date:20201113


  
  
Georgia doesn't make any difference one way or the other,
  although most networks declared Biden the winner there today.
  Suits filed in Michigan and Arizona have been dropped, and Biden
  was declared winner in both (not certified yet, but the margins
  are large enough to remove any doubt). If Georgia can somehow
  invalidate 14,000+ votes for Biden, then that will drop the Biden
  electoral votes to 290, which is still a win. That is a hard pull
  in the bogus vote bin; it's not like a Florida hanging chad thing
  of a couple hundred votes.

I think one way to do this is to set up a point system for all
  the possible twists and turns. 

Say give each day between November 20 and January 20 one point.
  Pick a date on which you think he will concede. If you hit the
  date, that's one point.
If you think he will or won't concede, that's one point for the
  correct choice.

We can maybe set a target number for how many people will be
  terminated between now and January 20, one point for the correct
  number (I think we're at 4 and counting so far).
One point for whether he needs to be escorted out on the last day
  (I think that's January 20).
That's all I can think of for now (and I'm ready for the sack
  tonight).
Maybe we can bet on whether there will be a civil war, which may
  be tough as the Mason-Dixon line is no longer valid today. All
  betting options are open.


bp

On 11/13/2020 9:39 PM, Forrest
  Christian (List Account) wrote:


  
  I figure the earliest anything is going to change
is once Georgia is done with their "Audit" next week.


I expect that there are Republican leaders who are hoping
  that Georgia finds something.  If they don't then that is
  going to put one of the final nails in the coffin (not that
  there aren't already plenty in it).  As far as what is going
  to happen at that point, I've given up guessing about 2020.   


There are concerning things going on, such as the firings
  at the pentagon.  One has to hope that those are revenge
  firings and not anything sinister. I'm also puzzled by the
  number of individuals who continue to fall in line behind
  trump even though it seems like it's all over at this point. 
  There has to be a motivation there, but I'm not sure I see how
  any of the possible explanations make sense.


As far as the original question: I don't think there will
  be a concession speech, or if there is one, it will be like
  the apology one gets out of a child when they're forced to
  apologize but don't want to - not really sincere at all. 






  
  
  
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:30
  PM  wrote:


  

  
I wish we could figure out how to make some money
  on this.  
 
Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232
  for Mt. T
 
I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon. 
  $5 
 
 
  

  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

2020-11-13 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

I figure the earliest anything is going to change is once Georgia is done
with their "Audit" next week.

I expect that there are Republican leaders who are hoping that Georgia
finds something.  If they don't then that is going to put one of the final
nails in the coffin (not that there aren't already plenty in it).  As far
as what is going to happen at that point, I've given up guessing about
2020.

There are concerning things going on, such as the firings at the pentagon.
One has to hope that those are revenge firings and not anything sinister.
I'm also puzzled by the number of individuals who continue to fall in line
behind trump even though it seems like it's all over at this point.  There
has to be a motivation there, but I'm not sure I see how any of the
possible explanations make sense.

As far as the original question: I don't think there will be a concession
speech, or if there is one, it will be like the apology one gets out of a
child when they're forced to apologize but don't want to - not really
sincere at all.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:30 PM  wrote:

> I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.
>
> Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
>
> I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool


In that case I put $5 on never.  That seems like a sure thing.

The bigger question to me isn't whether he would do that, it's whether 
he believes in his heart of hearts that he really won or whether it's 
all alpha posturing behavior.



On 11/13/2020 5:49 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
OK then to win the pool, Trump has to call Biden and wish him well.  
Congratulate him on his victory.

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 3:48 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.

It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology 



The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but 
will never concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate 
him, very possibly will not attend the inauguration.  Will forever 
claim he won.  The L word is not in his vocabulary. Like when Calvin 
slips and falls, then gets up and goes “Ta-daa!”


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

Is that your bet?  $5

*From:*Bill Prince

*Sent:*Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM

*To:*af@af.afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need 
to be escorted out of the White House?


bp


On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.

We would probably place that second bet.

*From:*ch...@wbmfg.com

*Sent:*Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM

*To:*af@af.afmug.com

*Subject:*OT A betting pool

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.

Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5





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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

2020-11-13 Thread Lewis Bergman

https://www.thesportsgeek.com/sportsbooks/political/

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 5:40 PM  wrote:

> I’m in.
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 4:20 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>
> I'm thinking the concession call will never happen.
>
> Who was the guy who ghost wrote Art of the Deal? Tony Schwartz? Way back
> in 2016, he thought that he would declare victory and quit. Well, he's
> declared victory, now all we need is for him to quit, and Tony will have
> been right.
>
> We need to set up a Bingo board with all the speculative outcomes First
> one with 5 right wins the kitty. If there are 25 of us with $5 each, one of
> us could walk away with $125.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:50 PM  wrote:
>
>> OK then to win the pool, Trump has to call Biden and wish him well.
>> Congratulate him on his victory.
>>
>> *From:* Ken Hohhof
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 3:48 PM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>>
>>
>> You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
>>
>>
>>
>> The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but will
>> never concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate him, very
>> possibly will not attend the inauguration.  Will forever claim he won.  The
>> L word is not in his vocabulary.  Like when Calvin slips and falls, then
>> gets up and goes “Ta-daa!”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>>
>>
>>
>> Is that your bet?  $5
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to
>> be escorted out of the White House?
>>
>>
>>
>> bp
>>
>> 
>>
>> On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>
>> And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.
>>
>> We would probably place that second bet.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ch...@wbmfg.com
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* OT A betting pool
>>
>>
>>
>> I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
>>
>>
>>
>> I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I’m in.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 4:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I'm thinking the concession call will never happen. 

Who was the guy who ghost wrote Art of the Deal? Tony Schwartz? Way back in 
2016, he thought that he would declare victory and quit. Well, he's declared 
victory, now all we need is for him to quit, and Tony will have been right.

We need to set up a Bingo board with all the speculative outcomes First one 
with 5 right wins the kitty. If there are 25 of us with $5 each, one of us 
could walk away with $125.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:50 PM  wrote:

  OK then to win the pool, Trump has to call Biden and wish him well.  
Congratulate him on his victory.  

  From: Ken Hohhof 
  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 3:48 PM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

  You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.

  It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

  The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but will 
never concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate him, very 
possibly will not attend the inauguration.  Will forever claim he won.  The L 
word is not in his vocabulary.  Like when Calvin slips and falls, then gets up 
and goes “Ta-daa!”

  From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

  Is that your bet?  $5

  From: Bill Prince 

  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM

  To: af@af.afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

  I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to be 
escorted out of the White House?

bpOn 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.  

We would probably place that second bet.  

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM

To: af@af.afmug.com 

Subject: OT A betting pool

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I'm thinking the concession call will never happen.

Who was the guy who ghost wrote Art of the Deal? Tony Schwartz? Way back in
2016, he thought that he would declare victory and quit. Well, he's
declared victory, now all we need is for him to quit, and Tony will have
been right.

We need to set up a Bingo board with all the speculative outcomes First one
with 5 right wins the kitty. If there are 25 of us with $5 each, one of us
could walk away with $125.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:50 PM  wrote:

> OK then to win the pool, Trump has to call Biden and wish him well.
> Congratulate him on his victory.
>
> *From:* Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 3:48 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>
>
> You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.
>
>
>
> It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
>
>
>
> The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but will
> never concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate him, very
> possibly will not attend the inauguration.  Will forever claim he won.  The
> L word is not in his vocabulary.  Like when Calvin slips and falls, then
> gets up and goes “Ta-daa!”
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>
>
>
> Is that your bet?  $5
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM
>
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool
>
>
>
> I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to be
> escorted out of the White House?
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.
>
> We would probably place that second bet.
>
>
>
> *From:* ch...@wbmfg.com
>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM
>
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* OT A betting pool
>
>
>
> I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.
>
>
>
> Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
>
>
>
> I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

OK then to win the pool, Trump has to call Biden and wish him well.  
Congratulate him on his victory.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 3:48 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.

It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but will never 
concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate him, very possibly will 
not attend the inauguration.  Will forever claim he won.  The L word is not in 
his vocabulary.  Like when Calvin slips and falls, then gets up and goes 
“Ta-daa!”

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

Is that your bet?  $5

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM

To: af@af.afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to be 
escorted out of the White House?

bpOn 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.  

  We would probably place that second bet.  

  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 

  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM

  To: af@af.afmug.com 

  Subject: OT A betting pool

  I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

  Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

  I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

You can’t bet on conceding unless you define “concede”.

 

It’s like nobody apologizes anymore, they issue a non-apology apology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

 

The consensus seems to be he will eventually accept and move on but will never 
concede, will probably never call Biden or congratulate him, very possibly will 
not attend the inauguration.  Will forever claim he won.  The L word is not in 
his vocabulary.  Like when Calvin slips and falls, then gets up and goes 
“Ta-daa!”

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 4:19 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

 

Is that your bet?  $5

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

 

I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to be 
escorted out of the White House?

 

bp


On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.  

We would probably place that second bet.  

 

From: ch...@wbmfg.com   

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: OT A betting pool

 

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

 

Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

 

I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

 

 





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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

Is that your bet?  $5

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:36 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will need to be 
escorted out of the White House?

bp
On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.  
  We would probably place that second bet.  

  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: OT A betting pool

  I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

  Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

  I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

2020-11-13 Thread Cassidy B. Larson

Can we take a bet on when he’ll release his new "behind-the-resolute-desk" TV 
show?  I was always wondering if he had a camera crew following him around for 
the last 4 years for a future TV show. If you thought keeping up with the 
kardashians was bad, wait for this monstrosity.

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Carl Peterson  wrote:
> 
> Funny but that was exactly Trump's margin with Clinton (Although there were a 
> few faithless electors) which he called something like "an electoral college 
> landslide".  I'm pretty sure it won't come down to escorting him out of the 
> white house but I don't think he will ever concede.  Why would he?  It would 
> preclude him from milking the faithful to pay off his campaign debts and fund 
> his new PAC.  
> 
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:53 PM Nate Burke  > wrote:
> The local radio station just did a contest as to when they would turn on the 
> xmas music this year.  You submitted your date/time and if you were right you 
> won $1k.  
> 
> I'm sure there's some Vegas bookmaker that would happily take your money on 
> this.  Didn't I hear that they were the first ones to announce the winner 
> before any of the news organizations?  
> 
> On 11/13/2020 3:29 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:
>> I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this. 
>>  
>> Wapo shows itâ€™s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
>>  
>> I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

2020-11-13 Thread Carl Peterson

Funny but that was exactly Trump's margin with Clinton (Although there were
a few faithless electors) which he called something like "an electoral
college landslide".  I'm pretty sure it won't come down to escorting him
out of the white house but I don't think he will ever concede.  Why would
he?  It would preclude him from milking the faithful to pay off his
campaign debts and fund his new PAC.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:53 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> The local radio station just did a contest as to when they would turn on
> the xmas music this year.  You submitted your date/time and if you were
> right you won $1k.
>
> I'm sure there's some Vegas bookmaker that would happily take your money
> on this.  Didn't I hear that they were the first ones to announce the
> winner before any of the news organizations?
>
> On 11/13/2020 3:29 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.
>
> Wapo shows itâ€™s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
>
> I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>

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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

2020-11-13 Thread Nate Burke

The local radio station just did a contest as to when they would turn on 
the xmas music this year.  You submitted your date/time and if you were 
right you won $1k.


