Religion kills
The hadj is another abominable superstition that kills people. During the 2006 Hajj 362 pilgrims died. If it weren't for superstitious religious nonsense they wouldn't have been there in the first place. And fatal stampedes happen several times every year at religious events so ignorance isn't an excuse. William T Goodall i don't dispute any of that william. my point was that plane crashes, ships at sea,and rock concerts, etc. also cause panic and death. much of it IS due to ignorance, and the kind of miserable conditions that cause people to place their faith in redemption or some other nonsense that gives them hope. you can't blame everything in the world on religious fanaticism. religion feeds off people's hatred and fear of the other. another reason why these beliefs are so wide spread is greed. that is what you should be ranting about. i hate religion as much as you, if not more, but you need to stop blaming the victims and find other, more effective ways to criticize the institution. you need to be pragmatic, nt dogmatic; otherwise you are the same as those you attack. i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 11:02 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane hypocrite. Even if -- no, especially if -- you consider religion to be weakness, surely you can find some empathy for people who have been killed and injured, had to bury their family members, no matter what the cause? I wrote my first response to you while sitting with my wife in an emergency room, where we were worried that she's got something wrong with her heart. We had been up most of the night and I'd heard the story out of India on the radio while driving back to the hospital after catching a couple of hours sleep. And as I heard the story, I thought of you immediately, William, and wondered if you would be able to respond first to the grief and tragedy before making your usual response. And I thought, no matter why those people where there, it is clear that what panicked them was fear of a landslide or avalanche. To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. Where is your compassion? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion kills
To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!??? Curtis Blatant Troll Maru :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:02 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane hypocrite. Just jumping in to point out that personal attacks are generally not considered a good thing here, and to remind everyone to attack the topic, not the person who posted on the topic. And that certainly goes both ways. Attacking Nick's religious beliefs is one thing, but attacking Nick himself is not generally considered acceptable on this list, just as calling William's post indecent is probably ok, but calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. Cooler Heads Maru -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. indecent of you *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying you are an indecent person). I try to always stay conscious of the distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Curtis Burisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!??? Only if you include the phrase Great Satan in there somewhere. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. indecent of you *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying you are an indecent person). I try to always stay conscious of the distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and counter-examples for each of you. I apologize for any lack of clarity on my part. -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. Best Defence Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 17:35, Nick Arnett wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. indecent of you *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying you are an indecent person). I try to always stay conscious of the distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unminced words Maru The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? jon Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. Best Defence Maru William T Goodall then why are you so angry? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. indecent of you *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying you are an indecent person). I try to always stay conscious of the distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and counter-examples for each of you. I apologize for any lack of clarity on my part. Mauro Diotallevi i thought the definintion of indecent was, if it's in deep enough, it's in decent!~) jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? jon Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. Best Defence Maru William T Goodall then why are you so angry? jon I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unminced words Maru William T Goodall lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow brinlisters as supporters of baby-killing religion, just because they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru William T Goodall your manner of personal attacks. i don't know anything about you so i have to base my impression of you on what you say online... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:09, Jon Louis Mann wrote: is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? It doesn't matter what they try - religion is intrinsically evil because it promotes lies and superstitious bullshit. The fact that some people are nicey-nicey and sugar-candy about it doesn't make a whit of difference to that. It may be worse than the transparently wicked forms of religion because they deceive more people that way. Gilded turd Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:11, Jon Louis Mann wrote: I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru William T Goodall your manner of personal attacks. i don't know anything about you so i have to base my impression of you on what you say online... jon I haven't attacked anyone. No smoking crater Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
Jon Louis Mann wrote: That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unminced words Maru William T Goodall lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow brinlisters as supporters of baby-killing religion, just because they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon William has a point here. There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject of euthanasia. There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses or to abandon baby girls. AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second type of religion. Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would be more human than most atheistic morality systems. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked religion, it was the lack of compassion I saw in them. Seriously, William, what about compassion? Do you have or wish to have any compassion for the victims of this event? What do you think of compassion in general, outside of the context of religion? I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your business and you are welcome to them. I am curious what you think about compassion, however. Does it not apply in this situation? Ever? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
