Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Well said! Dennis wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The Cisco Career Certifications Agreement (Mark usage guidelines) states (among a lot of other things)... You may only use the mark for the highest level of certification you have received. BUT, before you all decide that this means you should put CCIE only, the career certifications they are talking about are CCNA, CCDA, CCNP and CCDP. Not CCIE. Don't forget that the CCIE has been around a lot longer than the CCNP/DP etc. The CCNP/DP are not prerequisites for the CCIE, and although there is an awful lot of overlap in the material, the CCIE isn't really just an extra step up (particularly from the CCDP). My opinion would be that you should NOT put CCNA, CCNP or CCDA, CCDP - that happens to be against the marks agreement, and anyway it's redundant (except perhaps for HR scanning purposes). But CCIE, CCNP, CCDP? Sure. They are different certs, and one doesn't imply the other. JMcL -- Forwarded by Jenny Mcleod/NSO/CSDA on 04/07/2001 08:59 am --- Kevin Wigle @groupstudy.com on 04/07/2001 12:05:30 am Please respond to Kevin Wigle Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I've had this discussion before in the NOS world, MCSE/MCP - CBE/CBS - CNE/CNA. and the greatest reason for using both is that HR often don't know how certs are achieved or their order. Therefore, to allow HR people to catch the keyword they're looking for, both junior/senior certs are often listed. Now, on a business card - I only use the senior initials, but on a resume - that's HR stuff again. On an email list where supposedly everybody is clued into the cert tracks (imagine a name like groupstudy) then I think I would also only use the senior initials. But personal taste takes it in the end. Some people could presume that their posts on this list as a legitimate form of advertising their abilities - again a HR thing. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that! BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a higher level certification during that time... Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to do... Cheers and good luck! Dennis very large snip to shorten up individual posts Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=1t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Remember that the mark agreement used the word 'May' so if I decide to put say CCNA, CCDA, CCDP, CCNP+voice, CCNP+security, etc I have not gone against the agreement, cos I rest on the strenght of the word 'MAY' It is true that these look redundant but many HR would prefer that to someone that just put CCNP, CCDP. The guy who did this exams want a return in terms of good jobs, etc, so putting all these will fetch him the desired job, no harm. There was a trend in this group where someone said he attended a job fair with his friend, he has his CCNP and his friend have CCNA. To follow the rules he only put CCNP in his resume. Many employers were in favour of his friend's CCNA cos, according to him, they said 'They are not doing CCNP stuffs' but have a lot to do with CCNA in their company. Out there many HR knows just two cisco certifications ie CCNA and CCIE. Until Cisco or whoever completely educate all the HRs and many others, it is better to play safe. Regards. Oletu. - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Well said! Dennis wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... The Cisco Career Certifications Agreement (Mark usage guidelines) states (among a lot of other things)... You may only use the mark for the highest level of certification you have received. BUT, before you all decide that this means you should put CCIE only, the career certifications they are talking about are CCNA, CCDA, CCNP and CCDP. Not CCIE. Don't forget that the CCIE has been around a lot longer than the CCNP/DP etc. The CCNP/DP are not prerequisites for the CCIE, and although there is an awful lot of overlap in the material, the CCIE isn't really just an extra step up (particularly from the CCDP). My opinion would be that you should NOT put CCNA, CCNP or CCDA, CCDP - that happens to be against the marks agreement, and anyway it's redundant (except perhaps for HR scanning purposes). But CCIE, CCNP, CCDP? Sure. They are different certs, and one doesn't imply the other. JMcL -- Forwarded by Jenny Mcleod/NSO/CSDA on 04/07/2001 08:59 am --- Kevin Wigle @groupstudy.com on 04/07/2001 12:05:30 am Please respond to Kevin Wigle Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I've had this discussion before in the NOS world, MCSE/MCP - CBE/CBS - CNE/CNA. and the greatest reason for using both is that HR often don't know how certs are achieved or their order. Therefore, to allow HR people to catch the keyword they're looking for, both junior/senior certs are often listed. Now, on a business card - I only use the senior initials, but on a resume - that's HR stuff again. On an email list where supposedly everybody is clued into the cert tracks (imagine a name like groupstudy) then I think I would also only use the senior initials. But personal taste takes it in the end. Some people could presume that their posts on this list as a legitimate form of advertising their abilities - again a HR thing. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that! BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a higher level certification during that time... Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to do... Cheers and good luck! Dennis very large snip to shorten up individual posts Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=11120t=10599 -- FAQ, list
