Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
If one has a good vinyl setup, the overhead of 24/96 AD conversion is minimal compared to the cost of the TT system and you might as well go the high rez route. One of the reasons I bought a TP was for the same reasons as Cliveb...cept he has the 100's and I have the ATC SCM50a's. I bought my speakers unauditioned cos they were a bargain , I paid just under 1000 quid for em. My take on the whole DBT issue is that regardless of whether there is a difference between stuff , if the listener beleives there is , it's a truism for THEM. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Rodney, for sure go the high-res route. If you had an old treasured photo, you'd still want to take a copy of it with the highest quality optics you can, regardless of how crinkled, faded it is and how poor the original camera was. I use ATC SCM100As myself by the way. I bought them with my eyes and ears open. BTW,I very much doubt anyone has used a DBT to evaluate any component of their own system. A DBT is one where neither the person administering the test nor the person taking it have any idea of which component is which. Quite difficult to arrange. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
deutscherhififan;442939 Wrote: This little guy connected to a decent table may be all you need: http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=phonoboxusbcat=accessorieslang=en I think it works with PC only, though. Yup, this little guy works a treat - download Audacity and you're all go. You will be able to sample at 24/96 if you like, but I heard virtually no audible reason to do so. I've never tried it on my Mac, easier to use my windows laptop next to the TT than lug the thing upstairs. -- bigbossman bigbossman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29947 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
JezA;443049 Wrote: cliveb - did you do a DBT of your transporter or ATC100s before buying them? I am intrigued to know how you did it, especially in the case of the speakers. No, of course I didn't. While I'm in the camp which believes that the only way to tell if there is a *genuine* difference in sound is to do a DBT, I'm not the type who thinks this is the only valid way to audition equipment. I'm beginning to get the feeling that you (JezA) are the sort who revels in a bit of stirring things up to see what transpires. You often lob in the odd disparaging comment without really contributing much that's constructive. But in case you're genuinely interested in how I went about choosing the ATCs, here's what happened: A friend who was in the HiFi retail business at the time had a pair of SCM100As, and they impressed me. Having contacts like that is useful, and he arranged for me to accompany him on a visit to the ATC factory. While there I briefly spoke to Billy Woodman, who impressed me with his no-nonsense engineering approach. Later in the day I auditioned active 50s and 100s (and a pair of passive 20s) at Ashley James' home (Ashley was ATC's sales director at the time). As it happened, the 50s sounded a little more agile and possibly more detailed than the 100s, but the latter had this sense of weight and authority that I preferred. So that's what I bought. All this auditioning was sighted, of course. This was 16 years ago, and I've never regretted buying the ATCs for one moment. And the Transporter? I bought it because I wanted a digital preamp with remote control and balanced outputs. It was cheap for such a device. The only place I heard it before buying was at a HiFi show (where you can't make any sensible conclusions about sound). I expected it to sound a little bit better than the SB2 I had at the time, but was pleasantly surprised at how much better it was. Sighted, of course, so I could easily be deluding myself. That good enough for you? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb;442973 Wrote: Wow - that's some seriously trashed vinyl! If the state of an LP is that bad, I respectfully suggest that whether you record it at 24 or 16 bits (or even 12 bits for that matter) is kind of irrelevant. Not really i can't find any measurments now, but a click is very fast and goes on for a very short time, so it can have a high peak value without sounding that bad. Energy was a bad choice of word, peak value then. As for rumble, they modified the RIAA curve for a reason(s) nowadays the curve always has a rumble filter of a sort, remember those days watching the speaker cone moving in and out in visible during lp playback ? this was usually with bass reflex speakers. -- Mnyb Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Mnyb;442952 Wrote: Another reason to actually record 24bit is that rumble clicks and pops from the vinyl can have magnitudes higher level than the music itself thus making digital clipping and such. Wow - that's some seriously trashed vinyl! If the state of an LP is that bad, I respectfully suggest that whether you record it at 24 or 16 bits (or even 12 bits for that matter) is kind of irrelevant. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
JezA wrote: What double blind tests have you done on any component of your hi-fi system? How did you do them? And what relevance is that to the issue in hand? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
