Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
Yes DAC design and chips can be interesting with the rigth aproach ( i dont design dac hardware so i cant contribute ) Hint its not like changing pickups on a turntable , with the rigth design of the complete DAC you yield similar and god results ( a humanly transparent DAC with low noise and distortion ) The ladder DAC , NOS and unfiltered stands out i would say its audible without dbt :) but not for a good reason , its simply wrong . And i think the 1543 actually have a frequency response error corrected by the old filter circuit it was used together with . Tech nostalgia what a feeling , if something gets old and forgotten , sudenly we forgot why it was ditched ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
Mnyb wrote: > Note that I sugested "pull the plug and listen to the player buffer" as > a way to actually understand how little the server does vs SQ . Not as > a serius sugestion . I knew that, because I wasn't angry when I read your post. But angry people don't read what was written, or at the very least are responding to what their preconceived ideas tell them you meant when you wrote what you wrote. People tend to get angry in internet threads because they think people aren't listening to them, when in fact people are doing to them what they are doing to others - misunderstanding the deeper meaning that is not fully communicated on the page. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
drmatt wrote: > So in other words you are venting your spleen. Good for you. Welcome to > the playground. :) +1 Note that I sugested "pull the plug and listen to the player buffer" as a way to actually understand how little the server does vs SQ . Not as a serius sugestion . ( hint it sounds the same and if you are fast to reconect the player it refills its buffer and you never notice .) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Redbook can't be treated like a hard drive though. Yes almost every rip should be identical, even on a cheap drive, but when you get into re-read territory it's a bit hit and miss because there is no such thing as a sector-accurate seek on Redbook. Most rippers are good enough to deal with this these days by over reading and realigning the data they received from the drive. But why all the anger people? Too much whisky before sitting in front of the keyboard? drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality > DVD drive with the best software you can find. No they don't - that the fundemental nature of digital processing and the whole mathematical theory sustaining it that you misunderstand and confuse with analogue signal. In digital, with the right error correction code, you can copy the same information as many time as you want, it does not matter, there is no loss because the physical support of the information has no influence: it can be optical, electrical, magnetic, white or black smoke, apple and oranges, it does not matter. A bit represented by an apple is not better than a bit represented by a black smoke. The carried "symbol" matters, not what is used to carry it. In analogue, the signal and its support are mangled. LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne, JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+, Odroid-C1, Cubie2 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Mnyb wrote: > There is a system called accurate rip .From dB power amp or EAC you can > get flawless rips with any hardware that can find the bits . The ripper > tells you if it did not manage . > > You can't beat perfection getting a 100% perfect rip is not hard it's > routine these days . Yes the whole,disc is ripped error free . > I rip 4 CDs at a time using 4 TSSTCorp SH 224 drives running under EAC. I also obtain a high percentage of Accuraterip confirmations, the exceptions usually damaged or dirty disks. I can't believe the ignorant BS that certain golden ears are spewing here just lately. They have obviously not learned about how confirmation bias will provide perceived evidence to confirm their wildest speculations. Since ears have no reasoning abilities I can see how they come to the conclusions that they report receiving from their ears. > > Even with lesser software you usually gets perfect rips almost every > time if the disc is not to damaged, but you can't be sure . The error > correction on CD is not as good as on DVD but it does exist and works to > some degree . > There is some redundancy on the disc so data can be reconstructed > perfectly if there is a scratch or two . Agreed. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Sorry , I forgot to add the DAC chip must have some qualities to begin with . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Is not implementation "everything" ? A chip does not perform in isolation , the whole total design is what makes it perform . And from what I read the TP designed to to make god use of this chip . And anyone can notice how many other DAC's often brags about what chip they are using as marketing ? Circuit design and PCM board design is real engineering. That's why OP-amp rolling and random capacitor swaps some DIY audiophiles do don't work , you usually manage to offset a very carefully done design . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality > DVD drive with the best software you can find. There is a system called accurate rip .From dB power amp or EAC you can get flawless rips with any hardware that can find the bits . The ripper tells you if it did not manage . You can't beat perfection getting a 100% perfect rip is not hard it's routine these days . Yes the whole,disc is ripped error free . Even with lesser software you usually gets perfect rips almost every time if the disc is not to damaged, but you can't be sure . The error correction on CD is not as good as on DVD but it does exist and works to some degree . There is some redundancy on the disc so data can be reconstructed perfectly if there is a scratch or two . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
