Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
Hi, Am 19.12.2010 um 08:30 schrieb Sunil S Nandihalli: > Hello everybody, > It would be nice if calling recur inside a defmethod redispatched on the new > arguments.. I have shown a simple use-case in the following gist. > https://gist.github.com/747171 > > It might be naive .. but I feel IMHO that this should be the default > behaviour and not have any performance issues related to it.. recur is a simple goto to the enclosing loop or method. It cannot cross the enclosing method borders. So it also can't redispatch. You'd need recur to know, that it is in a mutlimethod and that there is no enclosing loop and then it to behave differently in that case. The method itself is just a plain clojure function. If you need to re-dispatch you have to use true recursion and call the multimethod again by name. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Error Handling for Callback API to Blocking API example in Joy of Clojure
In Joy of Clojure, there is a callback API to blocking API example in the section on promises. Chouser outlines it a briefly in a discussion on Promise/Deliver use cases here - http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b1548aa40ba8072/210ec81bfe26032e?lnk=gst&q=promise#210ec81bfe26032e: I've used them to convert a callback-based (continuation-passing style, if you will) API into a blocking one. The lib I was using provides something you can call like: (rpc-call destination method-args done) Where 'done' is a function that gets called with the results of the remote procedure call. But I want to write a function that does rpc but *returns* the result, so... (let [p (promise)] (rpc-call destination method-args #(deliver p %)) @p) This will work just fine whether rpc-call calls 'done' synchronously, or if it returns right away and 'done' is called by some other thread later. --Chouser This is very neat. Is this robust as is or would you need to add code to handle error cases such as an unavailable rpc server, rpc server never returning, an error trying to make the rpc call, etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Dispatch on return type?
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:21 AM, Tim Daly wrote: > Axiom, a computer algebra system I maintain, > can dispatch on return type. I am looking at > the things Clojure can do that might support > the Spad language (the mathematical language > in Axiom). I could not find a way to adjust > the multimethod to dispatch on return type. > > There is no static typing in Clojure. So the notion of return type do not really exists. Meikel's solution seems the simplest. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Dispatch on return type?
Hi, Am 19.12.2010 um 11:36 schrieb nicolas.o...@gmail.com: > There is no static typing in Clojure. So the notion of return type do > not really exists. Yes. The type system of eg. Haskell or OCaml is another layer of information, which you don't have in Clojure. On the other, it's another bad conscience you have to satisfy. This you don't have to do in Clojure, which can makes things easier at times. There is always a trade-off. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Dispatch on return type?
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > Hi, > > Am 19.12.2010 um 11:36 schrieb nicolas.o...@gmail.com: > >> There is no static typing in Clojure. So the notion of return type do >> not really exists. > > Yes. The type system of eg. Haskell or OCaml is another layer of information, > which you don't have in Clojure. On the other, it's another bad conscience > you have to satisfy. This you don't have to do in Clojure, which can makes > things easier at times. There is always a trade-off. I agree. Some program that makes perfect sense cannot be typed in a ML-like type system. But without extra-type information, it is difficult to dispatch on the return type, as would be possible with type classes in Haskell, for example. However, if you have a specific DSL, as in the present case, you might be able to write your own type inference at the macro level and annotate term with their return type to dispatch, using Meikel's idea, at runtime. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
thanks Meikel for your clarification.. I used to think loop recur almost removed the need for TCO .. but here is a case where true TCO could be really helpfull.. Sunil. On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > Hi, > > Am 19.12.2010 um 08:30 schrieb Sunil S Nandihalli: > > > Hello everybody, > > It would be nice if calling recur inside a defmethod redispatched on the > new arguments.. I have shown a simple use-case in the following gist. > > https://gist.github.com/747171 > > > > It might be naive .. but I feel IMHO that this should be the default > behaviour and not have any performance issues related to it.. > > recur is a simple goto to the enclosing loop or method. It cannot cross the > enclosing method borders. So it also can't redispatch. You'd need recur to > know, that it is in a mutlimethod and that there is no enclosing loop and > then it to behave differently in that case. The method itself is just a > plain clojure function. > > If you need to re-dispatch you have to use true recursion and call the > multimethod again by name. > > Sincerely > Meikel > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Sunil S Nandihalli wrote: > thanks Meikel for your clarification.. I used to think loop recur almost > removed the need for TCO .. but here is a case where true TCO could be > really helpfull.. If we had a (resolve-method multi & args) that resolved dispatch and then returned a fn that would call the method with those same args -- so ((resolve-method multi & args)) <=> (multi & args) -- then this could be used with trampoline in cases like Sunil is describing. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
