9
(roughly 1/3) have been reclassified as COVID-19 after they
tested for the virus.
I snipped this from the article, and it pretty
well sums up the situation at present:

  “We’ll never, ever know how many people
contracted the coronavirus in San Clara County or California
or the U.S. That ship has sailed. Even self-reporting would
be inherently inaccurate or impossible,” Santa Clara County
Supervisor Dave Cortese said. “Our only hope of getting a
decent history of it is by counting the dead. I’m really
disappointed that coroners all over the country haven’t done
a better job. They’ve been signing death certificates as
strokes or heart attacks or natural causes.”
  



bp



On 4/26/2020 8:12 AM, Robert wrote:


  
  Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't
treating this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick,
when Covid-19 IS NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics.   It has a 2-10 day
period of being contagious _without_ symptoms. 
 I was agreeing with him up until that point.  
    Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same
extrapolation of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done
before ( including myself ) which is BAD Science.   It's not a
good test case to extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the
testing has not been randomly done across gen pop!   The people
who get tested typically are those who exhibit symptoms.   This
may under guess the number who have gotten it OR over guess, but
it's still NOT science.  
 He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on
the results of the number of cases in his region.   Gee wilikers
I want to hear the same information done from actual scientific
method testing.   Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths
which were inaccurate"...   Um we are over 54K deaths and the
curve ISN'T going down.  It seems to have leveled off but is
still going strong.   In basically 1.5 months.  We are 1/4+ the
way to the model with social distancing.   Without social
distancing we could start making a gain on the other models.  
    I think this is yet another example of someone, this time a
doctor, who looks at the results of successful social distancing
and says it's overreaction.   And then he talks about 0.1% of
death and then 92% recovery.   Um doesn't that sound like 8% who
DON'T recover?   And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the
population in a much shorter time from not social distancing,
what happens to the hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda"
again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!
  
  On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard
wrote:
  
  





  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g
   
   
   
  

  From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

  
   
  Steve, the usual solution is for nervous
dwelling beings to engage in “spring cleaning”, to the
annoyance of all other dwelling beings.
   
  https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26
   
   
  
From: AF  On
Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal
  
   
  
I just reread that and am going to have
  to call a lent. Sorry
  
   
  

  On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve
Jones 
wrote:


  
That's another thing that really
  needs kicked to the curb, political correctness. This
  is serious business, and

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Does it bug anyone else that this "doctor" says that we aren't treating
this like other epidemics and quarantining the sick, when Covid-19 IS
NOT LIKE OTHER epidemics. It has a 2-10 day period of being contagious
_without_ symptoms.

I was agreeing with him up until that point.
Then he goes into the NY numbers and he does the same extrapolation
of the testing vs sick numbers that many have done before ( including
myself ) which is BAD Science. It's not a good test case to
extrapolate to the gen pop from, because the testing has not been
randomly done across gen pop! The people who get tested typically are
those who exhibit symptoms. This may under guess the number who have
gotten it OR over guess, but it's still NOT science.
He also neglects the effect of the quarantine actions on the
results of the number of cases in his region. Gee wilikers I want to
hear the same information done from actual scientific method testing.
Then he says "hundreds of thousands of deaths which were
inaccurate"... Um we are over 54K deaths and the curve ISN'T going
down. It seems to have leveled off but is still going strong. In
basically 1.5 months. We are 1/4+ the way to the model with social
distancing. Without social distancing we could start making a gain on
the other models. I think this is yet another example of someone,
this time a doctor, who looks at the results of successful social
distancing and says it's overreaction. And then he talks about 0.1% of
death and then 92% recovery. Um doesn't that sound like 8% who DON'T
recover? And if you throw 8% at the hospitals of the population in a
much shorter time from not social distancing, what happens to the
hospitals? Sorry but this is an "agenda" again...

IT'S NOT LIKE THE FLU!

On 4/26/20 7:34 AM, James Howard wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

*From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in
“spring cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>
*On Behalf Of *Steve Jones

*Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones > wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb,
political correctness. This is serious business, and housewives
get nervous. A nervous housewife can make a whole lot of bad
decisions. Those bad decisions have real world consequenses that
dont care about being politically correct. You can say house
person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person,
indicating Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house
indicates some level of financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being".

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make
you feel better?

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 11:56 PM Bruce Robertson mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:

“keeping housewives occupied and less nervous”

Really? You’re aware this is 2020, right?

On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:18 PM, Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

You asked

What was recomended by the White House. Regional opening
with result driven response. (Without rhetoric, example,
my county TRIPLED its cases over the weekend. It went from
1 to 3, the 2 new ones are related, so the increase is
pretty irrelevant.) Tracing is more important than
testing. That's just a matter of fact, testing is a slice
in time, you can be infected, and test negative if you
were recently infected, you can get infected at a test
site. You can test positive from an environmental exposure
without having actually caught it. It's like MRSA of the
nairs.

Once identified, the tracing leads back to likely
hotspots. I'd personally put the bulk of the funding into
tracing. Use every bit of data volunteered. Particularly
request the

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

Not true.  Look at Spanish flu graphs.  
Depended on the community and the rules of the community.  
This will be no different.  There was no mass vaccination then.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:56 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

Continual bumps are unavoidable until mass vaccination or herd immunity.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@af.afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:54:50 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be able 
to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents.  There 
will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get a double bump. 
 I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired.  

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out


  
  
That is the conventional wisdom, but I wonder. China is now
  claiming they have zero COVID-19 patients in their hospitals. Now
  I believe that about as far as I can throw the country of China
  with my left hand. 



If we can get some sort of modified isolation with good, reliable
  contact tracing, maybe there is a semi-normal way out of this
  thing.


bp



On 4/26/2020 7:56 AM, Mike Hammett
  wrote:


  
  
  Continual bumps are unavoidable until mass
vaccination or herd immunity.


  
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  
  Midwest Internet Exchange
  
  The Brothers WISP
  


  


From:
  ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:54:50 AM
  Subject: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out
  
  

  The interesting thing about the virus and politics is
that we will all be able to see how well the various
politicians protected their constituents.  There will be
no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get
a double bump.  I imagine the double bump will get
politicians fired.  

