Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
opaqueice;176257 Wrote: No offense intended, but I couldn't disagree with you more. A huge proportion of high-end audio products are total garbage, at least from a price/performance point of view. It's true a $15,000 wire will conduct electricity, but so will a 10 cent wire, and so by any reasonable standard the $15,000 version should get a very, very bad review. Instead the reviewers spout nonsense about speed, timing, extension, etc., when in truth they'd be incapable of picking the thing out in a blind test. It's pretty despicable, really. If it is better, even marginally, then there is a cost/benefit analysis that may differ depending on your circumstances. If I am Bill Gates, I may see that $15k as so small that I may as well, but if I am living on slightly humbler means, I may instead choose to feed my children. I think almost all decent audio equipment sounds pretty good. Some I prefer to others, some I think are great bargains, others I don't understand what people see in them (I am glad Mr Floding prefers his old Krell, for example!). I have heard systems priced above £100k that sound (to my ears) much worse than mine. Others liked them. However, I know no-one who actually spends that much on audio - I'd need a load of dough to justify that sort of audio spend, given what else could be done with that cash! And I do agree that a reviewer should be able to pick out such differently-priced products in a blind test. Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
A Bentley is far more expensive than my Mazda 6. If I had the money to buy a Bentley, I probably would. Of course, I don't have the money, so I'll call Bentley owners idiots, say they're wasting their money, and proclaim that my Mazda 6 is all the car one needs. -- ezkcdude DIY projects page: http://www.ezdiyaudio.com System: SB3-EZDAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Ron Olsen;176009 Wrote: And some more words of wisdom about what's important in sound quality: http://www.biline.ca/critic1.htm This way of looking at everything in black and white (good guys vs. bad guys) is indicative of some kind of condition. Perhaps AS, which, of course, has a large spectrum of symptoms and degrees of severity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome The would would be a much more boring place without such people. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
But surely all of us that hang out on this and other similar fora are by definition displaying AS tendencies? It would certainly explain some of the exchanges here... Ceejay -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Well, at least, in typical American fashion, it will give us something else but ourselves to blame for our behaviour. I like this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_virus ceejay;176086 Wrote: But surely all of us that hang out on this and other similar fora are by definition displaying AS tendencies? It would certainly explain some of the exchanges here... Ceejay Slim Devices Rules! Everybody else drools!!! jan -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
jmourik;176106 Wrote: Well, at least, in typical American fashion, it will give us something else but ourselves to blame for our behaviour. I like this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_virus Slim Devices Rules! Everybody else drools!!! jan Well, recent research points to obesity depending partly on individual traits. In addition, when the industry (even health oriented industry), and the experts all say the wrong thing, sure people are going to get fat. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
jmourik;176106 Wrote: Well, at least, in typical American fashion, it will give us something else but ourselves to blame for our behaviour. I like this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_virus Interesting idea... way OT, but there's a principle (maybe that's too strong a word) from evolutionary biology which says that any condition that even slightly reduces your chance of having children (including anything that increases your risk of dying young) can not be genetic (unless it somehow confers a compensating benefit, i.e. sickle-cell anemia). One often-cited example is stomach ulcers, which contrary to years of medical belief turned out to be caused by infection and could be cured with antibiotics. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
jmourik;176106 Wrote: Well, at least, in typical American fashion, it will give us something else but ourselves to blame for our behaviour. I like this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_virus Slim Devices Rules! Everybody else drools!!! jan jan, you should amend American to Republican fashion. We Democrats blame ourselves for everything :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
tomjtx;176131 Wrote: jan, you should amend American to Republican fashion. We Democrats blame ourselves for everything :-) What's your proof that Democrats blame themselves for everything? Have you not read the news everyday? Democrats only blame others for everything. -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
