[cctalk] TinyTapeOut and the Z80
https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/tiny-tapeout-7-readies-open-source-z80-design/ May be of interest both in the context of the Z80 and other unobtanium silicon The lead time is long, ~6 months Martin
[cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics
The D-25 PTR / PTP parallel interfaces are TTL, the ones I have had on the bench at any rate, typically using 74 series for interfacing and 5V rails. Generally, the data lines are on pins 1 to 8 after that it gets a bit YMMV and at the top end you get ground and exported voltage. Hence my Dostek's emulator is a good guide comment. Additionally, the pin out does not mimic what must be the later D-25 PC printer plug layout. An additional confounding factor is that PTR/PTP are substantially from the era when D-25 connectors were commonly used for RS232 serial comms, and quite a few featured serial interfaces : RTFM territory. +/- 12V levels were used for RS232 back in the day, these days a MAX3232 on 3v3/LVTTL with integral charge pumps for +/- 6v is typical. And of course RS-423, RS-422 and RS-485 are all potentially applicable interface circuit standards; however only RS-485 is not in the legacy category Numeric gloup Martin -Original Message- From: Jon Elson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 16 May 2024 22:20 To: Martin Bishop via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics On 5/16/24 15:15, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Micha > > That the board is TTL and 2 layer by the look of it makes reverse engineering > rather more tractable : good luck. > > The 25p D pin outs for readers/punches seem substantially > standardised, I believe the standard is RS-323 (all search attempts assume you mean RS-232). The logic levels are 12 V or so, so not quite TTL compatible. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics
Micha That the board is TTL and 2 layer by the look of it makes reverse engineering rather more tractable : good luck. The 25p D pin outs for readers/punches seem substantially standardised, I think you will find that the Dostek 440 manual (which is a solid state substitute for PTP / PTR) will get you a long way. The use case for PT after the early 70's seems to have primarily been CNC, feeding G code to machines. Additionally, the DEC PC-04/05 and PC-11 manuals / eng drws should provide a worked example from the same era (they are online). They look to be sprocket fed, and have (eg) details of motor / sprocket adjustment. You will also find Facit N4000 and 4070 documentation on line; however, 232 interfaces seem to be the prefered flavor GNT is another PTR/PTP OEM, again with some documentation online, model numbers include 36, 4601, 4604, 3406, 29 I have a Sanyo Denshi 2702 PTR (sprocket feed) which is on the gather dust manyana list. I have a serviceable friction feed / optical sense reader which I much prefer, the sprockets look to me like a paper shredding mechanism. HtH Martin -Original Message- From: Michael Fritsch via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 16 May 2024 17:02 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Michael Fritsch Subject: [cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics I know the document on bitsavers, but the series 700 is a complete different one. In this reader there is no clamp or breake or similar things, but a stepper motor which drives two sprocket wheels. Between the wheels is the optical sensor. In the moment I'm about to reverse engineer the board. The db25 connector at the back is almost completely populated. I would like to known what the pin are for. Very good, that Decitek still exists. I will write them. Micha Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > It looks as though Decitek remain in business > http://www.decitek.com/index.html > > Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decitek/ > > On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as > unusual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging > for stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read > operations, probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not > uncommon for the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp. The > circuitry to control this behaviour may be in the drive or controller or > shared; and then there are configuration links / switches ... > > An empirical approach is to scope / LA the sprocket and data bit outputs; > ideally with a tape loop. > > HtH; Martin >
[cctalk] Re: Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics
It looks as though Decitek remain in business http://www.decitek.com/index.html Scan of a series 700 reader manual on bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decitek/ On an optical reader, I would not recon the capstan running at power on as unusual - a pinch roller which engages for drive and a tape clamp engaging for stop motion are both common features. For simple single byte read operations, probably the paradigm used when the unit was built, it is not uncommon for the sprocket hole to stop feed and energise clamp. The circuitry to control this behaviour may be in the drive or controller or shared; and then there are configuration links / switches ... An empirical approach is to scope / LA the sprocket and data bit outputs; ideally with a tape loop. HtH; Martin -Original Message- From: Michael Fritsch via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 16 May 2024 15:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Michael Fritsch Subject: [cctalk] Papertape-Reader Decitek 442A9: need manual/schematics I have a Decitek 442A9 papertape reader which needs repair. I have already replaced the belt, but that is not enough. The reader behaves very strangely. It starts running as soon as I apply power. And there is another problem: when I load a tape, it rattles irregular during reading. This is not a mechanical problem, it seems to react to the pulse of the feed hole, which arrives at the wrong time. I'm pretty sure, that I have to adjust the sprockets somehow relative to the stop positions of the stepper motor. It was nothing to be found online except pictures of a similar model 443A9 at RICM: https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-8s-4. The controller board number is 30291A Does anyone happen to have the manual and/or schematics or any other documents? Thank you, Micha
[cctalk] Re: oscilloscopes
A little digging later ... I implemented the waterfall display eight years ago, outputing to a 1280 x 1024 monitor. 1920 x 1080 was supported, but I was outputing 1 Ki pt FFTs. The hardware platform was a Xilinx Zynq. An indication of 4k video capabilities is https://xilinx-wiki.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/A/pages/2611216385/Zynq+UltraScale+MPSoC+VCU+TRD+2023.1 Note the higher octane hardware used. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: 03 April 2024 18:38 << snip >> > Equally, FPGAs / SOCs can implement frame buffers; eg to output waterfall > displays. The fading memory would have to be in DRAM, FPGA memory is fast > but small 3 ns access time but only 240 ki by .. 2.18 Mi by (Zynq 10 .. 45, > the '45 is a corporate purchase). A ping pong buffer arrangement could > implement fading - computed in either processor (vector instructions) or > logic (raw muscle). The DAC input lines could supply the data. Agreed, and that would be an elegant way to emulate a CDC DD60. Or a GT40. You'd presumably want to use at least an HD level display signal (1920 by 1080), if not double that, to make it look right; less than that would give pixel artefacts that make it not look as vector-like as you would want. paul
[cctalk] Re: oscilloscopes
Ignore my last - incontinence or is it incompetence A fairly ordinary GPU, in a PC, could almost certainly provide an XY display with Z fade (long persistance phosphor). I use them for waterfall displays and they keep up - the data does of course arrive by E'net. Equally, FPGAs / SOCs can implement frame buffers; eg to output waterfall displays. The fading memory would have to be in DRAM, FPGA memory is fast but small 3 ns access time but only 240 ki by .. 2.18 Mi by (Zynq 10 .. 45, the '45 is a corporate purchase). A ping pong buffer arrangement could implement fading - computed in either processor (vector instructions) or logic (raw muscle). The DAC input lines could supply the data. Martin -Original Message- From: Guy Fedorkow via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 03 April 2024 16:02 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Guy Fedorkow Subject: [cctalk] Re: oscilloscopes Vintage computer enthusiasts might want to keep track of where to find CRT-based analog oscilloscopes, for use as output devices. The early MIT and Lincoln Labs computers used D/A converters to steer and activate the beam on analog scopes to draw vector images. Working on Whirlwind simulation, we've been able to get this technique to work with "real" oscilloscopes, e.g., Tek 475, but we have not yet found a single DSO that has X/Y _and_ Z inputs (let alone the required phosphor fade). Myself, I have a couple scopes with backups, so I'm not in the market for another one. But others might consider the option... /guy fedorkow Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 22:33:38 + From: Just Kant Subject: [cctalk] oscilloscopes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have more then I need. All the working ones are HP w/color crts, and as far as older, verifiably vintage tools (right down to the 680x0 processor in either) I have to admit I favor them as a brand. Call we an oddball, weird egg, badges I wear with pride. But who could resist the allure of the newer ultra portable, even handheld units (some with bandwidth or sampling rates to 50mhz). I'm a big cheapo. But there's no real reason to agonize over a 65 - 200$ or thereabouts acquisition. It's a bit tiring to wade through the piles of availability. I favor a desktop unit, larger screen (but not always, careful). But most of those need wall current I think? The convenience of a handheld battery powered unit obviously has it's benefits. I will always love and dote upon my color crt based HPs. But the damned things are so heavy, so unwieldy. Judy-Jude knocked my 54111d over, hit the paved floor, shook the house. And still works! Built to withstand an atomic bombardment.
[cctalk] Re: oscilloscopes
rfgh -Original Message- From: Guy Fedorkow via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 03 April 2024 16:02 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Guy Fedorkow Subject: [cctalk] Re: oscilloscopes Vintage computer enthusiasts might want to keep track of where to find CRT-based analog oscilloscopes, for use as output devices. The early MIT and Lincoln Labs computers used D/A converters to steer and activate the beam on analog scopes to draw vector images. Working on Whirlwind simulation, we've been able to get this technique to work with "real" oscilloscopes, e.g., Tek 475, but we have not yet found a single DSO that has X/Y _and_ Z inputs (let alone the required phosphor fade). Myself, I have a couple scopes with backups, so I'm not in the market for another one. But others might consider the option... /guy fedorkow Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 22:33:38 + From: Just Kant Subject: [cctalk] oscilloscopes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have more then I need. All the working ones are HP w/color crts, and as far as older, verifiably vintage tools (right down to the 680x0 processor in either) I have to admit I favor them as a brand. Call we an oddball, weird egg, badges I wear with pride. But who could resist the allure of the newer ultra portable, even handheld units (some with bandwidth or sampling rates to 50mhz). I'm a big cheapo. But there's no real reason to agonize over a 65 - 200$ or thereabouts acquisition. It's a bit tiring to wade through the piles of availability. I favor a desktop unit, larger screen (but not always, careful). But most of those need wall current I think? The convenience of a handheld battery powered unit obviously has it's benefits. I will always love and dote upon my color crt based HPs. But the damned things are so heavy, so unwieldy. Judy-Jude knocked my 54111d over, hit the paved floor, shook the house. And still works! Built to withstand an atomic bombardment.
[cctalk] Re: typical IC kits on Amazon and elsewhere
Mouser pass the SN7404 test https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=sn7404 SN74LS https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=sn74ls=y=y brings up 381 lines in stock; doubtless lots of package / packaging duplicates DS8641 (Q/U bus transceiver) and suchlike are of course quite another story : substantially unobtanium Martin -Original Message- From: Jonathan Chapman via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 31 March 2024 00:11 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Jonathan Chapman Subject: [cctalk] Re: typical IC kits on Amazon and elsewhere > Standard TTL 74XXX is drying up rather quickly. Futurlec still has > some TTL but 7404s are all gone. Even LS is hard to find. Ours comes from Mouser, between two part #s they have over 7,000 74LS04s in DIP packaging in stock. Didn't check ACT, HCT, or ALS. I don't think we've had a 7400 series part that we couldn't just order off Mouser in recent history, and we're usually buying QTY 100. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: VAX 4000 console SLU in need of some TLC
https://www.rapidonline.com/assmann-wsw-a-20141-6-pin-rj12-socket-black-50-1451 Not an MMJ socket, but a cousin - the key is central not offset, and perhaps a different footprint / orientation (but not all that is available) - something like this might match the PCB footprint, but require retermination of the console cable - alternatively it could donate a new contact pin, doubtless a horror to fit Martin -Original Message- From: Antonio Carlini via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 21 March 2024 22:59 To: Jonathan Stone ; anto...@acarlini.com Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Antonio Carlini Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 4000 console SLU in need of some TLC On 21/03/2024 22:03, Jonathan Stone wrote: > What kind of VAX 4000? One with DSSI connectors on the "S:U", or the > /VAX 4000-200/KA660, which has serial and Ethernet? IIRC you can > klludge up the latter using a KA630 SLU, and either re-using the > AUI/10base-2 part of the SLU, > or kludging one from a DEQNA/DELQA to act like the AUI-select switch > setting and AUI of the original Those come off the KA660 in a single > IDC connector, 50 pin if memory serves. > > I have no idea about substituting for DSSI. It's a VAX 4000-300 (KA670) in a BA440, so it has two DSSI, ethernet, the usual switches and LED display. I can switch ethernet between AUI and BNC (the green LEDs change) and I have known working DETPM AUI<->RJ45 interfaces, so ethernet may be OK. I have found one panel for a KA650 (uV 3500/3600) that has an OK connector but is otherwise a bit toasty, so I'll try carefully removing that tomorrow. If that goes OK, then I'll remove the MMJ socket from the VAX 4000 console SLU: it's dead so there's not really much risk here as long as I'm careful with the PCB. At least I could then tack on 6 wires and find a way of interfacing. I do have at least one H8584-AC, which is an MMJ socket and an RJ45 plug. So with a bit of measuring I could probably find an RJ45 socket and rig up some temporary franken-console. Or, if the KA650 donor is really too far gone, and its socket survives half a dozen cable insertion-removals with no harm, then I could just fit that in place. If the console ethernet doesn't work, I think I can drop in the DELQA with appropriate handles from the KA650 system ... I think that the BA440 Q-bus metalwork and the BA213 metalwork are compatible. If not I have one Q-bus DELQA panel and I'm sure that neither the VAX nor anything else in there with it care too much about RF interference these days! I can find new MMJ plugs all over the place (admittedly I'm assuming that Mouser and Farnell could actually supply them!!) but the corresponding sockets seem to be lost to time. Or at least they remain beyond my goolge-fu. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
[cctalk] Re: DEC Processor Books
The Great Western Railway is said to have used the Swindon DO staff to pose their resturant and buffet car shots Martin -Original Message- From: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 17 March 2024 15:44 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Nigel Johnson Ham Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC Processor Books One of the pictures, in the PDP8 book, I think, featured Jim Votava, my instructor on several PDP11 hardware courses at PK2, so they were real DEC people as far as I know cheers, Nigel On 2024-03-17 10:13, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I have often wondered about the people we find in the various DEC > Processor (and other) books. Were they models in staged > photo-sessions or were these candid shots from DEC facilities and if > so, can anyone identify who they might be. > > Looking thru some of the books again I came across an interesting > photo on page 42 of the 1981 pdp11 processor handbook / pdp11 04 > 24 34a 44 70. If you take a magnifier to the picture you will find > the system presented in that photo is not a pdp11 but a VAX. :-) I > wonder what other DEC systems are contained in these photos? > > bill -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
[cctalk] Re: Paper tape in casettes...
