OT: Capital (Was RE: Cocoon use worldwide)

[Hunsberger, Peter]

>> Anyone know any VCs with money left? :-).
> 
> AN interesting aspect of Capitalism is that money never disappears. Anyone
who 
> claims this doesn't know how to look at the big picture.

Ah, but capital does disappear: much of the dot com boom was financed not
with "money" but with inflated expectations converted into inflated stock
evaluations

But yes, you are correct, you still can find money if you can write a decent
business plan.  But beware, you can also still find over valued stock if
you're not careful.



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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 31 January 2003 23:44, Matthew Langham wrote:
> Anyone know any VCs with money left? :-).

AN interesting aspect of Capitalism is that money never disappears. Anyone who 
claims this doesn't know how to look at the big picture.

So, where are all the money that  went around in the dotCom boom?

Wrong question. The money is back where it used to be. The investors has 
"un-got it" that the web based companies ARE INDEED bound by the same 
economic principles like all other companies. Then the dotComs don't look 
like such a bright investment after all, and investments are back into the 
whole gamut of companies.

So, to answer your question, YES there are plenty of capital available, 
probably in the trillions world-wide, but not handed out frivously to anyone 
with a $35 domain name and a catchy slogan. Prepare business plan, rally a 
competent management, draft the financials with credible cash flow and P/L 
forecasts, and you will probably find a VC if you can show a 30-50% chance of 
a 3-10 times Return-On-Investment in 3-5 years.
Easy? Not at all, and that is why many colleagues have difficulty to find 
employment compared to 3 years ago.

Niclas

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DC CHUG (WAS RE: Cocoon use worldwide)

[Geoff Howard]

I'll be there with bells on (unless it's cold - then I'll dress warmer).

I've had a few others write off list with some interest, and an idea to
arrange a presentation at the NOVA JUG in Reston at some point.  If you're
interested, let me know on/off list.  No schedule yet - we'll just consider
the presentation on Feb. 19th our kick-off.

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
> Geoff,
>
> I'm game for a DC CHUG.  I already partipate in the DC SGML/XML UG and
> the Baltimore HJUG, but my S.O. won't mind another night per month.
> Right? :-)
>
> Let's talk on Wed. Feb 19th at the DC SGML/XML UG meeting (at the AGU
> Bldg. on Florida and Connecticut Aves. NW north of Dupont Circle).
> February's meeting is also a joint meeting with the DC Linux UG.
>
> -- jack
>
> John R. Callahan
> Sphere Software Corporation - The Intelligence of XML
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >
> > Anyone in DC up for a C.H.U.G.? (Cocoon Hackers & Users Group)
> >
> > Geoff
> >
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>


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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Jeff Ramsdale]

Well, Seattle is a LONG way from D.C.--about 4-5 days' drive each way, for
those who aren't familiar with the scale of the North American continent. I
was in D.C. over Christmas, though--too bad I hadn't asked my question yet!
Would love to see a CHUG if only to raise the prominence of Cocoon on this
side of the pond.

I participate in the Seattle Java Users Group (SeaJUG--www.seajug.org), and
Cocoon has come up in discussion a number of times lately--there's
definately awareness of it. The XML-SIG for the group is especially
interested, of course.

Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Geoff Howard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:17 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
> I've been working with Cocoon for a little over a year now (in the
> US) and have certainly have had that feeling.  There have been some
> really good points so far which I won't recapitulate.  I'll just
> add a couple of tidbits:
>
> - I have been looking for Cocoon related jobs in the US and haven't
> found a single one (yet).
> - There haven't been (yet) any big name companies adopting cocoon
> publicly - this would help.
> - I have made some wrong assumptions based on names, and other cues
> (how well they seem to know the people who I _know_ live in Europe)
> only to find they are in the States.
> - I think the books have helped visibility here - I've
> noticed more name recognition recently when I mention Cocoon.
> - I think some here will take a "wait and see" attitude to see if Cocoon
> will "jump the pond".
> - We need some Cocoon users groups in the US.  I'm in DC and know
> there's at
> least 5-10 regulars on the list from here.  (maybe I'll meet them at John
> Callahan's shpiel).
>
> Anyone in DC up for a C.H.U.G.? (Cocoon Hackers & Users Group)
>
> Geoff





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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> We're using Cocoon on health care projects that need to
> protect XML content at a fine-grain level based on a user's role, context,
and state > of the data.  Rather than embedding this logic completely in the
persistence layer 
> or code (a DB or EJBs), we're doing it within transforms and actions.  

