RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
No, we upgraded it ourselves Rico, I was there throughout the ninetieswe went from Banyan environments to IP (Unix/NT). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rico Ortiz Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] When I was in the Marines (about 10 yrs ago) the used Banyard Vines for there networks. I believe EDS has been hired to upgrade there current network to an IP setup.. Rico -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their networking systems, not TCP/IP!? Priscilla At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which pro
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I worked my last contract I don't want to say where, but a major educational testing place. They still had banyan Vines in 2001. although I didn't touch it besides migration. I didn't think it was still around. We migrated them to Windows 2000. The banyan Vines servers left, but the mindsets of the admins were still banyan, even after the servers left. Every conversation was always on banyan, we used to. Thankfully I was just a contractor and left after 7 Months. Me and the other contracters with current skills would always roll our eyes. -Original Message- From: William Gragido [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] No, we upgraded it ourselves Rico, I was there throughout the ninetieswe went from Banyan environments to IP (Unix/NT). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rico Ortiz Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] When I was in the Marines (about 10 yrs ago) the used Banyard Vines for there networks. I believe EDS has been hired to upgrade there current network to an IP setup.. Rico -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their networking systems, not TCP/IP!? Priscilla At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely U
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40632t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40637t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40639t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Well, if we're veering off into the realm of political commentary and putdown, I suppose it's ok to ask whether George W. Bush could spell TCP/IP all by himself. - Original Message - From: Brian Zeitz To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40642t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Ya we just had 8 years with a smart president. Gimme a break. Going to have me a beer before the liberals outlaw it, tabacco, fatty foods, skateboards, SUVs etc... Dave Don Claybrook wrote: Well, if we're veering off into the realm of political commentary and putdown, I suppose it's ok to ask whether George W. Bush could spell TCP/IP all by himself. - Original Message - From: Brian Zeitz To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40645t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
What?? Those of you who insist on detracting a good conversation with needless comments like that have to much time on your hands, Don. Why don't you and others like you stick to the topic and not be so tempted to provide such a short-sighted remark. Jeffrey W. Hall Network Administrator, MCSE, CCNA, SCSA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 6:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Well, if we're veering off into the realm of political commentary and putdown, I suppose it's ok to ask whether George W. Bush could spell TCP/IP all by himself. - Original Message - From: Brian Zeitz To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40646t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
When I was in the Marines (about 10 yrs ago) the used Banyard Vines for there networks. I believe EDS has been hired to upgrade there current network to an IP setup.. Rico -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their networking systems, not TCP/IP!? Priscilla At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Sorry, Mr. Hall. Take a look at the order of operations. I was making the point that this was a technical forum that probably didn't need politics inserted. I was RESPONDING to someone who made the political remark in the first place. I'll discontinue this since the purpose is supposed to be all Cisco all the time here, but since you called me out by name, I thought I'd take a stab at defending my statement before bowing out. Thanks. Peace. Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP, CSS1 (without much extra time on my hands) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeffrey W. Hall Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] What?? Those of you who insist on detracting a good conversation with needless comments like that have to much time on your hands, Don. Why don't you and others like you stick to the topic and not be so tempted to provide such a short-sighted remark. Jeffrey W. Hall Network Administrator, MCSE, CCNA, SCSA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 6:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Well, if we're veering off into the realm of political commentary and putdown, I suppose it's ok to ask whether George W. Bush could spell TCP/IP all by himself. - Original Message - From: Brian Zeitz To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40652t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
My two cents - for what it's worth ... first, we all understand the purpose of this forum, but like in 3D conversations, sometimes the topics veer. Perhaps we need to redirect things back, but my God, folks - we're human beings, after all. Just because we're so intimately involved in machinery, they are, after all, just machines! And my own pet peeve, just because someone comments on something not appealing to you doesn't mean they have too much time on their hands - frankly, they seem to be more well-rounded than the one-trick ponies in the world. If you disagree with the man's politics, great - just say so in a non-aggressive manner and move on. Have a non-confrontational weekend, folks. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sorry, Mr. Hall. Take a look at the order of operations. I was making the point that this was a technical forum that probably didn't need politics inserted. I was RESPONDING to someone who made the political remark in the first place. I'll discontinue this since the purpose is supposed to be all Cisco all the time here, but since you called me out by name, I thought I'd take a stab at defending my statement before bowing out. Thanks. Peace. Don Claybrook CCNP, CCDP, CSS1 (without much extra time on my hands) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeffrey W. Hall Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] What?? Those of you who insist on detracting a good conversation with needless comments like that have to much time on your hands, Don. Why don't you and others like you stick to the topic and not be so tempted to provide such a short-sighted remark. Jeffrey W. Hall Network Administrator, MCSE, CCNA, SCSA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Don Claybrook Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 6:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Well, if we're veering off into the realm of political commentary and putdown, I suppose it's ok to ask whether George W. Bush could spell TCP/IP all by himself. - Original Message - From: Brian Zeitz To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Yea, it was Al Gore who invented TCP/IP and the internet, all by himself. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Vint Cerf wasn't commissioned. He was a graduate student at UCLA. BBN set up the infrastructure of the ARPANET and got the Interface Message Processors (routers) and the 56-Kbps links up and running. To use the ARPANET, universities had to write software for the devices that connected to the ARPANET. TCP/IP grew out of that effort. Priscilla At 03:47 PM 4/5/02, Rico Ortiz wrote: My understanding is Vint Cerf, was the creator of the TCP/IP protocols. Not sure but was he not commissioned by DOD/BBN during the ARPAnet days.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40656t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I would recommend Where Wizards Stay Up Late : The Origins of the Internet Touchstone Books; ISBN: 0684832674 This book does not just have the technical detail, but is a great read. HTH Dom Stocqueler Michael WilliamsTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 19:37 Please respond to Michael Williams It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39737t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39738t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I wonder if its just urban legend, but I've always heard that the reason IPv4 is expressed in decimal (as opposed to hex) is because a military review (i.e. a general) nixed it. Those aren't numbers. Those are letters. Jay Dunn IPI*GrammTech, Ltd. www.ipi-gt.com Nunquam Facilis Est -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. Priscilla Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39739t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. Well, the first problem would be to define Internet Community, which always has had research participants at government labs. The first widely available reference implementation of TCP/IP was in Berkeley UNIX 4.2. Subnets were introduced in 4.3. IP and TCP were developed roughly at the same time. While Vint Cerf wrote the specification for TCP, I vaguely remember that Dan Lynch may have written the code. I'm honestly not sure. It definely was not Len Bosack and Sandy Lerner. Yes, there were ARPANET protocols that preceded TCP/IP. You must remember, however, that in the early days, much of the academic work was funded by government (mostly military ARPA) grants and contracts. BBN had the non-trivial job of herding cats...I mean running the network. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39746t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39753t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
the real reason being.? Research. (see below) be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler Lobachevsky Tom Lehrer Who made me the genius I am today, The mathematician that others all quote, Who's the professor that made me that way? The greatest that ever got chalk on his coat. One man deserves the credit, One man deserves the blame, And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovich Lobach- I am never forget the day I first meet the great Lochevsky. In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarize! Plagiarize, Let no one else's work evade your eyes, Remember why the good Lord made your eyes, So don't shade your eyes, But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize - Only be sure always to call it please 'research'. And ever since I meet this man My life is not the same, And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovich Lobach- I am never forget the day I am given first original paper to write. It was on analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold. Bozhe moi! This I know from nothing. But I think of great Lobachevsky and get idea - ahah! I have a friend in Minsk, Who has a friend in Pinsk, Whose friend in Omsk Has friend in Tomsk With friend in Akmolinsk. His friend in Alexandrovsk Has friend in Petropavlovsk, Whose friend somehow Is solving now The problem in Dnepropetrovsk. And when his work is done - Haha! - begins the fun. From Dnepropetrovsk To Petropavlovsk, By way of Iliysk, And Novorossiysk, To Alexandrovsk to Akmolinsk To Tomsk to Omsk To Pinsk to Minsk To me the news will run, Yes, to me the news will run! And then I write By morning, night, And afternoon, And pretty soon My name in Dnepropetrovsk is cursed, When he finds out I publish first! And who made me a big success And brought me wealth and fame? Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovish Lobach - I am never forget the day my first book is published. Every chapter I stole from somewhere else. Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory. This book was sensational! Pravda - well, Pravda - Pravda said: (Russian double-talk) It stinks. But Izvestia! Izvestia said: (Russian double-talk) It stinks. Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva buys movie rights for six million rubles, Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle', With Ingrid Bergman playing part of hypotenuse. And who deserves the credit? And who deserves the blame? Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39776t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39778t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their networking systems, not TCP/IP!? Priscilla At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39815t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Yes, thats true, we ran Banyon Vines, the USMC that is in addition to various Unix variants. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their networking systems, not TCP/IP!? Priscilla At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry Dom. Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in networking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP, and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed. Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio. Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled, including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks. Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets. Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=3983
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Now they use TCP/IP for the most part and run Cisco routers.
