Re: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[svpegasus38 via CnC-List]

Lee,My experience with stuff to make something last longer is nothing but snake 
oil. Works for a short time then failure. Being a mechanic, my saying has 
always been. Pay me now or PAY me more later. 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Rebecca Leah Lf39
 Original message From: Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/26/18  11:16  (GMT-08:00) To: CnC-List 
 Cc: Lee Youngblood  
Subject: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution? 
Hi All,

Any one used this Battery Equalizer solution?  
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html

Snake oil or useful?

Thanks, Lee
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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Back in 2013, one of the Florida Wildlife Nazis explained to me that Florida
law requires that, if your vessel is not registered in your home state (and
documentation doesn't count) it had to be registered in Florida. IIRC, the
grace period for getting it registered was 30 days in state. I found it
suspiciously coincidental that the Florida registration fee for an
out-of-state boat owned by a non-resident was $250, the same as the fine if
you got ticketed for using a non-registered boat. 

 

And, as I recall, if you have your boat in Florida for over 90 days you are
supposed to get it registered in Florida regardless of where you live (or
whether it is federally documented).

 

All that is why I got NC registration for Imzadi in July 2014 - as soon as
NC began allowing (actually REQUIRING) the registration of documented
vessels. On the plus side, 50% of the registration fees collected are
earmarked for dredging in coastal waters. I have to put the sticker (but no
numbers) on the starboard side of the bow (beginning in 2018 it is a sticker
on each side of the bow) since putting it on the mast or anywhere else on
the boat is against the rules - though the local DNR folks seem a bit hazy
on that issue.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dreuge
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:51 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

 

We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the sailboat
should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the owner that
he did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his home state)
but he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in FL.

 

With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many
documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a
hand full in the state. 

 

 

-
Paul E.

1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

 

 

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Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

No luck :(

The CP180 will NOT take data into port 1 or 2 no matter what. To make matters 
worse, the cabling goes through the pedestal and winds all over to the chart 
table. Taking the splice apart would be a project.

I think I am going to cough up the $18.00 and get another data cable to test 
with. 

Someone asked about the WiFi link – here you go:

http://www.yakbitz.com/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NMEA-to-WiFi-BRIDGE/182598371832?hash=item2a83b609f8:g:Ab8AAOSwqfNXlsfL
 

 =mtr

 

Prices went up a bit, but still a deal. Mine works great. I can see AIS on my 
iPhone and iPad with this just fine :) Also I can bring any extra laptops from 
home and get the data there too.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 11:57 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Subject: Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

 

Joe,

 

Glad you are making progress!  I keep forgetting to test out my WiFi module on 
my AIS.  I know it is transmitting, but the app to display AIS is on the iPad 
which usually stays in the house.  My Navionics app on my phone does not show 
AIS.

 

How old is the antenna cable?

 

Joel

 

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
 > wrote:

Things are coming along with a snag or two. Wouldn’t be a boat otherwise.

Thing one is I cannot get the CP180 to display AIS targets. It is driving me 
nuts. It even went back to S-H and that didn’t help. More to come, I got a 
diagnostic mode setup from them to try.

The other thing is out of my 3 VHF antennas, the AIS only likes the masthead 
one. The other two report back as bad antennas. They have been on there a long 
time, maybe they are. Need to get a meter on those things.

On the good news side the $30 or so Wifi link works GREAT. My iPhone and IPad 
both show all the data over the wifi and I can see AIS targets on both :) That 
thing is the deal of the century.

 

Joe

Coquina

C 35 MK I


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-- 

Joel 
301 541 8551

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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I love Flair-It!  Not sure they work on copper...

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Jan 26, 2018 4:50 PM, "Paul E via CnC-List" 
wrote:

Another choice for connectors are Flair-It connectors.   They are
inexpensive, require no special tools, and easy to work with.I
purchased these connectors at an Ace Hardware store.

Take a look the write up on replacing the plumbing on my LF38.

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/search/label/PressurizedWater

-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

On Jan 26, 2018, at 3:09 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 19:46:25 +
From: T power 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
Subject: Stus-List Plumbing help
Message-ID:


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Hello everyone:
I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water tank
underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe protruding from
the tank, originally it had a hose attached to it that would lead to the
pump and the faucets. I would like to change out the hose to PEX tubing,
but I cannot figure out what size pex fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm
1/2 inch with no success. Has anyone ever tried this or have any
suggestions on what to do.
Any help is greatly appreciate it.

Cheers
Tom



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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

One time I was way down at the southern end of the Grenadines, off Petit St. 
Vincent, and I saw this beautiful navy blue Hylas 60 whose hailing port was 
Telluride, CO :)  What a strange thing that was.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I friend of mine kept a Hylas for a time on the East Coast.  He was a 
> Colorado resident but took delivery of the vessel in Florida and the vessel’s 
> hailing port was Port Townsend, WA where his company was located.  Within 90 
> days after delivery he needed to move the boat from Ft Lauderdale or risk 
> owing Fl sales tax on the boat.  It also needed to head north for seasonal 
> hurricane insurance reasons.  About every 3-4 months, he would jockey the 
> boat from one location to another to keep from establishing a tax liability 
> or registration fees in various states.  I suspect the tax bill on such a 
> yacht would be substantial but far less of a hassle compared to having the 
> boat seized for non-payment of taxes.  Maybe having the vessel flagged in a 
> state with no sales tax allowed him to dodge that bullet.
> Chuck Gilchrest 
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 35 LF
> Padanaram,MA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:50 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
>> We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the sailboat 
>> should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the owner that 
>> he did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his home state) 
>> but he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in FL.
>> 
>> With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many 
>> documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a 
>> hand full in the state. 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Paul E.
>> 1981 C 38 Landfall 
>> S/V Johanna Rose
>> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>> 
>> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/ 
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:44 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List > wrote:
 
 I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one 
 hand !
 
 
 Bill
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> 
>> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[Danny Haughey via CnC-List]

you can also get Copper Tube x Pex Barb fittings and use the pex 
clamps.  It's a smaller, cleaner fitting in my opinon.


I'm about to switch my whole boat over to pex for the water supply

Danny


On 1/26/2018 4:49 PM, Paul E via CnC-List wrote:
Another choice for connectors are Flair-It connectors.   They are 
inexpensive, require no special tools, and easy to work with.    I 
purchased these connectors at an Ace Hardware store.


Take a look the write up on replacing the plumbing on my LF38.

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/search/label/PressurizedWater

-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

On Jan 26, 2018, at 3:09 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:


Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 19:46:25 +
From: T power >
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com " 
>

Subject: Stus-List Plumbing help
Message-ID:
>


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello everyone:
I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water 
tank underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe 
protruding from the tank, originally it had a hose attached to it 
that would lead to the pump and the faucets. I would like to change 
out the hose to PEX tubing, but I cannot figure out what size pex 
fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm 1/2 inch with no success. Has 
anyone ever tried this or have any suggestions on what to do.

Any help is greatly appreciate it.

