Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
So now we've moved from CCIEs to lawyers. hmm Jonathan Hays wrote: > Good point. However, you guys have only discussed the two extremes: no > experience and > the 30-years experience burnout. I'd rather hire a lawyer with 5-10 years > experience who > still has enthusiasm. Sometimes the new kid on the block does a great job > and sometimes > she or he often screws up quite a bit before learning the ropes. > > But these are generalizations. The particular individual is what counts. > > Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: > > > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better > job > > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by the > > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the > > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb > job. > > Did I mention I used to head up an IT division at a major Canadian law > firm? > > (-: > > > > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the > > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > > Chuck Larrieu > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:48 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > > > > hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about > > > what the one day lab would end up doing? ;-> > > > > > > may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate > broker's > > > exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of > > > takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the > > > guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years > > > experience? > > > How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or > > > another? Want that > > > lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try > > > through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he? > > > > > > and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker > > > examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about > > > credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to > > > come live in California? > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > > Brad Ellis > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! > > > I know a > > > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that > the > > > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I > > > consider the CCIE > > > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > > > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > > > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a > fundamental > > > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. > I > > > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > > > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > > > someone with minimal competence. > > > > > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent > in > > > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > > > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > > > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general > > > public would > > > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > > > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > > > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them > minimally > > > competent to be an insult. > > > > > > -Brad Ellis > > > CCIE#5796 > > > > > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PRO
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Good point. However, you guys have only discussed the two extremes: no experience and the 30-years experience burnout. I'd rather hire a lawyer with 5-10 years experience who still has enthusiasm. Sometimes the new kid on the block does a great job and sometimes she or he often screws up quite a bit before learning the ropes. But these are generalizations. The particular individual is what counts. Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better job > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by the > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb job. > Did I mention I used to head up an IT division at a major Canadian law firm? > (-: > > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Chuck Larrieu > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:48 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about > > what the one day lab would end up doing? ;-> > > > > may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate broker's > > exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of > > takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the > > guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years > > experience? > > How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or > > another? Want that > > lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try > > through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he? > > > > and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker > > examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about > > credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to > > come live in California? > > > > Chuck > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Brad Ellis > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! > > I know a > > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the > > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I > > consider the CCIE > > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental > > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I > > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > > someone with minimal competence. > > > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in > > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general > > public would > > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally > > competent to be an insult. > > > > -Brad Ellis > > CCIE#5796 > > > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and > > deserving of every > > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets > > from > > > one interface
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Yeah - Original Message - From: "Leigh Anne Chisholm" To: Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:59 PM Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better job > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by the > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb job. > Did I mention I used to head up an IT division at a major Canadian law firm? > (-: > > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Chuck Larrieu > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:48 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about > > what the one day lab would end up doing? ;-> > > > > may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate broker's > > exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of > > takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the > > guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years > > experience? > > How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or > > another? Want that > > lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try > > through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he? > > > > and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker > > examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about > > credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to > > come live in California? > > > > Chuck > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Brad Ellis > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! > > I know a > > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the > > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I > > consider the CCIE > > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental > > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I > > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > > someone with minimal competence. > > > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in > > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general > > public would > > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally > > competent to be an insult. > > > > -Brad Ellis > > CCIE#5796 > > > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and > > deserving of every > > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets > > from > > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab > > test. > > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about > > networking.
