Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 2 Feb 2012, at 15:36, cliveb wrote: cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: You can transfer a 45 minute LP in 15 minutes? That's a neat trick. Surely TheLastMan means that it takes an extra 15 mins on top of the time to do the actual recording. Clearly, in which case by setting his figure of 15 minutes against mine of 3 to 4 hours he was, for his own purpose, failing to compare like with like, which is what I was pointing out. His figure was only for post processing. Mine was for the whole process from the moment I selected the record to transfer to the last full stop at the end of tagging. It seemed to me rather strange - one might almost say wilful - to juxtapose the two figures without acknowledgement of that fact. My apologies if that was unclear, but I'd much prefer light heartedly to use a little wit and indirection to counter a fallacy - and possibly raise a laugh in the process - than plod clumsily through some tedious step by step rebuttal, (which would in any case to have expended more time and energy on the point than it deserved), unusual though this approach might be on an audiophile list. cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: It tends to take me 45 minutes, plus the time it takes to clean, set levels (often needing a complete dry run through in itself, watching the meters all the time, if I'm dealing with unfamiliar music on a disc I've not previously heard) Assuming you're using a decent modern soundcard its noise floor will be so far below that of the vinyl that you have heaps of headroom available. Therefore you can afford to be very conservative when setting levels and normalise later. So no need for a dry run, which will save you 45 mins. Thanks for the suggestion, but as far as I remember, despite a very decent ADC, that was not my experience with those of the classical recordings that I was transferring that have an extremely wide dynamic range. I'll experiment again next time I have a session, though, and pray I'm wrong. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 2 Feb 2012, at 18:33, TheLastMan wrote: cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: Automatic track division tends to be very dodgy indeed with classical - the bulk of my music. I'll try VinylStudio again and see if it works now, but it certainly didn't last time. You are right, track breaks tend to be a lot less obvious in classical music. As I stated in my post, I don't bother to record classical LPs. Yes, you did state that, which is why I was making the point that our experience and requirements - and the experience and requirements in general of those contemplating transferring LPs to hard disc - differ. I try and buy an appropriate CD. With classical music I am not worried too much about the particular performance of a work, as long as there is at least one decent performance on CD. I find that most of the renowned historical performances are on CD anyway. If you are looking for obscure classical music tag data then I doubt you will find VinylStudio any better than before. A huge range lies between the obvious classic recordings of great, popular works, (most of which have indeed been transferred) and obscure classical music. What I've got is a good, comprehensive, but not exceptional, collection by a knowledgeable music lover, which is only occasionally abstruse, (and then, illuminatingly so) dating between 1960 or so and 1991. My aim is to preserve, in a useable digital reference archive, the integrity of that collection, (including that of the individual LPs, very few of which have been released in their original form on CD) which in itself throws a light of interest to me personally on the related professional field in which the collector was distinguished. These databases are very much geared up to popular music formats. Yes, indeed, That's why I said that they are no use to me, and was warning that the same might be true for others who might be contemplating transferring classical LPs. Others will have different experience and requirements. I use my own peculiar and very personal tagging scheme for classical CDs which probably would not suit anybody else anyway. Likewise. Re-tagging the inconsistent and even absurd offerings of CDDB so that they are consistent and logical enough to use with LMS in itself takes hours - although not as many as tagging from scratch. You can transfer a 45 minute LP in 15 minutes?If I were being uncharitable, I might accuse you of wilful misunderstanding! I, of course, mean 15 minutes on top of the time needed to record the album, as I stated clearly in my previous post on this thread. If I were being uncharitable, I might accuse you of wilfully failing to take the point I was light-heartedly making here: that your 15 minutes and my 3-4 hours refer to different things, although that is not how it appeared in the way you used the figures in juxtaposition, and in opposition. I find that with pop/rock I can set levels adequately by sampling a minute or two from one or two obviously loud tracks. I have got better at this with practice. All the stuff I'm transferring is the stuff with which you don't bother. It is all acoustic. There is no way round doing it because none of it is issued on CD. Fair enough. It is not that I don't bother it is more that my collection contains very little music that has not been released on CD. My apologies. I misread that part of your previous post in which, on re-reading, you appear to be saying that you didn't bother post-processing classical or quiet acoustic folk music. However, you did subsequently also repeat in the post to which I was replying As I stated in my post, I don't bother to record classical LPs. which made me for some reason think that it meant that you don't bother to record classical LPs, and then to use that phrase in my reply. I am sorry if you found this in some way derogatory. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cunobelinus;688319 Wrote: On 2 Feb 2012, at 15:36, cliveb wrote: Assuming you're using a decent modern soundcard its noise floor will be so far below that of the vinyl that you have heaps of headroom available. Therefore you can afford to be very conservative when setting levels and normalise later. So no need for a dry run, which will save you 45 mins. Thanks for the suggestion, but as far as I remember, despite a very decent ADC, that was not my experience with those of the classical recordings that I was transferring that have an extremely wide dynamic range. I'll experiment again next time I have a session, though, and pray I'm wrong. Well, just because the music is well-recorded classical does not alter the fact that vinyl LPs have a maximum dynamic range around the 60dB mark - perhaps 70dB for a pristine audiophile pressing with a following wind. Modern soundcards routinely achieve noise floors below -90dB. (Even my modest M-Audio AP2496, which must be well over 5 years old, achieves about -93dB). Using such a soundcard, you can safely record LPs at a peak level down around -12dB and the vinyl surface noise will still overwhelm the soundcard's noise floor. My recommendation is to visually inspect the LP to find what looks to be the loudest section, then set levels to peak at about -9dB on that section. That still gives you a decent amount of headroom for surprise peaks. