Re: Religion kills

[Dave Land]

On Aug 4, 2008, at 2:55 PM, William T Goodall wrote:

> On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>> i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be
>> less intolerant and antagonistic.
>
> And where does that get you?

Well, for one thing, many people on this list find Jon's posts pleasant
and courteous, even when they are challenging. Jon, like many others
here, consider IAAMOAC when they post. It's why personal attacks are to
be avoided: they divide the community, rather than build it.

Abrasive and monomaniacal posts are not pleasant and courteous, whether
they come from someone defending or attacking religion.

Dave

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Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
>
> I'm not sanctimonious like some people


And just how does that manage also to leave able to freely, so freely and
urgently, share your views on religion.

Sanctimonious: "Making a show of being morally better than others."

Nick
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Re: Religion kills

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Jon Louis Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> > > what is your morality system, william?
>
> > Me.
> > William T Goodall
>
> so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent,
> benevolent, compassionate deity?


Silly question.  Everybody does THAT!  It's often how I start my day.

Nick
"The first thing to know about God is that you aren't it" Maru
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Re: Religion kills

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 06:50 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > "By atheists" and "in the name of
> > atheism" aren't the same thing. It's
> > about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When
> > beliefs get
> > in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia,
> > Nazi
> > Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the
> > Balkan
> > conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology.
> > "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a
> > position of non-belief in
> > gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of
> > humanity seem to
> > be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't
> > believe in God,
> > there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill
> > the gap. In
> > Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very
> > similar in China.
> > Charlie.
>
>i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism".  as a devout atheist i 
>believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith.


And that is pretty much what many Christians and others 
believe:  that there is a God, even though they cannot prove it 
rigorously to the satisfaction of everybody, so they take it on faith.


>   i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when 
> all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes 
> which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center 
> of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so 
> that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of 
> the universe starts all over, again.
>jon



Of course you may know that a cyclical universe seems to be out of 
favor with cosmologists now because the latest evidence points to the 
density of "stuff" in the universe (matter + energy + "dark matter" + 
"dark energy") being less than the critical density necessary to halt 
the expansion, much less make everything fall back into a "big 
crunch."  And while some Biblical literalists and others may claim 
otherwise, there are many scientists who do not believe that there is 
necessarily an essential conflict between the findings of science and 
belief in God in general or Christian belief in particular.


. . . ronn!  :)



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Re: The First Event

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 07:05 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one
> > sample, we have
> > only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes
> > for both
> > the formation of the universe and abiogenesis).
> > What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day
> > and age, to give
> > up looking for answers, which is what much (not all)
> > religion is
> > trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much
> > of the
> > world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In
> > fact, the gaps
> > are being kept open on purpose by many, including those
> > nasty little
> > "faith schools" that teach creationism.
> > Charlie
>
>it would seem that extraterrestrial life could exist, according to 
>the drake equations, but highly unlikely. at least in an infinite 
>universe...  that would explain the fermi paradox because life is so 
>rare that by the time their signature reached us we would have 
>missed the window, perhaps because we hadn't evolved yet out on this 
>faraway arm of the milky way and they have entered the singularity, or...


. . . they have received and decoded our television shows .


. . . ronn!  :)



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Re: Alastair Reynolds

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 06:45 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Olin Elliott wrote:
>Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm 
>City, Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past few 
>months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well 
>known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I 
>started.  I'm also reading "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge.


Yep, all of the above, and others beside by both of 'em . . .


. . . ronn!  :)



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Re: Alastair Reynolds

[William T Goodall]

On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:45, Olin Elliott wrote:

> Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm  
> City, Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past few  
> months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well  
> known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started.


I've read and enjoyed the three you mention. I got bogged down in  
_Absolution Gap_  and haven't finished it yet. Maybe next year :-)

> I'm also reading "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge.

That's very good. I recently read _Rainbow's End_ which I didn't think  
was as good. I'm currently reading Michael Flynn's _In The Country of  
the Blind_ which I bought in 1990 or so. I had read bits of it in  
Analog previously. I just ordered Dozois' _The Year's Best Science  
Fiction 25_ from Amazon.com [1] and hope to finish reading #20 this  
year so I'll only be five years behind on that (21, 22, 23 and 24 are  
on the shelf).

[1] It cost £13.23 inc delivery from the USA to the UK and it costs  
£22.50 with free delivery from Amazon.co.uk. It takes a couple of  
weeks longer from the USA, but I'm not in a hurry :-)

Not enough hours Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"I guess I would describe Serenity as a sci-fi action drama about the  
price of freedom. Or, Citizen Kane with spaceships. I could go either  
way." - Joss Whedon


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The First Event

[Jon Louis Mann]

> It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one
> sample, we have  
> only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes
> for both  
> the formation of the universe and abiogenesis).
> What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day
> and age, to give  
> up looking for answers, which is what much (not all)
> religion is  
> trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much
> of the  
> world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In
> fact, the gaps  
> are being kept open on purpose by many, including those
> nasty little  
> "faith schools" that teach creationism.
> Charlie

it would seem that extraterrestrial life could exist, according to the drake 
equations, but highly unlikely. at least in an infinite universe...  that would 
explain the fermi paradox because life is so rare that by the time their 
signature reached us we would have missed the window, perhaps because we hadn't 
evolved yet out on this faraway arm of the milky way and they have entered the 
singularity, or...