Cheers
Tom




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to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



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Re: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[BillBinaList via CnC-List]

Yeah, I wouldn't bother. Any possible improvement will be slight, and 
short-lived. I sure wouldn't pay $24! =-O


Bill Bina


On 1/26/2018 4:26 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:
I had some old beat up batteries from a back which had reached its end 
of life.  2 were straight bad and the third was taking and holding a 
charge but low amp-hr capacity.  I decided to try the epson salt on 
all of them.  It had no positive effect on any of the batteries 
whatsoever.


Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 2:58 PM Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List 
> wrote:


The price is outrageous for what it contains. This will help an
old dying battery serve for a little while longer, but it will not
really "renew" it. You can do the same thing with very cheap Epsom
Salt from the drug store. If you battery needs this, you are at a
pont where you should be pricing a new battery.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/additives

Bill Bina


On 1/26/2018 2:16 PM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List wrote:

Hi All,

Any one used this Battery Equalizer 
solution?https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html

Snake oil or useful?

Thanks, Lee





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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[Paul E via CnC-List]

Another choice for connectors are Flair-It connectors.   They are inexpensive, 
require no special tools, and easy to work with.I purchased these 
connectors at an Ace Hardware store.

Take a look the write up on replacing the plumbing on my LF38.

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/search/label/PressurizedWater 


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 3:09 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 19:46:25 +
> From: T power >
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com " 
> >
> Subject: Stus-List Plumbing help
> Message-ID:
>   
>   
> >
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hello everyone:
> I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water tank 
> underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe protruding from 
> the tank, originally it had a hose attached to it that would lead to the pump 
> and the faucets. I would like to change out the hose to PEX tubing, but I 
> cannot figure out what size pex fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm 1/2 
> inch with no success. Has anyone ever tried this or have any suggestions on 
> what to do.
> Any help is greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Cheers
> Tom

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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[schiller via CnC-List]

Fred,

I agree.  That is why I renewed the documentation on Corsair when 
Michigan declared the use of number boards no longer met the 
registration number display requirements.  I also did display my 
Michigan Registration sticker (separate decal from reg numbers) on the 
mast (each side).


Michigan is clear that you don't need to display the reg numbers on a 
documented boat.


Neil Schiller
1983 C 35-3, #028
"Grace"
White Lake Michigan
WLYC

On 1/26/2018 1:38 PM, Frederick G Street wrote:
I’m aware that I have to register in the state, and have faithfully 
done so since I bought my first sailboat up on Lake Superior.  But the 
whole argument of displaying registration numbers on a documented 
vessel is something that I don’t think is legal for a state to 
require, as it would (as I understand it) then supersede the federal 
law on the subject.  I display a state registration sticker on the 
upper corner of the transom as required by Wisconsin state law, but I 
will not put state registration numbers on the bow; and I don’t think 
Wisconsin can require me to do so.


— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:30 PM, schiller > wrote:


Fred,

I think that if you kept your boat only on the waters of the Great 
Lakes, you could get away without state registration.  As soon as you 
put into port however, you just entered State controlled waterways.  
I guess you could anchor offshore and go into port with a registered 
dingy but that might be iffy.


Michigan State boundaries go all the way to mid lake on Lake Michigan 
but the federal jurisdiction may end at the shoreline.  Not sure on that.


Neil Schiller
1983 C 35-3, #028
"Grace"
White Lake Michigan
WLYC




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Re: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I had some old beat up batteries from a back which had reached its end of
life.  2 were straight bad and the third was taking and holding a charge
but low amp-hr capacity.  I decided to try the epson salt on all of them.
It had no positive effect on any of the batteries whatsoever.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 2:58 PM Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> The price is outrageous for what it contains. This will help an old dying
> battery serve for a little while longer, but it will not really "renew" it.
> You can do the same thing with very cheap Epsom Salt from the drug store.
> If you battery needs this, you are at a pont where you should be pricing a
> new battery.
>
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/additives
>
> Bill Bina
>
> On 1/26/2018 2:16 PM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Any one used this Battery Equalizer solution?  
> https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html
>
> Snake oil or useful?
>
> Thanks, Lee
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[David Miles via CnC-List]

I have used these in the garden for water lines, and they will pop off when 
exposed to hard weather. Beware, and be sure to get good ones. My son is a 
plumber and swears by them, but his must have been  a better quality than the 
ones I bought.



Best regards,

David Miles



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Marek 
Dziedzic via CnC-List
Sent: January-26-18 12:09 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Marek Dziedzic
Subject: Re: Stus-List Plumbing help



Lowe’s has a competitive fittings (the same principle, lower cost), as well. I 
don’t recall the name, but they work as well.



Marek



From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 14:55

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com

Cc: Joel Aronson

Subject: Re: Stus-List Plumbing help



Look at the sharkbite fittings.  They seem to work on everything.  Any Home 
Depot/Lowes/hardware store should have them



Joel





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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

Lowe’s has a competitive fittings (the same principle, lower cost), as well. I 
don’t recall the name, but they work as well.

Marek

From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 14:55
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Joel Aronson
Subject: Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

Look at the sharkbite fittings.  They seem to work on everything.  Any Home 
Depot/Lowes/hardware store should have them

Joel

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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

A second on Sharkbite.  I used them for the first time on a home plumbing 
project last weekend and they worked perfectly.  I had to disassemble some 
older fittings, which came apart easily even without the special tool 
(adjustable wrench trick on YouTube).  Cut Pex with hacksaw rather than special 
tool.  Re-assembly had no leaks at new or old sharkbite fitting.  Learned an 
important lesson from lots leaks at threaded PVC fittings.  Don’t use teflon 
tape on threaded fittings!  Use threadseal compound (Rectorseal).  Dave

Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Jan 26, 2018, at 2:54 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Look at the sharkbite fittings.  They seem to work on everything.  Any Home 
> Depot/Lowes/hardware store should have them
> 
> Joel
> 
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:46 PM, T power via CnC-List  > wrote:
> Hello everyone:
> I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water tank 
> underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe protruding from 
> the tank, originally it had a hose attached to it that would lead to the pump 
> and the faucets. I would like to change out the hose to PEX tubing, but I 
> cannot figure out what size pex fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm 1/2 
> inch with no success. Has anyone ever tried this or have any suggestions on 
> what to do. 
> Any help is greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Cheers
> Tom
> 
> Get Outlook for Android 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joel 
> 301 541 8551
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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Re: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List]

The price is outrageous for what it contains. This will help an old 
dying battery serve for a little while longer, but it will not really 
"renew" it. You can do the same thing with very cheap Epsom Salt from 
the drug store. If you battery needs this, you are at a pont where you 
should be pricing a new battery.


http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/additives

Bill Bina


On 1/26/2018 2:16 PM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List wrote:

Hi All,

Any one used this Battery Equalizer solution?  
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html

Snake oil or useful?

