Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harald Kliems via Bikies]

John, thanks for being a sport about this. Much appreciated. Please say hi
if we cross paths in real life.
To safe and enjoyable biking, with or without electric assist.
 Harald.

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 12:30 AM john wagnitz  wrote:

> Done. A bet I am happy to have lost and a worthwhile cause.
> John
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>
> On Thursday, August 1, 2019, 3:42 PM, Harald Kliems 
> wrote:
>
> Hi John:
> I guess it's August now, and as far as I know there have been no fatal or
> serious injury crashes involving e-bikes in Madison. Please mail your $100
> to
>
> Madison Bikes Inc.
> P.O. Box 260244
> Madison, WI 53726-0244
>
> Or you can donate online and contribute to our Pinney Library fundraiser
> https://www.madisonbikes.org/pinney_library_rack_raising (other Bikies
> are welcome to contribute as well!)
>
> Best,
>  Harald.
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:56 PM Harald Kliems  wrote:
>
> John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a
> fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike
> before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and
> referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you
> can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
> Best,
>  Harald.
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> limit.
> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> “bikes.”
> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz
>
> ___
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>
>
>
> --
> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>
>
>
> --
> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>
>

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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Scott Morris Rose via Bikies]

Respect to John for cheerfully making good.

I'm also concerned about cell phone use on moving bicycles, which is not
the same as saying that I've never done it. As far as I can tell, it's
legal pretty much everywhere save Holland. Let's guess that that's a
recognition that a distracted cyclist is less of a hazard to others than a
distracted driver, but it's still a boneheaded move with risks to others.
(Or if you have a head that's entirely bone, it might be okay - few of us
do. However...) Lots of jurisdictions have mandatory helmet laws, which are
entirely for the benefit of the riders (and those who pay their medical
costs) - why not laws that also protect other road users? Using a cellphone
while driving in my jurisdiction costs a first-time offender a total of
more than $400US, plus a whole whack of points - why not $50 or $100 for an
offending cyclist?

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 4:48 PM Brian Mink via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> John Wagnitz, Thanks for following through with the contribution! Here’s
> hoping there are no deaths associated with using e-assist bikes on bikeways
> and trails. I see daily use and by and large users tend to be well behaved.
> I see more issue with roadies passing at high rates of speed without regard
> to the safety of others. Also increasing use of cellphones by cyclists
> which is the kind of distraction that is likely to be responsible for more
> injuries and deaths than e-assist cyclists.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian Mink
>
>
> Sent with Unibox 
>
> On Aug 1, 2019, at 5:30 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> Done. A bet I am happy to have lost and a worthwhile cause.
> John
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>
> On Thursday, August 1, 2019, 3:42 PM, Harald Kliems 
> wrote:
>
> Hi John:
> I guess it's August now, and as far as I know there have been no fatal or
> serious injury crashes involving e-bikes in Madison. Please mail your $100
> to
>
> Madison Bikes Inc.
> P.O. Box 260244
> Madison, WI 53726-0244
>
> Or you can donate online and contribute to our Pinney Library fundraiser
> https://www.madisonbikes.org/pinney_library_rack_raising(other Bikies are
> welcome to contribute as well!)
>
> Best,
>  Harald.
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:56 PM Harald Kliems  wrote:
>
> John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a
> fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike
> before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and
> referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you
> can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
> Best,
>  Harald.
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> limit.
> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> “bikes.”
> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>
>
> --
> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>
>
>
> --
> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>
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>
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>


-- 
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

John Wagnitz, Thanks for following through with the contribution! Here’s hoping 
there are no deaths associated with using e-assist bikes on bikeways and 
trails. I see daily use and by and large users tend to be well behaved. I see 
more issue with roadies passing at high rates of speed without regard to the 
safety of others. Also increasing use of cellphones by cyclists which is the 
kind of distraction that is likely to be responsible for more injuries and 
deaths than e-assist cyclists. 


Regards,


Brian Mink




Sent with Unibox



> On Aug 1, 2019, at 5:30 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Done. A bet I am happy to have lost and a worthwhile cause.John 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Thursday, August 1, 2019, 3:42 PM, Harald Kliems  wrote:
> 
>> Hi John:
>> I guess it's August now, and as far as I know there have been no fatal or 
>> serious injury crashes involving e-bikes in Madison. Please mail your $100 
>> to 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Madison Bikes Inc.
>> P.O. Box 260244
>> Madison, WI 53726-0244 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Or you can donate online and contribute to our Pinney Library fundraiser 
>> https://www.madisonbikes.org/pinney_library_rack_raising
>> (other Bikies are welcome to contribute as well!)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>>  Harald.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:56 PM Harald Kliems >> wrote:
>> 
>>> John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a 
>>> fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike 
>>> before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and 
>>> referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you 
>>> can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>>  Harald.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies 
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> 
 Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path 
 in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.The offenders are not 
 riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes” with the Copenhagen 
 wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed limit. 
 The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these 
 “bikes.”
 I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before 
 somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
 John Wagnitz 
 
 
 
 ___
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 Bikies@lists.danenet.org
 
 http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
>>> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
>> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>> 
>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[john wagnitz via Bikies]

Done. A bet I am happy to have lost and a worthwhile cause.John 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, August 1, 2019, 3:42 PM, Harald Kliems  wrote:

Hi John:I guess it's August now, and as far as I know there have been no fatal 
or serious injury crashes involving e-bikes in Madison. Please mail your $100 
to 

Madison Bikes Inc.
P.O. Box 260244
Madison, WI 53726-0244 

Or you can donate online and contribute to our Pinney Library fundraiser 
https://www.madisonbikes.org/pinney_library_rack_raising (other Bikies are 
welcome to contribute as well!)

Best, Harald.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:56 PM Harald Kliems  wrote:

John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a fatality 
on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike before the end 
of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and referee. And so 
that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you can send the $100 as a 
donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
Best, Harald.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies 
 wrote:

Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path in 
Madison? I predict before the end of the month.The offenders are not riding 
B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes” with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m 
pretty sure they are breaking the speed limit. The State Legislature gave local 
governments the power to regulate these “bikes.”I hope any local officials 
reading this post will do something before somebody gets seriously injured, or 
killed.John Wagnitz 
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harald Kliems via Bikies]

Hi John:
I guess it's August now, and as far as I know there have been no fatal or
serious injury crashes involving e-bikes in Madison. Please mail your $100
to

Madison Bikes Inc.
P.O. Box 260244
Madison, WI 53726-0244

Or you can donate online and contribute to our Pinney Library fundraiser
https://www.madisonbikes.org/pinney_library_rack_raising (other Bikies are
welcome to contribute as well!)

