Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

Err, sorry, that email (slightly different) was sent to metzdowd too, which has 
a very long moderation lag.

Emails appear to be approved instantly on this list for subscribers, so this 
doesn't apply:

> - We don't have to wait for emails to be approved and show up

Unless, of course, this list ever goes into "lockdown mode", as some do 
occasionally.

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Benjamin Kreuter]

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Hash: SHA512

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 16:44:24 -0500
Greg  wrote:

> Thoughts?

Can we please *not* do this?  Web forums are horribly annoying places
where we must deal with some other person's conception of what a good
client should look like.

Frankly, after everything that has happened this year, we should be
seeking a more distributed solution, not an even more centralized one
than mailing lists.

- -- Ben



- -- 
Benjamin R Kreuter
KK4FJZ

- --

"If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there
will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public
opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even
if laws exist to protect them." - George Orwell
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Tim]

> Can we please *not* do this?  Web forums are horribly annoying places
> where we must deal with some other person's conception of what a good
> client should look like.
> 
> Frankly, after everything that has happened this year, we should be
> seeking a more distributed solution, not an even more centralized one
> than mailing lists.

+1


tim
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

K, ya'll got some recommendations?

Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.

On Dec 24, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Tim  wrote:

> 
> 
>> Can we please *not* do this?  Web forums are horribly annoying places
>> where we must deal with some other person's conception of what a good
>> client should look like.
>> 
>> Frankly, after everything that has happened this year, we should be
>> seeking a more distributed solution, not an even more centralized one
>> than mailing lists.
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> tim
> ___
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

Also, for whatever reason, two people messaged me offlist saying that they 
supported the idea.

On-list support would be more helpful though, as currently it looks like 
there's two votes "No" and only one vote "yes".

One of them offered free hosting:

I'll spawn a VM on a private box in our [redacted], install the OS, install
SMF and host it for free in perpetuity if you can get critical mass and
find people to admin
it etc.

--
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the NSA.

On Dec 24, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Greg  wrote:

> K, ya'll got some recommendations?
> 
> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?
> 
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
> 
> On Dec 24, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Tim  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Can we please *not* do this?  Web forums are horribly annoying places
>>> where we must deal with some other person's conception of what a good
>>> client should look like.
>>> 
>>> Frankly, after everything that has happened this year, we should be
>>> seeking a more distributed solution, not an even more centralized one
>>> than mailing lists.
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> 
>> tim
>> ___
>> cryptography mailing list
>> cryptography@randombit.net
>> http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
> 
> ___
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

Oh wait, I got confused. The subjects said [Cryptography], not [cryptography], 
which means they were replying to the @metzdowd list post.

--
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On Dec 24, 2013, at 6:43 PM, Greg  wrote:

> Also, for whatever reason, two people messaged me offlist saying that they 
> supported the idea.
> 
> On-list support would be more helpful though, as currently it looks like 
> there's two votes "No" and only one vote "yes".
> 
> One of them offered free hosting:
> 
> I'll spawn a VM on a private box in our [redacted], install the OS, install
> SMF and host it for free in perpetuity if you can get critical mass and
> find people to admin
> it etc.
> 
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
> 
> On Dec 24, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Greg  wrote:
> 
>> K, ya'll got some recommendations?
>> 
>> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?
>> 
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
>> with the NSA.
>> 
>> On Dec 24, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Tim  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 Can we please *not* do this?  Web forums are horribly annoying places
 where we must deal with some other person's conception of what a good
 client should look like.
 
 Frankly, after everything that has happened this year, we should be
 seeking a more distributed solution, not an even more centralized one
 than mailing lists.
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> tim
>>> ___
>>> cryptography mailing list
>>> cryptography@randombit.net
>>> http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
>> 
>> ___
>> cryptography mailing list
>> cryptography@randombit.net
>> http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
> 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Malcolm Matalka]

> - Easier and faster to administer and moderate
Whether or not the current setup is difficult and slow to administer is
something only the current administrators are in a position to judge.

> - You can actually *edit* your posts to correct typos and mistakes (amazing!)
Not compelling.  For starters, I don't like history being modifiable.
Secondly, most spelling errors aren't bad enough to negate an entire
post, so editing them isn't a sufficiently strong argument for moving
everything to another location.  People can always send a follow-up
email.

> - Conversations are organized better
My email client organizes conversations just how I like it.

> - Nobody complaining about "top posting", trimming "cruft" and other such 
> nonsense
I haven't noticed this on here...

> - An easy to search and read public log of all conversations
I can search my emails just fine.

> - Emoticons
> - Stars
> - Badges
> - Bells
> - I hear they have whistles too
Not compelling at all,

Greg  writes:

> I've used both phpBB and simplemachines, and far prefer the latter for its 
> simpler configuration, administration, and what seem like superior 
> spam-fighting capabilities.
>
> The advantages are almost too numerous to list, and if people like getting 
> the message via email then the software can be configured to include it in 
> the notification emails that are sent out.
>
> Forums are simply superior to mailing lists in almost all respects (perhaps 
> all).
>
> - Easier and faster to administer and moderate
> - We don't have to wait for emails to be approved and show up
> - You can actually *edit* your posts to correct typos and mistakes (amazing!)
> - Conversations are organized better
> - Nobody complaining about "top posting", trimming "cruft" and other such 
> nonsense
> - An easy to search and read public log of all conversations
> - Emoticons
> - Stars
> - Badges
> - Bells
> - I hear they have whistles too
>
> Pretty please?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
>
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[stef]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:54:51PM +, Malcolm Matalka wrote:
> > - Nobody complaining about "top posting", trimming "cruft" and other such 
> > nonsense

calling etiquette nonsense

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:01 PM, stef  wrote:
>>> - Nobody complaining about "top posting", trimming "cruft" and other such 
>>> nonsense
> 
> calling etiquette nonsense

You misunderstand me. I understand it is a polite thing to do.