I'm sure there's some Vegas bookmaker that would happily take your money 
on this.  Didn't I hear that they were the first ones to announce the 
winner before any of the news organizations?


On 11/13/2020 3:29 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.
Wapo shows itâ€™s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T
I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5




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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool


  
  
I would like to see a show of hands for those who think he will
  need to be escorted out of the White House?


bp

On 11/13/2020 1:31 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  
  

  And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is
unfair.  
  We would probably place that second bet.  
  

   
  
From: ch...@wbmfg.com

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: OT A betting pool
  

 
  
  

  
I wish we could figure out how to make some money
  on this.  
 
Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232
  for Mt. T
 
I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon. 
  $5 
 
 
  

  

  
  
  

  


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Re: [AFMUG] OT A betting pool

And another bet with him never conceding...  but that is unfair.  
We would probably place that second bet.  

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 2:29 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: OT A betting pool

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

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[AFMUG] OT A betting pool

I wish we could figure out how to make some money on this.  

Wapo shows it’s now  done at 306 for Biden and 232 for Mt. T

I will take Trump conceding December 14th at noon.  $5 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

2020-11-13 Thread Nate Burke


Hmm, I have a pixel4 and still got the notice.

On 11/13/2020 1:56 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
The article I read said that all current Pixel phones would continue 
to have unlimited storage, but that it would not be extended to 
"future" Pixel phones.



bp


On 11/13/2020 11:47 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
Got a notice yesterday that in June Google will be discontinuing 
'free' storage of Google Photos.  All photos and videos synced from 
your phone will now count against your storage allotment.  I thought 
it was interesting that 'unlimited' photo storage was a feature on 
the Pixel4 line, but that phrase was absent on the Pixel5 sales 
pages.  I guess they must be running out of storage capacity.


Either that, or they now have enough photos that their AI replication 
bots can seamless start integrating into society and start replacing 
those pesky meat bags that might decide to investigate them one day.







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Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

2020-11-13 Thread Jaime Solorza

Arizona! Adios muchacho

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 10:18 AM justsumname  wrote:

> Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is NOT
> 'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
> Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 'undermining' the
> country.   Just the opposite.
> Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know what
> 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT the Trump side ...
>
> Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept the
> election after all states were certified..
>
> If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it.   Everyone should
> desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way.   Especially nowadays.
>
> --
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> Morons can say what they will, because that's what they do, like trained
>> monkeys. "Orange man bad", good little trainee.
>> I can tell you this, they gave my dad his first dose of remdesivere
>> tonite, you can rest assured, podunk Illinois wouldnt be giving podunk 78
>> year old man a medication like that as a first line med if the scamdemic
>> hadn't been handled like a boss. See pandemic is pandemic, there is no such
>> thing as "handling it right" l anybody who says there is is a part of the
>> above mentioned group of morons.
>>
>> 50 50 if the old man comes home. But my orange "buffoon" opened a door
>> that got his odds up from the original 80 percent coffin rate.
>>
>> That's what I laugh at "orange man bad" idiots that spout their
>> hypocrisy, bigotry and generally retarded tripe.
>>
>> Rotflmao, however some more cliches... the change my mind
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:27 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>>
>>> If Trump were trying to undermine the United States, what would he be
>>> doing differently?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:14 PM Robert  wrote:
>>>
 Having the DOJ chase down military people who vote out of state for
 years because of normal military transfers ( 3K so far in NV ) which has
 been the normal state of affairs for over 70 years and characterize that as
 voter fraud is going a little bit too far in my book.  I still am hoping
 that he is going after that more about raising money than actually thinking
 he can corrupt the belief in the voting system.

 On 11/11/20 7:38 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

 I don’t agree at all.  Trump got elected because more than half the
 country really really really disliked Hillary.

 Really really really disliked Hillary.

 I don’t know of anyone that voted for Trump because they liked him.
 Everyone I know thought he was an ass hat from the get go.

 Second, you all have seen, first hand, for 4 years how little a
 president can actually do to harm a country.  Not much.  He didn’t start
 any wars so that is about the most damaging thing he can do.  He didn’t act
 on the virus properly but lots of countries fall into the same category.
 He embarrassed us on the world stage.  That is about it.  Congress can
 affect us.  Presidents not so much.

 We have always had nationalists here.  It is part of the culture.  Some
 call it patriotism. I don’t think it is bad.  I am not a globalist.  I
 support our country and our national interests above other nations.  Part
 of rooting for the home team.  Being a patriot is a far stretch from
 dictatorship.

 *From:* Jaime Solorza
 *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:01 AM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

 The scariest part is how many actually voted for an inept nationalist
 xenophobic clown ...it portends of bad things ahead. Study history and you
 will see how this nationalism fervor led to Nazi growth in Europe...
 The proof is overwhelming...
 Prove me wrong.

 On Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:41 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

> I cant take credit on that one
>
> Heres some crazy stuff, I'm pretty sure offering up campaign funds for
> anything other than a campaign is illegal.
> I told you guys, this is gonna get hilarious. By the time it's all
> said and done, theyll find 100 percent evidence biden cheated and there
> will be no republicans left not in prison for the RNC to put in the big
> seat.
>
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-offers-dollar1-million-in-campaign-funds-for-voter-fraud-evidence
>
> Was reading another article from one of the mainstreams about what
> happens if there is no certification and the congress has to vote in a new
> potus, apparently it's not limited to the two candidates, it's got to do
> with aggregate votes and would potentially leave bernie sanders in a
> position to be president. Its was MSM and they're full of shit all the 
> time
> but it sounded go

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

Someone I "know" was tasked with finding a place to put some surplus 
equipment in a nuclear physics lab on a campus.  This person could not find 
any shelf space.  There were however dozens of banker boxes full of punch 
cards.  Seems it was the raw data that one of the professors had based his 
doctoral dissertation upon.  You can complete this story...


-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 12:55 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

Google Drive is also now going to empty your trash after 30 days.

Reminds me of the Dilbert strip where the Records Retention clerk just 
throws the stuff out, saying his job got easier when he realized nobody ever 
asked for the stuff back.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

Got a notice yesterday that in June Google will be discontinuing 'free'
storage of Google Photos.  All photos and videos synced from your phone will 
now count against your storage allotment.  I thought it was interesting that 
'unlimited' photo storage was a feature on the Pixel4 line, but that phrase 
was absent on the Pixel5 sales pages.  I guess they must be running out of 
storage capacity.


Either that, or they now have enough photos that their AI replication bots 
can seamless start integrating into society and start replacing those pesky 
meat bags that might decide to investigate them one day.


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Re: [AFMUG] new C.O.D.

2020-11-13 Thread castarritt

Good news is there is a limited production capacity for all of these tech
toys.  Bad news is they will likely all sell out.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 6:28 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> im dreading this holiday season
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 6:16 PM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Came out today. 186 gigabytes in size. Resicukous.
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:14 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Did it release already?  I’ve had my first request to up a customer’s
>> speed tier and they are maxed out all day.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

The article I read said that all current Pixel phones would continue to 
have unlimited storage, but that it would not be extended to "future" 
Pixel phones.



bp


On 11/13/2020 11:47 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
Got a notice yesterday that in June Google will be discontinuing 
'free' storage of Google Photos.  All photos and videos synced from 
your phone will now count against your storage allotment.  I thought 
it was interesting that 'unlimited' photo storage was a feature on the 
Pixel4 line, but that phrase was absent on the Pixel5 sales pages.  I 
guess they must be running out of storage capacity.


Either that, or they now have enough photos that their AI replication 
bots can seamless start integrating into society and start replacing 
those pesky meat bags that might decide to investigate them one day.




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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

Google Drive is also now going to empty your trash after 30 days.

Reminds me of the Dilbert strip where the Records Retention clerk just throws 
the stuff out, saying his job got easier when he realized nobody ever asked for 
the stuff back.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

Got a notice yesterday that in June Google will be discontinuing 'free' 
storage of Google Photos.  All photos and videos synced from your phone will 
now count against your storage allotment.  I thought it was interesting that 
'unlimited' photo storage was a feature on the Pixel4 line, but that phrase was 
absent on the Pixel5 sales pages.  I guess they must be running out of storage 
capacity.

Either that, or they now have enough photos that their AI replication bots can 
seamless start integrating into society and start replacing those pesky meat 
bags that might decide to investigate them one day.

--
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[AFMUG] OT: Google must be running out of Disk Space

2020-11-13 Thread Nate Burke

Got a notice yesterday that in June Google will be discontinuing 'free' 
storage of Google Photos.  All photos and videos synced from your phone 
will now count against your storage allotment.  I thought it was 
interesting that 'unlimited' photo storage was a feature on the Pixel4 
line, but that phrase was absent on the Pixel5 sales pages.  I guess 
they must be running out of storage capacity.


Either that, or they now have enough photos that their AI replication 
bots can seamless start integrating into society and start replacing 
those pesky meat bags that might decide to investigate them one day.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

The older I get, the more shades of gray I see.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 11:47 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

There is (currently) a segment of the population that wants things to be clear 
cut. Up-down, left-right, north-south, male-female.

I think (I'm spitballing here, so don't get bent out of shape) that that 
segment gets their knickers in a twist when something (anything) doesn't fall 
into clean lines one way or the other. As I've gotten older, I have learned 
that almost no topic falls into the either-or category. 

The whole LGBTQ (can we pick one letter please? We will run out of alphabet.) 
is a great example. The fact is that people have never been just two sexes. 
There are, in fact, a whole range of expressions of sex that are too numerous 
to count. Some people can qualify as both, for example.