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 3 Feb 2012, at 12:22, cliveb wrote: Well, just because the music is well-recorded classical does not alter the fact that vinyl LPs have a maximum dynamic range around the 60dB mark - perhaps 70dB for a pristine audiophile pressing with a following wind. Modern soundcards routinely achieve noise floors below -90dB. (Even my modest M-Audio AP2496, which must be well over 5 years old, achieves about -93dB). Using such a soundcard, you can safely record LPs at a peak level down around -12dB and the vinyl surface noise will still overwhelm the soundcard's noise floor. My recommendation is to visually inspect the LP to find what looks to be the loudest section, then set levels to peak at about -9dB on that section. That still gives you a decent amount of headroom for surprise peaks. That's what I usually do, saving the -9dB suggestion, which may well be very useful. I have been caught out just visually inspecting, but that might well make the difference. I'll try it with the next batch. Thank you! (My M-Audio is definitely over 5 years old, too, incidentally). ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cliveb;688331 Wrote: Well, just because the music is well-recorded classical does not alter the fact that vinyl LPs have a maximum dynamic range around the 60dB mark - perhaps 70dB for a pristine audiophile pressing with a following wind. Modern soundcards routinely achieve noise floors below -90dB. (Even my modest M-Audio AP2496, which must be well over 5 years old, achieves about -93dB). Using such a soundcard, you can safely record LPs at a peak level down around -12dB and the vinyl surface noise will still overwhelm the soundcard's noise floor. My recommendation is to visually inspect the LP to find what looks to be the loudest section, then set levels to peak at about -9dB on that section. That still gives you a decent amount of headroom for surprise peaks. Yep, that is pretty much how I do it too. One of the facilities of VinylStudio is that it counts clips in your recording as you go along. As I usually listen to the music as it is recording I am aware of any clips and can make a quick fine adjustments on the fly. I am not usually worried if I have one or two clips in a recording. If I have the basic level about right they are usually the very peak of a transient of a couple of milliseconds and no distortion is audible. I think the misunderstandings between myself and Cunobelinus is that he and you digitise precious recordings that are not available any other way. Because of that you are both taking an appropriately diligent and serious approach. For me the process of digitising my LPs started as a casual experiment but quickly became just added on to a process of rediscovering the older parts of my music collection. Without that extra motivation I doubt I would have got past recording the first 3 or 4 discs. However, as I am listening to the music anyway, I might as well record it at the same time and save myself the cost of buying the CD. For instance last night I listened to, and recorded, Rickie Lee Jones The Magazine. I remember playing it avidly for a few months after I bought it in 1984 but I don't think it has been out of its sleeve since I moved to London in 1989. It was pretty pristine so I just manually removed 3 pops at the start of one of the tracks but otherwise dumped it straight into FLAC files. The Discogs database via VinylStudio had no trouble finding tag data with track times and cover art came from Amazon. Processing time was about 6 minutes setting track breaks, 5 minutes removing the three pops and 40 seconds to save the FLAC files. Last week I played Donald Fagen's Nightfly and Kamakiriad. Although Kamakiriad was fine, I had played Nightfly to death in the past and the disc showed it. There was no visible damage or grime, but a lot of intrusive clicks and pops. After trying to repair the surface noise in the first track I got bored, dumped the computer WAV file and ordered the CD for £4.50 from Amazon. In the meantime I am listening to it on Napster. Brilliant album! -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheLastMan;688345 Wrote: One of the facilities of VinylStudio is that it counts clips in your recording as you go along. Of course once the signal is digitised, there is no way to know for sure if it has been clipped - all you can do is apply some kind of rule such as 4 or more consecutive full scale samples is probably a clip. Does VinylStudio allow you to parameterise this? For example, some older soundcards (eg. the Creative ones based on the Ensoniq 137x chipset) have some sort of analgue saturation/clipping at about -2dBFS, and the samples delivered are not all at the same level. So to detect clipping through a soundcard like that, you need to be able to set a threshold level. TheLastMan;688345 Wrote: I think the misunderstandings between myself and Cunobelinus is that he and you digitise precious recordings that are not available any other way. I can't speak for Cunobelinus, but I started out doing this in order to digitise LPs that were unavailable or unaffordable on CD. Then after a while I found I was enjoying the process, so I began transferring some LPs that were on CD but were not that essential to me. But as a general rule, I do buy the CD unless I know it's a poor transfer. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cliveb;688379 Wrote: Of course once the signal is digitised, there is no way to know for sure if it has been clippedTrue. However I am usually aware of when the clipping takes place and a pretty good idea where in the track it is. I have never let a recording go grossly into clipping. If I have let a clip through it is usually percussion, something like a single kick drum beat, just tipping over the top. A tweak on the Naim's volume control usually stops further problems. I have never felt the need to identify the clips after the event. If I thought I needed to do that I would just re-record the offending track at a lower level. -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cunobelinus;687552 Wrote: The process is a chore - times about 20 compared with ripping CDs, not least because of the manual entry, without the aid of any online database, of all the tags, and because it's not a process you can leave to itself, like CD rips.You can make it shorter if you are prepared to use simpler software that finds track breaks and tag information automatically. *'VinylStudio' (http://www.alpinesoft.co.uk/VinylStudio/screenshots.aspx)* gives access to all the usual tagging databases *while the LP is recording* and adds the data to your FLAC, OGG or MP3 files automatically. All you do is enter the artist and album name and it finds the track information and album art. It also detects breaks between tracks either through the silences or using the timing information that usually comes with the tags. A bit of fine adjustments of the track breaks is usually necessary but it has very simple tools for doing that. If you don't do any de-clicking the whole process only takes 5-10 minutes on top of recording the LP. And then there's the cleaning beforehand, which seems to me to be greatly preferable to digital noise removal because it doesn't in any way risk the sound of the recording, but which takes an age. I don't usually clean my disks as I find very little