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that! BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a higher level certification during that time... Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to do... Cheers and good luck! Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Let's say that not every CCIE get all these certs. Moreover, being certified CCIE doesn't prevent me from recertifying CCNP and CCDP every 3 years as far as I know ;-( Cheers, Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- hal9001 wrote: Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and in this consumer orientated society unless you advertise your wares you will end up at the bottom of the pile! Karl - Bottom of the Pile! - Original Message - From: William Gragido To: 'hal9001' ; Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I think that Claude has every right to put them there if he so desires seeing as they are different certifications and he earned them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of hal9001 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a scienc
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I've had this discussion before in the NOS world, MCSE/MCP - CBE/CBS - CNE/CNA. and the greatest reason for using both is that HR often don't know how certs are achieved or their order. Therefore, to allow HR people to catch the keyword they're looking for, both junior/senior certs are often listed. Now, on a business card - I only use the senior initials, but on a resume - that's HR stuff again. On an email list where supposedly everybody is clued into the cert tracks (imagine a name like groupstudy) then I think I would also only use the senior initials. But personal taste takes it in the end. Some people could presume that their posts on this list as a legitimate form of advertising their abilities - again a HR thing. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that! BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a higher level certification during that time... Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to do... Cheers and good luck! Dennis very large snip to shorten up individual posts Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=10804t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I, basically, agree with Kevin except for this. You are required to be a MCP before a MCSE. Same goes for CBS before CBE and CNA before CNE. Now with Cisco all bets are off. The CCNA/P or CCDA/P are mutually independent from the CCIE (any flavor). It is redundant, but I feel if you went to the trouble and expense why not put ALL your Cisco certifications. Say someone was a CCIE RS, CCNA, CCNP, CCDA, CCDP, MCSE, CNE, and Checkpoint CCSA. On a business card, all of that will not fit and look right. For example, I would use: David L. Blair, CCIE, MCSE, CNE, CCSA. The TOP certification from each certification area. On the resume I would list them all. When I get my CCIE I plan to list all my certifications or least as many that will fit on one line of a business card. The number of certifications is also measure of where you have been and your tenure in the business. -- Through Complexity there is Simplicity, Through Simplicity there is Complexity David L. Blair - CCNP, CCNA, MCSE, CBE, A+, 3Wizard Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=10833t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
In my experience, certifications have been a great help. I'm a sharp guy that's been around networks for a while, but having that CCNP on the resume sure increases the amount of phone calls I get. Getting CCNA/CCDA/CCNP (and soon CCDP =) has made a DRASTIC difference in my life and career. Since getting the CCNA/CCNP I have more than DOUBLED my income in just over a year and a half because of the recognition and respect that the certs carry with them. I have even seen places that demand CCNP like they would a BS degree, turning down qualified candidates because they lack a piece of paper, which is a shame. However, I totally agree with the one poster who made the claim that a college degree is overrated because there are PLENTY of people who scrape through taking the easiest stuff they have to get a BS. I disagree with Louie's claim that employers ASSUME your green. In this day and age anyone from age 20-60 could be a recent college grad and be green in their field. On the flipside, someone who's 30 that's had a BS for 8 years and forgotten 80% of what they learned still gets the respect from employers for having that degree. As I mentioned before, too many people are Blinded by the BS (no pun intended) and will hire a total boob with a BS over someone who is actually infintely better qualified. I must stop before my head explodes. =) Mike W. NY50TT wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but I thought I'd see what would happen. Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications are still in demand in the market place? Do they still get you through the door in anything? I have been in the IT field for the better part of 8 years. This year, I will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I have a very short list of certifications which I rarely use in the network security and development position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not the largest IT shop in the world, and I am a little disoriented by what is seen as really important inside this organization. I have some level of respect for this organization because of it's sheer size and some of the industry giants and experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't seem that certification matters. All of the top tier architects, the Gods of the Gods are all undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor has it they are paid handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct survey of these rather humble people, and I find that they have just been around for forever and seem to know near everything, especially about the business aspect of things, but don't carry any certifications that some deem so important to get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they were forced to take the tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization, and would probably be considered lifers, meaning they would never leave the organization. So, as you may understand, seeing this every day, you might imagine why I am so disillusioned and pose this question. If I don't see certifications meaning anything inside the organization I'm part of right now, what do others see certifications worth in their world, their work, their area? Is the playing field different on the outside? Does organization size make the difference? Do certifications matter more in an organization of 50 , or in one with 50 thousand people? I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use my skills diffrently now than I did before. It used to matter that I could sit down on a bunch of routers or switches and configure (provision them when they are not ciscos) and make them do anything under the sun. Now that's considered a less valuable production type work, and the design,testing, project management, policy writting, and architecture work I do is for some reason considered more important than all that lesser, and once crucial production work? Now I spend my days testing and designing new infrastructres, and once my documentation and design is done and approved, people, they call them I.T. Specialists and Junior Network Architects sometimes getting paid a whole lot less (almost half less) go out there and actually implement it worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize things when they go wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but somehow I pictured that I would be touching more routers, not authoring documents of policy, design, and architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble adjusting, but I spent many long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it, all the time envisioning that I would be building and deploying networks, actually using this sh**, to make a living, but what ended up happening is that I use maybe 20% of that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I actually get paid for has almost nothing to do with any certification or education path) All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be geared torwards doing this type of
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
NO. Considering CCDP is the highest level design cert Cisco offers, I don't think it's tacky at all. For that matter, anyone who is CCIE and CCDP and doesn't put DP after the IE is a fool. Keep in mind CCIE is the highest level cert for SUPPORT, not design! Also, since people can get CCIE without having to do CCNP, it never hurts to show someone that you got the NP as well. Mike W. Dennis H wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I will say, however, that's it totally unneccary to put CCDA or NA when you've gotten DP or NP since you HAVE to have NA to get NP and you HAVE to have DA to get DP Some people just want a longer alphabet soup after their name.. Mike W. CCNP-VA, CCDA hehe William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I think that Claude has every right to put them there if he so desires seeing as they are different certifications and he earned them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of hal9001 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
If the issue is space, you could have something like [ see below] which fits on my business card ccn[ap], ccd[ap], ccs[ae] /bosire -- ___ +$;%+$;'+$;%+$;'+$;%+$;'+$;%+$;'+$;%+$;'+$;%+$ richard bosire ccn[ap], ccd[ap], ccs[ae] UUnet Africa http://www.uunet.co.ke David L. Blair wrote: With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I, basically, agree with Kevin except for this. You are required to be a MCP before a MCSE. Same goes for CBS before CBE and CNA before CNE. Now with Cisco all bets are off. The CCNA/P or CCDA/P are mutually independent from the CCIE (any flavor). It is redundant, but I feel if you went to the trouble and expense why not put ALL your Cisco certifications. Say someone was a CCIE RS, CCNA, CCNP, CCDA, CCDP, MCSE, CNE, and Checkpoint CCSA. On a business card, all of that will not fit and look right. For example, I would use: David L. Blair, CCIE, MCSE, CNE, CCSA. The TOP certification from each certification area. On the resume I would list them all. When I get my CCIE I plan to list all my certifications or least as many that will fit on one line of a business card. The number of certifications is also measure of where you have been and your tenure in the business. -- Through Complexity there is Simplicity, Through Simplicity there is Complexity David L. Blair - CCNP, CCNA, MCSE, CBE, A+, 3Wizard Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=10841t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