Best,
 Harald.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:56 PM Harald Kliems  wrote:

> John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a
> fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike
> before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and
> referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you
> can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
> Best,
>  Harald.
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
>> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
>> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
>> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
>> limit.
>> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
>> “bikes.”
>> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
>> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
>> John Wagnitz
>>
>> ___
>> Bikies mailing list
>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Please use encrypted communication whenever possible!
> Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565
>


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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[rick opel via Bikies]

https://youtu.be/wK4MemwtcB4?t=2

On 7/15/2019 5:57 PM, Hank Weiss via Bikies wrote:
Oh just lovely. Can???t wait to see these fella???s on the SW path during 
rush hour.


https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/15/20694433/last-mile-autonomous-robot-delivery-startup-bike-lanes-refraction-ai


Hank Weiss

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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Hank Weiss via Bikies]

Oh just lovely. Can’t wait to see these fella’s on the SW path during rush 
hour. 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/15/20694433/last-mile-autonomous-robot-delivery-startup-bike-lanes-refraction-ai


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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Darin Burleigh via Bikies]

Quoting Brian Mink via Bikies :

...
One hopes that this will not become a common occurrence but if  
Europe is indicative of what happens as the market becomes more and  
more saturated with e-bikes, then we're in likely trouble. Most of  
the hacking software is coming out of Italy & Germany. The biggest  
market for the hacking products is mountain bikers and tinkerers.  
One has only to read sites like "The Endless-sphere.org" DIY e-bike  
community on FB or Reddit to get a sense at how robust this  
community is.


Brian Mink



This is really my concern about e-bikes on the non-motorized trails.

I don't see it as a problem right now. But as more people get used to  
them, many of them will be thinking:

"wow, 17 mph is nice, but wouldn't 25mph be cool?".

And then they'll start lobbying raise the effective speeds. After all,  
isn't 25 just a little bit more than 17?


and so on.

And I don't think the real problem will be crashes from higher speeds  
(although that will happen). The real downer will be all the "regular"  
riders who decide to give up biking because they feel uncomfortable  
with all the speeders. Which is exactly the problem that the  
non-motorized trails were designed to address.


-darin

--
--
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

Bill,

Thanks for your work and that information. Filled in some blanks for me 
as I never knew the story behind the DNR administrative rule creation as 
it related to the trail e-bike speed limit.


E-bike modification really does take two forms. The inline chips change 
the speed sensor data feed so that the motor firmware speed limit target 
which might be restricted to 20mph is fooled, the chip reduces the wheel 
rotation number to a value consistent with 10 mph, i.e. it feeds a count 
50% less than the real count.


The firmware hacks actually use third party control applications 
(firmware editing applications) that connect to the motor unit via a 
serial interface. The applications are menu driven and allow one to set 
parameters for speed, wattage, wheel diameter that effectively override 
the restrictions set by manufacturers. None of those programs are legal 
in the US but one can easily purchase the serial interface to 
communicate with e-bike motor unit control circuits and then buy the 
software from numerous TOR sites.


One hopes that this will not become a common occurrence but if Europe is 
indicative of what happens as the market becomes more and more saturated 
with e-bikes, then we're in likely trouble. Most of the hacking software 
is coming out of Italy & Germany. The biggest market for the hacking 
products is mountain bikers and tinkerers. One has only to read sites 
like "The Endless-sphere.org" DIY e-bike community on FB or Reddit to 
get a sense at how robust this community is.


Brian Mink

William Hauda via Bikies wrote on 7/12/19 8:51 PM:
     Brian did an excellent post raising the host of issues we face with 
the emergence of e-bikes. I've been following this as bicycle 
representative on the Wisconsin Nonmotorized Recreation and 
Transportation Trails Council. The hacking Brian refers to is known in 
the e-bike world as "chipping" - use of add-on computer chip devices 
currently available on the Internet to boost the speeds of e-bikes. So, 
even though the bike may have a sticker applied by the manufacturer as 
to wattage or top speed, that sticker does not necessarily represent the 
limits of the bike because those limits can be easily increased. Given 
human nature they will.


     The DNR has through administrative rules legalized e-bikes on state 
trails with a speed limit of 15 mph. The action was taken without 
consultation with our council, which is mandated by state law. That 
failure is a legal issue in DNR's development of a master plan for the 
Sauk Prairie Recreation area (old Badger Army Ammunition Plant), where 
DNR has proposed to allow use of motorcycles on mountain bike and 
equestrian trails during certain periods, effectively excluding the 
users for which those trails were designed. I was a witness for the Sauk 
Prairie Conservation Alliance in its challenge of how the DNR has 
handled the master plan. The contested case is expected to produce an 
administrative judge's report perhaps by August and DNR will have to 
react. Stay tuned.


     That aside, I did ask the DNR property manager for our district, 
John Arthur, how DNR planned to enforce the 15 mph speed limit. His 
response: "We have radar certified people." Fine, but they have an 
important safety function dealing with vehicles on park roads. A whole 
other issue. DNR's not going to have wardens hiding behind bushes 
recording bicycle speeds at speed traps on trails at the expense of 
enforcement in state parks where the safety of park users is paramount. 
That scenario is ludicrous.


         Bill Hauda


On 7/12/2019 5:56 PM, Brian Mink via Bikies wrote:
In a certain sense this will be water over the dam in a short period 
of time. Everyone should note that the Senate and Assembly bills 
appear to be identical and they both allow both the DNR and local 
government to pass local rules or ordinances that limit the class(es) 
of electric bikes allowed on multi use paths and bikeways. Folks who 
are concerned about the maximum speed of class 3 e-bikes (28mph) 
should lobby city and county government to restrict that class from 
multi use trails and bikeways and appear at DNR hearings that will 
likely occur. No matter the class, everyone should keep in mind that 
all of the common e-bike mid drive electric bicycles as well as hub 
motor pedal assist bicycles are easily hacked to remove or fool speed 
controls. So users with a bit of sophistication can either add in line 
circuits or change firmware to remove the speed limitation for all 
three classes.


I don't think most people will hack their e-bikes but there are always 
those who do. I'm aware of one fellow riding a road bike with a 
Copenhagen Wheel that has clearly hacked firmware. I tried chasing him 
down one day and finally gave up because he was pulling away from me 
at 28 mph. Ultimately it is the rider who is the real aberrant factor 
here. Some people break the rules because they love to break rules and 
the rest of us be damned.

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[William Hauda via Bikies]

    Brian did an excellent post raising the host of issues we face with 
the emergence of e-bikes. I've been following this as bicycle 
representative on the Wisconsin Nonmotorized Recreation and 
Transportation Trails Council. The hacking Brian refers to is known in 
the e-bike world as "chipping" - use of add-on computer chip devices 
currently available on the Internet to boost the speeds of e-bikes. So, 
even though the bike may have a sticker applied by the manufacturer as 
to wattage or top speed, that sticker does not necessarily represent the 
limits of the bike because those limits can be easily increased. Given 
human nature they will.


    The DNR has through administrative rules legalized e-bikes on state 
trails with a speed limit of 15 mph. The action was taken without 
consultation with our council, which is mandated by state law. That 
failure is a legal issue in DNR's development of a master plan for the 
Sauk Prairie Recreation area (old Badger Army Ammunition Plant), where 
DNR has proposed to allow use of motorcycles on mountain bike and 
equestrian trails during certain periods, effectively excluding the 
users for which those trails were designed. I was a witness for the Sauk 
Prairie Conservation Alliance in its challenge of how the DNR has 
handled the master plan. The contested case is expected to produce an 
administrative judge's report perhaps by August and DNR will have to 
react. Stay tuned.