Hi, Am 19.12.2010 um 16:46 schrieb Ken Wesson: > If we had a (resolve-method multi & args) that resolved dispatch and > then returned a fn that would call the method with those same args -- > so ((resolve-method multi & args)) <=> (multi & args) -- then this > could be used with trampoline in cases like Sunil is describing. It's called get-method. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
"classic" clojure-contrib 1.3.0-alpha4 released
Description of current plans for future releases is at http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Common+Contrib+Build -Stuart Sierra clojure.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: currying in clojure for fixed number of arg functions
What do people think about extending the definition of partial in core to work on just a single argument? That is, if you call partial with just a function and no arguments, it just returns the function. It seems to follow logically from the other airties. For a case where this is useful, see https://gist.github.com/746185 Sincerely, --Robert McIntyre On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Benny Tsai wrote: > This is very cool! > > Taken together with the following projects, Clojure now has some of > the nicest parts of Haskell/ML, IMHO :) > > Matchure (pattern matching): > http://spin.atomicobject.com/2010/04/25/matchure-serious-clojure-pattern-matching > > Algebraic Data Types: > http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/types-api.html > > On Dec 17, 7:00 pm, Sunil S Nandihalli > wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Sunil S Nandihalli < >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> sunil.nandiha...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hi Eric, >> > I do know about partial. But what I am saying is that the extra function, >> > partial, is not necessary if the function was created with >> > def-curry-fn... The function automatically returns a curried version >> > when called with fewer number of arguments than necessary like it >> > happens in haskell.. >> > thanks, >> > Sunil. >> >> > On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:02 AM, Eric Schulte >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Sunil, >> >> >> This is already possible using `partial' function in clojure core, which >> >> also works for variable arity functions, e.g. >> >> >> (map (partial reduce +) [[1 2 3 4] [5 6 7 8]]) >> >> >> Best -- Eric >> >> >> Sunil S Nandihalli writes: >> >> >> > Hello everybody, >> >> > I remember that the key reasoning for not supporting currying in >> >> clojure >> >> > was to be able to have variable number of arg functions.. So, I just >> >> thought >> >> > a bit and realized that it should be possible to do that for fixed arity >> >> > functions .. and then wrote the following macro to define a curry-able >> >> > fixed-number-of-argument-function >> >> >> >https://gist.github.com/745654 >> >> > If the following was defined as >> >> (defn f [a b c d] >> (+ a b c d)) >> >> > > (def-curry-fn f [a b c d] >> >> > (+ a b c d)) >> >> >> > ((f 1) 2 3 4) => 10 >> >> > the above s-expression using partial would become ... >> >> ((partial f 1) 2 3 4) => 10 >> >> > > (((f 1 2) 3) 4) => 10 >> >> and ((partial (partial f 1 2) 3) 4) => 10 instead of (((f 1 2) 3) 4).. >> >> f 1) 2) 3) 4) => 10 >> would become >> ((partial (partial (partial f 1) 2) 3) 4) => 10 . >> >> I know there is no real practical utility .. .. it was just something I >> wrote for fun.. and thought of sharing it ... >> Sunil. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I just thought of sharing it with everybody. Would love to hear any >> >> > criticisms you may have. >> >> >> > Thanks for reading, >> >> > Sunil >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "Clojure" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >> >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> >> your first post. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> > >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >>http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Logos v0.2: or Life w/o Tail Call Optimization
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:06 PM, jim wrote: > David, > > I started looking at Logos tonight. Really nice. I like the way its > heading. Looking forward to using it. > > Jim Thanks! Next steps are: - disequality constraints - nominal logic - tabling Once those are in, I think that's a good foundation to pursue: - a Clojure type inferencer - syntax-rules / syntax-case If anyone's interested in helping out let me know :) David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
@Ken Wesson: do you mean something like this: https://gist.github.com/747571 My fists stab at this technique looks kinda ugly though... Is there a way to somehow embed the trampoline inside the recursive definition? Is there a way to get the actual dispatch function other than (.dispatchFn multimethod) ? --Robert McIntyre On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > Hi, > > Am 19.12.2010 um 16:46 schrieb Ken Wesson: > >> If we had a (resolve-method multi & args) that resolved dispatch and >> then returned a fn that would call the method with those same args -- >> so ((resolve-method multi & args)) <=> (multi & args) -- then this >> could be used with trampoline in cases like Sunil is describing. > > It's called get-method. > > Sincerely > Meikel > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: defmethod/defmulti should dispatch on the new arguments when we call the recur..?