Yes, it is polite to go out of your way for others because their email clients 
don't automatically trim the cruft for them.

Likewise, and for these very reasons, it would be polite to setup a forum where 
none of this is necessary anymore, simply because forums don't have this 
problem.

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Raymond Burkholder]

> Subject: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?
> Thoughts?

If this moved to a forum, I'd probably not read it.  I receive messages from
many different services, and if I had to remember to go online to read
messages, it wouldn't happen.  

With the current system, messages appear in my inbox with messages from
other list exchanges.  It provides a simple central mechanism for reading
and responding to the various messages I receive.

On the other hand, if the forum emailed messages with a 'reply link' as
messages are posted, that would be an acceptable alternative.  


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:06 PM, Raymond Burkholder  wrote:
> If this moved to a forum, I'd probably not read it.  I receive messages from
> many different services, and if I had to remember to go online to read
> messages, it wouldn't happen.  


So, this might come as a shock to you, but as the first email mentioned, forum 
software can be easily configured to reproduce the behavior of a mailing list.

You can subscribe to individual threads, and you can even subscribe to 
individual forums.

That means that whenever someone posts a new thread, or a reply to a thread, 
you'll get an email about it. If the admins configured the forum to include the 
message, you'll get the entire message in that email as well.

> On the other hand, if the forum emailed messages with a 'reply link' as
> messages are posted, that would be an acceptable alternative.  


All forums do this by default.

It's possible (via a plugin usually), to even have it setup where you can reply 
to the email notification and have your reply appear as a post in the forums.

You'd have all the behavior of this list, plus all the features this list 
doesn't have (like editing, or being notified only about the topics that 
interest you).

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Aaron Turner]

This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither high
traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.

--
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Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?

Show of hands?

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On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:

> This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither high
> traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.
> 
> --
> Aaron Turner
> http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
> Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
>-- Benjamin Franklin
> ___
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> cryptography@randombit.net
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Eduardo Robles Elvira]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 25/12/13 01:41, Aaron Turner wrote:
> This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither
> high traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.

Hello people:

I have heard worse requests. Remember these words: in the future,
people will start to recomend moving mailing list to facebook groups.
I've heard such requests already in some lists. I guess a good
argument might be "if the NSA is going to spy us, let's just use their
infrastructure". Unbelivable. People will never learn.

Regards,
Eduardo
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Aaron Turner]

You don't need to ask permission to create a forum.  Just do it.  If
enough people sign up, create accounts and move their discussions from
here to there then you'll have your answer.  Asking for a "show of
hands" is probably the least scientific way of answering this
question. Far better to test the theory. Just keep this list the way
it is.  People will vote with their feet.  I for one won't be joining
you, but I won't stop you.
--
Aaron Turner
http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin


On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Greg  wrote:
> I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
> there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?
>
> Show of hands?
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
>
> On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:
>
>> This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither high
>> traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Turner
>> http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
>> Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
>> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
>>-- Benjamin Franklin
>> ___
>> cryptography mailing list
>> cryptography@randombit.net
>> http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
>
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Kevin]

On 12/24/2013 4:44 PM, Greg wrote:

I've used both phpBB and simplemachines, and far prefer the latter for its 
simpler configuration, administration, and what seem like superior 
spam-fighting capabilities.

The advantages are almost too numerous to list, and if people like getting the 
message via email then the software can be configured to include it in the 
notification emails that are sent out.

Forums are simply superior to mailing lists in almost all respects (perhaps 
all).

- Easier and faster to administer and moderate
- We don't have to wait for emails to be approved and show up
- You can actually *edit* your posts to correct typos and mistakes (amazing!)
- Conversations are organized better
- Nobody complaining about "top posting", trimming "cruft" and other such 
nonsense
- An easy to search and read public log of all conversations
- Emoticons
- Stars
- Badges
- Bells
- I hear they have whistles too

Pretty please?

Thoughts?

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I do like forums for many of the same reasons.  However, email is 
something that would be checked more often.  This is why I must 
personally vote no.  That's just me; don't all jump down my throat.



--
Kevin

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Patrick Mylund Nielsen]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

>
> [but I would vote strongly for having the list archived online!  That
> makes searches of old threads and most every other 'benefit' of a forum
> available while not messing up the ongoing discussion mechanism at all]


Already happening: http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/


I'm also strongly opposed to moving away from email. It's the same thing as
trying to replace email. Email won't die. Forum software like phpBB, SMF
and vBulletin, is old, clunky and, ironically for this group, riddled with
security holes. (Discourse http://www.discourse.org/ looks a little more
interesting.)

I've been parts of groups that wanted to migrate from email to a forum more
times than I can count, and it has always failed. "It's just not as easy."
I'm not sold on being able to revise what you said, or on adding smileys
and meme gifs, either.
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Benjamin Kreuter]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:40:29 -0500
Greg  wrote:

> K, ya'll got some recommendations?

Stick with the mailing list.  If we are going to move anywhere, it
should be toward something like a moderated Usenet newsgroup (if not
actually moving to Usenet).

> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?