benefit. Very occasionally, with an obviously grubby record, I simply rub washing up detergent (Fairy or similar) into the face of the disk with my fingers and then carefully rinse off under the tap - making sure not to get the central label damp. I have always been -very- careful about the care of my LPs. It helps that the UK is a fairly damp place so there is rarely a problem with static electricity attracting dust. The quality and type of cartridge and stylus plays its part. The ATOC9 uses a fine line stylus that digs deep into the groove. This means it tends to read the signal further down the groove which has not been damaged by previous styli. It has a larger contact area so does not distort the vinyl and that reduces wear. It also sticks to the track like an F1 car! It is a revelation on inner tracks - where once there was distortion now there is none. No mis-tracking means less groove damage. Finally, a really good turntable and tonearm will provide a much higher dynamic range signal making surface noise much less obvious - but you seem to have that sorted. I am surprised at your combination of Technics and SME V. I would have thought a highly rigid, high mass arm like the SME would be better suited to a rigid belt drive suspended sub-chassis turntable. Have you looked at the SME turntables? ...if an LP has been issued as a CD, I buy that rather than rip the LP. There is no post processing other than topping, tailing, splitting and tagging - and it still takes the best part of four hours per (classical) LP including the tagging. Four hours!?! I give up if it takes me more than 15 minutes!! I only go through this process with pop, rock and jazz that are generally loud. I do not bother with classical or quiet acoustic folk music where surface noise can be more intrusive. Also classical CD recordings are usually much better than you find with recent pop/rock CD reissues. There is not the same compression and loudness wars going on with classical CDs. I am very suspicious of recent digitally remastered re-issues of albums from the 1970s - 1990s. I prefer to buy the original CDs second hand which are probably more faithful to the vinyl version. -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheLastMan;688020 Wrote: I find a few minor crackles between tracks strangely comforting in a nostalgic kind of way. As long as there are no loud pops I rarely notice surface noise when playing the music through speakers (at least with pop, rock and jazz). If there is enough to be annoying I just buy the CD. Different people obviously have different thresholds for annoyance wrt. surface noise. I remember way back in the 1980s I attended an open day at Naim's Salisbury factory, and it included a demo of their new SBL speakers. They put on a record (using a Linn LP12) and I was absolutely gob-smacked that they considered the crackle-fest which emerged as appropriate for a professional demo. And yet there were others in the room who seemed able to ignore it. I'm not talking about a bit of minor noise - it was like one of the musicians was using bacon in a frying pan as his instrument! -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 2 Feb 2012, at 10:52, TheLastMan wrote: You can make it shorter if you are prepared to use simpler software that finds track breaks and tag information automatically. Audacity and Amadeus Pro are about as simple as it gets! I suspect that you mean more complex software that makes the process simpler! *'VinylStudio' (http://www.alpinesoft.co.uk/VinylStudio/screenshots.aspx)* gives access to all the usual tagging databases *while the LP is recording* and adds the data to your FLAC, OGG or MP3 files automatically. Very useful reminder. I'd forgotten I'd tried VinylStudio. Thank you. It is some time now since I did any transferring, and it's obviously progressed a lot since I last looked at it. (I can't even remember now whether it was for Mac when I did, or whether it handled Aiff and ALAC). However, there would have to be a very good classical database indeed in order to enable this. It would need to include classical LPs going back to the 1960s, many of which have never been transferred to CD, or which have been issued only as filleted and repackaged transfers with missing tracks, extra tracks, amalgamation of tracks from several different LPs and so on. Last time I checked, it didn't exist and tagging on all the discs I had chosen to transfer (because I couldn't buy the CD) had to be completely manual. All you do is enter the artist and album name and it finds the track information and album art. It also detects breaks between tracks either through the silences or using the timing information that usually comes with the tags. A bit of fine adjustments of the track breaks is usually necessary but it has very simple tools for doing that. Automatic track division tends to be very dodgy indeed with classical - the bulk of my music. I'll try VinylStudio again and see if it works now, but it certainly didn't last time. If you don't do any de-clicking the whole process only takes 5-10 minutes on top of recording the LP. I very rarely de-click, and never noise reduce. I clean. snip I am surprised at your combination of Technics and SME V. I would have thought a highly rigid, high mass arm like the SME would be better suited to a rigid belt drive suspended sub-chassis turntable. Have you looked at the SME turntables? Yes. I do not need to spend more than, or use a setup different from, this. The combination I have is better than my ears. ...if an LP has been issued as a CD, I buy that rather than rip the LP. There is no post processing other than topping, tailing, splitting and tagging - and it still takes the best part of four hours per (classical) LP including the tagging. Four hours!?! I give up if it takes me more than 15 minutes!! You can transfer a 45 minute LP in 15 minutes? That's a neat trick. It tends to take me 45 minutes, plus the time it takes to clean, set levels (often needing a complete dry run through in itself, watching the meters all the time, if I'm dealing with unfamiliar music on a disc I've not previously heard), run/record, divide, top, tail, and tag. I only go through this process with pop, rock and jazz that are generally loud. I do not bother with classical or quiet acoustic folk music where surface noise can be more intrusive. Also classical CD recordings are usually much better than you find with recent pop/rock CD reissues. There is not the same compression and loudness wars going on with classical CDs. That's the difference, then. All the stuff I'm transferring is the stuff with which you don't bother. It is all acoustic. There is no way round doing it because none of it is issued on CD. My collection of amplified music is, on the other hand, almost all - with a few exceptions - on CD. These were either bought when the original LPs were first transferred and issued in the new format, or were always CD only. I am very suspicious of recent digitally remastered re-issues of albums from the 1970s - 1990s. I prefer to buy the original CDs second hand which are probably more faithful to the vinyl version. I don't use remasters if I can help it, either. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Vinyl noise annoys the crap out of me. I manually clean everything that I care about. I have a few bootleg LPs that are only worth an automatic declicking. What annoys me more is when you hear clicks and noises on modern accurately ripped CDs, where is the quality control? It's not often but still happens. LOL -- Jeff Flowerday Jeff Flowerday's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cliveb;687573 Wrote: Vinyl surface noise (apart from big clicks) didn't bother me either back then, but once I started using CD it did begin to annoy me.I find a few minor crackles between tracks strangely comforting in a nostalgic kind of way. As long as there are no loud pops I rarely notice surface noise when playing the music through speakers (at least with pop, rock and jazz). If there is enough to be annoying I just buy the CD. -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: Automatic track division tends to be very dodgy indeed with classical - the bulk of my music. I'll try VinylStudio again and see if it works now, but it certainly didn't last time. You are right, track breaks tend to be a lot less obvious in classical music. As I stated in my post, I don't bother to record classical LPs. I try and buy an appropriate CD. With classical music I am not worried too much about the particular performance of a work, as long as there is at least one decent performance on CD. I find that most of the renowned historical performances are on CD anyway. If you are looking for obscure classical music tag data then I doubt you will find VinylStudio any better than before. These databases are very much geared up to popular music formats. I use my own peculiar and very personal tagging scheme for classical CDs which probably would not suit anybody else anyway. You can transfer a 45 minute LP in 15 minutes?If I were being uncharitable, I might accuse you of wilful misunderstanding! I, of course, mean 15 minutes on top of the time needed to record the album, as I stated clearly in my previous post on this thread. I find that with pop/rock I can set levels adequately by sampling a minute or two from one or two obviously loud tracks. I have got better at this with practice. All the stuff I'm transferring is the stuff with which you don't bother. It is all acoustic. There is no way round doing it because none of it is issued on CD.Fair enough. It is not that I don't bother it is more that my collection contains very little music that has not been released on CD. So far, where I have come across a work in my stack of LPs that is not -currently- available on CD, I have found it has been issued in the past and might be available second hand. A standing order on e-bay works surprisingly well at digging out obscure music. Having said that, my classical music tastes are very mainstream and probably not much of a challenge to find issued on CD. As ever there are horses for courses. -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheLastMan;688120 Wrote: If this does not make you drool you are not a true audiophile ;) http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Model-203a-Review-hifi-news-1587.shtml nah.. I like my SOTA Sapphire much better. [image: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f88340133f575943d970b-800wi] -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Interesting opinions on cleaning. I've always used a discwasher and D3 after the zerostat gun. A quick google just now shows they still sell these guns though they are considerably more expensive than my antique. By always I mean even before CD's. The zerostat de-statics TV's and monitors as well. P -- pski real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them.. It is truly the Golden Age of Wireless pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: You can transfer a 45 minute LP in 15 minutes? That's a neat trick. Surely TheLastMan means that it takes an extra 15 mins on top of the time to do the actual recording. cunobelinus;688073 Wrote: It tends to take me 45 minutes, plus the time it takes to clean, set levels (often needing a complete dry run through in itself, watching the meters all the time, if I'm dealing with unfamiliar music on a disc I've not previously heard) Assuming you're using a decent modern soundcard its noise floor will be so far below that of the vinyl that you have heaps of headroom available. Therefore you can afford to be very conservative when setting levels and normalise later. So no need for a dry run, which will save you 45 mins. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 2 Feb 2012, at 14:49, pski wrote: the zerostat gun. By always I mean even before CD's. The zerostat de-statics TV's and monitors as well. Probably my father's coolest gadget (circa 1968?) applied liberally before placement on the Garrard 301. I'm looking at the very one right now. Well, both of them, in fact - Zerostat and Garrard. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheOctavist;688136 Wrote: nah.. I like my SOTA Sapphire much better. Yeah, somehow network music players (or even CD players) don't look so purposeful do they? -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ (500GB) NAS running LMS 7.7.0 on SSODSmod 4.14 *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I use ClickRepair for removing ticks and pops that a cleaning can't remove. It works extremely well (well, better at ticks than pops). I use it on a low setting (10). For track splitting, I do it by hand in audacity. If it's not obvious where the breaks go, then hopefully the record jacket has timings. If not, well there's always listening. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheLastMan;688200 Wrote: Yeah, somehow network music players (or even CD players) don't look so purposeful do they? not at all! its another reason i like having my tt here...just not for listening most of the time! -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(stock(TT failed dbt)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I'm seeing REAPER mentioned in a lot of places recently - here and in pro audio forums. It's appealing not only for it's feature set but it's cost. For a personal license, it $60. The software is the same whether you purchase a professional or personal license. I may check it out just for grins. I'm happy with Audition (Cool Edit) since that's what I've been using for about 15 years now, but it would be interesting to see how REAPER compares. My Yamaha USB audio interface came with a copy of Cubase 5. I installed it an ugh - it is the most counter intuitive software I've ever used. Unless I can find something it will do that I can't do in Audition, I don't think I'll be using it. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch, SqueezeCommander on Xoom. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
On 1 Feb 2012, at 13:48, maggior wrote: Cubase 5 is the most counter intuitive software I've ever used. Unless I can find something it will do that I can't do in Audition, I don't think I'll be using it. My feeling precisely. A copy (of the Lite version, I think) came with my Focusrite Saffire. I opened it twice, the second time being because I couldn't believe it had been as bad as I remembered.. I tend to use Amadeus Pro - a very simple editor for the nearest thing I've found to blade and block. Sound Studio gets a look in sometimes, if it's obvious a transfer could do with the integration with Sound Soap (although I use that as little as possible) ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
use REAPER.