Hi Jack (John?),

This sounds an awful lot like what we are working on here at St. Jude
Children's Research Hospital...  I've posted about it some here on users and
some on dev.  Mostly architectural concerns: one area I'd like to see Cocoon
go is to make it possible to write all business and presentation logic as
XSLT rules triggered from XML templates.

> This allows us to audit various transactions to ensure they meet HIPAA
guidelines at 
> a very detailed level and express those data security policies as
constraints on
> XPath expressions - which non-programmers like physicians can actually
read and
> understand! :-)  

That's a bit different than our approach.  The security and audit rules are
written in  XSLT/Xpath, but they aren't implemented in such a way that I'd
expect anyone but a programmer to understand (though they are not to
opaque).  Eg:



Or:
  

> We've also been able to more easily cast their web applications as web
services, 
> VoiceXML services, and as AvantGo sources (e.g., a directory of regional
> physicians).

Haven't had to go their yet...

> Finally, the development and deployment of Cocoon
> solutions are very cost effective (TCD and TCO). 

Very important for a non-profit like us...



> I'm giving a tutorial on Cocoon next month ( http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
) here 
> in D.C.  I also noticed that Ivelin Ivanov is giving a talk in Austin, TX
USA next
> month too ( http://www.xmlaustin.org/_html_out/main/events.html )

If you ever make it near Memphis I think it would be worth getting together.
I used to get to the DC area every spring for the HCFA conferences but don't
have time for those these days...


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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Matthew Langham]

> 1) Open Source projects seem to grow virally, infecting those
> closest to the
> source first.  Sooner or later a carrier makes their way to some place new
> and a new source of infection grows up.  With Cocoon I think there are now
> enough sources of infection that it will propagate at a pretty rapid rate
> across the entire world in the future.

This is very true. For the last weeks of 2002 and now in 2003 we are
noticing a strong growth in the number of Cocoon related inquiries we
receive.

The problem of large companies using Cocoon and not (yet) talking about it
publicly has been touched on in this thread. I can say that there are really
really large companies either already using Cocoon in production
environments or evaluating Cocoon for their requirements. Hopefully we will
see more of this become public this year.

Anyone know any VCs with money left? :-).

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
  http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
  http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=



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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list
for a 
> couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
Australia--Jeff T!)
> interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of Americans (&
Canadians?) not
> being interested, I'm sure. 

I'm a Canadian working in the US (Memphis, TN)...



> Interested in your observations...

I'll give you two, both of which have already been touched on somewhat:

1) Open Source projects seem to grow virally, infecting those closest to the
source first.  Sooner or later a carrier makes their way to some place new
and a new source of infection grows up.  With Cocoon I think there are now
enough sources of infection that it will propagate at a pretty rapid rate
across the entire world in the future.  

2) Given Cocoons capability to provide differing presentation for the same
site I think it has found a lot of hosts in Europe where the requirements
for  multiple language support (and similar) lead to requirements that
Cocoon fills well.

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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[jcallahan]

Geoff,

I'm game for a DC CHUG.  I already partipate in the DC SGML/XML UG and
the Baltimore HJUG, but my S.O. won't mind another night per month.
Right? :-)

Let's talk on Wed. Feb 19th at the DC SGML/XML UG meeting (at the AGU
Bldg. on Florida and Connecticut Aves. NW north of Dupont Circle).
February's meeting is also a joint meeting with the DC Linux UG.