No, but it is worth it to be able to use the client of my choosing, to
be able to read messages offline, to be able to sign messages and check
signatures on messages, etc.  The list is archived by multiple
different services, and can be accessed via gmane if one wishes.  On a
web forum, in exchange for the ability to edit my posts and a few other
minor conveniences, I would lost all of that and more.

-- Ben



-- 
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KK4FJZ

--

"If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there
will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public
opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even
if laws exist to protect them." - George Orwell


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Bernie Cosell]

On 24 Dec 2013 at 20:06, Raymond Burkholder wrote:

> > Subject: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?
> > Thoughts?
> 
> If this moved to a forum, I'd probably not read it.  I receive messages
> from
> many different services, and if I had to remember to go online to read
> messages, it wouldn't happen.  

I agree -- I don't have the time or care to go visit dozens of websites 
each day, just to check if there's any activity in THIS forum or THAT 
one.  I find it very convenient having it all come to me.

> With the current system, messages appear in my inbox with messages
> from
> other list exchanges.  It provides a simple central mechanism for
> reading
> and responding to the various messages I receive.

Also, for me, I'm on many mailing lists that are *related* and I sort 
those into _single_ folders.   So all of my 'security' stuff goes into 
one place, all of the 'craft/hobby' lists are collected in a separate 
place, etc.  The fact that there are six hobby lists is irrelevant: they 
all end up just in my 'hobby' folder -- I don't have to visit six sites.

In fact, this is a case in point: there are two cryptography lists that 
are similar but different.  I filter them both into the same folder [and 
my only quandry is if I want to post I need to pick "to which", but I 
never have to do anything to follow both effortlessly].

> On the other hand, if the forum emailed messages with a 'reply link'
> as
> messages are posted, that would be an acceptable alternative.  

Not quite: Most forums postings don't any context -- they just expect 
that their post will "follow next" in the forum [even when that's not 
true!] and so they just type away.  So if you get just an email message, 
it'll be VERY cryptic trying to piece together what's going on, 
especially if a single topic has two discussion threads interweaving 
within in.

I haven't seen a forum that lets you "save" messages -- if the new PHPbb 
does that'd be great.   PHPbb has never been very good at keeping track 
of what you've seen and what you haven't: if you visit the forum and only 
read some of the new posts, you generally won't get a second [easy] 
chance to find it [there's no mechanism I've seen for the equivalent of 
leaving something unread in your list-folder to be dealt with later].  Do 
forums let you 'print' messages?  Can you 'forward' messages?   Can you 
'save/archive' threads that are particularly interesting?

I happen to not much like the format of most online forums other folk 
love them.  I'm not impressed with 'BBcodes' and the few-score emoticons 
it allows.   I know some peolple really like that, but not me.

My vote is to stay as an email list.

   /Bernie\


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[scarp]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Forums can't be centrally managed in one application as easily as
mailing lists with filters can be. They are also a lot slower when
used over Tor.

When you're a member of a lot of lists it's a lot easier to set up a
few filters in your mail client to put those messages in specific
folders and then simply sift through those unread messages that are
relevant to you.

If this list moved to a forum I wouldn't bother visiting it, I am sure
others would agree as this topic comes up from time to time on other
lists.

I simply don't have the time to open a dozen forums and look at posts
on them. They are also less PGP friendly and things like FireGPG
aren't supported anymore.

As for editing posts, there should be no reason a user has to do this.

Learn to proof read your messages before you hit "Send".

- -- 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[brian.otto]

You would need to do some research, but there are forum plugins out there that 
allow people who only want to communicate through the mailing list to keep 
doing that.

For example: https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2099210
A list-forum bridge connects a forum to a mailing list. Messages sent to the 
mailing list are posted to the forum. Posts to the forum are sent out as 
messages to the mailing list.
Brian


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:47 PM, Jonathan Thornburg  
wrote:

> Do NOT move to a web forum: that would require typing submissions into
> a web-browser comment box

Perhaps part of the reason folks are wary of forums is because they think 
they'll lose what they love about mailing lists.

As I explained in the reply to Raymond, this actually isn't true.

A forum could be setup to reproduce all the behaviors of this list (and 
actually improve upon them).

Given that, what objections can there be?

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[StealthMonger]

Greg  writes:

> Forums are simply superior to mailing lists in almost all respects
> (perhaps all). ...

> Thoughts?

How can an untraceable pseudonym, such as me, post to a forum?

(Don't say Tor -- Tor is connection based and deliberately low-latency,
so the source can be identified with IP packet correlation attacks.
Untraceable pseudonyms use anonymizing remailers, which are
message-based and deliberately high latency.)

-- 


 -- StealthMonger 
Long, random latency is part of the price of Internet anonymity.

   anonget: Is this anonymous browsing, or what?
   
http://groups.google.ws/group/alt.privacy.anon-server/msg/073f34abb668df33?dmode=source&output=gplain

   stealthmail: Hide whether you're doing email, or when, or with whom.
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Benjamin Kreuter]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:56:32 -0500
Greg  wrote:

> It would be interesting, actually, to see whether the list's software
> could be automatically integrated with a forum like SMF.

Nobody needs to modify the list's software.  You can just have your
forum's web server receive the mailing list's messages and display them
as forum posts.  That is part of the beauty of mailing lists:  nobody
dictates what sort of software will receive or display the messages.

> I don't know how edits would be handled though.

They wouldn't.  Why do you consider edits to be such an important
feature?  Usually a followup message to the effect of, "Oops, typo" is
sufficient, and usually only needed for errors that might alter the
meaning of a sentence.