At any rate, when people start shouting, my inclination is to cross over to the 
other side of the street.

bp
On 11/13/2020 9:47 AM, Robert wrote:

  Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in regards to the 
US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is just getting to me.   Growing up 
in the 50's and 60's we knew what communism is/was and the US has never ever 
_ever_ been close to supporting communism.   We have been closer to having 
islamic fundamentalism than communism.   Radicals exist on BOTH sides of the 
divide.   Anyone out and the edges of the bell curve is a "Radical".   And 
there are plenty on both sides to go around.   One side tends to have more guns 
than the other.   Socialism is the idea that society pulls together when it's 
good for everyone, and we have plenty of that.   Fire departments, water 
departments, Social Security where the companies have to contribute 1/2 of the 
payment. (not applicable to self-employed ).   Medicare, Medicaid, these are 
all examples of a society that cares for the less fortunate and decides that we 
care about our fellow individuals.  When, basically, the whole rest of the 
world says that these are good things and that they should do even more, why 
don't we and both sides of the isle decide that this would be good for us too?  
 Because the rich are running the show and taxes on the wealthy should be less 
than taxes on the poor.   And that they can keep shoving propaganda down our 
throats that make us feel like that is the way it should be.   OMG if you 
aren't one of the 1% you are just getting screwed in so many ways.   If you 
aren't sitting on a mountain of PPE on your yacht in the warmer waters of the 
world getting richer from your stock investments you are just bending over 
wanting more.  The last tax changes had so many screw-you-later clauses in it 
for those making less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  Yeah there were a 
couple of things to make it so that you didn't notice your pain for a year or 
two, but it's all there hidden in a 5" stack of FU...

  As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE of the 
states election boards is screaming that they are doing to the best it's ever 
been done. Propping up people who say they cheated and then recant doesn't 
look good to anyone.   Chasing down military families that are voting the way 
they have been told to for 50 years looks worse.  Saying that the democrats 
cheated on the Presidential election but couldn't on the Senate, yeah that 
sounds like a good plan..

  Oh btw what you wrote as "
  Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT 
the Trump side ...
  "
  Says that the tRump side doesn't know what communism looks like before it 
shows up.  Which I agree with.  tRump supporters seem to be missing all the 
clues of a leadership running around with their hair on fire...

  Robert <-   Because Lent seems to be seriously broken today...

  On 11/13/20 9:17 AM, justsumname wrote:

Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is NOT 
'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite. 
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 'undermining' the 
country.   Just the opposite.

Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know what 
'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT the Trump side ...

Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept the 
election after all states were certified..

If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it.   Everyone should 
desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way.   Especially nowadays.

--

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 PM Steve Jones  
wrote:

  Morons can say what they will, because that's what they do, like trained 
monkeys. "Orange man bad", good little trainee. 
  I can tell you this, they gave my dad his first dose of remdesivere 
tonite, you can rest assured, podunk Illinois wouldnt be giving podunk 78 year 
old man a medication like that as a first l

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..



To me, socialism is the government taking all or part of the money, 
not the property, and then giving everyone back what they need.


Otto Von Bismark is basically the father of modern, organized public 
welfare systems.  He was also a firm supporter of the Imperial 
government of Germany and staunchly opposed to socialism.  He observed 
that most people in the socialist movement didn't actually care about 
the classism and redistribution of wealth; they just wanted to know that 
when they're too old or too sick to work that they'll still be ok.  So 
he realized he could neuter the socialist movement if he just gave 
people the social safety net.  And so he did.


The point being that you can provide social services without being 
socialist, and in fact it can be used a tool to keep socialists from 
getting too powerful.  And who knows, maybe someday you'll be too old or 
too sick to work too.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..


  
  
There is (currently) a segment of the population that wants
  things to be clear cut. Up-down, left-right, north-south,
  male-female.
I think (I'm spitballing here, so don't get bent out of shape)
  that that segment gets their knickers in a twist when something
  (anything) doesn't fall into clean lines one way or the other. As
  I've gotten older, I have learned that almost no topic falls into
  the either-or category. 

The whole LGBTQ (can we pick one letter please? We will run out
  of alphabet.) is a great example. The fact is that people have
  never been just two sexes. There are, in fact, a whole range of
  expressions of sex that are too numerous to count. Some people can
  qualify as both, for example.
At any rate, when people start shouting, my inclination is to
  cross over to the other side of the street.


bp

On 11/13/2020 9:47 AM, Robert wrote:


  
  Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in
regards to the US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is
just getting to me.   Growing up in the 50's and 60's we knew
what communism is/was and the US has never ever _ever_ been
close to supporting communism.   We have been closer to having
islamic fundamentalism than communism.   Radicals exist on BOTH
sides of the divide.   Anyone out and the edges of the bell
curve is a "Radical".   And there are plenty on both sides to go
around.   One side tends to have more guns than the other.  
Socialism is the idea that society pulls together when it's good
for everyone, and we have plenty of that.   Fire departments,
water departments, Social Security where the companies have to
contribute 1/2 of the payment. (not applicable to self-employed
).   Medicare, Medicaid, these are all examples of a society
that cares for the less fortunate and decides that we care about
our fellow individuals.  When, basically, the whole rest of the
world says that these are good things and that they should do
even more, why don't we and both sides of the isle decide that
this would be good for us too?   Because the rich are running
the show and taxes on the wealthy should be less than taxes on
the poor.   And that they can keep shoving propaganda down our
throats that make us feel like that is the way it should be.  
OMG if you aren't one of the 1% you are just getting screwed in
so many ways.   If you aren't sitting on a mountain of PPE on
your yacht in the warmer waters of the world getting richer from
your stock investments you are just bending over wanting more. 
The last tax changes had so many screw-you-later clauses in it
for those making less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  Yeah
there were a couple of things to make it so that you didn't
notice your pain for a year or two, but it's all there hidden in
a 5" stack of FU...

As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE
of the states election boards is screaming that they are doing
to the best it's ever been done. Propping up people who say
they cheated and then recant doesn't look good to anyone.  
Chasing down military families that are voting the way they have
been told to for 50 years looks worse.  Saying that the
democrats cheated on the Presidential election but couldn't on
the Senate, yeah that sounds like a good plan..

Oh btw what you wrote as "
  Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully
shows up?   NOT the Trump side ...
"
Says that the tRump side doesn't know what communism looks like
before it shows up.  Which I agree with.  tRump supporters seem
to be missing all the clues of a leadership running around with
their hair on fire...

Robert <-   Because Lent seems to be seriously broken
today...



  
  On 11/13/20 9:17 AM, justsumname
wrote:
  
  

Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed
  in the election is NOT 'undermining' the country.   Just the
  opposite.
  Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT
'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
  
  Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone
here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows
up?   NOT the Trump side ...
  
  
  
  Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he
would accept the election after all states were
certified..
  
  
  If Biden wins -- legal

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

2020-11-13 Thread Robert


Adam, As usual.. nailed it.

On 11/13/20 10:08 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:


Part of the problem with discussing socialism is inconsistent 
definitions.  There are people saying they are "socialist" who think 
that just means the government providing public welfare services.  The 
original definition is government controlling the economy.


Welfare is only socialist in the same way that any other government 
spending is "socialist" in that some money is taken out of one sector 
the economy (tax) and redirected to another one (spend).  If that's 
socialism then all governments have always been socialist ever since 
the dawn of time.  And if having a formal system in place to help 
people is socialist then the Mongol Horde was socialist and so were 
Caribbean pirates and Powhatan Indians.  Oh and Otto Von Bismark too.  
(Hint: none of those are socialist)


There's also commonly assumed to be an equivalency between socialism 
and communism.  Communism is marked by rigid authoritarianism, 
statism, and nationalism.  They figure their socialist dreams will not 
be realized without rigidly applied force.  All communists are 
socialist, but not all socialists are communist.


Here are some simple guidelines:

If they're seizing control of private companies and taking direct 
control of them, then they're socialist.


If they're doing the above while also sending dissenters to be 
re-educated in the gulag then they're communist.


If they're not doing the above and you're calling them Communist then 
you are incorrect.


-Adam


On 11/13/2020 12:47 PM, Robert wrote:
Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in regards 
to the US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is just getting to 
me.   Growing up in the 50's and 60's we knew what communism is/was 
and the US has never ever _ever_ been close to supporting 
communism.   We have been closer to having islamic fundamentalism 
than communism.   Radicals exist on BOTH sides of the divide.   
Anyone out and the edges of the bell curve is a "Radical".   And 
there are plenty on both sides to go around.   One side tends to have 
more guns than the other.   Socialism is the idea that society pulls 
together when it's good for everyone, and we have plenty of that. 
Fire departments, water departments, Social Security where the 
companies have to contribute 1/2 of the payment. (not applicable to 
self-employed ).   Medicare, Medicaid, these are all examples of a 
society that cares for the less fortunate and decides that we care 
about our fellow individuals.  When, basically, the whole rest of the 
world says that these are good things and that they should do even 
more, why don't we and both sides of the isle decide that this would 
be good for us too?   Because the rich are running the show and taxes 
on the wealthy should be less than taxes on the poor.   And that they 
can keep shoving propaganda down our throats that make us feel like 
that is the way it should be.   OMG if you aren't one of the 1% you 
are just getting screwed in so many ways. If you aren't sitting on a 
mountain of PPE on your yacht in the warmer waters of the world 
getting richer from your stock investments you are just bending over 
wanting more.  The last tax changes had so many screw-you-later 
clauses in it for those making less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  
Yeah there were a couple of things to make it so that you didn't 
notice your pain for a year or two, but it's all there hidden in a 5" 
stack of FU...


As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE of 
the states election boards is screaming that they are doing to the 
best it's ever been done. Propping up people who say they cheated 
and then recant doesn't look good to anyone.   Chasing down military 
families that are voting the way they have been told to for 50 years 
looks worse.  Saying that the democrats cheated on the Presidential 
election but couldn't on the Senate, yeah that sounds like a good plan..


Oh btw what you wrote as "
Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows 
up?   NOT the Trump side ...

"
Says that the tRump side doesn't know what communism looks like 
before it shows up.  Which I agree with.  tRump supporters seem to be 
missing all the clues of a leadership running around with their hair 
on fire...


Robert <-   Because Lent seems to be seriously broken today...



On 11/13/20 9:17 AM, justsumname wrote:
Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is 
NOT 'undermining' the country.  Just the opposite.
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 
'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know 
what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT the 
Trump side ...


Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept 
the election after all states were certified..


If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

I equate government owing everything with communism.  All property, all 
businesses.  Everything.  
I don’t care enough to read Marx to learn the true meaning.  

To me, socialism is the government taking all or part of the money, not the 
property, and then giving everyone back what they need.  

We have and have had weird things in the country.  
I imagine most of you don’t recall price controls by Nixon...  Freeze on 
all wages and prices.  

Our 5th amendment allows the guvmnt to take your private property, but there 
must be due process and equity.  

Taking a bunch of buildings in a rundown part of town, then selling them all to 
a developer is a glorious mix of communism, fascism, socialism, capitalism an 
cronyism with some RICO thrown in...We don’t stick to any single “ism” 
here...



From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 11:08 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

Part of the problem with discussing socialism is inconsistent definitions.  
There are people saying they are "socialist" who think that just means the 
government providing public welfare services.  The original definition is 
government controlling the economy.  