-- jack

John R. Callahan
Sphere Software Corporation - The Intelligence of XML
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> 
> Anyone in DC up for a C.H.U.G.? (Cocoon Hackers & Users Group)
> 
> Geoff
> 

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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Geoff Howard]

I've been working with Cocoon for a little over a year now (in the
US) and have certainly have had that feeling.  There have been some
really good points so far which I won't recapitulate.  I'll just
add a couple of tidbits:

- I have been looking for Cocoon related jobs in the US and haven't
found a single one (yet).
- There haven't been (yet) any big name companies adopting cocoon
publicly - this would help.
- I have made some wrong assumptions based on names, and other cues
(how well they seem to know the people who I _know_ live in Europe)
only to find they are in the States.
- I think the books have helped visibility here - I've
noticed more name recognition recently when I mention Cocoon.
- I think some here will take a "wait and see" attitude to see if Cocoon
will "jump the pond".
- We need some Cocoon users groups in the US.  I'm in DC and know there's at
least 5-10 regulars on the list from here.  (maybe I'll meet them at John
Callahan's shpiel).

Anyone in DC up for a C.H.U.G.? (Cocoon Hackers & Users Group)

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: John Callahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:33 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
> Jeff,
>
> I live and work in Washington, D.C. USA and see the
> need for Cocoon rising rapidly in government and industry.
> The primary reason is the lack of "content scalability" from
> other solutions (ASP,JSP,CFM).  These technologies suffer
> from poor support for pipelining XML easily and their difficulty
> in handling the myriad of device requirements, i18n, etc.  I do
> believe that the European part of the Cocoon community has
> pioneered these facets of Cocoon due to the need to solve
> their immediate i18n and mobile device problems (see the
> intro part of Carsten & Matthew's book for example).
>
> We're using Cocoon on health care projects that need to
> protect XML content at a fine-grain level based on a user's
> role, context, and state of the data.  Rather than embedding
> this logic completely in the persistence layer or code (a DB
> or EJBs), we're doing it within transforms and actions.  This
> allows us to audit various transactions to ensure they meet
> HIPAA guidelines at a very detailed level and express those
> data security policies as constraints on XPath expressions -
> which non-programmers like physicians can actually read
> and understand! :-)  We've also been able to more easily
> cast their web applications as web services, VoiceXML
> services, and as AvantGo sources (e.g., a directory of
> regional physicians).
>
> Finally, the development and deployment of Cocoon
> solutions are very cost effective (TCD and TCO).  We've
> seen several competitors go out-of-business while trying to
> move to the .NET platform because the cost of retraining and
> retooling was too much for them in the current economy.
> Meanwhile, Java and XML savvy developers are more
> available than ever in our area and most are enthusiastic
> supporters of Open Source efforts.  The Linux/Java/Tomcat/Cocoon
> combo is just right for small companies in the current economy.
> AFAIK, Microsoft still dominates government and industry efforts,
> but they are not nearly as dominant as 2 years ago.
>
> I enjoy the multi-national flavor of Cocoon and see it as a
> great strength.  I'm giving a tutorial on Cocoon next month
> ( http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/ ) here in D.C.  I also noticed
> that Ivelin Ivanov is giving a talk in Austin, TX USA next
> month too ( http://www.xmlaustin.org/_html_out/main/events.html )
>
> -- jack
>
> John R. Callahan
> Sphere Software Corporation - The Intelligence of XML
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeff Ramsdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:48 PM
> Subject: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the
> Cocoon-users list
> > for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> > Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> > Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, &
> Antonio, I
> > don't want to leave you out!) Right?
> >
> > With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon
> is a bit of
> a
> > fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen
> to believe
> > this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is
> why I'm here.
>

Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[John Callahan]

Jeff,

I live and work in Washington, D.C. USA and see the
need for Cocoon rising rapidly in government and industry.
The primary reason is the lack of "content scalability" from
other solutions (ASP,JSP,CFM).  These technologies suffer
from poor support for pipelining XML easily and their difficulty
in handling the myriad of device requirements, i18n, etc.  I do
believe that the European part of the Cocoon community has
pioneered these facets of Cocoon due to the need to solve
their immediate i18n and mobile device problems (see the
intro part of Carsten & Matthew's book for example).