Thank me later. it is a heavyweight professional audio tool. audacity,
cool.edit, vinyl whatever are all mickey mouse in comparison.
i am well versed in reaper, pro.tools, samplitude and sequoia(my daw of
choice)and am happy to help anyone.
sound card wise..the esi juli@ is a phenomenal choice for this. the
onboard converters are good, loads of i/o and it is cheap!
again...fine to.record at.24 48{any higher is not beneficial) , do your
editing and processing..but imo you should always dither/resample back
to 16\44.1. vinyl has at most...12 bits resolution...so using 24
whatever is like using a industrial warehouse to store a
wristwatch..
--
TheOctavist
VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D
Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due
VentiLink Audio K100
TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Hi- The Bellari vp530 is a good unit. I don't remember their models exactly, but they make phono preamps with USB and tube output. At least one with both. As far as the RIAA curve: if you are going digital, there is a lot of software around that will apply the RIAA curve for you to your file, and good software will do it better and more accurately than just about ANY hardware phono preamp. So what I recommend is: get a phono pre that gives you the option of turning off the RIAA curve for recording purposes - Bellari actually makes one like that (you can of course use it for vinyl playback with the RIAA curve turned on). Then: 1. Record without the RIAA curve 2. Get rid of or reduce major pops, clicks, and noises. 3. Apply RIAA curve with software. 4. Listen. If you think it sounds good you are done with the audio forensics. What's left is tagging, splitting tracks, etc. If you thing the file needs further processing, do it. I personally find that automatic tools can work well if you apply very light processing. Example: I don't try to get rid of all the hiss, I just try to reduce it so it isn't so noticeable. Same for pops and clicks. I just try to reduce volume with automatic tools, not eliminate them. I find that with this approach I don't ruin the sound of my recordings, only improve them. Software: Adobe Audition is good. I use Diamond Cut. It does a great job applying the RIAA curve, by the way. The interesting thing about transferring vinyl to digital is that if you do a good job, the resulting digital tracks sound like analogue. Sort of shows that digital sounding recordings are due to something other than the inherent nature of digital. -- firedog GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running Vortexbox OS; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-DAC-V3, MF X-150 as pre-amp, Grant Fidelity B-283MKII bufferClassDaudio SDS-470 amp; Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
TheOctavist;686590 Wrote: vinyl at its best is about 12 bit resolution. 16 bit is plenty. everytime i see someone touting a 24.bit vinyl.ripi laugh...because it is an epic waste. sure, space is cheap..but why waste it? water is cheap too but i dont fill up.a cooling tower to haveva drink. :-) A 24-bit rip is important IF you are going to do any post-processing on the rip such as volume/fades/noise reduction. The software will work more effectively and introduce less artifacts. Once all that is done then for sure you can reduce the final file to 16/44.1 and it will sound fine. In fact, no-one can tell the difference if done PROPERLY. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
maggior;686501 Wrote: I've used the ART USBPhonoPlus v2. I think it's a great little device. It supports both line level and phono level signals, with built in RIAA eq. You can plug headphones directly into it, and it has a line out. Thanks very much for your detailed post. On the ART Website there is no information about bitrate output. One of the reviews on Amazon states: A/D D/A: 16 bit, 44.1kHz or 48kHz, USB selectable. Although I tend to agree that 16 bits is overkill for listening to files converted from LPs, I would like to have the option to record at 24 bits in case any postprocessing is needed. Do you know if 16 bits is max. with the ART unit? Regards, Guido F. -- guidof MUSIC ROOM: Marantz TT 15S1 Turntable, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge-Conrad Johnson Motif preamp Oppo BDP-83 Universal Player-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC Vortexbox Appliance-WiFi Bridge-Squeezebox Touch-Toslink-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC-Adcom GFP-750 preamp-Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp - Martin Logan SL3s DSpeaker Antimode 8033-REL T1 Sub BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch (analog out)-Little Dot Mk III amp-AKG K701 headphones SECOND BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch-Grado SR125 headphones guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I use the ART USB V.2 with a Sony belt drive and an Audio Technica cart. I don't diddle with output from a equalization basis so I use a simple program called spin-it-again. It presents a cassette recorder analogy: start play-hit record-play side-pause-flip and repeat. At that point the program has a go at identifying where each song starts and stops and will preview this for you. It's a button you can use any time. The songs' stream is shown in a wave form and you can drag the starts/stops and delete/insert track points. You can also stretch and shrink the wave time-wise to finely pick starts/stops. You can also adjust the playback of each song by percentage in case you recorded at 45. There's an album look-up that is sometimes effective. I usually use the gently clean option to get ride of pops such. P -- pski real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them.. It is truly the Golden Age of Wireless pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
guidof;686694 Wrote: Thanks very much for your detailed post. On the ART Website there is no information about bitrate output. One of the reviews on Amazon states: A/D D/A: 16 bit, 44.1kHz or 48kHz, USB selectable. Although I tend to agree that 16 bits is overkill for listening to files converted from LPs, I would like to have the option to record at 24 bits in case any postprocessing is needed. Do you know if 16 bits is max. with the ART unit? Regards, Guido F. The ART I use shows (Vista CP/Sounds/recording/advanced) the box goes up to 2 ch 16 bit stereo at 48kHz. P -- pski real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them.. It is truly the Golden Age of Wireless pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Just a few comments on the conversion process. Over the past 10 years I've converted about 2,000 LPs and open reels to digital, so have my process down fairly pat. I see no big need to comment on the vinyl playback end of things - if you've been happy with your rig for playing records, it'll be just fine playing for the conversion. I've tried a number of different sound cards and convertors for the A-D process, and surprisingly I've always gone back to an older Soundblaster card. I kept expecting to find better and never did. (I've actually pulled that card forward through 3 PC upgrades.) I used Adobe