    That aside, I did ask the DNR property manager for our district, 
John Arthur, how DNR planned to enforce the 15 mph speed limit. His 
response: "We have radar certified people." Fine, but they have an 
important safety function dealing with vehicles on park roads. A whole 
other issue. DNR's not going to have wardens hiding behind bushes 
recording bicycle speeds at speed traps on trails at the expense of 
enforcement in state parks where the safety of park users is paramount. 
That scenario is ludicrous.


        Bill Hauda


On 7/12/2019 5:56 PM, Brian Mink via Bikies wrote:
In a certain sense this will be water over the dam in a short period 
of time. Everyone should note that the Senate and Assembly bills 
appear to be identical and they both allow both the DNR and local 
government to pass local rules or ordinances that limit the class(es) 
of electric bikes allowed on multi use paths and bikeways. Folks who 
are concerned about the maximum speed of class 3 e-bikes (28mph) 
should lobby city and county government to restrict that class from 
multi use trails and bikeways and appear at DNR hearings that will 
likely occur. No matter the class, everyone should keep in mind that 
all of the common e-bike mid drive electric bicycles as well as hub 
motor pedal assist bicycles are easily hacked to remove or fool speed 
controls. So users with a bit of sophistication can either add in line 
circuits or change firmware to remove the speed limitation for all 
three classes.


I don't think most people will hack their e-bikes but there are always 
those who do. I'm aware of one fellow riding a road bike with a 
Copenhagen Wheel that has clearly hacked firmware. I tried chasing him 
down one day and finally gave up because he was pulling away from me 
at 28 mph. Ultimately it is the rider who is the real aberrant factor 
here. Some people break the rules because they love to break rules and 
the rest of us be damned.


Neither bill addresses the issue of policing which unfortunately 
leaves it to other users of the trails and municipalities or the DNR 
to hold cyclists engaging in dangerous behavior to account.


I think there is a place for Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on multi use trails. 
Early on I had some objection to class 2 which does not require pedal 
assist and can use a throttle but there are many riders with muscle 
wasting diseases, arthritis, MS, and a host of other diseases or 
deformities that preclude them from having enough muscle strength to 
initiate and sustain pedaling. Class 2 has a firmware restricted speed 
of 20 mph which is too fast for most multi use trails.


So, we should all be prepared to help guide municipalities as they 
craft new rules and ordinances which can be crafted to limit classes 
and maximum speed.


Brian Mink
Monona, WI





John Coleman via Bikies wrote on 7/12/19 4:23 PM:
      As primarily a cyclist but also a pedestrian, I am concerned 
about the speeds that are possible with little effort on eBikes. The 
Class 3 eBikes identified in the state legislation can be motor 
powered up to 28mph. Above that it's all leg power.  for more detail 
see: Senate Bill 129 



      Mr. Arnold of Bike Fed., below, asks why pick on electric bikes 
for special attention. I respond with "Because making it easy to go 
28mph promotes going 28mph."  We all like to go fast. But under leg 
power, going 28mph requires substantial effort that few are willing 
to put out for more than a short period. When it is pos

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

In a certain sense this will be water over the dam in a short period of 
time. Everyone should note that the Senate and Assembly bills appear to 
be identical and they both allow both the DNR and local government to 
pass local rules or ordinances that limit the class(es) of electric 
bikes allowed on multi use paths and bikeways. Folks who are concerned 
about the maximum speed of class 3 e-bikes (28mph) should lobby city and 
county government to restrict that class from multi use trails and 
bikeways and appear at DNR hearings that will likely occur. No matter 
the class, everyone should keep in mind that all of the common e-bike 
mid drive electric bicycles as well as hub motor pedal assist bicycles 
are easily hacked to remove or fool speed controls. So users with a bit 
of sophistication can either add in line circuits or change firmware to 
remove the speed limitation for all three classes.


I don't think most people will hack their e-bikes but there are always 
those who do. I'm aware of one fellow riding a road bike with a 
Copenhagen Wheel that has clearly hacked firmware. I tried chasing him 
down one day and finally gave up because he was pulling away from me at 
28 mph. Ultimately it is the rider who is the real aberrant factor here. 
Some people break the rules because they love to break rules and the 
rest of us be damned.


Neither bill addresses the issue of policing which unfortunately leaves 
it to other users of the trails and municipalities or the DNR to hold 
cyclists engaging in dangerous behavior to account.


I think there is a place for Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on multi use trails. 
Early on I had some objection to class 2 which does not require pedal 
assist and can use a throttle but there are many riders with muscle 
wasting diseases, arthritis, MS, and a host of other diseases or 
deformities that preclude them from having enough muscle strength to 
initiate and sustain pedaling. Class 2 has a firmware restricted speed 
of 20 mph which is too fast for most multi use trails.


So, we should all be prepared to help guide municipalities as they craft 
new rules and ordinances which can be crafted to limit classes and 
maximum speed.


Brian Mink
Monona, WI





John Coleman via Bikies wrote on 7/12/19 4:23 PM:

      As primarily a cyclist but also a pedestrian, I am concerned about the speeds 
that are possible with little effort on eBikes. The Class 3 eBikes identified in the 
state legislation can be motor powered up to 28mph. Above that it's all leg power.  
for more detail see: Senate Bill 129 


      Mr. Arnold of Bike Fed., below, asks why pick on electric bikes for special 
attention. I respond with "Because making it easy to go 28mph promotes going 
28mph."  We all like to go fast. But under leg power, going 28mph requires 
substantial effort that few are willing to put out for more than a short period.  When it 
is possible to go 28mph with little effort because a motor is providing most of the 
oomph, more people will go 28mph.

      I am overjoyed, and sometimes chagrined :), at the number of people that 
now use the ped/bike paths.  I support getting more people on bikes, on their 
feet and out of cars and if that involves e-bikes, fine.  What I can not 
support is legislation that facilitates unsafe speeds on shared paths. eBikes 
on pedestrian/bicycle paths, that are not limited to a typical speed of 
unassisted bikes, promote higher speeds.