Welfare is only socialist in the same way that any other government spending is 
"socialist" in that some money is taken out of one sector the economy (tax) and 
redirected to another one (spend).  If that's socialism then all governments 
have always been socialist ever since the dawn of time.  And if having a formal 
system in place to help people is socialist then the Mongol Horde was socialist 
and so were Caribbean pirates and Powhatan Indians.  Oh and Otto Von Bismark 
too.  (Hint: none of those are socialist)


There's also commonly assumed to be an equivalency between socialism and 
communism.  Communism is marked by rigid authoritarianism, statism, and 
nationalism.  They figure their socialist dreams will not be realized without 
rigidly applied force.  All communists are socialist, but not all socialists 
are communist.


Here are some simple guidelines:

If they're seizing control of private companies and taking direct control of 
them, then they're socialist.  


If they're doing the above while also sending dissenters to be re-educated in 
the gulag then they're communist.  


If they're not doing the above and you're calling them Communist then you are 
incorrect.

-Adam




On 11/13/2020 12:47 PM, Robert wrote:

  Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in regards to the 
US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is just getting to me.   Growing up 
in the 50's and 60's we knew what communism is/was and the US has never ever 
_ever_ been close to supporting communism.   We have been closer to having 
islamic fundamentalism than communism.   Radicals exist on BOTH sides of the 
divide.   Anyone out and the edges of the bell curve is a "Radical".   And 
there are plenty on both sides to go around.   One side tends to have more guns 
than the other.   Socialism is the idea that society pulls together when it's 
good for everyone, and we have plenty of that.   Fire departments, water 
departments, Social Security where the companies have to contribute 1/2 of the 
payment. (not applicable to self-employed ).   Medicare, Medicaid, these are 
all examples of a society that cares for the less fortunate and decides that we 
care about our fellow individuals.  When, basically, the whole rest of the 
world says that these are good things and that they should do even more, why 
don't we and both sides of the isle decide that this would be good for us too?  
 Because the rich are running the show and taxes on the wealthy should be less 
than taxes on the poor.   And that they can keep shoving propaganda down our 
throats that make us feel like that is the way it should be.   OMG if you 
aren't one of the 1% you are just getting screwed in so many ways.   If you 
aren't sitting on a mountain of PPE on your yacht in the warmer waters of the 
world getting richer from your stock investments you are just bending over 
wanting more.  The last tax changes had so many screw-you-later clauses in it 
for those making less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  Yeah there were a 
couple of things to make it so that you didn't notice your pain for a year or 
two, but it's all there hidden in a 5" stack of FU...

  As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE of the 
states election boards is screaming that they are doing to the best it's ever 
been done. Propping up people who say they cheated and then recant doesn't 
look good to anyone.   Chasing down military families that are voting the way 
they have been told to for 50 years looks worse.  Saying that the democrats 
cheated on the Presidential election but couldn't on the Senate, yeah that 
sounds like a good plan..

  Oh btw what you wrote as "
  Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT 
the

Re: [AFMUG] CBRS Google CPI Certificate via Coursera

I did the Google training on Coursera and that exam was also proctored 
by ProctorU.



On 11/13/2020 12:54 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


I can’t respond directly to your question. But note that you can get 
your certification from a different company that you use as your SAS.  
And if you’re having problems with Google/Coursera, keep in mind 
Google will be your TPA going forward, so there may be ongoing problems.


FWIW, I took Commscope’s online training and exam which was proctored 
by ProctorU.  The training was competently done and the whole process 
didn’t involve a huge investment of time.  We actually use Federated 
as our SAS, mostly because they were the farthest along working with 
Cambium, I don’t think Commscope was even available at the time.  But 
I have no problem recommending Commscope for CPI training and 
certification.


If they refunded your money, you might want to start over with a 
different TPA.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Matt Corcoran
*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 11:34 AM
*To:* AF@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] CBRS Google CPI Certificate via Coursera

According to Coursera, Google's CBRS CPI Certificate (required for 
CBRS operation) remains _unavailable_ since at least early October.




Has anyone successfully taken the Google CPI Certificate exam in the 
last month?



I had completed the training and sat down during my scheduled time 
with ProctorU but the exam would not load properly and I was told 
there is a known issue/technical problem.    After 12 email runarounds 
asking if the issue was fixed, Coursera refunded the coarse.       
Google said the course in only available via Coursera and they have 
been "looking into this" for the last two weeks.


My gut feeling is that Coursera just doesn't have anyone available or 
competent to respond.   Maybe it actually works now,  but I sure hate 
to waste another day only to find out the exam is still broken.


Just curious if anyone else has experienced this?

Matt

Web Developer and Network/RF Engineer



** (Coursera Learner Support)

#  ###

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for reaching out to us!

I am deeply sorry to let you know that this issue hasn't been fixed 
and we truly apologize for the hassle you have been experiencing with 
the Quiz of the Course Become a CBRS Certified Professional Installer 
by Google 
 and my 
sincere apologies for the delay that our Engineering team is having on 
fixing the issue as we understand that this is affecting you at your work.


I’ve refunded the one-time payment you made towards this Course. You 
will see your funds returned to your original form of payment in 3-5 
business days, depending on the processing speed of your bank.



Once again, my sincere apologies for this!

If you have any other questions or need further assistance, please 
feel free to let me know.


Happy learning,
Coursera Learner Services


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

Part of the problem with discussing socialism is inconsistent 
definitions.  There are people saying they are "socialist" who think 
that just means the government providing public welfare services.  The 
original definition is government controlling the economy.


Welfare is only socialist in the same way that any other government 
spending is "socialist" in that some money is taken out of one sector 
the economy (tax) and redirected to another one (spend).  If that's 
socialism then all governments have always been socialist ever since the 
dawn of time.  And if having a formal system in place to help people is 
socialist then the Mongol Horde was socialist and so were Caribbean 
pirates and Powhatan Indians.  Oh and Otto Von Bismark too.  (Hint: none 
of those are socialist)


There's also commonly assumed to be an equivalency between socialism and 
communism.  Communism is marked by rigid authoritarianism, statism, and 
nationalism.  They figure their socialist dreams will not be realized 
without rigidly applied force.  All communists are socialist, but not 
all socialists are communist.


Here are some simple guidelines:

If they're seizing control of private companies and taking direct 
control of them, then they're socialist.


If they're doing the above while also sending dissenters to be 
re-educated in the gulag then they're communist.


If they're not doing the above and you're calling them Communist then 
you are incorrect.


-Adam


On 11/13/2020 12:47 PM, Robert wrote:
Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in regards 
to the US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is just getting to 
me.   Growing up in the 50's and 60's we knew what communism is/was 
and the US has never ever _ever_ been close to supporting communism.   
We have been closer to having islamic fundamentalism than communism.   
Radicals exist on BOTH sides of the divide.   Anyone out and the edges 
of the bell curve is a "Radical".   And there are plenty on both sides 
to go around.   One side tends to have more guns than the other. 
Socialism is the idea that society pulls together when it's good for 
everyone, and we have plenty of that.   Fire departments, water 
departments, Social Security where the companies have to contribute 
1/2 of the payment. (not applicable to self-employed ).   Medicare, 
Medicaid, these are all examples of a society that cares for the less 
fortunate and decides that we care about our fellow individuals.  
When, basically, the whole rest of the world says that these are good 
things and that they should do even more, why don't we and both sides 
of the isle decide that this would be good for us too?   Because the 
rich are running the show and taxes on the wealthy should be less than 
taxes on the poor.   And that they can keep shoving propaganda down 
our throats that make us feel like that is the way it should be. OMG 
if you aren't one of the 1% you are just getting screwed in so many 
ways.   If you aren't sitting on a mountain of PPE on your yacht in 
the warmer waters of the world getting richer from your stock 
investments you are just bending over wanting more. The last tax 
changes had so many screw-you-later clauses in it for those making 
less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  Yeah there were a couple of 
things to make it so that you didn't notice your pain for a year or 
two, but it's all there hidden in a 5" stack of FU...


As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE of 
the states election boards is screaming that they are doing to the 
best it's ever been done. Propping up people who say they cheated 
and then recant doesn't look good to anyone. Chasing down military 
families that are voting the way they have been told to for 50 years 
looks worse.  Saying that the democrats cheated on the Presidential 
election but couldn't on the Senate, yeah that sounds like a good plan..


Oh btw what you wrote as "
Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows 
up?   NOT the Trump side ...

"
Says that the tRump side doesn't know what communism looks like before 
it shows up.  Which I agree with.  tRump supporters seem to be missing 
all the clues of a leadership running around with their hair on fire...


Robert <-   Because Lent seems to be seriously broken today...



On 11/13/20 9:17 AM, justsumname wrote:
Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is 
NOT 'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 
'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know what 
'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT the Trump side ...


Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept 
the election after all states were certified..


If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it.  Everyone 
should desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way.

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

2020-11-13 Thread Mark - Myakka Technologies

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

For four years all we heard on the nightly news was Russia influence was the only way Trump won. It was miserable. Presidents were disliked in the past and the other side would always go after them. Clinton, Bush, Obama were all attacked and demonized in some form or another by the other side. What changed in 2016 is that the losing side decided it wasn't enough to attack the man, they had to attack the process. I knew this wasn't going to turn out well when they started it. It was never ending for 4 years, Trump rigged the election via the Russians. He was an illegitimate president. Even with Bush vs Gore, when Bush won there was some grumbling. But in the end everything settled down and the process was accepted and we went on with the normal attacks against the man.

The only way this election would have went well, would have been a landslide for either man. We didn't get that. So now we are in a place where 70+ million people in this country are being asked to accept a very close race. Isn't going to happen. Biden will be our next president. The country will still stay very divided. Hopefully the republicans will hold the majority in the senate give us a stop gap. At the end of the day a government in gridlock can do the least amount of damage.

I can just image the damage that would have been done if the roles were reversed. If Trump held the slim margin and was going to be in for a second term. Do you really think Biden and his camp won't be doing the same thing Trump is doing? Look what they did when Hillary lost. Stacey Abrams in GA still claims she won her election two years ago. The riots would have been off the charts.

--
Best regards,
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

Friday, November 13, 2020, 12:17:20 PM, you wrote:

Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is NOT 'undermining' the country. Just the opposite.
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 'undermining' the country. Just the opposite.
Polar-opposite worlds. I just don't get it. Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up? NOT the Trump side ...

Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept the election after all states were certified..

If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it. Everyone should desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way. Especially nowadays.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 PM Steve Jones wrote:

Morons can say what they will, because that's what they do, like trained monkeys. "Orange man bad", good little trainee.
I can tell you this, they gave my dad his first dose of remdesivere tonite, you can rest assured, podunk Illinois wouldnt be giving podunk 78 year old man a medication like that as a first line med if the scamdemic hadn't been handled like a boss. See pandemic is pandemic, there is no such thing as "handling it right" l anybody who says there is is a part of the above mentioned group of morons.

50 50 if the old man comes home. But my orange "buffoon" opened a door that got his odds up from the original 80 percent coffin rate.