Audition for recording and processing. It's a bit pricey, but I'm very comfortable with its operation and features and it supports everything I need done. I'll typically record one whole side of an LP at a time, then apply any processing and save the side as a single file. Then I open a new window, then cut and paste the first track from the whole side to the new file. I'll typically do a fade in/out to take out the between-track noise (and vinyl always has some), then save the first track. Repeat this by opening another new window and cut/paste the second track. Repeat until the album is done and then tag everything and then burn the album to CD or move it to the server. One note about processing. Click and pop removal can really improve the listening quality of a conversion. However, I usually ID the really egregious pops manually. I tend to be very light-handed with the automated pop removal as it can be the source of artifacts. One needs to adjust the auto settings with every album. Depending the type of music, the instruments played and how they were recorded, the auto correction can be easy with fantastic results or really screw things up. The worst auto-correction I ever had was the Harry James Sheffield album. Auto correction seemed to (very wrongly) think a close-miked trumpet needed a lot of fixing. The results weren't pretty and I ended up with doing no auto-processing and just manually taking out the worst pops. Converting your own analog material is a wonderful option. I have LPs and many original open-reels that simply don't exist on CD. (Stan Kenton at Drury College in 1975 or Marimba Ideal by Domingo Bethancourt anyone?) Alternatively, some of the CD releases of albums originally on LP have been so mangled in their attempts to modernize the sound that the LP is far preferable. Finally, converting your analog material is also a great way to become reacquainted with your own collection! -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
guidof;686694 Wrote: Thanks very much for your detailed post. You're welcome! guidof;686694 Wrote: Do you know if 16 bits is max. with the ART unit? As pski pointed out, yes, it does 16 bit only. If you want to do 24 bit and/or higher sampling rates, you are likely moving into the realm of seperate phono preamp and DAC, rather than an integrated device. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch, SqueezeCommander on Xoom. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
As it happens, I've been researching USB audio interface devices to a little home studio recording. There are some devices in this category support 24 bit with 96 kHz sampling. The only problem with devices like this are: 1) The inputs are typically designed for a studio environment, using either XLR or TRS connectors. So, you'll need adapters and/or special cables. 2) Right and left channels are controlled seperately with no way to gang them together so that the level of both channels can be controlled with a single knob. This can be viewed as a feature too since you would have balance control of the signal being input to your computer. Here are some reasonably priced devices I ran across during my research that you might find fit your needs: M-Audio Fast Track Pro Mobile USB - supports 24 bit/96 kHz M-Audio Fast Track MKii USB Audio Interface - supports 24 bit/ 48 kHz Lexicon Omega - 24/96 suport Lexicon Alpha - 24/48 support For a phono preamp, you could use a receiver you have with a phono in and use a tape monitor loop to record. Or, you could get something like the ART DJPre II phono pramp. Have fun! -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch, SqueezeCommander on Xoom. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Well personally I do feel the A/D converters are important. I started with the internal sound card on my motherboard, went to a Presonus Firestudio Mobile and then settled on a RME Fireface UC. Each was a notable improvement in sound quality. If you can afford it I'd recommend the RME Babyface. -- Jeff Flowerday Jeff Flowerday's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I'm considering ripping at least some of my LPs to my Vortexbox Appliance for use with my SBTs. Here is Phil Leigh's reply to an earlier post. Phil Leigh;686417 Wrote: Well, it was a while ago. I used my Linn LP12/Ittok/Troika into a Linn phono stage then an Apogee ADC into a Digital Audio Labs soundcard via s/pdif. I can't remember exactly what software I used - probably FastEddie for recording/track splitting and DART for mild de-noising. Most importantly, I monitored the process on headphones - speakers were silent to avoid any acoustic feedback. Although the LP12 is reasonably good at feedback suppression/isolation it wasn't by any means perfect! Albums were cleaned on a Keith Monks machine (thanks to a friend who had access to one), captured one side at a time, then split into tracks, then any severe clicks were taken out by hand (a very tedious process!) by editing at/near the sample level. Then a mild wash through DART if required to TRY and get rid of any residual noise - but this had to done judiciously - it's easy to overdo it and wreck the music. About 30% of my vinyl needed this final step. I only ripped stuff I couldn't get elsewhere on CD at the time - although 3/4 of what I ripped has since been reissued. The remainder was mostly obscure rock/pop stuff that sold 3 copies when released... Tarney/Spencer Band or Rockin' Jimmy Byfield anyone? Hope this helps regards Phil I would probably prefer using some sort of USB phono preamp with internal ADC rather than a system similar to the one Phil used. Consequently, I'm looking for users' experiences with USB interfaces such as the *ART* USBPhonoPlus v2, *NAD* PP3i, or *Pro-Ject* Phono Box II USB Phono Preamp. Also, VinylStudio has been suggested as one of the best software solutions for this purpose. Your experience with this or others? Ease of operation and SQ of the ultimate result are my main concerns. Any information will be much appreciated. Guido F. -- guidof MUSIC ROOM: Marantz TT 15S1 Turntable, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge-Conrad Johnson Motif preamp Oppo BDP-83 Universal Player-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC Vortexbox Appliance-WiFi Bridge-Squeezebox Touch-Toslink-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC-Adcom GFP-750 preamp-Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp - Martin Logan SL3s DSpeaker Antimode 8033-REL T1 Sub BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch (analog out)-Little Dot Mk III amp-AKG K701 headphones SECOND BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch-Grado SR125 headphones guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I go about it the hard way. VPI 16.5 Record Cleaner Rega P3-24/Power supply, with other upgrades. Sumiko Blue MC cartridge. Jolida Tube Phono Preamp RME Fireface UC audio interface Presonus Studio One software Click Repair Software (Manual mode click repair, no auto, it messes with too many transients on auto) Even though 24/96 is overkill for vinyl I still record it at 24/96. The Click Repair software is more precise with more data. -- Jeff