RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jan Coffey]

--- Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Jan Coffey wrote:
> >It is, however, important to know that %20 of the world population 
> >is far enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> 
> Where does this statistic come from?
> 

Sally Shaywitz M.D. 

http://www.writersreps.com/live/catalog/authors/shaywitzs.html

There are researchers who disagree with shaywitz but as far as I know, not on
this point.

If you read her book and her papers, you may notice some contradictions to
many of the fine detials, but that is usually the case. She seems to have the
big picture right, but is missing the insite of the the experience.




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   Jan William Coffey
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jan Coffey]

--- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jan Coffey wrote:
> > 
> > --- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Jan Coffey wrote:
> > >
> > > > Now, would anyone like to actually talk about the article for which
> this
> > > > thread is titled?
> > >
> > > Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
> > >
> > 
> > About the article or the sidetrack?
> 
> About my new subject line.  This sub-thread isn't titled for any
> existing article.  :)  I figured we could write our own as a
> collaborative effort, maybe.
>  
> And to answer all the questions which I cut, I was *not* thinking about
> you specifically about any particular one, except maybe the "chip on the
> shoulder", and you are not by *any* means the only one to display such
> here.
> 
> Sorry if you took it personally -- I didn't mean for you to do so.  I
> was just taking examples of the most negative and thread-derailing sorts
> of behavior I could recall in the past couple of years or so.
> 
>   Julia
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5) Improperly taking threads personally.

:)


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Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 11:06 PM 7/31/03 -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates 
"backwards":
<>
Must be in the Southern Hemisphere.


It is, but don't quit your day job to become an astronomer.

Or a comedian.

;-P



-- Ronn!  :)

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My exciting day!

[Horn, John]

Well, I'm alive. It's been quite a day.  You are probably wondering
why I'm sending this email after midnight.  Well, the answer will be
revealed below.  If you are looking for the short answer, you can
skip to the bottom paragraph.  If you are looking for way too much
boring detail, have I got a treat for you!  Read on, Mac Duff!  And
don't say I didn't warn you.

For those of you that don't know, don't remember or don't care, I've
been treated for a vocal chord granuloma for almost 2 years now.  A
contact granuloma is a little growth on my vocal chords that keeps
getting cut off and keeps coming back.  I was scheduled for surgery
#5 on Thursday.  The surgery itself usually isn't too horrible
(outpatient and all that) but it is followed by some period of
complete voice rest.  That's the REALLY fun part.

Late Wednesday night, I realized that I hadn't received an
authorization letter from my insurance company for the surgery.
This started me panicking a bit.  Would I be having surgery or not?
So, Thursday morning I called the surgeon's nurse but got her voice
mail.  Then I called my PCP and asked them what could be doing.
Finally, the surgeon's nurse called back and assured me that
everything was ok.  I called back my PCP and said "oops".  Not an
auspicious beginning.

(Why do they send those damn letters?  I don't think I've EVER
gotten one before the actual procedure.  They usually come a day or
two later.  Thanks, that helps a lot.)

Nita dropped me off at the hospital at 11:15 or so.  (Our all-day
baby-sitting plans had fallen through so she couldn't stay with me
from the beginning.  She was going to come back later to be with me
and bring me home.)  The surgery was scheduled for 1:15.  Why do
they tell you to be there THAT early?  The surgeon was running late
and they didn't even call me in until after 1 pm.  So I sat in the
waiting room for 2 hours as my lack of water and caffeine-induced
headache got worse and worse.

Finally, I get called into the prep room.  I get changed, get in bed
and wait some more.  After a bit, they start my IV and do all that
stuff.  Then wait some more.  Apparently the OR room isn't ready.
There's another case that has run over "a bit".  The prep nurse, the
OR nurse and the surgeon's assistant are all standing near me
talking.  Finally, I hear one of them say "5 minutes"!  Then,
someone comes up and says "the C02 laser is broken".  We'll have to
wait for it to get fixed.  A few more minutes pass.  They are having
trouble fixing the laser.  Oh no.  Have I gone through all of this
for nothing?

At that point, my head was really pounding, my arm hurt and I was
feeling strangely jumpy.  I decided to stop listening, as it was
only making it worse, and try to take a nap.  After some unknown
amount of time, the surgeon came in and said they were going to do
the surgery without the CO2 laser.  I guess they used old fashioned
scalpels!

They took me into the OR and moved me to the operating table.  I was
starting to say, "uh, guys?  Have you forgotten something?  I don't
mean to complain, but have you noticed that I am WIDE AWAKE!"  At
that point, they must have hit me with something because that's the
last I remember.  Next thing I knew I was waking up in the recovery
room.

The anesthesia did a number on me again.  Woke up freezing and
shivering uncontrollably.  I was covered with lots of nice warm
blankies and that helped after a while.  Then I was moved to the
second recovery room and they found Anita.  Even though I was still
pretty out of it, the nurse asked if I wanted my IV out so I could
go home.  You bet!  As they did this, Anita and the nurse struck up
a nice conversation about how the nurse's 4 year old son is
apparently exactly the same as our 4-4 year old Andrew:  out of
control, full of energy, amazingly destructive, a wild-child.  In
other words, they are both boys!!

IV out, I was wheel-chaired out of the hospital and on my way home.
Immediately upon returning home, I popped a couple of Tylenol with
Codeine (truly a wonderful drug) and went to sleep.  This was about
5:30 pm, I think.  Nita got the kids, who immediately came up on
succession to check on me and give me a kiss.  Then they went out
somewhere, I can't remember where.  (Nita did tell ask me if I'd be
OK.  I think I nodded an affirmative.)  When they came back, again,
the succession of kids coming in to kiss me good night.  Still I
slept on.  Oh yeah, throughout this time the phone rang a number of
times.  Each time I woke up and started reaching for the phone
before realizing that answering wasn't a good idea as I couldn't
even say "hello?"  If you called, thanks, and, sorry there was no
answer!

I got up a little while ago, around mid-night.  Very hungry, very
thirsty and hurting a bit.  No food but a big drink (and 2 more
Tylenol) later, I decided it was time to send a REALLY long email
with WAY too much detail to all my friends and relations.

Aren't you lucky!

So, the long and short of it is:  I'm O

Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

[Doug Pensinger]

Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates 
"backwards":
<>
Must be in the Southern Hemisphere.

Doug

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Re: Life and Death

[Doug Pensinger]

Deborah Harrell wrote:

I have to believe so, but the loss always leaves at
least a little scar on the heart...I still miss each
of the animal companions who shared their too-short
lives with me.
The good news is that she is home tonight.  We still aren't sure 
what's going on.  The Dr. says the xray looks like there is a mass 
at the base of her trachea, but she has responded to the 
antibiotics, and he says that if there is a tumor there she should 
be retching and unable to hold food down, so perhaps it's an 
abscess.  In any case, she's still not herself, and will probably 
never be close to being as active as she was even a month ago.

Ahh, well, even after she goes, I'll have memories of all the joy 
she gave us and I'll never forget what she taught me about love and 
friendship.

Doug

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Re: Life and Death

[Doug Pensinger]

Julia Thompson wrote:
Doug Pensinger wrote:

So, in the back of my head, I'm wondering if there's a possibility that
my father-in-law just isn't going to ever get to see these two new
grandchildren in person.  And that saddens me greatly.  But we're most
worried about my mother-in-law; I think my father-in-law can handle his
own death a lot more easily than she can.
I sure hope he beats it.  I'm not quite a grandparent yet, but I'm 
looking forward to the experience.  To be denied seeing my son's 
twins - devastating.  But if he beats it, all the more awesome.

Doug



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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ritu Chaudhry]

Russell Chapman wrote:

> >   If it were me, I'd give Ritu the benefit of the doubt.
>
> Conversely, if we are going to start pulling up people every time they 
> make a spelling mistake or a typing error, it's going to degenerate very 
> very quickly. I know Ritu is very proud of her heritage and all that, 
> but it was a simple error that we all make every day - maybe Jan 
> deserved the benefit of the doubt as well.

But it had *nothing* to do with pride in my heritage or any such thing!
I merely wanted to know if he *was* talking about Indians. This was the first mail I 
received in this thread [well, given that this was the second last mail I received 
from Brin-L, it is was the *only* mail I read on the subject until I checked the 
archives this morning] and I wanted to know if what I was reading was an American 
reaction to an issue which dominates the newspapers and magazines here. 

I don't pull up people for spelling mistakes or typing errors but when I am not sure 
of what a word means, I ask for a clarification. I regret that I didn't ask him 
off-list and that the manner of my asking caused him pain.
But I just wanted to know. 

Ritu 

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Hubble's Days Are Numbered

[Robert Seeberger]

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/hubble_future_0306731.html

Despite pleas from a parade of astronomers that NASA consider extending the
life and capabilities of the Hubble Space Telescope (HST), the U.S. space
agency appears unlikely to change its plans to deorbit the space borne
astronomy platform in 2010.

More

xponent
Plan The Funeral Maru
rob


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Austrian Flies Across English Channel

[Robert Seeberger]

See site for picture. Amazing!

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/austrian_calais_030731.html

An Austrian specializing in daring stunt jumps donned a carbon fiber wing
and flew across the English Channel on Thursday after being dropped from a
plane.
Felix Baumgartner made the 34-kilometer (21-mile) trip in 14 minutes,
according to Sarah Christofi, his spokeswoman.

"It's very cold up there,'' the 34-year-old Austrian said upon landing at
Cap Blanc-Nez, near the Channel port of Calais. ``I still can feel
nothing.''

Baumgartner, fitted out with a parachute, was lofted from an airplane some
9,144 meters (30,000 feet) above Dover.

However, he relied solely on the 1.8-meter (5.9-foot) wing attached to his
back for the trip, opening his parachute west of Calais only to slow down
and land. He was dropped above Dover at 6:09 a.m. and landed at 6:23 a.m.,
at one point traveling at 350 kph (217 mph) Christofi said.

Despite the chill, Baumgartner said he felt ``great.''

Cloud cover obscured vision, forcing Baumgartner to follow two lead planes
to find his way. His spaceman-like suit was equipped with cameras and
monitoring equipment so that he could be tracked.

The first man to parachute from Malaysia's Petronas Towers _ the world's
tallest building _ Baumgartner said it wasn't by chance that he chose the
English Channel to literally try out his wing.

"The Channel fits perfectly for the performance of the wing  There's a
lot of spirit in this place,'' he said.

The extreme sports fanatic recalled the 1909 flight across the Channel of
French aviator Louis Bleriot.

"And it's exactly 100 years ago that the Wright Brothers were doing the
first flight with a plane,'' he said. "And now I'm here, with my little
wing."

Americans Wilbur and Orville Wright made the first powered flight, in a
rickety airplane, in December 1903.



xponent

Glide Maru

rob


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Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 09:16 PM 7/31/03 -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Don't use it in the SOU. You don't insult the
> british by not using the information. But by the way
> why is it "as is usual"? It would seem to me in
> something this important the british could share
> their specific information. I would suspect that
> more often than not in situations like this the info
> would be shared. I would very upset to learn that we
> and our allies shared only conclusions not evidence.
The British have stated that their source (informed
speculation is French intelligence, but no one knows
for sure) refused them permission to share the
evidence, only the conclusions.  This is very ordinary
in the intelligence world, where sources and methods
are prized above all things.


And the problem is that you never know until after it has happened which 
seemingly innocuous detail may be enough to get an "asset" (= person) 
killed, which not only may be something you as a human being feel 
responsible for, but it cuts off your source of possible future information 
and alerts the enemy to the fact that you have been spying on them and 
gives them a pretty good idea of what information may have been compromised 
(= the information that asset had access to).



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution


> Russell Chapman wrote:
> >
> > Julia Thompson wrote:
> >
> > >Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:
> > >
> > >Woman & man marry
> > >Woman & man have baby
> > >Woman & man get divorced
> > >Woman gets custody
> > >Woman marries another man
> > >Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
> > >
> > >Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?
> > >
> > This is something that keeps me awake at night... My ex-wife is a
> > fruit-loop who has no concept of responsibility at any level, and can't
> > cope with the children for more than an overnight visit every few
> > months. My second wife, despite having been thrown in the deep end with
> > no preparation and all the challenges that step-parents face, is a
> > wonderful mother who would do (and does) anything and everything for the
> > children.
> > My custody of the children is just a casual agreement between us, there
> > is no court order.
> > If something happenned to me, the default position of the authorities
> > would be to return the children to their natural mother, and her family
> > would want that to happen (my family would not!). I have a clause in my
> > will that basically begs the authorities to leave the children with
> > their step mother, which they may take note of, but that is as much as I
> > can do. Obviously, as the children get older the risk is less and less,
> > but when they were 6 it was a real concern about which I had no control.
> > (they're 10 & 13 now).
>
> Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
> in where they live?
>
> Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
> state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.
>

Its 9 in Texas. It was 11 'til the year before my divorce.
Next year my son will have the right to decide.
As things stand now, my Ex has gotten herself together quite well, mental
health wise, (an unexpected result of our divorce is that she seemed to get
much stronger, something that I am very happy about for the sake of my son)
and I *want* him to stay with his mother. At least for a few more years. I
think that is best for both of them at this point.