Hi, Am 19.12.2010 um 19:35 schrieb Robert McIntyre: > @Ken Wesson: do you mean something like this: > https://gist.github.com/747571 Maybe I'm missing something, but why don't you just call the multimethod itself again in the trampoline fn? Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
clj-http timeouts
Does anyone know how to set connection or read timeouts for clj-http? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers around facts like homoiconicity, or the REPL, or the debate of Rich's redefinition of lisp primitives, etc. These are arguments about the paint on the palace. I have struggled with this question and I believe I found the answer that satisfies me that Clojure is a Lisp. The answer is that "getting Clojure" involves an "ah-hah!" moment. The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is this universal but personal event when you suddenly "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages. There is a distinct "before vs after" when you suddenly internalize the language and IT changes YOU. I recently felt that moment with Clojure. Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"? Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Tim Daly wrote: > The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is > this universal but personal event when you suddenly > "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages. I think it's true to some extent with most languages - particularly those that aren't mainstream (I'm working through Seven Languages right now and I think Io and Prolog fit right into the category you describe, and of course Clojure and Haskell because of their functional nature). But I will say that "Lisp" languages seem to 'stick' more than other languages: once someone "gets it", they seem to become a devoted "Lisper" for life... even if they use other languages for their day job. > I recently felt that moment with Clojure. > Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"? Not with Clojure, but probably with Lisp itself back in the early- / mid-80's which is when I first started using it seriously. I found the same with Prolog tho' (around the same time)... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clj-http timeouts
> Does anyone know how to set connection or read timeouts for clj-http? I didn't see anything in the API. clj-apache-http has that option though (setting http.socket.timeout parameter). HTH, -- Miki -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"? On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote: > There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about > whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers > around facts like homoiconicity, or the REPL, or the > debate of Rich's redefinition of lisp primitives, etc. > These are arguments about the paint on the palace. > > I have struggled with this question and I believe I found > the answer that satisfies me that Clojure is a Lisp. The > answer is that "getting Clojure" involves an "ah-hah!" > moment. > > The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is > this universal but personal event when you suddenly > "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages. > There is a distinct "before vs after" when you suddenly > internalize the language and IT changes YOU. > > I recently felt that moment with Clojure. > Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"? > > Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
"sha-wing"? :D On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:41 PM, javajosh wrote: > Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"? > > On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote: >> There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about >> whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers >> around facts like homoiconicity, or the REPL, or the >> debate of Rich's redefinition of lisp primitives, etc. >> These are arguments about the paint on the palace. >> >> I have struggled with this question and I believe I found >> the answer that satisfies me that Clojure is a Lisp. The >> answer is that "getting Clojure" involves an "ah-hah!" >> moment. >> >> The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is >> this universal but personal event when you suddenly >> "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages. >> There is a distinct "before vs after" when you suddenly >> internalize the language and IT changes YOU. >> >> I recently felt that moment with Clojure. >> Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"? >> >> Tim Daly > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: command line options parser
so i updated this to work with nested arguments which is what i really
wanted to use it for in the first place. i almost always end up
creating a map of config settings and this makes it easy for me to
override things from the CL.
regarding the getopt stuff, i kind of agree but dont particularly like
getopt and parsing the raw args into pairs seemed pretty easy so i
wasnt so bothered about reinventing that wheel...
