Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I agree. A fact-based discussion is good, and it does seem like your > numbers provide pretty strong evidence that the CPU load is greater when > decoding a compressed file format compared to the extra I/O load caused > by the uncompressed data. > > Any possible audible effects are of course still speculation. All of this is has a lower chance to alter the sound as some minimum phase upsampling. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Wombat wrote: > All of this is has a lower chance to alter the sound as some minimum > phase upsampling. Good point. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
sckramer wrote: > I prefer feeding the client PCM (WAV) only, for all file types, even for > mp3, then the CPU is practically idle, it just has to read it out to the > PCM->i2s chip It might minimize userspace CPU load, but it increases I/O load due to having to transfer and load double the amount of data. For mp3, doing the decoding on the server might actually make sense, as you can use better software. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > i did a little comparison on one track, and felt there was a small, but > subtle difference... Sounds like it was a sighted comparison - you knew which file was which, right? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Hi,
back here just to inform you that modified squeezelite that allow
playback of serverside upsampled WAV/AIFF files is out, availlable on
GitHub (https://github.com/marcoc1712/squeezelite) also as binary for
Windows, LInux 32 and 64 bit. Same version is in the latest versions of
Daphile, that is now working that way.
As I've already reported, we sperimented a signiicative reduction of
thes cpu load both in the client and in the server, compared with the
same upsampling but transferring FLAC from server to client, the
increased CPU load thath - might - occour becouse wav file is almost
double in size than the corresponding flac, if far less.
This is quite obvious if you consider the two paths:
flac - flac:
flac 44.1/16 -> pcm 44.1/16 -> pcm 176.4 -> flac 176.4 ...///... flac
176.4 -> pcm 176.4
flac -pcm:
flac 44.1/16 -> pcm 44.1/16 ...///... pcm 176.4
where actually pcm is wav in the second.
You save the encoding in flac of the big 176.4 file in the server and
the decode in the client.
Those are not 'small' task at all, so cpu load is decresed by almost 70%
in the server and by 50% on the client. Real values depends on hw and
operating systems, I've already reported some and people start to report
others. You could simply download this version of squeezelite, change
custom-convert.conf and try by yourself in your system.
Here the profile we use in custom-convert.conf
flc pcm squeezelite *
# FT:{START=--skip=%t}U:{END=--until=%v}
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav -r
176400-c 2 -3 -s -L - gain -3 rate -v -M -a -b 90.7 dither -S
You could then change sox parameters as you like.
WARNING: upsampling a 44.1/16 file to 176.4 Hz, 32 bit file means
multilply by a factor of 8 the file size, using wav instead of flac by 2
more (resulting in 16), You must be sure you connection has enougth
bandwidth to use.
Please note I did not mention 'sound quality' in any way here.
As a note, I'm not sure upsampling is a so good practice, but if you
really have or just want, better doing it in the server and much better
avoiding flac in between.
SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo
reference and DIS Interconnect.
marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Is that user-mode CPU, or does it also include time spent in the kernel > and device drivers? I've already reported, but latest form my system are: 1. Squeezelite went from 4% to 1-2%. Total charge from 11% to 6% on the client. 2.Total charge on server went form 20% to 11%, different systems uses different process structure, so better compare only total charge and only by a relative matter. 20 to 11 is - in that matter - similar to 10 to 5. I Already know you are going to say this is a too naife way to take measures, but You could measure only the encodind and decoding in flac of an Hirez flac file and get an Idea of what are you saving here. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Those are not 'small' task at all, so cpu load is decresed by almost 70% > in the server and by 50% on the client. Is that user-mode CPU, or does it also include time spent in the kernel and device drivers? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > That's not comparable, have you tried? Yes, and I think I reported my results earlier. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Would someone please be kind enough to explain to me is a clear and concise matter how the server CPU load can possibly have any effect on the sound quality of any Squeezebox player, considering that the player is playing back the file from a buffer? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > It might minimize userspace CPU load, but it increases I/O load due to > having to transfer and load double the amount of data. For mp3, doing > the decoding on the server might actually make sense, as you can use > better software. That's not comparable, have you tried? at 44.1 you could forget major costs (unless very bad and old Wifi), at higher samplerates the cost to encode and decode is far bigger, just try by yourself on your system. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > I Already know you are going to say this is a too naife way to take > measures, but You could measure only the encodind and decoding in flac > of an Hirez flac file and get an Idea of what are you saving here. Well, you knew I was going to say it, but I will still say it again - measuring only user-space CPU usage does not give a very good picture of overall resource usage. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Sounds like it was a sighted comparison - you knew which file was which, > right? yes, but see my earlier posts where i stated AIF sounded superior to APL, so if anything the result is contrary to my previously stated bias. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > Would someone please be kind enough to explain to me is a clear and > concise matter how the server CPU load can possibly have any effect on > the sound quality of any Squeezebox player, considering that the player > is playing back the file from a buffer? I think marcoc1712 (very wisely) specifically avoided discussing sound quality. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I think marcoc1712 (very wisely) specifically avoided discussing sound > quality. While that is very wise of marcoc1712, this does not answer my question. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > yes, but see my earlier posts where i stated AIF sounded superior to > APL, so if anything the result is contrary to my previously stated bias. It is not contrary to a (potential) bias towards the existence of a difference. What you are saying is basically "I saw a black unicorn, but I have always thought they were white, so it must be real". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > Would someone please be kind enough to explain to me is a clear and > concise matter how the server CPU load can possibly have any effect on > the sound quality of any Squeezebox player, considering that the player > is playing back the file from a buffer? Short One: None. Long One: None, if not in very, very, very poor or broken systems. Always IMHO. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > While that is very wise of marcoc1712, this does not answer my question. 1. I've never sayd CPU load on the server could affect sound quality... As I never said almost anything you and other are mocking here. So, I did not ever had to answer to your question, that was OT. But I think I did. 2. Don't want you consider me wise becouse retain myself to expose my mind being afreighted by stupid mocking, Wise is not how I'll call this kind of men. To remaind people what's this thead should be about: a. I've reported that, using my system, I could heard some difference between FLAC and WAV Playback. b. It happen sometime to me to 'feel' the same in other systems. c. Other people reports the same. That's all about subjective perception, I know, shall we start a survey/test? I'm here, tell me what I have to do. d. Since some people do think CPU load on client side could matter, I've reported that decoding a 176.4 Flac file is not exactly a 'lite' task, and it's not comparable with the cpu load inducted by the almost doubled network traffic. e. Server side, the cost of encoding is even greather and when running local player plugn, Daphile or similar has no meaning at all, it's just a great resource waste. Sure if you run Wifi at 11 Mb/s is not for you, but I think you better forget upsampling at all in this case. Do you think is not like that? Download my software, try yourself in your system and report your data. Please stay on this matter in this thread, is not about how audiophiles are fool, we already know this. Marco. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > I've just reported both... Indeed. And the total cpu numbers might actually give a reasonable picture. What tool did you use to get the numbers? Top? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Indeed. And the total cpu numbers might actually give a reasonable > picture. What tool did you use to get the numbers? Top? Top in Linux (cpu tot = us +sy), Task manager in win. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Short One: None. > Long One: None, if not in very, very, very poor or broken systems. > > Always IMHO. Yeah ... I probably should not jump in here but I cannot resist :). It is very difficult to agree with the connection between CPU load and any sort of impact on audio (through noise being aliased in audible band). Frankly, the correlation, if any, is extremely thin and complicated. An example (just an example) is that what can matter in term of digitally generate noise, if you want to go there, can be the cyclic nature of your processing and how that creates a pattern that aliases wrongly through many routes, including your DC/DC converters. So here, lower CPU with patterns can be more problematic that constant high CPU that is more out of band noise. I guess what I'm trying to say is that driving correlation on a sort of chaotic system is usually (by definiton) impossible. If you talk about an overloaded system that does not have enough horse pwoer to keep up with the data stream it has to handle / produce, this is different, but I don't think this was the topic here. LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne (sort of) philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
philippe_44 wrote: > Yeah ... I probably should not jump in here but I cannot resist :). It > is very difficult to agree with the connection between CPU load and any > sort of impact on audio (through noise being aliased in audible band). > Frankly, the correlation, if any, is extremely thin and complicated. An > example (just an example) is that what can matter in term of digitally > generate noise, if you want to go there, can be the cyclic nature of > your processing and how that creates a pattern that aliases wrongly > through many routes, including your DC/DC converters. So here, lower CPU > with patterns can be more problematic that constant high CPU that is > more out of band noise. > > I guess what I'm trying to say is that driving correlation on a sort of > chaotic system is usually (by definiton) impossible. If you talk about > an overloaded system that does not have enough horse pwoer to keep up > with the data stream it has to handle / produce, this is different, but > I don't think this was the topic here. I really don't know. Some people claims lower cpu is better, some others think is the way memory is used that matter, you are pointing out something else... Sure I'm not the one who could pretend to know how it works and why, but at least we could clear the field from one big lie tourning here around for a wile: No way flac is less demanding than wav other than for network bandwidth and storage space. If someone want people believe the opposite, or use this point against streaming wav, then he has to show us why, with evidences. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
so today, i was listening to an album, and realized i kept hearing each track repeat. i checked, and i do do indeed have two copies of the album, one in AIF, and the other FLAC. so i did a little comparison on one track, and felt there was a small, but subtle difference...very subtle, but identifiable, and the FLAC file was slightly more incisive sounding. the track was the Girl from Ipanema, from the David Hazeltine Trio, Plays the Jobim Songbook in NY, and it's in 24/96. i preferred the FLAC file, at least in this music. i could see i might have a different preference with other music. btw, the server is converting the AIF file to FLAC, so i can only speculate that the lack of server overhead for the native FLAC file accounts for the difference. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > so today, i was listening to an album, and realized i kept hearing each > track repeat. i checked, and i do do indeed have two copies of the > album, one in AIF, and the other FLAC. so i did a little comparison on > one track, and felt there was a small, but subtle difference...very > subtle, but identifiable, and the FLAC file was slightly more incisive > sounding. > > the track was the Girl from Ipanema, from the David Hazeltine Trio, > Plays the Jobim Songbook in NY, and it's in 24/96. i preferred the FLAC > file, at least in this music. i could see i might have a different > preference with other music. Hi netchord, I did a similar test once, but got a different result though. I had the 2 comparison tracks loaded 5 times each in play list. I hit shuffle (without looking at result), then play. I then took a note of what track I thought was playing. After the ten tracks finished, I compared my notes with the proper play list. This showed that "I" couldn't distinguish between the tracks. But if you get 9 or 10 correct then the test needs to be repeated a few more times with nearly 100% accuracy. > btw, the server is converting the AIF file to FLAC, so i can only > speculate that the lack of server overhead for the native FLAC file > accounts for the difference. I tested something similar on a Windows LMS by turning the interactive virus scan on and off multiple times. This gave a 20 to 30% CPU load and lots of disk activity. I assumed this would be a greater load on the PC than just converting to flac without being too great to critically slow network activity. This test showed to me that "I" couldn't hear a difference. I have a few friends that can hear these minute differences, I have to believe they can because they will "never" do a test to prove it to me. regards Greg Greg Erskine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7403 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
WAV --> SHA1 HASH = 752A5A9A72964084E946E8F84983436939C7A1FF WAV --> FLAC SHA1 HASH = 0E282C46EF13A28D4F339DBA27D07BCE7DA527AC FLAC --> WAV SHA1 HASH = 752A5A9A72964084E946E8F84983436939C7A1FF you have the same file, you could convert this millions of times back & forth & it'll be the same, it will hash to: = 752A5A9A72964084E946E8F84983436939C7A1FF the subtle differences (if there are any) come from where you process the conversion, either the server or client... and those subtle differences come from how delicate jitter & spdif is to noise coming from the circutry around it I prefer feeding the client PCM (WAV) only, for all file types, even for mp3, then the CPU is practically idle, it just has to read it out to the PCM->i2s chip LMS makes this very easy, you can can configure that in "file types" in the LMS advanced web page and for mp3, you can use the latest lame.exe on the server, sometimes that is different also CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ piCorePlayer Use as spare/reference: Touch (TT 2.0 mods, removed toslink, added output transformer & bnc jack ) screen off plugin PSaudio DLIII DAC (Cullen 4 mods) - PSaudio Trio C-100 Amp (Cullen 3 mods) Energy Veritas 2.2i speakers (mundorf silver oil capacitors, inductor, and resistor mods) Martin Logan Depth i (x2) Cardas power cables - PSaudio Dectet - Cardas clear light ic -- black cat XV-ULTRA digital cable - Audioquest slate biwire sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
IMHO I think the 1s sound better than the 0s no matter what codec is used. *Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B P7 *Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
d6jg wrote: > IMHO I think the 1s sound better than the 0s no matter what codec is > used. That's not surprising since the 0s sound like nothing. But as the zen master asked "what is the sound of 1 hand clapping?" Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
d6jg wrote: > IMHO I think the 1s sound better than the 0s no matter what codec is > used. hi d6jg, No way! I have on good authority that it is the sticky bits (not the unix kind, audiophiles don't know about them) that cause the degradation in music quality. :D The fact is - some bits on a storage media are sticky. Yep, they are harder to read than a normal bit, so the extra current required to read the "sticky" bit causes a massive degradation is sound quality. Obvious when you think about it! :) regards Greg Greg Erskine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7403 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > I don't suffer from yours. No reason why not. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
poing wrote: > I wouldn't say a subjectivist point of view is necessarily > unscientific. > May well speak to personal bias. You may not want subjectivism to be known as antiscientific even though as commonly practiced, it is. For that to be true, you'd have to define subjectivism as being aware of and subservient to Science. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