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
The reality is no one knows everything. Why single out the CCIE in an article unless he doesn't know what he's talking about? Especially, since the CCIE is one of the hardest certs to obtain. Ask anyone who has taken the lab. His advice to go online to research a problem is pure stupidity. How can you go online to find out what's wrong if you don't know how to identify what's wrong? Identify a specific vendor to research? If a businessman doesn't have a service contract with the venfor for the product he's probably not a very smart businessman. There's a pretty good chance that if someone is from a recognized program from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is going to be hired over someone from the University of BFE if that gpas are the same. Whether that job can be kept is another story. You are right, certs are only a part of the equation. I wasted way too much time and bandwidth on this e-mail. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Robert Padjen Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 6:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] Sorry to be adding to the thread given the large amount of verbiage, but... Guys (gals inferred). Seriously, the certifications are only a validation of one's abilities to pass a test on the specific materials on that certification's exams. Yes, this chap may have gone too far on the CCIE per se, but the reality is that one does not need to know everything to get through the lab. His point, I hope, is that hiring on certifications is about as valuable as hiring on degrees based on the school. Is Yale better than Harvard or Stanford? Maybe, but each has dismissed their share of idiots and geniuses. As such, it would be wrong to make a jump of logic that all CCIEs are valuable to all organizations, just as someone saying an uncertified person is worthless. My only request is that we take the position to heart with a grain of salt, and remember that the certification(s) only represent a part of the person. I, for one, do not introduce myself based on the letters representing my certifications - I introduce me and my abilities, and I would hope that the rest of this group would too. Thanks. --- adam lee wrote: > I think the author was either being sarcastic or is > just uninformed of what > technology really is. I feel bad that I even wasted > this much bandwidth > discussing it. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Don Claybrook > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small > Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give > tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small > business. He's talking > about > how certifications aren't as important as one might > think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too > much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify > ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next > President. Terms like > CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only > successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I > thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want > to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence > level of CCIE) [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Robert Padjen __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19166&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Sorry to be adding to the thread given the large amount of verbiage, but... Guys (gals inferred). Seriously, the certifications are only a validation of one's abilities to pass a test on the specific materials on that certification's exams. Yes, this chap may have gone too far on the CCIE per se, but the reality is that one does not need to know everything to get through the lab. His point, I hope, is that hiring on certifications is about as valuable as hiring on degrees based on the school. Is Yale better than Harvard or Stanford? Maybe, but each has dismissed their share of idiots and geniuses. As such, it would be wrong to make a jump of logic that all CCIEs are valuable to all organizations, just as someone saying an uncertified person is worthless. My only request is that we take the position to heart with a grain of salt, and remember that the certification(s) only represent a part of the person. I, for one, do not introduce myself based on the letters representing my certifications - I introduce me and my abilities, and I would hope that the rest of this group would too. Thanks. --- adam lee wrote: > I think the author was either being sarcastic or is > just uninformed of what > technology really is. I feel bad that I even wasted > this much bandwidth > discussing it. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Don Claybrook > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small > Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give > tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small > business. He's talking > about > how certifications aren't as important as one might > think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too > much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify > ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next > President. Terms like > CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only > successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I > thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want > to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence > level of CCIE) [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Robert Padjen __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19147&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Sorry, I haven't seen the movie Rainmaker. As for your experience in the Air National Guard--you know that experience doesn't mean that you never make bad judgements. I can think of several extremely seasoned pilots I know that have made really dumb judgement calls just because they've pushed the envelope before and not had any consequences. And sometimes, it's not even having pushed the envelope before that leads to stupid mistakes. One pilot I knew began flying during I believe it was the Korean war. He moved onto airlines and racked up several thousands of hours flying the friendly skies. He was also a seasoned aerobatic pilot having won several U.S. aerobatic championships and helped lead the US team to win a World Aerobatic Championship title. He and his wife wanted to sell their land in southern California. They hired a photographer to take pictures of their property. When the photographer didn't show up, this pilot grabbed his wife's biplane and in a tempermental state took pictures of his own property. Needless to say, distances looking through the lens of a camera are different than standard vision. He flew into a hill on his own property. I can't say that I as a young pilot compared to this veteran haven't made stupid mistakes, but I would take far fewer risks than he would. To every rule there is an exception--because people are individuals. Some are able to compensate. The best person you'll ever know is the person who says, "I don't know, but I'll find out." And then they do. THAT's what I mean when I say "My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience." -- Leigh Anne > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > David L. Blair > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:53 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > ""Leigh Anne Chisholm"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better > job > > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by > the > > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new > kid on the > > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb > job. > > Reference the movie, "Rainmaker". > > > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the > > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. > > > Another example: > When I was in the Air National Guard flying in the backseat of > the F-4D Jet > Fighter, a similar phenomenon would happen. The rookie air > crews took some > risk due to inexperience and stupidity, but generally follow procedures > better than the experienced air crews who had long since realized that the > world would not end if a we rules were bent or broken. > > > "Through Complexity there is Simplicity, >Through Simplicity there is Complexity" > > David L. Blair - CCNP, CCNA, MCSE, CBE, A+, 3Wizard Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19135&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
""Leigh Anne Chisholm"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better job > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by the > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb job. Reference the movie, "Rainmaker". > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. Another example: When I was in the Air National Guard flying in the backseat of the F-4D Jet Fighter, a similar phenomenon would happen. The rookie air crews took some risk due to inexperience and stupidity, but generally follow procedures better than the experienced air crews who had long since realized that the world would not end if a we rules were bent or broken. "Through Complexity there is Simplicity, Through Simplicity there is Complexity" David L. Blair - CCNP, CCNA, MCSE, CBE, A+, 3Wizard Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19124&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
On Jan 28, 10:39am, "Buri, Heather L." wrote: } } Just some food for thought...I wonder how many people on this list would be } getting this upset if the journalist had used the MCSE certification as an } example and not the CCIE? :-) Being an MCP (Workstation 4.0, Server 4.0, Server 4.0 in the Enterprise; which are the core OS exams for NT 4.0), I would not get upset at all. The stuff on these exams barely qualifies one for an entry level position. The Enterprise exam was a complete joke. I studied for it in two weeks at Christmas time. The stuff tested on that exam was real basic and wasn't anywhere near the level of knowledge that would be needed in an enterprise. For example, somebody that only knows the stuff taught at the MCSE level would think that the only way to add an account is to use "User Manager for Domains", which is a gui app. Somebody that has gone beyond the MCSE level would know that you can type "net /useradd ..." at the command line; which, of course, is something that can be scripted. The MCSE stuff barely gives lip service to the command line; the only commands taught are ipconfig, ping, tracert, and nslookup. To be a real admin, you need to be able to automate repititious or complex stuff, as well as understand how things work so that you can troubleshoot when things go wrong. }-- End of excerpt from "Buri, Heather L." Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19108&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better job than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by the system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb job. Did I mention I used to head up an IT division at a major Canadian law firm? (-: My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Chuck Larrieu > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:48 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about > what the one day lab would end up doing? ;-> > > may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate broker's > exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of > takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the > guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years > experience? > How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or > another? Want that > lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try > through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he? > > and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker > examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about > credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to > come live in California? > > Chuck > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Brad Ellis > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > Chuck, > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! > I know a > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I > consider the CCIE > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > someone with minimal competence. > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general > public would > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally > competent to be an insult. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and > deserving of every > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets > from > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab > test. > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about > networking. > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained > the > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way > through > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolu
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about what the one day lab would end up doing? ;-> may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate broker's exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years experience? How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or another? Want that lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he? and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to come live in California? Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brad Ellis Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] Chuck, Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than someone with minimal competence. Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally competent to be an insult. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from > one interface to another in a router. > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test. > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking. > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available ( I > refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for > names and sources ) > > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it. > > hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what really > matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. to > those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill set. > in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of > something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. > > Chuck > back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Don Claybrook > Se