Here is a more important question to consider:  how might you enable
"editing" of posts *without* requiring a central authority that stores
and displays messages?  While there is some level of centralization on
the list (moderation, the list server itself), the messages themselves
are not stored in a single place.  I can read messages offline, and
even reply to messages offline (my mail client will queue the messages
until I have a connection).  Numerous archives exist, so that even if
one archive fails the messages can still be found.  Losing that for the
sake of editing posts seems like a bad deal to me.

-- Ben



-- 
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KK4FJZ

--

"If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there
will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public
opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even
if laws exist to protect them." - George Orwell


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg Broiles]

It doesn't really make sense to think about moving. There are two separate
operations: the creation of a new thing, and the termination of the old
thing. If you want to make a new thing, nobody can stop you. If the
existing subscribers and the existing mailing list operator(s) don't
terminate the old thing, you can't stop them, either.

I am not interested in a web forum; but I'm pretty sure it would be easy to
pipe mailing list messages into a web forum if someone is really motivated
to read them in that format.

"Moving to a web forum" has been, in my observation, a very good way to
silently kill an otherwise helpful/productive mailing list. I'm not saying
that's a goal/motivation of the current proposal, but I think it's a likely
outcome.

It also provides an opportunity for the people who control the webserver to
control the discussion and the archives. In the current climate, that
sounds like a risk to all parties involved.

-- 
Greg Broiles
gbroi...@gmail.com
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Matt Ryanczak]

+1. passive listener here. please stick with email!

On 12/24/13, 4:58 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2013 at 20:06, Raymond Burkholder wrote:
> 
>>> Subject: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?
>>> Thoughts?
>>
>> If this moved to a forum, I'd probably not read it.  I receive messages
>> from
>> many different services, and if I had to remember to go online to read
>> messages, it wouldn't happen.  
> 
> I agree -- I don't have the time or care to go visit dozens of websites 
> each day, just to check if there's any activity in THIS forum or THAT 
> one.  I find it very convenient having it all come to me.
> 
>> With the current system, messages appear in my inbox with messages
>> from
>> other list exchanges.  It provides a simple central mechanism for
>> reading
>> and responding to the various messages I receive.
> 
> Also, for me, I'm on many mailing lists that are *related* and I sort 
> those into _single_ folders.   So all of my 'security' stuff goes into 
> one place, all of the 'craft/hobby' lists are collected in a separate 
> place, etc.  The fact that there are six hobby lists is irrelevant: they 
> all end up just in my 'hobby' folder -- I don't have to visit six sites.
> 
> In fact, this is a case in point: there are two cryptography lists that 
> are similar but different.  I filter them both into the same folder [and 
> my only quandry is if I want to post I need to pick "to which", but I 
> never have to do anything to follow both effortlessly].
> 
>> On the other hand, if the forum emailed messages with a 'reply link'
>> as
>> messages are posted, that would be an acceptable alternative.  
> 
> Not quite: Most forums postings don't any context -- they just expect 
> that their post will "follow next" in the forum [even when that's not 
> true!] and so they just type away.  So if you get just an email message, 
> it'll be VERY cryptic trying to piece together what's going on, 
> especially if a single topic has two discussion threads interweaving 
> within in.
> 
> I haven't seen a forum that lets you "save" messages -- if the new PHPbb 
> does that'd be great.   PHPbb has never been very good at keeping track 
> of what you've seen and what you haven't: if you visit the forum and only 
> read some of the new posts, you generally won't get a second [easy] 
> chance to find it [there's no mechanism I've seen for the equivalent of 
> leaving something unread in your list-folder to be dealt with later].  Do 
> forums let you 'print' messages?  Can you 'forward' messages?   Can you 
> 'save/archive' threads that are particularly interesting?
> 
> I happen to not much like the format of most online forums other folk 
> love them.  I'm not impressed with 'BBcodes' and the few-score emoticons 
> it allows.   I know some peolple really like that, but not me.
> 
> My vote is to stay as an email list.
> 
>/Bernie\
> 
> 

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Peter Todd]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 10:33:08PM -0500, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> So that's not a handy archive.   But the first archive you mention is 
> great -- I didn't know it existed: it should be publicized or something.  
> I don't know if the RFCs permit it, but could there be a
> 
>   list-archive:
> 
> header?  It'd be out of the way but easy to find [and only a click away 
> in many eamil clients].

Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm, but just look in the headers of this
email:

List-Archive: 

> [but as a footnote, this one needs a search option -- how would you find 
> the posts in which we had discussed TDES?

mail-archive.com has a search function, and the "official" archive is
indexed by Google.

-- 
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Krassimir Tzvetanov]

This _was_ a good quality very high signal to noise ratio list but over the
past 3 months had turned into a very noisy, full of social chatter one.

I am thinking there is a way to combine the best of both worlds by moving
the social element to a forum and keep the legit content on the mailing
list.

Cheers,
Krassimir



On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:

> This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither high
> traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.
>
> --
> Aaron Turner
> http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
> Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
> -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:48 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:

> You don't need to ask permission to create a forum.  Just do it. 

I'm not asking for permission.

I'm gauging interest. :-)

No sense in wasting time if it's clear there's no interest.

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Peter Todd]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 07:43:12PM -0500, Greg wrote:
> I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
> there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?
> 
> Show of hands?

I mostly lurk and I strongly prefer a mailing list solution.

I'm in the Bitcoin community and we keep on talking about fully
decentralized backends to mailing lists/usenet replacements, but until
something like that is implemented, best to stick with the tried and
true mailing list. When something like that is implemented, it's gonna
look rather like a mailing list...