JezA;442987 Wrote: If you were trying to reproduce a photograph that had originally been taken on a not very good camera, would you use another not very good camera, or would you get a better result using the best optics you can? I'd use a camera that was good enough. To continue your analogy, transferring vinyl LPs to digital is like making a copy of a photo in a newspaper. A standard 35mm SLR with a decent lens is more than adequate. Recording vinyl LPs at 24/96 is akin to using a Hasselblad medium format - it's unnecessary and adds nothing. JezA;442987 Wrote: There are some very fine recording engineers, such as Doug Sax, who would disagree with you about the superiority of red book cd vs analogue. http://www.airshowmastering.com/newsimg/1.pdf I never claimed redbook is superior to top-end analogue (eg. high speed 1/2 track tape). As far as I can tell from the article you reference, that's what Doug Sax is talking about. But we're discussing transferring vinyl LPs here, not 30ips master tapes. Robin Bowes;442997 Wrote: JezA wrote: BTW, cliveb, just as you argue that other people hear what they want to hear, perhaps it is also true that you don't hear what you don't want to hear! Absolutely, which further demonstrates the value of DBT. I am acutely aware that my own expectations that I won't hear a difference could be just as destructive as someone else's expectation that they will. I've said as much on previous occasions on this forum. That said, I like to feel that the first time I did a listening comparison between 16/44 and 24/96 recordings of an LP I had an open mind. Of course, for the skeptic who isn't expecting to hear a difference, a DBT doesn't help - their expectation of no difference will survive the constraints of a DBT. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
If all you are doing is straight vinyl rips with no DSP post-processing, 16/44.1 is perfectly adequate and produces results that are indistinguishable from the the original vinyl and/or higher-res captures. I've done over 600 rips. The quality of the vinyl, turntable, arm, stylus, head amp and ADC are crucial. The resolution/bit-depth isn't. In the studio I'd use 24/96 all the time, because I'm going to be doing some heavyweight DSP and need the wiggleroom for the maths. Without any DSP, 16/44.1 captures all you need. What you get off even the best vinyl is far removed from what is on the tape masters unfortunately... that's assuming there are tape masters :-). Pressed Vinyl just doesn't have the dynamic range, noise floor, frequency response etc of 30ips half-inch tape. Doing 24-bit capture of master tapes with their 96dB dynamic range makes sense. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb - did you do a DBT of your transporter or ATC100s before buying them? I am intrigued to know how you did it, especially in the case of the speakers. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: I'd prefer to do 24/96. Any particular reason why? The signal that comes off even the finest quality LP pressed on heavyweight virgin vinyl has a dynamic range of no more than 70dB, and that's on a good day with a following wind. That equates to less than 12 bits of resolution. And while some LPs do produce some kind of output above 22kHz, its almost completely noise and distortion, so sampling rates above 44.1kHz are pointless. There are some seemingly plausible arguments for using higher recording resolutions: 1. If you're going to do any kind of restoration in software using DSP, then recording at 24 bit avoids the danger of rounding errors accumulating and infecting the low level detail. But since the surface noise from an LP is orders of magnitude greater than even a 16 bit noise floor, you'd have to do dozens of DSP operations before there is any danger that these errors will be audible above the vinyl noise. 2. Some people think that declickers will have an easier time detecting clicks if they have higher frequencies to work with (the rise times will be sharper) and hence believe higher sample rates are worthwhile. I am skeptical: most clicks from vinyl LPs are wideband artefacts, covering the entire frequency spectrum. They are just as detectable whether you're looking at 0-22kHz or 0-48kHz. Any glitches that are only present above 22kHz won't be audible anyway, so there's no need to fix them. (And of course by recording at 44.1, they won't even be recorded). One may well argue that it can't hurt to record at higher resolutions - all it does is consume a bit more disk space, which is cheap. But the downside to working at high resolution is that there are a number of useful software tools around which only work at 16/44. Recording at high resolution denies you access to these tools, while not actually increasing quality at all. (NB. If you are in the loony camp that believes LPs really do have better resolution than 16/44 PCM and deserve high res recording, then I'm afraid there is probably nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise). ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: What turntables are good? Look for manual turntables without any automatic facilities. Belt drive and direct drive are equally satisfactory provided you get a good one. Good turntables are not cheap. You'll get better quality for your money if you buy secondhand and have a specialist give it the once-over. If you're looking for brand names of worthwhile turntables, here are a few: Rega, Dual, Linn, Oracle, Mitchell, Thorens, plus the top-end models from Japanese manufacturers such as Technics and Denon. There are plenty of others. ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: Are any of the USB turntables decent? Absolutely not. They are almost universally cheap and nasty devices with poor quality pickup arms, questionable A/D converters and non-adjustable recording levels. ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: I have an iMac. Anyone here have suggestions for that, too? Sorry, I'm Windows based. From what I've heard, the built-in audio inputs on Macs tend to be fairly decent quality, so start off recording using those. If you feel they are not up to snuff, go for a decent external USB audio interface from the likes of EMU and M-Audio. (Echo Audio also do nice devices, but they are Firewire - do Macs still have Firewire or has Mr Jobs now fully embraced the dark side?) I've been digitising LPs since 1994, and have written up some notes that you might find helpful: http://delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Thanks, clive! Ton of good comments to mull over. -- ezkcdude There are 10 kind of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. SHINYMETAL '*Site*' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com)| '*RSS*' (http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/rss/ezdiyaudio.xml) |'*Forum*' (http://ezdiyaudio.informe.com) ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