d6jg wrote: > You know the answer to all those questions but can I add for absolute > clarification that if your PC cost less than £1000 or USD1200 then you > clearly shouldn't insert a CD for ripping under any circumstances. I'm going to have to re-rip EVERTHING ;-) Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk tcutting's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17402 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
tcutting wrote: > Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played > (eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download > an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of > the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file? > When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced > into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD, > and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be > minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this > process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile > DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also > add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest > fidelity during this stage in the digital chain? Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality DVD drive with the best software you can find. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
tcutting wrote: > Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played > (eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download > an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of > the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file? > When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced > into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD, > and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be > minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this > process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile > DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also > add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest > fidelity during this stage in the digital chain? You know the answer to all those questions but can I add for absolute clarification that if your PC cost less than £1000 or USD1200 then you clearly shouldn't insert a CD for ripping under any circumstances. *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > LMS is a link in the chain of digital data being transmitted from a > source [HD, file etc.] and a Dac. Anything along the chain and induce > jitter. Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played (eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file? When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD, and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest fidelity during this stage in the digital chain? tcutting's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17402 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
My question is aimed at those down here in the cellar that have the ability to interpret 1s and 0s differently to everyone else because they can apparently hear what can't possibly be there better than the rest of us. I will accept that my DAC and everything after that in the chain can influence the sound I hear but not that my 1s and 0s can be affected by factors such as whether someone else in the household is streaming something from the internet at the same time or that what I listen to comes from the players buffer when LMS is off. It is still 1s and 0s. I get annoyed by the total stupidity of some people every time I venture down here. Not all (not you Apesbrain). Just some, but those some seem to be the most vocal. Michael - please blank out the elevator button for the cellar! Please. *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
d6jg wrote: > You are taking my question literally - and I thank you for the answer - > but the question is not intended literally. OK, you got me! Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
Apesbrain wrote: > Not sure if I'm addressing your question but I've noticed when I > attenuate the space between tracks on a digitized LP it sounds too > "black". I usually just do a brief fade in the half-second before the > next track. You are taking my question literally - and I thank you for the answer - but the question is not intended literally. *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
Not sure if I'm addressing your question but I've noticed when I attenuate the space between tracks on a digitized LP it sounds too "black". I usually just do a brief fade in the half-second before the next track. Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > *Comments like "Chill out" are often interpreted as "Talking down*". If > I haven't learned how to chill in 7 decades, it would be pretty > hopeless. If you understand the application of DBTs to audio you'd know > that the big message that they deliver is a hearty "Chill out". > *So are:* -(and I quote)-... "*Shows that you are totally ignorant of the true facts...*" and "*Your post only makes sense as a joke...*" Just sayin' Arny? Hopefully a gentleman of your experience understands where Im coming from? Frank Zappa fan here, but this time Thumper's Father says it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGt9jAkWie4 Thanks for the spec sheet on the AKM AK4396 Arny, had seen extracts from it but not the whole document. Interesting from an engineering perspective, shows that implementation of the Dac chip is important too? Lots of more modern Dac chips that read better "on paper" but on worse sounding budget kit. Anyways... :) Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
PS My mild form of tinnitus definitely sounds better in digital - at least it does to my slightly tarnished yellow ochre ears! *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Analogue or Digital?