On the other hand, her health is sometimes a bit shaky (fibromalgia,
epstien-barre, and occasional tumors, cysts, and whatnots on her ovaries) I
have fears of her succumbing to cancer in a few years. Her mother has a
brain tumor at the moment and her father is in the early stages of
Alzheimer's.
Ever since our divorce her family has been through hell. (mother broke her
hip and back in a fall off the porch, dad lost thousands of dollars
somewhere due to his diminished memory, brother was in an awful auto
accident and is now quadriplegic) I don't hold a lot of hope for them
lasting 20 years.

xponent
My Sons Well Being Maru
rob


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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- Kevin Tarr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous
> statement and the left wing 
> media huffs and puffs until they blow the  issue up
> into whatever slight 
> they feel gets them the best press.
> 
> Kevin T. - VRWC

_Also_ when a right-winger - like Coulter or Robertson
- says something offensive or insane, it's the _right_
that goes after them.  Coulter has been attacked in
National Review.  Andrew Sullivan led the attack on
Pat Robertson.  The right at least makes some effort
to reject its extremists.  Let's see Tom condemn Katha
Pollit once in a while.

When Noam Chomsky says things equally bad - or worse -
our liberal friends like Tom tell us that even
criticizing them is censorship.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution


>
> > --- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >
> > > ...my thinking has gone off on a bit of a tangent:
> > >
> > > In Texas, (and I have to assume that things are done
> > > in a similar fashion in
> > > the rest of the US) when there is a divorce, a
> > > "child of tender years" (age
> > > 9 and under in Texas) is automatically made the
> > > custody of the mother.
> > > The argument being that a young child needs a mother
> > > on a daily basis more than he/she needs a father.
> > >
> > > This brings questions to mind immediately:
> > >
> > > * If homosexual men are allowed to adopt children
> > > under 10 years of age,
> > > will this not constitute prejudice against divorced
> > > heterosexual men?
>
> Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:
>
> Woman & man marry
> Woman & man have baby
> Woman & man get divorced
> Woman gets custody
> Woman marries another man
> Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
>
> Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?
>
In a case of "joint" custody, bio-dad gets the kids. If the mother had
"sole" custody, step-dad gets custody. And that is pretty much automatic.

xponent
Law Is Here Maru
rob


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Re: Salt on your wounds

[Steve Sloan II]

Julia Thompson wrote:

> I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I
> stopped getting leg cramps when I upped my calcium
> consumption.  (I'm supposed to get at least 180% of the
> US recommended daily allowance of calcium each day.)
So, based on simple math, each baby consumes roughly 40% of
the adult RDA of calcium... give or take whatever Sammy gets
from milk. :-)
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Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org
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3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com
Software  Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links
Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com
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Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Don't use it in the SOU. You don't insult the
> british by not using the information. But by the way
> why is it "as is usual"? It would seem to me in
> something this important the british could share
> their specific information. I would suspect that
> more often than not in situations like this the info
> would be shared. I would very upset to learn that we
> and our allies shared only conclusions not evidence.

The British have stated that their source (informed
speculation is French intelligence, but no one knows
for sure) refused them permission to share the
evidence, only the conclusions.  This is very ordinary
in the intelligence world, where sources and methods
are prized above all things.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: Life and Death

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Three weeks ago, for my birthday, my wife and kids
> got me a little 
> yellow sided conure (a small, new world parrot).  At
> about 12 weeks old 
> she isn't quite full grown yet.  She was hand
> raised, and is 
> affectionate, mischievous, curious, and altogether
> endearing...
> 
> But also as I write, my 13 year old dog Lucky lies
> in a cage at the Vet 
> hospital, breathing hard from the fluid collected in
> her lungs, barely 
> able to stand or walk, and low in spirit... She's 
> been such a good dog - 
> smart, affectionate, playful...
> 
> So new life and the awful specter of death.  Does
> one offset the other? 

I have to believe so, but the loss always leaves at
least a little scar on the heart...I still miss each
of the animal companions who shared their too-short
lives with me.

Debbi

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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[Russell Chapman]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it 
originates. 

It's certainly not international - we never have Pole/Polack/Polish 
jokes, but all the same jokes refer to Irish folk. Maybe somewhere in 
the world a bunch of friends are sitting around talking about the Aussie 
terrorist burning his lips blowing up the bus, or sinking an Aussie 
submarine by knocking on the door...

Cheers
Russell C.


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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Russell Chapman]

Kevin Tarr wrote:

I am 100% not trying to say anything bad. I am only pointing this out 
because I know two people who went through this, separate cases. You 
say, the custody of the children is just a casual agreement; then say 
you put a statement in your will, that is as much as you can do. 
Aren't those two conflicting statements?
Not really, we separated and shared custody for a short time, but I 
wanted the kids, she didn't care, and the kids wanted to live with me, 
so it sort of just happened. I later remarried, and Linda has been 
wonderful with them, but I have never resolved the custody thing 
legally. When we got married, we made new wills, as everyone should. I 
was shocked to hear from my solicitor that I had no way of ensuring that 
the children end up with Linda, other than to express my wishes in 
writing in the hope that the courts would consider my request post mortem.

The only way I could firm this up would be to actually sue for custody, 
then try and get them adopted by Linda, but it seems to me that any 
mother - even one who hasn't wanted much to do with her children - is 
going to react badly to someone suggesting that they are not going to be 
her kids anymore, and the fight would be on. I'm much happier to keep 
things rolling along the way they are, where she sees them whenever she 
wants which is not very often (she lives in another state with a new 
partner). It's only casual in the sense that there is no court order 
specifying who has custody, but it has been permanent for about 6 years 
now. (Which is why I worry less about Julia's hypothetical now, though 
Steve's post has made me nervous all over again - :-)  thanks! )

Cheers
Russell C.
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Chad Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This paper was written 5 years ago 
> 
> The Seven Factors 
> These key "failure factors" are: 
> Restrictions on the free flow of information. 
> The subjugation of women. 
> Inability to accept responsibility for individual or
> collective failure. 
> The extended family or clan as the basic unit of
> social organization. 
> Domination by a restrictive religion. 
> A low valuation of education. 
> Low prestige assigned to work.  
> 
> http://denbeste.nu/external/Peters01.html
> 
> 
> The best quote IMHO:
> 
> "The failure is greater where the avoidance of
> responsibility is greater. In
> the Middle East and Southwest Asia, oil money has
> masked cultural, social,
> technical, and structural failure for decades. While
> the military failure of
> the regional states has been obvious, consistent,
> and undeniable, the locals
> sense--even when they do not fully understand--their
> noncompetitive status
> in other spheres as well. It is hateful and
> disorienting to them. Only the
> twin blessings of Israel and the United States, upon
> whom Arabs and Persians
> can blame even their most egregious ineptitudes,
> enable a fly-specked pretense of cultural
viability."

Agreed with many points, disagreed with several --
good read.  I especially agreed with:
"The more dogmatic and exclusive the religion, the
less it is able to deal with the information age, in
which multiple "truths" may exist simultaneously, and
in which all that cannot be proven empirically is
inherently under assault. We live in a time of immense
psychological dislocation--when man craves spiritual
certainty even more than usual. Yet our age is also
one in which the sheltering dogma cripples individuals
and states alike. The price of competitiveness is the
courage to be uncertain--not an absence of belief, but
a synthetic capability that can at once accommodate
belief and its contradictions..."

Debbi
VFP Flexibility

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Russell Chapman]

Steve Sloan II wrote:

It's not *exactly* the same scenario, but I
doubt a step-parent has much more pull than an adoptive parent.
Less - an adoption creates a legal relationship between the parent and 
the child, and diminishes (remember when it used to sever?) the legal 
relationship between the child and the natural parent. A step-parent has 
no legal relationship with the child in the absence of the spouse that 
brought them together, and no weakening of the legal rights of the 
natural parent...

Cheers
Russell C.
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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ritu]

Jan Coffey wrote:

> You know, Ritu, if you are trying to get under my skin, you are doing
a damb
> good job of it. Should we start discussing your own personal flaws? 
>
> Do you really want to make it persoanl? becouse we can do that. Go
ahead and
> try me.

I am not quite sure how to respond to this. Given the context, I thought
you meant 'Indian' [papers here are full off the out-sourcing issues and
the way people are reacting], but I might as well have been mistaken. 
So I asked for a clarification. Is that wrong?

Ritu

PS - I haven't received any mails from the list since 7 am Thursday
morning and just found this mail and lots of others at the archives. I'd
be grateful if Nich or Julia could tell me if I have been unsubbed or
the problem lies with my ISP/something else.


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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ritu]

Jan Coffey wrote:

> The very act of ridiculing, or even admiting to being able to
recognize
> misspellings suggests that the person is from the %80 of the
population that
> is more likely to be unremarkable.
>
> So, Ritu, my sincerist appologies.

*lol*

Since you phrase this so charmingly, I accept the same with my thanks.
:)

Seriously though, I didn't know you were dyslexic and I was merely
trying to clarify if the word was a typo or if you were talking about
else altogether. 
I meant neither ridicule nor attack and I am sorry that my mail made you
feel that way.

Ritu


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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Steve Sloan II]

Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

> One factor which might (or "might should" -- who knows what
> the courts would do) have some bearing is what the child's
> age was when the divorce occurred.  If the child was very
> young at the time of the divorce, the only "Dad" s/he may
> have ever known is the stepfather.  OTOH, if the child was
> 5 years and 11 months old when the divorce became final and
> the mom remarried . . .
I've heard of far too many child custody cases where the judge
took a child away from her adoptive parents, the only parents
she remembered, and gave her to a biological parent who just
showed up one day. It's not *exactly* the same scenario, but I
doubt a step-parent has much more pull than an adoptive parent.
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Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Kevin Tarr]

This is something that keeps me awake at night... My ex-wife is a 
fruit-loop who has no concept of responsibility at any level, and can't 
cope with the children for more than an overnight visit every few months. 
My second wife, despite having been thrown in the deep end with no 
preparation and all the challenges that step-parents face, is a wonderful 
mother who would do (and does) anything and everything for the children.
My custody of the children is just a casual agreement between us, there is 
no court order.
If something happenned to me, the default position of the authorities 
would be to return the children to their natural mother, and her family 
would want that to happen (my family would not!). I have a clause in my 
will that basically begs the authorities to leave the children with their 
step mother, which they may take note of, but that is as much as I can do. 
Obviously, as the children get older the risk is less and less, but when 
they were 6 it was a real concern about which I had no control. (they're 
10 & 13 now).

Cheers
Russell C.


I am 100% not trying to say anything bad. I am only pointing this out 
because I know two people who went through this, separate cases. You say, 
the custody of the children is just a casual agreement; then say you put a 
statement in your will, that is as much as you can do. Aren't those two 
conflicting statements?

Now please, even in America I do not know what the rights of a step parent 
are, but I'm assuming if you did have more that a casual agreement, and 
then something happened to you, your now wife would get much more 
consideration.

Again, not trying to offend. There are a million reasons that things are 
they way they are, and would continue. But I just want others to always 
think realistically about the future. Not saying you don't! Realistically 
is a bad word, but can't think how to edit it. It's time for bed.

This isn't the same thing, but last year there was an organized group 
charity ride. About two miles from the end, one of the riders went down on 
a bridge. He broke his arm, but at first he was out cold. No one knew who 
he was, he had no info on him. They were able to use his rider number to 
call the ride sponsors, find out who he was, but he was already on the way 
to the hospital before they knew his name, who to contact. Luckily he had 
no medical problems, not like they would give penicillin for a broken arm 
and concussion, but it shows how important it is to think about the future.

Kevin T. - VRWC
As the soapbox is yanked from underneath me
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Re: Salt on your wounds

[Julia Thompson]

Kevin Tarr wrote:
> 
> >  (And this was
> >playground rumor when I was 12 or so, so take it with some NaCl if you
> >are so inclined.)
> >
> > Julia
> 
> I use KCl. Don't know if it's helping, I still get leg cramps.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I stopped getting
leg cramps when I upped my calcium consumption.  (I'm supposed to get at
least 180% of the US recommended daily allowance of calcium each day.) 
Of course, I'm taking a lot of it in the form of calcium-fortified
orange juice, and orange juice also has a decent amount of potassium, so
that might have more to do with it.  Maybe it's both.

I've been very careful about how I stretch -- if I point my toes when I
stretch, I'm a lot more likely to have my calves cramp.  I've trained
myself to point my heel when I stretch my legs, instead.  That's helped
a fair bit.  I'm supposed to be at higher risk of leg cramps with twins,
but I've had significantly fewer with this pregnancy than I did when I
was pregnant with Sammy.  Of course, that's made up for by my feeling
more miserable in other ways.  :P

Julia

Beached Whale Maru
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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[TomFODW]

> Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous statement and the left wing
> media huffs and puffs until they blow the  issue up into whatever slight
> they feel gets them the best press.
> 

So liberals aren't perfect. Never said they are. Although I bet some of the 
statements you characterize as "innocuous" are actually more pernicious than 
you'd like to admit. 



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Salt on your wounds

[Kevin Tarr]

 (And this was
playground rumor when I was 12 or so, so take it with some NaCl if you
are so inclined.)
Julia


I use KCl. Don't know if it's helping, I still get leg cramps.