then why are you so angry? jon I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and tried of hearing atheistic used as a synonym for evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers when surveys consistently show that the second largest religious affiliation in the United States (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions combined -- but when was the last time you saw a representative of atheists or agnostics included in some politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any candidate for national office in the US saying openly that they don't believe in god? And yet, Chri stian groups constantly present themselves as an oppressed minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of people telling me that evolution is an open question or that there is no real evidence to support it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at least one -- Democrats do n't have much more courage here) where every single candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity either, but step off a ten story building and see how much good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it is their culture and their religion? It could just as easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian country and th at the Founding Fathers were Christian heroes when I know that most of them couldn't get elected today to save their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or the supernatural while living in the White House. And the founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of the constitution because they intended to set up a secular government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all try not to, I can understand how someone can become so disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the same brush. From: William T Goodallmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Religion kills On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? jon Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. Best Defence Maru William T Goodall then why are you so angry? jon I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.ukhttp://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Jon Louis Mann wrote: That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unminced words Maru William T Goodall lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow brinlisters as supporters of baby-killing religion, just because they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon William has a point here. There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject of euthanasia. There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses or to abandon baby girls. AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second type of religion. Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would be more human than most atheistic morality systems. A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a morality system by which to judge the others. Relativism Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a morality system by which to judge the others. Relativism Maru William T Goodall what is your morality system, william? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Nick Arnett wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked religion, it was the lack of compassion I saw in them. Seriously, William, what about compassion? Do you have or wish to have any compassion for the victims of this event? What do you think of compassion in general, outside of the context of religion? I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your business and you are welcome to them. I am curious what you think about compassion, however. Does it not apply in this situation? Ever? I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my compassion. And neither should you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The First Event
I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that created everything. Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing, God appearing from nowhere,. branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang, or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into existance for no reason. Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. Regards, Wayne ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Jon Louis Mann wrote: A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a morality system by which to judge the others. Relativism Maru William T Goodall what is your morality system, william? Me. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. Logic Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
What's wrong with saying I don't know and continuing to explore. Olin - Original Message - From: Wayne Eddymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: The First Event I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that created everything. Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing, God appearing from nowhere,. branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang, or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into existance for no reason. Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. Regards, Wayne ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:55, Olin Elliott wrote: [snip] Amen Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Compassion
I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my compassion. And neither should you Maru William T Goodall i suspect you are compassionate, in your own way, and you are also righteous and sanctimonious... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:23, Jon Louis Mann wrote: what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? No, because I actually exist :-) Important distinction Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:53 PM Subject: Religion kills what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? jon A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
your manner of personal attacks. i don't know anything about you so i base my impression of you on what you say on-line... Jon I haven't attacked anyone. William T Goodall what do you call: That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unmixed words Mari William T Goodall it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and superstition, but some good is also done in the name of religion. more so in Judaism, and less so in Islam and Christianity. some of the eastern religions are more mystical than supernatural. as for morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some horrible deeds have been committed by atheists. Tibet is being forcibly modernized and brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being slaughtered in the myanmar, etc. i don't know which is the greatest evil, but i agree with nick that there is room for compassion. i myself am guilty of baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions. i have mixed feelings about that... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:31, Jon Louis Mann wrote: what do you call: That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unmixed words Mari William T Goodall A diagnosis? Helpful Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? jon A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? Nick you're right, nick. i was bein ironic, but probably came off as being more sardonic. i have to be careful not to be drawn into the fray, or even agitating it to some extent. i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be less intolerant and antagonistic. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The First Event On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. Logic Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentially you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? No, because I actually exist :-) Important distinction Maru William T Goodall good answer!~) what did descartes say when asked if he believed in the existence of god? answer: i think not... and then... he disappeared... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, William T Goodall wrote: I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my compassion. Aand -- the first thing I think of when I read that is Matthew 6:1-18 or so ::headdesk:: Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