      Maybe, as Mr. Arnold suggests, speed limits on shared paths is a step in 
the right direction, maybe there are other approaches.   In any case, we can't 
pretend a 28mph bicycle on a shared path isn't an issue for a pedestrians going 
2.8 mph.   I hope conversations such as the one on this listserv help to guide 
us in the right direction.

take care,
john

p.s. we've been discussing this on the Marquette Neighborhood listserve and I'm 
copying a post from there in case anyone wants to investigate the specific 
legislation:
 Forwarded Message 
*Subject: *[MarqNA] eBike vs eScooter Wisconsin legislation
*Date: *Sun, 7 Jul 2019 12:27:02 -0500
*From: *John colema...@ameritech.net [MarqNA] 
*To: *marqna 

To be clear, there are bills in the the Assembly and Senate for Electric 
Bicycles and, separately, for Electric Scooters.  The Senate and Assembly 
versions appear identical or very similar. Their exact status is difficult to 
determine. The bills are linked below:
Assembly Bill 132  - 
regulating _eBikes_    - passed during Assembly 6/20/2019 2019 Regular Session and 
sent to Senate
Assembly Bill 159  - regulating 
_eScooters_   - "Laid on the table" during Assembly 6/20/2019 2019 Regular Session
Senate Bill 129  - regulating 
_eBikes_   - "Available for scheduling" at the Senate
Senate B

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[John Coleman via Bikies]

     As primarily a cyclist but also a pedestrian, I am concerned about the 
speeds that are possible with little effort on eBikes. The Class 3 eBikes 
identified in the state legislation can be motor powered up to 28mph. Above 
that it's all leg power.  for more detail see: Senate Bill 129 


     Mr. Arnold of Bike Fed., below, asks why pick on electric bikes for 
special attention. I respond with "Because making it easy to go 28mph promotes 
going 28mph."  We all like to go fast. But under leg power, going 28mph 
requires substantial effort that few are willing to put out for more than a 
short period.  When it is possible to go 28mph with little effort because a 
motor is providing most of the oomph, more people will go 28mph.

     I am overjoyed, and sometimes chagrined :), at the number of people that 
now use the ped/bike paths.  I support getting more people on bikes, on their 
feet and out of cars and if that involves e-bikes, fine.  What I can not 
support is legislation that facilitates unsafe speeds on shared paths. eBikes 
on pedestrian/bicycle paths, that are not limited to a typical speed of 
unassisted bikes, promote higher speeds.

     Maybe, as Mr. Arnold suggests, speed limits on shared paths is a step in 
the right direction, maybe there are other approaches.   In any case, we can't 
pretend a 28mph bicycle on a shared path isn't an issue for a pedestrians going 
2.8 mph.   I hope conversations such as the one on this listserv help to guide 
us in the right direction.

take care,
john

p.s. we've been discussing this on the Marquette Neighborhood listserve and I'm 
copying a post from there in case anyone wants to investigate the specific 
legislation:
 Forwarded Message 
*Subject: *[MarqNA] eBike vs eScooter Wisconsin legislation
*Date: *Sun, 7 Jul 2019 12:27:02 -0500
*From: *John colema...@ameritech.net [MarqNA] 
*To: *marqna 

To be clear, there are bills in the the Assembly and Senate for Electric 
Bicycles and, separately, for Electric Scooters.  The Senate and Assembly 
versions appear identical or very similar. Their exact status is difficult to 
determine. The bills are linked below:
Assembly Bill 132  - 
regulating _eBikes_    - passed during Assembly 6/20/2019 2019 Regular Session 
and sent to Senate
Assembly Bill 159  - 
regulating _eScooters_   - "Laid on the table" during Assembly 6/20/2019 2019 
Regular Session
Senate Bill 129  - 
regulating _eBikes_   - "Available for scheduling" at the Senate
Senate Bill 152  - 
regulating e_Scooters_ - Presented to the Governor on 7-3-2019

The eBike legislation limits _electric bicycles to a max of 28mph under motor 
power_.
The eScooter legislation limits_electric scooters to a max of 20mph under motor 
power._

Do not confuse the above _legislation_ with the BCycle _rental program_ (white 
bikes in racks around town).  Trek has decided to limit those eBikes to a max 
of 17mph under motor power for their own reasons.

The eBike legislation states:
"In general, an _electric bicycle is subject to the same rules as other 
bicycles_ and an operator of an electric bicycle is subject to the same rules 
and is afforded the same privileges as operators of other bicycles..." with a 
few exceptions, see the linked bill.
The eScooter legislation states:
"The bill authorizes electric scooters to be used on certain highways subject 
to the _same requirements as apply under current law to EPAMDs._" (Electric 
Personal Assistive Mobility Device).

The legislation and the legislative history is available at: 
https://legis.wisconsin.gov/ but difficult to muddle through.


On 7/12/2019 3:20 PM, bikies-requ...@lists.danenet.org wrote:
> We all have seen bicycle athletes on completely
> human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to
> other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for
> special attention?
> --
> Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and
> Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Directors Lobbying Committee


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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harry Read via Bikies]

Thanks, John. At a minimum, I hope those particular ebikers get
crowd-shamed out of bombing through like that.

Harry


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:24 PM Robbie via Bikies 
wrote:

> Don't keep your opinions to yourself! That's the fun of this list - a
> little spirited debate. But also don't take insult if people disagree.
>
> Robbie Webber
> State Smart Transportation Initiative
> www.ssti.us
> 608-263-9984 (office)
> 608-225-0002 (cell)
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:21 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> Harry,
>> I’d be happy to. The first instance occurred last week. I was traveling
>> east on the capital city trail, crossing Dunning street (harmony bar). An
>> eastbound commuter was attempting to pass me when a cyclist with a rear
>> powered device traveling west at a high speed (25 mph?) came around the
>> bend to catch the green light (I assume).Both were in the center lane and I
>> thought a head on collision was inevitable. It wasn’t. Both got into their
>> respective lanes and all ended well. The second instance occurred
>> yesterday. Again, I was eastbound on the capital city trail. While crossing
>> Thornton Avenue, I was passed by a cyclist with a rear powered device
>> traveling east at a high speed, even though it was obvious (to me anyway)
>> that the light ahead was red and bikes were queuing up. West bound cyclists
>> were still coming toward us but he wasn’t slowing down for anything. While
>> waiting at the light he was re-packing his luggage which had almost fallen
>> off his bike. When the light turned green, he proceeded out onto Eastwood
>> drive so he could beat all the bikes ahead of him waiting at the light. By
>> the time I reached russel street, he was out of sight.
>> It was the second incident, last night, that prompted my “hyperbolic”
>> post.
>> In retrospect, I should have waited to cool down before posting. In both
>> instances nobody was hurt and maybe it was my own perception that danger
>> was lurking. My apologies to anybody I offended.
>> While I expected some spirited debate on the topic, I was a little
>> surprised by the responses posted. Next time, I’ll keep my opinions to
>> myself.
>> John Wagnitz
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 4:22 PM, Harry Read via Bikies <
>> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>>
>> It's good to hear that most people posting here are not seeing much in
>> the way of irresponsible ebike use but perhaps John Wagnitz can describe
>> some specific instances that prompted his post. Responding to Jeff
>> Schimpf's post, I agree that BCycle rentals are probably not going to make
>> much of a difference. What I'm picturing is people purchasing ebikes to use
>> for commuting that they would charge at home, for whom having electric
>> assist makes bike commuting a more viable option vs driving--to cover a
>> greater distance, faster with less exertion. I think that could lead to a
>> big reduction in emissions.
>>
>> Harry Read
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:57 PM Brian C. Mink via Bikies <
>> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Could not agree more, Be Best.
>>
>> My wife and I are lifelong road and touring cyclists. We're retired at
>> this point an tandem cycle daily. We spent some 40 years on a range of high
>> end tandems but in the last couple years both have developed Sacro Iliac
>> Dysfunction which in recent years has limited out ride length and hill
>> climbing. We as a matter of pain control had a custom tandem built with a
>> Shimano Steps e-assist motor (250 watt mid drive) which is set to provide
>> climbing assist when our speed drops below 12 mph (max assist speed
>> restricted to 18mph)
>>
>> We ride on many local trails and bikeways on our way to Paoli, Bellville,
>> Oregon, New Glarus, Monroe and points beyond. We have the luxury of riding
>> during the day when there are a whole lot of similarly situated folks
>> riding all of the trails around Madison on e-assist bike of one variety or
>> another. I've yet to see anyone on an e-assist bicycle doing anything that
>> even approaches the fears expressed in some earlier emails. Fact is
>> hundreds of e-assist bikes are being used in active mode on Madison and
>> Dane county bike trails and this has been true for several years.
>>
>> I see the opposite, lots of folks renting B-cycle e-assist bikes who are
>> acting responsibly. Riding below the upper limit of e-assist speed
>> restrictions (these are firmware restricted speed controls). Fact is I'm
>> seeing 3X as many people riding bikes compared to last year.
>>
>> So let's temper the hyperbole and celebrate the fact that more people are
>> cycling and cycling longer in years and miles.
>>
>> Brian Mink
>> Monona, WI
>>
>> Matt Coppens via Bikies wrote on 7/10/19 1:05 PM:
>>
>> I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to
>> create drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a
>> rational adult.
>>
>> So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Robbie via Bikies]