Mailing lists are great infrastructure: a pragmatic centralized core to push
messages around/moderate, and a whole host of decentralized
infrastructure around them like multiple archiving services and a wide
variety of client software to interface with.

I also note that it's a pain in the butt to PGP sign message board
posts, this is Cryptography after all...

-- 
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Peter Todd]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:03:31PM -0500, Benjamin Kreuter wrote:
> > I mostly lurk and I strongly prefer a mailing list solution.
> > 
> > I'm in the Bitcoin community and we keep on talking about fully
> > decentralized backends to mailing lists/usenet replacements,
> 
> Out of curiosity, where do you see centralization in Usenet?  The only
> thing that comes to my mind are moderated newsgroups.

Moderation and spam control - both involve trusting centralized humans.

Keep in mind, this is Bitcoin we're talking about: we have very high
standards for what we call "decentralized". Equally we have very
suductive solutions to such distastful brushes with humanity in the form
of throwing proof-of-work, or better yet transferrable proof-of-work(1),
at the problem. Previously known as hashcash of course, but much more
usable this time around because there's actually a market for the stuff
in the form of Bitcoins so attackers don't have an advantage. Of course,
such pure solutions have real world drawbacks - like rich wankers
flooding your forums with junk because they can afford too - but they've
also never been tried in real-life so there's a lot of interest in doing
just that. Who knows if it'll actually work in practice, but all the
more reason to try.

In the meantime mailing lists are an excellent compromise.


1) https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds - Disclaimer: I invented
   them. Also "Just use fidelity bonds!" is a standard joke in the
   Bitcoin developer community, and for good reason.

-- 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Benjamin Kreuter]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 21:36:46 -0500
Peter Todd  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 07:43:12PM -0500, Greg wrote:
> > I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire
> > list's, or are there folks out there lurking who would actually
> > appreciate a forum?
> > 
> > Show of hands?
> 
> I mostly lurk and I strongly prefer a mailing list solution.
> 
> I'm in the Bitcoin community and we keep on talking about fully
> decentralized backends to mailing lists/usenet replacements,

Out of curiosity, where do you see centralization in Usenet?  The only
thing that comes to my mind are moderated newsgroups.

-- Ben



-- 
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KK4FJZ

--

"If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there
will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public
opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even
if laws exist to protect them." - George Orwell


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

On Dec 24, 2013, at 9:02 PM, StealthMonger  wrote:

> Greg  writes:
> 
>> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?
> 
> What kind of software do you suppose people are using, that might
> interfere with editing comments?
> Also, if you're so big on editing, why don't you edit your own postings?

We seem to be using the word "edit" completely differently.

I can't correct mistakes in an email that was sent.

> Or is it that you're ignorant of RFC 1855, Netiquette Guidelines?  There
> it is stated among other things that "It is extremely bad form to simply
> reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all
> the irrelevant material."


It was acknowledged in the first email, and again in the reply to stef.

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Matthew Bentley]

I, too, mostly lurk, and I would much prefer a mailing list for the
reasons stated, but mostly because it is much easier to use PGP with
email than web forums.

On 12/24/2013 06:36 PM, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 07:43:12PM -0500, Greg wrote:
>> I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
>> there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?
>>
>> Show of hands?
> 
> I mostly lurk and I strongly prefer a mailing list solution.
> 
> I also note that it's a pain in the butt to PGP sign message board
> posts, this is Cryptography after all...
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Peter Todd]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 09:39:22PM -0500, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> *even*?  So it isnt' "just like" a mailing list at all.  Since I replied 
> to this post by hitting 'r' in my email client... and out it went.
> 
> I know PHPbb has gotten a lot fancier, but I still think that it is not 
> near as convenient as a mailing list.
> 
> [but I would vote strongly for having the list archived online!  That 
> makes searches of old threads and most every other 'benefit' of a forum 
> available while not messing up the ongoing discussion mechanism at all]

There's multiple archives of this mailing list, and starting you own is
trivial:

http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/
https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@randombit.net

IMO ease of archiving and ease of passing around archives is one of the
biggest strengths of mailing lists.

-- 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Bernie Cosell]

On 24 Dec 2013 at 21:43, Peter Todd wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 09:39:22PM -0500, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> > [but I would vote strongly for having the list archived online!  That
> > makes searches of old threads and most every other 'benefit' of a
> forum 
> > available while not messing up the ongoing discussion mechanism at
> all]
> 
> There's multiple archives of this mailing list, and starting you own
> is
> trivial:

Starting your own isn't helpful for this situation: you can't search for 
threads and refereneces that appeared before you joined the list.   If 
you're a newcomer and you see a 'reply', you can't go back to the head of 
the thread to see what they were talking about.

And I know I can archive stuff myself [easily!] via the email list, but 
I'd rather not have to store thousands of email messages on the off 
chance that some time in the future I might want to dig for something -- 
I'd really prefer there be a public "master" archive.

[of course within that, the very nice thing is that I can make a "little 
archive": just keeping the threads that I really am interested in, or 
marking them 'unread' as I archive them to remind me that i need to spend 
time looking more closely at them]

> http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/
> https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@randombit.net
> 
> IMO ease of archiving and ease of passing around archives is one of
> the
> biggest strengths of mailing lists.