Kevin T. - VRWC

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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[Kevin Tarr]

At 09:38 PM 7/31/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> Seriously, the ones that get the most attention seem to be more extreme
> one way or another.  That's probably true for any group that gets
> stereotyped.  Except maybe Poles.  I've never met a Pole anywhere close
> to being as stupid as all the jokes imply.  (Where'd they get that
> reputation, anyway?)
>
Except, when an extreme right-winger goes ballistic, nobody but a few dumb
liberals notice. When an extreme leftist mouths off, the right wing media
stooges spew it all over the place like this is representative of all 
mainstream
moderate liberals and progressives. Rush Limbaugh is notorious for taking 
some
deranged wacko feminist and pretending that she speaks for all feminists
everywhere everywhen. And nobody ever calls him or them on this disgusting 
practice.

As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it
originates.


Tom Beck


Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous statement and the left wing 
media huffs and puffs until they blow the  issue up into whatever slight 
they feel gets them the best press.

Kevin T. - VRWC

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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jon Gabriel]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Ronn!Blankenship
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:37 PM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> 
> At 03:02 PM 7/31/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote:
> >>From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> >>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 06:03  pm, Jon Gabriel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>I regularly skip threads completely here I find it impossible to
keep
> >>>up. (I'm now 591 posts behind.)  I'm sure that others do the same.
> >>
> >>I'm 1115 behind  :)  I don't know whether to admit defeat or not...
> >
> >Never give up!  Never surrender!
> >
> >(Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
> 
> 
> Extra points for identifying the writer's religion.
> 

Mine, William Goodall's or David Howard's?

Jon


Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Russell Chapman]

Julia Thompson wrote:

Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
in where they live?
Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.
The courts in most Australian states will listen to children's 
preferences, but they don't get to make the choice.
Same would apply to my kids if something happenned to me - they're 
deemed old enough to know what they want, but not old enough to know 
what's best for them (which is probably a fair attitude).

Cheers
Russell C.
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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[TomFODW]

> Seriously, the ones that get the most attention seem to be more extreme
> one way or another.  That's probably true for any group that gets
> stereotyped.  Except maybe Poles.  I've never met a Pole anywhere close
> to being as stupid as all the jokes imply.  (Where'd they get that
> reputation, anyway?)
> 

Except, when an extreme right-winger goes ballistic, nobody but a few dumb 
liberals notice. When an extreme leftist mouths off, the right wing media 
stooges spew it all over the place like this is representative of all mainstream 
moderate liberals and progressives. Rush Limbaugh is notorious for taking some 
deranged wacko feminist and pretending that she speaks for all feminists 
everywhere everywhen. And nobody ever calls him or them on this disgusting practice.

As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it 
originates. 



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[Julia Thompson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> And before any of the conservatives on this list start to sputter and huff
> and puff that I'm mischaracterizing them - yes. I am. Not every conservative
> acts like I pretend they do above. Big deal. Enough do that I don't think I'm
> being any more unfair than, oh, say, Ann Coulter or any of the sneering lecturing
> pigs on Fox News Channel.

Hey!  Some of them's *hogs*, not *pigs*!  ;)

Seriously, the ones that get the most attention seem to be more extreme
one way or another.  That's probably true for any group that gets
stereotyped.  Except maybe Poles.  I've never met a Pole anywhere close
to being as stupid as all the jokes imply.  (Where'd they get that
reputation, anyway?)

Julia
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DNA extractable from fingerprints

[Robert Seeberger]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030730-040600-4102r

Even if the only evidence forensic analysts can pull from a crime scene is a
fingerprint smudged beyond recognition, a new technique developed by
Canadian scientists soon could harvest enough DNA from the print to produce
a genetic identity.
The novel system can extract DNA in only 15 minutes, even if a print has
been stored for a year. Scientists expect the invention to help
crime-fighters solve mysteries, and already are in talks with the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police. In addition, researchers predict the technology
could be at least twice as cheap as existing DNA collection methods.

"If you wanted to use blood as a source of DNA, you have fear of
contamination, people who don't want to give it, storage issues, and you
have to sign a lot of paperwork to get it," research scientist Maria
Viaznikova of the Ottawa University Heart Institute in Canada told United
Press International. "We can now have DNA reliably and simply with our
method."

Viaznikova said her team's method consistently yields 10 billionths of a
gram of DNA, on average, from a single fingerprint. The findings were
revealed at the American Society for Microbiology's nanotechnology
conference in New York earlier this month. Although 10 "nanograms" might not
sound like much, for DNA analysis, even 0.1 nanogram is enough, Viaznikova
said. "Scientists try not to use less than 5 to 10 nanograms, so this is
fine."

She said forensic scientists have known for about five years that
fingerprints contain DNA. However, commonly used extraction techniques need
several hours or even days of lab work. "We can do it in 15 minutes," she
added.

The new extraction technique is under patent. When compared with existing
methods, "it is at least as twice less expensive, maybe more," Viaznikova
said.

The most immediate application such a technique could find is with
forensics, said molecular biologist Margaret Wallace of John Jay College in
New York and one-time DNA analyst for the city's chief medical examiner's
office.

"It could save a lot of time, particularly given we have this huge backlog
on DNA that needs to be analyzed," Wallace told UPI. "There are hundreds of
thousands of samples that need to be looked at now."

Wallace still wants to know how well the process works on fingerprints
gleaned from a variety of surfaces and kept in a variety of temperature and
humidity conditions. "It's also possible that some people leave more DNA in
their prints than others," she said.

Because the method is so simple and cheap, with far less overhead required
than needle-based DNA sampling, experts say this could help make DNA
gathering a commonplace activity -- thereby also raising privacy issues.

"DNA is unique, extremely revealing about you and your family members,"
privacy specialist Jay Stanley of the American Civil Liberties Union in
Washington, D.C., told UPI. "This advance really highlights the need for
laws to protect the privacy in the face of these kinds of technologies."

Stanley said because genetics experts have told him it inevitably will
become easier to test DNA, "we need legal frameworks to figure out how to
protect privacy in the face of this." For example, silicone chips from
biophysicist Stephen Quake's lab at the California Institute of Technology,
in Pasadena, could in the next 10 years sequence an entire person's genetic
code cheaply and in a few days, he noted.

"I don't think anybody objects to samples from crime scenes. I think using
DNA to catch murderers is a fine thing," Stanley said. "But we need to be
cognizant of greater implications. We're going to be facing issues about how
to keep DNA private from lawyers, governments, insurance companies, even
nosy neighbors. It raises issues of employment discrimination, because
employers have a natural incentive to hire healthy workers, and always have
an incentive to discriminate against you by DNA, as long as health insurance
is provided by the workplace."

He added: "Or think about schoolchildren checking out each other's genetic
profiles, or having profiles posted on the Internet. The fact is, there are
heavy incentives to collect this information."

Electronic Frontier Foundation staff technologist Dan Moniz said he thinks
the technique could be helpful to nab crooks, but he wonders about further
implications in law.

"People already have fingerprints taken of them. Will it just become part of
the standard booking procedure? Will you be notified that they're taking
DNA? Can you refuse to give fingerprints if you don't want DNA taken?" he
asked.

Moniz told UPI there are four directions he would like to see the question
of DNA collection from prints go. "First, I want to know who's using this
technology. I want to be notified right up front, at the police department,
hospital, HMO, anything. No surreptitious extraction," he said.

"I should have a right of refusal and I should receive no special treatment
if I do refuse it," he con

Bulge in lake worries YNP scientists

[Robert Seeberger]

http://www.codyenterprise.com/display/inn_news/news3.txt

Beneath the serene surface of Yellowstone Lake, where death from hypothermia
comes within 30 minutes, seethes a boiling underwater world.

And like a pot too long on the stove, it could boil over, says U.S.
Geological Survey geologist Lisa Morgan, Ph.D., of Colorado.

She and others from the USGS have been studying the hottest hot spot in the
7,731-foot elevation lake, a spot which Morgan has termed an "inflated
plain." It lies south-southwest of Storm Point near Mary Bay, in the
northern end of the lake.

Morgan, representing both the USGS and Yellowstone Volcanic Observatory, is
in the process of mapping the lake floor with seismic reflection images. She
uses a sonar system that emits sound waves. Morgan has taken 240 million
soundings in the last four years.

She has found that temperatures along the inflated plain have been recorded
at about 85 degrees 60 feet down, where the plain bulges up about 100 feet
above the lake floor. (Park spokesman Cheryl Matthews says the lake rarely
reaches more than 66 degrees at the surface by late summer, and is much
colder deeper down.) The inflated plain stretches 2,100 feet - about the
length of seven football fields - across.

"We think this is very young," something that occurred in the last few
years, Morgan said.

"We're thinking this structure could be a precursor to an hydrothermal
explosive event," Morgan said last week. "But we don't think this is a
volcano."

If the bulge should explode, "we think it would create a large crater." But
such an explosion, smaller versions of which created Indian Pond, Duck Lake
and Mary Bay itself, would probably heat up the water temporarily, create
high waves, spew poison gasses and other materials into the lake for a time,
and leave a rimmed underwater crater.

Or it could do nothing.

Explosive events are, of course, not new in Yellowstone. Regional volcanoes
once sent forth material across much of what is now the U.S.

"And Mary Bay is the world's largest hydrothermal explosion crater," Morgan
said. Also lurking under water west of Indian Pond is Elliott's Crater, some
2,400 feet in diameter.

Powerful geologic processes contributed to the unusual shape of Yellowstone
Lake, according to articles in the most recent edition of "Yellowstone
Science," which describes Morgan's study. One of Morgan's objectives is to
understand these processes.

Morgan is returning to Yellowstone in early August to further study the
inflated plain, which she said "showed pretty radical changes" last summer.
She and her USGS team will utilize a raft-like boat that resembles a
high-tech Kon Tiki.

It carries, among other things, a small, red robotic submarine. The "ROV"
will dive down to the underwater structure, land on it, scrape samples of
rock and sand from its surface, and put in place devices that will measure
any further changes to the structure.

By fall, Morgan and her team hope to prepare a "danger assessment"
indicating how likely the plain is to explode, and if it does, what the
scenario might be.

At this point in her work, Morgan has outlined two possibilities for the
plain:


a.. It could do nothing, and "freeze in time," becoming dormant.


a.. It could explode, making a "large crater a couple of thousand feet in
diameter."

If the dome blows, 10-foot waves could wash the lake shore, rocks and pieces
of lake floor could be tossed into the air, and "chemicals containing toxic
materials" could be discharged into the lake.

"There would be lots of water," Morgan said. Not the blue serenity of the
present lake surface, but roiling, spewed-out hot water.

"But we don't think this is a volcano," Morgan said last week. Still, that
possibility is being considered. She said what is causing the bulge is
likely either carbon dioxide gas or steam. "We're trying to put monitoring
equipment on the structure to see changes over time."

"We have no evidence there's any volcanic component" to the bulging dome,
she added.

xponent

Thar She Blows Maru

rob


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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[TomFODW]

> but would start with
> educating people (beginning in elementary school) with
> the hazards associated with certain lifestyle choices
> - and gradually making people responsible for their
> own folly -- we could ~ halve the chronic disease
> burden with lifestyle changes
> 

But that would go against the conservative ethos that people are 100% 
responsible for each and every thing that happens to them in their life and that no 
one can or should do anything about it, except to sneer at and lecture them if 
and when they make choices that the conservatives don't happen to agree with. 
Oh, and to make all of us pray to Jesus Christ even if we don't want to - 
conservatives are very big on that.

And before any of the conservatives on this list start to sputter and huff 
and puff that I'm mischaracterizing them - yes. I am. Not every conservative 
acts like I pretend they do above. Big deal. Enough do that I don't think I'm 
being any more unfair than, oh, say, Ann Coulter or any of the sneering lecturing 
pigs on Fox News Channel.



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Harry Potter 5 (no longer spoiler free)

[Jim Sharkey]

Bryon Daly wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>



>The thing that everyone seemed to overlook about Umbridge is that 
>she actually tried to *kill* Harry, by sending the Dementors after 
>him.  I would think this murder attempt would be treated as a much 
>more serious crime than it was.

You know, that had totally slipped my mind when we were talking about whether or not 
she's a real villain.  Can't believe I forgot that one.

Jim

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:51 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
>
> At 07:42 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >
> >Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
> >in where they live?
> >
> >Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
> >state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.
>
> In some states, that is the age when one can get married.  (Though some
> states have recently been changing the laws which allow that.)
Don't you need parental permission to marry at that young an age?


In most states.

In some parts of Utah, though, the problem is that the parents are members 
of the same group as the old man who wants to take the 14-year-old as #4 or 
#5 . . .



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Doug Pensinger]

Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

4) Jumps into a thread with highly opinionated and/or confrontational 
responses without having read most of the previous responses.




Once again I am assuming from the context that you are addressing me
specifically. so in response.
You shouldn't assume any such thing.  I most certainly did not have 
you in mind.  If you are guilty of the above, I haven't noticed it.

Doug

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Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 7/30/2003 10:20:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> As is usual in the intelligence business, the British said 
> that they can't
> reveal their sources so as to preserve their leads.   
> 
> Now what?