Don't keep your opinions to yourself! That's the fun of this list - a
little spirited debate. But also don't take insult if people disagree.

Robbie Webber
State Smart Transportation Initiative
www.ssti.us
608-263-9984 (office)
608-225-0002 (cell)

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:21 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Harry,
> I’d be happy to. The first instance occurred last week. I was traveling
> east on the capital city trail, crossing Dunning street (harmony bar). An
> eastbound commuter was attempting to pass me when a cyclist with a rear
> powered device traveling west at a high speed (25 mph?) came around the
> bend to catch the green light (I assume).Both were in the center lane and I
> thought a head on collision was inevitable. It wasn’t. Both got into their
> respective lanes and all ended well. The second instance occurred
> yesterday. Again, I was eastbound on the capital city trail. While crossing
> Thornton Avenue, I was passed by a cyclist with a rear powered device
> traveling east at a high speed, even though it was obvious (to me anyway)
> that the light ahead was red and bikes were queuing up. West bound cyclists
> were still coming toward us but he wasn’t slowing down for anything. While
> waiting at the light he was re-packing his luggage which had almost fallen
> off his bike. When the light turned green, he proceeded out onto Eastwood
> drive so he could beat all the bikes ahead of him waiting at the light. By
> the time I reached russel street, he was out of sight.
> It was the second incident, last night, that prompted my “hyperbolic”
> post.
> In retrospect, I should have waited to cool down before posting. In both
> instances nobody was hurt and maybe it was my own perception that danger
> was lurking. My apologies to anybody I offended.
> While I expected some spirited debate on the topic, I was a little
> surprised by the responses posted. Next time, I’ll keep my opinions to
> myself.
> John Wagnitz
>
> On Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 4:22 PM, Harry Read via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> It's good to hear that most people posting here are not seeing much in the
> way of irresponsible ebike use but perhaps John Wagnitz can describe some
> specific instances that prompted his post. Responding to Jeff Schimpf's
> post, I agree that BCycle rentals are probably not going to make much of a
> difference. What I'm picturing is people purchasing ebikes to use for
> commuting that they would charge at home, for whom having electric assist
> makes bike commuting a more viable option vs driving--to cover a greater
> distance, faster with less exertion. I think that could lead to a big
> reduction in emissions.
>
> Harry Read
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:57 PM Brian C. Mink via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more, Be Best.
>
> My wife and I are lifelong road and touring cyclists. We're retired at
> this point an tandem cycle daily. We spent some 40 years on a range of high
> end tandems but in the last couple years both have developed Sacro Iliac
> Dysfunction which in recent years has limited out ride length and hill
> climbing. We as a matter of pain control had a custom tandem built with a
> Shimano Steps e-assist motor (250 watt mid drive) which is set to provide
> climbing assist when our speed drops below 12 mph (max assist speed
> restricted to 18mph)
>
> We ride on many local trails and bikeways on our way to Paoli, Bellville,
> Oregon, New Glarus, Monroe and points beyond. We have the luxury of riding
> during the day when there are a whole lot of similarly situated folks
> riding all of the trails around Madison on e-assist bike of one variety or
> another. I've yet to see anyone on an e-assist bicycle doing anything that
> even approaches the fears expressed in some earlier emails. Fact is
> hundreds of e-assist bikes are being used in active mode on Madison and
> Dane county bike trails and this has been true for several years.
>
> I see the opposite, lots of folks renting B-cycle e-assist bikes who are
> acting responsibly. Riding below the upper limit of e-assist speed
> restrictions (these are firmware restricted speed controls). Fact is I'm
> seeing 3X as many people riding bikes compared to last year.
>
> So let's temper the hyperbole and celebrate the fact that more people are
> cycling and cycling longer in years and miles.
>
> Brian Mink
> Monona, WI
>
> Matt Coppens via Bikies wrote on 7/10/19 1:05 PM:
>
> I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to create
> drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a rational
> adult.
>
> So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents
> resulting in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing brought to
> the attention by local news outlets. And those who are riding said bicycles
> are probably more aware of their surroundings because of the precious cargo
> they carry.
>
> This post/chat has

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[john wagnitz via Bikies]

Harry,I’d be happy to. The first instance occurred last week. I was traveling 
east on the capital city trail, crossing Dunning street (harmony bar). An 
eastbound commuter was attempting to pass me when a cyclist with a rear powered 
device traveling west at a high speed (25 mph?) came around the bend to catch 
the green light (I assume).Both were in the center lane and I thought a head on 
collision was inevitable. It wasn’t. Both got into their respective lanes and 
all ended well. The second instance occurred yesterday. Again, I was eastbound 
on the capital city trail. While crossing Thornton Avenue, I was passed by a 
cyclist with a rear powered device traveling east at a high speed, even though 
it was obvious (to me anyway) that the light ahead was red and bikes were 
queuing up. West bound cyclists were still coming toward us but he wasn’t 
slowing down for anything. While waiting at the light he was re-packing his 
luggage which had almost fallen off his bike. When the light turned green, he 
proceeded out onto Eastwood drive so he could beat all the bikes ahead of him 
waiting at the light. By the time I reached russel street, he was out of sight. 
It was the second incident, last night, that prompted my “hyperbolic” post. In 
retrospect, I should have waited to cool down before posting. In both instances 
nobody was hurt and maybe it was my own perception that danger was lurking. My 
apologies to anybody I offended. While I expected some spirited debate on the 
topic, I was a little surprised by the responses posted. Next time, I’ll keep 
my opinions to myself.John Wagnitz 

On Wednesday, July 10, 2019, 4:22 PM, Harry Read via Bikies 
 wrote:

It's good to hear that most people posting here are not seeing much in the way 
of irresponsible ebike use but perhaps John Wagnitz can describe some specific 
instances that prompted his post. Responding to Jeff Schimpf's post, I agree 
that BCycle rentals are probably not going to make much of a difference. What 
I'm picturing is people purchasing ebikes to use for commuting that they would 
charge at home, for whom having electric assist makes bike commuting a more 
viable option vs driving--to cover a greater distance, faster with less 
exertion. I think that could lead to a big reduction in emissions.