  
  
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


  
  
  

  


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out

Continual bumps are unavoidable until mass vaccination or herd immunity. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:54:50 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT We will all find out 




The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be able 
to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents. There 
will be no room for opinion or spin. Open too early and you get a double bump. 
I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired. 
-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] OT We will all find out

The interesting thing about the virus and politics is that we will all be able 
to see how well the various politicians protected their constituents.  There 
will be no room for opinion or spin.  Open too early and you get a double bump. 
 I imagine the double bump will get politicians fired.  -- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU=youtu.be=IwAR2Z1n4E0sxMyXc82UZxrXNKJqf9oaC_kF53Be6NZaVPnuP8jwTDKxk5w4g

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in “spring 
cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A nervous 
housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad decisions have real 
world consequenses that dont care about being politically correct. You can say 
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person, indicating 
Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house indicates some level of 
financial status.
Would you feel better about "dwelling being".
"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make you feel 
better?

Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is suffering severe 
post partum depression in the middle of the end of the world, looking for 
templates on making masks, so i dont come home to the real world consequense of 
my babies drown in the bathtub. I'm not quite sure if her doing that would be 
PC or not.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 11:56 PM Bruce Robertson 
mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:
“keeping housewives occupied and less nervous”

Really?  You’re aware this is 2020, right?

On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:18 PM, Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

You asked

What was recomended by the White House. Regional opening with result driven 
response. (Without rhetoric, example, my county TRIPLED its cases over the 
weekend. It went from 1 to 3, the 2 new ones are related, so the increase is 
pretty irrelevant.) Tracing is more important than testing. That's just a 
matter of fact, testing is a slice in time, you can be infected, and test 
negative if you were recently infected, you can get infected at a test site. 
You can test positive from an environmental exposure without having actually 
caught it. It's like MRSA of the nairs.

Once identified, the tracing leads back to likely hotspots. I'd personally put 
the bulk of the funding into tracing. Use every bit of data volunteered. 
Particularly request the tracking data from mobile devices. If its volunteered, 
you have a map. If they dont, well, you work with what you have.
"Testing" is a tool of politics. The only way to effectively test would be real 
time monitoring. Which A. Doesnt exist and B. Wouldn't be feasible.

The governors each now have in their possession the location of every single 
test processing facility in the nation. So what little relevance testing 
actually plays in management is their responsibility to delegate coordination. 
So it's a moot issue.

Any location exposed in tracing gets a mandatory scrub scrub (to be honest, I 
dont understand any public venue that wouldn't be surface decontaminating once 
ever 24 hours minimum anyway, there's no shortage of killitol level 
disinfectants)

I think the mandatory face covering is nonsense. If it were mandatory rated 
filtration masks that would be different.
But there isnt a production capacity for that on the entire planet. But since 
it makes people feel like they're doing something, I'm all for it. Placebo is 
actually a powerful medication for much of what ails society. Plus the homemade 
masks are keeping housewives occupied and less nervous. That actually matters.

Occasionally a tracing may require a mandatory compensated closure. Example 
being a county here in illinois that has a processor who has over 20 employees 
infected, they're still operational. There is autonomy and constitutional 
rights, and then there is stupidity and a true public health risk. That falls 
under the latter and should be closed pending decontamination.

A forcible closure, from a document able and legitimate public health risk 
should require medical screening of all staff/administration prior to resuming 
activities. There is no shortage of available healthcare practitioners right 
now, so depts of public health can contract that . Once again, the focus should 
be on tracing. Heavily funded tracing. "Patient zero" in the above mentioned 
case has probably long since recovered. Tracing is where they are identified, 
as theyll test negative now. Cases like this are where antibody testing should 
be prioritized, assuming there is consent.

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

I meant Part 74 vs. part 101. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:48:12 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
achieve. 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote: 







Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio? 


Why can't it all just be part 101? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible. They are not eligible under Part 74. 





On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz 





On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Caleb Knauer" < cknauer.li...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been 
involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers 
and fade margins. Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big 
voice with the feds. AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle. 
But we shall see. 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on rain 
> fade characteristics. And there are many existing links. Just saying your 
> spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and the 
> service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart < 
> timreichh...@hometowncable.net > wrote: 
> 
> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Date: 04/23/20 10:14 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> So did WISPA make this happen? Or was it the millions these companies dropped 
> that made it happen? 
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen < ericlniel...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power (WiFi6) 
> usage. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout < t...@voltbb.com > wrote: 
> 
> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
> the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
> man/small business. 
> 
> 
> 
> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum? 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> FCC has total authority over these bands. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
> Congress? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser < er...@northcentraltower.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> yes you are right. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erich Kaiser 
> 
> North Central Tower 
> 
> er...@northcentraltower.com 
> 
> Office: 815-570-3101 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> More like 4.9 to 7. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
>

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Part 101 has spectral efficiency rules that most part 15 type radios cannot 
achieve.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio?
> 
> Why can't it all just be part 101?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Tim Hardy" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
> licensees would be eligible.  They are not eligible under Part 74.
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy  wrote:
> 
> Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz
> 
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Caleb Knauer" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been
> involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers
> and fade margins.  Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big
> voice with the feds.  AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle.
> But we shall see.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >
> > But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on 
> > rain fade characteristics.  And there are many existing links.  Just saying 
> > your spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and 
> > the service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> >
> >
> > Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> > more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> > utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> > WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > Date: 04/23/20 10:14
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> > So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies 
> > dropped that made it happen?
> >
> >
> > On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen  wrote:
> >
> > The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> > companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
> > them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power 
> > (WiFi6) usage.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
> >
> > There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
> > the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
> > man/small business.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  wrote:
> >
> > FCC has total authority over these bands.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser  
> > wrote:
> >
> > How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
> > Congress?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser  
> > wrote:
> >
> > yes you are right.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erich Kaiser
> >
> > North Central Tower
> >
> > er...@northcentraltower.com
> >
> > Office: 815-570-3101
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >
> > More like 4.9 to 7.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> >
> >
> > Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean 
> > heavily, so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum 
> > proposed will likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability 
> > standpoint it will be tough to count on a system that uses AFC in general.  
> >  What about the Antenna being used on these APs are they going to be able 
> > to cover the entire band from 5Ghz to 6Ghz efficiently?  Just thinking...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erich Kaiser
> >
> > North Central Tower
> >
> > er...@northcentraltower.com
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

2020-04-26 Thread Josh Baird

Sweet, thanks.  Wonder if this works with CRS317, it does have redundant PSU as 
well.