>> I would love to see a PDP-8 with 1/2 size flip chips using today's smaller >> logic. Can you get the logic ? Especially the bus / backplane driving parts. https://retrocmp.com/projects/qbone/326-qbone-unibone-alternative-bus-drivers Q-bus transceivers (DS8641 being a classic) are unobtainium in commercial qtys, the substitutes listed seem little more available Omnibus parts ... https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/pic16f13145 An 8..28 pin microcontroller with 32 (4-1) LUTs on 1.8 - 5 V supply, might control output transistors for roll your own bus transceivers Small, cheap and perhaps sufficiently fast / flexible; also, perhaps competition for the 22V10 ? Martin
[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal
Would an optical paper tape reader pass muster ;<) ... FWIW mine has variable sped and stop pedal capabilities, so you can be fairly gentle / careful - the feed arrangements are most important Museum donations can be done well, see eg https://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/pdp8/ProgrammesAndManualsList.html PDP8 tapes much of it standard stuff, with copies described as "written by", but also locally generated programs - a seam to mine Martin -Original Message- From: Henry Bent via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 01 February 2024 14:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Henry Bent Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 at 09:37, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2024, at 7:16 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The Enter museum in Switzerland has a nice library of docs. I found > > that museum to be chock full of interesting German and other > > computers. Worth the trip. > > Bill > > Is any of that online? > > One frustrating thing about various museums is that they have stuff, > but you can't access it. For example, I know a museum with a > collection of 1950s software on punched tape, but they refuse access > to it for reading it. > Generally I have found that access to special collections is conditional on having credentials that the museum is willing to accept. In that case I can imagine that the museum might be willing to allow inspection, perhaps supervised, but that they would not be willing to allow their media to be run through a punched tape reader because they were concerned about the possibility for damage. Did you talk to them about the possibility of some sort of optical scanning? -Henry
[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal
<> One standard work is "The First Computers : History and Architectures" Ed Rojas, et al MIT Press; 2002; ISBN 0-262-68137-4 US : 5 sections Germany : 7 sections UK : 5 sections Japan : 2 sections as an indication of activity <> In the UK context, where there is on-line documentation of the ICL 2900 series is a question I don't know the answer to There is of course an operational ICL 2966 at TNMoC, Bletchley Park Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 31 January 2024 18:53 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Wouter de Waal ; Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal > On Jan 31, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Wouter de Waal via cctalk > wrote: > > >> I have found that computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most >> interesting were never available in the US. > > Computers are much like motorcycles: many of the most interesting ones were > TERRIBLE! I wonder what fraction of early (before, say, 1955) computer work was done in the USA. A substantial fraction no doubt, but perhaps not as large as one might guess. A related question would be how much work was done outside the USA and UK. For that matter, similar questions could be asked about the amount of documentation preserved from various countries. One difficulty, I think, is that resources like bitsavers have a large proportion of US material. Maybe because of the predominance of the work, maybe in part because of the distribution of collectors. To pick one example, material -- even just a passing reference -- about the Philips PR8000 is very nearly nonexistent. And I see no trace of any other Dutch computer at all on Bitsavers. True, some stuff can be found in places like the CWI archive, though searching that can be rather painful. paul
[cctalk] Re: Vmebus
Ah, PPC VME cards, add VXworks, funky coprocessors, COTS IO and you have definitely got something best avoided : details would involve libations. The conduction cooled chassis are OK and worth repurposing. Contrariwise the VME bus is best avoided, whether classic 32b VME or the 64 bit revision. However, the connectors for VME 64x backplanes and the form factor have merit, but that is to depart from the past. Martin -Original Message- From: Wouter de Waal via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 31 January 2024 18:34 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Wouter de Waal Subject: [cctalk] Re: Vmebus > >Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what >make/model/config? I still use a couple of PPC VME boards (DY4 / Curtiss Wright 182/183/184, both Conduction-Cooled and Air-Cooled) to test the tail end of hardware that we are still shipping (by now EOL and basically NOS). But it's work, I don't find them interesting. If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-) W
[cctalk] Re: WWVB
Sceptical that MSF is a jammer for WWVB in North America. DCF (77k5, German) commonly provides better signal strength / reception than MSF in the UK. However, if RF is involved ... Martin -Original Message- From: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 15 January 2024 01:47 To: Jonathan Chapman via cctalk Cc: Nigel Johnson Ham Subject: [cctalk] Re: WWVB That would be good old MSF! https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal I wasn't aware of it being heard in NA though - maybe being in the great lakes is a bit too far. Bit it should still sync correctly! cheers, Nigel On 2024-01-14 20:41, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I agree with Don on the interference. We have a very high noise floor >> here in Toronto as well as being on the fringe > IIRC there's something on-frequency in England that often swamps WWVB on the > northeastern part of North America, too! > > Thanks, > Jonathan -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
[cctalk] Re: Address wrapping in PDP-11 MMU
OK, a faux descriptor would work round the documented checks which are on block number rather than EA - there is a hardware overide I'm delighted to hear that RSTS won't play along and set up for EA overflow Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: 17 November 2023 20:52 To: Martin Bishop Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [cctalk] Address wrapping in PDP-11 MMU Ok, but I think that's not what I meant. Suppose I have APR6 = 17 and length > 1. That means VA 140076 maps to physical address 1776, and VA 140100 maps to physical addres 2000 which when masked with 22 bits would end up at 0. The offset within the page is <= the page length. Meanwhile, I discovered that RSTS actually rejects attempts to map things this way. :-( paul > On Nov 17, 2023, at 2:24 PM, Martin Bishop > wrote: > > EK-DCJ11-UG-Pre DCJ11 Microprocessor User's Guide says it will abort [the > first processor guide on the shelf] > > $4.5.2.2 (p4-7) Page Length Field ... "The block number of the virtual > address is compared against the page length field to detect length errors" ... > > $4.7.1 MMR0 <14> Abort Page Length Error > > $4.7.1.1.2 Abort -- Page Length > > When descriptors exist as they do in the PAR / PDR pair it is usual to police > them. A QL at the manual indicates no exception behaviour for kernel mode or > an override. > > The behaviour may be model dependent, but if MMR0<14> is populated I should > expect an abort -- you could code the abort ISR for desired behaviour and > return > > It would be easier to build hardware without the checking, but harder to > debug the system. > > Martin > > -Original Message- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] > Sent: 17 November 2023 18:16 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Address wrapping in PDP-11 MMU > > I'm working on some code where it would be handy to map the top of the I/O > page along with the bottom of physical memory. An obvious hack is to point > the APR to the I/O page address needed, then set the length so that the > address modulo 2^22 also covers the low memory range. > > It seems from the architecture manual that this would work, and SIMH seems to > do this (since it adds VA and PAR then masks with a 22 bit mask). Would this > work on real hardware? > > paul >
[cctalk] Re: Address wrapping in PDP-11 MMU
EK-DCJ11-UG-Pre DCJ11 Microprocessor User's Guide says it will abort [the first processor guide on the shelf] $4.5.2.2 (p4-7) Page Length Field ... "The block number of the virtual address is compared against the page length field to detect length errors" ... $4.7.1 MMR0 <14> Abort Page Length Error $4.7.1.1.2 Abort -- Page Length When descriptors exist as they do in the PAR / PDR pair it is usual to police them. A QL at the manual indicates no exception behaviour for kernel mode or an override. The behaviour may be model dependent, but if MMR0<14> is populated I should expect an abort -- you could code the abort ISR for desired behaviour and return It would be easier to build hardware without the checking, but harder to debug the system. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 17 November 2023 18:16 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Address wrapping in PDP-11 MMU I'm working on some code where it would be handy to map the top of the I/O page along with the bottom of physical memory. An obvious hack is to point the APR to the I/O page address needed, then set the length so that the address modulo 2^22 also covers the low memory range. It seems from the architecture manual that this would work, and SIMH seems to do this (since it adds VA and PAR then masks with a 22 bit mask). Would this work on real hardware? paul
[cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive
The cost of implementing a linear regulator will be modest, measured in £s rather than 10's for the components. Much of the actual cost will be in the pin board layout; FWIW I have found 3 mm PTFE sheet, drilled as required and fitted with crimp castle posts works nicely. One merit of (wide range) linear regulation is that you can ramp up the power rail(s) during commissioning / fault finding and possibly release less / no magic essence. Regarding the audiophile magic products I think due diligence is the way forward. However, fertile ground for 1 April pranks. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: 13 October 2023 18:32 To: Martin Bishop Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [cctalk] IBM 727 tape drive > On Oct 13, 2023, at 1:07 PM, Martin Bishop > wrote: > > The valve audio afficionados / suppliers also offer both wisdom and > components, e.g. > > https://skillbank.co.uk/psu/ and many other sites / blogs > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Designing-Power-Supplies-Amplifiers-Second/dp/0956154549 > > https://shop.elsevier.com/books/valve-amplifiers/jones/978-0-08-096640-3 and > many other titles > > https://www.ampmaker.com/shop/vcb-vvr-voltage-control-kit/ and numerous > other kits for worked examples > > https://www.thatsaudio.co.uk/product-category/valve-amplifier-transformers-chokes/amplifier-valves-accessories/power-transformers/ I wonder if makers of ham radio focused products are likely to be more economical. Tube audio has some cult aspects to it, and may have pricing to match. (Monster Cable comes to mind as an analogous case.) > Regulation is typically effected by a high voltage N-fet or similar device > see e.g. > - https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/lnd150# etc etc > - https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/snva020 etc etc Yes, that works if you need regulated power. You can also use tubes to regulate (see the 1967 Handbook on archive.org). That assumes regulation is even needed, which is not often the case for tube circuits. Also, a simple shunt regulator is often adequate, either a classic neon tube or a Zener diode (or a couple in series if you need a higher voltage). I haven't worked with tube computer or logic circuits, but tube circuits in transmitters or receivers are not normally regulated, with the exception of LC oscillators. For those, a typical design would just use a neon tube shunt regulator. paul
[cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive
The valve audio afficionados / suppliers also offer both wisdom and components, e.g. https://skillbank.co.uk/psu/ and many other sites / blogs https://www.amazon.co.uk/Designing-Power-Supplies-Amplifiers-Second/dp/0956154549 https://shop.elsevier.com/books/valve-amplifiers/jones/978-0-08-096640-3 and many other titles https://www.ampmaker.com/shop/vcb-vvr-voltage-control-kit/ and numerous other kits for worked examples https://www.thatsaudio.co.uk/product-category/valve-amplifier-transformers-chokes/amplifier-valves-accessories/power-transformers/ Regulation is typically effected by a high voltage N-fet or similar device see e.g. - https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/lnd150# etc etc - https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/snva020 etc etc Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 13 October 2023 14:57 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 727 tape drive > On Oct 13, 2023, at 4:41 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > And the interesting part will be to build the DC power supply for the many > voltages (-270V, -130V, -60V, +140V, +270V) and the heater supply. A good source for information on how to do that would be an older edition of the ARRL Amateur Radio Handbook. Those can be found, from used book dealers. I have a 1954 edition that would do well, though one from the 1960s is likely also good (perhaps better since the earlier ones would have vacuum rectifiers, which in a newly built supplly isn't optimal). Chances are those voltages don't need to be tightly regulated, not like trying to build a TWT supply... so the main thing is the transformer(s). Those too can still be found, or can be built; Hammond (Peter Dahl) is still in that business. The heater supply is typically just a suitably large 6.3 or 12.6 volt transformer. paul
[cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue...
Once upon a time DS... was (other things apart) Dallas, then Maxim, now Analog Devices. Mouser says DS 1553 & DS1643 are obsolete. However, there appears to be aftermarket activity: - https://www.radwell.co.uk/en-GB/Search/?q=ds1553 - https://www.radwell.co.uk/en-GB/Search/?q=ds1643 - which implies purchase & DIY possibilities ... Seems to be the sort of part under discussion HtH, Martin -Original Message- From: erik--- via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 24 September 2023 17:24 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: e...@baigar.de Subject: [cctalk] Re: Tadpole/RDI UltraBooks - UNIX notebooks - species needs rescue... Just checked the datasheets: The NVRAMs of the UltraBooks I know of are the DS1643 and the DS1553. Both should be similar enough to be read/write by any reader that supports the DS1643 or the DS1553. Of course I'd offer creating an modified Arduino doing the task, to test it and to supply it to anyone who is willing to dump his NVRAM!!!