poing wrote: > I wouldn't say a subjectivist point of view is necessarily unscientific. We might be getting into semantics, but I would definitely not call them scientific. > I understand that some of the posters in this thread are engineering > guys. It kind of makes sense that you take a more objectivist position. > In the natural sciences, you sometimes can have relatively tightly > controlled experiments which can be repeated a very large number of > times. > > But when we talk about human perception, I believe it's much harder to > control for every possible effect. You can't get a truly random sample > of test subjects. Perhaps your budget limits you to 30 or 50 probands. > Etc. Indeed. But then we have to look at what we really are testing for. A lot of the beliefs of many of the subjectivist audiophiles are easily proven wrong with repeatable, tightly controlled experiments that don't involve human perception at all. If we show that there is no measurable difference in the actual signal going to the loudspeaker, using measurement methods that are orders of magnitude more discerning than the human ear, I think we are in pretty safe waters. > What I'm trying to say is that I believe most research is subjectivist. > The questions you ask (as well as those you don't ask) alone make it > subjectivist. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. Absolutely. That is why we insist on peer review, replication and verification. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
I wouldn't say a subjectivist point of view is necessarily unscientific. I understand that some of the posters in this thread are engineering guys. It kind of makes sense that you take a more objectivist position. In the natural sciences, you sometimes can have relatively tightly controlled experiments which can be repeated a very large number of times. But when we talk about human perception, I believe it's much harder to control for every possible effect. You can't get a truly random sample of test subjects. Perhaps your budget limits you to 30 or 50 probands. Etc. Ultimately, you have to make some hard choices and make some assumptions based on your prior beliefs. Maybe we believe some cognitive biases can have such a profound impact that we go through the trouble of making a trial a blind trial. But maybe we believe (say, erroneously believe) subjects' emotional and moral dispositions won't matter much for the observed outcome so we fail to control for them. What I'm trying to say is that I believe most research is subjectivist. The questions you ask (as well as those you don't ask) alone make it subjectivist. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. Hopefully, it will lead us to be explicit about the assumptions we make. And it should also impact the methods we choose, e.g., using Bayesian as opposed to frequentist statistics. poing's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=63617 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > > > > > Indeed. But then we have to look at what we really are testing for. i'm not testing. i'm listening, and enjoying the music. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > i'm not testing. i'm listening, and enjoying the music. We weren't talking about you. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > you misstate what I, and likely most other subjectivists believe: "If I > hear it, I hear it." i can then decide whether to spend the time/money > to address what i've heard. in the specific instance mentioned here, > there's no time difference, and the money (in storage) is negligible. And that is of course fine in a subjectivist, "everybody is right" world, and if we would be discussing the taste of chocolate or opinions about art, it would be a totally valid form of discourse. When discussing the audibility of different file formats (or cables, for that matter), your "If I hear it, I hear it" would have to be restated "If I think I hear it, I believe I hear it" to be technically valid. Reproduction of audio is an area of engineering (a form of applied science), so the rules of science apply. It's not just a bunch of subjective opinions. Let's say you take a walk along the shores of Loch Ness, and see a huge aquatic animal out in the lake. Based on the subjectivist position of "if I see it, I see it" you would accept that Nessie exists, and it might cause you to spend time and money as a result. A more scientific approach would be to admit that it is easy to be influenced about all the stories about monsters in Loch Ness, and that a lot of floating objects might look like an animal in the dusk, so independent and objective verification might be a good idea. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > you misstate what I, and likely most other subjectivists believe: "If I > hear it, I hear it." i can then decide whether to spend the time/money > to address what i've heard. in the specific instance mentioned here, > there's no time difference, and the money (in storage) is negligible. Because of the inherently flawed listening tests that most subjectivists use to make the determination "If I hear it, I hear it", it is surprising to many, almost always a false claim. The statement "If I hear it, I hear it" ignores the very many kinds of audible illusions many that are common human experiences, for example. It is rooted in naivete and ignorance. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivist view of "if I > hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or > just extremely arrogant. you misstate what I, and likely most other subjectivists believe: "If I hear it, I hear it." i can then decide whether to spend the time/money to address what i've heard. in the specific instance mentioned here, there's no time difference, and the money (in storage) is negligible. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Mnyb wrote: > He he is it not another trend by the golden eared to not have sufficient > buffers and try make the PC behave as much as possible as a bad old CD > player and stream continiusly with very small buffers ? Interesting observation Mnyb. I really wonder who started this idea about small buffers or even shutting off all buffers and essentially polling the CPU to feed data. I commented on this weirdness with the 'JPLAY software back in 2013' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html) as this was the recommendation of "practitioners" of the software back then... You'd think that adding to CPU load (from something like <3% with decent buffering to >15% with tiny buffers when I tested) would "logically" increase "noise" and "jitter" given how concerned some folks seem to be about all this stuff in computer audio. I'm guessing they're still of that mindset these days. Of course, none of this made any audible difference to me nor measurable difference even with null testing. To add insult to injury, hilarious that JPLAY still had the 'same bug in 2015' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html) as reported in 2013 with 24/48 Kernel Streaming! Good deal at a mere 99Euros when foobar can be had for free :-). Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
.moving right along! In any case, I love my lossless collection which has close to 1000 hires albums (yes, a fortune). And played through standard STP and UTP cabling here to my streamer and DAC. But mainly - I enjoy my music. End. Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end - Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) - Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver & Gold, XLR where possible Audiotic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5912 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > do you enjoy the music more, constantly checking your audio privilege? I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is more to life than just audio... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Sure, doing what you are doing here, as an example. Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivists view of "if I hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or just extremely arrogant. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... Dunno, I would say that a near pathological focus on finding the imaginary flaws that need imaginary remedies doesn't strike me as a way of enjoying the actual music. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... but not more than music. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... Sure, doing what you are doing here, as an example. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivist view of "if I > hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or > just extremely arrogant. Don't know, not interested about, never said this and sure is not my mind. Sure if I heard it it's real for me using my system, if soemone else said he could hear it in other systems I suppose it could be real in a more generic way. You are the only one using absolute terms here, pretending to know "The Thruth", mocking others and putting words in others mouth. If I'm arrogant, how we should call you? Please let's start with the ABX, I'm here waiting for you... Shall we start the ABX? SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Sure if I heard it it's real for me using my system I guess that then comes down to your definition of "real". It still assumes your senses are infallible. You are the only one using absolute terms here, pretending to know "The Thruth". That is actually pretty much opposite to what I am actually saying. All I am asking is "how do you know what you think you know". > Please let's start with the ABX, I'm here waiting for you... What exactly is it that you are waiting for? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