Wayne Eddy wrote: I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that created everything. Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing, God appearing from nowhere,. branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang, or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into existance for no reason. Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. Wayne-- Hi. My guess is that we're looking at it wrong, and that the right explanation is expressed in a totally different way. To start, suppose we postulate that there are different levels of realness, and that only relative measures can be made? For example, I could argue that I'm more real than my dreams. (Or not, but that's another thread...) Then the universe has always been at its current level of reality. : ) ---David Conservation of probability, Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be less intolerant and antagonistic. And where does that get you? Appeasement Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:43, Wayne Eddy wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. That hasn't happened. Difference Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
Acutally, quantum mechanics suggests that it is totally possible that a purple ball could pop into existence in your kitchen at any moment. It is, however, highly, highly improbable -- so improbable that it is almost totally unlikely to occur in the life span of the universe. I'm not sure where the logical fallacy against something being created from nothing comes from -- physics allows for particles to be created essentially out of nothing in a number of circumstances, as long as certain balances, like the net charge and so on are preserved. And is that really any more difficult to swallow than an omnipotent, all powerful being who has existed for all time (where did he -- she, it, etc. -- come from?). I don't know that you, Wayne, are aguing for a religious position, or just looking at the question from all angles, but it seems odd to me when anyone with religious beliefs about creation, etc. starts dealing in logic. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -- J.B.S. Haldane - Original Message - From: Wayne Eddymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: The First Event - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.commailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The First Event On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. Logic Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Wayne Eddy wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The First Event On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. See, now, if that happened to *me*, I'd be blaming my youngest, and wondering if it had anything to do with the box of aluminum foil he put in the microwave one morning last month. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and tried of hearing atheistic used as a synonym for evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers when surveys consistently show that the second largest religious affiliation in the United States (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions combined -- but when was the last time you saw a representative of atheists or agnostics included in some politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any candidate for national office in the US saying openly that they don't believe in god? And yet, Christian groups constantly present themselves as an oppressed minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of people telling me that evolution is an open question or that there is no real evidence to support it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at least one -- Democrats don't have much more courage here) where every single candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity either, but step off a ten story building and see how much good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it is their culture and their religion? It could just as easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian country and that the Founding Fathers were Christian heroes when I know that most of them couldn't get elected today to save their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or the supernatural while living in the White House. The founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of the constitution because they intended to set up a secular government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all try not to, I can understand how someone can become so disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the same brush. brilliant olin. i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love with a christian girl who exemplified the better side of her faith. i still harbor a lot of hatred toward the moral majority, but i don't let them affect how i run for office. i have lost eight elections, but i will NEVER pander to religion. i have even made speeches denouncing corruption in church and state, and identified myself as a neo-marxist revisionist. i am in seattle right now visiting a friend who is waiting for a liver transplant. on wednesday, august 6th, i leave for world con. i would love to continue this discussion at denvention! jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
I wish I was going to World Con, but I'm not. (I have some political issues with Denver, but that's another story and not the reason I'm not going -- I just can't get away at the right time). Too bad you're leaving tomorrow though. Have fun at the convention, though. - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:13 PM Subject: Religion kills I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and tried of hearing atheistic used as a synonym for evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers when surveys consistently show that the second largest religious affiliation in the United States (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions combined -- but when was the last time you saw a representative of atheists or agnostics included in some politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any candidate for national office in the US saying openly that they don't believe in god? And yet, Christian groups constantly present themselves as an oppressed minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of people telling me that evolution is an open question or that there is no real evidence to support it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at least one -- Democrats don't have much more courage here) where every single candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity either, but step off a ten story building and see how much good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it is their culture and their religion? It could just as easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian country and that the Founding Fathers were Christian heroes when I know that most of them couldn't get elected today to save their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or the supernatural while living in the White House. The founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of the constitution because they intended to set up a secular government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all try not to, I can understand how someone can become so disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the same brush. brilliant olin. i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love with a christian girl who exemplified the better side of her faith. i still harbor a lot of hatred toward the moral majority, but i don't let them affect how i run for office. i have lost eight elections, but i will NEVER pander to religion. i have even made speeches denouncing corruption in church and state, and identified myself as a neo-marxist revisionist. i am in seattle right now visiting a friend who is waiting for
Re: The First Event