If I digitised - note that is a UK digitisation not the sort practiced in the USA or other places where they only think they can speak or write English - a vinyl record to FLAC do you think that if left unprocessed by fancy dancy software would a period of silence "recorded" in this way sound better than a purely digital period of silence? I ask because the artists intention so far as reproduction is concerned doesn't seem relevant in this case somehow so it's down to you guys who understand this sort of stuff to rule on the subject. Obviously had the whole process occurred in the USA as a digitization then I would expect different results! *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106583 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
DJanGo wrote: > 142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content. > > Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and > improve your knowledge for the benefit of others? > eg. writing some code for the weekly updates? Hm just for kicks how could someone contribute to the LMS effort? edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
arnyk wrote: > You do understand that normal human being type ears can neither think > nor speak, right? You mean your ears don't talk to you independently of what you think and say? Of course I know that, it's a metaphor, and no my ears didn't tell me to write that... My hands did it all on there own edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > No I can't explain it.my ears tell me what they like and I listen. > You do understand that normal human being type ears can neither think nor speak, right? arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was > different vs the i7. 3 reasons for the perception of an audible difference, even if there was not any. (1) No level matching (2) No time synchronization (3) Sighted Odds that there was a possibly technical reason for the audible difference, less than 3%. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
DJanGo wrote: > 142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content. > > Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and > improve your knowledge for the benefit of others? > eg. writing some code for the weekly updates? who me? write code for weekly updates? nah I'm too dumb for that... although some years ago I did skin lms, I made two different skins as supposed to the normal black,greenish and white old skin. I lost it when my old windows machine crashed and was too lazy to reproduce it. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > That comment had an internal sarcastic smiley attached when I wrote it. > Unfortunately even UTF8 can't reproduce the smileys I only think about > instead of typing. The unicode standards group still accepts new entries... :) > Or are you saying that quantum stuff doesn't happen? ;) It might or might not happen. Are we looking? :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
That comment had an internal sarcastic smiley attached when I wrote it. Unfortunately even UTF8 can't reproduce the smileys I only think about instead of typing. Or are you saying that quantum stuff doesn't happen? ;) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > Well, quantum is, *officially* fecking weird. Would not surprise me. "if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you dont." Just because someone can think of a very contorted and unlikely way something might happen doesn't prove it happens. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Jeff07971 wrote: > I wonder wether jitter can be quantum entangled ? :) That's a nice one :) I know you're joking, but seriously, being on some LMS plugin development and also having a signal processing theory's background, I can guarantee that there is no correlation between what the data source does and a potential jitter at playback. Players do buffer a lot of audio data, that's part of the LMS protocol. Sources are simply asynchronous HTTP servers that know nothing about what even jitter means. The way the synchronization protocol works in LMS has nothing to do with how the source provides audio sample. I've implemented an AirPlay to LMS bridge that provide sync between the two "sync logics/domains", so I know that for a fact. I'm not part of any audiophile battle, I just read the posts from time to time and wanted to give some insights. LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne, JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+, Odroid-C1, Cubie2 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content. Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and improve your knowledge for the benefit of others? eg. writing some code for the weekly updates? DJanGo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1516 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Well, quantum is, *officially* fecking weird. Would not surprise me. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
+ Scraps and pea wet. kidstypike LMS on Raspberry Pi 3/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5 1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x Raspberry Pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Jeff07971 wrote: > I wonder wether jitter can be quantum entangled ? :) Careful - some audiophiles might start presenting that as a real possibility! "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
Rank + Gravy with Salt & Vinegar + Curry Sauce + Salt & Vinegar on its own *Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30 > seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed > while it drained its buffer either.. This is what I found when (in another thread) I put an OpenVPN client onto Pcp 3.02, the gaps in packets and the "jitter" of the packet timings was huge 10's of ms at times and the player just carried on playing absolutely fine (its kinda what tcp/ip's for :) ) *Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer x3,Wandboard *Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on Dell T320 *Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud *Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite *Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs *Want a webapp ?* See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS Jeff07971's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=49290 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30 > seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed > while it drained its buffer either.. But maybe the jitter is projected into the DAC as long as the server is in the same room? :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Mnyb wrote: > > Squeezebox Touch have aprox 30 seconds of audiodata in the buffer for a > CD quality flac file . > So you can remove the ethernet cable and listen to the buffer. Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30 seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed while it drained its buffer either.