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Paul A Zynq '30 has 125,000 Logic Cells, a ZU4EG has 192,000 logic cells. Both can be synthesised with the free tools. You may of course get more LCs on a supported FPGA, vice SoC. Logic cell is a marketing term, the engineering equivalent would be "LUT4 + FF". Google assures me that a Logic cell is ~15 ASIC gates. So the Z30's fabric looks like it may be a 2 M ASIC gate equivalent device. YMMV I look forward to hearing reports on what its utility is for implementing the 6600. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: 23 September 2023 19:36 The 6600 model I'm building is a gate level model, so it is cycle-accurate, but also large. I'm figuring several hundred thousand gates, which makes sense if you consider the module count for a 6600. A large enough FPGA for that seems to have enough on-chip memory for both PP and CP memories, leaving only ECS as off-chip. That's helpful because both PP and CP have tightly constrained cycles; DRAM would be nearly impossible to make work, though SRAM is doable. paul
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Mike I shall focus a few specifics I did 30+ years of software, with occasional hardware toys, before I added 20 years of Hw, FPGA & Sw : old dogs can learn. FPGA logic source has more in common with software than old school (SSI / MSI / LSI) hardware. With the bonus that it all happens in parallel. Essentially you instantiate lots of little processors / state machines, with some interconnect and some IO knitting. It has not got any better since the OmiBus data break spec, the AXI spec is sufficiently complex that testing DMA interfaces is done at a minimum with verification IP. Although AXI busses do at least have a "global" synchronous clock. Interface complexity / verification is just one of those little challenges. I appreciate that OmniBus is not a multiplexed bus, like Q-bus. I was suggesting that you could multiplex the bus signals to/fr your processing hardware to enable the use of cheaper/simpler hardware. Of course, YMMV. The data being on either memory or data bus would not defeat an FPGA, as it would know the state of RnW and make the appropriate comparison. And, in VHDL it would all read like "parallel" Ada. Down to 0.5 mm pitch gull wing legs can be readily hand soldered by a wireman. Surface mount double sided PCBs can be hand assembled (by me), in small quantities, by restricting the components to 0603 and 0.65 mm pitch using an under board heater and hot air. The fine pitch stuff goes on first. OTOH a good wireman can hand solder 0402 components. So, don't back off completely from SMD. You "only" need: a quartz heater, a hot air wand, and a solder paste dispenser (you spit it on by hand). Note that surface tension squares everything up and moves the solder onto the pads; which need to be (hand assembly) oversize. NB this approach is for very low volume / zero budget / assemble tonight work; for serious boards / volumes you send the kit to the assembler. BGAs are another story - dodge them; e.g. use https://digilent.com/shop/cmod-a7-35t-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/ or similar to apply FPGAs in a 0.1" DIL form factor, at LVTTL levels. You could build an OmniBus interface with two of these, some bus interface chips 74LVC for Rx, something OD (and not too fast) for Tx, and a "host" processor. Best Regards Martin -Original Message- From: Mike Katz [mailto:bit...@12bitsbest.com] Sent: 23 September 2023 01:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Martin, Thank you for all of your suggestions. I am a software guy who has dabbled in hardware since I built my first Heathkit in 1972. I have designed simple 6809 single boards in my past professional life but the Omnibus is several orders of magnitude more complicated than a 6809. Just reading the Single Cycle Data Break documentation in the Omnibus spec is enough to give me a headache. I think in C much better than I think in logic gates. I can write parallel C to describe parallel circuits. The last time I programmed any programmable logic it was FPGA's of the 10L8/16V10 variety. Sometimes the data is on the memory bus, sometimes it is on the data bus, depending on whether you are reading or writing to memory, for example. There is no bus multplexing between address and data or data and memory busses. Here is the basic definition of the Omnibus: Memory Address: 15 Signals Memory Data: 12 Signals Memory Direction: 1 Signal Data Bus: 12 Signals I/O Control Signals: 10 Signals DMA Control Signals: 8 Signals Timing Signals: 9 Signals CPU State: 6 Signals Memory Timing: 5 Signals Misc Signals: 18 Signals (Mostly used by the front panel) One of my goals here is to use thru hole parts and sockets so the average person can assemble it. I realize this may be impossible bit I'm trying. I have a good surface mount contract manufacturer close to my home that I have a business relationship will so I can go to full surface mount if I have to but that will increase the cost of the boards. On 9/22/2023 6:53 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Mike > > An M0 will require an FPGA below it to interact with the OmniBus > > A BeagleBone, using the PRUs - which are ~microcoded, would be in with > more of a chance > > Industrial grade SoCs / FPGAs should have no difficulty > > Martin > > -Original Message- > From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] > Sent: 23 September 2023 00:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Mike Katz > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > > I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 > running at 133 MHz and 8 PIO
[cctalk] FW: Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Mike A key factor is that 60 years have passed: - the PDP8/E (and its chums) were core store machines - the bus time slots are 300 + 250 + 350 + 300 ns = 1200 ns [T1 T2 T3 T4 phases of core access] - FPGA fabric can trivially run at 100 MHz, and talk to an AXI bus + Arm Core - SoCs have 32 / 64 bit “external” data busses - Arm cores run at 666 MHz and above - consequently the test hardware is ~3 orders of magnitude faster than the old iron, wider and capable of performing lots of (hardware) logic in 10 ns – a cascade of 10 LUT6’s is not unreasonable on a mid range FPGA. To cut to the chase, a clone of the UniBone should be possible and largely a software project – there is a large body of code and experience to build on and the Omni and Uni / Q Busses are similar. The 96 signals need not define the scale of the FPGA / SoC hardware. There is probably scope for multiplexing / serialising the lines to / from the OmniBus – I should think the RetroCmp designs use this technology – unfortunately I have not had the time to read them sufficiently carefully to say. Interfacing between the omnibus and an FPGA / SoC will require debouncing and a metastable hardened synchronisers (~3 stages of FFs) to bring the signals into the FPGA/SoC synchronous domain. Beyond a Schmidt trigger / equivalent front end this is a job for modern digits, in the input FPGA/CPLD(s). Re your specific requirements: 1)Was a hardware task 60 years ago, It would now be trivial to do it with an FPGA controlled by any reasonable processor 2)You should be able to this by bit banging over JTAG, maybe with a little hardware assist 3)Sequencer breakpoints in FPGAs are straightforward, provide the condition and it pulls the stop line; all that is required are condition register sets and comparison logic 4)see comment above re Mux/Serial 5)I should think avoiding stubs will be more important than the specific input devices I would restate your needs / the design as: a)bus interface b)FPGA interface c)bus receiving, driving, uC demand (e.g. DMA, FP emulation, breakpoint conditions) and reactive logic d)uC code HtH; Best Regards Martin From: Mike Katz [mailto:bit...@12bitsbest.com] Sent: 22 September 2023 22:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> Cc: Martin Bishop mailto:mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com>> Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Martin, The debug board will need to have the following functionality: 1. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is running using one cycle data break (DEC's version of DMA for the PDP-8). Single Cycle DMA requires some interesting signaling, including putting the priority on the data bus during part of the cycle. 2. Read and write to/from memory when the CPU is halted using front panel emulation (something totally different than one cycle data break unfortunately) 3. Handle 4 breakpoints (based on address, data, R/W and count) and signal the cpu to stop. I don't know, yet, if there will be enough time in the CPU's instruction cycle to top the CPU before the fetch of the next instruction. If this cannot be done in hardware than a much more crude break point system can be done in software. 4. There are 96 active signals on the PDP-8/E's Omnibus. I expect to need most or all of them for this project. 5. The Omnibus is an open drain, active low bus where +2.7V to +4.5V is a zero and -0.5 to +0.4V is a one. I don't necessarily need a 5V tolerant gate array but what ever I use to interface to the bus will need to be. A full description of the Omnibus can be found here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00157_00_A_DEC_STD_157_OMNIBUS_Specification_Aug76.pdf Coding the break point system in some kind of parallel C like language seems way easier to me than to write this in gates. I don't have a clue how to design the count registers. I need to get #'s 1 and 2 working first and then I can dive into #3. Thanks.
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Paul I endorse your point regarding Lattice's gouging. Support for anything prior to the XO parts now costs a significant premium. Their XO2 parts are the most useful to this community - free tools and 0.5 mm pitch, e.g. 100p & 144p - not dense but usefully large, 3v3 IO and agricultural assembly. The Xilinx free tools no longer have license files, which was how Lattice cut us all off at the pass. The current Vivado ML Standard Edition (tools to normal people) are free up to the XC7Z030 - which is a fairly serious device. I have a PDP-11 and space to spare running in the markedly smaller XC7Z010; 16b / no MMU, most of the 45 instruction set. FPGA are (organically) memory poor - perhaps because the access time is ~3 ns. I should think you would be in with a chance of fitting the 6600 logic, however on a '30 you have 265 x 4 ki by BRAMs = ~1 Mi By, if more is required either a dedicated external memory device or DMA to/fr DRAM would be required. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: 23 September 2023 01:46 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Re: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler > On Sep 22, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk > wrote: > > 100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job with > - penknife grade. > > Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all the > consequent tar pits; see above. > > VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of languages > precludes many follies. > The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as pedantic as > the older standards '97 & '83. I only know VHDL but I had heard that Verilog is C-like, and yes, C offers an unusually large set of tools to shoot yourself in the foot with. So it wouldn't surprise me that Verilog does likewise, which certainly means that it would be the option to avoid. VHDL is very clearly based on Ada, which like Pascal and ALGOL takes data types seriously rather than only as suggestions the way C does. I've built some very large designs with VHDL, but not because I actually wrote that much code -- a lot is generated code produced from wire lists. But I did write all the models of all the 6000 modules, which does add up. Apart from vendor tools for producing bits for particular FPGAs, you can also find VHDL simulators that just simulate a model but don't deliver it to a particular chip. I use GHDL, which is part of the GCC toolset. Yes, a VHDL compiler, interesting. Among other things, it allows you to link bits in other languages, so I can take device models from the DtCyber emulator and attach them to a VHDL-modeled I/O channel. On FPGAs, it's worth checking what the story is for vendor tools. Some devices and vendors try to suck large sums of money out of you for them; Lattice is an example. Even for small devices (like the ispLSI2032 I used years ago) that expense adds up rapidly. I think they have become somewhat more reasonable now, offering free tools for the smaller devices. I know Xilinx does so, and "smaller" covers a surprising amount of capacity these days. I'm pretty sure a PDP-11 model would fit fine in one of those "free tool" devices, though a CDC 6600 probably won't. paul
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Mike An M0 will require an FPGA below it to interact with the OmniBus A BeagleBone, using the PRUs - which are ~microcoded, would be in with more of a chance Industrial grade SoCs / FPGAs should have no difficulty Martin -Original Message- From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 23 September 2023 00:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Katz Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler I plan on controlling the gate array with an RP2040 dual core cortex M0 running at 133 MHz and 8 PIO processors. However, the Data Break (DMA) timings on the Omnibus are in the 100nS range. The bus runs 6 different timing signals plus manipulating all of the other signals to implement Data Break. I just don't think a micro would be fast enough. That same holds for the break point. In order to be able to respond to address, data, r/w and count for 4 breakpoints in the <1uS window to stop the CPU before the start of the next cycle would stress most embedded micros (sub $10 micros anyway). The PDP-8/E main clocks are derived from a 20MHz crystal (That's a 50nS minimum timing). Quoting the DEC Omnibus Standard Document Memory, Address and Data must be settled within 50nS minimum and no more than 250nS depending on what is going on on the bus. There is a boot strap board that emulates the front panel with an Arduino and an I/O expander. But to implement Data Break requires much more tight timing. This bus was designed to handle core memory which requires a write after read because the read is destructive. On 9/22/2023 5:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. > > Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic > couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, > 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... > > --Chuck > >
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Chuck, Your point is wholly valid, although the core will run more at 1 GHz than 200 MHz. The UniBone http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone is a UniBus board capable of monitoring the unibus and of emulating CPU / rotating rust / memory / ... With the bulk of the logic in c on an Arm Processor. Jay Jaeger has just elaborated the UniBone's essentials. Martin -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 22 September 2023 23:53 To: ben via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler Stupid question, I know, but someone has to ask it. Is there some overwhelming reason that the FPGA and associated logic couldn't be subsumed into an inexpensive 32-bit MCU running at, oh, 200 MHz? I can't believe that a PDP8 is all that fast... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
Mike
The level you are working at, inspecting busses, is not really where C like
tools are targeted - however ...
I shall infer that an 8/E debug board has the functionality of a bus monitor /
logic analyser front end.
The recent discussion <> covered
a lot of similar ground : worth reviewing.
Also, the debug tools for 11's on http://retrocmp.com/
https://digilent.com/shop/cora-z7-zynq-7000-single-core-for-arm-fpga-soc-development/
provides ~79 IOs on an Arduino footprint ('orrible) - quick cheap suggestion
for a candidate hardware platform.
That means you are using the AMD (Xilinx) toochain:
- Vivado as the HDL IDE : VHDL & Verilog, a flakey simulator, HLS (High Level
Synthesis) [c like] tools and IP generation capabilities.
-- inside Vivado a block diagram editor which with a bit of pro forma IP
generation might build your logic without any HDL
-- also inside the IP library / Vivado logic analyser capabilities (ILAs) for
capturing / displaying bus signals
-- and HLS implements SystemC or somesuch : a toolset for C to parallel
hardware development
- Vitis, which is basically Eclipse, for programming the hard Arm core(s)
If you wish an HDL simulator, download Microchip's FPGA development tools - you
get ModelSim.
This will be quite sufficient for pre-synthesis bebug, if you have to simulate
post synthesis revisit the design fundamentals.
There was discussion further up the chain of voltage translation / clipping.
Another cheap and nasty way of doing it is Zenner diodes - works well on perf
board.
Todays (fairly) Gucci voltage clamp is an N-FET with a suitable gate voltage;
there were "octal" devices using this teknik.
Voltage translation devices remain quite common, but anything more assembly
friendly than SOIC less common.
However,74LVT is both 3v3 powered, possessed of 5V tollerant inputs and (maybe
just still) in DIL packages, e.g. 74LVT244
Another handy family is 74LVC1G (and 2G ...) which also accepts 5V inputs when
running on 3v3 rails, e.g. 74LVC1G17
If you require HiZ, specific thresholds or hysteresis, comparators are your
friend, e.g. TLV3501AIDBV (SOT-23)
Best Wishes
Martin
-Original Message-
From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 22 September 2023 17:05
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Mike Katz
Subject: [cctalk] Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
I'm working on the design for an Omnibus (PDP-8/E) debug board and I am not
very good at circuit design. I know there are programs that will compile
something that looks like C into Verilog/VHDL/Abel/Etc for use on some kind of
large (more than 64 pins) programmable logic device.
Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic?
Thank you,
Mike
[cctalk] Re: Good C to FPGA/PLA compiler
100% disagree, Verilog and SV are bad tools - very easy to do a bad job with - penknife grade. Verilog however is very c like in that it is untyped and prone to all the consequent tar pits; see above. VHDL is a good tool which is typed and like the Algol family of languages precludes many follies. The 2008 flavor, which is where the tools are curently, is not as pedantic as the older standards '97 & '83. However, any non trivial FPGA design work requires an understanding of FPGA (not SSI/MSI) logic, an HDL and the toolchain(s). Quite a lot of learning / experience. Martin Oh, and Verilog all the way. I just can't with VHDL. -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com Can any of you recommend a good C like tool for programmable logic? Thank you, Mike
[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?
The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford Martin -Original Message- From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Shoppa, Tim Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology? Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask: Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cabin display? Examples: https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visible segmentation? I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might expect with either of those technologies. The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the left and right edges which might be a clue? Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment green LED display. Don't need help with that one . Tim N3QE
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
>Did Algol in general have memory leaks?,or is just C and Windows. This is very much from recollection of programming in Algol 60 & 68, 40+ years ago. Algol60 did not have heap storage or pointers IIRC Therefore no potential for memory leaks Algol68R had fairly agressive garbage collection, which generally precluded memory leaks, in a language with dynamic arrays, ref ref ref pointers, etc. Also, the small memory model of initially 32 kiW address space - which is all I can recollect ever using on an unpaged time sharing machine ICL 1904S with (IIRC) 256 kiWd of physical memory - leads to a rather more static programming style. The grandchild of the Algols and this style of programming is perhaps subset Ada A wag might observe that programmers may have memory leaks, that teams generate memory leaks, and that organisations lack corporate memory. Martin
[cctalk] Re: TI 960
Some of the Analog Devices Sharcs have similar interconnection topologies, e.g. the ADSP-21160 had six bytewide link ports, doubtless an expressio of the sincerest form of flatery. Subsequent Sharcs were more targeted to single DSP functionality. The baremetal 12 Sharc boards I worked on were for masochists. Martin -Original Message- From: David Arnold via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 05 September 2023 06:22 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: David Arnold Subject: [cctalk] Re: TI 960 > On 5 Sep 2023, at 06:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: … > Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers? Closest thing to a Transputer from TI I can think of were the C-series DSP chips: eg TMS 320C40, although they used 6x byte-wide parallel ports not the 4x bit-wide serial ports of the Transputer. Some Transputer software was ported to them, including Perihelion’s Helios operating system, iirc. d
[cctalk] Re: Signetics N8220B ??
Package type, pin count, date code, other hints Either number might be a yyww date code, one of them probably is Giggle offers numerous responses to 7536 IC and 8220 IC Old enough they mght be in an IC cross reference book Good luck Martin -Original Message- From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 28 August 2023 14:24 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Holm Tiffe Subject: [cctalk] Signetics N8220B ?? Hi guys, I have 8 "new" Chips from Signetics, they are labeled: S7536 N8220B and on the backside between the pins "8220". Does anyone know what they do? My search with google and in the 1976 Signetics Date Manual (from Bitsavers) wasn't helpful... Thanx in advance, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 i...@tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
[cctalk] Re: Logic Analyzers - HP/Agilent 16700B or 1670G?