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Just some food for thought...I wonder how many people on this list would be getting this upset if the journalist had used the MCSE certification as an example and not the CCIE? :-) Don't get me wrong...I agree with most of the people's opinions expressed thus far and that is that this journalist most likely does not understand what goes into obtaining a CCIE and he probably pulled that cert from his morning read through the want ads, but I still think it is an interesting question. How many people would be as upset if he had used MCSE as the example. Ok. I am ducking for cover now. Hope everyone has a nice weekend! Heather > -Original Message- > From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:51 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > Bottom line, IMHO: the journalist didn't know a thing about CCIE and > assumed it is similar to other certs. I bet he didn't even know that it > requires a hands-on lab. Notice that he also claims to be able to talk to > car mechanics and plumbers. I bet they just love him! He's probably one of > > those guys who mucks everything up and then calls the plumber. > > The REAL bottom line: We should just ignore his silly article. ;-) > > Priscilla > > At 12:09 PM 9/7/01, Brad Ellis wrote: > >Chuck, > > > >Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know > a > >few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that > the > >EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the > CCIE > >level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > >competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > >competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a > fundamental > >understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. > I > >would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > >networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > >someone with minimal competence. > > > >Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent > in > >the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > >saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > >To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public > would > >disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > >competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > >CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them > minimally > >competent to be an insult. > > > >-Brad Ellis > >CCIE#5796 > > > >""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of > every > > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet > gets > >from > > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab > >test. > > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about > >networking. > > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have > attained > >the > > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully > memorized > > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way > >through > > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they > memorized. > > > > > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months > whose > > > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all > were > > > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > > > > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing > in > >my > > > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or > any > >of > > > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made > me > > > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily > a
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
This reminds me of a jury selection process I went through some time back. It was rape case against a Doctor. The defense counsel were asking about 25 of us questions trying to pare us down into a 14 person jury. 12 members two alternates. The defense asked us all to raise our hands if we had any work experience with the medical field. A few people did. The first question the defense counsel asked a perspective juror who had raised their hand was... "Have you ever had any prejudice for any doctor?" The juror answered yes. The second question... "what caused that perjudice"? I didn't like one Doctor because they didn't treat their patients right. Well as a look of disgust passed over the defense lawyer the judge jumped in and asked... "what do you do in the medical field?" I am a nurses assistant. Well there was an audible thud. The judge proceeded to go on a five minute tiraid undressing that person, summarizing that they were in no position to evaluate a Doctors competancy because they did not receive the proper training and that their prejudice was based solely on a personal bias. The judge then turned to the rest of us saying that we were excused, stating that we were tainted because of the personal bais that was expressed. Life lesson; people like Brad (CCIE's) have the right to determine and uphold the competency of CCIE's because, quess what, they're in the club, we're not. Cadets in training, wannabees, and fruitcakes can only speculate. Difference between some of us and the Larry's of the world, we will be joining that club then we can talk about what a CCIE should and shouldn't be because we are a CCIE and have undergone the training and became certified. That juvenile ripost "takes one to know one" aint a bad way to go. Don PS Brad Cool, Larry Smack!!! that's the old Don PSS That nurses aid is my hero they got me out of jury duty, which would of had me tied up for twenty two days. It was a highly publisized case in the media. Oh, and he went down. PSSS Ten hour work day, three hour lab action tonight and its friday. I changed my mind Larry is big Smack - Original Message ----- From: "Brad Ellis" To: Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:09 AM Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > Chuck, > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > someone with minimal competence. > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally > competent to be an insult. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets > from > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab > test. > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about > networking. > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained > the > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way > through > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > > > I personall