Sorry for the hi-jack.

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> It can be used on any of the dual power supply 1016s or 1036s...  or now the 
> 2004.
> 
> The 1009 has a different power supply as does the 1072.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Josh Baird" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 8:22:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
> 
> So this can be used on the newer 1036 models?  Older ones did not accept 
> 48VDC.
> 
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:03 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> https://mikrotik.com/product/pw48v_12v85w
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Josh Baird" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:54:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
> 
> Actually, the 1016/1036 are 24VDC, not 48VDC.  The 1009 is 48VDC.
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>> The CCR 2004 can take the same +- 48 vDC power supply as the current 
>> generation CCR1016 and CCR1036.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>> 
>> Is the power options for this CCR2004 only AC power? If so that is a going 
>> to be a huge issue for most of the sites I have that are DC powered! I need 
>> routers with 10G SFP+ ports that can be powered from DC/AC 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Steve Jones  
>>> wrote:
>>> You guys all need to calm the heck down with this talk, you're gonna get us 
>>> all killed. Look at what the lunatics are doing to the 5g operators. When 
>>> they find out afmug is over here operating 25 40 and 100g networks, theyll 
>>> send out armys of Karen's with the short hair to put our heads on pikes. We 
>>> have worked too hard over the years building this industry up for us to all 
>>> be skinned alive when Janet or Kyle find the afmug archive.
>>> 
 On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 8:04 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
 I agree if it's a transport system or a modern switch. If it's an older 
 switch, 40G is all it's got, no 25G and no 100G. Who buys new switches 
 when a switch is a switch and there's a large supply of older switches? 
 Yes, obviously there's a demand, but it's not going to be most of us in 
 this room.

 When I have actually gotten quotes for 40G transport, they were more than 
 4x 10G and about the same as 100G (though I had no 100G equipment). In 
 those scenarios, a 25G wave would actually do great. Well, other than 
 needing new switches which aren't cheap.

 In one facility in Indy, we offer 1G, 10G, 25G, 40G, and 100G.  :-) We're 
 rolling out 40G in another, but the rest will stay 10G for the time being. 
 I suppose we could always put a 25G customer on, just bypassing the switch 
 in that building and going right into the mux to the central switch.

 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions

 Midwest Internet Exchange

 The Brothers WISP

 From: "Trey Scarborough" 
 To: af@af.afmug.com
 Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 5:34:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

 you are only comparing SFP transceiver cost. The reason why it is dead is 
 transport equipment and switch equipment you pretty much are burning a 
 100G port to do 40g there are some 100G 2x40 transponders out there but 
 they are the same cost as a 200G  2x100G transponder so if you go to order 
 a 40G wave service it will cost you the same as a 100G maybe more if they 
 have to use an OTU4 to 40GLANPHY card. As well most switches being 
 deployed by providers are 100G/25G/10G and don't have 40G ports. so you 
 hae to burn a 100G port to provide 40G therefor the cost is priced 
 accordingly. 

 Is it dead in the data center space for the most part to because the power 
 requirements vs speed is horrible uses almost as much power as a 100G and 
 only get 40% of the bandwidth. The power for a 25G is comparable to 10G. 
 Starting to see 25G IX connection options as well. 

 Don't worry you are going to start seeing a bunch more 25G options coming 
 out because the demand is growing. There are already companies starting to 
 sell 25G channelized DWDM optics. The price at the moment is high because 
 they are new and the demand is low, but will greatly reduce the cost the 
 more that the

Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

2020-04-26 Thread Josh Baird

So this can be used on the newer 1036 models?  Older ones did not accept 48VDC.

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:03 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> https://mikrotik.com/product/pw48v_12v85w
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Josh Baird" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:54:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
> 
> Actually, the 1016/1036 are 24VDC, not 48VDC.  The 1009 is 48VDC.
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>> The CCR 2004 can take the same +- 48 vDC power supply as the current 
>> generation CCR1016 and CCR1036.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>> 
>> Is the power options for this CCR2004 only AC power? If so that is a going 
>> to be a huge issue for most of the sites I have that are DC powered! I need 
>> routers with 10G SFP+ ports that can be powered from DC/AC 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Steve Jones  
>>> wrote:
>>> You guys all need to calm the heck down with this talk, you're gonna get us 
>>> all killed. Look at what the lunatics are doing to the 5g operators. When 
>>> they find out afmug is over here operating 25 40 and 100g networks, theyll 
>>> send out armys of Karen's with the short hair to put our heads on pikes. We 
>>> have worked too hard over the years building this industry up for us to all 
>>> be skinned alive when Janet or Kyle find the afmug archive.
>>> 
 On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 8:04 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
 I agree if it's a transport system or a modern switch. If it's an older 
 switch, 40G is all it's got, no 25G and no 100G. Who buys new switches 
 when a switch is a switch and there's a large supply of older switches? 
 Yes, obviously there's a demand, but it's not going to be most of us in 
 this room.

 When I have actually gotten quotes for 40G transport, they were more than 
 4x 10G and about the same as 100G (though I had no 100G equipment). In 
 those scenarios, a 25G wave would actually do great. Well, other than 
 needing new switches which aren't cheap.

 In one facility in Indy, we offer 1G, 10G, 25G, 40G, and 100G.  :-) We're 
 rolling out 40G in another, but the rest will stay 10G for the time being. 
 I suppose we could always put a 25G customer on, just bypassing the switch 
 in that building and going right into the mux to the central switch.