Example:
(clargon args
(required ["-p" "--port"] #(Integer. %))
(optional ["--host" :default "localhost"])
(optional ["--verbose" :default true])
(optional ["--log-directory" :default "/some/path"])
(group "--server"
(optional ["-n" "--name"])
(optional ["-p" "--port"] #(Integer. %))
(group "--paths"
(optional ["--inbound" :default "/tmp/inbound"])
(optional ["--outbound" :default "/tmp/outbound"]
with args of:
'("-p" "8080"
"--no-verbose"
"--log-directory" "/tmp"
"--server--name" "localhost"
"--server--port" "9090"
"--server--paths--inbound" "/dev/null")
will produce a clojure map with the names picked out for you as keywords:
{:port 8080
:host "localhost"
:verbose false
:log-directory "/tmp"
:server {:name "localhost"
:port 9090
:paths {:inbound "/dev/null"
:outbound "/tmp/outbound"}}}
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Alan wrote:
> I confess I didn't notice the type-conversion stuff in clargon; my
> view is now basically the same as Miekel's: it's great to have these
> new features, but they should be on top of getopt, which parses
> excellently. In fact, I think I'll fork clargon and see if I can tweak
> it that way.
>
> On Dec 11, 1:32 am, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am 11.12.2010 um 09:53 schrieb Saul Hazledine:
>>
>> > I saw this and thought the opposite! I think it is a good thing that
>> > somebody has done a higher level argument parsing library.
>>
>> > As far as I know, getopt doesn't support type conversion, help text or
>> > field validation. Generally, higher level languages have better
>> > argument parsing libraries than the getopt style, Python for instance:
>> >http://docs.python.org/library/optparse.html
>>
>> This is completely orthogonal. Adding type conversion, help text or field
>> validation does not require the underlying parser to be re-implemented. One
>> can use getopt, commons-cli, with-command-line or jopt-simple and add things
>> on top for real added value.
>>
>> That said: I have no opinion about the posted code, because I haven't looked
>> at it, yet. Generally, I would prefer the above approach: use something
>> existing and add functionality on top. But then, I'm also guilty of
>> implementing a cli parser in Clojure myself.
>>
>> Sincerely
>> Meikel
>
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Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp. The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that language. On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote: > There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about > whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers > around facts like homoiconicity, or the REPL, or the > debate of Rich's redefinition of lisp primitives, etc. > These are arguments about the paint on the palace. > > I have struggled with this question and I believe I found > the answer that satisfies me that Clojure is a Lisp. The > answer is that "getting Clojure" involves an "ah-hah!" > moment. > > The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is > this universal but personal event when you suddenly > "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages. > There is a distinct "before vs after" when you suddenly > internalize the language and IT changes YOU. > > I recently felt that moment with Clojure. > Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"? > > Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote: > Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp. er, yeah, 2nd'd. totally. i mean, same for plenty of programming languages. and certainly not the same thing for everybody. ah-hahs are subjective. if i "get" lisp but never had an ah hah because it just always made sense, or whatever, then is it not a lisp? weird. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote: > Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp. > > The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more > obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that > language. Access to the parse tree. C source code is a valid string data structure in C, but you can't really do that much with it without a lot of parsing first. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 6:41 PM, javajosh wrote: Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"? The proper response is "moo". But I think there is a point where you "get" concepts like the distinction between values and identity which are fundamental. Whatever the event, it feels like whatever I write is best done in Clojure, which is the "after-the-event" internal change. It no longer feels like a struggle to learn the language but a thirst to learn more, deeper, and better. A soulful addiction. Unlike the dozens of other languages I have worked in over my career, Lisp has been the one language that truly changed the way I understood programming. Many people have mentioned the "ah hah!" moment when speaking about Lisp. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 7:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote: Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp. The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that language. I agree that you can't BE a lisp without homoiconicity. However, I was struggling with Clojure because it lacks nil-punning which I consider fundamental. I have self-debated a lot of the choices that Rich made. Now that I'm in "thirst for the language" mode I understand that nil-punning conflicts with lazy so I can accept the choice. Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have not found the "ah-hah!" in Haskell. In fact, until the "ah-hah!" moment occurred I didn't know that it was my working definition of Lisp. Tim Daly "Your enlightment may vary" :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Free Compojure Hosting? (or mostly free)
On Dec 18, 8:51 pm, javajosh wrote: > A little googling revealed that Google App Engine will work: App Engine very much works. Please use https://github.com/gcv/appengine-magic (and help me test the v0.4.0 branch, which adds support for the latest App Engine SDK). It's unfortunate that search results for "clojure app engine" turn up these outdated, half-broken blog posts instead of a working, up-to-date, and maintained library. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