You could try an AMD (ex Xilinx) logic analyser ... Basically, use the logic analysis capabilities provided (free) by FPGA OEMs to construct a DIY LA. In brief, the LA is in the FPGA libraries / GUI, you do of course have to wire them up both inside (Vivado) and outside (level shifters and copper wire) the FPGA. Boards which are not too expensive, and have 0.1" (ish) LVTTL interfacing are: - https://digilent.com/shop/arty-z7-zynq-7000-soc-development-board/ which should yield ~79 digital IOs - https://digilent.com/shop/cora-z7-zynq-7000-single-core-for-arm-fpga-soc-development/ again ~79 - https://digilent.com/shop/cmod-a7-35t-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/ 52 digital IO (mux A and D outboard ?) See "Re: Low cost logic analyzer" by self on 15 Mar 23 for a previous, more detailed post. You may also care to consider retrocmp's offerings: - see e.g. http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/unibone Martin -Original Message- From: John H. Reinhardt via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 20 August 2023 19:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: John H. Reinhardt Subject: [cctalk] Logic Analyzers - HP/Agilent 16700B or 1670G? Hello all. I looking around for a Logic Analyzer for doing (mostly) DEC QBus/UniBus stuff. Being the way I am I want something with enough lines to handle the most of the signals so I'm guessing something with roughly 80-ish channels. I think that lets out all/most of the USB based LA. I've looked around and it seems the the HP/Agilent 16700 series (16700B/16702B) are probably what I want. I've also seen the 1670G which also seems quite doable. I've seen a lot of posts at the EEVblog and it seems I missed possibly the golden age of 16700 LA by a few years price-wise. What I'm wondering is if there is something specific I should be looking for, or opinions on which LA is more suitable. Or even if there is a different make of LA to look for. Thanks in advance for your help John H. Reinhardt
[cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11
For info on DAC internals, have a look at https://www.analog.com/en/education/education-library/analog-digital-conversion-1986.html Part 2 details basic A/D & D/A architectures Current output converters are: - less common than voltage output DACs - and, if a ladder conversion architecture is used, lurking inside voltage output DACs behind a transimpedance amplifier (I to V converter) I would be very surprised if the AAV11 does not output buffered volts Lots of other good reference material on analog.com, TI.com is also worth a look Martin PS Most contemporary audio work uses SigmaDelta converters, see e.g. Analog Devices AN-283 and MT-022 -Original Message- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 11 July 2023 17:29 To: Mike Katz via cctalk Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 The DACs on the AAV11-C board are not marked in any revealing way. I think they are Burr Brown DAC80, 24 pin, but I'm not sure. I wasn't sure if they were working and was looking for a replacement. Looking at the spec sheets DAC's seem to come in Voltage or Current versions. Life got more complicated. This started out as a simple exercise into verifying the AAV11-C operation using PDP11GUI to program up a basic program to run all the codes thru the DAC. It worked, got a ramp out. Now, I'm starting to look at the KWV11-C and how to use that to send values to the DAC at a controllable rate. Doug -- On 7/11/2023 11:41 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I originally used R-2R DACs but I was lucky enough to be able to buy a > couple of DAC08 chips at Radio Shack and built a circuit using 74LS244 > latching buffers so that I could drive both channels of a single 8-bit > parallel port and 2 extra control lines (Select and Strobe). > > On 7/11/2023 6:43 AM, ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: >>> On 07/10/2023 11:31 PM AEST Mike Katz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> Way back in the 80's I was able to do stereo 4 part harmony on a 2 >>> MHZ >>> 6809 using two 8-bit D/A converters. >> Much the same here. I recounted this on VCFed a few months ago about >> building a simple 2-chip 8-bit ladder DAC with one-transistor >> amplifier for my Applied Technology DG680 S100 machine back in the >> early 80s from this absolutely excellent BYTE article on how to do >> polyphonic synthesis on a microcomputer (KIM-1): >> >> https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-09/page/n63/mode/2up >> >> A schoolfriend who had an Apple ][ and had not done any Z80 machine >> code before asked for me to hand him my Zaks book, upon which he >> wrote out one attempt in Z80, crossed it out and wrote a second >> version. Which worked perfectly. For the music piece I got it to play >> four-voice polyphony after painstakingly encoding Bach's Praeludium >> in C Major from my mothers' collection of piano music scores. >> >> A few years ago I had thoughts about porting the 6502 code to the >> PDP-11 and use the same sort of ladder DAC. Not sure if the slimline >> 11/05 would be fast enough for anything too high frequency, but if it >> was, the slimline 05's power supply could then temporarily come out >> and be perhaps be powered off some beefy batteries in that space, >> along with a small 1970s transistor amp and 1970s headphones topped >> off with a leather shoulder strap to lug it around like a giant Walkman. >
[cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11
Doug You have the essence of what it can do and how it might do it, an old iron PDP-11 / LSI-11 can't organically do the signal processing necessary to go from a compact signal representation to audio. That said you could use a one bit output, which would for efficiency require a serialiser, to drive a sigma delta converter, e.g. https://digilent.com/shop/pmod-i2s2-stereo-audio-input-and-output/, to convert a word stream to sound. Generating the I2S bit stream is of course an XFU, probably doable from a DRV11 type interface, with a fair bit of logic or your favorite microcontroller as intermediary. A 7 kHz sample rate will not be easily achieved, unless you can use an external clock or plug in an "optimal" oscillator, e.g. the classic example (but not for this requirement) is one running at a multiple of baud rate frequencies, 12M288 Hz say. On these old boards, frequency = oscillator / prescaler / divisor. Generally, the divisor is the "round" number and the frequency is the fractional mess. Also, the prescalers may be powers of two, ten, or 1/2/5 : YMMV. The sort of thing you could demonstrate as audio output from your hardware is either Morse or audio composed of phonemes. The Morse would require some evolution of the test generator I described and a little tapering of the attack / decay of the di dah dit sounds to avoid harshness, or could be done from canned waveforms (returning to 0V). The phonemes might generate text to speech of 1980's (i.e. contemporary period) standard. Have fun Martin -Original Message- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 10 July 2023 02:20 To: Martin Bishop via cctalk Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11 Wow! Actual engineers responding... It looks like I could only do the most rudimentary audio. 1. Sample Rate: You got maybe 20K samples to store in lower memory. At 7KHz sample rate that would allow 3 seconds of audio. Voice only. 2. Samples: They must be 12 bits. Converting a modern audio clip requires, band filtering, resampling and mapping to 12 bit integers. Could be done in python, they have libraries. 3. Clocking output: I have a KMV11, but never programmed around it. 4. Amplify output: AAV11-C produces -10 to +10 volts, have to divide this down for input to an audio amp. In the end I will have undone all the advances made in digital audio in the last 30 to 40 years. Doug On 7/9/2023 4:09 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > You just did use it to play "audio" :<) > > The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not that > you will ever get there or would wish to. > > The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is > Fs = 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work > to get close without significant distortion. These old DACs are all > but certain to use ladder circuits [see e.g. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] the settlng time will > mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g. > https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp- > achieve-90ns-settling-to-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for > bleeding edge examples]. To see something other than ringing on a > scope you want at least 10 samples per cycle, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth > (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at 30 kHz or greater. A > low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will round off the > corners - set the corner just above the passband > > DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to > avoid sample jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do > what you can with a sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10 > MHz you could get an interupt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30 > kHz. The interupt then controls the play out from a table or disk ;<) > > For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in > memory. Say you are playing out at Fs = 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample > table. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter the > output frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output > frequency = Fs * stride / table length. > > From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <11> > is ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offset > voltage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. > > Have fun and good luck > > Martin > > -Original Message- > From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] > Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Douglas Taylor > Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 > > I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/
[cctalk] Re: Talking PDP11
You just did use it to play "audio" :<) The 6 us settling time corresponds to a sampling rate of ~167 kHz, not that you will ever get there or would wish to. The theoretical (real) sampling rate required for a given bandwith is Fs = 2 Bw. That requires brick wall filters and it is a lot of work to get close without significant distortion. These old DACs are all but certain to use ladder circuits [see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_ladder] the settlng time will mostly come from the output buffer [see e.g. https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltc1668-dac-lt1807-opamp-achieve-90ns-settling-to-16bits-83db-sfdr-small-footprint.html for bleeding edge examples]. To see something other than ringing on a scope you want at least 10 samples per cycle, e.g. for 3 kHz bandwidth (i.e. 0 - 3 kHz frequency coverage) output at 30 kHz or greater. A low pass (reconstruction in the argot) filter will round off the corners - set the corner just above the passband DMA, a local FIFO or at least double buffering are the minimum to avoid sample jitter. On basic hardware you will probably have to do what you can with a sampling clock derived from the RTC card, from 10 MHz you could get an interupt at 40 kHz or 25 kHz but maybe not 30 kHz. The interupt then controls the play out from a table or disk ;<) For testing you can do quite a lot with a single cycle sine wave table in memory. Say you are playing out at Fs = 30 kHz, and you have a 30 k sample table. By varying the step through the table from 15k to 1 you can alter the output frequency from 15 kHz to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments; i.e. output frequency = Fs * stride / table length. From a VQ look at the AAV11 docs it uses the bottom 12 bits, doubtless <11> is ms, hopefully it will like 2's complement numbers and the analog offset voltage will be trimmed for bipolar signals. Have fun and good luck Martin -Original Message- From: Douglas Taylor via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 09 July 2023 19:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Douglas Taylor Subject: [cctalk] Talking PDP11 I have a PDP-11/53 and have just started playing with an AAV11-C D/A board. It is a 4 channel D/A convertor with 12 bit resolution. Can it be used to play an audio bit stream? Here is simple code used to see if the thing was actually working: .title AAV11 D/A test ; .asect dbr0 = 170440 .=1000 start: mov #,r0 4096 value to R0 mov #dbr0,r1 first D/A buffer out loop: mov r0,(r1) transfer value in r0 to D/A out dec r0 subtract 1 from D/A value bne loop br start loop back to start I was surprised to see that it took ~34 ms to run through all the numbers from 0-, that is about 34 Hz. The manual says the 'settling time' is 6 microseconds. Is this fast enough for audio? How would you convert a modern audio file into 12 bit integers? Doug
[cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable
50 pin DD connectors are alive and well on the backplanes of some day job ATRs with new electronics in the old VME form factor. 3 x 16 STPs pass through them very nicely en route to front panel connectors. Both dense, decently robust and legacy compliant. More generally, if you have access to a Daniels AFM8 crimp tool and positioner, the Harting crimp contact Dsubs are very good for odd jobs; e.g. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/d-sub-connectors/1007759 The turned pin contacts are much preferable to the bent tin ones e.g. https://www.peigenesis.com/en/shop/part-information/M3902964369/TRI/EACH/301791.html Unfortunately, while the bodies are inexpensive the pins and infrastructure are not. More positively, the connectors don't noticeably degrade with rework. Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 28 June 2023 13:19 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need AUI cable > On Jun 28, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > DA, DC, DE connectors are a different size D shell than the DB, which is the > one commonly used for a 25 pin cable. There is also DD, though I've never seen one in the wild. DA is the shell for AUI connectors, DC is used for RS-422 (37 pins) I think. All of these come in regular density and high density variations. For most of them, regular is 2 rows and HD is 3 -- so a VGA connector is a DE-15, high density DE shell connector. But the DD regular density is 3 rows and the high density is 4 rows. Meanwhile, on AUI cables: the difficulty with plugging a transceiver into the Pro is that the Pro uses regular nuts, for a plug that secures by screws. That's non-standard, since the AUI spec calls for the "turret" and sliding latch type. So a standard AUI cable wouldn't be a real cure because you'd still have that mismatch. A simple solution is an adapter. I bought one from L-com: https://www.l-com.com/d-sub-aui-to-db15-adapter-male-female which says that it is "discontinued" but also shows "available: 11" so perhaps you can still get one. Failing that, an option would be to get a "socket saver" -- which is just a thin device with a connector at each end, intended to save the device connectors from wear -- and remove the transceiver-side fastener so the transceiver can plug in. That second option doesn't give you a secure attachment but it's likely good enough. paul
[cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2
It is called feedback - directly given but fair and polite. Delays, filtering, non-linearities, distortion, etc reduce its effectiveness. Martin PS I shall omit, as unnecessary, a discourse on the benefits of feedback -Original Message- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 12 June 2023 07:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Re: Greaseweazle part 2 Is it really necessary to be always so confrontational? It is unpleasant. On Sun, 11 June 2023, 10:44 pm Tony Duell via cctalk, wrote: > > Fundamentally, it seems to me that they're all the same basic > > hardware, timing intervals between flux transitions. > > > > So other than the soaftware, what's the difference? > > I could make a stupid comment and ask 'what's the difference between a > PDP8, PDP11, PERQ or HP9830?'. Apart from having finite memory, all > are (I believe) equivalent to a Turing machine. > > But more seriously when I started asking about writing images to > floppy disks, I asked what options were available and what I'd need. > Apart from the (IMHO) stupid suggestion of a 1990's PC compatible, the > only thing that was mentioned to me was the Greaseweazle. Nobody > pointed me at web sites giving comparisons between the various methods > and devices. > > -tony >
[cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape
The puches I have knowledge of do all 9 holes. Similarly, the blank tape stock (of my acquaintance) is unpunched. Martin -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 08 June 2023 17:34 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape The punch (on an ASR33 anyway) punches the feed (center) holes. All the rolls I have are completely unperforated. -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2023 12:10 PM To: Adrian Godwin via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape On 6/8/23 08:52, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > I think paper-slitters are pretty common. That is to say, if you go to > anyone manufacturing adding machine rolls they will have the > capability to make custom widths in rather small job lots. It's an > industry comparable with printing (and often combined, for when till > rolls with custom printing is desired). So it may be that although > paper tape is no longer available from computer stationary suppliers, > it can very easily be made in quite small MOQs. How does one, using modern equipment, both slit and perforate (feed holes) blank tape? Color me curious. --Chuck -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips
https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/embedded-controllers-and-super-io https://www.microchip.com/en-us/parametric-search.html/674 >From a QL 0.5 mm pitch QFP will be as good as it gets, and a lot of the parts >are NRFND, EoL, etc Interesting that these parts continue to exist. Ano option would be an FPGA, e.g. Artix on a 48 pin DIP module, https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Digilent/410-328-35 Martin -Original Message- From: Raymond Wiker via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 24 May 2023 13:01 To: cctalk Off-Topic Posts Cc: raymond.wi...@icloud.com Subject: [cctalk] Re: Super I/O chips The C256Foenix FMX uses a SuperIO chip: https://wiki.c256foenix.com/index.php?title=ICs > On 24 May 2023, at 12:18, emanuel stiebler via cctalk > wrote: > > Anybody out here, still in business using them? > Which ones are still easily available? > (I look for something which has 2 UARTs, FDC and IDE?) Thanks
[cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics
Led Driver ICs may merit consideration, e.g. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/led-driver-ics/7377975 for 20 mA. However, they usu have a not insignificant voltage drop (a few Volts). I have used lots of 10 mA versions for sensing switch / relay closures, typically with an ACPL-217 as sense element. And, these days, the catalogs are replete with LED drivers. The classic TLR solution, e.g. 1.25 V drop with an LM317, is written up by Horrowitz and Hill as Current Sources - Three terminal regulator as current source [3rd Edn $9.3.14 A, pp620] and many data sheets / ANs. The LED drivers seem to work just as well, 10+ years ago the LM317 was my standard design. Martin -Original Message- From: Tony Duell via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 02 May 2023 14:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tony Duell Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:34 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.47841/ > is close. > > Conceptually it's really easy. The main tricky part, certainly if you're > driving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current source. You > need something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load. The classic > answer was to use a fairly high voltage with a big series resistor so the > inductive impedance is much less than the resistance. A current regulator > would be a modern replacement. Also, for the case of the inductive load, > you'd need a shunt diode across the switch to absorb the voltage spike from > the inductor when the current is switched off, otherwise the switching > transistor will be quickly destroyed. The common version of the Model 33 Teletype with a current loop interface [1] has a bit of electronics inside. A little driver PCB with a couple of transistors on it, a power transformer for it and so on. The result is that although the interface is 20mA or 60mA current loop you are not driving the receive magnet directly and there are no high voltage spikes at the interface terminals. [1] This is by far the most common version of the Model 33 in the UK. If you do have to drive the solenoid directly then (as you're in the UK) look out for the RSGB [2] Teleprinter Handbook. Although, not surprisingly, this is biased towards amateur radio RTTY operation, it has a lot of information on mechanical teleprinters, how to drive them (with circuit diagrams) and so on. [2] Radio Society of Great Britain. Basically our equivalent of the ARRL. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images
Thank you for the suggestion http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui My usual first stop for program sources and images is http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/mixed_media/ and the more obvious http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/ Other repositories I'm acquaint with include: http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm https://www.pcjs.org/software/dec/pdp11/tapes/ http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/www/freewareFAQ.html https://www.pdp-11.nl/ https://ak6dn.github.io/PDP-11/ If there are other places I should look, my ears and eyes are open : esp for PDP-11 native assembler source code Martin -Original Message- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 21 March 2023 13:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images search for PDPGUI software. This is a good place to start to look for papertapes. Bill On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 7:39 AM Martin Bishop via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper > Tape Software programmes packages ? > > The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. > DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the > assemblers / linkers seem not to be. > > That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by > the 1970's software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer > purchases were uncommon. > > While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly > seeking are: > > - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~= ASXA] > > - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~= ASPA] > > - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs > > - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs > > - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs > > Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: > > - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing > > Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a > cupboard full of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. > > Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS > instructions to PAL-11A's repertoire. > Martin > > >
[cctalk] Re: LSI-11 Console-ODT
The detail of each monitor (11/03, 11/23+, KXT-11) differs, and the LSI-11/03 was an early design. However, some monitor source code is available and will provide definitive answers; see e.g. - http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1121/EK-KXTCA-HR-001_KXT11-CA_ROM_Listing_198406.pdf - http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/t11/ Also, some bootloaders (M9312 is a good exemplar) and ODT provide similar behaviour; see e.g. - https://gunkies.org/wiki/M9312_ROM - https://ak6dn.github.io/PDP-11/M9312/ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-line_Debugging_Tool - http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-XPTSA-A-D%20PDP-11%20Paper%20Tape%20Software%20Programming%20Handbook.pdf - http://www.vaxhaven.com/Paper_Tape_Archive esp DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB.ptap In each case it's a matter of reading the listings, source or binary code - or the documentation. Martin -Original Message- From: jos.fries--- via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 23 March 2023 14:10 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: jos.fr...@kpnmail.nl Subject: [cctalk] LSI-11 Console-ODT For my LSI-11 simulator I developed an as accurate as possible implementation of the Console-ODT functionality as described in the "LSI11 PDP11/03 Processor Handbook" and the "Microcomputer and Memories Handbook". As might be expected from these handbooks, the description of the ODT functionality is not a complete specification and consequently during the development several questions arose on the reaction of ODT on the user input, such as: - What is the reaction on commands like "R0/RS/4@"? Will the last opened location be opened or the contents of the last opened location? - What is the reaction on a RUBOUT at the prompt? - What will be the value of the opened location when e.g. three digits are entered and these three digits are then rubbed out and the location is closed? Will the value of the last opened location be unchanged or will it be zero? - An address and a GO command can be separated by a semicolon. What is the reaction if characters other than the "G" are typed after the semicolon? - Etc., etc... Is there someone in (the vicinity of) the Netherlands with a functioning LSI-11 who would allow me to try out these commands or could anyone point me to someone who could facilitate that? I developed a complete test script for all LSI-11 ODT commands and "all" relevant situations and ideally I would like to carry out this test script to get a complete specification of the Console-ODT functionality. Regards, Jos
[cctalk] Wanted PDP-11 Paper Tape Software Source Tape Images
Can anyone point me to the source paper tapes for the classic Paper Tape Software programmes packages ? The IOX, ODT, FPMP and loader/dumper source paper tapes [e.g. DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 & 2] are on bit savers, but those for the assemblers / linkers seem not to be. That the assembler / linker sources were distributed is attested by the 1970's software catalogs; from their evident rarity I infer purchases were uncommon. While any archive of -PA tapes is of interest, those I'm particularly seeking are: - DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PA1 to 12 PAL-11A (8k) (V007A) Source PTs [~= ASXA] - DEC-11-ASPA-PA1 to 11 PAL-11A (4k) (V002A) Source PTs [~= ASPA] - DEC-11-XIXLA-A-PA1 & 2 IOX LPT (V004A) Source PTs - DEC-11ULKSA-A-PA1 to 6 Link11S (V002A) Source PTs - also PAL11S sources, however they are not listed in the catalogs Equally, listings would be of value, e.g.: - DEC-11-ASPA-LA PAL-11A (V002A) (4k) Listing Electronic copies are all I require, although if someone has a cupboard full of untranscribed physical paper tapes I could oblige. Yours in anticipation of being able to, hopefully, add the EIS instructions to PAL-11A's repertoire. Martin
[cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer
A brief description of "built-in" FPGA logic analysers seems worthwhile, a valuable if non-trivial option. Most FPGA vendors provide IP to implement in vivo logic analysers organically in the FPGA fabric. Additionally, they provide a GUI to display / capture the data and to interactively configure qualifiers and triggering. The capabilities provided by AMD Xilinx, in Vivado, provide a good exemplar. https://docs.xilinx.com/r/en-US/ug936-vivado-tutorial-programming-debugging/Using-the-Vivado-Integrated-Logic-Analyzer https://www.xilinx.com/products/intellectual-property/ila.html https://www.xilinx.com/video/hardware/introduction-to-the-vivado-logic-analyzer.html Pods such as the Digilent digital discovery, based on a Spartan-6 FPGA, mentioned in my previous post typically use a USB host interface. The Vivado ILA typically uses the (JTAG) programming link. Consequently, the commercial LA pods and ILA technology are probably best viewed as cousins, interoperation may be possible but is not a given. The standard use case for an ILA is during FPGA code (VHDL or Verilog) development, where the focus is on the internal FPGA logic; e.g. providing an execution trace for a SIMD sequencer, for debug or verification. The use case Syste suggests is to connect a UUT to an FPGA (board) with the interest now in the external signals and logic; e.g. connecting an ADC EVB to an FPGA EVB to firstly inspect the interface signals and then exploit the data stream. Equally, as Syste suggests, a suitable FPGA EVB could simply be employed as a logic analyser. The capability of the ILA will of course be bounded by the available resources and one's deviousness: - JTAG interface : in general, neither slow not fast - fast memory for acquisition and buffering : on a low end FPGA / SOC - 1 to 2 Mbits of ~4 ns access time BRAM The "cost" of this "free" technology needs to be noted: - the FPGA EVB and JTAG interface will be relatively inexpensive - the FPGA vendors ILA IP and tools typically free - the XFU (exercise for User) elements are where the cost lies -- integrating UUT and FPGA EVB : modest effort / cost ? -- mastering Vivado, the ILA IP and block diagram configuration, VHDL/Verilog, timing constraints, ... In summary, a useful capability is available but without FPGA expertise exploitation would be difficult without a canned example Martin === From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 14 March 2023 14:40 I noticed the sigrok.org devices list mentions one that is open source hardware, that sounds a bit like what Sytse was talking about. paul From: Sytse van Slooten via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 14 March 2023 12:33 Another option that I haven't seen mentioned: use the built-in logic analyzers that the fpga tool chains come with - you'd have to wire up an fpga and sample the signals you need, but all the complexity of triggering, buffering and displaying would be done by the tool chain. -- Sytse From: Martin Bishop via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 14 March 2023 07:51 https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-digital-pattern-generator/ 32 ch at 200 MS/s and pleasantly inexpensive If I was buying, I would consider trying one
[cctalk] Re: Low cost logic analyzer
Paul Some options for consideration, not all meeting your specific requirement https://www.pctestinstruments.com/index.asp 34b wide, sync (200 MS/s) or async (500 MS/s) operation, fights with Win11 - driver upgrade required Had one for ~15 years, now has a few dead channels, merits consideration https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1104x-e-4ch-100mhz-1gsa-s-super-phosphor-oscilloscope/ https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sla1016-mixed-signal-option/ https://telonic.co.uk/product/siglent-sds1000x-e-16la/ 4 ch CRO + 16 ch digits : OK as a basic scope and logic capture device My standard CRO these past few years, rarely used above 4 + 8 configuration "100 MHz" means this is not a signal characterisation scope - definitely challenged above 50 MHz Note Based on bench experience I dont rate the equivalent Rigol boxes, e.g. DS1074, the GUI is challenged and the HCI processor very sluggish. The Siglent is much more responsive and rather less clunky to drive. https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-digital-pattern-generator/ 32 ch at 200 MS/s and pleasantly inexpensive If I was buying, I would consider trying one Martin From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 14 March 2023 01:13 Gents, I've been doing logic debugging (on a fairly primitive software defined radio I designed back in 1999) with an old Philips logic analyzer. It's not bad, certainly fast enough (I need 100 Msamples/s, it can do twice that) and it's more than wide enough (I need 32 channels). But its capture memory is microscopic so I struggle to see more than one or two transactions, and I need to see more than that. Some poking around shows various USB-connected logic analyzers for quite low prices, and a number of them seem to have suitable specs. I also ran across sigrok.org which seems to be an open source logic analysis framework that can drive a bunch of those devices. Nice given that too many of them only come with Windows software. I suspect there are others that have not too expensive logic analyzers and might be able to offer up suggestions or product reviews. paul
[cctalk] PDP-11 System Identification Register
Can't find very much information about the PDP-11 System Identification Register : RO at 7764 The occasional processor handbook says not implemented or the 11/xy reports num. Interogative : information sources, e.g. a tabulation of known values Martin
[cctalk] Re: How to print old files.
Ben I think you have the essence of a solution, using the Unix filter paradigm at user or driver level. Your desire to retain the original file format(s) is very sensible, it is always best to record "raw" data - for the greatest fidelity. The ISO 7-layer model provides a paradigm for data transport/storage formats and derived (presentation) formats. Good luck with the weather Martin -Original Message- From: ben [mailto:bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca] Sent: 01 January 2023 14:27 To: Martin Bishop ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. On 2023-01-01 6:53 a.m., Martin Bishop wrote: > Folks - wishing all a Good New Year > > Ben > The first ingredient must be a printer with a a suitable font table, in these > times of soft fonts that should be a given or tractable. > The second element is to convert to and use an MCS / multibyte character > representation - which can differentiate _ ^ and the desired arrow marks. > To do this you could: > - load the file into an editor, save it in MCS format, perform the > necessary substitutions (two global replaces) > - write a program / script to achieve the same effect, read char and > convert/translate to MCS octets. > Note. It is just possible you will find a font with the arrows in the upper > 128 glyphs of 8 bit "ascii", in which case you can skip the MCS conversion. > HtH > > Martin A filter of some kind is needed. With the rise of emulators for old machines,I can see text being written with terminal emulation of the orginal i/o devices, but that leaves printing or tranfering text files a problem. JOE could have a REAL - big iron 67, SAM runs windows 2000, TOM has a micro VAX. Every thing gets dumped to the cloud. One must keep data as files, none of this crappy mess that this modern 'buy a app' to print,or read. How does one share binary and paper tape/cards as files? Ben. PS: Back to inventing big iron 67. tag line: Cloud computing delayed to to bad weather, server is under 3 feet of snow.
[cctalk] Re: How to print old files.
Folks - wishing all a Good New Year Ben The first ingredient must be a printer with a a suitable font table, in these times of soft fonts that should be a given or tractable. The second element is to convert to and use an MCS / multibyte character representation - which can differentiate _ ^ and the desired arrow marks. To do this you could: - load the file into an editor, save it in MCS format, perform the necessary substitutions (two global replaces) - write a program / script to achieve the same effect, read char and convert/translate to MCS octets. Note. It is just possible you will find a font with the arrows in the upper 128 glyphs of 8 bit "ascii", in which case you can skip the MCS conversion. HtH Martin -Original Message- From: Christian Corti via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 01 January 2023 13:39 To: ClassicCmp Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, ben wrote: > How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ? > and ? 's > and not printing _ and ^ ? I'm scratching my head... you want to keep the question marks? But I guess you mean the back arrow and the up arrow. Christian
[cctalk] Re: unpleasant odor from VT100
Peter If you are still listening through the "on topic" noise - see below Martin >>I had something similar with a VT220. I didn't get around to investigating >>it before the flyback transformer failed :-( >>I can only suggest to run it for a short time with the cover off and the >>lights out while looking for any glows / >>discharges around the flyback >>transformer, the EHT cable, the EHT connector on the tube and the tube base >>connector. >>Regards, >>Peter Coghlan. >>Ps: Anyone got a flyback transformer for a VT220? I don't have a laid apart flyback transformer, but I could provide a VT220 of the YMMV kind. I'm in Dorset, UK, please reply off list. Best Regards Martin
[cctalk] Re: DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours?
Steve You will find some additional write up of the DLV11J (M9740) in LSI11SeytemsServiceManualAug81.pdf page no ~270 et seq see e.g. https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/LSI-11_Systems_Service_Manual_Aug81.pdf However, additional enlightenment is limited to the cab kit and MP part numbers, e.g. BC05C; which may yeild wire colours. As the M - E link is a ground strap to the differential receiver I would incline to using black wire (cf gnd line). I must have seen a genuine DLV11J cab kit about 40 years ago. However, I can recollect nothing but home brew substitutes / replacements thereafter; the color code being driven by the colors of stock 3-core cable. FWIW VanDamme audio cable makes nice 232 cables (very flexible), drain as ground : e.g. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/audio-cable/3658775 Finally, I shall relate a tale I was told in a bar. Once upon a time some a lady museum conservator was fussing over matching the paint color on Glen Douglas' tender https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/62469-glen-douglas-nbr-256-lner-9256-lner-2469-br-62469/ An unkind soul pointed out that the paint she wanted to match was from the 1959 refit, and that the old mens paint could easily have been a different hue. Personaly, I would fuss over using the correct gauge of wire / crimps / housing and just make a note of the color scheme. HtH; Martin -Original Message- From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 22 December 2022 03:16 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: ste...@malikoff.com Subject: [cctalk] DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours? Sorry this post isn't about whether something is regarded as classic or not. I am almost done putting together a little 4-card Qbus machine using a H9281-BA card frame. Eschewing a piece of plywood, the frame, power supply, fans, Heeltoe POR board are all mounted on a clear acrylic A4-sized office 'In Tray' I picked up at a recycling centre. Hence I've named it PERSPEX-11 :) So.. For a DLV11 EIA serial connection, I am about to wire up a fly lead cable to go from an M7940 SLU (no dash version) 40-pin header to a DB25P. After finding the pinout on page 178 in the 1980 Interfaces Handbook, on header J1 I know only need the usual basic RS232 setup: J - Received Data F - Transmitted Data B - Signal Ground M to E loopback I have a blank 40-pin header shell and a pile of DuPont leads of all colours ready to slot into their respective locations in the header. I could use any colours but I'd really like to use the original colours for the above wires. So, the only wire colour reference in the handbook is for a J1 and J2 header DRV11 pinout on page 275. Pin B is Black, and Transmit is Red but Pin J Receive is marked as Orange/Ground, for that device. Also M and E don't have their colours specified for the loopback wire. I've also looked at the Gunkies 'DEC asynchronous serial line pinout' page which has the pinout but it doesn't mention the original wire colours sadly. Could someone point me to what colours the M7940 cable should be? Thanks for any help, Steve.