The Cisco Career Certifications Agreement (Mark usage guidelines) states (among a lot of other things)... You may only use the mark for the highest level of certification you have received. BUT, before you all decide that this means you should put CCIE only, the career certifications they are talking about are CCNA, CCDA, CCNP and CCDP. Not CCIE. Don't forget that the CCIE has been around a lot longer than the CCNP/DP etc. The CCNP/DP are not prerequisites for the CCIE, and although there is an awful lot of overlap in the material, the CCIE isn't really just an extra step up (particularly from the CCDP). My opinion would be that you should NOT put CCNA, CCNP or CCDA, CCDP - that happens to be against the marks agreement, and anyway it's redundant (except perhaps for HR scanning purposes). But CCIE, CCNP, CCDP? Sure. They are different certs, and one doesn't imply the other. JMcL -- Forwarded by Jenny Mcleod/NSO/CSDA on 04/07/2001 08:59 am --- Kevin Wigle @groupstudy.com on 04/07/2001 12:05:30 am Please respond to Kevin Wigle Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] With the death (or extended delay) of CCIE Design, I think that the CCDP is sufficiently different that it can/should be used alongside of CCIE. CCNP on the otherhand flows directly into CCIE RS. I've had this discussion before in the NOS world, MCSE/MCP - CBE/CBS - CNE/CNA. and the greatest reason for using both is that HR often don't know how certs are achieved or their order. Therefore, to allow HR people to catch the keyword they're looking for, both junior/senior certs are often listed. Now, on a business card - I only use the senior initials, but on a resume - that's HR stuff again. On an email list where supposedly everybody is clued into the cert tracks (imagine a name like groupstudy) then I think I would also only use the senior initials. But personal taste takes it in the end. Some people could presume that their posts on this list as a legitimate form of advertising their abilities - again a HR thing. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that! BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a higher level certification during that time... Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to do... Cheers and good luck! Dennis very large snip to shorten up individual posts Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=10933t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in the course of their study, they have substantially improved their knowledge of networking fundamentals and have developed a systematic and logical method of fixing problems. Now, some readers out there might take exception to the above paragraph and point out that there are some CCIE's who have developed more than a superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained their 4-digit-number just by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of course I'm sure that has happened. Yet the same thing also happens with the college degree, but you hardly ever hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody college graduate has a story about somebody they knew who was admitted just because he could play a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or something like that. Then that person deliberately searched for and enrolled in the easiest possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible coursework (have you ever noticed how Division 1 college football and basketball players always seem to major in things like mass communications or hotel management?). But they graduate just like everybody else. And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of people complain incessantly about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I know CCIE's who aren't just sitting on their duffs collecting a paycheck - they're still designing, troubleshooting, configuring, and doing exactly what they did before they received their certifications (the folks in the Cisco TAC for example, and Cisco SE's, and reseller SE's, and Lucent NetCare engineeers, and engineers at other large IT consulting shops, etc.). CCIE doesn't make one a god. It makes one a CCIE. The main difference between the Bachelors Degree and the various trade certifications is that receiving a college degree, most employers ASSUME that the employee is green, but has developed both the work ethic (usually developed from 4 or more years of disciplined self-motivated study). The various trade certifications, if I were an employer, would ASSUME that the applicant has achieved the certification based on a combination of study and work experience in that specific certification area. An observation that I'll make on this entire certification process - some of us use it as a means to demonstrate the knowledge that we have and become recognized for it. Others of us use it as a stepping stone or tool to get a better position (or a position period) within the industry. I see value in both approaches. ANYTHING that adds knowledgeable people to our (sometimes clueless) industry is greatly appreciated. (As an aside, an MCSE that I work with, who is now a Unix sysadmin, completed his CCNA exam on Friday in 25 minutes, and passed. My kudos to him) -e- - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:20 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in the course of their study, they have substantially improved their knowledge of networking fundamentals and have developed a systematic and logical method of fixing problems. Now, some readers out there might take exception to the above paragraph and point out that there are some CCIE's who have developed more than a superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained their 4-digit-number just by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of course I'm sure that has happened. Yet the same thing also happens with the college degree, but you hardly ever hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody college graduate has a story about somebody they knew who was admitted just because he could play a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or something like that.