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Bottom line, IMHO: the journalist didn't know a thing about CCIE and assumed it is similar to other certs. I bet he didn't even know that it requires a hands-on lab. Notice that he also claims to be able to talk to car mechanics and plumbers. I bet they just love him! He's probably one of those guys who mucks everything up and then calls the plumber. The REAL bottom line: We should just ignore his silly article. ;-) Priscilla At 12:09 PM 9/7/01, Brad Ellis wrote: >Chuck, > >Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a >few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the >EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE >level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal >competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal >competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental >understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I >would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of >networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than >someone with minimal competence. > >Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in >the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like >saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. >To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would >disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal >competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other >CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally >competent to be an insult. > >-Brad Ellis >CCIE#5796 > >""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets >from > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab >test. > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about >networking. > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained >the > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way >through > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in >my > > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any >of > > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me > > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available >( I > > refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for > > names and sources ) > > > > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as >I > > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did > > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind >it. > > > > hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what >really > > matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. >to > > those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill >set. > > in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of > > something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. > > > > Chuck > > back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Don Claybrook > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an >excerp
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Was this person an actual CCIE or had he only passed the Written. *Big* difference. ""Matthew Crane"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > After 20+ years in the IT business & having just completed a series of > interviews for a CCIE post, I have to agree that paper qualifcations are not > a measure of ability. These are some of the questions asked with answers of > people with genuine CCIE certifcation. > They are not likely to keep their certifcations as Cisco were present at > these interviews. > > q. What is the maximum size Ethernet frame > a. 4096 > q. Bits or Bytes > a. Bits > > q. How many bits in an IPX address & subnet mask > a. 48 in the address & 72 in the mask. > > q. Take me through the process of creating a VLAN across 2 switches > a. type vtp enable in global configuration mode > q. Anything else > a. Reload the switches > > Get the idea, so people do not assume because you can read books and pass a > few exams that you know anything about the REAL world of networking. The > point Larry is making is true of any form of Cisco certifcation be it CCNA, > CCDA CCNP or indeed any form of certifcation generally. > > Oh and for the record Cisco asked to come along to the interviews because of > a long discussion I had with their senior managers in the UK about the > devaluation of the certifcation program. Remember the answers above all came > from so called CCIE's > Don Claybrook wrote: > > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is > > an excerpt. > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on > > how to hire > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's > > talking about > > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a > > consultant's > > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, > > just as my > > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. > > Terms like CCIE > > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful > > completion of > > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the > > group might get > > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the > > whole thing: > > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > > > Don Claybrook > > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of > > CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18999&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
fyi - "I know a few CCIEs that I would let touch..." should have been "... that I wouldn't let touch.." -Brad ""Brad Ellis"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Chuck, > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than > someone with minimal competence. > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally > competent to be an insult. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets > from > > one interface to another in a router. > > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab > test. > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about > networking. > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained > the > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way > through > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in > my > > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any > of > > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me > > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available > ( I > > refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for > > names and sources ) > > > > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as > I > > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did > > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind > it. > > > > hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what > really > > matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. > to > > those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill > set. > > in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of > > something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. > > > > Chuck > > back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Don Claybrook > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an > excerpt. > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking > > about > > h