Thanks, Lee
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



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Re: Stus-List Plumbing help

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Look at the sharkbite fittings.  They seem to work on everything.  Any Home
Depot/Lowes/hardware store should have them

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:46 PM, T power via CnC-List  wrote:

> Hello everyone:
> I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water tank
> underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe protruding from
> the tank, originally it had a hose attached to it that would lead to the
> pump and the faucets. I would like to change out the hose to PEX tubing,
> but I cannot figure out what size pex fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm
> 1/2 inch with no success. Has anyone ever tried this or have any
> suggestions on what to do.
> Any help is greatly appreciate it.
>
> Cheers
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android 
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Stus-List Plumbing help

[T power via CnC-List]

Hello everyone:
I have a bit of an issue on my 1973 C 30 Mark 1. my forward water tank 
underneath the v-berth has two small pieces of copper pipe protruding from the 
tank, originally it had a hose attached to it that would lead to the pump and 
the faucets. I would like to change out the hose to PEX tubing, but I cannot 
figure out what size pex fitting to use. I have tried 3/8 15mm 1/2 inch with no 
success. Has anyone ever tried this or have any suggestions on what to do.
Any help is greatly appreciate it.

Cheers
Tom

Get Outlook for Android

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Re: Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

Recommend it for batteries you can top up deep cycle or starting. Not snake oil 
in my experience.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Any one used this Battery Equalizer solution?  
> https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html
> 
> Snake oil or useful?
> 
> Thanks, Lee
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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Stus-List Battery Equalizer Solution?

[Lee Youngblood via CnC-List]

Hi All,

Any one used this Battery Equalizer solution?  
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/BE12oz.html

Snake oil or useful?

Thanks, Lee
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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Link to the case:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16139861775048620606=search+%2B+boat=en_sdt=4,388_ylo=2014

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> There was a 1983 U.S. Supreme Court case that was Customs-related.  I
> attempted to send a pdf copy of the recent PA Superior Court case that
> summarizes PA and Federal law, but it got hung up due to size (about
> 150kb).  Perhaps Stu will cut it loose for the group.
>
> *From:* Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, January 26, 2018 1:38 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Andrew Burton 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.
>
> There was another one...in the 1970s, I think, when the CG prevailed I.
> Their desire to do searches anytime any place. A fellow named Kennedy (I
> think) took it to the Supreme Court.
> Andy
>
> Andrew Burton
> 61 W Narragansett
> Newport, RI
> USA02840
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
> +401 965-5260
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 13:09, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> AFAIK the USCG was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and won there on
> the ability to do searches for any reason they felt like back in the 1790s.
>
> An old complaint for sure!
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
> IANAL
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

There was a 1983 U.S. Supreme Court case that was Customs-related.  I attempted 
to send a pdf copy of the recent PA Superior Court case that summarizes PA and 
Federal law, but it got hung up due to size (about 150kb).  Perhaps Stu will 
cut it loose for the group.

From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 1:38 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Andrew Burton 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

There was another one...in the 1970s, I think, when the CG prevailed I. Their 
desire to do searches anytime any place. A fellow named Kennedy (I think) took 
it to the Supreme Court. 
Andy

Andrew Burton 
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ 
+401 965-5260

On Jan 26, 2018, at 13:09, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
 wrote:


  AFAIK the USCG was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and won there on 
the ability to do searches for any reason they felt like back in the 1790s.

  An old complaint for sure!

   

  Joe

  Coquina 

  IANAL

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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Lots of people travel from Florida to Georgia  quarterly for that reason.
Also, if your boat is listed with a Florida broker you can get a sticker
and avoid the tax.

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 1:43 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I friend of mine kept a Hylas for a time on the East Coast.  He was a
> Colorado resident but took delivery of the vessel in Florida and the
> vessel’s hailing port was Port Townsend, WA where his company was located.
> Within 90 days after delivery he needed to move the boat from Ft Lauderdale
> or risk owing Fl sales tax on the boat.  It also needed to head north for
> seasonal hurricane insurance reasons.  About every 3-4 months, he would
> jockey the boat from one location to another to keep from establishing a
> tax liability or registration fees in various states.  I suspect the tax
> bill on such a yacht would be substantial but far less of a hassle compared
> to having the boat seized for non-payment of taxes.  Maybe having the
> vessel flagged in a state with no sales tax allowed him to dodge that
> bullet.
> Chuck Gilchrest
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 35 LF
> Padanaram,MA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:50 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the
> sailboat should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the
> owner that he did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his
> home state) but he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in
> FL.
>
> With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many
> documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a
> hand full in the state.
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:44 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one
> hand !
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

I friend of mine kept a Hylas for a time on the East Coast.  He was a Colorado 
resident but took delivery of the vessel in Florida and the vessel’s hailing 
port was Port Townsend, WA where his company was located.  Within 90 days after 
delivery he needed to move the boat from Ft Lauderdale or risk owing Fl sales 
tax on the boat.  It also needed to head north for seasonal hurricane insurance 
reasons.  About every 3-4 months, he would jockey the boat from one location to 
another to keep from establishing a tax liability or registration fees in 
various states.  I suspect the tax bill on such a yacht would be substantial 
but far less of a hassle compared to having the boat seized for non-payment of 
taxes.  Maybe having the vessel flagged in a state with no sales tax allowed 
him to dodge that bullet.
Chuck Gilchrest 
S/V Half Magic
1983 35 LF
Padanaram,MA

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:50 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the sailboat 
> should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the owner that 
> he did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his home state) 
> but he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in FL.
> 
> With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many 
> documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a 
> hand full in the state. 
> 
> 
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall 
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
> 
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:44 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one 
>>> hand !
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bill
>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

I’m aware that I have to register in the state, and have faithfully done so 
since I bought my first sailboat up on Lake Superior.  But the whole argument 
of displaying registration numbers on a documented vessel is something that I 
don’t think is legal for a state to require, as it would (as I understand it) 
then supersede the federal law on the subject.  I display a state registration 
sticker on the upper corner of the transom as required by Wisconsin state law, 
but I will not put state registration numbers on the bow; and I don’t think 
Wisconsin can require me to do so.

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:30 PM, schiller  wrote:
> 
> Fred,
> 
> I think that if you kept your boat only on the waters of the Great Lakes, you 
> could get away without state registration.  As soon as you put into port 
> however, you just entered State controlled waterways.  I guess you could 
> anchor offshore and go into port with a registered dingy but that might be 
> iffy.
> 
> Michigan State boundaries go all the way to mid lake on Lake Michigan but the 
> federal jurisdiction may end at the shoreline.  Not sure on that.
> 
> Neil Schiller
> 1983 C 35-3, #028
> "Grace"
> White Lake Michigan
> WLYC 

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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

There was another one...in the 1970s, I think, when the CG prevailed I. Their 
desire to do searches anytime any place. A fellow named Kennedy (I think) took 
it to the Supreme Court. 
Andy

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 13:09, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> AFAIK the USCG was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and won there on 
> the ability to do searches for any reason they felt like back in the 1790s.
> An old complaint for sure!
>  
> Joe
> Coquina
> IANAL
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[schiller via CnC-List]

Fred,

I think that if you kept your boat only on the waters of the Great 
Lakes, you could get away without state registration.  As soon as you 
put into port however, you just entered State controlled waterways.  I 
guess you could anchor offshore and go into port with a registered dingy 
but that might be iffy.


Michigan State boundaries go all the way to mid lake on Lake Michigan 
but the federal jurisdiction may end at the shoreline. Not sure on that.