Harry Read

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:57 PM Brian C. Mink via Bikies 
 wrote:

Could not agree more, Be Best.

My wife and I are lifelong road and touring cyclists. We're retired at this 
point an tandem cycle daily. We spent some 40 years on a range of high end 
tandems but in the last couple years both have developed Sacro Iliac 
Dysfunction which in recent years has limited out ride length and hill 
climbing. We as a matter of pain control had a custom tandem built with a 
Shimano Steps e-assist motor (250 watt mid drive) which is set to provide 
climbing assist when our speed drops below 12 mph (max assist speed restricted 
to 18mph) 

We ride on many local trails and bikeways on our way to Paoli, Bellville, 
Oregon, New Glarus, Monroe and points beyond. We have the luxury of riding 
during the day when there are a whole lot of similarly situated folks riding 
all of the trails around Madison on e-assist bike of one variety or another. 
I've yet to see anyone on an e-assist bicycle doing anything that even 
approaches the fears expressed in some earlier emails. Fact is hundreds of 
e-assist bikes are being used in active mode on Madison and Dane county bike 
trails and this has been true for several years.

I see the opposite, lots of folks renting B-cycle e-assist bikes who are acting 
responsibly. Riding below the upper limit of e-assist speed restrictions (these 
are firmware restricted speed controls). Fact is I'm seeing 3X as many people 
riding bikes compared to last year.

So let's temper the hyperbole and celebrate the fact that more people are 
cycling and cycling longer in years and miles.

Brian Mink
Monona, WI

Matt Coppens via Bikies wrote on 7/10/19 1:05 PM:

 I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to create 
drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a rational 
adult.
So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents resulting 
in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing brought to the attention 
by local news outlets. And those who are riding said bicycles are probably more 
aware of their surroundings because of the precious cargo they carry.
This post/chat has successfully wasted nearly 10min of my time in what equates 
to pointless squabbling. If you want to make great use of time here,  let's 
focus on advocating for better roads, inclusion of separate bike lanes on 
reconstruction and resurfacing of roads,  and more signage to alert drivers of 
cyclists. 
Be Best.  
 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 Steve Arnold via Bikies  
wrote:

On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike 
> p

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Paul T. O'Leary via Bikies]

Fixed that for ya...

On 2019/07/10 17:01, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies wrote:

 as God_WIN_ intended.


--
Paul T. O'Leary
Chronic Nuisance
Madison, WI  USA

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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Scott Morris Rose via Bikies]

I too, at times, would like to attack the integrity of another poster. But
I don't, because... well, actually, I often do. Case in point, in fact. But
I enjoyed this particular discussion regardless any overblown claims. What
actually lights my fuse is reasoned, measured comments - tolerance of
others who might ride differently than I do is a particular irritant. After
all, we didn't labour to build and maintain this internet of ours for
rational discourse - we built it so we could compare one another to facists
and genocidalists, as God intended.

I love-hate you all.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:21 PM Matt Coppens via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to create
> drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a rational
> adult.
>
> So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents
> resulting in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing brought to
> the attention by local news outlets. And those who are riding said bicycles
> are probably more aware of their surroundings because of the precious cargo
> they carry.
>
> This post/chat has successfully wasted nearly 10min of my time in what
> equates to pointless squabbling. If you want to make great use of time
> here,  let's focus on advocating for better roads, inclusion of separate
> bike lanes on reconstruction and resurfacing of roads,  and more signage to
> alert drivers of cyclists.
>
> Be Best.
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 Steve Arnold via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
>> > Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike
>> > path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
>> > The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
>> > with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
>> > limit.
>>
>> Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state
>> trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think
>> establishes a speed limit?
>>
>> > The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate
>> these
>> > “bikes.”
>>
>> The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an
>> Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed
>> into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.
>>
>> > I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
>> > somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
>> > John Wagnitz
>>
>> The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike Fed, the
>> American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of
>> Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources,
>> Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities) agree
>> that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and especially
>> not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.
>>
>> They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined
>> vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle
>> tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle
>> tracks and pedestrian ways.  This solution is in place and working well
>> on the busiest active transportation facilities in Madison:  the Capital
>> City State Trail at Monona Terrace, where bike commuter and fishermen
>> and -women safely coexist.
>>
>> If there is still a safety problem, or if mode separation is infeasible,
>> then regulators should consider speed limits for all facility users, not
>> just one vehicle type.  We all have seen bicycle athletes on completely
>> human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to
>> other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for
>> special attention?
>> --
>> Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and
>> Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Directors Lobbying Committee
>> 2530 Targhee Street, Fitchburg, Wisconsin  53711-5491
>> Telephone +1 608 278 7700 · Facsimile +1 608 278 7701
>> steve.arn...@fitchburg.wi.us · http://Arnold.US
>> ___
>> Bikies mailing list
>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>


-- 
S. Rose
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harry Read via Bikies]

It's good to hear that most people posting here are not seeing much in the
way of irresponsible ebike use but perhaps John Wagnitz can describe some
specific instances that prompted his post. Responding to Jeff Schimpf's
post, I agree that BCycle rentals are probably not going to make much of a
difference. What I'm picturing is people purchasing ebikes to use for
commuting that they would charge at home, for whom having electric assist
makes bike commuting a more viable option vs driving--to cover a greater
distance, faster with less exertion. I think that could lead to a big
reduction in emissions.

Harry Read

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:57 PM Brian C. Mink via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Could not agree more, Be Best.
>
> My wife and I are lifelong road and touring cyclists. We're retired at
> this point an tandem cycle daily. We spent some 40 years on a range of high
> end tandems but in the last couple years both have developed Sacro Iliac
> Dysfunction which in recent years has limited out ride length and hill
> climbing. We as a matter of pain control had a custom tandem built with a
> Shimano Steps e-assist motor (250 watt mid drive) which is set to provide
> climbing assist when our speed drops below 12 mph (max assist speed
> restricted to 18mph)
>
> We ride on many local trails and bikeways on our way to Paoli, Bellville,
> Oregon, New Glarus, Monroe and points beyond. We have the luxury of riding
> during the day when there are a whole lot of similarly situated folks
> riding all of the trails around Madison on e-assist bike of one variety or
> another. I've yet to see anyone on an e-assist bicycle doing anything that
> even approaches the fears expressed in some earlier emails. Fact is
> hundreds of e-assist bikes are being used in active mode on Madison and
> Dane county bike trails and this has been true for several years.
>
> I see the opposite, lots of folks renting B-cycle e-assist bikes who are
> acting responsibly. Riding below the upper limit of e-assist speed
> restrictions (these are firmware restricted speed controls). Fact is I'm
> seeing 3X as many people riding bikes compared to last year.
>
> So let's temper the hyperbole and celebrate the fact that more people are
> cycling and cycling longer in years and miles.
>
> Brian Mink
> Monona, WI
>
> Matt Coppens via Bikies wrote on 7/10/19 1:05 PM:
>
> I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to create
> drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a rational
> adult.
>
> So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents
> resulting in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing brought to
> the attention by local news outlets. And those who are riding said bicycles
> are probably more aware of their surroundings because of the precious cargo
> they carry.
>
> This post/chat has successfully wasted nearly 10min of my time in what
> equates to pointless squabbling. If you want to make great use of time
> here,  let's focus on advocating for better roads, inclusion of separate
> bike lanes on reconstruction and resurfacing of roads,  and more signage to
> alert drivers of cyclists.
>
> Be Best.
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 Steve Arnold via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
>> > Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike
>> > path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
>> > The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
>> > with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
>> > limit.
>>
>> Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state
>> trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think
>> establishes a speed limit?
>>
>> > The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate
>> these
>> > “bikes.”
>>
>> The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an
>> Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed
>> into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.
>>
>> > I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
>> > somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
>> > John Wagnitz
>>
>> The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike Fed, the
>> American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of
>> Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources,
>> Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities) agree
>> that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and especially
>> not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.
>>
>> They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined
>> vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle
>> tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle
>> tracks and pedestrian ways.  This soluti