Don't use it in the SOU. You don't insult the british by not using the information. 
But by the way why is it "as is usual"? It would seem to me in something this 
important the british could share their specific information. I would suspect that 
more often than not in situations like this the info would be shared. I would very 
upset to learn that we and our allies shared only conclusions not evidence. 
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Julia Thompson]

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
> 
> At 07:42 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >
> >Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
> >in where they live?
> >
> >Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
> >state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.
> 
> In some states, that is the age when one can get married.  (Though some
> states have recently been changing the laws which allow that.)

Don't you need parental permission to marry at that young an age?  I
think the law in New Hampshire was that a girl could be married at 13
with her parents' permission, but just going out and getting married on
her own she had to be older.  Not sure how much older.  (And this was
playground rumor when I was 12 or so, so take it with some NaCl if you
are so inclined.)

Julia
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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jim Sharkey]

Jan Coffey wrote:
>It is, however, important to know that %20 of the world population 
>is far enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.

Where does this statistic come from?

Jim

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:42 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
Russell Chapman wrote:
>
> Julia Thompson wrote:
>
> >Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:
> >
> >Woman & man marry
> >Woman & man have baby
> >Woman & man get divorced
> >Woman gets custody
> >Woman marries another man
> >Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
> >
> >Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?
> >
> This is something that keeps me awake at night... My ex-wife is a
> fruit-loop who has no concept of responsibility at any level, and can't
> cope with the children for more than an overnight visit every few
> months. My second wife, despite having been thrown in the deep end with
> no preparation and all the challenges that step-parents face, is a
> wonderful mother who would do (and does) anything and everything for the
> children.
> My custody of the children is just a casual agreement between us, there
> is no court order.
> If something happenned to me, the default position of the authorities
> would be to return the children to their natural mother, and her family
> would want that to happen (my family would not!). I have a clause in my
> will that basically begs the authorities to leave the children with
> their step mother, which they may take note of, but that is as much as I
> can do. Obviously, as the children get older the risk is less and less,
> but when they were 6 it was a real concern about which I had no control.
> (they're 10 & 13 now).
Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
in where they live?
Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.


In some states, that is the age when one can get married.  (Though some 
states have recently been changing the laws which allow that.)

--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Lance!

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:32 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
>
> At 09:33 AM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
>
> >I have an ambivalent attitude about baseball.  Trying not to get sucked
> >into the whole "Who's ahead -- the Red Sox or the Yankees?" thing that I
> >tormented myself with in college, and if I start paying too much
> >attention to baseball, that's going to happen.  I'll watch hockey, but
> >I'm never glued to it for 3 whole periods.  (I was watching it a lot
> >more when Sammy was under a year old and still being breastfed a fair
> >bit -- nothing like a sporting event when you're sitting there with a
> >baby attached to your nipple.)
>
> Yes.  I know that whenever I'm at the stadium, being able to watch the
> section composed of breast feeding mothers adds so much to the 
experience . . .

OK, just for that, I'm going to go to a Round Rock Express game next
year with the *intent* of breastfeeding one baby or the other during the
game.  ;)
Hey, if you can get take-out from Hooters to bring back to your seat

Julia

but the take-outs don't include the waitresses




I don't want to see anything that was taken out of a Hooters' waitress, 
either . . .



Silicone Makes For Silly Cones Maru



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Julia Thompson]

Russell Chapman wrote:
> 
> Julia Thompson wrote:
> 
> >Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:
> >
> >Woman & man marry
> >Woman & man have baby
> >Woman & man get divorced
> >Woman gets custody
> >Woman marries another man
> >Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
> >
> >Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?
> >
> This is something that keeps me awake at night... My ex-wife is a
> fruit-loop who has no concept of responsibility at any level, and can't
> cope with the children for more than an overnight visit every few
> months. My second wife, despite having been thrown in the deep end with
> no preparation and all the challenges that step-parents face, is a
> wonderful mother who would do (and does) anything and everything for the
> children.
> My custody of the children is just a casual agreement between us, there
> is no court order.
> If something happenned to me, the default position of the authorities
> would be to return the children to their natural mother, and her family
> would want that to happen (my family would not!). I have a clause in my
> will that basically begs the authorities to leave the children with
> their step mother, which they may take note of, but that is as much as I
> can do. Obviously, as the children get older the risk is less and less,
> but when they were 6 it was a real concern about which I had no control.
> (they're 10 & 13 now).

Is there some age at which children of divorced parents can have a say
in where they live?

Various states in the US have that, and the age varies from state to
state.  It's 14 *somewhere*.  Don't know anything beyond that.

Julia
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Russell Chapman]

Julia Thompson wrote:

Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:

Woman & man marry
Woman & man have baby
Woman & man get divorced
Woman gets custody
Woman marries another man
Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?

This is something that keeps me awake at night... My ex-wife is a 
fruit-loop who has no concept of responsibility at any level, and can't 
cope with the children for more than an overnight visit every few 
months. My second wife, despite having been thrown in the deep end with 
no preparation and all the challenges that step-parents face, is a 
wonderful mother who would do (and does) anything and everything for the 
children.
My custody of the children is just a casual agreement between us, there 
is no court order.
If something happenned to me, the default position of the authorities 
would be to return the children to their natural mother, and her family 
would want that to happen (my family would not!). I have a clause in my 
will that basically begs the authorities to leave the children with 
their step mother, which they may take note of, but that is as much as I 
can do. Obviously, as the children get older the risk is less and less, 
but when they were 6 it was a real concern about which I had no control. 
(they're 10 & 13 now).

Cheers
Russell C.
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Re: Lance!

[Julia Thompson]

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
> 
> At 09:33 AM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
> 
> >I have an ambivalent attitude about baseball.  Trying not to get sucked
> >into the whole "Who's ahead -- the Red Sox or the Yankees?" thing that I
> >tormented myself with in college, and if I start paying too much
> >attention to baseball, that's going to happen.  I'll watch hockey, but
> >I'm never glued to it for 3 whole periods.  (I was watching it a lot
> >more when Sammy was under a year old and still being breastfed a fair
> >bit -- nothing like a sporting event when you're sitting there with a
> >baby attached to your nipple.)
> 
> Yes.  I know that whenever I'm at the stadium, being able to watch the
> section composed of breast feeding mothers adds so much to the experience . . .

OK, just for that, I'm going to go to a Round Rock Express game next
year with the *intent* of breastfeeding one baby or the other during the
game.  ;)

Hey, if you can get take-out from Hooters to bring back to your seat 

Julia

but the take-outs don't include the waitresses
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Julia Thompson]

Doug Pensinger wrote:
> 
> Julia Thompson wrote:
> > Jan Coffey wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
> >>thread is titled?
> >
> >
> > Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
> >
> > 1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
> > takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.
> >
> > 2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way they do, and has the same
> > strengths and weaknesses, as well.
> >
> > 3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some particular issue.
> >
> > That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?
> 
> 4) Jumps into a thread with highly opinionated and/or confrontational
> responses without having read most of the previous responses.

Good one.

That plus Jean-Louis's suggestion of "When reading a post that describes
situation similar to one's own, subscriber assumes post is a personal
attack" makes 5, looks like.

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:20 AM 8/1/03 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:

Loo-tin-at Ker-nal.
Leftennant Kernal for those of us who recognise Queen Elizabeth II.

If Lieutenant is a french word, we say leftennant and USA'ns say 
Lootenant, what do the French say?


"oui -- soo -- ren -- der"

;-)



-- Ronn!  :)

Professional Smart-Aleck.  Do Not Attempt.

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Julia Thompson]

Russell Chapman wrote:
> 
> Jon Gabriel wrote:
> 
> >   If it were me, I'd give Ritu the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Conversely, if we are going to start pulling up people every time they
> make a spelling mistake or a typing error, it's going to degenerate very
> very quickly. I know Ritu is very proud of her heritage and all that,
> but it was a simple error that we all make every day - maybe Jan
> deserved the benefit of the doubt as well.

1)  What he said.

2)  I'd give Ritu the benefit of the doubt anyway, but that's just
'cause I've read all her posts.  :)

3)  I'm one of those people who doesn't mind spelling errors pointed
out; I spell fairly well and keep a dictionary at hand so I can
double-check spelling (and it turns out that some of the words I'm
checking, I would have gotten wrong with it).  There are a few others
who don't mind it, as well.  But when in doubt, maybe ask off-list how
the poster feels about corrections to spelling.

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Julia Thompson]

Jan Coffey wrote:
> 
> --- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Jan Coffey wrote:
> >
> > > Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
> > > thread is titled?
> >
> > Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
> >
> 
> About the article or the sidetrack?

About my new subject line.  This sub-thread isn't titled for any
existing article.  :)  I figured we could write our own as a
collaborative effort, maybe.
 
And to answer all the questions which I cut, I was *not* thinking about
you specifically about any particular one, except maybe the "chip on the
shoulder", and you are not by *any* means the only one to display such
here.

Sorry if you took it personally -- I didn't mean for you to do so.  I
was just taking examples of the most negative and thread-derailing sorts
of behavior I could recall in the past couple of years or so.

Julia
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Re: on pryor nomination [L3]

[Deborah Harrell]

--- The Fool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/B?r108:@FIELD(FLD003+s)[EMAIL 
PROTECTED](DDATE+20030730)

 
> The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Illinois. 
> 
>Mr. DURBIN. Mr. President, to those of us who
> have been given this
> great honor to serve in the Senate, there is a
> moment when we are asked
> to take the oath of office. In taking that oath of
> office, we swear to
> uphold one document. That document, of course, is
> the Constitution of the United States of America. 
> 
>We are not asked our religion, nor our beliefs in
> our religion. We are
> only asked if we will take an oath to God that we
> will uphold this
> Constitution. All of us take it very seriously and
> all of us take the
> wording of this Constitution very seriously because
> within this small
> document are words that have endured for more than
> two centuries... 
 
> ...Those are very absolute and clear words. I am a
> Catholic, born and
> raised. My mother and father were Catholics. My
> children have been raised in the Catholic faith... 
 
>John Kennedy, a Catholic, went to Texas to a
> Baptist convention to
> tell those gathered that his first allegiance as
> President was to the
> United States and not to any religion. He said: I
> believe in America
>where the separation of church and State is absolute.

 
>But for us to be told repeatedly by the other
> side of the aisle that
> to oppose William Pryor is to be against him because
> he is Catholic is
> just plain wrong, and I resent it. I resent it
> because, frankly, there
> are many reasons to oppose his nomination--because
> of his political beliefs. 
 
>At his confirmation hearing, Senator Feinstein
> asked him to explain his statement that: 
> 
>. the challenge of the next millennium will
> be to preserve the
> American experiment by restoring its Christian
> perspective.
> 
>He ducked the question. 
> 
>I think if you are going to serve this Nation and
> you are going to
> serve this Constitution, you have to have some
> sensitivity to the
> diversity of religious belief in this country. To
> argue that this is a
> Christian nation--it may have been in its origin but
> today it is a nation
> of great diversity. That diversity is protected by
> this Constitution.
> Obviously, Mr. Pryor has some problems in grasping
> that concept. 
 
>There was one case involving inmates' rights
> which I thought was
> particularly noteworthy. He has been a vocal
> opponent of the right of
> criminal defendants. In Hope v. Pelzer, Attorney
> General Pryor vigorously
> defended Alabama's practice of handcuffing prison
> inmates to outdoor
> hitching posts for hours without water or access to
> bathrooms. The
> Supreme Court rejected Mr. Pryor's arguments citing
> the ``obvious cruelty
> inherent in the practice,'' and calling the practice
> ``antithetical to
> human dignity'' and circumstances ``both degrading
> and dangerous.'' 
 
>I hope and pray that before we utter the next
> sentence in relation to
> the Pryor nomination that each of us who has taken
> an oath to uphold this
> Constitution will stop and read article VI: 
> 
>No religious test shall ever be required as a
> qualification to any
> office or public trust in the United States. 
> 
>Those words have guided our Nation for over 200
> years. They should guide each of us in good
>conscience. 


There's one man who understands how important the
separation of church and state are to this country's
success - and survival.

Debbi

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Russell Chapman]

Jan Coffey wrote:

Loo-tin-at Ker-nal. 

Leftennant Kernal for those of us who recognise Queen Elizabeth II.

If Lieutenant is a french word, we say leftennant and USA'ns say 
Lootenant, what do the French say?

Cheers
Russell C.
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 05:09 PM 7/31/03 -0700, you wrote:

--- Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 04:29 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > It is, however, important to know ...dyslexia...> > > >
> >
> >
> >And if your spelling is that bad, and clarification is asked for -- at
> >least you know that someone wants to understand your point better, and
> >will appreciate the clarification once you give it, so be as gracious as
> >you can.  (Being gracious is not a strong suit of some folks here; it's
> >one thing I know *I'm* working on improving.)
>
>
>
> And, FWIW, whenever I ask Jan for clarification, it is because I really
> didn't understand — which may very well be more my fault than anyone else's
>
> — but really want to know.
As long as we are on the subject - French words give me the most difficulty.
to the point that I often try and abbreviate rather than phoneticize.
To answer your question:

Loo-tin-at Ker-nal.

I was referring to the guy who wrote the article for which this thread is 
named.


OK.

The military rank is spelled "Colonel" (even though it is pronounced the 
same way as a "kernel" of corn) and abbreviated "Col."

In the US Army, "Lieutenant Colonel" is usually abbreviated "LTC" (all 
caps), while in the US Air Force, the usual abbreviation found in official 
documents would be "Lt. Col."