I didn't mean to imply that other people don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with other languages. However, I have only had the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience with lisp. Your enlightenment might vary. Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought up the fact that OO languages get several things wrong. I watched that with a Java programmer and he was not able to understand the points Rich was making. He just saw it in terms of "value" objects, "function" objects, "identity" objects, and "state" objects. Sort of, "I've got an object hammer so everything is an object nail" approach. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > I didn't mean to imply that other people > don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with > other languages. However, I have only had > the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience > with lisp. > > Your enlightenment might vary. > > Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought > up the fact that OO languages get several > things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: I didn't mean to imply that other people don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with other languages. However, I have only had the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience with lisp. Your enlightenment might vary. Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought up the fact that OO languages get several things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
Tim Daly writes: > > Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based > systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows > currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have > not found the "ah-hah!" in Haskell. > Sounds interesting, could you share a pointer to this language, or is it not open? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 8:33 PM, Eric Schulte wrote: Tim Daly writes: Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have not found the "ah-hah!" in Haskell. Sounds interesting, could you share a pointer to this language, or is it not open? It is the algebra language in the Axiom project called Spad. http://axiom-developer.org It is open source -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > > > On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >>> >>> I didn't mean to imply that other people >>> don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with >>> other languages. However, I have only had >>> the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience >>> with lisp. >>> >>> Your enlightenment might vary. >>> >>> Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought >>> up the fact that OO languages get several >>> things wrong. >> >> Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? > > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey "Please install Flash Player". Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much futzing around, overkill. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: > Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and > HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple > bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; > a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much > futzing around, overkill. I don't think people normally create a precis of other people's talks - they just watch them. And this presentation is really good. Definitely worth your effort... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: I didn't mean to imply that other people don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with other languages. However, I have only had the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience with lisp. Your enlightenment might vary. Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought up the fact that OO languages get several things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey "Please install Flash Player". Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much futzing around, overkill. The points made by Rich in the video require context. Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly lossy. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > > > On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >>> >>> On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > > I didn't mean to imply that other people > don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with > other languages. However, I have only had > the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience > with lisp. > > Your enlightenment might vary. > > Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought > up the fact that OO languages get several > things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? >>> >>> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey >> >> "Please install Flash Player". >> >> Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and >> HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple >> bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; >> a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much >> futzing around, overkill. >> > The points made by Rich in the video require context. > Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would > be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly > lossy. Exactly why text is preferable to video for stuff that can be expressed in text. Your memory wouldn't matter -- you could link to the text. And Google could search inside it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: I didn't mean to imply that other people don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with other languages. However, I have only had the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience with lisp. Your enlightenment might vary. Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought up the fact that OO languages get several things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey "Please install Flash Player". Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much futzing around, overkill. The points made by Rich in the video require context. Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly lossy. Exactly why text is preferable to video for stuff that can be expressed in text. Your memory wouldn't matter -- you could link to the text. And Google could search inside it. This video is not just a list of broken things. It goes to the very philosophy behind the difference between values, identity, and state. The bullet point you seek is: * OO programs conflate value, state, and identity. That is the essence but I'm not sure you'll understand it without the video. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >>> >>> On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > > On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >>> >>> I didn't mean to imply that other people >>> don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with >>> other languages. However, I have only had >>> the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience >>> with lisp. >>> >>> Your enlightenment might vary. >>> >>> Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought >>> up the fact that OO languages get several >>> things wrong. >> >> Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? > > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey "Please install Flash Player". Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much futzing around, overkill. >>> The points made by Rich in the video require context. >>> Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would >>> be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly >>> lossy. >> >> Exactly why text is preferable to video for stuff that can be >> expressed in text. Your memory wouldn't matter -- you could link to >> the text. And Google could search inside it. > > This video is not just a list of broken things. It goes to the > very philosophy behind the difference between values, identity, > and state. The bullet point you seek is: > > * OO programs conflate value, state, and identity. > > That is the essence but I'm not sure you'll understand it > without the video. Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add an item to it, and boom! Clojure separates this stuff out because the Clojure vector's immutability makes its value stable given its identity. Refs and atoms and agents can encapsulate mutable state, but their identity (as defined by = and hash) is fixed rather than changing with its state. And some objects (keywords and symbols) exist to be almost pure identity, used to label other things. Something like that? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:24:42 -0500 Ken Wesson wrote: > On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > > > > > > On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I didn't mean to imply that other people > >>> don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with > >>> other languages. However, I have only had > >>> the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience > >>> with lisp. > >>> > >>> Your enlightenment might vary. > >>> > >>> Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought > >>> up the fact that OO languages get several > >>> things wrong. > >> > >> Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? > > > > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey > > "Please install Flash Player". > > Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and > HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple > bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; > a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much > futzing around, overkill. Let me second that - especially since flash isn't available for my normal mail platform, so the kludges required to run it make it even flakier than what Jobs objects to, and tends to hose performance there no end. Yes, somethings may best be presented on video, but all to often people try pass videos off as documentation (*). Even when video is actually the best choice, the least you could do is post something in an actual video format, and not as an executable for a poorly documented, proprietary VM that has had more than one security issue in the past. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote: On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: I didn't mean to imply that other people don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with other languages. However, I have only had the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience with lisp. Your enlightenment might vary. Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought up the fact that OO languages get several things wrong. Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey "Please install Flash Player". Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much futzing around, overkill. The points made by Rich in the video require context. Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly lossy. Exactly why text is preferable to video for stuff that can be expressed in text. Your memory wouldn't matter -- you could link to the text. And Google could search inside it. Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add an item to it, and boom! Clojure separates this stuff out because the Clojure vector's immutability makes its value stable given its identity. Refs and atoms and agents can encapsulate mutable state, but their identity (as defined by = and hash) is fixed rather than changing with its state. And some objects (keywords and symbols) exist to be almost pure identity, used to label other things. Something like that? Ummm. no. You're approaching the question in an OO mindset. There is no path from that starting point to Rich's insight. Rich spent the better part of an hour trying to explain the insights that he got from what must certainly be months of reading and thinking. I'm part way through the Whitehead book he mentioned (and the other book is on-order). That's some heavy reading he's been doing. I also downloaded the primary paper on Multiversion Concurrency Control. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.103.5778&rep=rep1&type=pdf And, no, I don't plan to summarize Whitehead or the MVCC paper :-) @mike, Yes, a video isn't "documentation". But the MVCC paper certainly is. Open source software doesn't seem to "do" documentation (which annoys me also since I'm a literate programming fanatic). Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