  
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Re: Alastair Reynolds

[Andrew Crystall]

On 4 Aug 2008 at 16:45, Olin Elliott wrote:

> Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, 
> Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past few months and 
> really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science 
> fiction readers I've chatted with since I started.  I'm also reading "A Fire 
> Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge.
> 
> Just thought I'd bring up some books, since that is sort of what drew me here 
> in the first place.

I picked them up cheap recently second hand.

"Um"

While I think it started well, the series... descends, I guess, in my 
estimation. By the time you get to Aura, I'm wincing (Redeption 
Ark...well...frankly you could see a lot of it coming).

I really like the short story Diamond Dogs and some of the Galactic 
North collection more than the longer books in the universe - this is 
something which is consistant with me, though, I like the short _A 
Second Chance at Eden_ more than the _Nights Dawn_ trilogy, for 
example.
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Re: Religion kills

[Olin Elliott]

Betrand Russell (I'm fairly sure it was him) used to call himself "A Teacup 
Athiest".  He said he couldn't prove, beyond any doubt, that there wasn't a 
pink teacup orbiting the sun, but he didn't think that meant that the 
likelihood of it existing was on equal footing with its not existing.  I 
sometimes tell people I'm a tooth fairy agnostic (a phrase I stole, from 
Richard Dawkins I think).  Basically, I can't prove to someone who really 
believes that the tooth fairy definitely doesn't exist.  But it just doesn't 
seem very likely, does it?
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jon Louis Mann 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:50 PM
  Subject: Religion kills


  > "By atheists" and "in the name of
  > atheism" aren't the same thing. It's  
  > about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When
  > beliefs get  
  > in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia,
  > Nazi  
  > Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the
  > Balkan  
  > conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology.
  > "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a
  > position of non-belief in  
  > gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of
  > humanity seem to  
  > be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't
  > believe in God,  
  > there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill
  > the gap. In  
  > Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very
  > similar in China.
  > Charlie.

  i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism".  as a devout atheist i believe 
there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith.  i believe 
the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the 
universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super 
duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches 
critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death 
of the universe starts all over, again.
  jon



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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> "By atheists" and "in the name of
> atheism" aren't the same thing. It's  
> about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When
> beliefs get  
> in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia,
> Nazi  
> Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the
> Balkan  
> conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology.
> "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a
> position of non-belief in  
> gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of
> humanity seem to  
> be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't
> believe in God,  
> there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill
> the gap. In  
> Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very
> similar in China.
> Charlie.

i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism".  as a devout atheist i believe there 
ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith.  i believe the 
universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the 
universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super 
duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches 
critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death 
of the universe starts all over, again.
jon


  
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Alastair Reynolds

[Olin Elliott]

Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm City, 
Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past few months and really 
loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well known among science fiction 
readers I've chatted with since I started.  I'm also reading "A Fire Upon the 
Deep" by Vernor Vinge.

Just thought I'd bring up some books, since that is sort of what drew me here 
in the first place.

Olin
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The First Event

[Jon Louis Mann]

Bruce Bostwick wrote:
> There's a good chance we're living inside a black
> hole that was  
> originally in another universe before whatever it was
> exploded and  
> dropped out of spacetime.
> Which makes it sort of a chicken/egg problem, but at least
> it makes a  
> case for de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe .. :)

sounds like peter hamilton's new trilogy
http://www.peterfhamilton.co.uk/index.php?page=Void_Trilogy
what is de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe?
jon


  
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Re: Top-posting...

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 06:01 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Charlie Bell wrote:
>I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're
>responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this
>list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text.
>It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order
>in which we normally read in English.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Charlie.


See Below Maru


. . . ronn!  ;)


A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?





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Re: Top-posting...

[William T Goodall]

On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:01, Charlie Bell wrote:

> I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're
> responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this
> list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text.
> It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order
> in which we normally read in English.
>
> Thanks!
>

It's not actually stated in here

http://www.mccmedia.com/brin-l/etiquette.htm

although it should be.

Petition Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer


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Top-posting...

[Jon Louis Mann]

> I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the
> email they're  
> responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's
> convention on this  
> list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote
> relevant text.  
> It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows
> the order  
> in which we normally read in English.
> Thanks!
> Charlie.

thank you charlie, i remember someone sent me a link to a faq about how to 
post, not make personal attacks, etc.; does anyone still have that?
jon


  
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Top-posting...

[Charlie Bell]

I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're  
responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this  
list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text.  
It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order  
in which we normally read in English.

Thanks!