Neil Schiller
1983 C 35-3, #028
"Grace"
White Lake Michigan
WLYC

On 1/26/2018 9:38 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List wrote:
Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole 
authority over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of 
navigation.  Are you saying that’s not the case?


From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:


Great Lakes Jurisdiction

Also included within the "special territorial and maritime 
jurisdiction of the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great 
Lakes and their connecting waterways…


Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is 
not affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…


It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that 
Federal law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The 
jurisdictions may overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump 
local ones.


— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
> wrote:


I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal 
conclusion about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called 
“jurisdiction”). For clarification, my understanding is that the 
PFBC’s authority to regulate boats extends to navigable waters of the 
Commonwealth, while the USCG authority extends to navigable waters of 
the United States.  In the case of Lake Erie (and Presque Isle Bay), 
the authority of the two agencies overlaps.  In other words, portions 
of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth and waters of the 
United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority.  I 
suspect it’s the same in other States, but you would need to look at 
the applicable State statute(s).




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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

AFAIK the USCG was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and won there on the 
ability to do searches for any reason they felt like back in the 1790s.
An old complaint for sure!

Joe
Coquina
IANAL
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Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

Lots of legal issues today.  Most States have enacted a Sales Tax/Use Tax 
scheme to stop the avoidance of sales tax.  The PA statute, which follows the 
common pattern, charges “use tax” for items that are used in PA and for which 
no sales tax was paid.  If sales tax was paid, the use tax is the difference 
between what was paid and the PA sales tax (6%).  So, if you paid 5% sales tax 
somewhere else, you only owe 1% in use tax.  But if you paid nothing, you owe 
6% in use tax.

This scheme was tested on constitutional grounds in the context of car sales 
(where someone near a State line crosses to get a better deal on the sales 
tax).  The U.S. Supreme Court decided that because the State of residence used 
sales tax to support infrastructure, like the roads being used by the cars, the 
Use Tax scheme passed constitutional muster in that case.  This was based, in 
part, on the notion that using a public highway is a privilege, not a right.  
By contrast, boat owners have a right to use public waterways.

Another challenge I’d like to be hired for.

From: Dreuge via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:50 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Dreuge 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the sailboat 
should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the owner that he 
did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his home state) but 
he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in FL. 

With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many 
documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a hand 
full in the state. 


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/


  On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:44 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:

On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List  
wrote:

I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one 
hand !


Bill







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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

Yes, and he won against the PA Fish and Boat Commission (currently on appeal).

I used to lecture locally on this subject with respect to both the PFBC and the 
U.S. Coast Guard.  My co-presenter was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, who 
obviously had a different view than mine.

Once upon a time, the USCG had both regular law enforcement duties and 
Customs-related duties.  The 4th Amendment does not protect U.S. citizens from 
Customs-related searches as the country is being entered.  The USCG came to 
believe that this authority extends to regular law enforcement, and I 
respectfully disagree.  This is highlighted even more now because the U.S. 
Border Patrol (a different agency in the Department of Homeland Security) has 
taken over Customs-related enforcement in this region.  They even come out to 
greet you when you come home from Canada.

In my view, unless a search is Customs-related, the normal rules apply.  
Remarkably, the limited U.S. Supreme Court precedent on this issue was decided 
in the context of a Customs search.  I would love for a client hire me to take 
on the Coast Guard over this issue.

From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:28 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

Matt, 

Is someone arguing that the 4th Amendment applies on the water?  Don't tell the 
CG!

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  I normally stand down for such things, but I did not want Bill’s reproduced 
article to give everybody a false sense of righteousness when the Fish Cops 
show up.

  On a related note, there is currently a case working its way through the PA 
appellate court system on whether the PA Fish and Boat Commission has the 
authority to do warrantless searches (which they call “courtesy inspections”).  
Our Superior Court recently said no, which is a big deal.  I’ll inform the list 
when we have a decision.

  From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
  Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:01 PM
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Cc: Frederick G Street 
  Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

  Damn — my “sea-lawyering” has been beaten by a “real” lawyer…   :^) 

  I stand corrected.

  — Fred


  Fred Street -- Minneapolis
  S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


On Jan 26, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Fred:

Yes, I’m saying that’s not the case – at least in Pennsylvania.

Without getting into a huge legal discussion about the Supremacy Clause 
and federal preemption, there are a lot of subject matters where the Feds and 
the State have what they call “concurrent jurisdiction.”  I don’t like the term 
“jurisdiction,” because in my view jurisdiction deals with courts.  That’s why 
I use terms like “legal authority,” “enforcement authority,” or just 
“authority.”  Recall from grade school that States have general police power, 
while the Federal government supposedly has limited powers as enumerated in the 
U.S. Constitution.  The written limitation was almost entirely circumvented by 
the U.S. Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the Commerce Clause in the 1930s 
(thanks to FDR), and the Federal government now does a lot of things that it 
did not do historically.  The result is a ridiculously complex web of 
concurrent Federal and State authority.  For example, the EPA administers and 
enforces Federal environmental laws, which were enacted under the authority of 
the Commerce Clause.  In PA, the State Department of Environmental Protection 
administers and enforces State environmental laws under its general police 
power, and also administers and enforces Federal law (along with EPA) under a 
delegation arrangement with the EPA.  At the same time, the U.S. Army Corps of 
Engineers has regulatory authority over structures between Ordinary High Water 
Mark and Ordinary Low Water Mark – which makes no sense in non-tidal waters 
because the high/low water mark framework was created under English common law 
to deal with navigable waters under the Public Trust Doctrine (waters that rise 
and fall daily are tidal influenced because they are connected to the ocean and 
were therefore considered navigable).  Adding to the complication, Pennsylvania 
owns the beds under navigable waters (as do many other States) and, along with 
the Corps, has regulatory authority between Ordinary High and Low Water Marks.  
There are local regulatory issues as well.

So, each State may have its own unique circumstances, but generally 
speaking the Feds and States have concurrent enforcement authority over 
navigable waters within the State.

Matt
Former PA Deputy Attorney General
Former DER Assistant Regional Counsel (assigned to water programs, 
including Coastal Zone Management)
Former DEP Northwest Regional Counsel

Re: Stus-List Colorado documented vessels.

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

We have a Colorado registered Columbia 50 in our marina.  While the sailboat 
should have been registered in Florida by now, I was told by the owner that he 
did not pay sales tax to register the vessel in Colorado (his home state) but 
he would have to pay about $5k in taxes to register it in FL.

With a tax incentive like that I would guess that there are many many 
documented vessels with Colorado registrations, but likely not more than a hand 
full in the state. 


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 11:44 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one 
>> hand !
>> 
>> 
>> Bill
> 

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Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

The newest ones on the boat would be from the early 90s. The cable up the mast 
is from the 80s and that’s the one that tests perfect. Go figure.
I keep meaning to swap that one because it is the oldest but it shows 1.2 VSWR, 
which is pretty good!



Joe Della Barba
Coquina




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 11:57 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Joel Aronson
Subject: Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

Joe,

Glad you are making progress!  I keep forgetting to test out my WiFi module on 
my AIS.  I know it is transmitting, but the app to display AIS is on the iPad 
which usually stays in the house.  My Navionics app on my phone does not show 
AIS.