[cctalk] CORRECTION: Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good Home
ft...@janefield.net (NOT .org) Martin -Original Message- From: Martin Bishop via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 03 December 2022 18:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk@classiccmp.org) Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: [cctalk] Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good Home Folks The following job lots are available as described but untested, stored in the attic / house since last use : UMMV Lot A : Matsui B 13" 1420T SIL UHF & Scart 230V (may be useful as a retro monitor esp as exhibit) [operable when last in service ~?] Lot B : Samsung CLP-350 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - very streaky when last used + CLP-R350A Imaging Unit + CLP-W350A Waste Bin + CLP-C350A Cyan toner + CLP-Y350A Yellow toner + CLP-M350A Magenta toner [consumables BNIB] [operable but streaky when last in service ~2015] Lot C : Samsung CLP680 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - motion fault when last used "A1-4112" + CLT-K506L Black toner [consumable BNIB] [defective "A1-4112" when last in service ~2022] While these are on the margins of classic, I'm happy to give the community first refusal on a free to a good home basis. Collection needs to be no later than next Thursday 8 December. If firm collection arrangements have not been made by CoP Sunday they will be offered on Gumtree ... If they are still here after Thursday, they may go wheee. Apologies for the short notice. Replies to ft...@janefield.net will be regarded as offers. Collection offers will be considered in the round, but the early bird is likely to have an advantage, accepted offers will be honoured until the agreed collection time passes, thereafter the acceptance will lapse and they will be back in play. Martin
[cctalk] Peripherals available in Dorset, England : Free to a Good Home
Folks The following job lots are available as described but untested, stored in the attic / house since last use : UMMV Lot A : Matsui B 13" 1420T SIL UHF & Scart 230V (may be useful as a retro monitor esp as exhibit) [operable when last in service ~?] Lot B : Samsung CLP-350 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - very streaky when last used + CLP-R350A Imaging Unit + CLP-W350A Waste Bin + CLP-C350A Cyan toner + CLP-Y350A Yellow toner + CLP-M350A Magenta toner [consumables BNIB] [operable but streaky when last in service ~2015] Lot C : Samsung CLP680 A4 Color Laser Enet 230V - contains consumables, level unknown - motion fault when last used "A1-4112" + CLT-K506L Black toner [consumable BNIB] [defective "A1-4112" when last in service ~2022] While these are on the margins of classic, I'm happy to give the community first refusal on a free to a good home basis. Collection needs to be no later than next Thursday 8 December. If firm collection arrangements have not been made by CoP Sunday they will be offered on Gumtree ... If they are still here after Thursday, they may go wheee. Apologies for the short notice. Replies to ft...@janefield.org will be regarded as offers. Collection offers will be considered in the round, but the early bird is likely to have an advantage, accepted offers will be honoured until the agreed collection time passes, thereafter the acceptance will lapse and they will be back in play. Martin
[cctalk] Re: Guidance on repairing Dec PDP 11 System
Have you run any (paper tape) diagnostics ? I genuflect to paper tape as XXDP and TU58 diagnostics are broadly a continuum from the paper tape days. The seminal 11/40 diagnostics are broadly applicable to all machines (noting that some addressing modes were implementation dependent ...) and that the architecture / diagnostics evolved with I/D MMUs U/S/K etc. Additionally, the early diagnostics have the merit of being instruction (group) / memory (test) specific. The 11/34 diagnostics are agregated into a few files / tapes e.g. CFKAAC0, CFKABD0 & CFKTHB0. Finally, an XXDP diagnostic pack is certain to contain RL02 controller and drive diagnostics; snag is finding the pack is XFU - the contents of available disk images is very variable. The following links may be useful: http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/mypdp/tu58.php https://github.com/AK6DN https://www.pcjs.org/software/dec/pdp11/tapes/diag/ http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database/200-pdp-11-diagnostics-introduction http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone/285-unibone-pdp-11-and-unibus The baseline concept is: TU58 emulator / console --> DL11W --> 11/34 memory; integrating the TU58 emulator and 11/34 may be a programming task i.e. use the console emulator L and D commands to load the diagnostics This could be evolved, if you have the hardware, boot roms, etc. Good Luck and Best Regards Martin -Original Message- From: Devin D via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 27 November 2022 17:48 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Devin D Subject: [cctalk] Guidance on repairing Dec PDP 11 System Greetings, Been a while since i have posted here. I have several PDP11 systems and peripherals. I picked the original lot of a system 34 and related tech in Miami FL a couple years back, and have since found several more pdp 11/34 machines, and a pdp 11/05, 11/85, and others. It has been a goal to get the original PDP 11/34 system up and running, however my job schedule kept getting in the way of my repair efforts, making it easy to loose track of where i was at with the repair progress. Thankfully i no longer work in a datacenter in a 10 hour overnight shift, so it should be much easier to devote my time to this repair. I am looking for advice to get the 11/34 system up and running. I have started to put together a site to document my progress, to stay on track with the repair effort. The system has 2 rl02 drives, and an attached 9 track tape drive. I had worked to repair a power supply issue at first, there was a problem with the main transformer, as well as one of the smaller voltage "bricks". Thankfully i have many systems and i was just able to swap in the needed working parts. So this is about as far as I got, I had a minimal config of the 11/34 machine running, with not much more than the cpu, and a serial card to talk to attached terminal. Power supply works, and i was able to toggle in programs from the front panel to output characters to the attached terminal. I believe the next logical step was to try and attach the rl02 controllers, and see if the disk packs still have working installs of RSX installed. I am not sure how to proceed with this though. I have mainly been following the advice of Paul Anderson, who has been a godsend in regard to advice and guidance with getting these old systems fixed up. I hope that if i keep a log of the repair effort on my site, it will allow me to pick up where i leave off with the repair much more easily. So that is the present condition of the machine. Good power supply, can toggle in simple programs to print to the attached terminal. Any advice on how to proceed is much appreciated. I Need to get an itemized list of what hardware and cards i have on hand, and post that here so its understood what i have. Thanks, Devin D.
[cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device?
IMHO, AI is bull Martin -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 13 November 2022 15:10 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device? > On Nov 12, 2022, at 1:08 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > I bet NN/AI would be helpful with data recovery - if we can model > certain common failure modes with those old drive heads we could infer > what the data should have been... NN maybe, I need to understand those better. I see they are now a building block for OCR. AI, not so clear. In my view, AI is a catch-all term for "software whose properties are unknown and probably unknowable". A computer, including one that executes AI softwware, is a math processing engine, so in principle its behavior is fully defined by its design and by the software in it. But when you do AI in which "learning" is part of the scheme, the resulting behavior is in fact unknown and undefined. For some applications that may be ok. OCR doesn't suffer materially from occasional random errors, since it has errors anyway from the nature of its input. But, for example, I shudder at the notion of AI in safety-critical applications (like autopilots for aircraft, or worse yet for cars). A safety critical application implemented in a manner that precludes the existence of a specification is a fundanmentally insane notion. paul
[cctalk] Re: Stuff available in England
Andrew / David, I'm in Dorset and could collect anytime from this evening (Fri 2 Sep 22) on through the w/e The 1" tape is of particular use to me (punches to feed), the DEC brochures I would also value, the other consumables I would redistribute for you (via ClassicCmp) Best Regards Martin -Original Message- From: David Gesswein via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 02 September 2022 15:16 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: David Gesswein Subject: [cctalk] Stuff available in England I got this message and in wrong country. They said ok to post to lists where local people might be able to pick up. I have 19 rolls of teletype asr 33 paper, and 24 rolls of tape white 1 inch, and various brochures for PDP 8 TSS, and PDP 11 Infos.and 1 box of 2000 sheets of paper fan fold. I am currently in Fareham Hampshire, but will soon be on my way to Germany in a few days. Please let me know. They would prefer one person takes all. andrew_ba...@hotmail.com Pictures here http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/supplies/
RE: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch
It is a UDR 700, my dyslexia and why I did not find your posts from 2020. A copy of the user manual would be very much apreciated, as would info on the unibus interface. However, I'm quite happy to interface to the back of the reader "I think". I shall eMail you privately details of an FTP site you could upload to. Martin -Original Message- From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850...@gmail.com] Sent: 12 July 2022 04:45 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Re: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 7:32 AM Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > > Google turns up very little specific information on either of these devices, > e.g. nil return from bit savers. > > The best leads I have are: > - The UTR 700 was badge engineered by Ferranti into FM1600B systems, one of > which fetched up at the Centre for Computer History, Cambridge, England; > perhaps with documentation. Also, as it was used in government systems some > maintenance documentation may have fetched up in the PRO, at Kew. Are you sure it's a UTR700 and not a UDR700? The latter is a 'UniDirectional Reader' running at 700 characters/second. I've seen them badge-engeered 'Solartron' too. I also have a Unibus interface for them. If it is a UDR700, I have the 'user' manual which includes full schematics, parts lists, alignment data, etc. I did offer this to bitsavers along with the manual for the HSR500 (bidirectional, 500 cps) but they weren't interested. Unfortunately the manual is nearly 140MBytes (my scanner software is very inefficient!) so too large to post or e-mail, but I can snail-mail a CD-ROM or memory stick with it on. -tony
RE: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch
The Facit 4060 appears to be from the 1968 - 1969 period The Trend UTR 700 from ~1980, based on IC date codes Martin -Original Message- From: ED SHARPE via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 11 July 2022 08:02 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: ED SHARPE Subject: Re: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch SOMEWHERE I HAVE THIS AMAZING FACIT PUNCH AN READER CATALOG BOOK THING,,, TONS OF UNITS BEAUTY PHOTOS WHAT IS THE DATE ON THE UNITS YOU SEEK INFO ON?? THANKS ED# In a message dated 7/10/2022 11:32:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: Google turns up very little specific information on either of these devices, e.g. nil return from bit savers. The best leads I have are:- The UTR 700 was badge engineered by Ferranti into FM1600B systems, one of which fetched up at the Centre for Computer History, Cambridge, England; perhaps with documentation. Also, as it was used in government systems some maintenance documentation may have fetched up in the PRO, at Kew.- Some Facit 4060 documentation, for the 4060, its 4061 & 4063 chums and the 5106 interface, look to be lodged in Box 52 of the ICL Collection at the Science Museum Library. The UTR 700 reader looks to be parallel interfaced, 10 single ended outputs from an interface card. The jokes start with manufacturer codes, rather than OEM part numbers on the 14 pin DIL ICs. However, a little scope work should identify tape out, data 0..7 and strobe lines. More interesting questions are lubrication and capacitor replacement - where a schematic would be a great assistance in deciding how to proceed. etc etc The Facit 4060 punch contains no more than the electro-mechanical mechanism : AC drive motor, solenoids and rotary position sensors. The 4070 documentation (on BitSavers) may read across, in terms of sensor characteristics, solenoid operating voltages and snubbing needs, or it may not. That reconstructing the schematic would be straightforward simply identifies how much is missing, and the difficulty of specifying it in the abscence of documentation. A classic tape punch interface from data latch and ready, through position sensing, solenoid drivers and done logic is required, together with auxiliary indications, e.g. tape out. etc etc Any information, wisdom, documentation or pointers to sources would be very much appreciated. To state the obvious, I was passed these devices by Philip Belben Martin
RE: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch
Errata : Trend UDR 700, not UTR -Original Message- From: Martin Bishop via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 11 July 2022 00:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk@classiccmp.org) Cc: Martin Bishop Subject: Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch Google turns up very little specific information on either of these devices, e.g. nil return from bit savers. The best leads I have are: - The UTR 700 was badge engineered by Ferranti into FM1600B systems, one of which fetched up at the Centre for Computer History, Cambridge, England; perhaps with documentation. Also, as it was used in government systems some maintenance documentation may have fetched up in the PRO, at Kew. - Some Facit 4060 documentation, for the 4060, its 4061 & 4063 chums and the 5106 interface, look to be lodged in Box 52 of the ICL Collection at the Science Museum Library. The UTR 700 reader looks to be parallel interfaced, 10 single ended outputs from an interface card. The jokes start with manufacturer codes, rather than OEM part numbers on the 14 pin DIL ICs. However, a little scope work should identify tape out, data 0..7 and strobe lines. More interesting questions are lubrication and capacitor replacement - where a schematic would be a great assistance in deciding how to proceed. etc etc The Facit 4060 punch contains no more than the electro-mechanical mechanism : AC drive motor, solenoids and rotary position sensors. The 4070 documentation (on BitSavers) may read across, in terms of sensor characteristics, solenoid operating voltages and snubbing needs, or it may not. That reconstructing the schematic would be straightforward simply identifies how much is missing, and the difficulty of specifying it in the abscence of documentation. A classic tape punch interface from data latch and ready, through position sensing, solenoid drivers and done logic is required, together with auxiliary indications, e.g. tape out. etc etc Any information, wisdom, documentation or pointers to sources would be very much appreciated. To state the obvious, I was passed these devices by Philip Belben Martin
Information on Trend UTR 700 Paper Tape Reader and Facit 4060 Punch
Google turns up very little specific information on either of these devices, e.g. nil return from bit savers. The best leads I have are: - The UTR 700 was badge engineered by Ferranti into FM1600B systems, one of which fetched up at the Centre for Computer History, Cambridge, England; perhaps with documentation. Also, as it was used in government systems some maintenance documentation may have fetched up in the PRO, at Kew. - Some Facit 4060 documentation, for the 4060, its 4061 & 4063 chums and the 5106 interface, look to be lodged in Box 52 of the ICL Collection at the Science Museum Library. The UTR 700 reader looks to be parallel interfaced, 10 single ended outputs from an interface card. The jokes start with manufacturer codes, rather than OEM part numbers on the 14 pin DIL ICs. However, a little scope work should identify tape out, data 0..7 and strobe lines. More interesting questions are lubrication and capacitor replacement - where a schematic would be a great assistance in deciding how to proceed. etc etc The Facit 4060 punch contains no more than the electro-mechanical mechanism : AC drive motor, solenoids and rotary position sensors. The 4070 documentation (on BitSavers) may read across, in terms of sensor characteristics, solenoid operating voltages and snubbing needs, or it may not. That reconstructing the schematic would be straightforward simply identifies how much is missing, and the difficulty of specifying it in the abscence of documentation. A classic tape punch interface from data latch and ready, through position sensing, solenoid drivers and done logic is required, together with auxiliary indications, e.g. tape out. etc etc Any information, wisdom, documentation or pointers to sources would be very much appreciated. To state the obvious, I was passed these devices by Philip Belben Martin
RE: Free stuff in Somerset, England
Philip A kind offer of DEC stuff to those of us in the UK May I express an interest in things Q-bus, LSI-11 and paper tape : other than any PT stuff, primarily backplanes, CPUs, memory and serial cards. I'm looking for components for Q-bus test rigs. Storage hardware and interfaces I shall pass on. It will most likely be late July before I could come your way as although down in Dorset, I have a pacemaker bedding in and as it followed an episode of syncope another 3 weeks before I can drive again. Indeed it would probably be prudent to suggest early August. Best Regards Martin -Original Message- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Belben via cctech Sent: 27 June 2022 19:07 To: cct...@classiccmp.org; declut...@axeside.co.uk Subject: Free stuff in Somerset, England Dear all, The cost of living crisis means that I can no longer afford to rent the space to store all my collection. I have therefore decided to give some stuff away to anyone who will come and collect it. Some stuff is in a storage container in Wells; the rest is in my basement between Shepton Mallet and Radstock. (I will give you the actual address and instructions to find the place when we've agreed an appointment for you to visit.) As noted above, these addresses are in Somerset, England. The following stuff is definitely available. Visitors will also be welcome to look around my basement and ask for stuff. I don't guarantee to let it go, but I want to (a) empty the storage container and (b) make enough space in the basement that I can get at anything I want to work on, and work on it. DEC PDP11 stuff: A complete 11/10 system - processor box (in a 3U rack mount box - this is, I am told, unusual, but it is original), one expansion box, RKO5. All mounted in a later (1980s era) half height rack. (I gave the original full-height rack to Toby) An 11/34 processor box. Don't know whether I have all the innards. (No idea where it came from!) The remains of my 11/44 system. I bought the complete system - processor, expansion box, two RL02 drives, RX02 drive, RA80. I started buying stuff to add to it - tape drive, a couple of CDC multi-platter hard drives. I then sold a basic system - processor, one RL02 drive, RX02 drive, all in one rack - but have all the rest (except the RA80, which I gave to Tony Duell). So there's a lot of stuff, but probably not all the boards (no RL11, for example). But if anyone wants to build an 11/34 system from the bits, they're welcome to try! A number of DEC hex-height boards and other Unibus stuff. Probably some spare boards for the 11/10. And a couple of racks from the 11/44 system. Other stuff: A DEC VT100 with no keyboard a motherboard from an Alphastation (Rod Smallwood has first call on this - it was supposed to be in one of the alphastations I gave him years ago.) A Teletype 43 A Perq 2T2 in bits. It has no working monitor, but I think I can find all the other bots. A Silicon Graphics Personal Iris, also with no monitor, but I have found its keyboard and mouse, and some additional boards that may belong to it. an IBM "portable" PC, i.e. an XT with built-in monitor in a luggable case. Lots of DEC manuals - I've not sorted this box. A Calcomp 1039 plotter. Five HP Series 80 machines (85, 86, 87) and a box of manuals and accessories. (You are not allowed to take any accessories unless you take at least one system unit!) The other stuff in my basement was mostly acquired from car boot sales and clearouts at work in the 1990s and early 2000s, so there's a lot of 1980s micros there. I have several Commodore PETs of various flavours; I'm probably going to keep my first ever 2001, and an 8296, but most of the stuff in between can go. Please let me know if you are interested, and I can post photos and/or more detailed descriptions. If I don't get any interest, the CDC drives and probably the Calcomp plotter, will have to go to the tip. Everything is offered as seen. Most of it doesn't work. You have been warned. Finally, I have set up an e-mail address for you to reply to if you are interested: declut...@axeside.co.uk. I hope to spot replies to the list too, but it will help if you copy them to that address as well. Many thanks, Philip.