philippe_44 wrote: > large part of my academic background is in correction codes theory ... But that only means you think you understand the theory. Science can't explain everything, the theory is only a theory anyway, you can't measure art, and music behaves differently from data. :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
arnyk wrote: > A theory that is easy to prove with sighted evaluations. Good luck > finding audible evidence of it by proper scientific means. > > Back in the days of 286s, CPUs may have actually been that limited in > terms of CPU power. > > In reality, there are many interruptions to the musical data flow at > some stages of processing. There are other standard features of audio > interfaces called buffers that prevent them from having audible effects. He he is it not another trend by the golden eared to not have sufficient buffers and try make the PC behave as much as possible as a bad old CD player and stream continiusly with very small buffers ? Very confused thinking it's not an idea I endorse . But typical of the backwards thinking they default to . Just like belt driven CD players ( yes they did/do exist another crackpot idea ) to make CD as LP as possible :) This can get to another level of comedy just like weird enough filter algorithms if you abuse the audio subsystem in some of the more flexible OS like Linux would it not be possible that someone really made it sound different :P in reality they broke it , but hey in their world different always equal better ... I do think ralphy joked about the tags , they are usually in the header or in weird cases last in the file and read once by the player in microseconds or as in LMS during scan not even at the same times as you listen Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > > > The reason why tagged files sound worse than untagged files is because > of the added load on the CPU that tagging presents. With an untagged wav > or aiff file the musical data flows uninterrupted, whereas with a tagged > wav or aiff file the CPU must interrupt the flow of the musical data to > read and process the tag information (data). This interruption happens > at regular intervals, hence the typewriter like sound that one hears, > provided of course that one is a highly trained, golden eared > audiophile. > A theory that is easy to prove with sighted evaluations. Good luck finding audible evidence of it by proper scientific means. Back in the days of 286s, CPUs may have actually been that limited in terms of CPU power. In reality, there are many interruptions to the musical data flow at some stages of processing. There are other standard features of audio interfaces called buffers that prevent them from having audible effects. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > My guess would be Apple TV. That said it is rather sad that the whole > LMS ecosystem is being basically ignored by high end manufacturers. On > the plus side I did read in the latest Stereophile that the Antipodes DX > Reference music server > (http://www.antipodesaudio.com/antipodes_music_servers.html) uses a > Linux/VortexBox/LMS software combination. However from what I could > gather from the review the Antipodes appears to be a very overpriced > single purpose computer with the ability to rip CDs and stream a few > internet music services. LMS is used to manage the music library that is > stored on the internal hard drives and to access the streaming music > services. Oh but it does use the "sanctioned" USB output so I guess that > makes it high end. One thing it is not is a music streamer. Yeah, a shame about LMS not adopted as much as it could. But Apple TV? Considering their stubbornness around not supporting FLAC natively for years now, I truly hope that either they change their ways (not likely) or something better comes around than depending on an unjustifiably close-minded company around something as simple as an open source format... Note that I'm not "against" Apple since my wife depends on the whole Mac/iPhone/iPad ecosystem for her work. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > i'm indifferent, although i'd be marginally happier if it weren't the > case, since my library would take up ~1/2 the space. Hey man, today's your lucky day then! Go compress some to FLAC and enjoy the same sound at 1/2 the space! No need to upgrade storage capacity for awhile, faster and easier to backup, and excellent tagging features of course... Everything to gain, nothing to lose. What's there to be indifferent about!? Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > In case you haven't being keeping up with the things in world of high > end audio it now seems that for some reason (my guess is lack of > advertising dollars) the Transporter is no longer a piece of high end > audio equipment. In addition it also now seems that the only two > "sanctioned" ways to "stream" computer based digital audio is via a > dedicated laptop or Mac Mini (this is really the only "sanctioned" way) > connected to an asynchronous USB DAC with a greater than $200 USB cable. > Why this is called "streaming" beats me. My guess on this development is > that the vast majority of high end audio streaming music players rely on > the worthless DLNA protocol for WiFi streaming and DLNA never works. So > a hard (wired) connection via USB is now the way forward (or is that > really backwards?). Sadly Ralph, I think DLNA is all we're gonna get in the forseeable future. Anyone know if there's actual development on anything else that could supplant this "universal" standard at some point? Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Archimago wrote: > Sadly Ralph, I think DLNA is all we're gonna get in the forseeable > future. > > Anyone know if there's actual development on anything else that could > supplant this "universal" standard at some point? My guess would be Apple TV. That said it is rather sad that the whole LMS ecosystem is being basically ignored by high end manufacturers. On the plus side I did read in the latest Stereophile that the Antipodes DX Reference music server (http://www.antipodesaudio.com/antipodes_music_servers.html) uses a Linux/VortexBox/LMS software combination. However from what I could gather from the review the Antipodes appears to be a very overpriced single purpose computer with the ability to rip CDs and stream a few internet music services. LMS is used to manage the music library that is stored on the internal hard drives and to access the streaming music services. Oh but it does use the "sanctioned" USB output so I guess that makes it high end. One thing it is not is a music streamer. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
philippe_44 wrote: > Just for curiosity, for you, if I stream a file from Paris to New York, > once in flac and once in wav and if that file is processed by LMS in New > York before being sent in PCM (both cases) to a transporter on the New > York kcal home network, will it sound different i've never done a WAV/FLAC comparison. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > transporter doesn't support USB. In case you haven't being keeping up with the things in world of high end audio it now seems that for some reason (my guess is lack of advertising dollars) the Transporter is no longer a piece of high end audio equipment. In addition it also now seems that the only two "sanctioned" ways to "stream" computer based digital audio is via a dedicated laptop or Mac Mini (this is really the only "sanctioned" way) connected to an asynchronous USB DAC with a greater than $200 USB cable. Why this is called "streaming" beats me. My guess on this development is that the vast majority of high end audio streaming music players rely on the worthless DLNA protocol for WiFi streaming and DLNA never works. So a hard (wired) connection via USB is now the way forward (or is that really backwards?). Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > Then rip and tag to Apple Lossless on my system, AIF sounds better. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > ripping/tagging FLAC on a Mac is challenging. Then rip and tag to Apple Lossless Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > on my system, AIF sounds better. Did you listen with your ears or your eyes? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Archimago wrote: > Hey man, today's your lucky day then! > > Go compress some to FLAC and enjoy the same sound at 1/2 the space! No > need to upgrade storage capacity for awhile, faster and easier to > backup, and excellent tagging features of course... > > Everything to gain, nothing to lose. What's there to be indifferent > about!? ripping/tagging FLAC on a Mac is challenging. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > If it makes you happy... i'm indifferent, although i'd be marginally happier if it weren't the case, since my library would take up ~1/2 the space. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I guess not - another difference is that I acknowledge and account for > mine. do you enjoy the music more, constantly checking your audio privilege? -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Unfortunately we all suffer from cognitive bias. i don't suffer from yours. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Audiotic wrote: > :-) > > I don't believe in differences between the lossless file formats. So > we're on the same page. I just wasn't sure on your post either - hey, us > "foreigners" might not always get the subtleties the english language > allows... :-) No problem! It's hard to convey the subtleties of the spoken word in written form regardless of the language. I do regret just a little bit the fact that you and I are on the same page with respect to audiophile nonsense since if you happened to be a true believer then I could have made up something to explain why tagged files sound worse than untagged files. Let's see how does this sound: The reason why tagged files sound worse than untagged files is because of the added load on the CPU that tagging presents. With an untagged wav or aiff file the musical data flows uninterrupted, whereas with a tagged wav or aiff file the CPU must interrupt the flow of the musical data to read and process the tag information (data). This interruption happens at regular intervals, hence the typewriter like sound that one hears, provided of course that one is a highly trained, golden eared audiophile. Because of this I now listen to only untagged wav files and in order to get the information that would be contained in a tagged file I use my iPhone to identify the music that is playing and read the information from my iPhone. Works great! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > i don't suffer from yours. I guess not - another difference is that I acknowledge and account for mine. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > on my system, AIF sounds better. Better than wav? I must confess that tagged wav or aiff files sound much worse than tagged flac or Apple lossless files. There is what sounds to me like a typewriter in the background. Please note that it is very faint and only someone with highly trained golden ears can hear it but nonetheless it is there and once one hears it the music becomes completely unlistenable. Here are my golden eared audiophile rankings for the various digital audio file and tagging combos: 1) Untagged wav or aiff - simply the best! 2) Untagged flac or Apple lossless - substantially worse than untagged wav/aiff but almost listenable. 3) Tagged flac or Apple lossless - boarding on painful and only passable as background music 4) Untagged 320 mp3 - why bother? 5) Tagged 320 mp3 - for kids only 6) Tagged wav or aiff - completely useless As unbelievable as it may appear, even high bit rate mp3 sounds way, way better than taqgged wav or aiff. :) ;) Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
And how could tagging influence the sound?? The tags are not in the audiostream. Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end - Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) - Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver & Gold, XLR where possible Audiotic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5912 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Did you listen with your ears or your eyes? i don't have synesthesia. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > i don't have synesthesia. Unfortunately we all suffer from cognitive bias. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Audiotic wrote: > And how could tagging influence the sound?? The tags are not in the > audiostream. I don't know how to properly answer your question since I don't know just much of all the other audiophile nonsense out there that you believe, in other words, are you one of those kool-aid drinking audiophiles or are you somewhat more reasonable. I meant my prior post as a joke and a good way to test the limits of audiophile belief in utter nonsense. What I do wonder is if something similar to that drivel had been written in one of the glossy pages audio magazines, would audiophiles still believe it? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > I don't know how to properly answer your question since I don't know > just much of all the other audiophile nonsense out there that you > believe, in other words, are you one of those kool-aid drinking > audiophiles or are you somewhat more reasonable. > > I meant my prior post as a joke and a good way to test the limits of > audiophile belief in utter nonsense. What I do wonder is if something > similar to that drivel had been written in one of the glossy pages audio > magazines, would audiophiles still believe it? :-) I don't believe in differences between the lossless file formats. So we're on the same page. I just wasn't sure on your post either - hey, us "foreigners" might not always get the subtleties the english language allows... :-) Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end - Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) - Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver & Gold, XLR where possible Audiotic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5912 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > yes, it does. If it makes you happy... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
philippe_44 wrote: > Just for curiosity, for you, if I stream a file from Paris to New York, > once in flac and once in wav and if that file is processed by LMS in New > York before being sent in PCM (both cases) to a transporter on the New > York kcal home network, will it sound different I think we have seen statements from some of the audiophile gurus to the effect that yes, it would sound different, but if you zip the file, it is protected from bit rot. Not sure of what they are smoking, but it seems to be pretty good stuff. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > yes, it does. Just for curiosity, for you, if I stream a file from Paris to New York, once in flac and once in wav and if that file is processed by LMS in New York before being sent in PCM (both cases) to a transporter on the New York kcal home network, will it sound different LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne (sort of) philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
philippe_44 wrote: > Just for curiosity, for you, if I stream a file from Paris to New York, > once in flac and once in wav and if that file is processed by LMS in New > York before being sent in PCM (both cases) to a transporter on the New > York kcal home network, will it sound different Everyone knows once a bit was french you can't get rid of this faggit accent. Easy to hear open minded. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Some might have misunderstood my question :) I'm not seeking for a response to the technical question (large part of my academic background is in correction codes theory ...), but I'm trying to gauge the "belief mindset" of who said that wav and flac are different and that aiff and apple lossless are different as well LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne (sort of) philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > yes, it does. Blasphemer! Heretic! You speak the language of the devil! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
arnyk wrote: > Brought to us by the magic of sighted evaluations. They must be magic since they conclusively prove that a $2000 USB cable sounds better than a $200 USB cable, which in turn sounds better than a $10 USB cable. Has to be magic! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > > this thread could just as well be titled "does aiff sound different than > Apple lossless" yes, it does. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
No it doesn't. Maybe unless you use a 1997 PC as source. Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end - Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) - Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver & Gold, XLR where possible Audiotic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5912 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > yes, it does. Brought to us by the magic of sighted evaluations. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Peter Galbavy wrote: > So, if I fill two bottles, one clear and the other green glass, from the > same tap - which one tastes better? 'Penn and Teller Water Bottle Survey' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKT4jvN4OE) But which type of water hose improves the taste the most? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
So, if I fill two bottles, one clear and the other green glass, from the same tap - which one tastes better? Peter Galbavy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32718 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