How old is the antenna cable?

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Things are coming along with a snag or two. Wouldn’t be a boat otherwise.
Thing one is I cannot get the CP180 to display AIS targets. It is driving me 
nuts. It even went back to S-H and that didn’t help. More to come, I got a 
diagnostic mode setup from them to try.
The other thing is out of my 3 VHF antennas, the AIS only likes the masthead 
one. The other two report back as bad antennas. They have been on there a long 
time, maybe they are. Need to get a meter on those things.
On the good news side the $30 or so Wifi link works GREAT. My iPhone and IPad 
both show all the data over the wifi and I can see AIS targets on both ☺ That 
thing is the deal of the century.

Joe
Coquina
C 35 MK I

___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray




--
Joel
301 541 8551
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to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

[Gary Russell via CnC-List]

What $30 WiFi link are you talking about?
Gary
S/V Kaylarah
'90 C 37+
East Greenwich, RI, USA

~~~_/)~~


On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Things are coming along with a snag or two. Wouldn’t be a boat otherwise.
>
> Thing one is I cannot get the CP180 to display AIS targets. It is driving
> me nuts. It even went back to S-H and that didn’t help. More to come, I got
> a diagnostic mode setup from them to try.
>
> The other thing is out of my 3 VHF antennas, the AIS only likes the
> masthead one. The other two report back as bad antennas. They have been on
> there a long time, maybe they are. Need to get a meter on those things.
>
> On the good news side the $30 or so Wifi link works GREAT. My iPhone and
> IPad both show all the data over the wifi and I can see AIS targets on both
> J That thing is the deal of the century.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
> C 35 MK I
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Matt,

Is someone arguing that the 4th Amendment applies on the water?  Don't tell
the CG!

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I normally stand down for such things, but I did not want Bill’s
> reproduced article to give everybody a false sense of righteousness when
> the Fish Cops show up.
>
> On a related note, there is currently a case working its way through the
> PA appellate court system on whether the PA Fish and Boat Commission has
> the authority to do warrantless searches (which they call “courtesy
> inspections”).  Our Superior Court recently said no, which is a big deal.
> I’ll inform the list when we have a decision.
>
> *From:* Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, January 26, 2018 12:01 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Frederick G Street 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"
>
> Damn — my “sea-lawyering” has been beaten by a “real” lawyer…   :^)
>
> I stand corrected.
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Fred:
>
> Yes, I’m saying that’s not the case – at least in Pennsylvania.
>
> Without getting into a huge legal discussion about the Supremacy
> Clause and federal preemption, there are a lot of subject matters where the
> Feds and the State have what they call “concurrent jurisdiction.”  I don’t
> like the term “jurisdiction,” because in my view jurisdiction deals with
> courts.  That’s why I use terms like “legal authority,” “enforcement
> authority,” or just “authority.”  Recall from grade school that States have
> general police power, while the Federal government supposedly has limited
> powers as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.  The written limitation was
> almost entirely circumvented by the U.S. Supreme Court’s reinterpretation
> of the Commerce Clause in the 1930s (thanks to FDR), and the Federal
> government now does a lot of things that it did not do historically.  The
> result is a ridiculously complex web of concurrent Federal and State
> authority.  For example, the EPA administers and enforces Federal
> environmental laws, which were enacted under the authority of the Commerce
> Clause.  In PA, the State Department of Environmental Protection
> administers and enforces State environmental laws under its general police
> power, and also administers and enforces Federal law (along with EPA) under
> a delegation arrangement with the EPA.  At the same time, the U.S. Army
> Corps of Engineers has regulatory authority over structures between
> Ordinary High Water Mark and Ordinary Low Water Mark – which makes no sense
> in non-tidal waters because the high/low water mark framework was created
> under English common law to deal with navigable waters under the Public
> Trust Doctrine (waters that rise and fall daily are tidal influenced
> because they are connected to the ocean and were therefore considered
> navigable).  Adding to the complication, Pennsylvania owns the beds under
> navigable waters (as do many other States) and, along with the Corps, has
> regulatory authority between Ordinary High and Low Water Marks.  There are
> local regulatory issues as well.
>
> So, each State may have its own unique circumstances, but generally
> speaking the Feds and States have concurrent enforcement authority over
> navigable waters within the State.
>
> Matt
> Former PA Deputy Attorney General
> Former DER Assistant Regional Counsel (assigned to water programs,
> including Coastal Zone Management)
> Former DEP Northwest Regional Counsel
>
>
>
> --
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

I normally stand down for such things, but I did not want Bill’s reproduced 
article to give everybody a false sense of righteousness when the Fish Cops 
show up.

On a related note, there is currently a case working its way through the PA 
appellate court system on whether the PA Fish and Boat Commission has the 
authority to do warrantless searches (which they call “courtesy inspections”).  
Our Superior Court recently said no, which is a big deal.  I’ll inform the list 
when we have a decision.

From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:01 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

Damn — my “sea-lawyering” has been beaten by a “real” lawyer…   :^) 

I stand corrected.

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


  On Jan 26, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  Fred:

  Yes, I’m saying that’s not the case – at least in Pennsylvania.

  Without getting into a huge legal discussion about the Supremacy Clause 
and federal preemption, there are a lot of subject matters where the Feds and 
the State have what they call “concurrent jurisdiction.”  I don’t like the term 
“jurisdiction,” because in my view jurisdiction deals with courts.  That’s why 
I use terms like “legal authority,” “enforcement authority,” or just 
“authority.”  Recall from grade school that States have general police power, 
while the Federal government supposedly has limited powers as enumerated in the 
U.S. Constitution.  The written limitation was almost entirely circumvented by 
the U.S. Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the Commerce Clause in the 1930s 
(thanks to FDR), and the Federal government now does a lot of things that it 
did not do historically.  The result is a ridiculously complex web of 
concurrent Federal and State authority.  For example, the EPA administers and 
enforces Federal environmental laws, which were enacted under the authority of 
the Commerce Clause.  In PA, the State Department of Environmental Protection 
administers and enforces State environmental laws under its general police 
power, and also administers and enforces Federal law (along with EPA) under a 
delegation arrangement with the EPA.  At the same time, the U.S. Army Corps of 
Engineers has regulatory authority over structures between Ordinary High Water 
Mark and Ordinary Low Water Mark – which makes no sense in non-tidal waters 
because the high/low water mark framework was created under English common law 
to deal with navigable waters under the Public Trust Doctrine (waters that rise 
and fall daily are tidal influenced because they are connected to the ocean and 
were therefore considered navigable).  Adding to the complication, Pennsylvania 
owns the beds under navigable waters (as do many other States) and, along with 
the Corps, has regulatory authority between Ordinary High and Low Water Marks.  
There are local regulatory issues as well.

  So, each State may have its own unique circumstances, but generally 
speaking the Feds and States have concurrent enforcement authority over 
navigable waters within the State.

  Matt
  Former PA Deputy Attorney General
  Former DER Assistant Regional Counsel (assigned to water programs, including 
Coastal Zone Management)
  Former DEP Northwest Regional Counsel




___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Damn — my “sea-lawyering” has been beaten by a “real” lawyer…   :^)

I stand corrected.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fred:
>  
> Yes, I’m saying that’s not the case – at least in Pennsylvania.
>  
> Without getting into a huge legal discussion about the Supremacy Clause 
> and federal preemption, there are a lot of subject matters where the Feds and 
> the State have what they call “concurrent jurisdiction.”  I don’t like the 