RE: Looking for DEC XXDP TU58 images
http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database/202-pdp-11-diagnostics-database Has info on ZQRC binaries and .bic / .bin images - loading is of course XFU. The .bic image is (essentially) in absolute binary paper tape format, which may or may not help with loading. ZQRC has been extracted from the RL02 images which are up on BitSavers. Enjoy Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk Sent: 01 June 2022 16:25 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for DEC XXDP TU58 images I have recently acquired my first ever RQDX3 and put it in a BA23 cabled to an RD53. Unfortunately the self-test light stays on, but I thought I would see how it responds anyway. The only thing I have on the system that can boot is an RX33 floppy and emulated TU58. I have all of AK6DN's posted TU58 images, and found ZRCD, which is for the RC25, and the controller passed the interrupt test, but then of course gets errors since it is not an RC25. I need ZRQC. Does anybody know where I might get a TU58 image with it on? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
RE: The TRS-80 Journey Continues
I had dysfunctional switches on a heating system timer. The trade advice since replacements were unobtanium was open them up and clean the contacts with switch cleaner. The contacts were two "gold" plated pads bridged by pressing down conductive plastic with a textured finish : same design as the keyboards. The cotton buds lifted a lot of black "tarnish" (probably airborne contaminants) from the contacts. Went from a few working, a few intermittent and some totally dead, to all 16 working all the time. Have to see if they last another 12 years before failing. I infer that cleaning off the contaminants is 95% of the solution. I doubt the solvent used is especially critical. Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: 25 May 2022 16:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues On Wed, 25 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Another question for the masters here. > I just tried to revive my Model III. More than half the keys don't > work anymore. What is the conventional wisdom on cleaning these old > TRS-80 keyboards? Is compressed air usually enough? Can I spray the > switches with something like DeOxit safely? I expect when I go to > revive my Model I's they are likely to be in the same state. A really stupid suggestion: (cleaning the key mechanisms makes more sense): More than a quarter of a century ago, I revived several of my TRS-80's. None of the keys worked on one keyboard, and many of the keys didn't work on another. But, I noticed that repeatedly pressing an intermittent key made it work reliably, and repeatedly pressing a "dead" key got it working! I had a Rochester Dynatyper and a KGS-80, which were the two most common versions of a box of solenoids to place on top of a typewriter to convert it into a printer. Those came out when there were no cheap printers. There also existed a box, made by an outfit in Walnut Creek, to put UNDER a Selectric that pulled down on the keys, but I neever had one of those, and that was ONLY for Selectric, whereas the Rochester Dynatyper and the KGS-80 worked on ANYTHING with a normal keyboard, even a Merganthaler! I remember once at the West Coast Computer Faire, somebody showed a prototype of one that used fishing line and pulleys to work the carriage return of a MANUAL (non-electric) typewriter - every successful carriage return got a round of applause. I used the Dynatyper and the KGS-80 to "type" a few hundred pages. The TRS-80 keyboards came back to life! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred
RE: anyone ever connect a TU58 drive to a PDT-11/150 terminal port?
XXDP is based on DOS-11 file structures. Some documentary sources FoMT. TU58 examples of XXDP binaries, and much more, can be found at https://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/TU58/ the .txt files contain file structure and directory listings. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/dectape/tu58/EK-0TU58-UG-001_TU58_DECtape_II_Users_Guide_Oct78.pdf is a fair description of TU58 technology https://github.com/rust11/xxdp/tree/main XXDP RevEng and restored sources http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/dos-batch/ I believe documents the DOS-11 file system underlying XXDP; e.g. it explains how dates are encoded. Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lee Gleason via cctalk Sent: 18 May 2022 16:14 To: Chris Zach ; cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: anyone ever connect a TU58 drive to a PDT-11/150 terminal port? Lessee...I know more about life on Mars than I do RT11, but I know from trying it myself, while building some XXDP volumes, that a simple DIR command can't read an XXDP volume. Maybe there's an equivalent of FLX (RSX) or Exchange (VMS) on RT11? Either way, you can test your ability to read an XXDP TU58 on the PDT by doing a DUMP/TERMINAL DD0: - if it reads, it will dump the blocks out to your screen. It will be interesting to see if a real TU58 works as well on a PDT as an emulator does. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.glea...@comcast.net On 5/18/2022 3:47 AM, Chris Zach wrote: > Very nice to know! I am repairing my tu58 bit by bit and will try it > out on my 11/150. Good to know about the serial limit, I'll jumper for > 2400 baud to test. > > Question. The only tape I have for testing is an xxdp. Are they in > rt11 format that I can test with a simple directory command? > > Chris > > On May 17, 2022 11:31:55 PM GMT+02:00, Lee Gleason via cctalk > wrote: > > On 4/15/2022 2:48 PM, Lee Gleason wrote: > > I've been tinkering with a PDT-11/150 lately. It's a little > inconvenient to work on, since it doesn't have a simple way to > transfer files back and forth (KRTMIN doesn't work when > transferring files to the box, just from the box, for some > reason I haven't been able to puzzle out, and pasting text > into a KED screen or a PIP command usually overflows my > terminal emulator). It occurred to me that the first > application terminal line on the 150 is at 176500,300, the > same as the default for a TU58's DL11. It's a very DL11 like > interface, register wise. I'm wondering, if I could hook up a > TU58 emulator and use it to move data back and forth to the > 150. Has anyone had occasion to try this? Any advice on how > to get it to go would be appreciated, since I know very > little about RT11. > -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants > lee.glea...@comcast.net > > > OK, replying to my own post here, on the off chance that there are any > other PDT-11 hobbyists out there. I gave this a try and it works pretty well. > The DD driver on the PDT-11/150 will talk to a TU58 emulator on Terminal 1 > just fine (presumably, it would talk to a real TU58 as well). It only works > at 2400 baud, but, it's still pretty useful for moving software on and off > the box. With the "big" TU58 patch to the DD driver, it's also possible to > store lots of RT11 software or data (65000 or so blocks worth) on a virtual > TU58 and load from there, rather than switching floppies. > Seehttps://rsx11.blogspot.com/2022/05/pdt-11150-and-tu58.html for the long > boring story about figuring this out. > > == > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.glea...@comcast.net > > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
RE: Not just slashed zeroes/ohs
Not to forget the practice, found in places where clock(s) may be set to Zulu (as in UTC timezone), of indicating the datum by a Z with a vertical bar / slash through it - often below the 12 and about 30% of the size of the clock face, or centred and somewhat larger. Horizontal and no bar options may well also be found in the wild; which may have spread into the positioning, network management and timing communities ? Martin -Original Message- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Craig Ruff via cctech Sent: 27 April 2022 18:51 To: cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: Not just slashed zeroes/ohs Having gone through many mathematics courses it was common to also place a slash on the letter Z to distinguish it from the numeral 2. Also for persons from Europe where they slashed the numeral 7 to distinguish it from a numeral 1 that commonly had an initial small upward stroke at the top when hand written.