Then there are the English, who pronounce "lieutenant" as if it were 
spelled "left-tennant" (though they spell it the same way as in the US) . . .



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jan Coffey]

--- Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 04:29 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > It is, however, important to know ...dyslexia...> > > >
> >
> >
> >And if your spelling is that bad, and clarification is asked for -- at
> >least you know that someone wants to understand your point better, and
> >will appreciate the clarification once you give it, so be as gracious as
> >you can.  (Being gracious is not a strong suit of some folks here; it's
> >one thing I know *I'm* working on improving.)
> 
> 
> 
> And, FWIW, whenever I ask Jan for clarification, it is because I really 
> didn't understand — which may very well be more my fault than anyone else's
> 
> — but really want to know.

As long as we are on the subject - French words give me the most difficulty.
to the point that I often try and abbreviate rather than phoneticize.

To answer your question: 

Loo-tin-at Ker-nal. 

I was referring to the guy who wrote the article for which this thread is named.

=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jan Coffey]

--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Julia Thompson wrote:
> > Jan Coffey wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>Now, would anyone like to actually talk about the article for which this
> >>thread is titled?
> > 
> > 
> > Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
> > 
> > 1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
> > takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.
> > 
> > 2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way they do, and has the same
> > strengths and weaknesses, as well.
> > 
> > 3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some particular issue.
> > 
> > That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?
> 
> 
> 4) Jumps into a thread with highly opinionated and/or confrontational 
> responses without having read most of the previous responses.
> 

Once again I am assuming from the context that you are addressing me
specifically. so in response.

I am generally not very opinionated, in fact I am very comfortable running
through an issue in a state of flux. Making points from all sides, and
changing my "running meeter" of sincerity. I.E. my opinions (like many on
this list BTW) don't stay the same from day to day, and seldom fit nicely
into "the box".

Confrontational? hmmm? Likely to be disagreed with maybe, but confrontational
holds a connotation that I have that response because I am looking to start a
fight, or enjoy argument for argument's sake. And that just isn't the case. 

Without reading all of the posts Well I sometimes do get behind and try
and catch up and jump in the middle of something, but I also generally do
read all of the posts up to the point where I am responding. The posts which
come afterwords are future posts to the ones that I am responding to, even
though they have already been made. If you read the list in linear fashion
this could be construed as you say. However, if you read it in thread
fashion, then you would see that this it is not the case.

=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: Lance!

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 09:33 AM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:

I have an ambivalent attitude about baseball.  Trying not to get sucked
into the whole "Who's ahead -- the Red Sox or the Yankees?" thing that I
tormented myself with in college, and if I start paying too much
attention to baseball, that's going to happen.  I'll watch hockey, but
I'm never glued to it for 3 whole periods.  (I was watching it a lot
more when Sammy was under a year old and still being breastfed a fair
bit -- nothing like a sporting event when you're sitting there with a
baby attached to your nipple.)


Yes.  I know that whenever I'm at the stadium, being able to watch the 
section composed of breast feeding mothers adds so much to the experience . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

Professional Smart-Aleck.  Do Not Attempt.

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 04:29 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
>
> --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It is, however, important to know that %20 of the
> > world population is far
> > enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> > The inability to spell
> > properly in an illogical system such as English
> > should never be used for
> > ridicule, especialy not to adress ones inteligence.
> >
> >Jan William Coffey
>
> This'll probably make Jan feel worse, but a
> neurologist friend of mine says that I'm a textbook
> case of someone who is mildly dyslexic - that's not a
> formal diagnosis, but I guess a neurologist is
> qualified to give an expert opinion.  So there's
> probably more than one on the list.
Dan is dyslexic.  When he's writing by hand, he'll write the letters in
a word in the wrong order sometimes -- but he figured out how to
compensate by moving the position of the writing instrument back and
forth so the word comes *out* spelled correctly.
He was never diagnosed.  Managed to compensate to the point where they
wouldn't have diagnosed it.  Realized it later.  His father is also
somewhat dyslexic.  Never stopped him from being a good engineer.
Now, I think the thing to do when you encounter someone with atrocious
spelling is, try to figure everything out from context; if the context
leaves a word or two in an ambiguous state, ask the poster what they
meant.  Paraphrase the two (or more) possible meanings of the sentence,
and ask which one they meant.  And don't be mean about it.
And if your spelling is that bad, and clarification is asked for -- at
least you know that someone wants to understand your point better, and
will appreciate the clarification once you give it, so be as gracious as
you can.  (Being gracious is not a strong suit of some folks here; it's
one thing I know *I'm* working on improving.)


And, FWIW, whenever I ask Jan for clarification, it is because I really 
didn't understand — which may very well be more my fault than anyone else's 
— but really want to know.



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The Case for a Marriage Amendment to the Constitution

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 04:31 PM 7/31/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote:

> --- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
>
> > ...my thinking has gone off on a bit of a tangent:
> >
> > In Texas, (and I have to assume that things are done
> > in a similar fashion in
> > the rest of the US) when there is a divorce, a
> > "child of tender years" (age
> > 9 and under in Texas) is automatically made the
> > custody of the mother.
> > The argument being that a young child needs a mother
> > on a daily basis more than he/she needs a father.
> >
> > This brings questions to mind immediately:
> >
> > * If homosexual men are allowed to adopt children
> > under 10 years of age,
> > will this not constitute prejudice against divorced
> > heterosexual men?
Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:

Woman & man marry
Woman & man have baby
Woman & man get divorced
Woman gets custody
Woman marries another man
Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?


One factor which might (or "might should" -- who knows what the courts 
would do) have some bearing is what the child's age was when the divorce 
occurred.  If the child was very young at the time of the divorce, the only 
"Dad" s/he may have ever known is the stepfather.  OTOH, if the child was 5 
years and 11 months old when the divorce became final and the mom remarried 
. . .



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jan Coffey]

--- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> > 
> > --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It is, however, important to know that %20 of the
> > > world population is far
> > > enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> > > The inability to spell
> > > properly in an illogical system such as English
> > > should never be used for
> > > ridicule, especialy not to adress ones inteligence.
> > >
> > >Jan William Coffey
> > 
> > This'll probably make Jan feel worse, but a
> > neurologist friend of mine says that I'm a textbook
> > case of someone who is mildly dyslexic - that's not a
> > formal diagnosis, but I guess a neurologist is
> > qualified to give an expert opinion.  So there's
> > probably more than one on the list.
> 
> Dan is dyslexic.  When he's writing by hand, he'll write the letters in
> a word in the wrong order sometimes -- but he figured out how to
> compensate by moving the position of the writing instrument back and
> forth so the word comes *out* spelled correctly.
> 

Transposing letters is not what happens when someone is dyslexic. It is most
gernelay a case of the brain working faster than the hand can write. While
this is generaly a -feature- that dyslexics are more likely to have, the
reason that they spell incorectly or have dificulty reading has very very
little or nothing at all to do with word or letter order, or word or letter
orientation.

Most dyslexic children do not at first understand that letter orientation in
2 demensions is important. But this dificulty goes away as soon as the
2d-ness of letters is explained.

That view of dyslexia is, in part, what leads to much confusion. The real
dificulty has to do with phenomes and the representation of those phenomes.

I helped create the following example for a learning center. It is intended
to help non-dyslexics understand how a dyslexic views the system of symbolic
language we use.

It is for most a very frustraiting puzzle, and while I can not show it in
this format with the colours that were intended, and while the lack of colour
leaves the puzzle a bit open, I think you will get the idea.

These letters represent english sounds, and corospond to a colour which will
be used as the key.

j - orange  sh - red
i - bluee - purple
l - green   r - yellow
i - brown   u - white
v - black   n - aqua
s - pink
t - baby blue
oo - bright green

the sentecne reads:

[orngeish red] [bluish purple] [yelowish green] [tan] [very dark blueish
green] [pink] [baby blue] [bright green almost white] [green] [purpleish
blue] [cream] [very dark greenish blue so dark it is almost black] 


Translate the sentence into english.





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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[Deborah Harrell]

--- The Fool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jul2003/tc20030731_6139_tc073.htm
> 
> PRIVACY MATTERS 
> By Jane Black 
> 
> Sharper Tools for Discriminatory Pricing
> Expert Andrew Odlyzko explains how tech advances are
> making it much
> easier to charge one price for you and another for
> your neighbor 
> 
> 
> Why do corporations want your personal data? The
> simple answer, according
> to Andrew Odlyzko, the director of the University of
> Minnesota's Digital
> Technology Center, is that such information is the
> key to a holy grail of
> capitalism: discriminatory pricing. 
> 
> Economic theory posits that price discrimination --
> where companies
> charge individuals based on their ability to pay and
> their value as a
> customer -- is desirable since it makes trade more
> efficient. Yet it
> rankles consumers, who perceive differential pricing
> as unfair. The fact
> that business travelers, whose corporations can
> arguably afford it, pay
> more for airline seats than a vacationer has made
> air travel more popular
> and routine. At the same time, the price
> discrimination that charges two
> people different prices for the same class of
> service infuriates those who pay more.
 

And on the other hand, there's charging more to the
less-fortunate:

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1527009,00.html
"...Uninsured patients don't get the same discounts
hospitals give to managed-care plans, and these
patients often pay far more for the same medical care.
The Denver Post reported in January that uninsured
patients in the city can pay up to four times as much
for the same services..."

With medical insurance costs prohibitive to so many of
the working poor, they're caught between sacrificing
to pay the premiums, or paying out the wazoo if they
have to be hospitalized (or are taken to the ER).

The self-insured also pay much higher prices:
http://www.businessword.com/pMachine/comments/476_0_1_0_C/

Debbi
who doesn't have the answers, but would start with
educating people (beginning in elementary school) with
the hazards associated with certain lifestyle choices
- and gradually making people responsible for their
own folly -- we could ~ halve the chronic disease
burden with lifestyle changes

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 03:02 PM 7/31/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote:
From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 06:03  pm, Jon Gabriel wrote:
I regularly skip threads completely here I find it impossible to keep 
up. (I'm now 591 posts behind.)  I'm sure that others do the same.
I'm 1115 behind  :)  I don't know whether to admit defeat or not...
Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)


Extra points for identifying the writer's religion.



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jan Coffey]

--- Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It is, however, important to know that %20 of the
> > world population is far
> > enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> > The inability to spell
> > properly in an illogical system such as English
> > should never be used for
> > ridicule, especially not to address ones intelligence. 
> >
> >Jan William Coffey
> 
> This'll probably make Jan feel worse, but a
> neurologist friend of mine says that I'm a textbook
> case of someone who is mildly dyslexic - that's not a
> formal diagnosis, but I guess a neurologist is
> qualified to give an expert opinion.  So there's
> probably more than one on the list.
> 

Why would it make me feel worse? Because I spell worse than anyone else? I
always do, I am on the extreme end of the axis. What does tend to irritate me
is when people point to someone who is mildly dyslexic and use them as an
example of someone with dyslexia who "has learned to spell". And then make
the leap to say that I, and other dyslexics like me are lazy.

That would be like pointing to someone who is hard of hearing and saying that
since they can hear a little bit, that all deaf people would be able to hear
better if they just tried harder.

Let me put it this way, If anyone can tell me exactly how they remember what
the proper spelling of words are, then I could learn it. Not just how you
learned, but the mechanical process you use. 

It is highly unlikely that anyone will be able to do this. The part of the
brain most use to remember proper spellings is automatic. It works in much
the same way that your hand will recoil from a hot surface. And that same
part of the dyslexic brain doesn't do the same thing. It's not damaged, it
does work, it just doesn't do that process. 

The non-dyslexic doesn't require language to follow a logical or organized
set of rules because the part of their brain they use to process the language
doesn't work that way. The dyslexic requires a logical set of rules. They
don't remember disjointed facts, they remember systems, abstractions, and
connections. If the rules are broken (as they are in most natural languages),
then no system will fit, and what you get is a somewhat chaotic response.

I don't feel sorry for myself or bad because I spell poorly, I simply don't
believe that %20 of the population should be subject to harassment because of
their genetics.

If %20 of people have (at least some) difficulty with the way Language is
constructed, and yet do not have difficulty with any other system, then it is
language, and not the dyslexic which is broken.





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   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: School adopts unconstitutional bible classes

[Ronn!Blankenship]

From <>:

"Released Time Religious Education was started in 1914 by a public school 
superintendent in Gary, Indiana, and was approved by the U.S. Supreme Court 
in 1952."



At 06:11 PM 7/11/03 -0500, The Fool wrote:
http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/071103/met_174-8955.000.shtml

School board approves Bible class

Web posted Thursday, July 10, 2003
By Greg Rickabaugh | Staff Writer
An off-campus Christian education program was approved for a full year
Thursday for one Richmond County school, but some school board members
have growing concerns about the controversial course.
[snip for brevity]




--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 01:28 PM 7/31/03 -0300, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
I've seen some maps of the Milky Way, and the mapmakers
usually don't bother to orient it. When we see it from
the Galactic North Pole, does it look like something
that is rotating clockwise or counterclockwise?