We're using Cocoon on health care projects that need to
protect XML content at a fine-grain level based on a user's
role, context, and state of the data.  Rather than embedding
this logic completely in the persistence layer or code (a DB
or EJBs), we're doing it within transforms and actions.  This
allows us to audit various transactions to ensure they meet
HIPAA guidelines at a very detailed level and express those
data security policies as constraints on XPath expressions -
which non-programmers like physicians can actually read
and understand! :-)  We've also been able to more easily
cast their web applications as web services, VoiceXML
services, and as AvantGo sources (e.g., a directory of
regional physicians).

Finally, the development and deployment of Cocoon
solutions are very cost effective (TCD and TCO).  We've
seen several competitors go out-of-business while trying to
move to the .NET platform because the cost of retraining and
retooling was too much for them in the current economy.
Meanwhile, Java and XML savvy developers are more
available than ever in our area and most are enthusiastic
supporters of Open Source efforts.  The Linux/Java/Tomcat/Cocoon
combo is just right for small companies in the current economy.
AFAIK, Microsoft still dominates government and industry efforts,
but they are not nearly as dominant as 2 years ago.

I enjoy the multi-national flavor of Cocoon and see it as a
great strength.  I'm giving a tutorial on Cocoon next month
( http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/ ) here in D.C.  I also noticed
that Ivelin Ivanov is giving a talk in Austin, TX USA next
month too ( http://www.xmlaustin.org/_html_out/main/events.html )

-- jack

John R. Callahan
Sphere Software Corporation - The Intelligence of XML
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message -
From: "Jeff Ramsdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Cocoon use worldwide


> Hi all,
>
> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list
> for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio, I
> don't want to leave you out!) Right?
>
> With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is a bit of
a
> fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen to believe
> this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm here.
> So here's my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, is
> there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to
Europeans?
> Is there something about the mindset of European programmers that leads
them
> to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on the whole, in
> Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with Microsoft's
> influence in America? I guess that's more than one question! Interested in
> your observations...
>
> Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find
> work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as
> much mindshare here as I think it deserves.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Luca Morandini]

> -Original Message-
> From: Antonio Gallardo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:57 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cocoon use worldwide

> -dont know. I have no acces to printed publications, since BYTE
> (http://www.byte.com) stop sending magazines and I had payed a 2 years
> subscription! 

Antonio,

you should have asked for a full refund... after a couple of months they gave me my 
money back :)

Regards,

- 
   Luca Morandini 
   GIS Consultant 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://utenti.tripod.it/lmorandini/index.html 
-
 


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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Antonio Gallardo]

Jeff Ramsdale dijo:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users
> list for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio,
> I don't want to leave you out!) Right?

I know that, thanks to include me in this philosophical thread.! ;-)

When I started working with Cocoon, I noted that the almost people working
here is from Europe. But to be true I never asked my self about this
inetereting question.

First of all, I think I can speak a little about the 2 worlds. I am from
Nicaragua (from the ones that dont know where is it - my country is the
center of America. Check a map a you will see I am right) ;-)

As a Latinoamerican I had the opportunity to studies my university at
Technical University at Kosice, Slovakia (Please, this is not the old
Yugoslavia, there is Slovenia. Slovakia is from the old Czecholvoakia -
the land of the most beautiful women ;-).

In slovakia I spend 7 years of my life:

1- Learning slovak language
5- Univerity
1- Working for a company called Novitech.

After that my roots called me back to my country, where I am living now.

There in Slovakia, I have contact with the European Mind. Of course in my
country I have always contact with the American Mind.

I think there is really a diference of mind between Americans and
Europeans. You can note it inmediately. Of course I will not talk about
that because this is not the main topic of the thread. I just write it to
tell that there is a diference in many aspects.