 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions

 Midwest Internet Exchange

 The Brothers WISP

 From: "Trey Scarborough" 
 To: af@af.afmug.com
 Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 5:34:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

 you are only comparing SFP transceiver cost. The reason why it is dead is 
 transport equipment and switch equipment you pretty much are burning a 
 100G port to do 40g there are some 100G 2x40 transponders out there but 
 they are the same cost as a 200G  2x100G transponder so if you go to order 
 a 40G wave service it will cost you the same as a 100G maybe more if they 
 have to use an OTU4 to 40GLANPHY card. As well most switches being 
 deployed by providers are 100G/25G/10G and don't have 40G ports. so you 
 hae to burn a 100G port to provide 40G therefor the cost is priced 
 accordingly. 

 Is it dead in the data center space for the most part to because the power 
 requirements vs speed is horrible uses almost as much power as a 100G and 
 only get 40% of the bandwidth. The power for a 25G is comparable to 10G. 
 Starting to see 25G IX connection options as well. 

 Don't worry you are going to start seeing a bunch more 25G options coming 
 out because the demand is growing. There are already companies starting to 
 sell 25G channelized DWDM optics. The price at the moment is high because 
 they are new and the demand is low, but will greatly reduce the cost the 
 more that the utilization grows. 

 On 4/24/2020 10:07 AM, Steven Kenney wrote:
 That is up for debate but we'll see in a few years.  I'd rather jump to 40 
 than 25.  You almost defeated your own point stating you have a lot of 40G 
 laying around.  Price has come down on them and transceivers are not as 
 expensive either.  Personally I'd rather jump to 100 :) 

 40G transceivers I can get for most models for $55.  (short range)  Same 
 price for 25G!  Why bother with 25?
 Short range 100G are under $200 each.  

 -- 
 Steven Kenney
 Network

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Is there a reason that can't be changed to accommodate radio? 


Why can't it all just be part 101? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Tim Hardy"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:14:55 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible. They are not eligible under Part 74. 





On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz 





On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Caleb Knauer" < cknauer.li...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 

The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been 
involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers 
and fade margins. Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big 
voice with the feds. AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle. 
But we shall see. 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on rain 
> fade characteristics. And there are many existing links. Just saying your 
> spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and the 
> service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart < 
> timreichh...@hometowncable.net > wrote: 
> 
> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Date: 04/23/20 10:14 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> So did WISPA make this happen? Or was it the millions these companies dropped 
> that made it happen? 
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen < ericlniel...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power (WiFi6) 
> usage. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout < t...@voltbb.com > wrote: 
> 
> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
> the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
> man/small business. 
> 
> 
> 
> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum? 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy < thardy...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> FCC has total authority over these bands. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
> Congress? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser < er...@northcentraltower.com > 
> wrote: 
> 
> yes you are right. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erich Kaiser 
> 
> North Central Tower 
> 
> er...@northcentraltower.com 
> 
> Office: 815-570-3101 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 
> 
> More like 4.9 to 7. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser 
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum 
> 
> 
> 
> Two of the UNII bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean heavily, 
> so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum proposed 
> will likely be unuseable outdoor. I feel like from a reliability standpoint 
> it will be tough to count on a system that uses AFC in general. What about 
> the Antenna being used on these APs are they going to be able to cover the 
> entire band from 5Ghz to 6Ghz efficiently? Just thinking... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

Steve, the usual solution is for nervous dwelling beings to engage in “spring 
cleaning”, to the annoyance of all other dwelling beings.

 

https://www.gocomics.com/breaking-cat-news/2020/04/26

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

 

I just reread that and am going to have to call a lent. Sorry

 

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 12:19 AM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That's another thing that really needs kicked to the curb, political 
correctness. This is serious business, and housewives get nervous. A nervous 
housewife can make a whole lot of bad decisions. Those bad decisions have real 
world consequenses that dont care about being politically correct. You can say 
house person if you want. Well maybe being, since son is in person, indicating 
Male, if a gender actually exists. And I guess house indicates some level of 
financial status.

Would you feel better about "dwelling being". 

"Keeping dwelling beings occupied and less nervous" does that make you feel 
better?

 

Fyi, that's specifically the reason I have my wife, who is suffering severe 
post partum depression in the middle of the end of the world, looking for 
templates on making masks, so i dont come home to the real world consequense of 
my babies drown in the bathtub. I'm not quite sure if her doing that would be 
PC or not.

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 11:56 PM Bruce Robertson mailto:br...@pooh.com> > wrote:

“keeping housewives occupied and less nervous”

 

Really?  You’re aware this is 2020, right?





On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:18 PM, Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:



You asked

 

What was recomended by the White House. Regional opening with result driven 
response. (Without rhetoric, example, my county TRIPLED its cases over the 
weekend. It went from 1 to 3, the 2 new ones are related, so the increase is 
pretty irrelevant.) Tracing is more important than testing. That's just a 
matter of fact, testing is a slice in time, you can be infected, and test 
negative if you were recently infected, you can get infected at a test site. 
You can test positive from an environmental exposure without having actually 
caught it. It's like MRSA of the nairs. 

 

Once identified, the tracing leads back to likely hotspots. I'd personally put 
the bulk of the funding into tracing. Use every bit of data volunteered. 
Particularly request the tracking data from mobile devices. If its volunteered, 
you have a map. If they dont, well, you work with what you have.

"Testing" is a tool of politics. The only way to effectively test would be real 
time monitoring. Which A. Doesnt exist and B. Wouldn't be feasible.

 

The governors each now have in their possession the location of every single 
test processing facility in the nation. So what little relevance testing 
actually plays in management is their responsibility to delegate coordination. 
So it's a moot issue.

 

Any location exposed in tracing gets a mandatory scrub scrub (to be honest, I 
dont understand any public venue that wouldn't be surface decontaminating once 
ever 24 hours minimum anyway, there's no shortage of killitol level 
disinfectants)

 

I think the mandatory face covering is nonsense. If it were mandatory rated 
filtration masks that would be different. 

But there isnt a production capacity for that on the entire planet. But since 
it makes people feel like they're doing something, I'm all for it. Placebo is 
actually a powerful medication for much of what ails society. Plus the homemade 
masks are keeping housewives occupied and less nervous. That actually matters.