The normal direction of rotation is in the sense that the spiral arms would 
seem to be winding up tighter, e.g.:

  <———

/¯¯\
   /\
  |   /¯\
  |  |   |
  |   \_§¯\  |
   \   | |
 \/  |
 \  /
  \/
   ———>

(Try looking at that in a fixed-width font.)

However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates 
"backwards":
<>


[I guess the spiral arms would rotate faster
closer to the center]


No!

<>

In fact, the fact that the rotation curve is nearly flat is one of the main 
reasons astronomers must assume the existence of dark matter:

<>



-- Ronn! :)

Ronn Blankenship
Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science
University of Montevallo
Montevallo, AL
Disclaimer:  Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained 
herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the 
official position of the University of Montevallo.

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Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile

[Deborah Harrell]

> Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Jon Gabriel wrote:
> >>From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

[Jon or Ronn! I think posted:]
>>>http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/07/28/pedophile/index.html
> >>>"The man had an egg-sized brain tumor pressing on
> the right frontal 
> >>>lobe. When surgeons removed it, the lewd behavior
> and pedophilia faded away...
 
> >>>Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, a psychiatrist at the
> Baylor College of Medicine 
> >>>who specializes in behavioral changes associated
> with brain disorders, 
> >>>also has seen the way brain tumors can bend a
> person's behavior.  "This 
> >>>tells us something about being human, doesn't
> it?" Yudofsky said. If 
> >>>one's actions are governed by how well the brain
> is working, "does it 
> >>>mean we have less free will than we think?"

Frontal lobe tumors can be clinically 'silent' for
years, or they can cause subtle -> profound behavioral
and personality changes - this is not a new finding. 
Although the pedophilia effect is, AFAIK.

 
> >>So what do we do to protect society from those who
> commit heinous crimes 
> >>where either (1) no organic problem can be found,
> (2) an organic problem 
> >>is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or
> (3) an organic problem is 
>>>found and treated, but the behavior does not
change?
> >
> >Well, in the case of pedophiles, that would be:
> >
> >1) Firing Squad
> >2) Firing Squad
> >3) Castration, then Firing Squad
> >
> >Yes, I'm serious.  I think they're repulsive.
> 
> I think we agree on that.

Think I said the much the same last year.

> >To answer your question in a different way, I
> suppose the solution may 
> >just be to give people a test to see if they have a
> tumor that, if 
> >removed, may cure them.  If they don't, prosecute.
> >
> >If no other medical condition has been found to
> conclusively cause 
> >aberrant behavior of this type then the theory that
> one might is probably legally irrelevant.
 

I'm sure some lawyer somewhere will try, though.
 
> Here's the COW, as I see it:
> 
> In many jurisdictions, one can be found "not guilty
> due to mental defect or 
> disease" (or words to that effect), i.e., what is
> often referred to as the 
> "insanity defense."  Let's suppose a pedophile, or a
> murderer, or a  heinous crime of your choice here> is found to have
> a brain tumor (or other 
>clearly diagnosable organic brain dysfunction). Do
we:
> 
> (a)  declare him "not guilty" due to his illness and
> let him go because legally he is not guilty of
>anything?

Not without the offending condition being treated; if
it's untreatable, he's incarcerated as criminally
insane -- and never leaves unless a cure is later
discovered -- which was one of your options:
 
> (b) or submit to 
> treatment for the illness, and if the illness cannot
> be treatedcommit him to a secure mental
> institution for at least the 
> same amount of time, or until such time as he does
> respond to 
> treatment?  (BTW, how do you tell for sure if a
> pedophile has really been 
> cured except by letting him out and observing that
> he does not re-offend?)

There is no other sure way, unfortunately.
 
> While I would be inclined toward something like (b)
> (IANAL so don't yell at 
> me if I have put some of it incorrectly), I expect
> that many will say 
> either (1) "He's been found ‘not guilty’, so legally
> he should be free to 
> go," or (2) "Mentally ill people should not be
> imprisoned like common 
> criminals," or something of that sort.  Do we need
> to change the laws to 
> allow for a verdict of "guilty but insane" which
> would require the person 
> to be confined for the protection of society until
> he is no longer a danger 
> and receive treatment if any is available? 

Yes.  However I can see a huge potential for abuse by
'the system' here.  Oversight or otherwise independent
committees would have to be created.

> In the latter case, do we make 
> these people guinea pigs for experimental
> "treatments" which may or may not 
> cure their problem (although there certainly are
> "treatments" which will 
> cause them to no longer be a danger to society:  a
> radical prefrontal 
> lobotomy, frex, though the result of such an extreme
> "treatment" may well 
> be that they will have to be institutionalized for
> the rest of their lives 
> because they are no longer able to function well
> enough to care for themselves), or what?

Mmm, the thought of such "experimental treatments"
makes my blood run cold.  The problem with offering
these people a choice between potentially curative
therapy (which I am assuming carries significant risk
to the offender, b/c if there was low risk then I
wouldn't object strongly to it - just as we require
jailed inmates with TB to take anti-tuberculous
medication for the protection of the prison
population), and lifelong incarceration, is that they
are likely not competent to make such decisions;  they
would have to have medical-legal
guardians/power-of-

Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Doug Pensinger]

Julia Thompson wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:


Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
thread is titled?


Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:

1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.
2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way they do, and has the same
strengths and weaknesses, as well.
3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some particular issue.

That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?


4) Jumps into a thread with highly opinionated and/or confrontational 
responses without having read most of the previous responses.

Doug

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jan Coffey]

--- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jan Coffey wrote:
> 
> > Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
> > thread is titled?
> 
> Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
> 

About the article or the sidetrack?

> 1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
> takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.

Uh? hmmm? I don't remember doing that, why do you say that?
 
> 2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way they do, and has the same
> strengths and weaknesses, as well.

I most certainly never do that. you must be talking to someone
else?...bafeled.
 
> 3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some particular issue.

Ok, that shew fits. Yes it seems that I do, but you know, most of us do don't
we? (The Human most of us in addition to the Dyslexic most of us). If every
time you made a post on this list you were acosted by the spelling police,
you might have a chip on your shoulder as well. Wait, let me make it more
clear, what if every time -you- made a post, your comments (whether they be
agreed with or not) were ignored, and instead someone steped in with some
snide dig on your [gender]?

Or any other [feature] you posses.
 
Wouldn't you have a chip on your shoulder after a while as well? You know,
having a chip on your shoulder doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you.

> That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?
> 
> (Of course, that doesn't cover *subscribers* so much as *participants*
> -- and you don't really participate much if you're 6 months behind, do
> you?)
> 
>   Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Russell Chapman]

Jon Gabriel wrote:

  If it were me, I'd give Ritu the benefit of the doubt.
Conversely, if we are going to start pulling up people every time they 
make a spelling mistake or a typing error, it's going to degenerate very 
very quickly. I know Ritu is very proud of her heritage and all that, 
but it was a simple error that we all make every day - maybe Jan 
deserved the benefit of the doubt as well.

Cheers
Russell C.
(and if I've made a typo in this, just forgive me my sins and move on...)
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 05:09 PM 7/30/03 -0700, Jan Coffey wrote:
There are dangers there. Take these seven factors and turn them around. Some
of them will not sound so pleasing once you get under the surface and down to
the "WHY" the Lt. Cln. addresses.


Sorry, "Lt. Cln." = ?  "Light Clinton"?  "Lieutenant Colon"?



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

Jan Coffey wrote:

> Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
> thread is titled?
At 16:25 2003-07-31 -0500, Julia wrote:
Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:

1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.
Would this habit include "When reading a post that describes situation
similar to one's own, subscriber assumes post is a personal attack" ?
Jean-Louis "guilty" Couturier 

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

At 16:31 2003-07-31 -0500, Julia wrote:
Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:

Woman & man marry
Woman & man have baby
Woman & man get divorced
Woman gets custody
Woman marries another man
Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old
Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?

Julia
Exactly the kind of situation which stresses the point that there
shouldn't be mandatory rules in custody cases.  The questions that
need to be answered before a case like this could be decided would
include:
How involved in the child's life were both fathers?
Does the child have any stepsiblings?  On which side?
Family situations can get VERY complicated.  Mine was, let's say,
eventful.
Jean-Louis 

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Julia Thompson]

> --- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > ...my thinking has gone off on a bit of a tangent:
> >
> > In Texas, (and I have to assume that things are done
> > in a similar fashion in
> > the rest of the US) when there is a divorce, a
> > "child of tender years" (age
> > 9 and under in Texas) is automatically made the
> > custody of the mother.
> > The argument being that a young child needs a mother
> > on a daily basis more than he/she needs a father.
> >
> > This brings questions to mind immediately:
> >
> > * If homosexual men are allowed to adopt children
> > under 10 years of age,
> > will this not constitute prejudice against divorced
> > heterosexual men?

Just thought of a scenario not handled by this:

Woman & man marry
Woman & man have baby
Woman & man get divorced
Woman gets custody
Woman marries another man
Woman is killed in an accident when child is 6 years old

Who gets primary custody at *this* point?  The bio-dad or the step-dad?

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Julia Thompson]

Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> 
> --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It is, however, important to know that %20 of the
> > world population is far
> > enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> > The inability to spell
> > properly in an illogical system such as English
> > should never be used for
> > ridicule, especialy not to adress ones inteligence.
> >
> >Jan William Coffey
> 
> This'll probably make Jan feel worse, but a
> neurologist friend of mine says that I'm a textbook
> case of someone who is mildly dyslexic - that's not a
> formal diagnosis, but I guess a neurologist is
> qualified to give an expert opinion.  So there's
> probably more than one on the list.

Dan is dyslexic.  When he's writing by hand, he'll write the letters in
a word in the wrong order sometimes -- but he figured out how to
compensate by moving the position of the writing instrument back and
forth so the word comes *out* spelled correctly.

He was never diagnosed.  Managed to compensate to the point where they
wouldn't have diagnosed it.  Realized it later.  His father is also
somewhat dyslexic.  Never stopped him from being a good engineer.

Now, I think the thing to do when you encounter someone with atrocious
spelling is, try to figure everything out from context; if the context
leaves a word or two in an ambiguous state, ask the poster what they
meant.  Paraphrase the two (or more) possible meanings of the sentence,
and ask which one they meant.  And don't be mean about it.

And if your spelling is that bad, and clarification is asked for -- at
least you know that someone wants to understand your point better, and
will appreciate the clarification once you give it, so be as gracious as
you can.  (Being gracious is not a strong suit of some folks here; it's
one thing I know *I'm* working on improving.)

Julia
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Re: Lance!

[Julia Thompson]

"Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> > Hate football, hate
> > watching it.  I'd rather get a boil lanced than watch football.  My
> > wife and kids are the same, and I'll do my best to keep them pure,
> > thankyouverymuch.
> 
> Of course, it goes without saying that I'm not going to stop others
> from enjoying football.  To each his own, eh?

OK, if Thanksgiving is at our house and you want to come over to scarf
down some really good cornbread dressing, just stay out of the living
room.  If you hang around the breakfast nook and keep anyone in the
kitchen company, you'll have made at least one friend.  :)  (And if you
offer to help so that if someone in the kitchen wanted to be watching
the game, they could, someone would be *really* happy.)

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Julia Thompson]

Jan Coffey wrote:

> Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
> thread is titled?

Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:

1)  Automatically assumes that anyone disagreeing on a particular point
takes the *extreme* position in the direction of the disagreement.

2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way they do, and has the same
strengths and weaknesses, as well.

3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some particular issue.

That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?

(Of course, that doesn't cover *subscribers* so much as *participants*
-- and you don't really participate much if you're 6 months behind, do
you?)

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Julia Thompson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Jon wrote:
> 
> > Never give up!  Never surrender!
> >
> > (Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
> 
> Capt. Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"!
> 
> One of the best hard sci-fi movies IMHO.
> ;-p

Hey, it won the Hugo.  Don't knock it.

Julia

one of the people responsible for that
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RE: Robotic Singularity

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> This may tag me as some kind of Luddite, but I find
> it appalling that people can't wait to excise as
> much human contact from their lives as possible.  I
> know people that would rather eat nails than
> actually have to go to the bank for three whole
> minutes.  No one's time is really that important, is
> it?

Well, I still walk into the bank to make deposits and
whatnot (one branch is near home, another near the
stable, and with so many 'little' checks instead of
one monthly paycheck, I like to 'supervise' -- no
control issues here!  ;} ).

The Article's To Be Read, But I'm *'Way* Behind On
That File Maru

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Re: How we were hoodwinked

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Matt Grimaldi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Erik Reuter wrote:
> > Julia Thompson wrote:
> > > Erik Reuter wrote:
> > >
> > > > Since we are being snippy...
> > >
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > (All this snipping is reminding me of the story
> about the 3 mythical
> > women who cut the strings of people's lives when
> their time is up)
> > 
> 
> "The Loom of Thelassy"  (sp?)

I liked that short story.  I didn't like the original
Greek one -- was there perhaps a similar Nordic myth
also?...  -- at any rate, the notion of predestination
and one's fate being entirely in another's hands is
anathema to me.  But I guess that just means I'm
thoroughly indoctrinated with one of our 'Western'
memes...  :)

Karma Or Free Will Maru

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
 

> ...my thinking has gone off on a bit of a tangent:
> 
> In Texas, (and I have to assume that things are done
> in a similar fashion in
> the rest of the US) when there is a divorce, a
> "child of tender years" (age
> 9 and under in Texas) is automatically made the
> custody of the mother.
> The argument being that a young child needs a mother
> on a daily basis more than he/she needs a father.
> 
> This brings questions to mind immediately:
> 
> * If homosexual men are allowed to adopt children
> under 10 years of age,
> will this not constitute prejudice against divorced
> heterosexual men?