I think that Matthew is right. When posted:

> * Cocoon is strong on multi-channel publishing - especially useful for
> application scenarios in the mobile market. There are a lot of differences
> between these markets in Europe and the US. However the US will eventually
> catch up - so watch for Cocoon to become stronger there.

- I can add that believe it or not GSM comes here at the end of 2002. Of
course we used mobile phones since 90-ties but that was CDMA - the
American technology. As a European formed professional I tasted the GSM in
Europe and I always thinked that GSM is better than CDMA. Then here was
not the market that Matthew pointed. Currently with the intro of GSM here
started to talk about "lastest" technology and WML, WAP, etc. I hope this
market will grow in the next years.

> * There are a lot of corporate mergers happening in Europe - and so an
> integration platform is needed. Another of Cocoon's strong points.

- I agree, here this is a unipolar world, even if there are merges or not.
Always is Microsoft. I think this is because of the strong marketing
campaigns that MS do in this part of the world. In my country there is
only a handfull people using technology out of MS. Here the missconception
about all MS is the best is very strong between people. But I fell that
this will change in the next because of the high Licences and the
currently economics problems around the world. Just remember that MS made
many contracs with people at Universities around the world to make sure
new IT professionals will be good trained in the MS way.

I selled my 1st Cocoon project and when customer asked me about the cost
of implementation (Licences of OS, Database, etc.) He does not believe
that the cost will be near zero. And asked me a second time because he was
concerned about legal issues. :-)

> * Cocoon is a European driven project. It was started by an Italian
> and most of the developers are European.

Sorry, I dont agree partially here. There are many other people working
here. Internet breaks the frontiers. Linux was a European driven project,
but now is worldwide. Maybe this reason is only circunstantial right now.
I hope Cocoon will become a worldwide driven project. Maybe here we can
rewrite it:

"Cocoon is a European borned project".

> * The visibility of Cocoon is high in European publications and events
> (magazines, conferences). This again feeds back into the project.

-dont know. I have no acces to printed publications, since BYTE
(http://www.byte.com) stop sending magazines and I had payed a 2 years
subscription! I never pay a subscription again. And in Internet I dont see
from where is the website.

> * There is a strong movement on Open Source in European governments and
> related institutions

Yes, but remember that this movement is wordwide now. The movement on
every country is leaded by diferent people that has his own point of view.
For example: I was mailing with the Argentina's movement and there they
does not like Java because it is not "open source" in the correct sense.
Maybe they are too purist in this things. They prefer perl, python and
similars.

Please, I dont want to start a battle about what language is the best of
the best. I just pointed that because for this movement Cocoon is not part
of the most important things about the movement. Th

Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

I'm just North of you in BC and I'm using Cocoon on my project.

I'm sure there are others, but the 2 biggest things I've seen is the 
lack of diverse clients locally.  By that I mean the really poor 
telephony networks across NA compared to other areas means I rarely see 
or build stuff for local clients that isn't focused on IE as the 
primary client.  For customers that businesses abroad, you get more 
diversity in the devices used and a greater need to support them.
The other thing that I've seen is that many in the Java community focus 
only on JSP frameworks and extensions to them, as opposed to alternate 
standards such as XForms (for example).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 09:48  PM, Jeff Ramsdale wrote:

Hi all,

I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users 
list
for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & 
Antonio, I
don't want to leave you out!) Right?

With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is a bit 
of a
fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen to 
believe
this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm 
here.
So here's my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, 
is
there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to 
Europeans?
Is there something about the mindset of European programmers that 
leads them
to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on the whole, in
Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with Microsoft's
influence in America? I guess that's more than one question! 
Interested in
your observations...

Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to 
find
work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't 
see as
much mindshare here as I think it deserves.