On 05/08/2008, at 6:59 AM, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one sample, we have only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes for both the formation of the universe and abiogenesis). What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day and age, to give up looking for answers, which is what much (not all) religion is trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much of the world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In fact, the gaps are being kept open on purpose by many, including those nasty little faith schools that teach creationism. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 7:29 AM, Nick Lidster wrote: what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? jon A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? Probably, but it was pretty funny. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be less intolerant and antagonistic. jon And where does that get you? Appeasement Maru William T Goodall sometimes i am able to engage in a civilized debate, not only on religion and politics, but almost any topic that is controversial. i try not to get emotional so the fanatics i am arguing with don't have a reason to hit me. usually they either give up and walk away when they realize they can't engage, or tell me they will pray for my eternal soul.~) some people are so dogmatic and irrational that they lose their temper anyway and i might just push their buttons out of sheer malicious mischief. if they are so determined to force their beliefs on me then i feel justified in baiting them a bit and forcing my non-belief on them.-} ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 7:31 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and superstition, but some good is also done in the name of religion. more so in Judaism, and less so in Islam and Christianity. some of the eastern religions are more mystical than supernatural. as for morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some horrible deeds have been committed by atheists. Tibet is being forcibly modernized and brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being slaughtered in the myanmar, etc. i don't know which is the greatest evil, but i agree with nick that there is room for compassion. i myself am guilty of baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions. i have mixed feelings about that... By atheists and in the name of atheism aren't the same thing. It's about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Spain under the Inquistion, Maoist China, and the Balkan conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. Atheism is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God, there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in China. As you were. I'm about to hop on my bike and ride to work. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The First Event
Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. Wayne-- Hi. My guess is that we're looking at it wrong, and that the right explanation is expressed in a totally different way. To start, suppose we postulate that there are different levels of realness, and that only relative measures can be made? For example, I could argue that I'm more real than my dreams. (Or not, but that's another thread...) Then the universe has always been at its current level of reality. : ) ---David Conservation of probability, Maru who was it that postulated that reality is an illusion? someone else suggested that we all exist in cyberspace? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
There's a good chance we're living inside a black hole that was originally in another universe before whatever it was exploded and dropped out of spacetime. Which makes it sort of a chicken/egg problem, but at least it makes a case for de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe .. :) On Aug 4, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote: I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that created everything. Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing, God appearing from nowhere,. branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang, or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into existance for no reason. Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. Regards, Wayne What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, if I hadn't told you you were going to break it, would you still have broken it? -the Oracle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
Mass-energy equivalence, conservation of matter (or, relativistically speaking, mass-energy)? On Aug 4, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Olin Elliott wrote: Acutally, quantum mechanics suggests that it is totally possible that a purple ball could pop into existence in your kitchen at any moment. It is, however, highly, highly improbable -- so improbable that it is almost totally unlikely to occur in the life span of the universe. I'm not sure where the logical fallacy against something being created from nothing comes from -- physics allows for particles to be created essentially out of nothing in a number of circumstances, as long as certain balances, like the net charge and so on are preserved. And is that really any more difficult to swallow than an omnipotent, all powerful being who has existed for all time (where did he -- she, it, etc. -- come from?). I don't know that you, Wayne, are aguing for a religious position, or just looking at the question from all angles, but it seems odd to me when anyone with religious beliefs about creation, etc. starts dealing in logic. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -- J.B.S. Haldane - Original Message - From: Wayne Eddymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: The First Event - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.commailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The First Event On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. Logic Maru Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot killed it ... Yes, I've read a poem. Try not to faint. -- Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
Only if the magnetron in the oven imploded and fell out of spacetime leaving a quantum black hole. But the small hole in the counter, the cabinet, and the slab would be a dead giveaway if that happened. There's also the small matter of the earth collapsing into it completely after a few weeks of exponential growth. Probably would notice that. (But it might end up as a Schwarzschild black hole, rather than a Reissner-Nordström black hole .. in which case it might create a new universe. *That* background anisotropy would be rather interesting to explain..) On Aug 4, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Wayne Eddy wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The First Event On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote: Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history of everything. If it happened it wasn't impossible. But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow. See, now, if that happened to *me*, I'd be blaming my youngest, and wondering if it had anything to do with the box of aluminum foil he put in the microwave one morning last month. Julia People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. -- River Tam, Serenity ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Top-posting...
I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text. It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order in which we normally read in English. Thanks! Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Top-posting...
I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text. It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order in which we normally read in English. Thanks! Charlie. thank you charlie, i remember someone sent me a link to a faq about how to post, not make personal attacks, etc.; does anyone still have that? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Top-posting...
On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:01, Charlie Bell wrote: I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text. It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order in which we normally read in English. Thanks! It's not actually stated in here http://www.mccmedia.com/brin-l/etiquette.htm although it should be. Petition Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Top-posting...