 

Occasionally a tracing may require a mandatory compensated closure. Example 
being a county here in illinois that has a processor who has over 20 employees 
infected, they're still operational. There is autonomy and constitutional 
rights, and then there is stupidity and a true public health risk. That falls 
under the latter and should be closed pending decontamination.

 

A forcible closure, from a document able and legitimate public health risk 
should require medical screening of all staff/administration prior to resuming 
activities. There is no shortage of available healthcare practitioners right 
now, so depts of public health can contract that . Once again, the focus should 
be on tracing. Heavily funded tracing. "Patient zero" in the above mentioned 
case has probably long since recovered. Tracing is where they are identified, 
as theyll test negative now. Cases like this are where antibody testing should 
be prioritized, assuming there is consent.

 

Tracing

 

The same applies to public venues. If tracing identifies probable 
contamination, the venue scrubs. Applicable staff are cleared, tracing, tracing 
tracing. Video surveillance has a huge role where it is voluntarily submitted. 
Voluntarily being key and subjective, since it will be a

Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

https://mikrotik.com/product/pw48v_12v85w 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Josh Baird"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 7:54:56 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out 



Actually, the 1016/1036 are 24VDC, not 48VDC. The 1009 is 48VDC. 


On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




The CCR 2004 can take the same +- 48 vDC power supply as the current generation 
CCR1016 and CCR1036. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Kurt Fankhauser" < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11:28 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out 


Is the power options for this CCR2004 only AC power? If so that is a going to 
be a huge issue for most of the sites I have that are DC powered! I need 
routers with 10G SFP+ ports that can be powered from DC/AC 


On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 



You guys all need to calm the heck down with this talk, you're gonna get us all 
killed. Look at what the lunatics are doing to the 5g operators. When they find 
out afmug is over here operating 25 40 and 100g networks, theyll send out armys 
of Karen's with the short hair to put our heads on pikes. We have worked too 
hard over the years building this industry up for us to all be skinned alive 
when Janet or Kyle find the afmug archive. 


On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 8:04 AM Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




I agree if it's a transport system or a modern switch. If it's an older switch, 
40G is all it's got, no 25G and no 100G. Who buys new switches when a switch is 
a switch and there's a large supply of older switches? Yes, obviously there's a 
demand, but it's not going to be most of us in this room. 


When I have actually gotten quotes for 40G transport, they were more than 4x 
10G and about the same as 100G (though I had no 100G equipment). In those 
scenarios, a 25G wave would actually do great. Well, other than needing new 
switches which aren't cheap. 




In one facility in Indy, we offer 1G, 10G, 25G, 40G, and 100G. :-) We're 
rolling out 40G in another, but the rest will stay 10G for the time being. I 
suppose we could always put a 25G customer on, just bypassing the switch in 
that building and going right into the mux to the central switch. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Trey Scarborough" < t...@3dsc.co > 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 5:34:16 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out 


you are only comparing SFP transceiver cost. The reason why it is dead is 
transport equipment and switch equipment you pretty much are burning a 100G 
port to do 40g there are some 100G 2x40 transponders out there but they are the 
same cost as a 200G 2x100G transponder so if you go to order a 40G wave service 
it will cost you the same as a 100G maybe more if they have to use an OTU4 to 
40GLANPHY card. As well most switches being deployed by providers are 
100G/25G/10G and don't have 40G ports. so you hae to burn a 100G port to 
provide 40G therefor the cost is priced accordingly. 

Is it dead in the data center space for the most part to because the power 
requirements vs speed is horrible uses almost as much power as a 100G and only 
get 40% of the bandwidth. The power for a 25G is comparable to 10G. Starting to 
see 25G IX connection options as well. 

Don't worry you are going to start seeing a bunch more 25G options coming out 
because the demand is growing. There are already companies starting to sell 25G 
channelized DWDM optics. The price at the moment is high because they are new 
and the demand is low, but will greatly reduce the cost the more that the 
utilization grows. 



On 4/24/2020 10:07 AM, Steven Kenney wrote: 




That is up for debate but we'll see in a few years. I'd rather jump to 40 than 
25. You almost defeated your own point stating you have a lot of 40G laying 
around. Price has come down on them and transceivers are not as expensive 
either. Personally I'd rather jump to 100 :) 


40G transceivers I can get for most models for $55. (short range) Same price 
for 25G! Why bother with 25? 
Short range 100G are under $200 each. 




-- 
Steven Kenney 
Network Operations Manager 
WaveDirect Telecommunications 
http://www.wavedirect.net 
(519)737-WAVE (9283) 



From: "Kurt Fankhauser"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 10:03:36 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out 




Dennis,how many of these do you have on order? 


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:42 AM Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




25G will be far more common than 40G. 

40G is dead and has been dead for years. I wish

Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out

2020-04-26 Thread Josh Baird

Actually, the 1016/1036 are 24VDC, not 48VDC.  The 1009 is 48VDC.