FatElvis2000;175079 Wrote: I've searched their archives for equipment I'm interested in, and they love everything. Maybe help point me to some of the negative reviews... What's with your need for negativity? Does this prove something? Stereophile reviews about 6-10 products a month and obviously would rather review good stuff than bad. So when asking for review samples they obviously pick products that they alreay believe will be good ones. Why would they do otherwise. The point is to recommend good stuff not to spend all day pointing out bad stuff. Occasionally a writer will give a bad review. Sometimes a good review is put into question by John Atkinson who does the measurements. It can be very revealing of both the product and the writer. Sometimes products are received with faults and these are discribed in full in the review. So what's the problem? I would rather read about good products than bad and as long as I have an overall trust in the reviewer countered with some good measurements I'm happy with that. -- mauidj Oracle Delphi/FR64/Dynavector, Krell EVO-555, Krell EVO-202, Krell EVO-402, BW 801-Matrix3. Music all the way! mauidj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7648 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
mauidj;176222 Wrote: Stereophile reviews about 6-10 products a month and obviously would rather review good stuff than bad. So when asking for review samples they obviously pick products that they alreay believe will be good ones. Why would they do otherwise. Why would they do otherwise? Because it would actually make the magazine useful for something. When you're in the market for a new product, it's obviously very useful to have objective comparisons between products. Consumer reports, for example, is good for that, as are (in some cases) consumer websites like epinions. Stereophile doesn't serve that purpose at all - since all the reviews are positive, you have no way of distinguishing between the products they've already reviewed (all good) or the ones they haven't (bad? just not reviewed yet? who knows?). It's ridiculous to think that they only review good products - how can they know that in advance? They must have truly amazing judgement to only ever choose quality products. If you want to learn something about their judgement and integrity, read up on the Carver-Stereophile lawsuit - it's pretty instructive (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Controversy). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
opaqueice;176229 Wrote: Why would they do otherwise? Because it would actually make the magazine useful for something. When you're in the market for a new product, it's obviously very useful to have objective comparisons between products. Consumer reports, for example, is good for that, as are (in some cases) consumer websites like epinions. Stereophile doesn't serve that purpose at all - since all the reviews are positive, you have no way of distinguishing between the products they've already reviewed (all good) or the ones they haven't (bad? just not reviewed yet? who knows?). It's ridiculous to think that they only review good products - how can they know that in advance? They must have truly amazing judgement to only ever choose quality products. If you want to learn something about their judgement and integrity, read up on the Carver-Stereophile lawsuit - it's pretty instructive (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Controversy). Where are all you guys coming up with this 100% positive review stat? It just is not true. You are all asking for factual statements from this magazine yet you detractors cannot prove your own facts. Bit ironic don't you think! Like I said, i am not in love with Stereophile...far from it. But they do some good stuff and I do not have a problem reading positive stuff! And they are not Consumer Reports BTW...nor do they try to be. Funny sice CR got so nailed recently for false reporting! -- mauidj Oracle Delphi/SME IV/Dynavector, SB3, Krell EVO-555, Krell EVO-202, Krell EVO-402, BW 801-Matrix3. Music all the way! mauidj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7648 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Where are all you guys coming up with this 100% positive review stat? It just is not true. You are all asking for factual statements from this magazine yet you detractors cannot prove your own facts. Bit ironic don't you think! Hmm - in your previous posting you seemed to agree their reviews were overwhelmingly positive and were defending that practice. In any case, I certainly don't read every review in Stereophile, but I have ready quite a few and I've yet to see a negative one. If you want evidence, it's rather easy to find here: http://www.stereophile.com/. I suspect if you search enough you'll eventually find something approximating a negative one. The closest I've seen was a tube amp which had massive distortion (which they commented on in the measurement section), but even there the reviewer actually liked the sound. Anyway, any magazine which favorably reviews $15,000 wires has zero credibility. Unforunately that seems to describe almost all audio magazines these days... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
opaqueice;176229 Wrote: Why would they do otherwise? Because it would actually make the magazine useful for something. When you're in the market for a new product, it's obviously very useful to have objective comparisons between products. Consumer reports, for example, is good for that, as are (in some cases) consumer websites like epinions. Stereophile doesn't serve that purpose at all - since all the reviews are positive, you have no way of distinguishing between the products they've already reviewed (all good) or the ones they haven't (bad? just not reviewed yet? who knows?). It's ridiculous to think that they only review good products - how can they know that in advance? They must have truly amazing judgement to only ever choose quality products. If you want to learn something about their judgement and integrity, read up on the Carver-Stereophile lawsuit - it's pretty