Huh, I'll bet a lawyer could argue that; I'd have to
say that if the mother is 'fit' and breastfeeding,
though, I'd give her custody (although joint custody
is preferable IMO unless one of the parents is clearly
unfit, or chooses to give up custody).
 
> * Will homosexual women be given preference to adopt
> children over homosexual men?

I'm guessing yes, at least right now.
 
> * Will divorce law have to be modified to eliminate
> these prejudices (if they indeed exist)?

I do think they exist, and if custody cannot be joint,
I'd want the most 'fit' parent to have it.  Of course,
then you have to define 'fit'... ['unfitness' I think
would be more clear, and easier to determine]
 
> * How would custody be arranged for divorcing
> homosexuals who have adopted
> children? (How would you determine who the custodial
> parent would be?)

I know a lesbian couple who had a child, with one
being the biological mother and the other being the
biological aunt (sperm donor was her brother) --
custody went to the 'aunt,' I think b/c the mother was
medically 'unfit.'  But I guess I'd have to use the
'fitness' criteria again for your case; all else being
equal, I'd consider things like family support systems
(joint custody still preferable from my POV).
 
> It seems to me that allowing homosexuals to adopt
> children will have
> consequences that extend beyond the original
> question of qualification, and
> would actually be a benefit to heterosexual men who
> desire custody of their children.

That seems quite possible.  I'll try to bounce this
off some lawyer friends.
 
> Can 'O Worms Maru
> rob

You Got That Straight! Maru  ;)
Debbi

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jan Coffey]

--- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jon Gabriel wrote:
> > 
> > >From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> > >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >It's not as bad as another list where I am 41359 behind...
> > 
> > Yeah, I gave up on one list when I hit 25K unread posts.
> 
> The only mail folder I have that's anywhere near approaching that sort
> of unread-ness has a number of different lists filtering into it, so I
> can console myself that I'm not *that* far behind on any individual
> list.  (Not sure just how bad it is, but I got through all the posts
> from 2002 in there sometime in April, and just haven't gotten to reading
> it much since then.)

I simply pick threads that I think, from the title, might be interesting.
However, A quick check of the threads that I have posted on will show that
nearly every one is killed when someone attacks me for misspelling.

How Unfortuanate, especialy for those who started the thread in hopes to have
a real discussion instead of a flame war centered around one listmemebers
-uniqe way of processing- (or even "disability" if you like). 

I am unsure how many people are actualy on this list, but given that %20 of
the population is like me, (perhaps not to my extream, but still), and even
though this list is centered around an author of fiction, an is infact and
-E-MAIL- list,  I should still not be the only one.

I know that dyslexics tend to shy away from e-mail lists, and you can imagine
why. If everytime they have anything to say on a list they are confronted
with attacks on their ability to spell, then they probably would prefer to
simply stop participating.

This is also very unfortunate. 

Well, sorry, I don't give up that easy. At the same time I can get a bit
testy. Can you blame me?

When I am attacked for spelling and not for content I get the impression, as
I am sure many do, that the attacker doesn't like what I have to say, but can
find no flaw, or angle for dispute. Or more likely they are unable to read
phoneticaly, and so never arive at content. Whatever the reason, it is
getting rather annoying, and I am starting to feel like an oppressed
minority, so STOP IT!

Now, would anyone like to actualy talk about the article for which this
thread is titled?

=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Jon Gabriel]

From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:08:50 -0500
Jon Gabriel wrote:
>
> >From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
> >
> >
> >It's not as bad as another list where I am 41359 behind...
>
> Yeah, I gave up on one list when I hit 25K unread posts.
The only mail folder I have that's anywhere near approaching that sort
of unread-ness has a number of different lists filtering into it, so I
can console myself that I'm not *that* far behind on any individual
list.
I read that as 'approaching that sort of unread mess'.  Freudian slip, I 
guess.

(Not sure just how bad it is, but I got through all the posts
from 2002 in there sometime in April, and just haven't gotten to reading
it much since then.)
I keep telling myself I'll get to them eventually but I probably won't.

not sure just what the 7 habits were, but it was time for a subject
change, and she was trying to be cute
It's a great subject header. :)

Jon

Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution

[Deborah Harrell]

--- "Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:
 
> You've taken the classic boob's line, "God created
> Adam and Eve, not
> Adam and Steve!" and slapped a new coat of pain on
> it, but it's still
> bereft of real substance, and just as ridiculous. 
> While a man and a
> woman are required for the initial act, it does not
> necessarily follow
> that both sexes are required for every step after
> that.

And nowadays only the 'products' of a man and a woman
are required to create a zygote, although a woman is
still needed to carry the pregnancy to term.  

>  I have yet to
> see compelling evidence that gay adoptive parents,
> screened to the
> same degree as a heterosexual couple, are less fit
> as parents.

Agreed, although if I were counseling such a couple
today I'd advise them to live in a supportive
community such as one of the big port cities (New
York, San Fran, New Orleans etc.) or other progressive
places like Austin, to cut down on the bullying such
children would be subjected to in, say, Pineville,
Louisiana.  Also, I think it is important to have role
models of the opposite gender available* for the
children (aunts, uncles, family friends etc.).
*By this I mean that the children get to interact with
them on at least a weekly basis.

"Cameron and Cameron's reanalysis of published data in
2002 indicates children being raised in a home
environment with at least one homosexual parent report
some negative consequences. However, a closer look at
the information presented suggests (especially in the
absence of control groups) that the negative
consequences documented do not constitute major
psychological trauma. Rather, they are more in the
nature of the teasing and bullying that plagues any
child who comes from a home that may be atypical in
any fashion."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12353800&dopt=Abstract

Note: you can access the abstract that reports
problems via the above link; I must point out that it
is a small study (N=57), and produced by the Family
Research Institute, Inc., Colorado Springs, CO -- a
_very_ conservative group with a definite agenda. 
[Colorado Springs is the home of 'Focus on the Family'
and other arch-conservative groups that IMO have a
1950's view of the world.]  If you enter "homosexual
parents" in the 'search' box, ~24 studies come up -
nearly all of the ones that show a negative effect on
the children are from this same group.  Note also that
adopted children do tend to have more psychological
problems at baseline, so a proper study control for
adopted children of gay parents would be adopted
children of heterosexual parents, not biological
children of straight parents.

> I think that if someone can demonstrate that they're
> able to care for
> a child emotionally, physically and financially,
> they should be allowed to adopt.  

Agreed.

> If two adults capable of giving informed consent
> want to make a commitment to care for each other
> over the long term,
> they should be allowed toA Marriage Amendment to
> the Constitution would, in the
> long run, be a bigger mistake than prohibition
> (although for different
> reasons, and with different results).  A Marriage
> Amendment acts to
> protect a few delicate sensibilities in the face of
> a change that is
> moving ever closer, and will be as effective in the
> long run as Jim Crow and "Separate but equal".

Similar arguments were made about interracial
marriages, IIRC, and while I think that 2 decades ago
it was difficult for biracial children WRT bullying
etc., young people like Tiger Woods show that loving
parents are more important an influence than a hostile
culture, and indeed they help transform that culture
to one that is more open and tolerant.

Debbi

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[William T Goodall]

On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 08:02  pm, Jon Gabriel wrote:

Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
Galaxy Quest?

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
Those who study history are doomed to repeat it.

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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is, however, important to know that %20 of the
> world population is far
> enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
> The inability to spell
> properly in an illogical system such as English
> should never be used for
> ridicule, especialy not to adress ones inteligence. 
>
>Jan William Coffey

This'll probably make Jan feel worse, but a
neurologist friend of mine says that I'm a textbook
case of someone who is mildly dyslexic - that's not a
formal diagnosis, but I guess a neurologist is
qualified to give an expert opinion.  So there's
probably more than one on the list.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jon Gabriel]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
Jon wrote:

> Never give up!  Never surrender!
>
> (Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
Capt. Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"!

One of the best hard sci-fi movies IMHO.
;-p
Give the man a cigar!  (And a beer or something for remembering Tim Allen's 
character's name).  :)

Agreed.  Excellent movie.

Jon
"It's a Rock Monster!  It doesn't HAVE motivation!"
Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jan Coffey]

--- Jon Gabriel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >From: Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 02:01:52 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >--- Ritu  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jan Coffey wrote:
> > >
> > > > And before anyone misunderstands me, -NO- I don't want the poor
> Indean
> > > > national to have to work 80 hours a week for 1/4 the pay
> > > > eaither. And -YES- I
> > > > would like him to be as gainfully employed as me.
> > >
> > > Indean?
> > >
> >
> >You know, Ritu, if you are trying to get under my skin, you are doing a 
> >damb
> >good job of it. Should we start discussing your own personal flaws?
> 
> Jan,
> 
> I know that you've been hashing this out with Erik (unpleasantly), but 
> please consider that it is perfectly possible that Ritu has not read that 
> thread and isn't aware that you're dyslexic.  Personally, I wouldn't assume
> 
> someone was unless they told me.
> 
> I regularly skip threads completely here I find it impossible to keep up. 
> (I'm now 591 posts behind.)  I'm sure that others do the same.  If it were 
> me, I'd give Ritu the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 

Indeed. I did possibly act in too hasty a manner.

It is, however, important to know that %20 of the world population is far
enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic. The inability to spell
properly in an illogical system such as English should never be used for
ridicule, especialy not to adress ones inteligence. 

In fact, since my kind is over-represented in the list of mental achievers,
the inability to spell English is more likely a sign of high, or at least
highly unique, intelagence than it is of low or cripled intelagence.

The very act of ridiculing, or even admiting to being able to recognize
misspellings suggests that the person is from the %80 of the population that
is more likely to be unremarkable.

So, Ritu, my sincerist appologies.


=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Bryon Daly]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jon wrote:
> Never give up!  Never surrender!
>
> (Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
Capt. Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"!
Doh!  You're right!  I was going to say Winston Churchill!  (I was thinking 
of his "We shall defend our island" speech).

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[patrick]

Jon wrote:

> Never give up!  Never surrender!
>
> (Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)

Capt. Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"!

One of the best hard sci-fi movies IMHO.
;-p

Patrick

Patrick Schlichtenmyer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
"Be silly. Be honest. Be kind."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

[Julia Thompson]

Jon Gabriel wrote:
> 
> >From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
> >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
> >
> >
> >It's not as bad as another list where I am 41359 behind...
> 
> Yeah, I gave up on one list when I hit 25K unread posts.

The only mail folder I have that's anywhere near approaching that sort
of unread-ness has a number of different lists filtering into it, so I
can console myself that I'm not *that* far behind on any individual
list.  (Not sure just how bad it is, but I got through all the posts
from 2002 in there sometime in April, and just haven't gotten to reading
it much since then.)

Julia

not sure just what the 7 habits were, but it was time for a subject
change, and she was trying to be cute
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Re: Lance!

[Julia Thompson]

Jon Gabriel wrote:
> 
> >From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Dan's mother wasn't interested in football when she married Dan's
> >father.
> 
> A Texas immigrant, huh?

Acutally, *she* is the Texas native, *he's* the immigrant.

Professional football wasn't a big deal when she was growing up.  I
don't know if she got to go to high school games when she was in high
school.  (She was out in the country, on a dairy farm, and they all got
up early every day.)  The only sporting events I've heard her talking
about attending when she was young were baseball games.

The Dallas Cowboys weren't even in existence until she was over 20.

Now, her sons were raised as good Texans.  ;)

Julia

Hook 'Em Horns!
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OT: On leaving the list as abruptly as I did.

[Michael Harney]

It's been a few days since I unsubscribed.  I've had a chance to regain some
perspective.

I have subscribed to the list again, but am filtering posts for now.  For
now, I will only recieve messages with OT: or Brin: in the subject

First of all, a few have asked if it was the actions of another list-member
that drove me to leave.  The answer to that is "No".  The reason was a
combination of things, including lack of interest in the discussions going
on at the time, inability to keep up with the list load, but most of all it
was a knee-jerk reaction I had to a very, very bad dream.  The dream I had
really did hurt me that much.  I didn't want to stay after that for fear of
more dreams like that.  I have been battling insomnia since then.
Fortunately, my dreams since then have not been unpleasant, and my sleep
schedule is flexible, so I can sleep to noon if I can't fall asleep until 4
am (one of the benefits of freelace work).  I'm dealing with the dream and
the issues it brought up.  Upon reflection, the list was only a part of what
brought on the dream.  The dream itself reflected on many facets of my life,
and I think I just have to get my life heading in the right direction again.
I'm contemplating my options right now.  I am considering the option of
going back to College to work towards a Master's in Computer Science.  If I
want to enroll in any classes for the fall, I will have to sign up soon
though.  I will just be taking undergraduate prerequisit courses, so
enrolling won't be difficult or require going through approval for a
Master's program, which I have no doubt that I already missed the deadline
for the fall semester anyway.  I will probably turn off the filters to the
list
when I have more time for it or after I read The Fellowship of the Ring
(which will probably be around mid September as I am only about one-
quarter through reading The Hobbit and have been a bit too busy to read
much recently), whichever comes first.