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Chuck, Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than someone with minimal competence. Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players. To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally competent to be an insult. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > dollar they get and every contract they land. > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from > one interface to another in a router. > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test. > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking. > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available ( I > refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for > names and sources ) > > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it. > > hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what really > matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. to > those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill set. > in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of > something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. > > Chuck > back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Don Claybrook > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking > about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like > CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18995&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Well let me think about this.I spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on books and hands on Cisco training. I also spent several thousands of dollars buying my own pod for training for the lab. I also redesigned the routing and switching design for a fortune 50 company and troubleshoot routers all around the world all day everyday. I'm studying for the lab now and I have nowhere near the knowledge and HANDS ON ABILITY to pass the lab. Not to brag on myself, and I'm sure a lot of people on this list have the same experience I do multiplied by thousands, but I guess I, and everyone else on this list, have minimal network competence. Obviously this guy has no idea what the CCIE program is about. I think maybe he should go to some HANDS ON TRAINING for journalism to emphasize the point THAT YOU SHOULD RESEARCH A TOPIC BEFORE YOU WRITE ON IT JERKY. -Original Message- From: Brad Ellis To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 9/6/01 2:05 PM Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] It's nice to know I have at least minimal competence! Obviously this guy is a well respected network-engineer and we should take everything he says to heart (cough) (cough) (sigh). We need to send him to Halifax for a couple days and see what he says after Stephen Barnes tortures him!!! (just kidding Steve) Don - After a little sleuthing, I did track down his email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (minimally competent) ""Don Claybrook"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18988&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
I think we're taking the author's illustration way too personally, myself. Other comments in-line - Original Message - From: "Chuck Larrieu" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every > dollar they get and every contract they land. > Agree with both of those points > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from > one interface to another in a router. > Haven't met one of those yet > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test. > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking. > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were > pretty sharp dudes, by the way. > It wouldn't surprise me, with the wealth of study information that's available today. It sure didn't happen like that (very often) 5 years ago. Getting ANY CCIE to tell you even what to study was like asking them to commit professional suicide, because the NDA was so strongly supported by the CCIE's. > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available I > refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for > names and sources ) > ...and the practice material is really no match for being in the heat of battle when a route-flapping issue has you hopping from router to router to router shutting down the redundant interfaces, or when that production net routing loop bites you in the fanny and you can't figure out which route(s) to filter or disable but you know you have to do SOMETHING quickly. Or when your boss comes to you with "I heard in version 10.3 you can do frame relay traffic shaping, and I want you to upgrade, and enable traffic shaping on your 15 remotes and 3 hub routers, and I want it done in a week so I don't have to upgrade those circuits" > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it. > And the author of the article felt that the CCIE has fundamental knowledge. (This sentiment, by the way, is supported by one of the proctors that spoke in the Networkers 2000 tapes). The "Expert" part of the certification name unfortunately is held too highly - WHEN I pass my certification, I'm just smart enough to know that even though I am a CCIE, I'm no expert in internetworking. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18926&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
I think the author was either being sarcastic or is just uninformed of what technology really is. I feel bad that I even wasted this much bandwidth discussing it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about how certifications aren't as important as one might think: "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of the program and minimal competence in the product." I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might get a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18903&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
You might have a point, Chuck. And I've not attained a CCIE but if we can use CCNP/CCDP as an analogue, consider the following: when studying for Cisco tests, I've been as guilty as anyone else of "cramming" in order to pass the test. But I think (I hope) I have a sense of what the "meat" is versus what the "fluff" is, or those concepts that I will use over and over as opposed to those things I'm not likely to run into again and just need to memorize for purposes of a test. In any given week, I'm apt to run into frame relay, ISDN, PIX/VPN/FFS, dynamic routing, VLANs, Trunking, and on and on. In other words, it pays to read for understanding. It's not the same as a political science test that one might study for in college. The only real-world application (for most) is having an edge in good political conversation. But I see a direct corollary between test/study material and doing my job successfully, and I see it every day. I think that what I am saying is that studying for certifications in the manner I do has a direct and positive impact on the competence of my work. I'll grant that one may be able to pass a CCIE lab some other way, but I personally don't think I could succeed that way and I think it would be a terrible waste of time for me to engage in such a thing. Lastly, there's a fear factor. I have this dream about passing the lab the first time around (realistic? You tell me, but that's the dream). In order to have the faintest chance of passing on the first go-round, my knowledge had better be both deep and wide. Put another way, I don't want to "squeak by" in the lab. I would like for a proctor to look at my work and say, yes, this person does work commensurate with the CCIE-level. I want it to be a gauge of my overall ability and not a gauge of my temporary "ability" at some slice in time that's not sustainable. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way. And so I took umbrage at the article when I saw the words "minimal competence" attached to CCIE. I guess you're right, Chuck. It depends. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Chuck Larrieu Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every dollar they get and every contract they land. I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from one interface to another in a router. all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test. It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking. I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were pretty sharp dudes, by the way. >From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available ( I refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for names and sources ) whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it. hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what really matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. to those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill set. in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. Chuck back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 -----Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talk