That's what I laugh at "orange man bad" idiots that spout their hypocrisy, bigotry and generally retarded tripe.

Rotflmao, however some more cliches... the change my mind

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:27 PM Chuck Macenski wrote:

If Trump were trying to undermine the United States, what would he be doing differently?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:14 PM Robert wrote:

Having the DOJ chase down military people who vote out of state for years because of normal military transfers ( 3K so far in NV ) which has been the normal state of affairs for over 70 years and characterize that as voter fraud is going a little bit too far in my book. I still am hoping that he is going after that more about raising money than actually thinking he can corrupt the belief in the voting system.

On 11/11/20 7:38 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I don’t agree at all. Trump got elected because more than half the country really really really disliked Hillary.

Really really really disliked Hillary.

I don’t know of anyone that voted for Trump because they liked him. Everyone I know thought he was an ass hat from the get go.

Second, you all have seen, first hand, for 4 years how little a president can actually do to harm a country. Not much. He didn’t start any wars so that is about the most damaging thing he can do. He didn’t act on the virus properly but lots of countries fall into the same category. He embarrassed us on the world stage. That is about it. Congress can affect us. Presidents not so much.

We have always had nationalists here. It is part of the culture. Some call it patriotism. I don’t think it is bad. I am not a globa

Re: [AFMUG] CBRS Google CPI Certificate via Coursera

I can't respond directly to your question.  But note that you can get your
certification from a different company that you use as your SAS.  And if
you're having problems with Google/Coursera, keep in mind Google will be
your TPA going forward, so there may be ongoing problems.

 

FWIW, I took Commscope's online training and exam which was proctored by
ProctorU.  The training was competently done and the whole process didn't
involve a huge investment of time.  We actually use Federated as our SAS,
mostly because they were the farthest along working with Cambium, I don't
think Commscope was even available at the time.  But I have no problem
recommending Commscope for CPI training and certification.

 

If they refunded your money, you might want to start over with a different
TPA.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Corcoran
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 11:34 AM
To: AF@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] CBRS Google CPI Certificate via Coursera

 

According to Coursera, Google's CBRS CPI Certificate (required for CBRS
operation) remains unavailable since at least early October.





Has anyone successfully taken the Google CPI Certificate exam in the last
month?


I had completed the training and sat down during my scheduled time with
ProctorU but the exam would not load properly and I was told there is a
known issue/technical problem.After 12 email runarounds asking if the
issue was fixed, Coursera refunded the coarse.   Google said the course
in only available via Coursera and they have been "looking into this" for
the last two weeks.



 

 

My gut feeling is that Coursera just doesn't have anyone available or
competent to respond.   Maybe it actually works now,  but I sure hate to
waste another day only to find out the exam is still broken.

 

Just curious if anyone else has experienced this?

 

Matt

Web Developer and Network/RF Engineer

 

 

 





 

 

 

 

 



 (Coursera Learner Support) 

#  ### 

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for reaching out to us!

I am deeply sorry to let you know that this issue hasn't been fixed and we
truly apologize for the hassle you have been experiencing with the Quiz of
the Course Become a CBRS Certified Professional Installer by Google
  and my sincere
apologies for the delay that our Engineering team is having on fixing the
issue as we understand that this is affecting you at your work.

I've refunded the one-time payment you made towards this Course. You will
see your funds returned to your original form of payment in 3-5 business
days, depending on the processing speed of your bank.


Once again, my sincere apologies for this!

If you have any other questions or need further assistance, please feel free
to let me know.

Happy learning,
Coursera Learner Services

 

 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

2020-11-13 Thread Robert

Where the frick do people start throwing Communism around in regards to 
the US.   Sorry but this weird paranoid outlook is just getting to me.   
Growing up in the 50's and 60's we knew what communism is/was and the US 
has never ever _ever_ been close to supporting communism.   We have been 
closer to having islamic fundamentalism than communism.   Radicals exist 
on BOTH sides of the divide.   Anyone out and the edges of the bell 
curve is a "Radical".   And there are plenty on both sides to go around. 
One side tends to have more guns than the other.   Socialism is the idea 
that society pulls together when it's good for everyone, and we have 
plenty of that.   Fire departments, water departments, Social Security 
where the companies have to contribute 1/2 of the payment. (not 
applicable to self-employed ).   Medicare, Medicaid, these are all 
examples of a society that cares for the less fortunate and decides that 
we care about our fellow individuals. When, basically, the whole rest of 
the world says that these are good things and that they should do even 
more, why don't we and both sides of the isle decide that this would be 
good for us too?   Because the rich are running the show and taxes on 
the wealthy should be less than taxes on the poor.   And that they can 
keep shoving propaganda down our throats that make us feel like that is 
the way it should be.   OMG if you aren't one of the 1% you are just 
getting screwed in so many ways.   If you aren't sitting on a mountain 
of PPE on your yacht in the warmer waters of the world getting richer 
from your stock investments you are just bending over wanting more.  The 
last tax changes had so many screw-you-later clauses in it for those 
making less than $5MM/year it was laughable.  Yeah there were a couple 
of things to make it so that you didn't notice your pain for a year or 
two, but it's all there hidden in a 5" stack of FU...


As far as State and Federal laws being followed.  EVERY DARN ONE of the 
states election boards is screaming that they are doing to the best it's 
ever been done. Propping up people who say they cheated and then 
recant doesn't look good to anyone.   Chasing down military families 
that are voting the way they have been told to for 50 years looks 
worse.  Saying that the democrats cheated on the Presidential election 
but couldn't on the Senate, yeah that sounds like a good plan..


Oh btw what you wrote as "
Anyone here know what 'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?  
 NOT the Trump side ...

"
Says that the tRump side doesn't know what communism looks like before 
it shows up.  Which I agree with.  tRump supporters seem to be missing 
all the clues of a leadership running around with their hair on fire...


Robert <-   Because Lent seems to be seriously broken today...



On 11/13/20 9:17 AM, justsumname wrote:
Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is 
NOT 'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 'undermining' 
the country.   Just the opposite.
Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know what 
'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?  NOT the Trump side ...


Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept 
the election after all states were certified..


If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it.  Everyone 
should desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way.   Especially 
nowadays.


--


On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Morons can say what they will, because that's what they do, like
trained monkeys. "Orange man bad", good little trainee.
I can tell you this, they gave my dad his first dose of
remdesivere tonite, you can rest assured, podunk Illinois wouldnt
be giving podunk 78 year old man a medication like that as a first
line med if the scamdemic hadn't been handled like a boss. See
pandemic is pandemic, there is no such thing as "handling it
right" l anybody who says there is is a part of the above
mentioned group of morons.

50 50 if the old man comes home. But my orange "buffoon" opened a
door that got his odds up from the original 80 percent coffin rate.

That's what I laugh at "orange man bad" idiots that spout their
hypocrisy, bigotry and generally retarded tripe.

Rotflmao, however some more cliches... the change my mind

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:27 PM Chuck Macenski mailto:ch...@macenski.com>> wrote:

If Trump were trying to undermine the United States, what
would he be doing differently?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:14 PM Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

Having the DOJ chase down military people who vote out of
state for years because of normal military transfers ( 3K
so far in NV ) which has been the normal state of affairs
fo

[AFMUG] CBRS Google CPI Certificate via Coursera

2020-11-13 Thread Matt Corcoran

According to Coursera, Google's CBRS CPI Certificate (required for CBRS 
operation) remains unavailable since at least early October.

Has anyone successfully taken the Google CPI Certificate exam in the last month?

I had completed the training and sat down during my scheduled time with 
ProctorU but the exam would not load properly and I was told there is a known 
issue/technical problem.After 12 email runarounds asking if the issue was 
fixed, Coursera refunded the coarse.   Google said the course in only 
available via Coursera and they have been "looking into this" for the last two 
weeks.


My gut feeling is that Coursera just doesn't have anyone available or competent 
to respond.   Maybe it actually works now,  but I sure hate to waste another 
day only to find out the exam is still broken.

Just curious if anyone else has experienced this?

Matt
Web Developer and Network/RF Engineer









 (Coursera Learner Support)

#  ###

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for reaching out to us!

I am deeply sorry to let you know that this issue hasn't been fixed and we 
truly apologize for the hassle you have been experiencing with the Quiz of the 
Course Become a CBRS Certified Professional Installer by 
Google and my sincere 
apologies for the delay that our Engineering team is having on fixing the issue 
as we understand that this is affecting you at your work.

I’ve refunded the one-time payment you made towards this Course. You will see 
your funds returned to your original form of payment in 3-5 business days, 
depending on the processing speed of your bank.


Once again, my sincere apologies for this!

If you have any other questions or need further assistance, please feel free to 
let me know.

Happy learning,
Coursera Learner Services


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..

2020-11-13 Thread justsumname

Insisting that State and Federal laws be followed in the election is NOT
'undermining' the country.   Just the opposite.
Firing people who are sympathetic to the radicals is NOT 'undermining' the
country.   Just the opposite.
Polar-opposite worlds.   I just don't get it.   Anyone here know what
'communism' looks like before it fully shows up?   NOT the Trump side ...

Ya know... it was BIDEN in the first debate who said he would accept the
election after all states were certified..

If Biden wins -- legally and properly -- then so be it.   Everyone should
desire transparency and legality, 100% of the way.   Especially nowadays.