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Thank You Claude Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=10622t=10599 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Well for me they have been worth aquiring but I will stick with CCNP and CCDP. What I am concentrating on is cross certifications. I dont have 10 years experience like our God of networks at work who happens to have no certs and damm sure doesnt need them, but it helped me get recognition for being up to speed and keeping my employer on its toes regarding salary and position. They simply did not want to lose me and knew with the certs and experience that someone would pick me up quickly should I decide to bail. That issue has been nipped in the bud. By cross certifying in Marconi, Juniper and or Foundry products I will appear more of an assett because many of the sweeter jobs out there that I have seen in texas like it if you have more broad experience. Cisco knowledge is just one in a list. So there is my .2 Cheers! ---Original Message--- From: NY50TT Date: Monday, July 02, 2001 01:52:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but I thought I'd see what would happen. Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications are still in demand in the market place? Do they still get you through the door in anything? I have been in the IT field for the better part of 8 years. This year, I will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I have a very short list of certifications which I rarely use in the network security and development position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not the largest IT shop in the world, and I am a little disoriented by what is seen as really important inside this organization. I have some level of respect for this organization because of it's sheer size and some of the industry giants and experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't seem that certification matters. All of the top tier architects, the Gods of the Gods are all undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor has it they are paid handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct survey of these rather humble people, and I find that they have just been around for forever and seem to know near everything, especially about the business aspect of things, but don't carry any certifications that some deem so important to get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they were forced to take the tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization, and would probably be considered lifers, meaning they would never leave the organization. So, as you may understand, seeing this every day, you might imagine why I am so disillusioned and pose this question. If I don't see certifications meaning anything inside the organization I'm part of right now, what do others see certifications worth in their world, their work, their area? Is the playing field different on the outside? Does organization size make the difference? Do certifications matter more in an organization of 50 , or in one with 50 thousand people? I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use my skills diffrently now than I did before. It used to matter that I could sit down on a bunch of routers or switches and configure (provision them when they are not ciscos) and make them do anything under the sun. Now that's considered a less valuable production type work, and the design,testing, project management, policy writting, and architecture work I do is for some reason considered more important than all that lesser, and once crucial production work? Now I spend my days testing and designing new infrastructres, and once my documentation and design is done and approved, people, they call them I.T. Specialists and Junior Network Architects sometimes getting paid a whole lot less (almost half less) go out there and actually implement it worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize things when they go wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but somehow I pictured that I would be touching more routers, not authoring documents of policy, design, and architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble adjusting, but I spent many long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it, all the time envisioning that I would be building and deploying networks, actually using this sh**, to make a living, but what ended up happening is that I use maybe 20% of that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I actually get paid for has almost nothing to do with any certification or education path) All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be geared torwards doing this type of production work, do CCIE's really use those skills in production once they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a router anymore? Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally know, he's the CIO at the site for the organization that I work for. He approves security policy for the entire organization world wide, but it's probably been a long time since he has even had to touch a router, switch, or firewall. (that's the job of people like me, we go out, test the latest and greatest, create proposals, and them
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in the course of their study, they have substantially improved their knowledge of networking fundamentals and have developed a systematic and logical method of fixing problems. Now, some readers out there might take exception to the above paragraph and point out that there are some CCIE's who have developed more than a superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained their 4-digit-number just by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in the course of their study, they have substantially improved their knowledge of networking fundamentals and have developed a sy
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career. Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role. CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces and while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150 words-per-minute. Rather they are prized
RE: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I think that Claude has every right to put them there if he so desires seeing as they are different certifications and he earned them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of hal9001 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter per se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that is the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories of Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important, rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts that is the real prize.In short, you college grads are hired not for the precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have demonstrated enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever skills they need for their career.
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Let's say that not every CCIE get all these certs. Moreover, being certified CCIE doesn't prevent me from recertifying CCNP and CCDP every 3 years as far as I know ;-( Cheers, Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- hal9001 wrote: Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and in this consumer orientated society unless you advertise your wares you will end up at the bottom of the pile! Karl - Bottom of the Pile! - Original Message - From: William Gragido To: 'hal9001' ; Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] I think that Claude has every right to put them there if he so desires seeing as they are different certifications and he earned them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of hal9001 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real hit with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they get all choked up about him. Karl - Original Message - From: Dennis H To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599] Claude, Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no? Dennis Claude-Vincent wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into a position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and hard about this phenomena. OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a tangent, but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of industry certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the CCIE. But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be flamers, hear me out. Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why of the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application. If you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory. But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring those who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of Elizabeth vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in their day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves and calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do they really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes? Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress, what make the