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends". sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us. I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every dollar they get and every contract they land. I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from one interface to another in a router. all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test. It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking. I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized. I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were pretty sharp dudes, by the way. >From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available ( I refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for names and sources ) whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it. hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what really matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. to those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill set. in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think. Chuck back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about how certifications aren't as important as one might think: "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of the program and minimal competence in the product." I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might get a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18890&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
I don't know where you dug up these "CCIEs". I know a couple of people who have recently passed and a couple of others in my group who have gone to the lab once and get to go again and several others who have made it. Do they know everything, hell no but I can tell you everyone of them has busted their ass to attain the knowledge and even more importantly the hands on required to pass the lab. I recently took my CCIE recert and I failed by 4 points. It's a damn book test that you pass only by cramming for a couple of days and regurgitating the results on test day. I think that's the beauty of lab, reading books ain't gonna do it. Prior to taking the CCIE I went to one Cisco class, the reason I was able to get thru was the REAL world experience I had gained on the job and lots of lab exercises and I think the same is true for others though I'm sure I'll find out if I'm wrong:) Is the CCIE cert perfect, of coarse not but it's a damn sight better than many other certifications one can obtain. off the soap box... Dave Matthew Crane wrote: > > After 20+ years in the IT business & having just completed a series of > interviews for a CCIE post, I have to agree that paper qualifcations are not > a measure of ability. These are some of the questions asked with answers of > people with genuine CCIE certifcation. > They are not likely to keep their certifcations as Cisco were present at > these interviews. > > q. What is the maximum size Ethernet frame > a. 4096 > q. Bits or Bytes > a. Bits > > q. How many bits in an IPX address & subnet mask > a. 48 in the address & 72 in the mask. > > q. Take me through the process of creating a VLAN across 2 switches > a. type vtp enable in global configuration mode > q. Anything else > a. Reload the switches > > Get the idea, so people do not assume because you can read books and pass a > few exams that you know anything about the REAL world of networking. The > point Larry is making is true of any form of Cisco certifcation be it CCNA, > CCDA CCNP or indeed any form of certifcation generally. > > Oh and for the record Cisco asked to come along to the interviews because of > a long discussion I had with their senior managers in the UK about the > devaluation of the certifcation program. Remember the answers above all came > from so called CCIE's > Don Claybrook wrote: > > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is > > an excerpt. > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on > > how to hire > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's > > talking about > > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a > > consultant's > > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, > > just as my > > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. > > Terms like CCIE > > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful > > completion of > > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the > > group might get > > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the > > whole thing: > > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > > > Don Claybrook > > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of > > CCIE) -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 "Emotion should reflect reason not guide it" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18864&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
AMEN - Original Message - From: "Donald B Johnson jr" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:36 PM Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > Yeah we all know what I'd do if he were on this list with that drivel. At > least he analogized his Political Science degree with a CCIE. > > Here is the kind of brilliant statement that sets me off: > > "So what can you do to identify good geeks? There's no substitute for > talking their language. Don't go out and get a degree in the stuff, but > going online and approaching the problem as if you wanted to solve it > yourself will prepare you to have a real conversation and ferret out whether > someone isn't up to snuff. If you've narrowed the problem to one vendor, > such as persistent Windows crashes, go to that vendor's online database of > problems and solutions; any decent computer company will have one." > > And I have been staying up till 2am every night messing with my lab when all > I really need is the lingo. > > Don > - Original Message - > From: "Don Claybrook" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:31 AM > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an > excerpt. > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking > about > > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like > CCIE > > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion > of > > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > > get > > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole > thing: > > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > > > Don Claybrook > > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18863&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Good job detective Brad!! I'll copy Mr Seltzer since I don't like to talk about people behind their back. I'll take my CCIE over his political Sci degree any day. Dave Brad