--

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Morons can say what they will, because that's what they do, like trained
> monkeys. "Orange man bad", good little trainee.
> I can tell you this, they gave my dad his first dose of remdesivere
> tonite, you can rest assured, podunk Illinois wouldnt be giving podunk 78
> year old man a medication like that as a first line med if the scamdemic
> hadn't been handled like a boss. See pandemic is pandemic, there is no such
> thing as "handling it right" l anybody who says there is is a part of the
> above mentioned group of morons.
>
> 50 50 if the old man comes home. But my orange "buffoon" opened a door
> that got his odds up from the original 80 percent coffin rate.
>
> That's what I laugh at "orange man bad" idiots that spout their hypocrisy,
> bigotry and generally retarded tripe.
>
> Rotflmao, however some more cliches... the change my mind
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:27 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>
>> If Trump were trying to undermine the United States, what would he be
>> doing differently?
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:14 PM Robert  wrote:
>>
>>> Having the DOJ chase down military people who vote out of state for
>>> years because of normal military transfers ( 3K so far in NV ) which has
>>> been the normal state of affairs for over 70 years and characterize that as
>>> voter fraud is going a little bit too far in my book.  I still am hoping
>>> that he is going after that more about raising money than actually thinking
>>> he can corrupt the belief in the voting system.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/11/20 7:38 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I don’t agree at all.  Trump got elected because more than half the
>>> country really really really disliked Hillary.
>>>
>>> Really really really disliked Hillary.
>>>
>>> I don’t know of anyone that voted for Trump because they liked him.
>>> Everyone I know thought he was an ass hat from the get go.
>>>
>>> Second, you all have seen, first hand, for 4 years how little a
>>> president can actually do to harm a country.  Not much.  He didn’t start
>>> any wars so that is about the most damaging thing he can do.  He didn’t act
>>> on the virus properly but lots of countries fall into the same category.
>>> He embarrassed us on the world stage.  That is about it.  Congress can
>>> affect us.  Presidents not so much.
>>>
>>> We have always had nationalists here.  It is part of the culture.  Some
>>> call it patriotism. I don’t think it is bad.  I am not a globalist.  I
>>> support our country and our national interests above other nations.  Part
>>> of rooting for the home team.  Being a patriot is a far stretch from
>>> dictatorship.
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:01 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: The Silence is deafening..
>>>
>>> The scariest part is how many actually voted for an inept nationalist
>>> xenophobic clown ...it portends of bad things ahead. Study history and you
>>> will see how this nationalism fervor led to Nazi growth in Europe...
>>> The proof is overwhelming...
>>> Prove me wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:41 PM Steve Jones 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I cant take credit on that one

 Heres some crazy stuff, I'm pretty sure offering up campaign funds for
 anything other than a campaign is illegal.
 I told you guys, this is gonna get hilarious. By the time it's all said
 and done, theyll find 100 percent evidence biden cheated and there will be
 no republicans left not in prison for the RNC to put in the big seat.

 https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-offers-dollar1-million-in-campaign-funds-for-voter-fraud-evidence

 Was reading another article from one of the mainstreams about what
 happens if there is no certification and the congress has to vote in a new
 potus, apparently it's not limited to the two candidates, it's got to do
 with aggregate votes and would potentially leave bernie sanders in a
 position to be president. Its was MSM and they're full of shit all the time
 but it sounded good. Can you imagine that, the dnc fucked this guy over
 twice in a concerted effort, particularly in 2016 when he had a real good
 chance of beating the republican., and then he pulls that feat off. I

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 11/13/20 8:22 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Yes I know, carriers still have them.  But I try to do firmware updates 
and stuff at 3am and it’s amazing how much traffic there still is.  Hard 
to tell how much of it is important vs live streaming TV left on or game 
downloads.  But there’s no time you can do maintenance anymore without 
pissing people off.





I don't even bother with after hours. I do work on Saturdays starting at 
10am (with advance notice for major work). If it's going to affect a 
large or business customer with an SLA, I give them the option of 
telling me when it's a good time for them and I'll just make it that 
time instead. Since there's no such thing as after hours anymore I might 
as well do things when I feel like doing them.


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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread dave


+1 google

On 11/13/20 10:22 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Maintenance windows are a concept from “the before times” (B.C., 
before Covid)


Yes I know, carriers still have them.  But I try to do firmware 
updates and stuff at 3am and it’s amazing how much traffic there still 
is.  Hard to tell how much of it is important vs live streaming TV 
left on or game downloads. But there’s no time you can do maintenance 
anymore without pissing people off.


I’m starting to figure if I’m going to piss people off no matter what, 
why try to do hardware upgrades at tower sites in the dark, might as 
well do it in the middle of the day and keep it as short as possible.  
I’m trying to work around the kids doing remote classes, so I avoid 
M-F 8am-3pm. It’s back to long ago when any time outside “business 
hours” was a maintenance window because residential users were just 
checking email and downloading porn anyway.


And I fear as people adopt streaming bundles that include live TV, we 
will see the norm becomes streaming 24x7 because they left the TV on.  
I already had one customer on our lowest speed tier (5x1) whose 
download usage has gone to 1.1 TB per month since May, turns out 
that’s when they cancelled their DirecTV.  To use that much data on 
such a low speed, you pretty much have to be streaming 24x7.  Turns 
out she has tinnitus and can’t sleep without the TV on, and during the 
day her husband watches movies.  I suggested if she’s not even 
watching the TV, why not stream music, but l think she can only sleep 
if Fox News is on.  Personally, cable news would keep me up at night, 
in fact I don’t watch it for that very reason.  It’s all talking heads 
telling me to be angry and afraid.  How does that help you sleep?  But 
I remember an episode of Becker where he couldn’t sleep because his 
old TV was on the fritz, and he’s too cheap to buy a new one, and goes 
to the TV megastore trying to buy a replacement tube.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Lewis Bergman
*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 9:35 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Something always breaks. I am not sure what carriers you are referring 
to when you say switches shouldn't break. if it has current flowing 
through it, it will break. Even if they are replacing something they 
believe will prevent impending doom, chances are there will be some 
service impact as they do their PM. Which is why everyone has 
maintenance windows.


I am sure it is possible to build a complete network with zero 
points of failure. I am also pretty sure nobody wants to pay for it.


On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:23 AM Seth Mattinen > wrote:


On 11/13/20 7:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.


Then why consider multiple carriers? Just single home to one and be
done. No worrying about the complexities of multiple providers if
nothing ever breaks in a carrier environment.

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Lewis Bergman

325-439-0533 Cell




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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread dave


+1


On 11/13/20 7:38 AM, Dennis Burgess via AF wrote:

I would suggest maybe two 2 gig commits with 10gig ports uncapped.  This will 
allow either provider to go down and with good network design you can use 
multiple routers to prevent a outage of your equipment.  Should be cheaper than 
4 1gig internet connections and better than one 10gig . 😊



Dennis Burgess

Mikrotik : Trainer, Network Associate, Routing Engineer, Wireless Engineer, 
Traffic Control Engineer, Inter-Networking Engineer, Security Engineer, 
Enterprise Wireless Engineer
Hurricane Electric: IPv6 Sage Level
Cambium: ePMP

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 7:38 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer subnet 
mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of non-contiguous 
allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if you have something 
bigger than a /24 then you can do it.

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", or "D" might need to carry all the 
load and you may not know which way it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, and tweak your settings just so, but I 
don't think you can guarantee that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If 
you need 4Gb, then you might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends what you're willing to live with.  There's a saying that 
"slow is better than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid either "slow" or "down" 
conditions.

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me GigE 
optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then it'll be a 
10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a phone call, whereas 
the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap interface cards.


On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Right. Which is not ideal.


On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I
believe load balancing via prepends is an inexact science.  It's like
the guy with the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the 
outcome.

You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just
one of the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant 
feeds.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from
several top tier carriers relatively inexpensively.
Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier.

Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from
4 carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these?
Just AS pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one over 
another?
Or is there a better way?
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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Maintenance windows are a concept from “the before times” (B.C., before Covid)

 

Yes I know, carriers still have them.  But I try to do firmware updates and 
stuff at 3am and it’s amazing how much traffic there still is.  Hard to tell 
how much of it is important vs live streaming TV left on or game downloads.  
But there’s no time you can do maintenance anymore without pissing people off.

 

I’m starting to figure if I’m going to piss people off no matter what, why try 
to do hardware upgrades at tower sites in the dark, might as well do it in the 
middle of the day and keep it as short as possible.  I’m trying to work around 
the kids doing remote classes, so I avoid M-F 8am-3pm.  It’s back to long ago 
when any time outside “business hours” was a maintenance window because 
residential users were just checking email and downloading porn anyway.

 

And I fear as people adopt streaming bundles that include live TV, we will see 
the norm becomes streaming 24x7 because they left the TV on.  I already had one 
customer on our lowest speed tier (5x1) whose download usage has gone to 1.1 TB 
per month since May, turns out that’s when they cancelled their DirecTV.  To 
use that much data on such a low speed, you pretty much have to be streaming 
24x7.  Turns out she has tinnitus and can’t sleep without the TV on, and during 
the day her husband watches movies.  I suggested if she’s not even watching the 
TV, why not stream music, but l think she can only sleep if Fox News is on.  
Personally, cable news would keep me up at night, in fact I don’t watch it for 
that very reason.  It’s all talking heads telling me to be angry and afraid.  
How does that help you sleep?  But I remember an episode of Becker where he 
couldn’t sleep because his old TV was on the fritz, and he’s too cheap to buy a 
new one, and goes to the TV megastore trying to buy a replacement tube.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 9:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

 

Something always breaks. I am not sure what carriers you are referring to when 
you say switches shouldn't break. if it has current flowing through it, it will 
break. Even if they are replacing something they believe will prevent impending 
doom, chances are there will be some service impact as they do their PM. Which 
is why everyone has maintenance windows.

 

I am sure it is possible to build a complete network with zero points of 
failure. I am also pretty sure nobody wants to pay for it.

 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:23 AM Seth Mattinen mailto:se...@rollernet.us> > wrote:

On 11/13/20 7:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.


Then why consider multiple carriers? Just single home to one and be 
done. No worrying about the complexities of multiple providers if 
nothing ever breaks in a carrier environment.

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AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




 

-- 

Lewis Bergman

325-439-0533 Cell

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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Josh Baird

I bet your switches haven't ever crashed either.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:10 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.
>
> On Nov 13, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> 
> You're misrepresenting the DE-CIX situation.
>
> One switch crashed, which happens from time to time for everyone.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Friday, November 13, 2020 9:03:13 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>
> Joining an IX is more complicated than just buying Internet service and
> recently we had the DECIX in New York City completely crash which took down
> a whole bunch of traffic.
>
> I would rather have multiple carriers than be relying on a single IX that
> I have no control over
>
> > On Nov 13, 2020, at 9:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> >
> > Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in
> anyway undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger pipes
> rather than IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, about the same
> cost. In any case you are going to need the big pipes, in case the IX goes
> tits up.
> >
> > The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> >
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020
> > From: "Mike Hammett" 
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >
> > Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting
> to an IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you
> need to be connecting to multiple IXes.
> >
> >
> > I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections
> to Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
> > [
> https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL
> 
> ]
> > Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
> > [
> https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix
> ]
> > The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
> > [
> https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg
> ]
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > From: "Steven Kenney" 
> > To: "af" 
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >
> >
> > What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to
> look for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to
> several 10G interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.
> Carriers like Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on
> a daily basis because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster
> than they planned.  If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting
> creative and getting into fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going
> faster and faster.  Don't worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural
> areas will be not enough in 5 years.
> >
> >
> >
> > [https://www.wavedirect.net/]
> > [https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] [
> https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/]  [
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/]  [
> https://twitter.com/wavedirect1]  [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]
>  STEVEN KENNEY
> > DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N |
> Leamington ON
> > E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
> > W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]
> >
> > 
> >
> > From: "Adam Moffett" 
> > To: "af" 
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >
> > I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the
> Internet.
> >
> > You can advertise the supernet out of all carr

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Lewis Bergman

Something always breaks. I am not sure what carriers you are referring to
when you say switches shouldn't break. if it has current flowing through
it, it will break. Even if they are replacing something they believe will
prevent impending doom, chances are there will be some service impact as
they do their PM. Which is why everyone has maintenance windows.