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Brian C. Mink via Bikies]

Could not agree more, Be Best.

My wife and I are lifelong road and touring cyclists. We're retired at 
this point an tandem cycle daily. We spent some 40 years on a range of 
high end tandems but in the last couple years both have developed Sacro 
Iliac Dysfunction which in recent years has limited out ride length and 
hill climbing. We as a matter of pain control had a custom tandem built 
with a Shimano Steps e-assist motor (250 watt mid drive) which is set to 
provide climbing assist when our speed drops below 12 mph (max assist 
speed restricted to 18mph)


We ride on many local trails and bikeways on our way to Paoli, 
Bellville, Oregon, New Glarus, Monroe and points beyond. We have the 
luxury of riding during the day when there are a whole lot of similarly 
situated folks riding all of the trails around Madison on e-assist bike 
of one variety or another. I've yet to see anyone on an e-assist bicycle 
doing anything that even approaches the fears expressed in some earlier 
emails. Fact is hundreds of e-assist bikes are being used in active mode 
on Madison and Dane county bike trails and this has been true for 
several years.


I see the opposite, lots of folks renting B-cycle e-assist bikes who are 
acting responsibly. Riding below the upper limit of e-assist speed 
restrictions (these are firmware restricted speed controls). Fact is I'm 
seeing 3X as many people riding bikes compared to last year.


So let's temper the hyperbole and celebrate the fact that more people 
are cycling and cycling longer in years and miles.


Brian Mink
Monona, WI

Matt Coppens via Bikies wrote on 7/10/19 1:05 PM:
I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to 
create drama where none has existed before. But I don't, because I am 
a rational adult.


So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents 
resulting in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing 
brought to the attention by local news outlets. And those who are 
riding said bicycles are probably more aware of their surroundings 
because of the precious cargo they carry.


This post/chat has successfully wasted nearly 10min of my time in what 
equates to pointless squabbling. If you want to make great use of time 
here,  let's focus on advocating for better roads, inclusion of 
separate bike lanes on reconstruction and resurfacing of roads,  and 
more signage to alert drivers of cyclists.


Be Best.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 Steve Arnold via Bikies 
mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>> wrote:


On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the
bike
> path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding
“bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the
speed
> limit.

Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state
trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think
establishes a speed limit?

> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to
regulate these
> “bikes.”

The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an
Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed
into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.

> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something
before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz

The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike
Fed, the
American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of
Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources,
Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities)
agree
that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and
especially
not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.

They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined
vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle
tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle
tracks and pedestrian ways.  This solution is in place and working
well
on the busiest active transportation facilities in Madison:  the
Capital
City State Trail at Monona Terrace, where bike commuter and fishermen
and -women safely coexist.

If there is still a safety problem, or if mode separation is
infeasible,
then regulators should consider speed limits for all facility
users, not
just one vehicle type.  We all have seen bicycle athletes on
completely
human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to
other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for
special attention?
-- 
Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and

Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Direct

Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Matt Coppens via Bikies]

I too, at times, want to yell out into the void of the interwebs to create
drama where none has existed before. But I don't,  because I am a rational
adult.

So let's be real,  there has been no notable accidents or incidents
resulting in serious injuries or deaths. There has been nothing brought to
the attention by local news outlets. And those who are riding said bicycles
are probably more aware of their surroundings because of the precious cargo
they carry.

This post/chat has successfully wasted nearly 10min of my time in what
equates to pointless squabbling. If you want to make great use of time
here,  let's focus on advocating for better roads, inclusion of separate
bike lanes on reconstruction and resurfacing of roads,  and more signage to
alert drivers of cyclists.

Be Best.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 Steve Arnold via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
> > Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike
> > path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> > The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> > with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> > limit.
>
> Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state
> trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think
> establishes a speed limit?
>
> > The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> > “bikes.”
>
> The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an
> Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed
> into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.
>
> > I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> > somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> > John Wagnitz
>
> The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike Fed, the
> American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of
> Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources,
> Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities) agree
> that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and especially
> not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.
>
> They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined
> vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle
> tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle
> tracks and pedestrian ways.  This solution is in place and working well
> on the busiest active transportation facilities in Madison:  the Capital
> City State Trail at Monona Terrace, where bike commuter and fishermen
> and -women safely coexist.
>
> If there is still a safety problem, or if mode separation is infeasible,
> then regulators should consider speed limits for all facility users, not
> just one vehicle type.  We all have seen bicycle athletes on completely
> human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to
> other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for
> special attention?
> --
> Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and
> Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Directors Lobbying Committee
> 2530 Targhee Street, Fitchburg, Wisconsin  53711-5491
> Telephone +1 608 278 7700 · Facsimile +1 608 278 7701
> steve.arn...@fitchburg.wi.us · http://Arnold.US
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Robbie Webber via Bikies]

While I think there are valid concerns with inexperienced people being able
to go relatively fast on paths and trails, I am reminded that carnage was
predicted when New York introduced Citibikes to their streets. People
thought that this would lead to all sorts of tourists, newbie bicyclists,
and others not used to the mean streets of NYC to be splattered across
Manhattan. Instead, everything worked out just fine.

The new electric BCycles have a top speed of 17 mph, or rather the electric
assist cuts out at this speed. I know this because I was pedaling my heart
out on a gentle downhill, and yet couldn't even go as fast as I probably
could on my own standard bike. The Bcycles are the only ones that are
likely to be ridden by extremely inexperienced bicyclists. And... see the
above example with Citibikes.

Robbie Webber
Transportation geek
All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
organization with which I am affiliated.