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader
An update on my fight with the PPR, also one of its cousins. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-cnc-machine-related-electronics/430874-cnc-engineering.html#post2505622 covers my RFI to the CNC community and provides a few pictures of a 19" rack reader integrated with a Zynq; load binary tape, run program on FPGA PDP-11. That was the cousin, which provided an education on Fanuc PTRs. The PPR's PTR turns out to have had a blown illuminator: the series (active) diode was o/c and the PNP which effects the constant current source had the wrong pin out - the Fanuc footprint is not industry standard. The PNP had obviously been replaced by hands unknown, the flux had not been cleaned off. My only, real, interest in the pathology is will it happen again. With that fixed: PPR in remote mode, load tape, send DC1, tape whizzes through, octets crawl out (4800 baud). My unanswered questions are now mostly those associated with the 19" rack reader. Specifically, what input A13 does and the semantics of the front panel switch positions. Martin
RE: Advice on Desoldering an IC
If the Klein cutters are too bulky, you may care to investigate. Lindstrom 7191 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cutters/3320341 are the usu first resort small cutters - they should be fine enough for 0.1" pitch ICs. A finer pair are Bondline 1570 https://www.bondline.co.uk/product/hand-tools-and-tweezers/esd-cutters/c1570 definitely fine enough for 0.1" IC legs (just put them to an IC), and probably 50 mil packages. And for a compact pair of 45 deg pin croppers Bondline C1582 https://www.bondline.co.uk/product/hand-tools-and-tweezers/esd-cutters/c1582 HtH; BR Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: 15 April 2022 22:33 To: 'Chris Zach' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Advice on Desoldering an IC I do have some diagonal cutters, but although small they seem to be still too bulky to reach the pins. I will have to try to find some finer ones. These seem to look OK: https://uk.farnell.com/klein-tools/d275-5/wire-cutter-diagonal-127mm/dp/2839543 Also, I have seen the recommendations regarding a Hakko 808. It looks like the modern successor is the FR301 https://www.hakko.co.uk/product/fr-301-portable-desoldering-gun/. I think what may be better about this is the wider choice of nozzles. Regards Rob From: Chris Zach Sent: 15 April 2022 18:51 To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Rob Jarratt via cctalk Subject: Re: Advice on Desoldering an IC Cut the pins with a very sharp set of dykes then remove them one at a time. Then use flux and detailer braid to remove the solder On April 15, 2022 1:49:33 PM EDT, Rob Jarratt via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: I am trying to remove an IC from my PDP 11/24 CPU, a DS8641. I am really struggling to desolder it. I am using the technique of applying fresh solder and then removing it. But after multiple cycles of this I think I am starting to damage the PCB. I am using a fairly cheap desoldering station (this one https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD 01384?st=duratool%20desoldering). Its spec in terms of vacuum pressure is equivalent to that of the professional Hakko ones though. I am also trying a hand desoldering pump. None of these are able to clear many of the holes of solder, although some are doing better than others. Nevertheless, the IC remains stubbornly unmoving. Are there any tips for removing ICs? Thanks Rob -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
RE: Advice on Desoldering an IC
Rob I would imagine that an 11/24 CPU is at least a 4 layer board, with power planes and hopefully thermal reliefs at pins connected to a plane. The pins you will be having difficulty with are most likely on the Gnd or Vcc plane. I often leave those pins for last, once in the groove. And, I'm not above cutting off the IC body or eliminating the connector body. To state the obvious the key to desoldering is to get the heat in; now, the solder is what gets it there. So with a desoldering tool and a suitable ID bit, load it with SnPb solder, put it to the pin and don't start sucking until the via's barrel is clean at completion (adjust for board, pin, tool and Jovian phase). Additionally, apply some circular motion to the tool / pin in the final stage of heating and during evaculation to preclude sticky spots. If the board is really tarnished some flux on the pin(s) may be necessary to initiate heat conduction, BGA gel flux would be my pick for this requirement. If the board really has it in for you a pre-heater may help, although I have yet require to use one for TH desoldering and the pins falling onto the quartz elements might be "unhelpful". I always use one of SMD PCB assembly with hot air. See e.g. https://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/aoyue-853a-pro-quartz-infrared-heater-220v. Alternatively, you could use hot air to cook the board up; I always heat all the copper in the board rather than the joint - once the board is toasty a little more heat will flow the solder or if you get distracted it may just happen ... This aproach works well for SMD assy. HtH; BR Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: 15 April 2022 18:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Advice on Desoldering an IC I am trying to remove an IC from my PDP 11/24 CPU, a DS8641. I am really struggling to desolder it. I am using the technique of applying fresh solder and then removing it. But after multiple cycles of this I think I am starting to damage the PCB. I am using a fairly cheap desoldering station (this one https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD 01384?st=duratool%20desoldering). Its spec in terms of vacuum pressure is equivalent to that of the professional Hakko ones though. I am also trying a hand desoldering pump. None of these are able to clear many of the holes of solder, although some are doing better than others. Nevertheless, the IC remains stubbornly unmoving. Are there any tips for removing ICs? Thanks Rob
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Hi Bill Back with a suplementary query. Do you have a pin out for the Fanuc 50 way ribbon cable which goes to the BTR. As you may have read the reader electronics in my PPR look to be dead. However, probing signals in the PPR box does not look trivial : poor access, no schematics and the comparators are not evident. Consequently, in the first instance, I'm following in your footsteps with an A13B-0070-B001; the interface card is a A20B-0007-0750-07B. Similar, but different to your reel to reel unit. With four quad comparators on an exposed board it looks ideal for investigation and idc (hopefully) house training - the question is can I skip the reverse engineering phase. Thereafter, back to the PPR. If the DosTek was not 5 hours behind and limitless import hassle in prospect, I would consider using it as a test fixture. Best Regards Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: 10 April 2022 00:14 To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working I have a dostek 440a for sale and notes about my fanuc tape unit here. https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/index.cfm On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 6:51 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. > > https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A > > Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I > found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. > > -Eric > > > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in > > translation and limited in scope. > > > > Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the > > serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies > > (based on a > QL). > > In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due > > to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured > > as no > check). > > The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in > response > > to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 > > - > D-9 > > transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted > appropriately > > and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long > > test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, > > repeatably after > ~49" > > which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC > > termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to > > impress the > reader > > - nothing changes. > > > > Specific queries: > > - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax > > data out of the reader > > - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available > > as pdf > > - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most > > importantly the main board (with its 8031) > > - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault > > diagnosis > > - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute > > binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) > > > > Martin > > >
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Eric Thanks for the link and insight. $11, $12, $13, $14 $1B, $93 - preface with $1B (esc) and all should be well. Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 20:23 To: Martin Bishop Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working Yep! You can absolutely punch straight binary to tape. There is an escape, the details escape me but are enshrined in my silly network attached paper tape program: https://github.com/emooreatx/FANUC-PPR -Eric << snip >>
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Chuck My error, you said 20 mA current loop, I bowdlerised it as parallel port. I have a punch with a parallel interface ... I can't recollect ever using a current loop interface on equipment, although I have met many in old documents. 4 .. 20 mA current loops reporting e.g. pressure actuated potentiometers are however old friends, if that is the correct term. As you observe current loop has good noise immunity. Martin -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:ccl...@sydex.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 20:08 To: Martin Bishop Cc: CCtalk Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working On 4/10/22 11:08, Martin Bishop wrote: > Chuck > > Thank you for the parallel port suggestion. I followed it up by opening the > D-25 and reviewing the wiring. It looks very RS232 to me, the pin out I > found is detailed in my 10 1314A Apr 22. That the punch and reader respond > to RS232 input I think settles the issue - I was briefly optimistic ... No, not parallel port, but 20 ma current loop. Used extensively in teletype/industrial work. Still serial, but suited to long-haul or noisy environments. The original IBM PC serial card could be configured for CL. The advantage is that it's not voltage-sensitive per se, but rather to the current flowing through the loop. On long hauls, one could raise the voltage until the proper current level was obtained. RS232C, on the other hand is strictly voltage-sensitive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_loop for details. But it sounds as if you have a bog-standard RS232C setup. Very old teletype setups used, I believe 60 ma. CL. --Chuck
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Chuck Thank you for the parallel port suggestion. I followed it up by opening the D-25 and reviewing the wiring. It looks very RS232 to me, the pin out I found is detailed in my 10 1314A Apr 22. That the punch and reader respond to RS232 input I think settles the issue - I was briefly optimistic ... Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: 10 April 2022 03:29 To: Martin Bishop via cctalk Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working On 4/9/22 17:26, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: > Bill > > Thanks for the offer of the DosTek 440a. However, my problem is getting the > 232 output to wiggle a CRO not to input and log the serial data. > > Fanuc manuals 1788.pdf, on VintageComputer.net, looks as though it contains > more detail than the PPR and System P manuals and may reward study. > Are you certain that the interface isn't wired for current loop? A lot of these CNC (I'm assuming that this Fanuc unit falls in that category) used the CL interface. Connector's the D-25. --Chuck
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Eric Thanks for confirmation the reader should “just work”. Unfortunately it does not ... One other specific : can the PPR punch absolute binary tapes, e.g. for a PDP-11, one potential use. Or, is it limited to “alpha numeric” ASCII. Using the native controller, I can’t see any way of geting it to punch e.g. DC1 .. DC4, they control the logic and are absorbed prior to the punch. Is there an escape sequence ? The reader does not want to cal: - the procedure is in the PPR Operators manual [B-54584E/01 p 47-48] - the tape is a loop of U* with even parity, taken from ano Fanuc manual [see my 10 1314A Apr 21] - the tape feeds, but none of the indications illuminate : 50/60 Hz, sprocket signal, channel signal - beyond my doing it incorrectly (tried a few times), I would wonder if either lamp or optos are kaput Consequently, signal tracing to / from the reader looks the way to go, and the place to start is probably the sprocket opto. A job for another "weekend", preferably with the circuits to hand - although I have seen no sign of any. Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 17:23 To: Martin Bishop Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working Yep! That is my experience in remote mode, both driven via the panel or remotely. You know more than I do, I hope you get it figured out soon! The PPR is super fun to have on the bench if you have tapes to read or especially if you have a computer that works with paper tape. -Eric On Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 4:44 AM Martin Bishop wrote: Hi Eric I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job: - Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side, - BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side, - CRO on p2 & p3 This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at logical zero (-7.5 V) I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ? Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 02:01 To: Martin Bishop Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one? RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/ I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2 bartered away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one needing 220V power. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop wrote: Eric Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers. With all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at 4800 8N1; unchanged functionality. However, still, nothing is emitted from the 232 for consumption by Putty. Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to those in the PPR’s own manual. Nonetheless useful as context, and for perusal in slow time. Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09 To: Martin Bishop ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper settings, and instructions on local vs remote modes. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore wrote: Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote: A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation and limited in scope. Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL). In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check). The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 - D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to impress the reade
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Bill Your link to https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/FanucManuals1788.pdf "Fanuc System 6T-Model B" is very helpful. The reader fitted to the PPR is a A860-0066-T001. The readers referenced in the manual are close relatives. Importantly, the manual provides significantly more detail on calibration and lubrication that the PPR manual. Specifically: - p 2 Block diagram - p 7 Block diagram - P 11 .. 20 Tape reader preventative maintenance (i.e. oiling) - p 62 .. 63 Tape reader fault finding; esp node 13 -- use black tape - p 81 .. 83 tape reader photo amplifier adjustment, tape pattern specification, observations and objectives (not in PPR manual - although not all applicable ?) - p84 System connection diagram - p 368 .. 369 Tape codes (ISO & EIA) - useful crib - p 384 .. 385 Tape Reader lubricant specifications None of the foregoing has resolved my problem. However, I now know that you have to adjust for tape color p 82 note 2. And, page 81 provides the cookery for a "zig zag" tape [referenced by pages 47 & 48 of the PPR operators manual]. Next step, make loop tapes (black and yellow) and attempt photo-amplifier adjustment. Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: 10 April 2022 00:14 To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working I have a dostek 440a for sale and notes about my fanuc tape unit here. https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/index.cfm On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 6:51 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. > > https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A > > Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I > found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. > > -Eric > > > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in > > translation and limited in scope. > > > > Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the > > serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies > > (based on a > QL). > > In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due > > to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured > > as no > check). > > The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in > response > > to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 > > - > D-9 > > transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted > appropriately > > and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long > > test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, > > repeatably after > ~49" > > which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC > > termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to > > impress the > reader > > - nothing changes. > > > > Specific queries: > > - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax > > data out of the reader > > - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available > > as pdf > > - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most > > importantly the main board (with its 8031) > > - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault > > diagnosis > > - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute > > binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) > > > > Martin > > >
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Fred
You have a good measure of my problem.
As for my expertise: its 40 years since I left schoool with a PhD in Signal
Processing, I'm currently designing with Xilinx Zynqs, and if the RS232 driver
has to be pulled there is a Pace SX-80 on the bench in the workshop.
I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:
- Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side (first outing in 20+ years),
- BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side,
- CRO on p2 & p3
The CRO can see codes (at 4800 baud) going to the unit, but nothing coming out
- stuck at logical zero (-7.5 V). Putty talks to the PPR - characters to
punch, Xon starts reader, etc. Putty etc also talks to other hardware, i.e.
its been tested.
Sometimes devices, at either end of the cable, have unexpected
requirements,that are not usual parts of the RS232 "standard". That,
essentially is my question, before I start chasing a hardware / driver issue.
Although, to date, I have drawn a blank.
Knitting, first the D25 with pins on the PPR's OEM cable (pin : C/I/O(wrt PPR)
: color : presumed function):
1 - C - black - chassis ground
2 - I - yellow - TXD fr Pc to PPR (evidenced by lites / CRO)
3 - O - brown - RXD fr PPR to PC (evidenced by lites / -7v5 voltage)
4 - I - green - RTS
5 - O - yellow - CTS
6 - O - gray - DSR
7 - C - orange - signal gnd
8 - I - brown - DCD
20 - I - jumper (grey) to pin 8 - DTR
Note no other pins, esp 9 13 18 the D-25 current loop pins; therefore unlikely
to be either current loop serial or 8 bit parallel (and the volts are not TTL).
D-25 to D-9 knitting (D25(PPR) : Direction : D9(Pc/FTDI 232) : function):
7 -- 5 common gnd
2 <- 3 TxD from Pc to PPR
3 -> 2 RxD from PPR to Pc
4 <- 7 RTS from Pc to PPR
5 -> 8 CTS from PPR to Pc
6 -> 6 & 1 DSR from PPR to Pc (DSR & DCD)
8 & 20 <- 4 DCD & DTR from Pc (DTR) to PPR (DCD & DTR)
Note I'm well aware that RTS to RTS etc is not normative, however the volts
tell another story; presume I have a pair of DTEs / DCEs
Equally the classic quick bodge terminal (D-25) end jumpers don't deliver a
result:
4-5 RTS-CTS
6-8-20 DSR-DTR-DCD
Thanks for your interest in my problem, and motivating me to open / inspect the
D-25.
Martin
-Original Message-
From: Fred Cisin [mailto:ci...@xenosoft.com]
Sent: 10 April 2022 03:06
To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Martin Bishop
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite
working
> to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 -
> D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted
> appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites.
I don't know anything about that specific setup, nor anaything aabout your
personal expertise.
When you say "nothing on 232", is thatr per looking at the wires of the cable?
Or just not getting anything displayed by Putty?
When you say "knitted appropriately", since that is NOT referring to "as per
the manual" (or is it?), have you checked all inputs and outputs?
Sometimes devices, at either end of the cable, have unexpected
requirements,that are not usual parts of the RS232 "standard".
For example, I was once asked by the "Radio Shack Computer Center" to help them
connect a Votrax to a Model 2 (for a blind customer). They had tried all of
the obvious commodity "null modems", etc. I used a "matrix switch", but also
had to solder one additional jumper for a pin that is not "normally" used for
such things, and no obvious reason for being used.
I no longer remember which pin; it was possibly #10 or #12, but it might just
have been #22 ("ring indicator"). To avoid the bureaucratic administrative
nonsense needed for them to pay me, I accepted a gift of a Model 2 Technical
Reference manual as compensation.
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Hi Eric I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job: - Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side, - BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side, - CRO on p2 & p3 This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at logical zero (-7.5 V) I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ? Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 02:01 To: Martin Bishop Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one? RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/ I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2 bartered away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one needing 220V power. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop mailto:mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com>> wrote: Eric Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers. With all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at 4800 8N1; unchanged functionality. However, still, nothing is emitted from the 232 for consumption by Putty. Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to those in the PPR’s own manual. Nonetheless useful as context, and for perusal in slow time. Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com<mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com>] Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09 To: Martin Bishop mailto:mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com>>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper settings, and instructions on local vs remote modes. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation and limited in scope. Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL). In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check). The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 - D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader - nothing changes. Specific queries: - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax data out of the reader - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available as pdf - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most importantly the main board (with its 8031) - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault diagnosis - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) Martin
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Bill Thanks for the offer of the DosTek 440a. However, my problem is getting the 232 output to wiggle a CRO not to input and log the serial data. Fanuc manuals 1788.pdf, on VintageComputer.net, looks as though it contains more detail than the PPR and System P manuals and may reward study. Martin -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: 10 April 2022 00:14 To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working I have a dostek 440a for sale and notes about my fanuc tape unit here. https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/index.cfm On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 6:51 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. > > https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A > > Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I > found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. > > -Eric > > > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in > > translation and limited in scope. > > > > Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the > > serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies > > (based on a > QL). > > In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due > > to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured > > as no > check). > > The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in > response > > to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 > > - > D-9 > > transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted > appropriately > > and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long > > test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, > > repeatably after > ~49" > > which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC > > termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to > > impress the > reader > > - nothing changes. > > > > Specific queries: > > - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax > > data out of the reader > > - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available > > as pdf > > - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most > > importantly the main board (with its 8031) > > - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault > > diagnosis > > - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute > > binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) > > > > Martin > > >
RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
Eric Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers. With all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at 4800 8N1; unchanged functionality. However, still, nothing is emitted from the 232 for consumption by Putty. Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to those in the PPR’s own manual. Nonetheless useful as context, and for perusal in slow time. Martin From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09 To: Martin Bishop ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper settings, and instructions on local vs remote modes. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans. https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search. -Eric On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation and limited in scope. Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL). In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check). The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 - D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader - nothing changes. Specific queries: - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax data out of the reader - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available as pdf - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most importantly the main board (with its 8031) - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault diagnosis - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) Martin
Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working
A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation and limited in scope. Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port. In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL). In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check). The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel keys. However, nothing is emitted onto 232. The D25 - D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites. Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close to 512 octets. Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader - nothing changes. Specific queries: - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax data out of the reader - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available as pdf - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most importantly the main board (with its 8031) - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault diagnosis - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute binary tapes, their target market was G code (text) Martin