Flowerday Jeff Flowerday's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I have the NAD PP2 (fully analog), i -almost- wish I'd bought the PP3 instead, but as I later bought a Steinberg CI-1 sound card it's no longer a problem. The PP2 is good, and the PP3i ought to be easy to use as well, so I can -almost- recommend it without even having used one. Software-wise I use Cubase, but I guess it's too complicated (feature overkill) for the sole purpose of ripping vinyl. -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Soulkeeper;686487 Wrote: I have the NAD PP2 (fully analog), i -almost- wish I'd bought the PP3 instead, but as I later bought a Steinberg CI-1 sound card it's no longer a problem. The PP2 is good, and the PP3i ought to be easy to use as well, so I can -almost- recommend it without even having used one. Software-wise I use Cubase, but I guess it's too complicated (feature overkill) for the sole purpose of ripping vinyl. I have the PP3i and, indeed, it is IS really easy to use. I've used it extensively with VinylStudio and have been quite pleased with the results. -- rgro Rg System information Main: PS Audio Quintet Vortexbox Touch (wired) via optical Rega DAC LFD LE IV Signature amp VA Mozart Grands REL Acoustics R305 sub. Home Theatre: Duet/SBR (Wired) Pioneer VSX 919 Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1. SBS 7.7.1 r33751 on a Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.0. Touch w/Hardware V.5. Touch: FW 7.7.1 r9558. Duet: FW 7.7.1 r9557. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
guidof;686481 Wrote: ... Also, VinylStudio has been suggested as one of the best software solutions for this purpose. Your experience with this or others? I've been using Wave Corrector. ( http://www.wavecor.co.uk/ ) It doesn't download track information, but it can save processed files as tagged FLAC files. I don't see in the VinylStudio help file that it will save as tagged FLAC. Will it? (I'm using my SOTA/ETII turntable with my Klyne SK-5A preamp and an Echo Mio sound card to rip). Thanks, Kim -- krochat krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
guidof;686481 Wrote: I'm considering ripping at least some of my LPs to my Vortexbox Appliance for use with my SBTs. Here is Phil Leigh's reply to an earlier post. I would probably prefer using some sort of USB phono preamp with internal ADC rather than a system similar to the one Phil used. Consequently, I'm looking for users' experiences with USB interfaces such as the *ART* USBPhonoPlus v2, *NAD* PP3i, or *Pro-Ject* Phono Box II USB Phono Preamp. Or maybe a Rolls bellari vp530? Also, VinylStudio has been suggested as one of the best software solutions for this purpose. Your experience with this or others? Ease of operation and SQ of the ultimate result are my main concerns. Any information will be much appreciated. Guido F.I started out with an integrated Amp connected headphones out to my PC-soundcard for a DAC. It was quite demanding in terms of footprint on my table so I switched over to a USB RIAA/DAC by Terratec (iVinyl). I'd say regardless of price, it has clear advantages from a convenience perspective over some more alaborate setups. The Nad PP3 looks good and is not that much more expensive. Terratec does have a good SW for recording and handles up to 24/96 if you want. The built in Click and Pop removal is better than Adobe Soundbooth in my experience. For one, at moderate to light settings it does not affect over all sound as far as I can tell (Percussion for example). I have also used the built in DeNoiser on a few bad cases, but only in the quieter passages. It is ok, at least if you don't push it too much, but that is probably the case with any noise reduction sw. However, you end up with Ripp - Clean - Save - open in some Waveditor for splitting - convert to FLAC - open in Mp3Tag for Tagging - find Cover art... finally done... So now I tried Vinylstudio and although I think the Crack/Pop removal in the Terratec SW (algorithmix) was better, every step is done inside Vinylstudio and I save considerable time per LP with it... Not the least since I don't need to be present while recording, it starts and stops on needle down/up... -- Gblenn Gblenn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22759 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I've used the ART USBPhonoPlus v2. I think it's a great little device. It supports both line level and phono level signals, with built in RIAA eq. You can plug headphones directly into it, and it has a line out. The one odd thing (if I remember correctly) was that you couldn't play back on the PC and have the signal come out on the line out jacks - only the headphone jack. Or maybe it's signal on the line in only comes through on the headphone jack? Not a big deal since it's not really a sound card, it's more of an input device. If you think that could be an issue for you, check it out. Actually, if you think it matters to you, let me know and I'll check it out for you. I found the preamp in it to be very quiet and did a good job of allowing you to boost the signal of quieter lps without introducing a bunch of noise. It's nice to have a knob to tweak to set the levels! Many audio input devices with USB output don't have a means of adjusting levels on the device and result in very low signal levels. I haven't done much recording lately, so I have it set up on my bedside table where I use it as a headphone amp with my SB3 connected to it. It comes with a wall-wart power supply that lets you use it this way. It will draw power from USB if connected to a PC. Even though they don't state Windows Vista support, I found it works with Vista. I'm sure it would work with Win 7 too. No reason it shouldn't work with Linux either. For doing the recording, tracking, noise reduction (declicking and denoising), I used Cool Edit 2000. Now I use Audition, which is what Adobe called Cool Edit after they bought it. What software you use I think is more a personal preference - it probably doesn't matter all that much. I liked Cool Edit because I could batch process declicking/denoising. It also supports setting up snap to grid for CD block boundaries. This is important so you don't introduce gaps when tracking in the middle of music (such as a concert). This is really only relevant if you plan on ever burning CDs of the music to be played in a CD player. Unfortunately, no cheaper audio software supports this (last I checked anyway). It can be a tedious process, but I found it enjoyable and very educational. Have fun! -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch, SqueezeCommander on Xoom. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
krochat;686496 Wrote: I've been using Wave Corrector. ( http://www.wavecor.co.uk/ ) It doesn't download track information, but it can save processed files as tagged FLAC files. I don't see in the VinylStudio help file that it will save as tagged FLAC. Will it? (I'm using my SOTA/ETII turntable with my Klyne SK-5A preamp and an Echo Mio sound card to rip). Thanks, Kim Yep, VinylStudio can save in flac. As well, you can choose which flac compression level as well as the bit depth. -- rgro Rg System information Main: PS Audio Quintet Vortexbox Touch (wired) via optical Rega DAC LFD LE IV Signature amp VA Mozart Grands REL Acoustics R305 sub. Home Theatre: Duet/SBR (Wired) Pioneer VSX 919 Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1. SBS 7.7.1 r33751 on a Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.0. Touch w/Hardware V.5. Touch: FW 7.7.1 r9558. Duet: FW 7.7.1 r9557. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