arnyk wrote: > It seems a shame that some seem capable of only personal attacks, logic > and reason have long escaped them in a storm of denial... Indeed. Unfortunately it seems that those who have been repeatedly been shown to be wrong only have two ways to respond - either man up and admit they were wrong, or resort to personal attacks and smoke screens. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > And what other forums would that be? The only ones I can think of right now are one for-profit computer audiophile site, and a certain Irish audiophile site. In both cases, the reason for being banned seems to be questioning the claims of one specific user. I leave it to the readers to guess who that user might be... :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > It seems a shame Julf only posts here now, his character having been > defiled at other forums. Help save the Julf. And what other forums would that be? My guess is that are several of the audio forums which rely on sponsor support. Say something negative about over priced cables and bingo your character gets defiled. No big mystery there. As I've stated over and over again this thread could just as well be titled "does aiff sound different than Apple lossless" but NO ONE dares question anything Apple, especially, for some reason, audiophiles. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > It seems a shame Julf only posts here now, his character having been > defiled at other forums. Help save the Julf. It seems a shame that some seem capable of only personal attacks, logic and reason have long escaped them in a storm of denial... arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
arnyk wrote: > It appears that you made a personal attack in this post: > > http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104227-Once-again-does-wav-sound-different-than-flac=829644=1#post829644 > > "Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? > Oh, yes...Always You." > > Key phrase: "Always you". > > You publicly defiled the character of Julf by characterizing him as > bullying you based on false authority (him). > > In fact Julf was making informal reference to well known and widely > accepted audio authorities. It seems a shame Julf only posts here now, his character having been defiled at other forums. Help save the Julf. Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/ SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > ...Please, next time, when people are asking you to open a new thread, > could you please do it yourself so others don't have to do it on your > behalf? No, sure I'm not going to do anything only becouse someone else want me to do it, are you? If and when I open a thread is becouse I want to discusse that matter, but in this case I did not and I've explicity asked yuo don't open this can of worm, did not I? You don't have to, you wanted, it's different and you did it becouse you are arrogant used to think you could do what ever you want with no respect yo other people. Here the matter is not if flac sound better than wav, It's my opinion and you are free to say whatever you want in order to dimostrate it's untrue, but the limit - in a polite discussion - is before personal attack, hit the sin, not the sinner... Sure this rule is not in you preffered list. All the better to you, but please ignore any of my eventual new post in any matter, here and in other forums, never discuss whit a stupid man (me, of course) people could misunderstand and think you are. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > > > Here the matter is not anymore if flac sound better than wav, It's my > opinion and you are free to say whatever you want in order to > demonstrate it's untrue, but the limit - in a polite discussion - is > before personal attack: hit the sin, not the sinner... Sure this rule is > not in you preffered list. > It appears that you made a personal attack in this post: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104227-Once-again-does-wav-sound-different-than-flac=829644=1#post829644 "Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? Oh, yes...Always You." Key phrase: "Always you". You publicly defiled the character of Julf by characterizing him as bullying you based on false authority (him). In fact Julf was making informal reference to well known and widely accepted audio authorities. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Yes, analog stages of DACs definitely differ, and some are more > susceptible to noise than others. But would that noise depend on the > data format? > > This is where science and engineering comes in. Let's take the two most > common "theories" (I'd rather call them "speculation") - 1) jitter is a > major factor in the resulting sound, and jitter can be affected by the > source and data format used, and 2) the source (and the data format > used) is affecting the DAC through electrical noise conducted from the > source to the DAC. > > The way the scientific method works is that you formulate tests, based > on your theories, that can validate or invalidate your theory. In the > case of jitter, DACs with ASRCs and fifo buffers should perform much > better than DACs without them (albeit the ones with ASRCs might have > other sound quality issues). Do we see a clear pattern of people > preferring DACs with ASRCs and buffers? Do they do better in listening > tests? In the case of electrical noise, do we find that systems using > optical connections generally sound better than systems using electrical > connections? > > I think the answer to both questions is "no". > > It is good to have an open mind, but that doesn't mean abandoning > scientific thinking in favour of faith and dogma. Again, I completely agree with you and I'm with you saying that people claiming "the problem come from here and then the solution is my fabulous isolator" has to prove that: a. The theory is right. b. the solution is effective. If not, is just marketing. Then I loose you, when you say that since we don't have a clear pattern in people preferring DACs with better isolations, we should argue that isolation does not have any matter in sound quality. In main stream market, sound quaility is not the priority, price (and cost reduction) is for sure a more important factor, we are still talking about absolute sond quality or about 'good enougth' objects? In the latter case, I don't think anyone is taking care of the little differences we are talking about... Has ever market pattern demostrate something other than people behaivours is more sensitive to fashion than quality? Back on topic. Again, I'm not the one who could formulate a theory on how and why in some systems and for some people flac do sund different than wav, so I don't have to prove anything in this regard, no matter how long you'll keep putting someothers words in my mouth, I've just pointed out that: 1. In perception matters the only evidence possible is someone sayng "I feel it". 2. The fact one could not explain how and why does not imply it could not feel it. 3. There is no 'scientific' demostrated thruth that 'is impossible'. 4. We have measurement that say difference are in place,the fact they are considerer 'too little to be audible' is opinable. 5. There are few theory (some of witch are the ones you pointed above) that try to explain how this could happen. Points from 1 to 4 don't need any of the theory at 5 to be true, hope is clear. About 5, I personally think - but I'm not an expert professional in that matter - that John Swenson theory on software related Jitter could be somehow corresponding to truth, he provided evidences, both measures and listening tests, many others had great results working on galvanic isolation and power supply. Is that dogma and faith? I know who JS and others are, please, could you explain what's your merits to say that? Again, you looks to me a little arrogant... SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > There is no single criteria - some evidence is strong, some evidence is > weak, but any evidence is better than no evidence at all. You present > your evidence, others question it and try to replicate it - if questions > and concerns are addressed, and others reach similar results, then the > evidence gains credibility. Who is deciding witch one is strong or weak? The only evidence about perception one could give is "I fell" or "I can't feel". The last is weak, becouse if you - or eve majority cant' fells something, is non that it does not exists... You will never prove something this way, so better stop discussing it. But, wait, Mussolini went famous by it's moto: "God strike me, if there is one" proving to Italians that god does not exists... Point here become: Shall we trust people saying they fell something? I'm open minded and firm believer that one is honest until proved he is not and even more, also if you have evidence that someone sometime lie, this not mean he will always lie or is lying in this special matter. You know, I'm liar (how could you say I always lie then...). In any case, you moved from evidence matter to people reliability and I don't think You, me and people in this forum is allowed to discuss people reliability, is not so fair. Other than this, You are not looking for evidences at all here, if was like that you just asked if someone could feel differences, retaining yourself by moking people reporting positive result and asking them to demostrate is possible... This witch-hunt climax is not confortable and obviously prevent people to produce evidences, this is why I first asked not to open this can of worms, as an example, not so difficult to understand why. So what? I first admit that not all the people, not in all the systems and not in any circumstance heard differences betwen flac and wav, but i trust someone in some systems in some circumstance could, just becouse they (and I with them) report to. If and how it could take place in reality is another story and has nothing to do with evidences about people 'feeling' it. This is the STRONG point I would like you understand. Any why and how theory could result wrong and change in years, but this does not means 'evidence' are false, in any matter. Hope is clear. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Who is deciding witch one is strong or weak? We all do. If there is enough evidence, stuff becomes "accepted fact". > The only evidence about perception one could give is "I fell" or "I > can't feel". The last is weak, becouse if you - or eve majority cant' > fells something, is non that it does not exists... You will never prove > something this way, so better stop discussing it. Just because we can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't prove that it exists. If you consistently fail to show any evidence that something exists, and accepted knowledge is indicating it shouldn't exist, why should we believe it exists? Do you believe in unicorns? I can't prove they don't exist... > I'm open minded and firm believer that one is honest until proved he is > not and even more, also if you have evidence that someone sometime lie, > this not mean he will always lie or is lying in this special matter. > > You know, I'm liar (how could you say I always lie then...). > > In any case, you moved from evidence matter to people reliability and I > don't think You, me and people in this forum is allowed to discuss > people reliability, is not so fair. No, this is not about necessarily suspecting people of lying (unless you count lying to yourself). I am convinced most people (we are not talking about snake oil vendors here) truly believe they are hearing the differences they claim they are hearing. But should they blindly believe what they think their senses are saying? Which of the two horizontal lines is shorter? 18793 > Other than this, You are not looking for evidences at all here, if was > like that you just asked if someone could feel differences, retaining > yourself by moking people reporting positive result and asking them to > demostrate is possible... > > This witch-hunt climax is not confortable and obviously prevent people > to produce evidences, this is why I first asked not to open this can of > worms, as an example, not so difficult to understand why. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence". Audio technology is the result of engineering. Engineering is applied science. Not voodoo. You can't design a decent DAC just by throwing resistors in the air and watch how they land. OK, you *can* "design" a decent DAC by buying a suitable chip or board, inserting it in a "aircraft-grade virgin titanium" box and salting it with buzzwords, but that is a different story... > I first admit that not all the people, not in all the systems and not in > any circumstance heard differences betwen flac and wav, but i trust > someone in some systems in some circumstance could, just becouse they > (and I with them) report to. And I trust the Loch Ness monster exists, because people have reported seeing it/him/her. > Any why and how theory could result wrong and change in years, but this > does not means 'evidence' are false, in any matter. Are we talking about evidence, or "evidence"? Real evidence is subject to peer review and constant criticism - and that is a good thing. That is really what scientists mean when they talk about keeping an open mind. Theories are updated based on *validated* evidence, not anecdotes and hearsay. +---+ |Filename: ponzo-illusion-cortex-research.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18793| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Then I loose you, when you say that since we don't have a clear pattern > in people preferring DACs with better isolations, we should argue that > isolation does not have any matter in sound quality. > > In main stream market, sound quaility is not the priority, price (and > cost reduction) is for sure a more important factor, we are still > talking about absolute sond quality or about 'good enougth' objects? In > the latter case, I don't think anyone is taking care of the little > differences we are talking about... > > Has ever market pattern demostrate something other than people > behaivours is more sensitive to fashion than quality? I wasn't talking about the mainstream market. Have we seen any evidence from *audiophile* listening tests that *discerning listeners* prefer a) isolation from jitter (buffers and ASRCs) b) electrical noise? > Again, I'm not the one who could formulate a theory on how and why in > some systems and for some people flac do sund different than wav, so I > don't have to prove anything in this regard, no matter how long you'll > keep putting someothers words in my mouth You don't have to prove anything, but if you state "I hear a difference", without any supporting evidence, the only thing we can conclude is that you do believe you can hear a difference. It really doesn't tell us anything more than that. > 1. In perception matters the only evidence possible is someone sayng "I > feel it". I guess you missed the part where I pointed out that that is not true. Someone saying "I hear it" tells us what they *believe* they hear., but double-blind ABX can actually verify if they actually can hear a difference. > 2. The fact one could not explain how and why does not imply it could > not feel it. But in this case we have perfectly valid explanations for why you might think you hear something - but you are asking us to ignore the most plausible explanation (cognitive bias) and go for an explanation (theory) that has no evidence supporting it. There are simple experiments which can tell us which explanation is more valid/likely, but you choose to ignore them. I would call that arrogant. > 3. There is no 'scientific' demostrated thruth that 'is impossible'. No. There is simply a scientific process that you are ignoring. I suggest reading a 101 course in Theory of Knowledge. > 4. We have measurement that say difference are in place,the fact they > are considerer 'too little to be audible' is opinable. >From archimagos summary, it appears he disagrees with you. > Is that dogma and faith? I know who JS and others are, please, could you > explain what's your merits to say that? Yes, relying on somebody's merits and qualifications to determine if what they say is true or not is dogma and faith in authority. My "merits" are purely an academic education in electronics and digital systems, and something like 35 years of experience in audio and digital systems. But that really shouldn't have any bearing on the case. Either unicorns exist or they don't - just because the Pope declares them to exist (or not) doesn't prove anything. > Again, you looks to me a little arrogant... Real arrogance would be to quote Dilbert and state "Sometimes it is better if the aquarium owner doesn't explain to the turtle how the filtration system works". But jokes aside, I think the ultimate arrogance is assuming your own senses are infallible guides to the truth, and refusing to question your assumptions. Let's go back to the basic premise - you believe that file formats could make an audible difference. How do you suggest we can test that assumption in a repeatable, verifiable way? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Wombat wrote: > With audio you can claim anything especialy on the internet and always > find people daydreaming the same. > Now add terms "uncompressed" and "compressed" and you have a perfect > trigger. > No surprise. And of course there are always the fancy magazines with glossy pages and lots slick advertising. I think the old saying goes something like "one lies and the other one swears to it". marcoc1712 wrote: > Is that dogma and faith? I know who JS and others are, please, could you > explain what's your merits to say that? Ah the first mention of the sainted JS (only took until post #91). The less said about the rise and fall of JS, the better. However, as usual, Mr. Dylan said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EKqQWPjyo Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Sure, but here is not the same, I say I heard it and I'm not the only > one, Again what more evidence you need to accept we feel it (not on why > and how), please be clear! With audio you can claim anything especialy on the internet and always find people daydreaming the same. Now add terms "uncompressed" and "compressed" and you have a perfect trigger. No surprise. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Jitter means nothing to you? Rurmor coming by interferences?...The final > stage of a dac Is nothing different from any analog device in that > matter. All of those things are of course influences that would of course be held constant in any logical, scientific comparison. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > And of course there are always the fancy magazines with glossy pages and > lots slick advertising. I think the old saying goes something like "one > lies and the other one swears to it". > > > > Ah the first mention of the sainted JS (only took until post #91). The > less said about the rise and fall of JS, the better. However, as usual, > Mr. Dylan said it best: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EKqQWPjyo Was Already mentioned in one of the first post in the THD were the story started first... SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? > Oh, yes...Always You. No, not me at all, except as a tiny part of the scientific and engineering community. The people who design the gear you use. > Sure, but here is not the same, I say I heard it and I'm not the only > one, Again what more evidence you need to accept we feel it (not on why > and how), please be clear! The established gold standard is properly controlled, double-blind testing. The best standards are ITU-R BS.1116 and BS.1534. Both are definitely worth reading. > Why not, if you could hear a 40Hz pedal in your little room is becouse > of it. Try to measure and detect the 40Hz note in sound... The fact your > instruments could not detect it means is not there? > > The fact is that IS in the music BUT NOT in the sound (where music is > the perceived message ans sound is the phisical medium) becouse masking > take effects only in the uman brain. If it is not there it is not there. Just like there is a lot of stuff in a mp3 file that isn't there, but your ear fills in. If it isn't in the data, and it isn't in the sound wave that comes from your speaker, it isn't physically there. And that is not splitting hairs - it is a very important design parameter for the sound system that does or does not have to reproduce the 40 Hz signal - and in this case we don't, as it doesn't have to be there for your ear-brain combination to *think* that it is hearing a 40 Hz tone. It isn't. It is generating the perception in the brain. > The "errror" is in the instruments that don't look at the particular > combination of sounds being played that origin the 40Hz note or in my > brain? If for you is in my brain, ok, stop here. Isn't saying "if you don't agree with me, stop here" somewhat arrogant? If you perceive something that isn't physically there, how is it *not* "in your brain"? > Again and again and again... What evidence could someone give of his > perception other than to say I could feel it? Again and again and again, there are lots of test methods, such as double-blind ABX, that can verify if you really can perceive a difference. > Please be honest and clear!!! You want me to say I could not heard any > differences, but I can't if I want to be honest. But the question you should ask yourself (unless you arrogantly believe your senses are infallible) is "but how do I know the differences are real?" > Then You are judging about other people reliability, not evidences Only to the extent that I think someone who accepts the existence of the Loch Ness monster purely on the basis of somebody saying so, whoever the person, is rather gullible. > Again, just You need to change the theories first than accept the > evidence that some phenomenon could take place. First I need proof that our current theories don't work. > Actual thoeries on digital sound reproduction (that don't really care if > flac sound the same of wav at the analog output and why, by the way) are > valid since someone will eventually demostrate something different, but > this not means we could not accept and then investigate that some people > claim to hear some difference and they are not crazy. You are making the rather arrogant assumption that having conceptual biases (we all have them) means people are "crazy". I am all for investigating the claims - that is exactly what I am trying to advocate. How do *you* suggest we investigate them? > More and Again, I'm not here to demostrate anything other than state I - > and others - could hear some difference, are this anecdotes and hearsay? Yes - unless you provide some *verifiable* evidence. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > It's like the 3 Billy Goats Gruff story. Thanks for dropping in and providing the troll part! "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > We all do. If there is enough evidence, stuff becomes "accepted fact". Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? Oh, yes...Always You. Julf wrote: > Just because we can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't prove > that it exists. Sure, but here is not the same, I say I heard it and I'm not the only one, Again what more evidence you need to accept we feel it (not on why and how), please be clear! Julf wrote: > ... > Which of the two horizontal lines is shorter? Then we are, psycoacusitical... Why not, if you could hear a 40Hz pedal in your little room is becouse of it. Try to measure and detect the 40Hz note in sound... The fact your instruments could not detect it means is not there? The fact is that IS in the music BUT NOT in the sound (where music is the perceived message ans sound is the phisical medium) becouse masking take effects only in the uman brain. The "errror" is in the instruments that don't look at the particular combination of sounds being played that origin the 40Hz note or in my brain? If for you is in my brain, ok, stop here. Julf wrote: > Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence Again and again and again... What evidence could someone give of his perception other than to say I could feel it? I'm not talking about HOW to build a DAC, it's only you keep confusing things. Please be honest and clear!!! You want me to say I could not heard any differences, but I can't if I want to be honest. Julf wrote: > And I trust the Loch Ness monster exists, because people have reported > seeing it/him/her. Then You are judging about other people reliability, not evidences, as I was pointing out before, be honest and admit this, it's quite unfair but sure you are suppose do be better than me. That's all we are talking about... Julf wrote: > Theories are updated based on *validated* evidence, not anecdotes and > hearsay. Again, just You need to change the theories first than accept the evidence that some phenomenon could take place. Actual thoeries on digital sound reproduction (that don't really care if flac sound the same of wav at the analog output and why, by the way) are valid since someone will eventually demostrate something different, but this not means we could not accept and then investigate that some people claim to hear some difference and they are not crazy. You dangerously exchange the theory that explain reality with the reality itself! Sky will not fall on your head just becouse someone demostate it could, but if it has to it will, also if nobody will demostrate it could before... More and Again, I'm not here to demostrate anything other than state I - and others - could hear some difference, are this anecdotes and hearsay? SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? > Oh, yes...Always You. > > > > > Sure, but here is not the same, I say I heard it and I'm not the only > one, Again what more evidence you need to accept we feel it (not on why > and how), please be clear! > > > > > Then we are, psycoacusitical... Why not, if you could hear a 40Hz pedal > in your little room is becouse of it. Try to measure and detect the 40Hz > note in sound... The fact your instruments could not detect it means is > not there? > > The fact is that IS in the music BUT NOT in the sound (where music is > the perceived message ans sound is the phisical medium) becouse masking > take effects only in the uman brain. > > The "errror" is in the instruments that don't look at the particular > combination of sounds being played that origin the 40Hz note or in my > brain? If for you is in my brain, ok, stop here. > > > > Again and again and again... What evidence could someone give of his > perception other than to say I could feel it? I'm not talking about HOW > to build a DAC, it's only you keep confusing things. > > Please be honest and clear!!! You want me to say I could not heard any > differences, but I can't if I want to be honest. > > > > Then You are judging about other people reliability, not evidences, as I > was pointing out before, be honest and admit this, it's quite unfair but > sure you are suppose do be better than me. That's all we are talking > about... > > > > Again, just You need to change the theories first than accept the > evidence that some phenomenon could take place. > > Actual thoeries on digital sound reproduction (that don't really care if > flac sound the same of wav at the analog output and why, by the way) are > valid since someone will eventually demostrate something different, but > this not means we could not accept and then investigate that some people > claim to hear some difference and they are not crazy. > > You dangerously exchange the theory that explain reality with the > reality itself! > > Sky will not fall on your head just becouse someone demostate it could, > but if it has to it will, also if nobody will demostrate it could > before... > > More and Again, I'm not here to demostrate anything other than state I - > and others - could hear some difference, are this anecdotes and hearsay? It's like the 3 Billy Goats Gruff story. Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/ SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