Founding member, Madison Bikes 
*...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
place year round.*
MadisonBikes.org 
Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:38 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> limit.
> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> “bikes.”
> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harry Read via Bikies]

>From a website called electricbikereview.com, a forum administrator posted
what they describe as a guide to US law regarding ebikes as of 2016. It
states that "In the United States electric bikes have seen slow but steady
growth since the late 90’s and as a result, in 2001 congress was lobbied
and passed the first and only bill to define ebikes in federal law. This
law, 107-319, exempts electrified bicycles with operating pedals using
motors under 750 watts limited to 20 mph from the legal definition of a
motor vehicle." BTW, 750 W is about 1 horsepower. Mopeds (remember those?
no?) were about 3 hp, and scooters of the sort that plague the UW campus
range between perhaps 8 and 15 hp. That jibes with my understanding of why
ebikes are not considered motorcycles. I have not witnessed any close calls
or other issues with ebike riders on bike paths but I can see where
conflict may arise if ebikes continue to grow in popularity.

I think ebikes offer a great opportunity to get people who would otherwise
drive to work, etc., out of their cars, with potentially great reductions
in CO2 emissions as a result. But when I think about the implications of
that, I worry that people who are less experienced bike riders will be out
on their ebikes going at the top end of what most of us can achieve on a
flat roadway. There are ample fatalities and injuries among non-ebike
riders and it would be unfortunate if a spike in ebike accidents kept
people in their cars. I don't have a solution, but I think bike/ebike
safety classes are a good place to start. Are the ebike sellers doing
anything about educating their customers about safety?



On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Steve Arnold via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
> > Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike
> > path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> > The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> > with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> > limit.
>
> Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state
> trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think
> establishes a speed limit?
>
> > The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> > “bikes.”
>
> The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an
> Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed
> into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.
>
> > I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> > somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> > John Wagnitz
>
> The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike Fed, the
> American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of
> Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources,
> Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities) agree
> that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and especially
> not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.
>
> They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined
> vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle
> tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle
> tracks and pedestrian ways.  This solution is in place and working well
> on the busiest active transportation facilities in Madison:  the Capital
> City State Trail at Monona Terrace, where bike commuter and fishermen
> and -women safely coexist.
>
> If there is still a safety problem, or if mode separation is infeasible,
> then regulators should consider speed limits for all facility users, not
> just one vehicle type.  We all have seen bicycle athletes on completely
> human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to
> other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for
> special attention?
> --
> Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and
> Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Directors Lobbying Committee
> 2530 Targhee Street, Fitchburg, Wisconsin  53711-5491
> Telephone +1 608 278 7700 · Facsimile +1 608 278 7701
> steve.arn...@fitchburg.wi.us · http://Arnold.US
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Scott Rajski via Bikies]

John has a super-valid point. Though I do see the advantages and
contributions that e-bikes have made to society and I believe they have a
place, it is also true that a huge number of people effectively use them as
motorcycles. What's more is that, as is now being found out in Europe
(indicated by a dog-walking acquaintance from Finland), the fundamental
problems with E-bikes is that they readily enable folks to operate with
very high speeds in the absence of bike handling skills. That is to say
that, unlike a human-powered bike where the skills involved in attaining
high speeds generally requires commensurate bike handling skills, E-bikes
enable one to quickly obtain high speeds with little to no bike handling
skills.

Don't kid yourselves, someone is definitely going to get hurt unnecessarily
riding an E-bike on the bike trail, maybe not fatally, but seriously. Just
hoping they don't take anybody else down with them. Oh - also - forgot,
this logic is also underscored by the fact that many E-bikes are
tremendously heavy - lots of momentum to deal with.





On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> limit.
> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> “bikes.”
> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Steve Arnold via Bikies]

On 7/9/2019 5:38 PM, john wagnitz via Bikies wrote:
Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike 
path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes” 
with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed 
limit.


Insofar as I know, there is no speed limit on Madison paths and state 
trails.  What statute, ordinance, or administrative rule do you think 
establishes a speed limit?


The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these 
“bikes.”


The "e-bike bill" has been passed by the Senate and recommended by an 
Assembly to the full house, but not passed by the Assembly or signed 
into law by the government.  The powers you describe do not yet exist.


I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before 
somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.

John Wagnitz


The supporters of the e-bike bill (including the Wisconsin Bike Fed, the 
American Heart Association, the Cities and Chambers of Commerce of 
Madison and Milwaukee, Greater Wisconsin Agency on Aging Resources, 
Trek, Harley-Davidson, Uber, and the WI League of Municipalities) agree 
that differences in speed in congested areas, not speed, and especially 
not the source of motive power, are the source of many safety risks.


They urge those who will have power to regulate the newly defined 
vehicles to first consider separation of modes, e.g., providing cycle 
tracks parallel to roads and separating multi-use paths into cycle 
tracks and pedestrian ways.  This solution is in place and working well 
on the busiest active transportation facilities in Madison:  the Capital 
City State Trail at Monona Terrace, where bike commuter and fishermen 
and -women safely coexist.


If there is still a safety problem, or if mode separation is infeasible, 
then regulators should consider speed limits for all facility users, not 
just one vehicle type.  We all have seen bicycle athletes on completely 
human-powered bikes hammering down multi-use paths without regard to 
other users.  Why pick out e-bikes, or Copenhegen Wheel users, for 
special attention?

--
Steve Arnold, Former Mayor, and
Chair, Wisconsin Bike Fed Board of Directors Lobbying Committee
2530 Targhee Street, Fitchburg, Wisconsin  53711-5491
Telephone +1 608 278 7700 · Facsimile +1 608 278 7701
steve.arn...@fitchburg.wi.us · http://Arnold.US
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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

On any given day for the last three years I see dozens of e-bikes 
operating on bike paths and trails. Many are large, heavy cargo bikes 
carrying parents and kids speeding along at sub 20 mph speeds. I've yet 
to see, read about or hear about any accident, let alone death caused by 
an e-bike rider. So, John Wagnitz I'm going to posit that your claim is 
mostly hyperbole.


Brian Mink
Monona

Harald Kliems via Bikies wrote on 7/9/19 7:56 PM:
John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a 
fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an 
e-bike before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as 
a bookie and referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling 
regulations, you can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I 
win.

Best,
 Harald.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies 
mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>> wrote:


Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the
bike path in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding
“bikes” with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are
breaking the speed limit.
The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate
these “bikes.”
I hope any local officials reading this post will do something
before somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
John Wagnitz

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Re: [Bikies] E-Bikes

[Harald Kliems via Bikies]

John, I'd happily take you up on the bet! $100 that there won't be a
fatality on the bike path in Madison that involves someone on an e-bike
before the end of July 2019. Maybe we can get another bikie as a bookie and
referee. And so that we don't run afoul of any gambling regulations, you
can send the $100 as a donation to Madison Bikes if I win.
Best,
 Harald.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:55 PM john wagnitz via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Anybody taking bets on how long before we see a fatality on the bike path
> in Madison? I predict before the end of the month.
> The offenders are not riding B-Cycles but seem to all be riding “bikes”
> with the Copenhagen wheel. I’m pretty sure they are breaking the speed
> limit.
> The State Legislature gave local governments the power to regulate these
> “bikes.”
> I hope any local officials reading this post will do something before
> somebody gets seriously injured, or killed.
> John Wagnitz
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>


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