the pros use www.cockos.com/reaper does all and more full feature professional daw -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
www.stereophile.com/content/my-first-needle-drop-lessons-learnt-1 also...saving vinyl rips at 24 bits is utterly absurd and offers no benefit.over redbook -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
I haven't tried to be scientific about it, but my 24-bit rips do seem to sound notably better than 16-bit. I'm using Audacity for recording, so maybe it's an issue with the way it does the conversion. I've beein doing rips at 24/96 lately. Disk space is cheap, and I don't do that many rips that space is yet an issue. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
To all prior posters: Thank you very much for your informative replies. Lots of input to mull over . . . Any further thoughts will also be welcome. Best regards, Guido F. -- guidof MUSIC ROOM: Marantz TT 15S1 Turntable, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge-Conrad Johnson Motif preamp Oppo BDP-83 Universal Player-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC Vortexbox Appliance-WiFi Bridge-Squeezebox Touch-Toslink-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC-Adcom GFP-750 preamp-Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp - Martin Logan SL3s DSpeaker Antimode 8033-REL T1 Sub BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch (analog out)-Little Dot Mk III amp-AKG K701 headphones SECOND BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch-Grado SR125 headphones guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
guidof;686564 Wrote: To all prior posters: Thank you very much for your informative replies. Lots of input to mull over . . . Any further thoughts will also be welcome. Best regards, Guido F. I would like to second that as well. Great idea starting this thread. It seems I may have inadvertantly meandered the conversation down a ADC conversion path in the TT3.0 thread, with questions of how to make my 24/96 on the Squeezebox sound like an LP of the same master pedigree(?) using TT 3.0 for help. Not quite as simple as I thought as the consensus seemed to agree that it wasn't an apples to apples comparison. Fair enough, it never occurred to me. In order to get to a real comparison it was suggested I should rip my vinyl and compare that, so if it can be done in a fairly inexpensive process I am going to try to apply the knowledge gained here as best I can. I haven't ripped a record since my days with 90 minute Chromium Dioxide blank tapes using a dual deck Pioneer. ;) I have a feeling going digital may not be as simple, but I'll keep my fingers crossed. -- Munroe Munroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52982 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Daverz;686562 Wrote: I haven't tried to be scientific about it, but my 24-bit rips do seem to sound notably better than 16-bit. I'm using Audacity for recording, so maybe it's an issue with the way it does the conversion. I've beein doing rips at 24/96 lately. Disk space is cheap, and I don't do that many rips that space is yet an issue. The idea is to always record at for example 24/96/88.2 do all post processing you feel it need . And then downconvert with for example dBp to 16/44.1/48 If you wish , you should use something with a good samplerate converting algorithm and dither. Do not record directly at 16/44.1 and then post process The recording and processing at higher rates minimises all kinds of artifacts. Especially if some fillters is used for click and noise removal. I can imagine the warps and clics can have a lot of energy so headroom is needed when recording. Just like in a studio you work with higher rez recording and producing even if you only intend to produce a humble redbook cd :) Hmm that stereophile link was a good one never considered pickup resonances. Good luck with vinyl rips, there is a lot of stuff out of print , wish I did this before selling off my LP's :-/ -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
Mnyb;686581 Wrote: The idea is to always record at for example 24/96/88.2 do all post processing you feel it need Second that. I listen to vinyl not very often but only for the reason of not excessive usage of stylus and record itself ;-) Got recently some valuable records which needed to be digitally immortalized. For cleaning I use cheapest dish liquid and hot distilled water. Then goes the Technics 1200 MKII with Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge right into Pearl Phono Stage. Recording is usually made by field recorder at 24/96 through line input. Post processing, crackle removal etc. done in Sound Forge. Now, I found that some alcohol based cleaners increase background noise - checked that many times, comparing recordings in Sound Forge. I did not notice any difference among several recorders doing A/D process. However I always kept them powered by batteries, not external power supply. Worst sounding turns out to be computer with sound card input. This is a digitizing process but I would use it in the least amount needed. Also do not underestimate the phono stage. IMO this is, right with turntable, the most important piece. My diy, all discrete, with passive equalization Pearl, has very smooth RIAA curve and it really sounds. -- gizek SB Touch DIY FDA-1 DAC Pass Labs X1 preamp Pass Labs XA30.5 amp Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M gizek's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34337 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
for heavy editing, etc 32.bit float or 24 bit is good..only if doing a lot of processing. but leaving at.24 bits to listen is a huge waste...there are no sonic gains16 bits capture the full bandwidth of lp perfectly.abolutely NOTHING gained from leaving in high res... so yeah...record at 32 bfp, edit, dither, resamplei like triangular dither best personallybut powr is great too. r8 brain is,a great vst ugin that can be used with reaper.. -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
vinyl at its best is about 12 bit resolution. 16 bit is plenty. everytime i see someone touting a 24.bit vinyl.ripi laugh...because it is an epic waste. sure, space is cheap..but why waste it? water is cheap too but i dont fill up.a cooling tower to haveva drink. :-) -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ripping Vinyl Experiences
also..the noise involved from the preamp, medium, etc renders the extra bit depth for any processing in the editor meaningless and futile... processing a lot of tracks heavily in a daw...yes. for this? absolutely not. not required or useful. -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93265 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