> term “jurisdiction,” because in my view jurisdiction deals with courts.  
> That’s why I use terms like “legal authority,” “enforcement authority,” or 
> just “authority.”  Recall from grade school that States have general police 
> power, while the Federal government supposedly has limited powers as 
> enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.  The written limitation was almost 
> entirely circumvented by the U.S. Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the 
> Commerce Clause in the 1930s (thanks to FDR), and the Federal government now 
> does a lot of things that it did not do historically.  The result is a 
> ridiculously complex web of concurrent Federal and State authority.  For 
> example, the EPA administers and enforces Federal environmental laws, which 
> were enacted under the authority of the Commerce Clause.  In PA, the State 
> Department of Environmental Protection administers and enforces State 
> environmental laws under its general police power, and also administers and 
> enforces Federal law (along with EPA) under a delegation arrangement with the 
> EPA.  At the same time, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has regulatory 
> authority over structures between Ordinary High Water Mark and Ordinary Low 
> Water Mark – which makes no sense in non-tidal waters because the high/low 
> water mark framework was created under English common law to deal with 
> navigable waters under the Public Trust Doctrine (waters that rise and fall 
> daily are tidal influenced because they are connected to the ocean and were 
> therefore considered navigable).  Adding to the complication, Pennsylvania 
> owns the beds under navigable waters (as do many other States) and, along 
> with the Corps, has regulatory authority between Ordinary High and Low Water 
> Marks.  There are local regulatory issues as well.
>  
> So, each State may have its own unique circumstances, but generally 
> speaking the Feds and States have concurrent enforcement authority over 
> navigable waters within the State.
>  
> Matt
> Former PA Deputy Attorney General
> Former DER Assistant Regional Counsel (assigned to water programs, including 
> Coastal Zone Management)
> Former DEP Northwest Regional Counsel

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

One additional note, Fred:  for certain navigation issues, like the color, 
style, and placement of channel markers, there may well be preemption.  I doubt 
States are free to alter the uniform Federal scheme.

Clear as mud.

From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 9:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole authority 
over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of navigation.  Are you 
saying that’s not the case? 

>From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:

  Great Lakes Jurisdiction

  Also included within the "special territorial and maritime jurisdiction of 
the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great Lakes and their connecting 
waterways…

  Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is not 
affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…

It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that Federal 
law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The jurisdictions may 
overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump local ones.


— Fred



Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(



  On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal conclusion 
about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called “jurisdiction”).  For 
clarification, my understanding is that the PFBC’s authority to regulate boats 
extends to navigable waters of the Commonwealth, while the USCG authority 
extends to navigable waters of the United States.  In the case of Lake Erie 
(and Presque Isle Bay), the authority of the two agencies overlaps.  In other 
words, portions of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth and waters of 
the United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority.  I suspect it’s 
the same in other States, but you would need to look at the applicable State 
statute(s).




___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Joe,

Glad you are making progress!  I keep forgetting to test out my WiFi module
on my AIS.  I know it is transmitting, but the app to display AIS is on the
iPad which usually stays in the house.  My Navionics app on my phone does
not show AIS.

How old is the antenna cable?

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Things are coming along with a snag or two. Wouldn’t be a boat otherwise.
>
> Thing one is I cannot get the CP180 to display AIS targets. It is driving
> me nuts. It even went back to S-H and that didn’t help. More to come, I got
> a diagnostic mode setup from them to try.
>
> The other thing is out of my 3 VHF antennas, the AIS only likes the
> masthead one. The other two report back as bad antennas. They have been on
> there a long time, maybe they are. Need to get a meter on those things.
>
> On the good news side the $30 or so Wifi link works GREAT. My iPhone and
> IPad both show all the data over the wifi and I can see AIS targets on both
> J That thing is the deal of the century.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
> C 35 MK I
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

Fred:

Yes, I’m saying that’s not the case – at least in Pennsylvania.

Without getting into a huge legal discussion about the Supremacy Clause and 
federal preemption, there are a lot of subject matters where the Feds and the 
State have what they call “concurrent jurisdiction.”  I don’t like the term 
“jurisdiction,” because in my view jurisdiction deals with courts.  That’s why 
I use terms like “legal authority,” “enforcement authority,” or just 
“authority.”  Recall from grade school that States have general police power, 
while the Federal government supposedly has limited powers as enumerated in the 
U.S. Constitution.  The written limitation was almost entirely circumvented by 
the U.S. Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the Commerce Clause in the 1930s 
(thanks to FDR), and the Federal government now does a lot of things that it 
did not do historically.  The result is a ridiculously complex web of 
concurrent Federal and State authority.  For example, the EPA administers and 
enforces Federal environmental laws, which were enacted under the authority of 
the Commerce Clause.  In PA, the State Department of Environmental Protection 
administers and enforces State environmental laws under its general police 
power, and also administers and enforces Federal law (along with EPA) under a 
delegation arrangement with the EPA.  At the same time, the U.S. Army Corps of 
Engineers has regulatory authority over structures between Ordinary High Water 
Mark and Ordinary Low Water Mark – which makes no sense in non-tidal waters 
because the high/low water mark framework was created under English common law 
to deal with navigable waters under the Public Trust Doctrine (waters that rise 
and fall daily are tidal influenced because they are connected to the ocean and 
were therefore considered navigable).  Adding to the complication, Pennsylvania 
owns the beds under navigable waters (as do many other States) and, along with 
the Corps, has regulatory authority between Ordinary High and Low Water Marks.  
There are local regulatory issues as well.

So, each State may have its own unique circumstances, but generally 
speaking the Feds and States have concurrent enforcement authority over 
navigable waters within the State.

Matt
Former PA Deputy Attorney General
Former DER Assistant Regional Counsel (assigned to water programs, including 
Coastal Zone Management)
Former DEP Northwest Regional Counsel

From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 9:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole authority 
over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of navigation.  Are you 
saying that’s not the case? 

>From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:

  Great Lakes Jurisdiction

  Also included within the "special territorial and maritime jurisdiction of 
the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great Lakes and their connecting 
waterways…

  Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is not 
affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…

It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that Federal 
law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The jurisdictions may 
overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump local ones.


— Fred



Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(



  On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal conclusion 
about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called “jurisdiction”).  For 
clarification, my understanding is that the PFBC’s authority to regulate boats 
extends to navigable waters of the Commonwealth, while the USCG authority 
extends to navigable waters of the United States.  In the case of Lake Erie 
(and Presque Isle Bay), the authority of the two agencies overlaps.  In other 
words, portions of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth and waters of 
the United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority.  I suspect it’s 