Jeff



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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Derek Hohls]

Matthew
 
Some interesting points - I think that we in Africa are facing
some very tough challenges when it comes to development;
the mindset of many people in the past seems to have 
"Microsoft front and center" but this is perhaps chnaging due
to poor exchange rates and high licensing fees
 
Your last two points are especially applicable for us; there
is the start of a move towards use of OSS in government:
eg. http://www.oss.gov.za
(and the links to some of the press articles; especially the
use of OSS in education is a going to be a "biggie" as it
will help determine the attitude of the next generation...)
 
Derek
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 31/01/2003 09:47:05 
>>>Jeff,an interesting question and one that we have 
discussed before with Stefano.Here are a few reasons I can come up 
with:* Cocoon is strong on multi-channel publishing - especially useful 
forapplication scenarios in the mobile market. There are a lot of 
differencesbetween these markets in Europe and the US. However the US will 
eventuallycatch up - so watch for Cocoon to become stronger there.* 
There are a lot of corporate mergers happening in Europe - and so 
anintegration platform is needed. Another of Cocoon's strong 
points.* Cocoon is a European driven project. It was started by an 
Italian and mostof the developers are European.* There are a lot of 
European companies using Cocoon - which in turn feedsback into the 
project.* The visibility of Cocoon is high in European publications and 
events(magazines, conferences). This again feeds back into the 
project.* There is a strong movement on Open Source in European 
governments andrelated institutions* Open Source is becoming a theme 
for large corporations in Europe. When westarted our humble open source 
group 2 1/2 years ago - no-one wasinterested. Now the story is very 
different.Just my thoughts.Matthew--Open Source 
Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, 
Projects 
}=Matthew 
Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 
PaderbornTel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de-Cocoon 
book:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20Weblogs:  
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/  
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014=> 
-Original Message-> From: Jeff Ramsdale [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]> 
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:48 AM> To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Cocoon use 
worldwide>>> Hi all,>> I'm just curious about 
something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list> for a couple of weeks 
or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and> Australia--Jeff T!) 
interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of> Americans (& 
Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio, I> don't 
want to leave you out!) Right?>> With the utmost respect for the 
Project I observe that Cocoon is> a bit of a> fringe product as 
far as web development is concerned. I happen to believe> this "fringe" 
is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm here.> So here's 
my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, is> there a 
particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to> 
Europeans?> Is there something about the mindset of European programmers 
that> leads them> to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed 
differently, on the whole, in> Europe than America? Does this have 
anything to do with Microsoft's> influence in America? I guess that's 
more than one question! Interested in> your 
observations...>> Reason I ask... I live in Seattle 
(Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find> work using Cocoon and/or Java 
(but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as> much mindshare here as I 
think it deserves.>> Jeff 
-> 
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in 
the> FAQ before posting. >> 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>-Please 
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before posting. To 
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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Derek Hohls]

Whoah - I think those comments were said
with some very gentle humour every person
and culture has their "flaws" and "greatness" -
for example, I dont think we would have such
a thriving IT industry right now without the drive
and passion of the Americans... but certainly,
for myself (speaking as an outsider from the
third world) I do see that they tend to equate and
think in terms of "making money" in many 
things - this of course is a generalisation and,
like all generalisations, not always true!>>> 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 31/01/2003 09:34:21 
>>>Sorry!Could we stop this talk about USA vs. 
Europe.I have a German and U.S. citizenship and I'm sad how the relationship 
isdeveloping right now.Pointing out the weaknesses and advantages of 
these "cultures" won'timprove 
it.;-)JonnyThis 
electronic message contains information from the mmo2 plc Group whichmay 
beprivileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the 
useof theindividual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the 
intended recipientbe awarethat any disclosure, copying, distribution or 
use of the contents of thisinformationis prohibited. If you have 
received this electronic message in error,please notifyus by telephone 
or email (to the numbers or address above) 
immediately.|-+>| 
|   Miles 
Elam   
|| 
|   
| 
|   
t.com>   
|| 
|    
|| 
|   01/31/03 08:08 
AM|| 
|   Please respond 
to|| 
|   
cocoon-users 
|| 
|    
||-+>  
>--|  
|  
|  |   
To:   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
|  |   
cc:                
|  |   Subject:  Re: Cocoon use 
worldwide 
|  
>--|Niclas 
Hedhman wrote:>I think I would agree with your initial assessment 
that there may be>underlying values that infuence the mind set. Exactly 
what it is, I am not>sure, but I don't think it is Microsoft in this 
case.>Perhaps more reasonable is the "overall american attitude" of "I'm 
thebest,>I'm the greatest, I'm gonna get rich.", which promotes 
"proprietaryship"and>"commercialization" of good 
ideas.>Europeans at large are more modest and humble, and have stronger 
need ofbeing>"part of" than "in control of".>Hey!  
Let's not get all morally superior here least someone bring up thelocation 
of the two largest wars in the last century.And let's not forget that 
there are a few natives of the United Statespatching the Linux kernel, 
working on the various BSDs, hanging aroundon these lists, 
etc."Modest and humble" indeed...  ;-)- 
Miles-Please 
check that your question  has not already been answered in theFAQ 
before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>To 
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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Sorin Marti]