I agree!  But I think there should be at least one "official" one -- that 
is, one that is actually tasked with archiving the list and not just a 
happenstance archive.  For example, right now, I can't connect to 
www.mail-archive.com at all.  Firefox complains:

Unable to connect

Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at 
www.mail-archive.com

and I tried to lynx to it from a different server and got

Looking up www.mail-archive.com first
Looking up www.mail-archive.com
Making HTTP connection to www.mail-archive.com
Alert!: Unable to connect to remote host.

So that's not a handy archive.   But the first archive you mention is 
great -- I didn't know it existed: it should be publicized or something.  
I don't know if the RFCs permit it, but could there be a

  list-archive:

header?  It'd be out of the way but easy to find [and only a click away 
in many eamil clients].

[but as a footnote, this one needs a search option -- how would you find 
the posts in which we had discussed TDES?

   /Bernie\

-- 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Don Saklad]

An aside from these exchanges with points of views about preferring the format 
of a forum, or not... Would you kind folks have any ideas about how to arrange 
listserv settings to resolve difficulties we experience from a listserv, 
opera-l , where participants can be less familiar with the mechanism of how to 
post plain text. Nonplain text posts arriving by email contain extraneous 
characters and have discontinuous lines not wrapped well. Another listserv, 
foi-l , has been set so all participants' posts arrive by email without 
extraneous characters and without discontinuous lines not wrapped well. One 
listserv got setup without resolving posts of nonplain text. Another listserv 
got setup so participants' posts don't have extraneous stuff.

Or what forums or lists would be good for this enquiry !?...
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[StealthMonger]

Greg  writes:

> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?

What kind of software do you suppose people are using, that might
interfere with editing comments?

Also, if you're so big on editing, why don't you edit your own postings?
Or is it that you're ignorant of RFC 1855, Netiquette Guidelines?  There
it is stated among other things that "It is extremely bad form to simply
reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all
the irrelevant material."


-- 


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Bernie Cosell]

On 24 Dec 2013 at 19:40, Greg wrote:

> So, this might come as a shock to you, but as the first email mentioned,
> forum software can be easily configured to reproduce the behavior of a
> mailing list.

Can you elaborate?  I've never seen a forum that did so.

> You can subscribe to individual threads, and you can even subscribe to
> individual forums.
> 
> That means that whenever someone posts a new thread, or a reply to a
> thread, you'll get an email about it.

I *do* get that and it is basically useless: it means I have go to my 
browser, go to the forum, log in, and then sort out what the new stuff 
was [and in my experience, it isn't very good at keeping track of what 
you've seen and what you haven't, so if you don't look at everything 
that's new, many forums "forget"].

> .. If the admins configured the forum
> to include the message, you'll get the entire message in that email as
> well.

That's not useful (for me), either: will that thread in my email client?  
If I want to save/archive a thread, is there some clean way to do that? 
Can I just hit "reply" and have the right thing happen?  [the forums I've 
used that have that feature, just send me a message that says "there's 
been a reply to your message  click here to view the thread" and 
since I run a moderately tight ship, I then have to *log*in* to the forum 
[and for some, that loses the link and it doesn't get me to the right 
thread anyway].  If I forward it to a friend or print it out, will it 
happen "just like" on a mailing list [in terms of what the recipient sees 
or what gets printed out]?

> It's possible (via a plugin usually), to even have it setup where you
> can reply to the email notification and have your reply appear as a post
> in the forums.

*even*?  So it isnt' "just like" a mailing list at all.  Since I replied 
to this post by hitting 'r' in my email client... and out it went.

I know PHPbb has gotten a lot fancier, but I still think that it is not 
near as convenient as a mailing list.

[but I would vote strongly for having the list archived online!  That 
makes searches of old threads and most every other 'benefit' of a forum 
available while not messing up the ongoing discussion mechanism at all]

  /Bernie\
-- 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

Actually, let me clarify that a bit:

I'm also, as the title of this email suggests, making a proposal about this 
list in particular.

It would be interesting, actually, to see whether the list's software could be 
automatically integrated with a forum like SMF.

I don't know how edits would be handled though.

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:51 PM, Greg  wrote:

> On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:48 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:
> 
>> You don't need to ask permission to create a forum.  Just do it. 
> 
> I'm not asking for permission.
> 
> I'm gauging interest. :-)
> 
> No sense in wasting time if it's clear there's no interest.
> 
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
> 
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Erick Staal]

+1 from here as well.


On 12/25/2013 06:02 AM, Matt Ryanczak wrote:

+1. passive listener here. please stick with email!

On 12/24/13, 4:58 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Jonathan Thornburg]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013, Greg wrote:
> Show of hands?

Stay with mailing list.  Or create a usenet newsgroup.
Either of this keeps track of not-yet-read posts, groups posts into
threads, and allows composing new submissions in a convenient editing
environment.  

Do NOT move to a web forum: that would require typing submissions into
a web-browser comment box, a "user interface" just slightly less awful
than using a keypunch machine and punch-card reader.

-- 
-- "Jonathan Thornburg [remove -animal to reply]" 

   Dept of Astronomy & IUCSS, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA
   "There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched
at any given moment.  How often, or on what system, the Thought Police
plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.  It was even conceivable
that they watched everybody all the time."  -- George Orwell, "1984"
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Peter Todd]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 09:34:57PM -0500, Greg wrote:
> On Dec 24, 2013, at 9:02 PM, StealthMonger  
> wrote:
> 
> > Greg  writes:
> > 
> >> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?
> > 
> > What kind of software do you suppose people are using, that might
> > interfere with editing comments?
> > Also, if you're so big on editing, why don't you edit your own postings?
> 
> We seem to be using the word "edit" completely differently.
> 
> I can't correct mistakes in an email that was sent.