--
RFC 1149 Compliant.
Get in my head:
http://sar.dynu.com
William Gragido wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Yes, thats true, we ran Banyon Vines, the USMC that is in addition to
various Unix variants.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Priscilla Oppenheimer
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
And I've heard that the US side in Desert Storm used Banyan for their
networking systems, not TCP/IP!?
Priscilla
At 12:05 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
Thats what the DoD taught in their DataCommunications Schools. Sorry
Dom.
Absolutely, positively wrong, though. That's an urban legend that has
been disavowed by every early developer I can think of, including the
DARPA people. It developed out of pure DARPA sponsored research in
networking.
I'm hard-pressed to think of any nuclear command control
communications system, before the mid-80's or so, that used TCP/IP,
and at one time I knew pretty much every system that was deployed.
Among the ones I can talk about, they were circuit-switched or radio.
Some of the circuit-switched networks were computer controlled,
including AUTODIN I and a variety of intelligent networks.
Without detailed research, I'd tend to say the first military TCP/IP
applications were in tactical, not strategic, nets.
Actually, the first demonstration that packet switched networks were
resilient to massive attack came from the Iraqi air defense system in
Desert Storm.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Chuck
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
the real reason being.?
wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Sorry, the
be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks
is a myth.
Dom Stocqueler
William
Gragido To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD
[7:39657]
Sent
by:
nobody@groups
tudy.com
27/03/2002
20:17
Please
respond
to
William
Gragido
The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in
1983.
DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be
resilient
to
Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued,
uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of
multi-vendor
solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision
of
the
DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two
yielding
a
smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the
modern
internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all
know
by
virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was
de-regulated
in
1991 ushering the age of the modern internet.
Hope that helps,
Will Gragido
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of
Michael Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of
a
book
covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for
training,
etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the
internet
even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use
the
same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess,
from
what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure
that
peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual
deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes
(with a
total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT,
RAND,
SDC,
Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames.
Note
most
of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN,
however
it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers
(Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as
Information
Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?).
However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw
their
2
cents in here.
Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you
choose
as well. For example you use the word written over and over
above,
but
I
don't think the conversation is really about which programmers
actually
wrote th
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
ARPA managers were irritated by the lack of communications between diverse systems and the need to learn many arcane command languages to talk to each system. Priscilla At 10:00 AM 3/28/02, Chuck wrote: the real reason being.? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sorry, the be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks is a myth. Dom Stocqueler William Gragido To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] Sent by: nobody@groups tudy.com 27/03/2002 20:17 Please respond to William Gragido The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39848t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
ARPA managers were irritated by the lack of communications between diverse systems and the need to learn many arcane command languages to talk to each system. Priscilla But ARPANET just gave you the pipes. You still had to use CP/CMS on the 360/67, MULTICS on the Honeywells, NCP CLI on the Vaxen, JCL or TSO on the other 360s and 370s, EXEC 8 language on the 1108s, etc I will agree that the incompatible communications _protocols_ were an issue, but ARPANET did nothing to solve command language compatibility. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39864t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Having a network made the problem of command language incompatibility less of an issue. A researcher could use the hardware and OS of choice and at least send messages to a different piece of hardware with some other OS. With the right software, one could send messages to users and also execute commands and jobs. There was less need to learn many different command languages. According to Bob Taylor of ARPA, this is the problem he wanted to solve. He was an early victim of the swivel chair approach to IS (having to work with many different terminals). We still have that problem, of course, so obviously networks don't solve everything! (I get the info about Bob Taylor secondhand from the book Where Wizards Stay Up Late. It's possible the author slightly misinterpreted what he said about his goals. The book is fascinating but there are a few cases where someone who actually works in the industry kind of wonders about the details described.) Priscilla At 08:17 PM 3/28/02, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: ARPA managers were irritated by the lack of communications between diverse systems and the need to learn many arcane command languages to talk to each system. Priscilla But ARPANET just gave you the pipes. You still had to use CP/CMS on the 360/67, MULTICS on the Honeywells, NCP CLI on the Vaxen, JCL or TSO on the other 360s and 370s, EXEC 8 language on the 1108s, etc I will agree that the incompatible communications _protocols_ were an issue, but ARPANET did nothing to solve command language compatibility. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39875t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39670t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
The DoD adopted TCP/IP as its native protocol for communications in 1983. DARPA lead the charge for a communications system that would be resilient to Global Thermal Nuclear attacks (therein allowing for continued, uninterrupted comm), and would allow for common connectivity of multi-vendor solutions. This of course did yield 'ARPA NET' which, by a decision of the DCA (Defense Communications Agency), in 1983 was split in two yielding a smaller version of 'ARPA NET' and 'MILNET'. The evolution of the modern internet can followed done the line from 'ARPA NET' and as we all know by virtue of adding new networks to the mix, 'ARPA NET' was de-regulated in 1991 ushering the age of the modern internet. Hope that helps, Will Gragido -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39677t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I know I shouldn't say written, but I seem to remember a Wired atricle mentioning Judy Estrin and Bill Carrico, working under Vint Cerf, as the authors of TCP's predacessor in 1975. Anyone know? -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Michael Williams wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... It's kinda fuzzy. I myself just got through doing a tech review of a book covering this topic as well as have written my own materials for training, etc covering this topic. IMHO, DoD is credited with creating the internet even though at the time it wasn't called the internet and didn't use the same protocols we do now. Although the DoD started the whole mess, from what I've read DoD commisioned ARPANET to research this. I'm sure that peoples are various universities and colleges were in on the actual deveopment evidenced by the fact that in 1971 there were 15 nodes (with a total of 23 hosts), namely UCLA, SRI, UCSB, U of Utah, BBN, MIT, RAND, SDC, Harvard, Lincoln Lab, Stanford, UIU(C), CWRU, CMU, and NASA/Ames. Note most of those listed are colleges/universities. I've read some about BBN, however it seems to me their main role was to supply the first computers (Honeywell 516 mini computers with 12K of memory) that acted as Information Message Processors (IMPs) (routers?). However, I would humbly suggest that Howard B. or Priscilla O. throw their 2 cents in here. Also, since your doing a technical edit, be careful of the words you choose as well. For example you use the word written over and over above, but I don't think the conversation is really about which programmers actually wrote the code it's more about who either spearheaded or caused the evolution of the *standards* we call TCP/IP in which case I don't think crediting the DoD is incorrect. My 2 cents =) Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39679t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. Priscilla , and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39681t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) Us Bostonians aren't that bad, are we? The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. Is UDP a west-coast thing? UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. I'll definitely read that book, as I love that kind of stuff. Priscilla , and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39684t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
Start with RFC 01 ietf org site. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Steven A. Ridder Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN, and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39694t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
No, you Bostonians aren't that bad. I'll be there in June for my hubby's MIT reunion. Should be interesting. I don't know the history of UDP. It sounds like it could have come from Berkeley or Santa Cruz or Eugene or some such pinko, commie, anarchist place! ;-) Priscilla At 03:41 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) Us Bostonians aren't that bad, are we? The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. Is UDP a west-coast thing? UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. I'll definitely read that book, as I love that kind of stuff. Priscilla , and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=39697t=39657 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