At 06:01 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Charlie Bell wrote: I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text. It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order in which we normally read in English. Thanks! Charlie. See Below Maru . . . ronn! ;) A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The First Event
Bruce Bostwick wrote: There's a good chance we're living inside a black hole that was originally in another universe before whatever it was exploded and dropped out of spacetime. Which makes it sort of a chicken/egg problem, but at least it makes a case for de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe .. :) sounds like peter hamilton's new trilogy http://www.peterfhamilton.co.uk/index.php?page=Void_Trilogy what is de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Alastair Reynolds
Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Ark. I've been reading his books for the past few months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started. I'm also reading A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. Just thought I'd bring up some books, since that is sort of what drew me here in the first place. Olin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
By atheists and in the name of atheism aren't the same thing. It's about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the Balkan conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. Atheism is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God, there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in China. Charlie. i sit corrected, in the name of atheism. as a devout atheist i believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of the universe starts all over, again. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
Betrand Russell (I'm fairly sure it was him) used to call himself A Teacup Athiest. He said he couldn't prove, beyond any doubt, that there wasn't a pink teacup orbiting the sun, but he didn't think that meant that the likelihood of it existing was on equal footing with its not existing. I sometimes tell people I'm a tooth fairy agnostic (a phrase I stole, from Richard Dawkins I think). Basically, I can't prove to someone who really believes that the tooth fairy definitely doesn't exist. But it just doesn't seem very likely, does it? - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:50 PM Subject: Religion kills By atheists and in the name of atheism aren't the same thing. It's about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the Balkan conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. Atheism is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God, there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in China. Charlie. i sit corrected, in the name of atheism. as a devout atheist i believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of the universe starts all over, again. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Alastair Reynolds
On 4 Aug 2008 at 16:45, Olin Elliott wrote: Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Ark. I've been reading his books for the past few months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started. I'm also reading A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. Just thought I'd bring up some books, since that is sort of what drew me here in the first place. I picked them up cheap recently second hand. Um While I think it started well, the series... descends, I guess, in my estimation. By the time you get to Aura, I'm wincing (Redeption Ark...well...frankly you could see a lot of it coming). I really like the short story Diamond Dogs and some of the Galactic North collection more than the longer books in the universe - this is something which is consistant with me, though, I like the short _A Second Chance at Eden_ more than the _Nights Dawn_ trilogy, for example. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The First Event
It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one sample, we have only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes for both the formation of the universe and abiogenesis). What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day and age, to give up looking for answers, which is what much (not all) religion is trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much of the world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In fact, the gaps are being kept open on purpose by many, including those nasty little faith schools that teach creationism. Charlie it would seem that extraterrestrial life could exist, according to the drake equations, but highly unlikely. at least in an infinite universe... that would explain the fermi paradox because life is so rare that by the time their signature reached us we would have missed the window, perhaps because we hadn't evolved yet out on this faraway arm of the milky way and they have entered the singularity, or... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Alastair Reynolds
On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:45, Olin Elliott wrote: Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Ark. I've been reading his books for the past few months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started. I've read and enjoyed the three you mention. I got bogged down in _Absolution Gap_ and haven't finished it yet. Maybe next year :-) I'm also reading A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. That's very good. I recently read _Rainbow's End_ which I didn't think was as good. I'm currently reading Michael Flynn's _In The Country of the Blind_ which I bought in 1990 or so. I had read bits of it in Analog previously. I just ordered Dozois' _The Year's Best Science Fiction 25_ from Amazon.com [1] and hope to finish reading #20 this year so I'll only be five years behind on that (21, 22, 23 and 24 are on the shelf). [1] It cost £13.23 inc delivery from the USA to the UK and it costs £22.50 with free delivery from Amazon.co.uk. It takes a couple of weeks longer from the USA, but I'm not in a hurry :-) Not enough hours Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I guess I would describe Serenity as a sci-fi action drama about the price of freedom. Or, Citizen Kane with spaceships. I could go either way. - Joss Whedon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Alastair Reynolds
At 06:45 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Olin Elliott wrote: Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Ark. I've been reading his books for the past few months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started. I'm also reading A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. Yep, all of the above, and others beside by both of 'em . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The First Event
At 07:05 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one sample, we have only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes for both the formation of the universe and abiogenesis). What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day and age, to give up looking for answers, which is what much (not all) religion is trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much of the world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In fact, the gaps are being kept open on purpose by many, including those nasty little faith schools that teach creationism. Charlie it would seem that extraterrestrial life could exist, according to the drake equations, but highly unlikely. at least in an infinite universe... that would explain the fermi paradox because life is so rare that by the time their signature reached us we would have missed the window, perhaps because we hadn't evolved yet out on this faraway arm of the milky way and they have entered the singularity, or... . . . they have received and decoded our television shows . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
At 06:50 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: By atheists and in the name of atheism aren't the same thing. It's about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the Balkan conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. Atheism is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God, there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in China. Charlie. i sit corrected, in the name of atheism. as a devout atheist i believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. And that is pretty much what many Christians and others believe: that there is a God, even though they cannot prove it rigorously to the satisfaction of everybody, so they take it on faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of the universe starts all over, again. jon Of course you may know that a cyclical universe seems to be out of favor with cosmologists now because the latest evidence points to the density of stuff in the universe (matter + energy + dark matter + dark energy) being less than the critical density necessary to halt the expansion, much less make everything fall back into a big crunch. And while some Biblical literalists and others may claim otherwise, there are many scientists who do not believe that there is necessarily an essential conflict between the findings of science and belief in God in general or Christian belief in particular. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: what is your morality system, william? Me. William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? Silly question. Everybody does THAT! It's often how I start my day. Nick The first thing to know about God is that you aren't it Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm not sanctimonious like some people And just how does that manage also to leave able to freely, so freely and urgently, share your views on religion. Sanctimonious: Making a show of being morally better than others. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