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> The CCR 2004 can take the same +- 48 vDC power supply as the current
> generation CCR1016 and CCR1036.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11:28 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>
> Is the power options for this CCR2004 only AC power? If so that is a going
> to be a huge issue for most of the sites I have that are DC powered! I need
> routers with 10G SFP+ ports that can be powered from DC/AC
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> You guys all need to calm the heck down with this talk, you're gonna get
>> us all killed. Look at what the lunatics are doing to the 5g operators.
>> When they find out afmug is over here operating 25 40 and 100g networks,
>> theyll send out armys of Karen's with the short hair to put our heads on
>> pikes. We have worked too hard over the years building this industry up for
>> us to all be skinned alive when Janet or Kyle find the afmug archive.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 8:04 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree if it's a transport system or a modern switch. If it's an older
>>> switch, 40G is all it's got, no 25G and no 100G. Who buys new switches when
>>> a switch is a switch and there's a large supply of older switches? Yes,
>>> obviously there's a demand, but it's not going to be most of us in this
>>> room.
>>>
>>> When I have actually gotten quotes for 40G transport, they were more
>>> than 4x 10G and about the same as 100G (though I had no 100G equipment). In
>>> those scenarios, a 25G wave would actually do great. Well, other than
>>> needing new switches which aren't cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>> In one facility in Indy, we offer 1G, 10G, 25G, 40G, and 100G.  :-)
>>> We're rolling out 40G in another, but the rest will stay 10G for the time
>>> being. I suppose we could always put a 25G customer on, just bypassing the
>>> switch in that building and going right into the mux to the central switch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Trey Scarborough" 
>>> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Friday, April 24, 2020 5:34:16 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out
>>>
>>> you are only comparing SFP transceiver cost. The reason why it is dead
>>> is transport equipment and switch equipment you pretty much are burning a
>>> 100G port to do 40g there are some 100G 2x40 transponders out there but
>>> they are the same cost as a 200G  2x100G transponder so if you go to order
>>> a 40G wave service it will cost you the same as a 100G maybe more if they
>>> have to use an OTU4 to 40GLANPHY card. As well most switches being deployed
>>> by providers are 100G/25G/10G and don't have 40G ports. so you hae to burn
>>> a 100G port to provide 40G therefor the cost is priced accordingly.
>>>
>>> Is it dead in the data center space for the most part to because the
>>> power requirements vs speed is horrible uses almost as much power as a 100G
>>> and only get 40% of the bandwidth. The power for a 25G is comparable to
>>> 10G. Starting to see 25G IX connection options as well.
>>>
>>> Don't worry you are going to start seeing a bunch more 25G options
>>> coming out because the demand is growing. There are already companies
>>> starting to sell 25G channelized DWDM optics. The price at the moment is
>>> high because they are new and the demand is low, but will greatly reduce
>>> the cost the more that the utilization grows.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/24/2020 10:07 AM, Steven Kenney wrote:
>>>
>>> That is up for debate but we'll

Re: [AFMUG] OT Fun



 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Fun

 

I'm getting a haircut and shave tommorrow. You may all bow before me.

 

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 11:39 AM Jaime Solorza mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I am not dead yet

 

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:51 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

If this goes on, we can all rock the John Legere retirement look.

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 6:39 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Fun

https://dilbert.com/search_results?terms=Neal


-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 6:00 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Fun

Unless you are going all in without a guard, it’s helpful to have someone who 
get get the back of your neck for you.

My wife is 5’3” and I’m over 6’2”...I have to kneel, which she believes is my 
proper position before her!  :-)

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 6:54 PM, Jay Weekley   > wrote:
> 
> Is it hard to give yourself a buzz?  Have you done it before?
> 
> ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:
>> Barbershops and hair parlors are all closed out here.  Too much longer and I 
>> will give myself a buzz.
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Caleb Knauer Sent: Friday, April 24,
>> 2020 3:48 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT 
>> Fun Noticing more and more buzz cuts in our video meetings lately.
>> Luckily summer time makes it more feasible.
>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:08 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> When I get a crew cut am I appropriating skin head culture?
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Jay Weekley
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 12:55 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Fun
>>> 
>>> Actually, I can rock an afro.  I was actually looking for my afro 
>>> pick earlier today.  Seriously.
>>> 
>>> ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:
>>> > We all knew you were a troll.
>>> > -Original Message- From: Jay Weekley Sent: Thursday, April 
>>> > 23,
>>> > 2020 11:05 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re:
>>> > [AFMUG] OT Fun
>>> > I'm contemplating some dire options.  My hair grows out, not 
>>> > downs, so I'll look more like the guy that lives under a bridge than a 
>>> > hippy.
>>> >
>>> > ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *Jay Weekley*
>>> *Cyber Broadband
>>> *
>>> 
>>> --
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>>> https://www.avg.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com  
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com  
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> 
> 
> --
> *Jay Weekley*
> *Cyber Broadband
> *
> 
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com  
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

2020-04-26 Thread Adam Moffett


I'm happy they're doing this.

My only question is which devices can do 6ghz with just a firmware 
change and which ones need new hardware?



On 4/24/2020 5:37 PM, Caleb Knauer wrote:

ULS is gonna have to get way more gerbils, it barely runs on a good day.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:25 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:

Everyone on the unlicensed side is now claiming that this was their baby, but if 
you really want to do know where the influence came from - follow the lobbying and 
follow the money.  Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple & Google spent over $16 
million in 1st Qtr of 2020 - this thing didn't spring up over night and the $$$ 
spent on this over the last five years is astronomical.  It took a ton of lobbying 
at both the FCC and Congress just to get to the Rule Making process that started on 
Oct 1, 2018, and the RM garnered over 700 comments, reply comments and ex-parte 
filings.

The success / failure of this relies heavily on the AFC to adequately protect 
both existing and new incumbents.  Standard power devices must check-in with 
the AFC at least once a day.  The AFC will rely solely on ULS (per FCC 
requirement) and it is widely recognized that ULS has major problems and 
deficiencies - in fact, the WTB will be issuing a Public Notice reminding 
licensees of their duty to ensure that their licenses are complete and 
accurate.  The AFC systems must go through a testing and certification process 
and this will further delay things.  Its going to take some time for all of 
this before devices that require the AFC to be used.

FYI - in a letter dated January 2018, the RLAN group that includes Apple, 
Broadcom, Cisco and HP projects over 958,062,017 unlicensed devices at 6 GHz.

On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Tim Withrow via AF  wrote:

After posting this I seen an article that said they (WFA) was the crusader. 
Wispa seems to be a member of that group as well.
https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-6




On Thursday, April 23, 2020 Tim Reichhart  wrote:

I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it WISPA 
isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.




-Original Message-
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Date: 04/23/20 10:14
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies dropped 
that made it happen?

On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen  wrote:

The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of them. 
They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power (WiFi6) usage.

I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of the 
goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
man/small business.

So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  wrote:

FCC has total authority over these bands.

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser  
wrote:

How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
Congress?


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser  
wrote:

yes you are right.


Erich Kaiser
North Central Tower
er...@northcentraltower.com
Office: 815-570-3101





On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

More like 4.9 to 7.



From: AF  On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum



Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean heavily, so 
really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum proposed will 
likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability standpoint it will 
be tough to count on a system that uses AFC in general.   What about the 
Antenna being used on these APs are they going to be able to cover the entire 
band from 5Ghz to 6Ghz efficiently?  Just thinking...