I am sure it is possible to build a complete network with zero points of
failure. I am also pretty sure nobody wants to pay for it.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:23 AM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> On 11/13/20 7:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.
>
>
> Then why consider multiple carriers? Just single home to one and be
> done. No worrying about the complexities of multiple providers if
> nothing ever breaks in a carrier environment.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>

-- 
Lewis Bergman
325-439-0533 Cell
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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 11/13/20 7:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.



Then why consider multiple carriers? Just single home to one and be 
done. No worrying about the complexities of multiple providers if 
nothing ever breaks in a carrier environment.


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

A modern building, up to code, should never burn down completely.  Shit 
happens. That's why you're considering multiple connections.


Massive LA Building Fire Closes Parts of 2 Freeways - ABC7 San Francisco

On 11/13/2020 10:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.


On Nov 13, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:


You're misrepresenting the DE-CIX situation.

One switch crashed, which happens from time to time for everyone.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Friday, November 13, 2020 9:03:13 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Joining an IX is more complicated than just buying Internet service 
and recently we had the DECIX in New York City completely crash which 
took down a whole bunch of traffic.


I would rather have multiple carriers than be relying on a single IX 
that I have no control over


> On Nov 13, 2020, at 9:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
>
> Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in 
anyway undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger 
pipes rather than IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, 
about the same cost. In any case you are going to need the big pipes, 
in case the IX goes tits up.

>
> The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary.
>
> Jared
>
>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>
> Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be 
connecting to an IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're 
exceeding 10G, you need to be connecting to multiple IXes.

>
>
> I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G 
connections to Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is 
weaksauce.

>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
> 
[https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]

> Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
> 
[https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]

> The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
> 
[https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]

>
>
>
> 
>
> From: "Steven Kenney" 
> To: "af" 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>
>
> What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes 
time to look for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went 
from 1G to several 10G interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 
100G interfaces.  Carriers like Cogeco are telling me that we are the 
topic of discussion on a daily basis because we are pushing them to 
upgrade their network faster than they planned.  If they can't keep 
up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into fiber 
yourselves.  It will only grow and is going faster and faster.  Don't 
worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not 
enough in 5 years.

>
>
>
> [https://www.wavedirect.net/]
> [https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
[https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/] 
 [https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/] 
 [https://twitter.com/wavedirect1] 
 [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]  STEVEN KENNEY
> DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | 
Leamington ON

> E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
> W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]
>
> 
>
> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> To: "af" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>
> I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the 
Internet.

>
> You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
> individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
> subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
> non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if
> you have som

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Matt Hoppes

Switches should not be crashing in a carrier environment.

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> 
> You're misrepresenting the DE-CIX situation.
> 
> One switch crashed, which happens from time to time for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 9:03:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> 
> Joining an IX is more complicated than just buying Internet service and 
> recently we had the DECIX in New York City completely crash which took down a 
> whole bunch of traffic.
> 
> I would rather have multiple carriers than be relying on a single IX that I 
> have no control over
> 
> > On Nov 13, 2020, at 9:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> > 
> > Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in anyway 
> > undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger pipes rather than 
> > IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, about the same cost. In any 
> > case you are going to need the big pipes, in case the IX goes tits up.
> > 
> > The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary.
> > 
> > Jared 
> >  
> > 
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> > From: "Mike Hammett" 
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> > 
> > Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting to 
> > an IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you 
> > need to be connecting to multiple IXes.
> >  
> >  
> > I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections to 
> > Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce.
> >  
> > 
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
> > [https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
> > Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
> > [https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
> > The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
> > [https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > From: "Steven Kenney" 
> > To: "af" 
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >  
> > 
> > What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to 
> > look for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to 
> > several 10G interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.  
> > Carriers like Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on 
> > a daily basis because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster 
> > than they planned.  If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting 
> > creative and getting into fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going 
> > faster and faster.  Don't worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural 
> > areas will be not enough in 5 years.  
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > [https://www.wavedirect.net/]
> > [https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
> > [https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/]  
> > [https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/]  
> > [https://twitter.com/wavedirect1]  
> > [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]  STEVEN KENNEY
> > DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington 
> > ON
> > E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
> > W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > From: "Adam Moffett" 
> > To: "af" 
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >  
> > I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.
> > 
> > You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
> > individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
> > subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
> > non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if
> > you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.
> > 
> > I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C",
> > or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way
> > it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage,
> > and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee
> > that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your
> > testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you
> > might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meani

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

You're misrepresenting the DE-CIX situation. 


One switch crashed, which happens from time to time for everyone. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 9:03:13 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

Joining an IX is more complicated than just buying Internet service and 
recently we had the DECIX in New York City completely crash which took down a 
whole bunch of traffic. 

I would rather have multiple carriers than be relying on a single IX that I 
have no control over 

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 9:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote: 
> 
> Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in anyway 
> undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger pipes rather than 
> IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, about the same cost. In any 
> case you are going to need the big pipes, in case the IX goes tits up. 
> 
> The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary. 
> 
> Jared 
> 
> 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> From: "Mike Hammett"  
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
> 
> Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting to 
> an IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you need 
> to be connecting to multiple IXes. 
> 
> 
> I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections to 
> Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce. 
> 
> 
> - 
> Mike Hammett 
> Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/] 
> [https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
>  
> Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/] 
> [https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
>  
> The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/] 
> [https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> From: "Steven Kenney"  
> To: "af"  
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
> 
> 
> What he said prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can. Also yes time to look 
> for some 10Gbps interfaces. No way around it! I went from 1G to several 10G 
> interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces. Carriers like 
> Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
> because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they 
> planned. If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and 
> getting into fiber yourselves. It will only grow and is going faster and 
> faster. Don't worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be 
> not enough in 5 years. 
> 
> 
> 
> [https://www.wavedirect.net/] 
> [https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
> [https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/] 
> [https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/] 
> [https://twitter.com/wavedirect1] [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect] 
> STEVEN KENNEY 
> DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington 
> ON 
> E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283 
> W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net] 
> 
>  
> 
> From: "Adam Moffett"  
> To: "af"  
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
> 
> I like the curling analogy. No perfect load balancing across the Internet. 
> 
> You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
> individual /24's out of the preferred carrier. BGP will use the longer 
> subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet. If you have a bunch of 
> non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if 
> you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it. 
> 
> I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", 
> or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way 
> it will come in. You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, 
> and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee 
> that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your 
> testing and the eventual unplanned outage. If you need 4Gb, then you 
> might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy. Depends 
> what you're willing to live with. There's a saying that "slow is better 
> than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid 
> either "slow" or "down" conditions. 
> 
> I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Matt Hoppes

Joining an IX is more complicated than just buying Internet service and 
recently we had the DECIX in New York City completely crash which took down a 
whole bunch of traffic.

I would rather have multiple carriers than be relying on a single IX that I 
have no control over

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 9:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> 
> Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in anyway 
> undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger pipes rather than 
> IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, about the same cost. In any 
> case you are going to need the big pipes, in case the IX goes tits up.
> 
> The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary.
> 
> Jared 
>  
> 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> 
> Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting to 
> an IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you need 
> to be connecting to multiple IXes.
>  
>  
> I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections to 
> Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce.
>  
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
> [https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
> Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
> [https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
> The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
> [https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> From: "Steven Kenney" 
> To: "af" 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>  
> 
> What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to look 
> for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to several 10G 
> interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.  Carriers like 
> Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
> because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they 
> planned.  If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and 
> getting into fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going faster and 
> faster.  Don't worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be 
> not enough in 5 years.  
>  
> 
>  
> [https://www.wavedirect.net/]
> [https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
> [https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/]  
> [https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/]  
> [https://twitter.com/wavedirect1]  [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]  
> STEVEN KENNEY
> DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON
> E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
> W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]
>  
> 
> 
> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> To: "af" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>  
> I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.
> 
> You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
> individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
> subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
> non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if
> you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.
> 
> I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C",
> or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way
> it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage,
> and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee
> that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your
> testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you
> might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends
> what you're willing to live with.  There's a saying that "slow is better
> than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid
> either "slow" or "down" conditions.
> 
> I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me
> GigE optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then
> it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a
> phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap
> interface cards.
> 
> 
>> On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> Right. Which is not ideal.
>> 
 On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are smarter people than me here on the to

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread fiberrun

Not to disagree with the recommendation to join an IX or two or in anyway 
undermine the point, but I can see why some go for larger pipes rather than 
IXes. It's simpler and may be, if not cheaper, about the same cost. In any case 
you are going to need the big pipes, in case the IX goes tits up.

The benefits of joining an IX are largely non-monetary.

Jared 

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting to an 
IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you need to be 
connecting to multiple IXes.

I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections to 
Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]

From: "Steven Kenney" 
To: "af" 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to look 
for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.  Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned.  
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going faster and faster.  Don't 
worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 
years.  

[https://www.wavedirect.net/]
[https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
[https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/]  
[https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/]  
[https://twitter.com/wavedirect1]  [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]  
STEVEN KENNEY
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON
E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]

From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: "af" 
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C",
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way
it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage,
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your
testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends
what you're willing to live with.  There's a saying that "slow is better
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid
either "slow" or "down" conditions.

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me
GigE optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap
interface cards.

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Right. Which is not ideal.
>
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>>
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science.  It's like the guy with
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome.
>>
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>>
>> I have a situation where

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Lewis Bergman

I remember trying to affect BGP routing and never being able to. Carriers
either don't support it or change their level of support. Never worked out.
Seems the best was just to buy what you could afford, the more the merrier,
then whittle it down to your top two % traffic carriers when the contract
comes up.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 7:40 AM Dennis Burgess via AF 
wrote:

> I would suggest maybe two 2 gig commits with 10gig ports uncapped.  This
> will allow either provider to go down and with good network design you can
> use multiple routers to prevent a outage of your equipment.  Should be
> cheaper than 4 1gig internet connections and better than one 10gig . 😊
>
>
>
> Dennis Burgess
>
> Mikrotik : Trainer, Network Associate, Routing Engineer, Wireless
> Engineer, Traffic Control Engineer, Inter-Networking Engineer, Security
> Engineer, Enterprise Wireless Engineer
> Hurricane Electric: IPv6 Sage Level
> Cambium: ePMP
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 7:38 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>
> I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.
>
> You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
> individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
> subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
> non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if you
> have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.
>
> I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C",
> or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way it
> will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, and
> tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee that
> topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your testing
> and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you might just
> need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends what you're
> willing to live with.  There's a saying that "slow is better than down",
> but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid either "slow"
> or "down" conditions.
>
> I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me
> GigE optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then it'll
> be a 10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a phone call,
> whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap interface cards.
>
>
> On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > Right. Which is not ideal.
> >
> >> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >>
> >> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I
> >> believe load balancing via prepends is an inexact science.  It's like
> >> the guy with the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate
> the outcome.
> >>
> >> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just
> >> one of the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of
> redundant feeds.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM
> >> To: af@af.afmug.com
> >> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
> >>
> >> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from
> >> several top tier carriers relatively inexpensively.
> >> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier.
> >>
> >> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from
> >> 4 carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these?
> >> Just AS pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one
> over another?
> >> Or is there a better way?
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Lewis Bergman
325-439-0533 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread fiberrun

Announcing more specifics than the supernet grows the routing table. Large 
routing table bad.