I certainly can't compete with cliveb's excellent help page, but here's how I work (with a Mac). The output from my Michell Gyro SE/Tecnoarm/G1042/Graham Slee Era V Gold phono stage goes into a Sugden Headmaster (for headphone listening) and then out to the amp. The pre-out from the Headmaster connects to an M-Audio Transit USB device that I connect to a MacBook running Audacity. I've taken to recording at 48Khz/24bit (so am only partially loony!). Once an LP has been captured - usually as one large wave file, I transfer this to a Mac Mini desktop running Apple's Soundtrack Pro. Being somewhat masochistic I do all the click removal manually by redrawing the samples - identifying visually the worst offenders. I'm not obsessive about surface noise - though in the past I have used DCart on a PC, with moderate success at times. Once the waveform is cleaned up, it's a simple - though time consuming process to cut and paste tracks to a new wave file, top and tail them (adding a fade in/out so surface noise ramps in and out) and save them before converting to Flac, tagging, and adding to Squeezecenter. I know there are tools that can automate some (or maybe all) of this, but I don't feel the need to use these . . Two things strike me as being really important: use the best quality source components you can afford, and when making the initial recording set the levels so the signal peaks just under 0db. If it's consistently over you'll get a loudness wars type result, and if too far under there'll be a need to normalise the waveform upwards; only do this on waves containing the complete LP or else you'll destroy the levels between tracks. I try not to normalise at all. As a very rough guide, the processing takes about twice as long as actually recording it - if there's only moderate click removal needed. Each LP-rip is a labour of love, and visitors hearing Flac playback of the files often don't believe they're from old-fashioned vinyl . . . -- morris_minor Living Room: Transporter Study: Receiver Kitchen: Boom Son's Bedroom: Classic iPeng on an iPhone, 2 x Controllers Server: TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3i SC 7.2.1 - 23630 - - - - http://www.last.fm/user/morris_minor_1 morris_minor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13950 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
The EMU USB devices work very well on PC. I use an EMU0202 myself - wish I'd bought the 0404 now as it does a bit more (S/PDIF in/out). I believe the EMU stuff will also work on Mac, but will not support 24/192. As Clive has said, avoid USB TT's - generally they are not good, either mechanically or electronically. The only one I've spotted anywhere that may be any good is this one http://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/product.asp?shop=0ProductID=443 . Chris :) -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Stratmangler;442806 Wrote: I believe the EMU stuff will also work on Mac, but will not support 24/192. I mean that it will support 24/192 on PC, but only 24/96 on Mac. Just thought I'd clarify the point. Chris :) -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
morris_minor;442796 Wrote: Two things strike me as being really important: use the best quality source components you can afford Definitely. The best transfers start with good analogue playback. Stuff lost at this stage can't be recovered in software. Something else I'd add: clean the LP properly. Ideally use a vacuum device such as a Nitty Gritty, VPI or Moth (although given their cost I appreciate this isn't practical for many people). I'd say if you're planning to transfer more than 100 LPs or so, a vacuum record cleaner is a worthwhile investment. Otherwise do the best you can with brushes, cleaning solutions, and LOTS of distilled water for rinsing. morris_minor;442796 Wrote: and when making the initial recording set the levels so the signal peaks just under 0db. If it's consistently over you'll get a loudness wars type result It's not that it shouldn't consistently go over: you should NEVER allow the recording level to exceed 0dB. Clipping just isn't acceptable. Don't let it happen. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb wrote: Good turntables are not cheap. You'll get better quality for your money [other great stuff elided] One more point, the conversion takes a long time. I used a very good turntable with a new cartridge (the rubber in the support mechanism tends to die because of ozone in the air, etc.) into pro-audio ADC. I was happy with the sound, but not how long it took. After cleaning the record and needle I'd record it. If I was lucky, I'd have the right gain staging and have no clipping (the only real reason for recording at 24bit sample width, IMHO). Then I'd have to listen to the recording, and split the side into tunes, name the tunes, and save the file down to redbook standards. So a 45 minute LP would take about three hours. I decided that if the album was available in CD for under $10, it was better use of my time and money to just buy the CD. Clearly for out of print stuff, and I have a fair amount of that, you have to do the transfer -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb;442768 Wrote: Any particular reason why? The signal that comes off even the finest quality LP pressed on heavyweight virgin vinyl has a dynamic range of no more than 70dB, and that's on a good day with a following wind. This statement oversimplifies the situation. For some actual measurements, see http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2 My personal tests with LP ripping and bit depth showed that the difference between 16 and 24 bits was easily audible. (And no, my tests weren't double blind). Regards, Kim -- krochat -- Acourate - Inguz DSP - SB3 - GW Labs DSP (96kHz upsampler) - Apogee Big Ben - TacT RCS 2.2X - 2x TacT S2150 - Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Another reason to actually record 24bit is that rumble clicks and pops from the vinyl can have magnitudes higher level than the music itself thus making digital clipping and such. Once you removed this you can probably go back to 16bit. Btw was it not so that cheap phono stages with insufficient overload margins a slow settling times makes clicks worse ? A vinyl, I sold all of mine :/ i would love to have one of those old micro seiki turntables http://my-micro.de/rx1500vg.htm -- Mnyb Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