I used to work with a guy who loved to call University of Berkely the University of Bezerkly. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... No, you Bostonians aren't that bad. I'll be there in June for my hubby's MIT reunion. Should be interesting. I don't know the history of UDP. It sounds like it could have come from Berkeley or Santa Cruz or Eugene or some such pinko, commie, anarchist place! ;-) Priscilla At 03:41 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) Us Bostonians aren't that bad, are we? The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. Is UDP a west-coast thing? UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. I'll definitely read that book, as I love that kind of stuff. Priscilla , and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet, but not TCP. I thought TCP was written in various universities. I could even look up the couple (who used to work at Cisco) who wrote it. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com
RE: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657]
i heard a saying one time that the only good things that came out of berkley was Free BSD and LSD ;) no offense to alumni -Original Message- From: Steven A. Ridder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TCP/IP and DOD [7:39657] I used to work with a guy who loved to call University of Berkely the University of Bezerkly. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... No, you Bostonians aren't that bad. I'll be there in June for my hubby's MIT reunion. Should be interesting. I don't know the history of UDP. It sounds like it could have come from Berkeley or Santa Cruz or Eugene or some such pinko, commie, anarchist place! ;-) Priscilla At 03:41 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The history of TCP/IP is somewhat muddy, as you can imagine. At 02:04 PM 3/27/02, Steven A. Ridder wrote: I am a technical reviewer for a book, and someone wrote that TCP/IP was written by the Depertment of Defense. I agree that you should question that. I am confident that ARPAnet was commissiond by the DoD in the 60's to BBN Yes, you could say that. The Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) of ARPA awarded the contract to build the Interface Message Processors (IMP) for ARPANET to BBN in late 1968. IMPs were the early routers. BBN built the IMPs with the help (or hindrance if you believe some reports) of Honeywell. Honeywell developed and manufactured the hardware. BBN did the software. Descriptions of the network layer software that ran on these IMPs doesn't sound much like IP at all. It was connection-oriented, for one thing, and handled error correction. It was very East-Coast anal-retentive stuff. ;-) Us Bostonians aren't that bad, are we? The software that evolved into TCP/IP was a West-Coast hippy-dippy geeky phenomenon. Is UDP a west-coast thing? UCLA, SRI, UC Santa Barbara, USC, and University of Utah graduate students and researchers worked on it. Originally they had to make sure their software interoperated with the IMPs of the ARPANET. They developed a protocol called the Network Control Protocol (NCP) that worked on the end devices that communicated with the IMPs. It was a host-to-host protocol that could be considered a predecessor to TCP. NCP worked only with ARPANET. By 1973 or so, ARPANET wasn't the only game in town though. There was packet radio (which evolved into Ethernet), SATNET, and others. A more general-purpose protocol was needed. Vint Cerf who was with UCLA at the time and Bob Kahn, who had been at BBN but now worked for ARPA directly, worked on a new protocol called Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that was general-purpose. They made the assumption that the underlying network was unreliable. The new protocol shifted the job of reliability from the network to the destination hosts. Originally TCP handled the routing of packets also. TCP had jobs that we would today assign to the network and transport layers. And finally, in 1978, we come to the birth of the Internet Protocol (IP). In 1978, the job of routing packets was broken away from TCP. TCP was given the task of breaking messages into packets, reassembling them at the other end, detecting errors, resending anything lost, and putting packets in the right order. IP was simply responsible for forwarding individual packets. The specifications for how this should work were written by Cerf at UCLA, and Postel and Cohen from the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute (ISI). In the early 1980s, the ARPANET got really congested and the National Science Foundation created its own network for the academic computer science community. It used TCP/IP and is sometimes considered the real forerunner of the Internet, although it probably could never have happened without the work that went into the ARPANET. ARPANET converted to TCP/IP in 1983. It also divided into MILNET and ARPANET. It had connectivity with all the other networks by then. Later it got decommissioned. By 1989, it was gone, but its legacy lived on. May it RIP. ;-) Here's a recommendation for a terrific book about the history of the Internet: Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet by Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon. I'll definitely read that book, as I love that kind of stuff. Priscilla , and maybe TCP/IP was derived from these early protocls, but to say the the DoD, or BBN or anyone other than the Internet community wrote TCP and IP would be incorrect, right? I seem to remember that IP was used in ArpaNet,