Yes you can, reply to it and tell everyone what mistakes were in the
first one.

That history can be edited is a serious problem with webforums;
in the bitcoin community people keep talking about removing/changing the
edit functionality on bitcointalk.org to give cryptographic and
timestamped proof of what edits were made and by whome. It's been hacked
a few times now and there's doubt if the archives on the site are
accurate.

Mailing lists are much less succeptable to that problem, and fixing it
is much easier and can be done without anyone's permission - a good
thing.

-- 
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00026c4c027b8c680e2ff000b6b70bb10f70771b9a05868c613e


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Natanael]

To those asking for a decentralized and anonymous solution - there is
Syndie on I2P, but I doubt that anyone here will like the interface or the
excessive slowness of the entire thing. Fetching lists of conversations can
take hours, and you don't really know if posts are missing or not.

Then there's Bitmessage. That's arguably worse than Syndie (scalability and
can't work well on mobile clients, and it isn't anonymous unless used over
Tor).

There's a few decentralized social networking systems in development too
(some meant to be hosted on servers and federated, some more P2P style).

If you want a decentralized forum, then there isn't all that many good
options right now. You'll have to wait or make one yourself.

Currently I'm fine with sticking to the mailing list.

- Sent from my phone
Den 25 dec 2013 07:25 skrev "Erick Staal" :

> +1 from here as well.
>
>
> On 12/25/2013 06:02 AM, Matt Ryanczak wrote:
>
>> +1. passive listener here. please stick with email!
>>
>> On 12/24/13, 4:58 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
>>
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Nicholas Bohm]

  
  
On 25/12/2013 00:43, Greg wrote:


  I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?

Show of hands?




As long as I get the messages in my email inbox and can get my
replies to subscribers by replying to the email, then why should I
care how that's achieved?  But having to go to a forum would be a
royal pain.

Nicholas
-- 
  Contact
  and PGP key here

  

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[stargrave]

*** Nicholas Bohm  [2013-12-25 18:40]:
>I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
>the
>re folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?
I am just an ordinary reader here, but personally I am strongly against
forums. I won't read them anyway, I do not believe people are willing to
replace their reliable configured comofortable to work with personal
email software with someone's Web-based thought of better user
interface. Personally configured email client is always will be more
convenient way to work with, ability to work offline, search list
archives offline, robustness if list mailserver is down, not resource
and network traffic (relatively) wastefull client and server software.
I assume NNTP Usenet-like services is better choice, but modern
maillists are very good from most point of views.

-- 
Happy hacking, Sergey Matveev
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Alex J. Martin]

I would rather retain the mailing list.

On 25/12/2013 00:43, Greg wrote:

I'm curious, is Aaron's response representative of the entire list's, or are 
there folks out there lurking who would actually appreciate a forum?

Show of hands?

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.

On Dec 24, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Aaron Turner  wrote:


This is a solution in search of a problem.  This list is neither high
traffic or diverse enough to warrant a forum.

--
Aaron Turner
http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Bryan Bishop]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Greg  wrote:
> I've used both phpBB and simplemachines, and far prefer the latter for its 
> simpler configuration, administration, and what seem like superior 
> spam-fighting capabilities.

I have seen similar requests on other mailing lists, including those
running mailman . On the DIYbio mailing list (about ~3000 users), a
handful of individuals had the idea that they could just ask the
mailing list to be shut down and all the content ported to a forum. So
I challenged one of them to write a mail2forum gateway. There is no
particular reason why a forum couldn't also function as a mailing list
(as Google Groups is pathetically trying to do), with email replies to
threads etc. The current "get notified by email" features aren't the
same thing.

Jake Stew  wrote a mail2forum gateway for phpBB and
began using it with the diybio mailing list. What's interesting is
that nobody used it except for him, not even the others who were
wanting a forum in the first place. I don't really have an opinion on
this result, but it's sort of funny, and worth sharing, so there you
go. Maybe bug him for the phpBB plugin and start using it if you
really prefer phpBB or ikonboard or HyperVBulletin or whatever the
latest malware is called.

What's particularly funny is that Google Groups was trying to pivot
their content into a forum (and at the same time murdering all of
their USENET content, I guess they don't have thorough automatic
tests...). You can see it all over their UI because of their
half-assed attempt to convert from using the word "groups" to
"forums". I think in part this was an attempt to convince users to use
the web UI as a forum, but when people say forum what they really mean
is something like Infopop UBB and anything from 1998-2004 that matches
the same pattern.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Alexander Klimov]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013, Greg wrote:
> The advantages are almost too numerous to list,

I prefer mail, but let a hundred flowers bloom, for whoever switches 
to a web forum deserves it :-)

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ASK
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Greg]

Hmm, interesting, thanks for sharing that Bryan! :-)

Looks like the list has spoken, and the answer seems to be a resounding "No!"

Cheers,
Greg

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.