Jared

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Maybe you need to elaborate.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 8:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Please, please only use prefix length as a traffic engineering effort as the 
very, very last measure. Those that do that make the Internet worse for 
everyone.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
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From: "Steven Kenney" mailto:st...@wavedirect.org]>
To: "af" mailto:af@af.afmug.com]>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to look 
for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.  Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned.  
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going faster and faster.  Don't 
worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 
years.  

[https://www.wavedirect.net/]

[https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed] 
[https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/]  
[https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/]  
[https://twitter.com/wavedirect1]  [https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect]  
STEVEN KENNEY
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON
E: st...@wavedirect.org[mailto:st...@wavedirect.org] | P: 519-737-9283
W: www.wavedirect.net[http://www.wavedirect.net]

From: "Adam Moffett" mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com]>
To: "af" mailto:af@af.afmug.com]>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C",
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way
it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage,
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your
testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends
what you're willing to live with.  There's a saying that "slow is better
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid
either "slow" or "down" conditions.

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me
GigE optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap
interface cards.

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Right. Which is not ideal.
>
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof 
>> mailto:af...@kwisp.com]> wrote:
>>
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science.  It's like the guy with
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome.
>>
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]> On Behalf 
>> Of Matt Hoppes
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>>
>> I have a situation where I can buy several 1

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread fiberrun

As other have written, using communities is the way to go. Here's a list of 
upstream communities, you can often find more by searching for $UPSTREAM BGP 
community:
https://onestep.net/communities/

Stay away from Hurricane Electric, they have no communities at all. Better to 
peer directly with them anyway.

> Matt Hoppes wrote:
> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from several top 
> tier carriers relatively inexpensively.
  Are you sure you actually want to do that?

  Four upstream carriers are hard to balance, especially if you are trying to 
max them out.

  Before you even get that far, you should determine what your traffic flows 
per ASN are and base your upstream selection based on that.

  Worse case scenario, you contract with multiple upstreams and when putting 
them into production notice that almost no traffic is originated from some.

> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier.
  You don't really want that either.

  What you want is two or more medium pipes. Say two 2G commits on 10G 
interfaces or even four 1G commits on 10G interfaces if needs must. Preferrably 
burstable, of course.
  That way you can easily handle any one upstream being down.

> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from 4 
> carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these?
  I'm not saying you can't do this, but it's going to require a lot of fiddling 
and hand holding. You'll easily max out some interfaces and underutilize 
others. Turning the BGP knobs is never going to neatly distribute traffic from 
one interface to the other and any changes can have non-linear effects.

> Just AS pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one over 
> another?
  When it comes down to brass tacks, prepends are just suggestions. They may or 
may not be heeded. More specific prefixes, tho, will definitely drive traffic. 
However, it's a rather blunt tool and more of an all or nothing thing and 
requires that you have a covering supernet for fallback to avoid effectively 
single homing yourself.

> Or is there a better way?
  Use communities.

Jared

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Maybe you need to elaborate.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 8:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Please, please only use prefix length as a traffic engineering effort as the 
very, very last measure. Those that do that make the Internet worse for 
everyone.

-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP

  _  

From: "Steven Kenney" mailto:st...@wavedirect.org> >
To: "af" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 7:44:43 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

What he said  prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can.  Also yes time to look 
for some 10Gbps interfaces.  No way around it!  I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces.  Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned.  
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves.  It will only grow and is going faster and faster.  Don't 
worry about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 
years.  

STEVEN KENNEY 
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 
E: st...@wavedirect.org   | P: 519-737-9283
W: www.wavedirect.net  

  _  

From: "Adam Moffett" mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> >
To: "af" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

I like the curling analogy.  No perfect load balancing across the Internet.

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier.  BGP will use the longer 
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet.  If you have a bunch of 
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if 
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it.

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", 
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way 
it will come in.  You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, 
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee 
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your 
testing and the eventual unplanned outage.  If you need 4Gb, then you 
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy.  Depends 
what you're willing to live with.  There's a saying that "slow is better 
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid 
either "slow" or "down" conditions.

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me 
GigE optics.  If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then 
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity.  An upgrade then is just a 
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap 
interface cards.

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Right. Which is not ideal.
>
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof >  > wrote:
>>
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science.  It's like the guy with
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome.
>>
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On 
>> Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com  
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers
>>
>> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from several top
>> tier carriers relatively inexpensively.
>> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier.
>>
>> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from 4
>> carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Also, if you're exceeding the 1G level, you really need to be connecting to an 
IX to offload the bulk of your traffic. If you're exceeding 10G, you need to be 
connecting to multiple IXes. 

I see ISPs all of the time thinking they need 40G and 100G connections to 
Cogent and Hurricane, but their IX and PNI strategy is weaksauce. 

- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven Kenney"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 7:44:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

What he said prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can. Also yes time to look for 
some 10Gbps interfaces. No way around it! I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces. Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned. 
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves. It will only grow and is going faster and faster. Don't worry 
about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 years. 

logo
STEVEN KENNEY 
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 
E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283 
W: www.wavedirect.net 

- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

I like the curling analogy. No perfect load balancing across the Internet. 

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier. BGP will use the longer 
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet. If you have a bunch of 
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if 
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it. 

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", 
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way 
it will come in. You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, 
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee 
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your 
testing and the eventual unplanned outage. If you need 4Gb, then you 
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy. Depends 
what you're willing to live with. There's a saying that "slow is better 
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid 
either "slow" or "down" conditions. 

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me 
GigE optics. If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then 
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity. An upgrade then is just a 
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap 
interface cards. 

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> Right. Which is not ideal. 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote: 
>> 
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe 
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science. It's like the guy with 
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome. 
>> 
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of 
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds. 
>> 
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM 
>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
>> 
>> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from several top 
>> tier carriers relatively inexpensively. 
>> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier. 
>> 
>> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from 4 
>> carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these? Just AS 
>> pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one over another? 
>> Or is there a better way? 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

Please, please only use prefix length as a traffic engineering effort as the 
very, very last measure. Those that do that make the Internet worse for 
everyone. 

- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven Kenney"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 7:44:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

What he said prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can. Also yes time to look for 
some 10Gbps interfaces. No way around it! I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces. Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned. 
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves. It will only grow and is going faster and faster. Don't worry 
about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 years. 

logo
STEVEN KENNEY 
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 
E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283 
W: www.wavedirect.net 

- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

I like the curling analogy. No perfect load balancing across the Internet. 

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier. BGP will use the longer 
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet. If you have a bunch of 
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if 
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it. 

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", 
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way 
it will come in. You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, 
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee 
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your 
testing and the eventual unplanned outage. If you need 4Gb, then you 
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy. Depends 
what you're willing to live with. There's a saying that "slow is better 
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid 
either "slow" or "down" conditions. 

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me 
GigE optics. If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then 
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity. An upgrade then is just a 
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap 
interface cards. 

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> Right. Which is not ideal. 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote: 
>> 
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe 
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science. It's like the guy with 
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome. 
>> 
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of 
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds. 
>> 
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM 
>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
>> 
>> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from several top 
>> tier carriers relatively inexpensively. 
>> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier. 
>> 
>> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from 4 
>> carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these? Just AS 
>> pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one over another? 
>> Or is there a better way? 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers

2020-11-13 Thread Steven Kenney

What he said prepending sucks.. use /24's if you can. Also yes time to look for 
some 10Gbps interfaces. No way around it! I went from 1G to several 10G 
interfaces now I'm pushing my carriers for 100G interfaces. Carriers like 
Cogeco are telling me that we are the topic of discussion on a daily basis 
because we are pushing them to upgrade their network faster than they planned. 
If they can't keep up you'll be force into getting creative and getting into 
fiber yourselves. It will only grow and is going faster and faster. Don't worry 
about starlink! 25Mbps in a house in rural areas will be not enough in 5 years. 

[ https://www.wavedirect.net/ |] 
[ https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed ] [ 
https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/ ] [ 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/ ] [ 
https://twitter.com/wavedirect1 ] [ https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect ] 
STEVEN KENNEY 
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 
E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283 
W: www.wavedirect.net 

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:38:24 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 

I like the curling analogy. No perfect load balancing across the Internet. 

You can advertise the supernet out of all carriers and also advertise 
individual /24's out of the preferred carrier. BGP will use the longer 
subnet mask first and fallback to the supernet. If you have a bunch of 
non-contiguous allocations then obviously that's not an option, but if 
you have something bigger than a /24 then you can do it. 

I also would note that if Connection "A" goes down, connection "B", "C", 
or "D" might need to carry all the load and you may not know which way 
it will come in. You can test and see what happens in a planned outage, 
and tweak your settings just so, but I don't think you can guarantee 
that topology upstream from you didn't change at some point between your 
testing and the eventual unplanned outage. If you need 4Gb, then you 
might just need two 4Gb pipes to have meaningful redundancy. Depends 
what you're willing to live with. There's a saying that "slow is better 
than down", but IMO the phone blows up either which way so best to avoid 
either "slow" or "down" conditions. 

I'll also note that every time I've ordered a 1gig circuit they gave me 
GigE optics. If you order anything bigger, even if it's 1.1Gig then 
it'll be a 10Gig interface by necessity. An upgrade then is just a 
phone call, whereas the upgrade from 1Gig is a scheduled outage to swap 
interface cards. 

On 11/12/2020 7:15 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> Right. Which is not ideal. 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote: 
>> 
>> There are smarter people than me here on the topic of BGP, but I believe 
>> load balancing via prepends is an inexact science. It's like the guy with 
>> the broom in curling, you can influence but not dictate the outcome. 
>> 
>> You'd probably have better control advertising each subnet via just one of 
>> the upstream providers, but then you lose the advantage of redundant feeds. 
>> 
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 5:45 PM 
>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers 
>> 
>> I have a situation where I can buy several 1 gigabit pipes from several top 
>> tier carriers relatively inexpensively. 
>> Or I can buy one fat pipe from one carrier. 
>> 
>> Say I need 4 gigabits of bandwidth and have four 1 gigabit pipes from 4 
>> carriers running BGP, is there a best way to load balance these? Just AS 
>> pre-pend subsets on each carrier so certain subnets prefer one over another? 
>> Or is there a better way? 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com 
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-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Multiple carriers