instructive (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Controversy). I think there's actually very little stuff that's genuinely bad. Why would a manufacturer make it? Why would a dealer sell it? All there is is stuff that I like and stuff that doesn't really do it for me. Since you might like different things, it probably balances out. So you need to find dealers, manufacturers and, yes, magazines and reviewers that seem to be congruent with your taste, and then that gives you useful guidance. Until you have an idea of your own taste and what the reviewers think of products you like, I think they're useless. If you haven't heard enough stuff yourself, they're all useless. If Stereophile match products to reviewers who will probably like them, fine. I'd normally be keen to see what another less 'aligned' reviewer thought, but no big deal. Have some idea of what you might like and treat it all with a healthy dose of scepticism. Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
adamslim;176250 Wrote: I think there's actually very little stuff that's genuinely bad. Why would a manufacturer make it? Why would a dealer sell it? All there is is stuff that I like and stuff that doesn't really do it for me. Since you might like different things, it probably balances out. No offense intended, but I couldn't disagree with you more. A huge proportion of high-end audio products are total garbage, at least from a price/performance point of view. It's true a $15,000 wire will conduct electricity, but so will a 10 cent wire, and so by any reasonable standard the $15,000 version should get a very, very bad review. Instead the reviewers spout nonsense about speed, timing, extension, etc., when in truth they'd be incapable of picking the thing out in a blind test. It's pretty despicable, really. Here for example: http://stereophile.com/cables/1206tara/index.html -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. - Richard Feynman -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Eric Carroll;176261 Wrote: The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. - Richard Feynman Eric, great quote, if everyone followed that advice we would put a lot of the snake oil salesmen out of business. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
tomjtx;176131 Wrote: jan, you should amend American to Republican fashion. We Democrats blame ourselves for everything :-) Ha, that was funny :-) opaqueice Wrote: any condition that even slightly reduces your chance of having children (including anything that increases your risk of dying young) can not be genetic I like that, interesting. Sounds reasonable to me! Oh, oops, on second thought it sounds too evolutionary. So it can't be true. :-) mauidj Wrote: What's with your need for negativity? Does this prove something? Like opaqueice, when I'm looking into some component to buy, like right now a DAC, I want to see reviews that tell me something. If I look for reviews on the Benchmark DAC1, they all say it's a very good DAC. Until Lavry shows up, then I read Lavry is better. Can't the magazines do a nice DAC shootout? I know, a lot is personal, I might prefer the DAC1 over the DA10, and somebody else might prefer the DA10. But maybe I could learn something from a comparo like that. The reviewers could all give their own opinion, like they do in Motorcyclist and SportRider magazine... jan -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
jmourik;176324 Wrote: Like opaqueice, when I'm looking into some component to buy, like right now a DAC, I want to see reviews that tell me something. If I look for reviews on the Benchmark DAC1, they all say it's a very good DAC. Until Lavry shows up, then I read Lavry is better. Can't the magazines do a nice DAC shootout? I know, a lot is personal, I might prefer the DAC1 over the DA10, and somebody else might prefer the DA10. But maybe I could learn something from a comparo like that. The reviewers could all give their own opinion, like they do in Motorcyclist and SportRider magazine... jan They are all (mostly) good. The problem is that hacks have to write something.. ;-) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
P Floding;176327 Wrote: They are all (mostly) good. The problem is that hacks have to write something.. ;-)Yup, and people like me like to read it! I now have subscriptions to TAS and Stereophile. Why? Because I enjoy reading them and subscriptions are cheap! I bought Stereophile last weekend, $6.99! The subscription is $10 for a year on Amazon. So I figure I'll probably buy two a year anyway, so it's cheaper to subscribe and get them all... -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
And some more words of wisdom about what's important in sound quality: http://www.biline.ca/critic1.htm -- Ron Olsen Ron Olsen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9233 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Ron, www.biline.ca was the guy that arranged for many of the Audio Critic back issues to be posted on the web zine. Your URL is essentially a reprint of a backissue prior to the backissues going up. If you liked that article, check out many more like it at www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Back_Issues -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter on the cover of Stereophile, Feb 2007 issue
Thanks for the link, Eric. Lots of interesting stuff in these back issues that resonates with my own sense of what's important and what's not. -- Ron Olsen Ron Olsen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9233 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31860 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