Erich Kaiser

North Central Tower

er...@northcentraltower.com

Office: 815-570-3101






On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 5:24 PM Sean Heskett  wrote:

from Fred Goldstein via the wispa list:



"There are really two different types of devices approved today. A Standard Power device, 
allowed +36 dBm EIRP, must communicate daily with an AFC that determines what frequencies are 
available at its location. It must have geolocation. (We are waiting to see the final Order to 
see how the "client AP" is handled.) The rules for the AFC are reasonably 
conservative, so the licensed PtP users are generally pretty happy with it. And a whole bunch 
of companies have already been working on AFCs.


The Low Power Indoor device, on the other hand, does not require AFC. It is 
limited to indoor use only (must have mains power, may

Re: [AFMUG] OT Dang, not normal

2020-04-26 Thread Adam Moffett

I relate to this.  The real answer right now is "we don't know what the 
real answer is".


Frustrating as hell.


On 4/26/2020 3:14 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I'm going to add this to this discussion:

We still don't know the denominator of how many cases there actually 
are.   Or even how many digits are in that number.


If you take the 'confirmed cases' today worldwide and divide it by the 
deaths, this results in a 7% fatality rate for *confirmed* cases.  
 This would be truly horrific if this was the real rate, but we all 
know that many people have had this but aren't counted as confirmed 
cases, so the actual rate is lower.


We don't know if for every confirmed case there are zero, five, ten, 
twenty, fifty, or even a hundred non-confirmed cases.


Taking just the USA, if the ratio of confirmed to actual is 1:10, then 
we really have 9.39 million cases in the US, and the fatality rate is 
only 0.5% - or if due to delays from confirmation to death, you use 
cases a week ago, it would be a bit higher at 0.8%.   This is still 
high enough that taking drastic measures is in the realm of acceptable 
behaviors, and I wouldn't argue against taking the measures we have 
done, if for no other


If the ratio is more like 1:100, then 29% of us have had it, and the 
death rate is under 0.1%.   This is starting to get into flu 
territory, and starts getting into the realm of "was it worth it".  If 
it is even higher, then we'll all be looking at it and saying that 
this has been a stupid exercise.   Worse, next time when it is 
actually horrible enough to take drastic actions, people will just 
start whining about how the government was wrong last time so they 
must be wrong this time.


Either way, the lack of testing has really shot us in the foot here.  
 If it's not nearly as deadly as is currently thought, then being able 
to do some statistical sampling through testing would have shown that, 
and we wouldn't have reacted like we did.   On the other hand, if it 
is still fairly high, then adequate testing would have helped us do 
contact tracing, would have helped us determine a lot more about 
transmissibility earlier, and so on.  All of this would have added up 
to saved lives and less economic impact.  A couple years from now once 
we're really able to look back at this with some clarity, it will be 
interesting to look at this all through the lens of history.


In my state (Montana), I feel like the correct actions were largely 
taken at the right time.   We shut down early, and as a result our 
state was apparently actually able to do full contract tracing and 
contain outbreaks fairly quickly.  There are still a few areas where 
new cases are popping up one or two a day, but the trend has been 
downward for long enough that our governor has started lifting 
previous restrictions, on a phased and reasonable approach largely 
mirroring the federally promoted plan.   I'm hopeful that this is the 
beginning of the end, but I guess time will tell.



On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:24 PM Chuck Macenski > wrote:


As I understand your position: Historical contact tracing (where
data is made voluntarily by individuals and businesses) of patents
who present with symptoms, coupled with frequent cleanings of
public places, is the appropriate response. People are encouraged,
but not required, to share tracing data. Testing is not ruled out,
but organized testing of the population is not required as part of
tracing. The scope of any localized shutdown would be measured
using the current local hospital capacity at that moment in time.


I appreciate your taking the time to help me understand your position.


On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:18 PM Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

You asked

What was recomended by the White House. Regional opening with
result driven response. (Without rhetoric, example, my county
TRIPLED its cases over the weekend. It went from 1 to 3, the 2
new ones are related, so the increase is pretty irrelevant.)
Tracing is more important than testing. That's just a matter
of fact, testing is a slice in time, you can be infected, and
test negative if you were recently infected, you can get
infected at a test site. You can test positive from an
environmental exposure without having actually caught it. It's
like MRSA of the nairs.

Once identified, the tracing leads back to likely hotspots.
I'd personally put the bulk of the funding into tracing. Use
every bit of data volunteered. Particularly request the
tracking data from mobile devices. If its volunteered, you
have a map. If they dont, well, you work with what you have.
"Testing" is a tool of politics. The only way to effectively
test would be real time monitoring. Which A. Doesnt exist and
B.

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Actually, they are eligible but only in the same areas that other Part 101 
licensees would be eligible.  They are not eligible under Part 74.

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Tim Hardy  wrote:
> 
> Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett > > wrote:
>> 
>> Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>   
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>   
>>  
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> From: "Caleb Knauer" > >
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" > >
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> 
>> The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been
>> involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers
>> and fade margins.  Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big
>> voice with the feds.  AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle.
>> But we shall see.
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof > > wrote:
>> >
>> > But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on 
>> > rain fade characteristics.  And there are many existing links.  Just 
>> > saying your spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go 
>> > away, and the service carried on those existing links is often critical 
>> > traffic.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>> > Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
>> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM
>> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > >
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more 
>> > and more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
>> > utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart 
>> > mailto:timreichh...@hometowncable.net>> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
>> > WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: "Matt Hoppes" > > >
>> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" > > >
>> > Date: 04/23/20 10:14
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> >
>> > So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies 
>> > dropped that made it happen?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
>> > companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
>> > them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power 
>> > (WiFi6) usage.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out 
>> > of the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the 
>> > common man/small business.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > FCC has total authority over these bands.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
>> > Congress?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > yes you are right.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Erich Kaiser
>> >
>> > North Central Tower
>> >
>> > er...@northcentraltower.com 
>> >
>> > Office: 815-570-3101
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > More like 4.9 to 7.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>> > Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
>> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
>> > To:

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

Radio is not eligible for 7 GHz

> On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Mike Hammett  > wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't they be in 7 GHz?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Caleb Knauer"  >
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  >
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 4:46:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> 
> The majority of broadcast TV and radio STL replacements I've been
> involved with have been 6Ghz due to distances to transmitter towers
> and fade margins.  Those aren't going away, and they have a pretty big
> voice with the feds.  AFC feels like it could be quite the boondoggle.
> But we shall see.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:39 AM Ken Hohhof  > wrote:
> >
> > But unlike 11/18/23 GHz it can be used for PTP links >10 miles based on 
> > rain fade characteristics.  And there are many existing links.  Just saying 
> > your spectrum would be nice for indoor WiFi doesn’t make them go away, and 
> > the service carried on those existing links is often critical traffic.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
> > Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:29 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  > >
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> >
> >
> > Honestly I think that 6ghz licensed is becoming less practical. As more and 
> > more fiber is run to the tower the 6ghz band would be much more better 
> > utilized for last mile PTMP and indoor wifi.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:30 PM Tim Reichhart 
> > mailto:timreichh...@hometowncable.net>> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
> > WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Matt Hoppes"  > >
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  > >
> > Date: 04/23/20 10:14
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> > So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies 
> > dropped that made it happen?
> >
> >
> > On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen  > > wrote:
> >
> > The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
> > companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
> > them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power 
> > (WiFi6) usage.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  > > wrote:
> >
> > There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
> > the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
> > man/small business.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  > > wrote:
> >
> > FCC has total authority over these bands.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser  > > wrote:
> >
> > How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
> > Congress?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser  > > wrote:
> >
> > yes you are right.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erich Kaiser
> >
> > North Central Tower
> >
> > er...@northcentraltower.com 
> >
> > Office: 815-570-3101
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  > > wrote:
> >
> > More like 4.9 to 7.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
> > Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  > >
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
> >
> >
> >
> > Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean 
> > heavily, so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum 
> > proposed will likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability 
> > standpoint it will

Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum

ULS is just the data set that will be used - the software and hardware will be 
state-of-the-art.

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Caleb Knauer  wrote:
> 
> ULS is gonna have to get way more gerbils, it barely runs on a good day.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:25 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>> 
>> Everyone on the unlicensed side is now claiming that this was their baby, 
>> but if you really want to do know where the influence came from - follow the 
>> lobbying and follow the money.  Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple & Google 
>> spent over $16 million in 1st Qtr of 2020 - this thing didn't spring up over 
>> night and the $$$ spent on this over the last five years is astronomical.  
>> It took a ton of lobbying at both the FCC and Congress just to get to the 
>> Rule Making process that started on Oct 1, 2018, and the RM garnered over 
>> 700 comments, reply comments and ex-parte filings.
>> 
>> The success / failure of this relies heavily on the AFC to adequately 
>> protect both existing and new incumbents.  Standard power devices must 
>> check-in with the AFC at least once a day.  The AFC will rely solely on ULS 
>> (per FCC requirement) and it is widely recognized that ULS has major 
>> problems and deficiencies - in fact, the WTB will be issuing a Public Notice 
>> reminding licensees of their duty to ensure that their licenses are complete 
>> and accurate.  The AFC systems must go through a testing and certification 
>> process and this will further delay things.  Its going to take some time for 
>> all of this before devices that require the AFC to be used.
>> 
>> FYI - in a letter dated January 2018, the RLAN group that includes Apple, 
>> Broadcom, Cisco and HP projects over 958,062,017 unlicensed devices at 6 GHz.
>> 
>> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Tim Withrow via AF  wrote:
>> 
>> After posting this I seen an article that said they (WFA) was the crusader. 
>> Wispa seems to be a member of that group as well.
>> https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-6
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 Tim Reichhart  wrote:
>> 
>> I dont think it was WISPA I think other companies had there fingers in it 
>> WISPA isnt that big in DC like some of these other companies.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Date: 04/23/20 10:14
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> 
>> So did WISPA make this happen?  Or was it the millions these companies 
>> dropped that made it happen?
>> 
>> On Apr 23, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Eric Nielsen  wrote:
>> 
>> The primary influencers behind the rule change are some small, no-name 
>> companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Broadcom. I doubt you've heard of 
>> them. They're interested in unlicensed 6GHz for the indoor low power (WiFi6) 
>> usage.
>> 
>> I'm certain they've dropped millions lobbying for this.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:45 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>> 
>> There must be some ulterior motive here there is no way that the FCC out of 
>> the goodness of their heart provided more unlicensed spectrum to the common 
>> man/small business.
>> 
>> So the question is who can utilize this spectrum?
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 6:35 PM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>> 
>> FCC has total authority over these bands.
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:29 PM Kurt Fankhauser  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> How can the FCC make spectrum available for un-licensed without an act of 
>> Congress?
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:30 PM Erich Kaiser  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> yes you are right.
>> 
>> 
>> Erich Kaiser
>> North Central Tower
>> er...@northcentraltower.com
>> Office: 815-570-3101
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>> 
>> More like 4.9 to 7.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 5:35 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New unlicensed spectrum
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Two of the UNII  bands are heavily used for licensed PTP and I mean heavily, 
>> so really if the AFC system works correctly most of the spectrum proposed 
>> will likely be unuseable outdoor.  I feel like from a reliability standpoint 
>> it will be tough to count on a system that uses AFC in general.   What about 
>> the Antenna being used on these APs are they going to be able to cover the 
>> entire band from 5Ghz to 6Ghz efficiently?  Just thinking...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Erich Kaiser
>> 
>> North Central Tower
>> 
>> er...@northcentraltower.com
>> 
>> Office: 815-570-3101
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 5:24 PM Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> 
>> from Fred Goldstein via the wispa list:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "There are really two different types of devices approved today. A Standard 
>> Power device, allowed +36 dBm EIRP, must communicate daily with an AFC that 
>> determines what frequencies are available at its location. It must have 
>>

Re: [AFMUG] CCR2004 coming out