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > No I can't explain it.my ears tell me what they like and I listen. > Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify > what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is > [placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source. Fair enough. What we are trying to tell you is that a physical explanation to what you hear is about as unlikely as random numbers changing in your spreadsheets as they are copied off the hard disk, web pages having random letters flipped, or computer programs malfunctioning because they get corrupted when downloaded - while the placebo effect is not at all unlikely. So the first step would be to eliminate the possibility of placebo (and remember placebo has very little to do with your *conscious* expectations). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > I would have to say that I find that hard to believe. Unless it was > genuinely not capable of providing the pre-requisite data rate due to > poor performance and you were getting glitches, or of course it was > doing different audio data processing. > > I can say for sure I can't tell the difference between the audio from my > LMS server (no matter what hardware it sat on) and that from a cheap DVD > player (playing the CD) fed into the same DAC. Well its not like I wanted to believe it. I'd much rather use a cheap BBB or RPi for the LMS. I've tried it over and over and over again hoping NOT to hear a difference. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > No I can't explain it.my ears tell me what they like and I listen. > Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify > what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is > [placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source. But in the server case it's not really jitter as that has not happened yet ? We are not playing audio yet . That was the stroke of genius with the squeezeboxes remove playback from the computer , stuff the computer elsewhere , build players that does not depend on drivers or OS et al and with predicable behaviour . ( no fuzzing about with kernel steaming wasabi asio etc and ever changing settings ... ) You can ofcourse run player and server on the same thing/PC if you want ,but why ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was > different vs the i7. I would have to say that I find that hard to believe. Unless it was genuinely not capable of providing the pre-requisite data rate due to poor performance and you were getting glitches, or of course it was doing different audio data processing. I can say for sure I can't tell the difference between the audio from my LMS server and that from a DVD player (playing the CD) fed into the same DAC. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Julf wrote: > I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or > just trolling. > > Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered > packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like > S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you > heard the expression "independent clock domains"? Pulling your leg, no I'm serious but I'd rather keep it light hearted vs. too serious and argumentative. We may disagree but I still find you folks my audiophile friends. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Julf wrote: > I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or > just trolling. > > Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered > packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like > S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you > heard the expression "independent clock domains"? No I can't explain it.my ears tell me what they like and I listen. Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is [placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
What I'm trying to say is that with a dedicated endpiont like a squeezebox Touch or PI is that all playback "issues" are moved to the player . The server plays no audio at all . You can have jitter and all other well known audio problems on the player, thats the whole piont . Server can be whatever is up to the task . The chosen player decides the audio quality. Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
But theier simply is no transport "jitter" to a squeezebox over the network ? It's meanigless question in this context. If the ipmpackers arrive and can fill the players internal buffer your alrigth . A squeezebox is completely server agnostic . TCP-IP is asynchronous. Using a squeezebox is not the same as playing audio on the machine itself via some soundcard. Jitter may occur when you are using for example a spdiff output to a DAC . When there also is time involved TCP-IP is something else . It's the same as telling that my ripped CD sounds diffrent if i download a copy from the web. Squeezebox Touch have aprox 30 seconds of audiodata in the buffer for a CD quality flac file . So you remove the ethernet cable and listen to the buffer . None of that OS tweaking BS apply to squeezboxes . It hardly apply to normal Computer audio , but squeezeboxes are one step further from the "problem" . This is not how things work . Its a false claim to say that squeezeboxes performs diffrent with diffrent servers when they in fact output the exact same signals on its outputs regardless of server. Thats how they work and how they are designed to work. Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > If you THINK thats true, then try two different sources one with very > high jitter and one with very low. Let your own ears tell you "their" > truth. I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or just trolling. Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you heard the expression "independent clock domains"? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
arnyk wrote: > Jitter is a physical parameter that is readily measured. Below a certain > point, it is completely inaudible. Modern commercial digital audio gear > with audible jitter is very rare. > > The phrase "...latent jitter..." is either meaningless on the grounds of > being overly vague, or indicates no actual problem because after all, > *laten*t means "concealed and not manifest" If you THINK thats true, then try two different sources one with very high jitter and one with very low. Let your own ears tell you "their" truth. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > Sure, none of my business why you invested in an i7 with maxed out ram > when a raspberry pi will do.. ;) > > I would bet there's no way for you to load your server sufficiently to > even measure a difference in the packet delivery time at the receiver > end. Otherwise, Facebook might not work so well! ( Unless, of course, > you just hammer the network link to death - that's a given.) I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was different vs the i7. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > You explain why you think a source latent with jitter will not affect > audio quality. Jitter is a physical parameter that is readily measured. Below a certain point, it is completely inaudible. Modern commercial digital audio gear with audible jitter is very rare. The phrase "...latent jitter..." is either meaningless on the grounds of being overly vague, or indicates no actual problem because after all, *laten*t means "concealed and not manifest" arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