the same in other States, but you would need to look at the applicable State 
statute(s).




___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List AIS improvement + general rewiring

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Things are coming along with a snag or two. Wouldn’t be a boat otherwise.
Thing one is I cannot get the CP180 to display AIS targets. It is driving me 
nuts. It even went back to S-H and that didn’t help. More to come, I got a 
diagnostic mode setup from them to try.
The other thing is out of my 3 VHF antennas, the AIS only likes the masthead 
one. The other two report back as bad antennas. They have been on there a long 
time, maybe they are. Need to get a meter on those things.
On the good news side the $30 or so Wifi link works GREAT. My iPhone and IPad 
both show all the data over the wifi and I can see AIS targets on both ☺ That 
thing is the deal of the century.

Joe
Coquina
C 35 MK I
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List State Registration of Documented Vessels (was "Maritime Documentation Center")

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

(trying to be a good list citizen here and use appropriate subject lines and 
trim posts)

Ha ha Bill, you’re probably right :)

Pueblo Reservoir is open year-round and has boats to 40 feet, so there may be 
some down there.

So far at Chatfield I haven’t been stopped and boarded by the Park Rangers for 
my lack of Colorado registration numbers on the bow.  Which is good, because if 
that happens they’ll find my rum stash, when only 3.2% beer is allowed in the 
park :)

Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:00 AM, coltrek via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one 
> hand !
> 
> 
> Bill


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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[coltrek via CnC-List]

I'll bet you can count the number of documented vessels in Colorado on one hand 
!

Bill

 Original message 
From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List  
Date: 1/25/18  17:35  (GMT-05:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Randy Stafford  
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center" 

In Colorado, USCG-documented vessels are exempt from the requirement to be 
registered in the state.  
http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Boating/BoatingRegulations.pdf, pg.28, statute 
33-13-103(1)(b).
Cheers,Randy
On Jan 25, 2018, at 3:30 PM, svpegasus38 via CnC-List  
wrote:
Same with Washington. State. Just have to display the state sticker on 
documented vessels. 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Rebecca Leah Lf39
 Original message From: schiller via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/25/18 13:40 (GMT-08:00)To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: schiller  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"
Michigan requires that you display the Michigan Registration sticker on 
documented boats.  You will get a registration number when you register the 
boat but you do not have to display them.  Before I renewed the documentation 
on Corsair (Redwing 35), I displayed the registration numbers on a plastic 
panels hung from the bow lifelines.  Michigan has now outlawed that so I 
documented Corsair.  I hate putting registration numbers on the fiberglass bow. 
 Grace (C 35-3) already had registration numbers on the bow and has never 
been documented.

Interestingly enough, the water cops all think any boat over 25' that doesn't 
display registration numbers must be documented so they don't check.  Even if 
they aren't displaying the registration sticker.

Neil Schiller
Old: 1970 Redwing 35 (C 35, Mark I), Hull #7
New: 1983 C 35-3, #028
White Lake, Michigan
WLYC

On 1/25/2018 4:13 PM, Jack Brennan via CnC-List wrote:
Florida has a wonderful discount for “antique” vessels at least 30 years old. I 
think I pay $5 a year – as opposed to maybe $135 – because I sail a good old 
boat. Florida also requires a state decal for federally documented vessels such 
as mine, by the way. Jack BrennanFormer C 25Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30
Tierra Verde, Fl.From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-ListSent: Thursday, January 
25, 2018 3:55 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: Matthew L. WolfordSubject: Re: 
Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center" ___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

I would think it would be similar to the intra-coastal water way.   The US 
Coast Guard has authority over the ICW.  For example, for various reasons they 
will close sections, like just before, during and after major storms. Here in 
Florida, our FWC(the boat staties) have the authority to stop and inspect 
vessels on the ICW.  I would not be surprised if the majority of the BWI 
arrests were on the ICW.


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 9:38 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 08:38:13 -0600
> From: Frederick G Street >
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"
> Message-ID: <657170cd-8549-4250-94ce-a06c21b86...@postaudio.net 
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Matt ? it?s my understanding that the federal government has sole authority 
> over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of navigation.  Are you 
> saying that?s not the case?
> 
> From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:
> 
>> Great Lakes Jurisdiction
>> 
>> Also included within the "special territorial and maritime jurisdiction of 
>> the United States" by 18 U.S.C. ? 7(2) are the Great Lakes and their 
>> connecting waterways?
>> 
>> Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. ?  7(2) over American vessels is not 
>> affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction?
> 
> It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that 
> Federal law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The 
> jurisdictions may overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump local ones.
> 
> ? Fred
> 
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

The Father Guido Sarducci lesson on preemption:

1. Federal law trumps state law where they conflict
2. Federal law does not prohibit concurrent state law on the same subject
matter unless
a. Congress says so
b. The rules are in such conflict that both can't co-exist.

Thus, California has its own fuel economy law that only applies to vehicles
sold in the state.

Joel

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> State and local authorities often patrol the exact same waters as USCG,
> enforcing state and local laws. State and Local laws are not permitted to
> exceed or countermand Federal laws. Also note that in many places, the
> Federal Government has officially ceded control of Federal navigable waters
> to local authorities. Witness the anchoring battles in Florida.
>
> Bill Bina
>
> On 1/26/2018 9:38 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List wrote:
>
> Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole
> authority over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of
> navigation.  Are you saying that’s not the case?
>
> From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:
>
> Great Lakes Jurisdiction
>
> Also included within the "special territorial and maritime jurisdiction of
> the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great Lakes and their
> connecting waterways…
>
> Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is not
> affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…
>
>
> It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that
> Federal law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The
> jurisdictions may overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump local
> ones.
>
> — Fred
>
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal conclusion
> about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called “jurisdiction”).  For
> clarification, my understanding is that the PFBC’s authority to regulate
> boats extends to navigable waters of the Commonwealth, while the USCG
> authority extends to navigable waters of the United States.  In the case of
> Lake Erie (and Presque Isle Bay), the authority of the two agencies
> overlaps.  In other words, portions of Lake Erie are both waters of the
> Commonwealth and waters of the United States, so both agencies have
> enforcement authority.  I suspect it’s the same in other States, but you
> would need to look at the applicable State statute(s).
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List]

State and local authorities often patrol the exact same waters as USCG, 
enforcing state and local laws. State and Local laws are not permitted 
to exceed or countermand Federal laws. Also note that in many places, 
the Federal Government has officially ceded control of Federal navigable 
waters to local authorities. Witness the anchoring battles in Florida.


Bill Bina


On 1/26/2018 9:38 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List wrote:
Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole 
authority over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of 
navigation.  Are you saying that’s not the case?


From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:


Great Lakes Jurisdiction