2010/12/20 Tim Daly > > > On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >> >>> On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly >> wrote: >> >>> On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > I didn't mean to imply that other people > don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with > other languages. However, I have only had > the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience > with lisp. > > Your enlightenment might vary. > > Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought > up the fact that OO languages get several > things wrong. > Out of curiosity, which "several things" were these? >>> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey >>> >> "Please install Flash Player". >> >> Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and >> HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple >> bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed; >> a multi-megabyte install of an executable and who knows how much >> futzing around, overkill. >> >> The points made by Rich in the video require context. > Besides, the only way I could make a bullet list would > be to listen to the video again. My memory is hopelessly > lossy. > Exactly why text is preferable to video for stuff that can be expressed in text. Your memory wouldn't matter -- you could link to the text. And Google could search inside it. >>> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable >> >> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the >> same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add >> an item to it, and boom! Clojure separates this stuff out because the >> Clojure vector's immutability makes its value stable given its >> identity. Refs and atoms and agents can encapsulate mutable state, but >> their identity (as defined by = and hash) is fixed rather than >> changing with its state. And some objects (keywords and symbols) exist >> to be almost pure identity, used to label other things. >> >> Something like that? >> >> Ummm. no. You're approaching the question in an OO mindset. > There is no path from that starting point to Rich's insight. > I disagree, it /is/ "something like that" : in clojure parlance : * a value is an immutable object (and beyond that, also a /persistent/ datastructure for performance reasons). Clojure datastructures are the classical building blocks for creating values. * an identity is represented by a "ref" in clojure : an ref, an atom, an agent. An identity is an object representing "something" which can have different values at different points in time. * a "state" is a pair "identity/value" at some point in time. Refs and atoms and agents can also be considered as values, and can be embedded in other refs. But then, the "value" you must consider is just their "identity", not their "changing over time" flux of values. All of this is pretty much the same as for relational databases. Once you get the technical id of a table row, you've a stable pointer for the identity of a concept. The values of the concept may change over time, though. And yes, languages which allow uncontrolled mutation of class instances fields generally will "conflate" those notions of identity and state, making it more difficult, for example, to write correct concurrent programs because it's much harder to work on a "consistent set" of the values of an object. Anyway, Ken, this video really is worth watching when you have the time to. > > Rich spent the better part of an hour trying to explain the > insights that he got from what must certainly be months of > reading and thinking. I'm part way through the Whitehead > book he mentioned (and the other book is on-order). That's > some heavy reading he's been doing. I also downloaded the > primary paper on Multiversion Concurrency Control. > > http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.103.5778&rep=rep1&type=pdf > > And, no, I don't plan to summarize Whitehead or the MVCC paper :-) > > @mike, Yes, a video isn't "documentation". But the MVCC paper > certainly is. Open source software doesn't seem to "do" documentation > (which annoys me also since I'm a literate programming fanatic). > > > Tim Daly > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > T
Native Clojure
Is there a natively compiled version of Clojure? Is there any plans to do so? Thanks -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Ah-hah! Clojure is a Lisp
Ken Wesson writes:
> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the
> same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add
> an item to it, and boom! Clojure separates this stuff out because the
> Clojure vector's immutability makes its value stable given its
> identity. Refs and atoms and agents can encapsulate mutable state, but
> their identity (as defined by = and hash) is fixed rather than
> changing with its state.
Sort of. Identity (in the Clojure model) is not the same concept as
equality. Nor is it reference equality ("identical?"). The overloading
of terminology is somewhat unfortunate.
"By identity I mean a stable logical entity associated with a series
of different values over time." -- clojure.org/state
As Laurent mentioned the usual identities in Clojure are reference
objects: vars, atoms, refs and so on.
> And some objects (keywords and symbols) exist
> to be almost pure identity, used to label other things.
Symbols and keywords (and database IDs) aren't identities, they're
identifiers (names).
"Note that by identities I don't mean names (I call my mother Mom,
but you wouldn't)." -- clojure.org/state
An identifier can be resolved in some sort of context to obtain an
identity, but it is not itself that identity.
If you wrote a program with a data model like this:
(def people {"Alice" (ref {:age 25}), "Bob" (ref {:age 17})})
Then the various objects would be:
name: a string like "Alice"
context: the people map
identity: a ref
value: the {:age XX} maps
In the vars and global environment model we have:
name: a symbol
context: a namespace
identity: a var
value: a number, list, vector, fn, string etc
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