Charlie.
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Re: The First Event

[Bruce Bostwick]

Only if the magnetron in the oven imploded and fell out of spacetime  
leaving a quantum black hole.  But the small hole in the counter, the  
cabinet, and the slab would be a dead giveaway if that happened.

There's also the small matter of the earth collapsing into it  
completely after a few weeks of exponential growth.  Probably would  
notice that.

(But it might end up as a Schwarzschild black hole, rather than a  
Reissner-Nordström black hole .. in which case it might create a new  
universe.  *That* background anisotropy would be rather interesting to  
explain..)

On Aug 4, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Julia Thompson wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: The First Event
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
 Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
 history
 of everything.
>>>
>>>
>>> If it happened it wasn't impossible.
>>>
>>
>> But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a  
>> purple ball)
>> could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.
>
> See, now, if that happened to *me*, I'd be blaming my youngest, and
> wondering if it had anything to do with the box of aluminum foil he  
> put in
> the microwave one morning last month.
>
>   Julia

"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what  
to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their  
heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome." -- River Tam,  
"Serenity"


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Re: The First Event

[Bruce Bostwick]

Mass-energy equivalence, conservation of matter (or, relativistically  
speaking, mass-energy)?

On Aug 4, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Olin Elliott wrote:

> Acutally, quantum mechanics suggests that it is totally possible  
> that a purple ball could pop into existence in your kitchen at any  
> moment.  It is, however, highly, highly improbable -- so improbable  
> that it is almost totally unlikely to occur in the life span of the  
> universe.  I'm not sure where the "logical" fallacy against  
> something being created from nothing comes from -- physics allows  
> for particles to be created essentially out of nothing in a number  
> of circumstances, as long as certain balances, like the net charge  
> and so on are preserved.  And is that really any more difficult to  
> swallow than an omnipotent, all powerful being who has existed for  
> all time (where did he -- she, it, etc. -- come from?).  I don't  
> know that you, Wayne, are aguing for a religious position, or just  
> looking at the question from all angles, but it seems odd to me when  
> anyone with religious beliefs about creation, etc.  starts dealing  
> in logic.
>
> Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than  
> we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -- J.B.S. Haldane
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Wayne Eddy
>  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion >
>  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:43 PM
>  Subject: Re: The First Event
>
>
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>
>  To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
> mailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com 
> >>
>  Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM
>  Subject: Re: The First Event
>
>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>>> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
>>> history
>>> of everything.
>>
>>
>> If it happened it wasn't impossible.
>>
>
>  But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a  
> purple ball)
>  could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.
>
>
>
>> Logic Maru
>

"Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot  
killed it ... Yes, I've read a poem. Try not to faint." -- Capt. Mal  
Reynolds, "Serenity"


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Re: The First Event

[Bruce Bostwick]

There's a good chance we're living inside a black hole that was  
originally in another universe before whatever it was exploded and  
dropped out of spacetime.

Which makes it sort of a chicken/egg problem, but at least it makes a  
case for de Sitter vs. anti-de Sitter universe .. :)

On Aug 4, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote:

> I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event  
> that
> created everything.
> Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing,
> God appearing from nowhere,.
> branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big  
> bang,
> or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into
> existance for no reason.
>
> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the  
> history
> of everything.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne

"What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, if I hadn't told  
you you were going to break it, would you still have broken it?"  -the  
Oracle


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The First Event

[Jon Louis Mann]

> > Seems to me that something impossible 
> happened at least once in the history 
> > of everything.
> Wayne--

> Hi.  My guess is that we're looking at it wrong,
> and that the right explanation is expressed in
> a totally different way.
> To start, suppose we postulate that there are
> different levels of "realness", and that only
> relative measures can be made?  For example,
> I could argue that I'm "more real" than my
> dreams.  (Or not, but that's another thread...)
> Then the universe has always been at its current
> level of reality.  : )
>   ---David
> Conservation of probability,  Maru

who was it that postulated that reality is an illusion?  someone else suggested 
that we all exist in cyberspace?
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[Charlie Bell]

On 05/08/2008, at 7:31 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and  
> superstition, but some good is also done in the name of religion.  
> more so in Judaism, and less so in Islam and Christianity.  some of  
> the eastern religions are more mystical than supernatural.  as for  
> morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some horrible deeds have  
> been committed by atheists.  Tibet is being forcibly modernized and  
> brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being slaughtered  
> in the myanmar, etc.  i don't know which is the greatest evil, but i  
> agree with nick that there is room for compassion.  i myself am  
> guilty of baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions.  i  
> have mixed feelings about that...

"By atheists" and "in the name of atheism" aren't the same thing. It's  
about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get  
in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi  
Germany, Spain under the Inquistion, Maoist China, and the Balkan  
conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology.

"Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in  
gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to  
be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God,  
there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In  
Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in  
China.

As you were. I'm about to hop on my bike and ride to work.