Also included within the "special territorial and maritime 
jurisdiction of the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great 
Lakes and their connecting waterways…


Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is 
not affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…


It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that 
Federal law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The 
jurisdictions may overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump 
local ones.


— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
> wrote:


I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal 
conclusion about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called 
“jurisdiction”). For clarification, my understanding is that the 
PFBC’s authority to regulate boats extends to navigable waters of the 
Commonwealth, while the USCG authority extends to navigable waters of 
the United States.  In the case of Lake Erie (and Presque Isle Bay), 
the authority of the two agencies overlaps.  In other words, portions 
of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth and waters of the 
United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority.  I 
suspect it’s the same in other States, but you would need to look at 
the applicable State statute(s).




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___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Matt — it’s my understanding that the federal government has sole authority 
over the Great Lakes Inland Waterways for purposes of navigation.  Are you 
saying that’s not the case?

From a US DOJ site which includes parts of the US code:

> Great Lakes Jurisdiction
> 
> Also included within the "special territorial and maritime jurisdiction of 
> the United States" by 18 U.S.C. § 7(2) are the Great Lakes and their 
> connecting waterways…
> 
> Federal jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. §  7(2) over American vessels is not 
> affected by the existence of concurrent state jurisdiction…

It seems like the Supremacy clause in the Constitution would mean that Federal 
law will supplant local jurisdictions in all cases.  The jurisdictions may 
overlap, but the Federal rules will always trump local ones.

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


> On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal conclusion 
> about PFBC legal authority (sometimes called “jurisdiction”).  For 
> clarification, my understanding is that the PFBC’s authority to regulate 
> boats extends to navigable waters of the Commonwealth, while the USCG 
> authority extends to navigable waters of the United States.  In the case of 
> Lake Erie (and Presque Isle Bay), the authority of the two agencies overlaps. 
>  In other words, portions of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth 
> and waters of the United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority. 
>  I suspect it’s the same in other States, but you would need to look at the 
> applicable State statute(s).

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Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

I just reviewed your note below and the article writer’s legal conclusion about 
PFBC legal authority (sometimes called “jurisdiction”).  For clarification, my 
understanding is that the PFBC’s authority to regulate boats extends to 
navigable waters of the Commonwealth, while the USCG authority extends to 
navigable waters of the United States.  In the case of Lake Erie (and Presque 
Isle Bay), the authority of the two agencies overlaps.  In other words, 
portions of Lake Erie are both waters of the Commonwealth and waters of the 
United States, so both agencies have enforcement authority.  I suspect it’s the 
same in other States, but you would need to look at the applicable State 
statute(s).

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 3:33 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Re: Stus-List "Maritime Documentation Center"

Now you’ve really hit a sore spot with me.

I have NO love for the PA Fish and Boat Commission, 

And have been pulled over a few times by them. They like to ask where my PA 
decals are, and I point to the nearly indelible round temporary stickers I put 
on the bow, and note with that as proof that I had paid the Sales Tax in 1997.  
 Of course they want the current sticker, and I tell them that these are 
Federal Waters, not PA State Waters, the boat is documented and that is that.  
Well, of course then they get all huffy, and once they just asked where the 
boat was docked, slip, etc, like they were going to do something and I never 
heard from them.

Another time, last summer in fact, they did another check, and wanted to see 
life jackets, fire extinguishers, etc, and then got to the sticker issue.  I 
told them that I had in fact paid for a current sticker (I had decided a couple 
years ago to re-up my sticker, just to keep them off my back, but I just 
couldn’t bring myself to put them on bow.)

I couldn’t find the stickers right then, and they said they were going to 
check. They had a laptop, I told to check right there, but for some reason they 
couldn’t tap in to the Dep of Revenue site or something.  I never heard from 
them again.  But I did find my stickers the next day, they were current.

 

This below is an article I copied out of the BoatUS Magazine several years ago 
on the subject.

 

<<"Why I put Pa. numbers on a federally documented Boat, just  a  few  notes  
on  your 'documentation '   issue: 

 

In Pa.,  the  Fish and  Boat  Commission can  and  will pull  over  any   boat  
lacking the PA  registration  numbers  on the  bow.  We  have a  federally  
documented  boat  but  paid the  PA  sales  tax  on  it  when  we  bought  it . 
We registered  with the  F & B  People   at this  time and  got  the PA 
numbers.  We did  not  care  to  put the  PA  numbers  on the  bow  believing  
we  were  'federally  documented' and  it was  not required.  

 

On a  windy  3rd  of  July , we  were pulled over  by  F We  explained  it 
was  a  documented  boat, not  required  by  federal law to  display  ANY  
state  stickers. (We  were  in fact OUT of the  jurisdiction of the  F & B  , 
as  we  were on Lake  Erie,  a  federal  navigable  waterway. The  PA  F
jurisdiction only  extends  to PA  inland   Lakes  like Lake  Arthur, and PA  
waterways,  like  Oil Creek. (and   Erie  is NOT  a  PA inland  lake)  The  F 
 has  no  jurisdiction over   navigable  federal  waterways, (Like the  
Allegheny  River  below  the uppermost  lock, etc.)It  took these F   
guys an  hour  to  pull us  over,   look  at  our  PA  registration certificate 
(which WAS  current) ,   and  call someone in  Harrisburg  to  decide whether  
to  issue  us   the  $150  ticket  they were  threatening.  (By the  way  F  
also  has the 'right'  to  forbid  you  to  use  any  PA  state  park  for haul 
 in  UNTIL  you  get the PA  numbers ) This  'arrest'   happened  to  us  
on  a  windy holiday weekend ,  with  guests  on  board.  It  was  very  
disruptive  of the  holiday  spirit  and  I must  say  the  F  guy  was  
belligerent,  rude  and  thoroughly unpleasant  to deal  with . (You  may  have 
 seen the  same  F  Officer who 'arrested '  us  on his  patrol in the  
Presque Isle marina--he is  the  portly  gentleman,   smoking  his  cigar  
while  moored  at the  gas  dock at  Presque isle  state  park,  near  the NO 
SMOKING  sign..  but  that  is  another  matter...)

 

So you  certainly  have a legal  right NOT  to  have  PA numbers   on  your  
bow-- but  do  you  want the  hassle  of  getting  pulled  over for  an  hour   
 every  time a  F  sees  your  boat  without  PA  numbers?  And  do  you 
want to  fight the  $150  ticket,  and  lose  more  time   out of your  short  
boating  season  ??

Numbers not required on bow, see

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/nvdc/nvdcfaq.asp#22  >>

 

Bill Coleman

C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Matthew L. 
Wolford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, 

Re: Stus-List C 24 Mainsheet Traveler

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

In my opinion that traveller over the tiller looks a bit Frankensteiny (;-)

There was a number of C 24 that were converted to cockpit traveller (my old 
boat including). The traveler goes about 1.5 foot aft of the companionway 
entrance (forward of the lazarette openings). That arrangement works really 
well for sheeting the main. Opinions differ on how much it obstructs access to 
the cabin below (generally, skippers consider it a reasonable compromise, 
admirals – not so much).

Here is a picture from one of them for sale: 
http://www.thunderbirdmarine.com/boat-info.php?ID=2898

Marek
ex 1974 C 24 “Fennel”
Ottawa, ON

From: Doug Ellmore via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 19:40
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Doug Ellmore
Subject: Stus-List C 24 Mainsheet Traveler

I am wonder if anyone has installed an elevated mainsheet traveler over the 
tiller of a C 24?

I am consider building something like found on this McGregor: 
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/boom-vang-on-traveler.168335/

--
Doug
s/v Red Sky, C 24, #102

d...@ellmore.net

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