There is no audio stream jitter until the data is loaded into a DAC. Until that point it is just a memory buffer with numbers in. Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > Well if you have Golden Ears you would appreciate finessing things > beyond what mere mortals think as relevant...:p > > Yeah I get what you are sayingbut...tweaking is fun and if my > imagination can perceive a difference [even placebo] then why not? Sure, none of my business why you invested in an i7 with maxed out ram when a raspberry pi will do.. ;) I would bet there's no way for you to load your server sufficiently to even measure a difference in the packet delivery time at the receiver end. Otherwise, Facebook might not work so well! ( Unless, of course, you just hammer the network link to death - that's a given.) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
utgg wrote: > Explain what you mean by that and how it is relevant to audio quality. You explain why you think a source latent with jitter will not affect audio quality. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > We are talking about jitter from the source. Explain what you mean by that and how it is relevant to audio quality. utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Gazjam wrote: > And they say Americans dont do irony... ;) > > Arny, > Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know. > > Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system > really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the > kit with a scope and double blind testing. > Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut? > Comments like "Chill out" are often interpreted as "Talking down". If I haven't learned how to chill in 7 decades, it would be pretty hopeless. If you understand the application of DBTs to audio you'd know that the big message that they deliver is a hearty "Chill out". > > Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter? > The Transporter DAC is a very fine piece of work the AKM AK4396 multi-bit Sigma-Delta reference DAC - likely to measure better than a very high proportion of the audio DACs in service or on the market. AKM AK4396 - a piece with about 120 dB SNR -http://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4396VF.pdf vast overkill for even the highest quality audio. > > And would your expectations of differences between the two systems > affect the outcome of the test? > Not a proper comparison - the Transpoerter is a digital musical player, and the GPX is a complete system. I think we all know GPX's position in the audio food chain - bottom feeders. However, good DAC chips have gotten so cheap that it may well be based on a DAC chip that is sonically indistinguishable from the best. It no doubt measures far worse, but measurements aren't at all the same as listening. Listening has a clear and present law of diminishing returns, and measurements, much less so. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
utgg wrote: > The "jitter and latency" referred to in that Redhat article is the delay > and variability in scheduling of real-time threads. Nothing at all to do > with the jitter of a clock in a DAC. Nobody said it had anything to do with a clock in a Dac. We are talking about jitter from the source. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > And if you read around you will also see that a typical "low latency" > kernel responds, on average, more slowly than a lightly utilised normal > kernel, because the real-time variant is tuned to provide guaranteed > response times, not the fastest possible. > > Secondly, and mainly, as I mentioned above, LMS is forced to wake up and > send a chunk of audio to a player in the range of "several times a > second". The tuning you are talking about is several powers of ten finer > than that. Even a standard kernel gets a clock tick every 1/100th of a > second so will always get your network packet into your app well before > then next buffer needs to be sent. > > This armchair engineer has worked in kernel tuning for decades, and IMHO > you are finessing beyond what is relevant, by several powers of ten. > > I restate: LMS does not play audio, it sends asynchronous data to an > audio player in very large chunks. Well if you have Golden Ears you would appreciate finessing things beyond what mere mortals think as relevant...:p Yeah I get what you are sayingbut...tweaking is fun and if my imagination can perceive a difference [even placebo] then why not? edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > _ > > HERE_IS_SOME_INFO_FROM_REDHAT...[IF_YOU_CAN_BELIEVE_THEY_KNOW_WHAT_THEY_ARE_TALKING_ABOUT]_ > Newer CPUs may alter their performance based on a workload heuristic in > order to save > power. This is at odds with latency-sensitive workload requirements, > causing sub-optimal > performance/jitter. > > here is limited flexibility with regard to kernel threads as > compared to userspace threads. Here are some options for task affinity > and isolation to > reduce jitter and latency:Isolate CPU cores from > userspace tasks > . > > https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/2012_perf_brief-low_latency_tuning_for_rhel6_0.pdf > > > FYI, plenty of more information on the Web. Texas Instruments, RedHat > and plenty of other companies with the money and staff to do "real" > research can provide a lot of good data. All of my tweaks etc. comes > from them as suppose to arm-chair engineers found in forums. > > Years ago I read an article by Texas Instruments which clearly showed > the results of an experiment that showed the correlation between USB > wire length and jitter.even as USB trace increased on motherboards > jitter increased. Of course as predicted people laughed at me and said I > was crazyclinging to the idea of some crap about digital data via > spdif needed to be >1.5m and applying that to USB [because it too was > digital data]. The "jitter and latency" referred to in that Redhat article is the delay and variability in scheduling of real-time threads. Nothing at all to do with the jitter of a clock in a DAC. utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