Jeff Ramsdale wrote:


Hi all,


[..]




With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is a bit of a
fringe product as far as web development is concerned. 


[...]


is there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to Europeans?
Is there something about the mindset of European programmers that leads them
to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on the whole, in
Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with Microsoft's
influence in America? I guess that's more than one question! Interested in
your observations...

Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find
work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as
much mindshare here as I think it deserves.

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

I am an European, I am Swiss. And as a Swiss I never could explain 
things to you in English as detailed as in my own language. I'll try it 
anyway.

I don't know the situation in the United States but I think there are 
not so many "one-man-companies" as in Europe. We got a lot of little 
companies which can't afford the very expensive products of Microsoft. 
If you work with Linux/Unix Systems you get automatically into the 
open-source world and you start to look around what's good for you.
I could imagine that lots of Americans just don't get in touch with 
open-source-sw because they only use commercial products (which are 
supported by someone so they don't have to solve problems...)

--
in a world without fences and walls who needs gates and windows?


Greetings
	Sorin


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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Jeff Ramsdale]

Goodness! This conversation didn't quite go the direction I intended! I
don't know if we need to argue which is greater, USA or Europe or
pick-your-European-country. I'm just interested in whether there is a
mindset difference and if so what would make Cocoon appeal more to a
European mind.

I don't think one could easily support an argument that one continent or
another has more developers working on open source software than the other.
It might be argued that one continent USES it more, though. Dunno. That's
part of the question, I suppose. I think I'd like to refocus on Cocoon,
though, if ya'll wouldn't mind, just to stay on topic.

Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
>
> Sorry!
>
> Could we stop this talk about USA vs. Europe.
> I have a German and U.S. citizenship and I'm sad how the relationship is
> developing right now.
> Pointing out the weaknesses and advantages of these "cultures" won't
> improve it.
>
> ;-)
> Jonny





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RE: Cocoon use worldwide

[Matthew Langham]

Jeff,

an interesting question and one that we have discussed before with Stefano.
Here are a few reasons I can come up with:

* Cocoon is strong on multi-channel publishing - especially useful for
application scenarios in the mobile market. There are a lot of differences
between these markets in Europe and the US. However the US will eventually
catch up - so watch for Cocoon to become stronger there.

* There are a lot of corporate mergers happening in Europe - and so an
integration platform is needed. Another of Cocoon's strong points.

* Cocoon is a European driven project. It was started by an Italian and most
of the developers are European.

* There are a lot of European companies using Cocoon - which in turn feeds
back into the project.

* The visibility of Cocoon is high in European publications and events
(magazines, conferences). This again feeds back into the project.

* There is a strong movement on Open Source in European governments and
related institutions

* Open Source is becoming a theme for large corporations in Europe. When we
started our humble open source group 2 1/2 years ago - no-one was
interested. Now the story is very different.

Just my thoughts.