Charlie.
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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> > i actually agree with william about religion, except i
> try to be less intolerant and antagonistic.
> > jon

> And where does that get you?
> Appeasement Maru
> William T Goodall

sometimes i am able to engage in a civilized debate, not only on religion and 
politics, but almost any topic that is controversial.  i try not to get 
emotional so the fanatics i am arguing with don't have a reason to hit me.  
usually they either give up and walk away when they realize they can't engage, 
or tell me they will pray for my eternal soul.~)  some people are so dogmatic 
and irrational that they lose their temper anyway and i might just push their 
buttons out of sheer malicious mischief. if they are so determined to force 
their beliefs on me then i feel justified in baiting them a bit and forcing my 
non-belief on them.-}


  
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Re: Religion kills

[Charlie Bell]

On 05/08/2008, at 7:29 AM, Nick Lidster wrote:
 what is your morality system, william?
>>
>>> Me.
>>> William T Goodall
>>
>> so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an  
>> omnipotent,
>> benevolent, compassionate deity?
>> jon
>>
>
> A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon?

Probably, but it was pretty funny.

Charlie.
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Re: The First Event

[Charlie Bell]

On 05/08/2008, at 6:59 AM, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>
> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the  
> history
> of everything.

It happened, so it's possible. As we only have one sample, we have  
only speculation as to how improbable it was (and that goes for both  
the formation of the universe and abiogenesis).

What we don't have is any reason at all, in this day and age, to give  
up looking for answers, which is what much (not all) religion is  
trying to do. The God of the Gaps is alive and well in much of the  
world's people, even though the gaps are shrinking. In fact, the gaps  
are being kept open on purpose by many, including those nasty little  
"faith schools" that teach creationism.

Charlie.
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Re: Religion kills

[Olin Elliott]

I wish I was going to World Con, but I'm not.  (I have some political issues 
with Denver, but that's another story and not the reason I'm not going -- I 
just can't get away at the right time). Too bad you're leaving tomorrow though. 
 Have fun at the convention, though.  


  - Original Message - 
  From: Jon Louis Mann 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:13 PM
  Subject: Religion kills


  > I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer
  > myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship
  > between society and religion.  Personally, I am sick and
  > tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for
  > evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both
  > sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers
  > when surveys consistently show that the second largest
  > "religious affiliation" in the United States
  > (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who
  > consider themselves non-religious or secular.  Where are our
  > candidates?  Where are the politicians that speak for us? 
  > Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than
  > Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions
  > combined -- but when was the last time you saw a
  > representative of atheists or agnostics included in some
  > politicians ecumenical service?  And can you imagine any
  > candidate for national office in the US saying openly that
  > they don't believe in god?  And yet, Christian groups 
  > constantly present themselves as an oppressed
  > minority battling against the evils of secularism.  I'm
  > very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their
  > faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything
  > was something to be proud of.  The greatest sins in history
  > -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush
  > administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and
  > the deliberate suppression of global warming information --
  > are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain
  > point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only
  > irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed.  Anything
  > that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some
  > of these -- is a liability, not a virtue.  I'm tired of
  > people telling me that evolution is an "open
  > question" or that there is no real evidence to support
  > it.  I'm tired of living in a country where, in the
  > first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at
  > least one -- Democrats don't have much
  > more courage here) where every single
  > candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in
  > evolution.  Who cares?  You might not believe in gravity
  > either, but step off a ten story building and see how much
  > good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that
  > I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context,
  > we would label delusional and maybe outright insane.  (Last
  > year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle
  > died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it
  > to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was
  > the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all
  > the scientists attempts.  We have to respect that because it
  > is their culture and their religion?  It could just as
  > easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that
  > the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed
  > Jonah, or whatever.  Its still insane thinking.)  Finally,
  > I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian
  > country and that the Founding Fathers
  > were Christian heroes when I know
  > that most of them couldn't get elected today to save
  > their lives.  They'd be further out on the fringe than
  > Dennis Kucinich.  Thomas Jefferson was working on a version
  > of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or
  > the supernatural while living in the White House.  The
  > founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of
  > the constitution because they intended to set up a secular
  > government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality.
  > Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can
  > understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot
  > of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all
  > try not to, I can understand how someone can become so
  > disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the
  > same brush.

  brilliant olin.  i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love 
with a christian girl who exemplified the better side of her faith.  i still 
harbor a lot of hatred toward the "moral majority", but i don't let them affect 
how i run for office.  i have lost eight elections, but i will NEVER pander to 
religion.  i have even made speeches denouncing corruption in church and state, 
and identified myself as a neo-marxist r

Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer
> myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship
> between society and religion.  Personally, I am sick and
> tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for
> evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both
> sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers
> when surveys consistently show that the second largest
> "religious affiliation" in the United States
> (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who
> consider themselves non-religious or secular.  Where are our
> candidates?  Where are the politicians that speak for us? 
> Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than
> Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions
> combined -- but when was the last time you saw a
> representative of atheists or agnostics included in some
> politicians ecumenical service?  And can you imagine any
> candidate for national office in the US saying openly that
> they don't believe in god?  And yet, Christian groups 
> constantly present themselves as an oppressed
> minority battling against the evils of secularism.  I'm
> very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their
> faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything
> was something to be proud of.  The greatest sins in history
> -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush
> administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and
> the deliberate suppression of global warming information --
> are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain
> point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only
> irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed.  Anything
> that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some
> of these -- is a liability, not a virtue.  I'm tired of
> people telling me that evolution is an "open
> question" or that there is no real evidence to support
> it.  I'm tired of living in a country where, in the
> first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at
> least one -- Democrats don't have much
> more courage here) where every single
> candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in
> evolution.  Who cares?  You might not believe in gravity
> either, but step off a ten story building and see how much
> good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that
> I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context,
> we would label delusional and maybe outright insane.  (Last
> year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle
> died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it
> to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was
> the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all
> the scientists attempts.  We have to respect that because it
> is their culture and their religion?  It could just as
> easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that
> the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed
> Jonah, or whatever.  Its still insane thinking.)  Finally,
> I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian
> country and that the Founding Fathers
> were Christian heroes when I know
> that most of them couldn't get elected today to save
> their lives.  They'd be further out on the fringe than
> Dennis Kucinich.  Thomas Jefferson was working on a version
> of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or
> the supernatural while living in the White House.  The
> founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of
> the constitution because they intended to set up a secular
> government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality.
> Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can
> understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot
> of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all
> try not to, I can understand how someone can become so
> disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the
> same brush.

brilliant olin.  i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love with 
a christian girl who exemplified the better side of her faith.  i still harbor 
a lot of hatred toward the "moral majority", but i don't let them affect how i 
run for office.  i have lost eight elections, but i will NEVER pander to 
religion.  i have even made speeches denouncing corruption in church and state, 
and identified myself as a neo-marxist revisionist.  

i am in seattle right now visiting a friend who is waiting for a liver 
transplant.  on wednesday, august 6th, i leave for world con. i would love to 
continue this discussion at denvention!
jon




  
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Re: The First Event

[Julia Thompson]

On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: The First Event
>
>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>>> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
>>> history
>>> of everything.
>>
>>
>> If it happened it wasn't impossible.
>>
>
> But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball)
> could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.

See, now, if that happened to *me*, I'd be blaming my youngest, and 
wondering if it had anything to do with the box of aluminum foil he put in 
the microwave one morning last month.

Julia

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Re: The First Event

[Olin Elliott]

Acutally, quantum mechanics suggests that it is totally possible that a purple 
ball could pop into existence in your kitchen at any moment.  It is, however, 
highly, highly improbable -- so improbable that it is almost totally unlikely 
to occur in the life span of the universe.  I'm not sure where the "logical" 
fallacy against something being created from nothing comes from -- physics 
allows for particles to be created essentially out of nothing in a number of 
circumstances, as long as certain balances, like the net charge and so on are 
preserved.  And is that really any more difficult to swallow than an 
omnipotent, all powerful being who has existed for all time (where did he -- 
she, it, etc. -- come from?).  I don't know that you, Wayne, are aguing for a 
religious position, or just looking at the question from all angles, but it 
seems odd to me when anyone with religious beliefs about creation, etc.  starts 
dealing in logic.

Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, 
but queerer than we can suppose. -- J.B.S. Haldane
  - Original Message - 
  From: Wayne Eddy 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:43 PM
  Subject: Re: The First Event



  - Original Message - 
  From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
mailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com>>
  Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM
  Subject: Re: The First Event


  >
  > On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
  >> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
  >> history
  >> of everything.
  >
  >
  > If it happened it wasn't impossible.
  >

  But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) 
  could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.



  > Logic Maru

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Re: The First Event

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:43, Wayne Eddy wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>>> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
>>> history
>>> of everything.
>>
>>
>> If it happened it wasn't impossible.
>>
>
> But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a  
> purple ball)
> could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.

That hasn't happened.

Difference Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be  
> less intolerant and antagonistic.

And where does that get you?

Appeasement Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Re: The First Event

[David Hobby]

Wayne Eddy wrote:
> I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that 
> created everything.
> Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing,
> God appearing from nowhere,.
> branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang,
> or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into 
> existance for no reason.
> 
> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history 
> of everything.

Wayne--

Hi.  My guess is that we're looking at it wrong,
and that the right explanation is expressed in
a totally different way.

To start, suppose we postulate that there are
different levels of "realness", and that only
relative measures can be made?  For example,
I could argue that I'm "more real" than my
dreams.  (Or not, but that's another thread...)

Then the universe has always been at its current
level of reality.  : )

---David

Conservation of probability,  Maru
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Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)

[Julia Thompson]

On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, William T Goodall wrote:

> I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my 
> compassion.

Aand -- the first thing I think of when I read that is Matthew 6:1-18 
or so

::headdesk::

Julia

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> >>> what is your morality system, william?

> >> Me.
> >> William T Goodall

> > so essentially you are putting yourself on the same
> level as an  
> > omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity?