On Dec 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Bryan Bishop  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Greg  wrote:
>> I've used both phpBB and simplemachines, and far prefer the latter for its 
>> simpler configuration, administration, and what seem like superior 
>> spam-fighting capabilities.
> 
> I have seen similar requests on other mailing lists, including those
> running mailman . On the DIYbio mailing list (about ~3000 users), a
> handful of individuals had the idea that they could just ask the
> mailing list to be shut down and all the content ported to a forum. So
> I challenged one of them to write a mail2forum gateway. There is no
> particular reason why a forum couldn't also function as a mailing list
> (as Google Groups is pathetically trying to do), with email replies to
> threads etc. The current "get notified by email" features aren't the
> same thing.
> 
> Jake Stew  wrote a mail2forum gateway for phpBB and
> began using it with the diybio mailing list. What's interesting is
> that nobody used it except for him, not even the others who were
> wanting a forum in the first place. I don't really have an opinion on
> this result, but it's sort of funny, and worth sharing, so there you
> go. Maybe bug him for the phpBB plugin and start using it if you
> really prefer phpBB or ikonboard or HyperVBulletin or whatever the
> latest malware is called.
> 
> What's particularly funny is that Google Groups was trying to pivot
> their content into a forum (and at the same time murdering all of
> their USENET content, I guess they don't have thorough automatic
> tests...). You can see it all over their UI because of their
> half-assed attempt to convert from using the word "groups" to
> "forums". I think in part this was an attempt to convince users to use
> the web UI as a forum, but when people say forum what they really mean
> is something like Infopop UBB and anything from 1998-2004 that matches
> the same pattern.
> 
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507



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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[StealthMonger]

Greg  writes:

> Forums are simply superior to mailing lists in almost all respects
> (perhaps all). ...

> Thoughts?

A forum is unacceptable if there is no way to post to it through email.

A pseudonym has to use email (through anonymizing remailers) to avoid
being traced.


-- 


 -- StealthMonger 
Long, random latency is part of the price of Internet anonymity.

   anonget: Is this anonymous browsing, or what?
   
http://groups.google.ws/group/alt.privacy.anon-server/msg/073f34abb668df33?dmode=source&output=gplain

   stealthmail: Hide whether you're doing email, or when, or with whom.
   mailto:stealthsu...@nym.mixmin.net?subject=send%20index.html


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[John Levine]

>Stick with the mailing list.  If we are going to move anywhere, it
>should be toward something like a moderated Usenet newsgroup (if not
>actually moving to Usenet).

Agreed.

By the way, I gateway this list to a local newsgroup on my usenet
server and read it there.  Moving to usenet wouldn't be hard, give or
take the hardness of people spinning up usenet clients.

>> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?

Yes.  It encourages me to think before sending.

R's,
John
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Eric Mill]

I feel like people ended up talking past each other here.

Google Groups, as a product, clearly found success from merging a web forum
and an email list together. People use them both ways. I use plenty of
Google Groups in email-only. It's sometimes nice to have a forum
presentation.

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that mailman's web presentation
is a terrible, outdated thing. But obviously, this list would never want to
be part of a Google product (or anyone's product). We want to host our own.

I also don't think it's controversial to suggest that most forum software
is just as terrible and outdated.

I've been distantly watching http://www.discourse.org and I like their
vision. I believe they allow, or want to allow, email-only interaction. I
don't know if it does, and I don't know if Discourse is easy to set up, or
appropriate for the task.

I do know that when people prioritize usability and accessibility over
questions of centralization, I have no choice but to recommend they use
Google Groups. It's crazy that I don't have a better alternative for this.
librelist  held promise, but stalled years ago.

I want there to be an obvious and acceptable alternative that addresses
some of Greg's basic points, because it should be okay to point out that
email has disadvantages. Right now, I don't think there is one. This is a
real gap I'd like to see the open source community fill.


On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 12:26 AM, John Levine  wrote:

> >Stick with the mailing list.  If we are going to move anywhere, it
> >should be toward something like a moderated Usenet newsgroup (if not
> >actually moving to Usenet).
>
> Agreed.
>
> By the way, I gateway this list to a local newsgroup on my usenet
> server and read it there.  Moving to usenet wouldn't be hard, give or
> take the hardness of people spinning up usenet clients.
>
> >> Also, do you enjoy not being able to edit your comments?
>
> Yes.  It encourages me to think before sending.
>
> R's,
> John
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Mill  wrote:
> ...
> I've been distantly watching http://www.discourse.org and I like their
> vision. I believe they allow, or want to allow, email-only interaction. I
> don't know if it does, and I don't know if Discourse is easy to set up, or
> appropriate for the task.
From their page: "Log in with … anything". I suppose that means one
must share all their selected account details with the folks providing
the service. Some of the more egregious require access to contacts to
send personalized spam. (I don't believe I've found one yet that's
happy with just being a relying party and only using the email address
provider assertion).

Jeff
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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please? (Greg)

[brian.otto]

I only subscribed to this list very recently, so my opinion probably doesn't 
carry much weight, but I would love it if this list was moved to a forum! It is 
much easier to find the information your interest in, easier to contribute to 
and moderate topics, and just all the benefits already listed by Greg. I have 
extensive (13+ years) PHP experience if you need help setting things up.

Brian


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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please? (Greg)

[Bernie Cosell]

On 24 Dec 2013 at 16:10, brian.otto wrote:

> I only subscribed to this list very recently, so my opinion probably 
> doesn't carry much weight, but I would love it if this list was moved to
> a forum! It is much easier to find the information your interest in, 
> easier to contribute to and moderate topics, and just all the benefits
> already listed by Greg.

First, I don't know what you mean by "moderate topics" -- if this list 
has a moderator they should weigh in on how much work it is.  As for 
finding info, I agree: mailing lists like this should have online 
searchable archives of posts [and many I'm on do].

As for contributing, I don't see how it is 'easier' -- to contribute now 
I can add to a discussion by simply hitting 'reply' and I can start a new 
discussion by simply starting a new message in my email client and 
sending it off [no need to surf to the forum website, login, and then 
"contribute"].

   /Bernie\

-- 
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-->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--   



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