I apologize for the abruptness of my departure, and am sorry if it worried
anyone.

Michael Harney
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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on pryor nomination [L3]

[The Fool]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/B?r108:@FIELD(FLD003+s)[EMAIL PROTECTED](DDATE+2
0030730)

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Illinois. 

   Mr. DURBIN. Mr. President, to those of us who have been given this
great honor to serve in the Senate, there is a moment when we are asked
to take the oath of office. In taking that oath of office, we swear to
uphold one document. That document, of course, is the Constitution of the
United States of America. 

   We are not asked our religion, nor our beliefs in our religion. We are
only asked if we will take an oath to God that we will uphold this
Constitution. All of us take it very seriously and all of us take the
wording of this Constitution very seriously because within this small
document are words that have endured for more than two centuries. 

   There was wisdom in that Constitutional Convention which America has
relied on ever since. 

   Sometimes people say, times have changed. And we do amend the
Constitution from time to time. By and large the principles that guided
those men who wrote this Constitution have guided this Nation to
greatness. I am honored to be a small part of this Nation's history and
to serve in the Senate. 

   I looked to this Constitution for guidance for this debate tonight,
and I find that guidance in Article 6 of the Constitution. Let me read a
few words from that book. 


   . no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to
any Office or public Trust under the United States.


   Most of the men who wrote this Constitution were religious people.
They had seen the abuse of religion. They had seen leaders in other
countries using religion for political purposes and against other people.
They came to this land and said, it will be different in America. We are
going to protect your right to believe. We are not going to establish a
government church and we will say in our Constitution that no religious
test will ever be required of a person seeking a nomination for public
office in our land. 

   Those are very absolute and clear words. I am a Catholic, born and
raised. My mother and father were Catholics. My children have been raised
in the Catholic faith. In my lifetime, I have seen some amazing things
happen. In 1960, I was about 15 or 16 years old. There was a Presidential
race with a candidate by the name of John Fitzgerald Kennedy of
Massachusetts. That may be the first Presidential election I followed
closely. I remember watching the Los Angeles convention on my
black-and-white television at home in East St. Louis. I took a special
interest because I had a stake. The John Fitzgerald Kennedy candidacy was
the first opportunity since Alfred Smith for the election of a Catholic
to be President of the United States. We do not think twice about that
now, but in 1960 it was a big deal. And a big problem for John Kennedy.
So much so that he feared he might lose the election over that issue. 

   He did something that was historic and I guess unprecedented. He went
to Texas and addressed a Baptist convention to explain his view of the
relation of church and State because there were real concerns. Many
people felt that those who were believers of the Catholic church were so
connected and so committed to the teachings of the church and to the
leader of the church, the Pope in Rome, that they could not make
objective decisions on behalf of the United States; they would be clouded
in their judgment because of the demands of their faith. 

   John Kennedy, a Catholic, went to Texas to a Baptist convention to
tell those gathered that his first allegiance as President was to the
United States and not to any religion. He said: I believe in America
where the separation of church and State is absolute. 

   Many people think that statement and that visit turned the election
for John Kennedy, an election which he won by just a very small margin.
It dispelled the fears and concerns of many people across the country
that a Catholic would be first loyal to Rome and then loyal to the United
States. 

   It is an interesting thing to reflect on the view of Catholics in
public life in 1960 and the debate which is 

   taking place tonight. The issue has come full circle. Now there are
those who argue that because a nominee comes before the Senate and
professes to be a Catholic that we cannot ask that nominee questions
about his political beliefs. There are many religious beliefs that are
also political beliefs. There are some religious beliefs that are not.
You can be an adherent to the Jewish religion, keep kosher, and I cannot
imagine how that becomes a political issue. What is the purpose of asking
a question about that? But whether you are Jewish, Catholic, Protestant,
or Muslim, it is appropriate to ask any nominee for a judicial position,
Where do you stand on the death penalty? That is a political issue. It is
a social issue. And yes, it is also a religious issue. 

   Some have argued tonight if a person comes before

Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[Jon Gabriel]

From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:31:30 +0100
On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 06:03  pm, Jon Gabriel wrote:
I regularly skip threads completely here I find it impossible to keep up. 
(I'm now 591 posts behind.)  I'm sure that others do the same.
I'm 1115 behind  :)  I don't know whether to admit defeat or not...
Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)

It's not as bad as another list where I am 41359 behind...
Yeah, I gave up on one list when I hit 25K unread posts.

Jon

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arch criminal poindexter to resign in 'terror market' fallout

[The Fool]

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3198102

Poindexter to Quit Pentagon Post Amid Controversy 

Thu July 31, 2003 01:59 PM ET 
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - John Poindexter, the retired Navy admiral who
spearheaded two sharply criticized Pentagon projects, intends to resign
from his Defense Department post within weeks, a senior U.S. defense
official said on Thursday.
"It's my understanding that he ... expects to, within a few weeks, offer
his resignation," the official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told
reporters.

Poindexter was involved with the Defense Advanced Research Projects
Agency's abandoned futures-trading market for predicting assassinations,
terrorism and other events in the Middle East, and earlier with the
so-called Total Information Awareness program that drew fire from civil
rights groups.

--

Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now
doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same
thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the
liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the
Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry
directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything
suffered by any minority in history.
-- Pat Robertson
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

[William T Goodall]

On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 06:03  pm, Jon Gabriel wrote:
I regularly skip threads completely here I find it impossible to keep 
up. (I'm now 591 posts behind.)  I'm sure that others do the same.
I'm 1115 behind  :)  I don't know whether to admit defeat or not...

It's not as bad as another list where I am 41359 behind...

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me 
-- you can't get fooled again."
 -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 
17, 2002

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Re: Lance!

[Bryon Daly]

From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Bryon Daly wrote:
>
> I didn't get to watch any if it, live or otherwise, so I had to content
> myself with following via web coverage, because my wife's tolerance for
> sports on TV is measured in nanoseconds.  :-)
Hm.  Anything you can do about that?  (Or do you want to, even?)
Maybe I could foster some sports interest in her, if I worked on it like Dan 
and his father did.  The problem is most TV time we get these days is spent 
watching "Bob the Builder" and "Bear in the Big Blue House", so adult 
tv-time is rather a precious commodity, and it's tough to ask her to use 
that time to watch stuff she's not interested in.

I didn't really watch the Tour de France much until this year, but I'm
supposed to be somewhat horizontal a number of hours each day, and I
could time it so that I got a 2-hour block of coverage on OLN at the
same time I was lying down.  I really enjoyed that.  I got a lot more
into it than I'll probably be able to for the next few years.  There
The first time I really got into it was when LA was still a rising star, but 
hadn't had much success with the TdF yet.  In a terrible accident on one 
stage, one of his (Motorola?) teammates (Fabio Castarelli) got killed in  a 
crash on a high speed turn.   The next day's stage, no one raced: they all 
rode together, and donated all the stage prize money to Castarelli's family. 
 The next day, Lance was unstoppable and dedicated the stage win (only his 
career second stage win) to his fallen teammate.  Very riveting, but 
fortunately, that kind of drama doesn't happen too often.

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RE: When does it end? (RE: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words)

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

John D Giorgis wrote:
I disagree with this.   Suicide bombings, hijackings, Oklahoma City-style
bombings, etc. all strike me as fairly modern inventions.
At 14:08 2003-07-31 -0400, you wrote:
No, hijackings and truck bombings are modern inventions technologically 
but the targeting of civilian populations to incite terror can be traced 
back 2500 years to the writings of Xenophon, the Greek historian. He lived 
around 4 or 500 BC, I think.

Just off the top of my head, some other examples of terrorism throughout 
history:
The Crusades
The Spanish Inquisition
Robespierre's Reign of Terror (late 1700's)
Klu Klux Klan (late 1800's)
The Argentine 'Vanished'
The PLO (post WWII)
The Irish Republican Army
And the Basque ETA was started in the 1960's, I believe.

Jon
Don't forget the corsair pirates: state sponsored terrorism.

If exploding trucks are a modern invention, it is only because
trucks didn't exist before.  There is an equivalent in what is
called in French a "brulôt".  It's a burning ship or raft
which may or may not be filled with gun powder, aimed
at another ship or at a city's port.
Jean-Louis 

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fight hte evil of price discrimination

[The Fool]

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jul2003/tc20030731_6139_tc0
73.htm

PRIVACY MATTERS 
By Jane Black 

Sharper Tools for Discriminatory Pricing
Expert Andrew Odlyzko explains how tech advances are making it much
easier to charge one price for you and another for your neighbor 


Why do corporations want your personal data? The simple answer, according
to Andrew Odlyzko, the director of the University of Minnesota's Digital
Technology Center, is that such information is the key to a holy grail of
capitalism: discriminatory pricing. 

Economic theory posits that price discrimination -- where companies
charge individuals based on their ability to pay and their value as a
customer -- is desirable since it makes trade more efficient. Yet it
rankles consumers, who perceive differential pricing as unfair. The fact
that business travelers, whose corporations can arguably afford it, pay
more for airline seats than a vacationer has made air travel more popular
and routine. At the same time, the price discrimination that charges two
people different prices for the same class of service infuriates those
who pay more.

In a paper to be presented at the Fifth Annual Conference on E-Commerce
this fall, Odlyzko, a Bell Labs researcher for 26 years, doesn't argue
for or against discriminatory pricing. He focuses on how technology can
bring it to new levels of sophistication and prevalence.

In 2000, Coca-Cola (COK ) tested a vending machine that would raise
prices on a hot, humid day and lower them when temperatures fell. Today,
Amazon.com (AMZ ) knows what, when, and how often customers buy and is
experimenting with offering personalized bundles -- buy two books and get
a discount, for example -- to induce people to buy more. Twenty years
ago, neither experiment would have been possible.

Managers who invest in privacy-eroding data-collection technology aren't
always conscious that they're moving toward a world of widespread
discriminatory pricing, Odlyzko says. Rather, they're trying out ways to
use information to increase profits. But as corporations become more
sophisticated in collecting and parsing consumers' personal information,
success will lead them to more pervasive price discrimination. On July
28, I talked to Odlyzko about how data is being used to usher in a more
efficient -- and privacy-invasive -- economy. Edited excerpts follow:

Q: Your paper posits that private companies now have both greater
incentive and ability to discriminate on pricing by collecting and
analyzing customer data. How so?
A: The greater incentive comes from the fact that in an information
economy, an increasing fraction of the costs is fixed. It costs a large
amount to create and market a movie, but very little to distribute it to
a theater and on-demand to a customer at home. But different customers
are willing to pay different amounts for the privilege of seeing a movie.

In the last issue of BusinessWeek, there was a letter from a reader who
advocated that Hollywood should start by charging $30 to see a new
release at home, then reduce the price to $5 over time. He said he would
happily pay $30 to see a new movie at home because it costs him $75 to
see a movie in the cinema -- after he pays for the babysitter and popcorn
and tickets.

So here's one guy who says he's willing to pay $30 because that's much
less than what he's currently paying to see a new release. On the other
hand, you've got teenagers and adults who like the social atmosphere of a
movie theater, the wide screen, etc. For them, you have to induce them to
stay in and watch the movie, rather than going out, by offering them very
low prices, maybe $3. If you can do both without getting them upset, then
society wins.

Q: So why does differential pricing upset customers?
A: There's this central issue of fairness that comes up. People are very
concerned that they'll pay more than someone else and be played for a
fool.

That's what we dislike about having to deal with the salesman in the
car-buying process. That's why people got angry enough to file lawsuits
when they observed that catalog companies had been offering different
prices to different individuals. [The customers lost.] That's why people
are sensitive to airline pricing -- and why they're concerned that it's
spreading to other travel areas, such as hotels and rental cars.

Q: Is there a correlation between more powerful technology and consumer
backlash?
A: Fear of discriminatory pricing isn't new: It was also a very big
factor in the railroads at the end of the 19th century. Then, you had a
huge industry -- even bigger than the information-technology industry
today -- which was practicing price discrimination on a really gross
scale. As with the Internet, railroads required huge investments up
front, but the marginal costs were comparatively small. 

Nineteenth-century railroads didn't have the information technologies to
allow for "frequent-ride" programs. Nor did they have the "positive
passenger i

Re: Lance!

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "Adam C. Lipscomb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lance!
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:47:58 -0500
Jon wrote:
> It's the food, the water and the air.  They work on the body
synergistically
> to form little football-enabler cells that make up the heart of
every Texan.
>   (Don't mind me... I'm working on very little sleep.)
Thank all the Dark Gods I'm immune, then.  Hate football, hate
watching it.  I'd rather get a boil lanced than watch football.  My
wife and kids are the same, and I'll do my best to keep them pure,
thankyouverymuch.
Don't hold back!  Tell us how you really feel!  :)

I really have no problem with it until funds that should be directed towards 
education in the school systems wind up funding high school teams.  It's the 
"Billy the Halfback can't add, but who cares?" mentality that upsets me.

Adam C. Lipscomb
10 years in Texas, no football-oriented desires at all.
Yeah, Texas immigrants don't always contract the disease. :)

Jon
It's Not An Obsession But A Way Of Life Maru
Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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