> No, because I actually exist :-)
> Important distinction Maru 
> William T Goodall

good answer!~)

what did descartes say when asked if he believed in the existence of god?
answer:
i think not...
and then...
he disappeared...
jon


  
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Re: The First Event

[Wayne Eddy]

- Original Message - 
From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: The First Event


>
> On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
>> history
>> of everything.
>
>
> If it happened it wasn't impossible.
>

But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a purple ball) 
could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.



> Logic Maru

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> >> > what is your morality system, william?

> >> Me.
> >> William T Goodall

> > so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same
> level as an omnipotent, 
> > benevolent, compassionate deity?
> > jon

> A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon?
> Nick 

you're right, nick.  i was bein ironic, but probably came off as being more 
sardonic.  i have to be careful not to be drawn into the fray, or even 
agitating it to some extent.  i actually agree with william about religion, 
except i try to be less intolerant and antagonistic.
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:31, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> what do you call:
>> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
>> expect from a
>> supporter of baby-killing religion.
>> Unmixed words Mari
>> William T Goodall

A diagnosis?

Helpful Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> > your manner of personal attacks.  i don't know
> anything about you so  
> > i base my impression of you on what you say
> on-line...
> > Jon

> I haven't attacked anyone.
> William T Goodall

what do you call:
> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
> expect from a  
> supporter of baby-killing religion.
> Unmixed words Mari
> William T Goodall

it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and superstition, but 
some good is also done in the name of religion. more so in Judaism, and less so 
in Islam and Christianity.  some of the eastern religions are more mystical 
than supernatural.  as for morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some 
horrible deeds have been committed by atheists.  Tibet is being forcibly 
modernized and brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being 
slaughtered in the myanmar, etc.  i don't know which is the greatest evil, but 
i agree with nick that there is room for compassion.  i myself am guilty of 
baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions.  i have mixed feelings 
about that...
jon





  
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Re: Religion kills

[Nick Lidster]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: Religion kills


>> > what is your morality system, william?
>
>> Me.
>> William T Goodall
>
> so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, 
> benevolent, compassionate deity?
> jon
>

A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon?

Nick 


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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:23, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

>>> what is your morality system, william?
>
>> Me.
>> William T Goodall
>
> so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an  
> omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity?

No, because I actually exist :-)

Important distinction Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Compassion

[Jon Louis Mann]

> I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not
> going to discuss my  
> compassion.
> And neither should you Maru
> William T Goodall

i suspect you are compassionate, in your own way, and you are also righteous 
and sanctimonious...
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:55, Olin Elliott wrote:

[snip]

Amen Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> > what is your morality system, william?

> Me.
> William T Goodall

so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, 
benevolent, compassionate deity?
jon


  
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Re: The First Event

[Olin Elliott]

What's wrong with saying "I don't know" and continuing to explore.

Olin
  - Original Message - 
  From: Wayne Eddy 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:59 PM
  Subject: The First Event


  I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that 
  created everything.
  Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing,
  God appearing from nowhere,.
  branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang,
  or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into 
  existance for no reason.

  Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history 
  of everything.

  Regards,

  Wayne 

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Re: The First Event

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
> Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the  
> history
> of everything.


If it happened it wasn't impossible.

Logic Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

>
>
>> A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first
>> pick a
>> morality system by which to judge the others.
>> Relativism Maru
>> William T Goodall
>
> what is your morality system, william?

Me.

--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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The First Event

[Wayne Eddy]

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the original impossible event that 
created everything.
Whether it be; mass being created in the Big Bang from nothing,
God appearing from nowhere,.
branes forming out over nowhere and later colliding to cause the big bang,
or the original multiverse 100 universes removed from ours coming into 
existance for no reason.

Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the history 
of everything.

Regards,

Wayne 

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Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Nick Arnett wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >wrote:
>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?
>>
>> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.
>
>
> I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked  
> religion,
> it was the lack of compassion I saw in them.
>
> Seriously, William, what about compassion?  Do you have or wish to  
> have any
> compassion for the victims of this event?  What do you think of  
> compassion
> in general, outside of the context of religion?
>
> I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your  
> business and
> you are welcome to them.  I am curious what you think about  
> compassion,
> however.  Does it not apply in this situation?  Ever?

I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my  
compassion.

And neither should you Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first
> pick a  
> morality system by which to judge the others.
> Relativism Maru
> William T Goodall

what is your morality system, william?
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

>
> Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>>
>>> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
>>> expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion.
>>> Unminced words Maru
>>> William T Goodall
>>
>> lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending
>> what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow
>> brinlisters as "supporters of baby-killing religion", just because
>> they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of
>> those people who consider all jews to be baby killers?  is it
>> possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to
>> practice peace, love and brotherhood?  jon
>>
> William has a point here.
>
> There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that
> babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject
> of euthanasia.
>
> There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by
> devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses
> or to abandon baby girls.
>
> AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second
> type of religion.
>
> Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see
> which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less
> protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would
> be more human than most atheistic morality systems.