Ellis wrote: > > It's nice to know I have at least minimal competence! Obviously this guy is > a well respected network-engineer and we should take everything he says to > heart (cough) (cough) (sigh). We need to send him to Halifax for a couple > days and see what he says after Stephen Barnes tortures him!!! (just > kidding Steve) > > Don - After a little sleuthing, I did track down his email address: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 (minimally competent) > > ""Don Claybrook"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an > excerpt. > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking > about > > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like > CCIE > > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion > of > > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > > get > > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole > thing: > > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > > > Don Claybrook > > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 "Emotion should reflect reason not guide it" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18860&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Yeah we all know what I'd do if he were on this list with that drivel. At least he analogized his Political Science degree with a CCIE. Here is the kind of brilliant statement that sets me off: "So what can you do to identify good geeks? There's no substitute for talking their language. Don't go out and get a degree in the stuff, but going online and approaching the problem as if you wanted to solve it yourself will prepare you to have a real conversation and ferret out whether someone isn't up to snuff. If you've narrowed the problem to one vendor, such as persistent Windows crashes, go to that vendor's online database of problems and solutions; any decent computer company will have one." And I have been staying up till 2am every night messing with my lab when all I really need is the lingo. Don - Original Message - From: "Don Claybrook" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:31 AM Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18855&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
After 20+ years in the IT business & having just completed a series of interviews for a CCIE post, I have to agree that paper qualifcations are not a measure of ability. These are some of the questions asked with answers of people with genuine CCIE certifcation. They are not likely to keep their certifcations as Cisco were present at these interviews. q. What is the maximum size Ethernet frame a. 4096 q. Bits or Bytes a. Bits q. How many bits in an IPX address & subnet mask a. 48 in the address & 72 in the mask. q. Take me through the process of creating a VLAN across 2 switches a. type vtp enable in global configuration mode q. Anything else a. Reload the switches Get the idea, so people do not assume because you can read books and pass a few exams that you know anything about the REAL world of networking. The point Larry is making is true of any form of Cisco certifcation be it CCNA, CCDA CCNP or indeed any form of certifcation generally. Oh and for the record Cisco asked to come along to the interviews because of a long discussion I had with their senior managers in the UK about the devaluation of the certifcation program. Remember the answers above all came from so called CCIE's Don Claybrook wrote: > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is > an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on > how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's > talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a > consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, > just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. > Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful > completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the > group might get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the > whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of > CCIE) > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18853&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
It's nice to know I have at least minimal competence! Obviously this guy is a well respected network-engineer and we should take everything he says to heart (cough) (cough) (sigh). We need to send him to Halifax for a couple days and see what he says after Stephen Barnes tortures him!!! (just kidding Steve) Don - After a little sleuthing, I did track down his email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (minimally competent) ""Don Claybrook"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18849&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
***MINIMAL*** competence??? Right. And being promoted to Lucasian Professor of Mathematics is merely an indication of minimal competence in Trig. (Okay, so maybe that's an unfair exaggeration...it just really burns my toast to see some typewriter jockey pooh-pooh the CCIE.) - Original Message - From: "Don Claybrook" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18848&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
When I'm old and senile, I too want to be a reviewer (says she thinking of one of Amazon.com's editorial reviewers)... > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Don Claybrook > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:32 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is > an excerpt. > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's > talking about > how certifications aren't as important as one might think: > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. > Terms like CCIE > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful > completion of > the program and minimal competence in the product." > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might > get > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the > whole thing: > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp > > Don Claybrook > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18847&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
When you use the term journalist in conjunction with Larry Seltzer, you need to use quoties...as in "journalist".sadly there are some circles where he is taken seriously "Don Claybrook" cc: Sent by: Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843] nobody@groupstudy .com 09/06/2001 02:31 PM Please respond to "Don Claybrook" I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about how certifications aren't as important as one might think: "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of the program and minimal competence in the product." I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might get a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18846&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt. The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking about how certifications aren't as important as one might think: "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of the program and minimal competence in the product." I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might get a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing: http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18843&t=18843 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