And if you read around you will also see that a typical "low latency" kernel responds, on average, more slowly than a lightly utilised normal kernel, because the real-time variant is tuned to provide guaranteed response times, not the fastest possible. Secondly, and mainly, as I mentioned above, LMS is forced to wake up and send a chunk of audio to a player in the range of "several times a second". The tuning you are talking about is several powers of ten finer than that. Even a standard kernel gets a clock tick every 1/100th of a second so will always get your network packet into your app well before then next buffer needs to be sent. This armchair engineer has worked in kernel tuning for decades, and IMHO you are finessing beyond what is relevant, by several powers of ten. I restate: LMS does not play audio, it sends asynchronous data to an audio player in very large chunks. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
drmatt wrote: > Lms doesn't play audio, how can it exhibit jitter? > > Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk LMS is a link in the chain of digital data being transmitted from a source [HD, file etc.] and a Dac. Anything along the chain and induce jitter. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Julf wrote: > Does it? Would love to see the actual correlation. _ HERE_IS_SOME_INFO_FROM_REDHAT...[IF_YOU_CAN_BELIEVE_THEY_KNOW_WHAT_THEY_ARE_TALKING_ABOUT]_ Newer CPUs may alter their performance based on a workload heuristic in order to save power. This is at odds with latency-sensitive workload requirements, causing sub-optimal performance/jitter. here is limited flexibility with regard to kernel threads as compared to userspace threads. Here are some options for task affinity and isolation to reduce jitter and latency:Isolate CPU cores from userspace tasks . https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/2012_perf_brief-low_latency_tuning_for_rhel6_0.pdf FYI, plenty of more information on the Web. Texas Instruments, RedHat and plenty of other companies with the money and staff to do "real" research can provide a lot of good data. All of my tweaks etc. comes from them as suppose to arm-chair engineers found in forums. Years ago I read an article by Texas Instruments which clearly showed the results of an experiment that showed the correlation between USB wire length and jitter.even as USB trace increased on motherboards jitter increased. Of course as predicted people laughed at me and said I was crazyclinging to the idea of some crap about digital data via spdif needed to be >1.5m and applying that to USB [because it too was digital data]. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Lms doesn't play audio, how can it exhibit jitter? Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > I thought 0% is ideal...for example as % increases so does jitter. Does it? Would love to see the actual correlation. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Gazjam wrote: > And they say Americans dont do irony... ;) > > Arny, > Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know. > > Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system > really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the > kit with a scope and double blind testing. > Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut? > > But after having it pointed out to me your right... > I'm selling all my gear now and buying one of these. :p > 21634 > Serious question for you? > Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter? > > And would your expectations of differences between the two systems > affect the outcome of the test? > > (I'm thinking of Heisenberg's "Uncertainty if this Guys actually > trolling?" Principle... which states you cant measure the speed and > position of the BSh*t coming from someones mouth without affecting the > outcome) > So measurements are out the window on this one Arny and I'll just have > to subjectively listen what your saying and the tone of how your saying > it. > > Us Brits do sarcasm quite well :) > > All meant in good humour friend. > So long and thanks for all the fish. That Desktop system as "Audiophile BLUE" lights, so it MUST sound awesome edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Julf wrote: > That's what I would have assumed. Can we agree that is overkill? :) I thought 0% is ideal...for example as % increases so does jitter. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > Pretty much 0% That's what I would have assumed. Can we agree that is overkill? :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
Julf wrote: > And what is the typical CPU load and RAM usage? Pretty much 0% edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > Abusing others is a natural consequence of being a Golden Ear. And they say Americans dont do irony... ;) Arny, Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know. Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the kit with a scope and double blind testing. Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut? But after having it pointed out to me your right... I'm selling all my gear now and buying one of these. 21634 Serious question for you? Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter? And would your expectations of differences between the two systems affect the outcome of the test? (I'm thinking of Heisenberg's "Uncertainty if this Guys actually Trolling? Principle"... which states you cant measure the speed and position of the BSh*t coming from someones mouth without affecting the outcome) Guess measurements are out the window on this one and I'll just have to listen what your saying Arny and the tone of how your saying it. Us Brits do sarcasm quite well :) All meant in good humour, dont take yourself so seriously man. Peace. +---+ |Filename: IMG_1161.JPG | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21634| +---+ Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered. > > My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD > > I think thats about normal for a server. And what is the typical CPU load and RAM usage? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio
edwardthern wrote: > i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered. > > My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD > > I think thats about normal for a server. i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.-- Yes it is and yours is ridculously so - I run 6 servers on less hardware and the limiting factor is still the Gigabit ethernet *Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer x3,Wandboard *Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on Dell T320 *Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud *Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite *Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs *Want a webapp ?* See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS Jeff07971's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=49290 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106578 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