A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a  
morality system by which to judge the others.

Relativism Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills

[Olin Elliott]

  
> then why are you so angry?

> jon



>I'm not angry. What makes you think that?



>Mildly irritated Maru



I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer myself, I find a lot to be 
angry about in the relationship between society and religion.  Personally, I am 
sick and tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for evil, I'm sick of 
hearing political candidates of both sides pander to a small minority of 
fundamentalist believers when surveys consistently show that the second largest 
"religious affiliation" in the United States (after the combined Christian 
denominations) are those who consider themselves non-religious or secular.  
Where are our candidates?  Where are the politicians that speak for us?  
Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than Jewish voters, or any 
of the other non-Christian religions combined -- but when was the last time you 
saw a representative of atheists or agnostics included in some politicians 
ecumenical service?  And can you imagine any candidate for national office in 
the US saying openly that they don't believe in god?  And yet, Chri
 stian groups constantly present themselves as an oppressed minority battling 
against the evils of secularism.  I'm very very tired of hearing politicians 
talk about their faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything 
was something to be proud of.  The greatest sins in history -- and certainly 
almost all the crimes of the Bush administration, from Guantanamo to the war on 
science and the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- are the 
crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain point of view that facts are 
not only unnecessary, not only irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. 
 Anything that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some of these 
-- is a liability, not a virtue.  I'm tired of people telling me that evolution 
is an "open question" or that there is no real evidence to support it.  I'm 
tired of living in a country where, in the first decade of the 21st century we 
have a major party (at least one -- Democrats do
 n't have much more courage here) where every single candidate will openly avow 
that he doesn't believe in evolution.  Who cares?  You might not believe in 
gravity either, but step off a ten story building and see how much good your 
belief does you. I'm tired of being told that I have to be tolerant of beliefs 
that, in any other context, we would label delusional and maybe outright 
insane.  (Last year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle died 
because scientists couldn't get close enough to it to rescue it, because local 
Indians were convinced it was the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and 
blocked all the scientists attempts.  We have to respect that because it is 
their culture and their religion?  It could just as easily have been 
fundamentalist Christians convinced that the whale was an instrument of Satan, 
or that it once housed Jonah, or whatever.  Its still insane thinking.)  
Finally, I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian country and th
 at the Founding Fathers were Christian heroes when I know that most of them 
couldn't get elected today to save their lives.  They'd be further out on the 
fringe than Dennis Kucinich.  Thomas Jefferson was working on a version of the 
Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or the supernatural while 
living in the White House.  And the founding fathers deliberately left all 
mention of god out of the constitution because they intended to set up a 
secular government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality.



Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can understand how a non-believer 
can be very angry about a lot of things going on in the world, and though I 
hope we all try not to, I can understand how someone can become so 
disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the same brush.


From: William T Goodall 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:07 PM
  Subject: Re: Religion kills



  On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

  >>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did
  >> religion do to you?
  >> jon
  >
  >> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.
  >> Best Defence Maru
  >> William T Goodall
  >
  > then why are you so angry?
  > jon

  I'm not angry. What makes you think that?

  Mildly irritated Maru

  --  
  William T Goodall
  Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
  Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

  "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
  atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
> On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> >  i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?
>
> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.


I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked religion,
it was the lack of compassion I saw in them.

Seriously, William, what about compassion?  Do you have or wish to have any
compassion for the victims of this event?  What do you think of compassion
in general, outside of the context of religion?

I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your business and
you are welcome to them.  I am curious what you think about compassion,
however.  Does it not apply in this situation?  Ever?

Nick
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Re: Religion kills

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>
>> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
>> expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion.
>> Unminced words Maru
>> William T Goodall
> 
> lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending 
> what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow 
> brinlisters as "supporters of baby-killing religion", just because 
> they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of 
> those people who consider all jews to be baby killers?  is it 
> possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to 
> practice peace, love and brotherhood?  jon
> 
William has a point here.

There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that
babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject
of euthanasia.

There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by
devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses
or to abandon baby girls.

AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second
type of religion.

Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see
which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less
protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would
be more human than most atheistic morality systems.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:11, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

>> I'm not angry. What makes you think that?
>> Mildly irritated Maru
>> William T Goodall
>
> your manner of personal attacks.  i don't know anything about you so  
> i have to base my impression of you on what you say online...
> jon

I haven't attacked anyone.

No smoking crater Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:09, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>   is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually  
> try to practice peace, love and brotherhood?

It doesn't matter what they try - religion is intrinsically evil  
because it promotes lies and superstitious bullshit. The fact that  
some people are nicey-nicey and sugar-candy about it doesn't make a  
whit of difference to that. It may be worse than the transparently  
wicked forms of religion because  they deceive more people that way.