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
  http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
  http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=





> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Ramsdale [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Cocoon use worldwide
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list
> for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio, I
> don't want to leave you out!) Right?
>
> With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is
> a bit of a
> fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen to believe
> this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm here.
> So here's my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, is
> there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to
> Europeans?
> Is there something about the mindset of European programmers that
> leads them
> to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on the whole, in
> Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with Microsoft's
> influence in America? I guess that's more than one question! Interested in
> your observations...
>
> Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find
> work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as
> much mindshare here as I think it deserves.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>


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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Johannes . Becker]

Sorry!

Could we stop this talk about USA vs. Europe.
I have a German and U.S. citizenship and I'm sad how the relationship is
developing right now.
Pointing out the weaknesses and advantages of these "cultures" won't
improve it.

;-)
Jonny



This electronic message contains information from the mmo2 plc Group which
may be
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of the
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that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
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|-+>
| |   Miles Elam   |
| |  |
| ||
| |   01/31/03 08:08 AM|
| |   Please respond to|
| |   cocoon-users |
| ||
|-+>
  
>--|
  |
  |
  |   To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  |
  |   cc:  
          |
  |   Subject:  Re: Cocoon use worldwide   
  |
  
>--|




Niclas Hedhman wrote:

>I think I would agree with your initial assessment that there may be
>underlying values that infuence the mind set. Exactly what it is, I am not

>sure, but I don't think it is Microsoft in this case.
>Perhaps more reasonable is the "overall american attitude" of "I'm the
best,
>I'm the greatest, I'm gonna get rich.", which promotes "proprietaryship"
and
>"commercialization" of good ideas.
>Europeans at large are more modest and humble, and have stronger need of
being
>"part of" than "in control of".
>
Hey!  Let's not get all morally superior here least someone bring up the
location of the two largest wars in the last century.

And let's not forget that there are a few natives of the United States
patching the Linux kernel, working on the various BSDs, hanging around
on these lists, etc.

"Modest and humble" indeed...  ;-)

- Miles



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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Miles Elam]

Niclas Hedhman wrote:


I think I would agree with your initial assessment that there may be 
underlying values that infuence the mind set. Exactly what it is, I am not 
sure, but I don't think it is Microsoft in this case.
Perhaps more reasonable is the "overall american attitude" of "I'm the best, 
I'm the greatest, I'm gonna get rich.", which promotes "proprietaryship" and 
"commercialization" of good ideas. 
Europeans at large are more modest and humble, and have stronger need of being 
"part of" than "in control of". 

Hey!  Let's not get all morally superior here least someone bring up the 
location of the two largest wars in the last century.

And let's not forget that there are a few natives of the United States 
patching the Linux kernel, working on the various BSDs, hanging around 
on these lists, etc.

"Modest and humble" indeed...  ;-)

- Miles



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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 31 January 2003 13:48, Jeff Ramsdale wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list
> for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio, I
> don't want to leave you out!) Right?
>
> With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is a bit of a
> fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen to believe
> this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm here.
> So here's my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, is
> there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to
> Europeans? Is there something about the mindset of European programmers
> that leads them to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on
> the whole, in Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with
> Microsoft's influence in America? I guess that's more than one question!
> Interested in your observations...
>
> Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find
> work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as
> much mindshare here as I think it deserves.

Interesting topic.

You might be right. A fair amount of OSS is started and lead by Europe-born 
individuals, although many now lives in the US (Linus for instance).

I think I would agree with your initial assessment that there may be 
underlying values that infuence the mind set. Exactly what it is, I am not 
sure, but I don't think it is Microsoft in this case.
Perhaps more reasonable is the "overall american attitude" of "I'm the best, 
I'm the greatest, I'm gonna get rich.", which promotes "proprietaryship" and 
"commercialization" of good ideas. 
Europeans at large are more modest and humble, and have stronger need of being 
"part of" than "in control of". 

Compare BeOS vs Linux for example. What were the driving forces behind each, 
and which path did they each take? (Also, who is still here?)

Niclas

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