Gilded turd Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> I'm not angry. What makes you think that?
> Mildly irritated Maru 
> William T Goodall

your manner of personal attacks.  i don't know anything about you so i have to 
base my impression of you on what you say online...
jon


  
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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
> expect from a  
> supporter of baby-killing religion.
> Unminced words Maru
> William T Goodall

lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending what 
happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow brinlisters as 
"supporters of baby-killing religion", just because they are deluded enough to 
believe in god. i hope you are not one of those people who consider all jews to 
be baby killers?  is it possible that there some of the religious faithful 
actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood?  
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

>>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did
>> religion do to you?
>> jon
>
>> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.
>> Best Defence Maru
>> William T Goodall
>
> then why are you so angry?
> jon

I'm not angry. What makes you think that?

Mildly irritated Maru

--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> >>  calling William himself indecent has generally
> not
> >> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in
> the past.

> > "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the
> action, not the person (v. saying
> > "you are an indecent person").  I try to
> always stay conscious of the
> > distinction...  it is a compassionate one, I believe.
> I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and
> counter-examples for each of you.  I apologize for any lack
> of clarity
> on my part.
> Mauro Diotallevi

i thought the definintion of indecent was, "if it's in deep enough, it's in 
decent"!~)
jon


  
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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> >  i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did
> religion do to you?
> jon

> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.
> Best Defence Maru
> William T Goodall

then why are you so angry?
jon


  
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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 17:35, Nick Arnett wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>>
>> calling William himself indecent has generally not
>> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past.
>>
>
> "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v.  
> saying
> "you are an indecent person").  I try to always stay conscious of the
> distinction...  it is a compassionate one, I believe.
>

That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a  
supporter of baby-killing religion.

Unminced words Maru


  "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product  
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still  
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." - Albert  
Einstein

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/



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Re: Religion kills

[William T Goodall]

On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>  i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?

Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.

Best Defence Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities." ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills

[Mauro Diotallevi]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>>
>>  calling William himself indecent has generally not
>> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past.
>>
>
> "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying
> "you are an indecent person").  I try to always stay conscious of the
> distinction...  it is a compassionate one, I believe.

I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and
counter-examples for each of you.  I apologize for any lack of clarity
on my part.

-- 
Mauro Diotallevi
Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
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Re: Religion kills

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Curtis Burisch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the
> >WTC died from greed, since they were there to work.
>
> Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!???


Only if you include the phrase "Great Satan" in there somewhere.

Nick

>
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Re: Religion kills

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>  calling William himself indecent has generally not
> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past.
>

"indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying
"you are an indecent person").  I try to always stay conscious of the
distinction...  it is a compassionate one, I believe.

Nick
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Re: Religion kills

[Mauro Diotallevi]

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:02 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane
> hypocrite.
>

Just jumping in to point out that personal attacks are generally not
considered a good thing here, and to remind everyone to attack the
topic, not the person who posted on the topic.

And that certainly goes both ways.  Attacking Nick's religious beliefs
is one thing, but attacking Nick himself is not generally considered
acceptable on this list, just as calling William's post indecent is
probably ok, but calling William himself indecent has generally not
been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past.

Cooler Heads Maru

-- 
Mauro Diotallevi
Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
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RE: Religion kills

[Curtis Burisch]

>To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the 
>WTC died from greed, since they were there to work.

Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!???

Curtis

Blatant Troll Maru :)

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Re: Religion kills

[Nick Arnett]

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 11:02 AM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
>
> I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane
> hypocrite.


Even if -- no, especially if -- you consider religion to be weakness, surely
you can find some empathy for people who have been killed and injured, had
to bury their family members, no matter what the cause?

I wrote my first response to you while sitting with my wife in an emergency
room, where we were worried that she's got something wrong with her heart.
 We had been up most of the night and I'd heard the story out of India on
the radio while driving back to the hospital after catching a couple of
hours sleep.  And as I heard the story, I thought of you immediately,
William, and wondered if you would be able to respond first to the grief and
tragedy before making your usual response.  And I thought, no matter why
those people where there, it is clear that what panicked them was fear of a
landslide or avalanche.

To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the
WTC died from greed, since they were there to work.

Where is your compassion?

Nick
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Religion kills

[Jon Louis Mann]

> The hadj is another abominable superstition that kills
> people. During the 2006 Hajj 362 pilgrims died.
> If it weren't for superstitious religious nonsense they
> wouldn't have  
> been there in the first place. And  fatal stampedes  happen
> several  
> times every year at religious events so ignorance isn't
> an excuse.
> William T Goodall

i don't dispute any of that william. my point was that plane crashes, ships at 
sea,and rock concerts, etc. also cause panic and death. much of it IS due to 
ignorance, and the kind of miserable conditions that cause people to place 
their faith in redemption or some other nonsense that gives them hope.  

you can't blame everything in the world on religious fanaticism.  religion 
feeds off people's hatred and fear of the other.  another reason why these 
beliefs are so wide spread is greed. that is what you should be ranting about.  

i hate religion as much as you, if not more, but you need to stop blaming the 
victims and find other, more effective ways to criticize the institution.  you 
need to be pragmatic, nt dogmatic; otherwise you are the same as those you 
attack.  i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?
jon


  
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