date:20020922

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 9/20/02 8:27:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Do you think the US has agents in Israel?

 Does Israel give us 6 billion bucks a year and protect us from all the
people
 in the world who hate us?

Ignorant racist fool. The answer is YES.

Joshua2

 Bill.

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 9/20/02 10:27:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 No, Thatâs what we give them - they give us a place to test illegal
weapons,
 and have guaranteed access to the oil producing regions of the world.

Who has guaranteed access to the oil producing regions of the world?
Israel?
So anyway WE give Israel at least $6,000,000,000 a year and they spy on us
and you have the stones to ask if we spy on them? Talk about gall!

Bill.

Of course we spy on them.  What do you think the Liberty was doing
when they shot it up?

J2

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 9/20/02 10:52:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Wake up
  Everyone spies on everyone

 Not people who owe their very survival on those they're spying on...that
show
 a deeply flawed character.

 Bill.

Fuck you Shannon. Talk about a deeply flawed character.
Racist, paranoid, LaRouchie.

Did you READ the LaRouche article you posted you dumb schmuck?

 a 1996 Israeli government policy that is being foisted on the President
by a nest of Israeli agents inside the U.S. government.

 This Israeli spy network inside the United States was unable achieve
their objective until President Bush was entrapped by the events of
Sept. 11, 2001 and the falsified accounts of those events provided by
this foreign intelligence apparatus, and lured over to their policies. 

Gee. EVERYBODY in the intelligence services are so gullible. Only those
really clever Jews could manage to fool evrybody but the even more
clever Lyndon LaRouche.

 On July 8, 1996, Richard Perle, now the Chairman of the Defense Policy
Board, an advisory group that reports to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul
Wolfowitz,
 presented a written document to Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu, spelling out a new Israeli foreign policy,

Now let's analyse this. Israeli spies in the US gov don't present Israeli
Prime ministers with a new foreign policy. Israeli Prime Ministers don't
make such decisions alone. They work it through their parliaments and
must get their backing. This story is ridiculous on its face.

If he is not an Israeli spy. Why is an American oficial presenting a foreign
SOVEREIGN country's Prime Minister with new foreign policy directives?

Who's zooming who?

 calling
for a repudiation of the Oslo Accords and the underlying concept of
land for peace; for the permanent annexation of the entire West Bank
and Gaza Strip; and for the elimination of the Saddam Hussein regime in
Baghdad, as a first step towards overthrowing or destabilizing the
governments of Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iran. The document was
prepared for the Jerusalem and Washington, DC-based Institute for
Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS), a think tank financed
by Richard Mellon-Scaife.

You mean the Zionist Richard Mellon-Scaife? Or the Ultra-conservative
Richard Mellon-Scaife.

There IS NO Zionist Richard Mellon-Scaife.

 The report, A Clean Break: A New Strategy for
Securing the Realm, was co-authored by Perle; Douglas Feith, currently
the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Policy; David Wurmser, currently
special assistant to State Department chief arms control negotiator John
Bolton; and Meyrav Wurmser, now Director of Mideast Policy at the Hudson
Institute.

All these clowns are the super-hawks of the Reagan era. Some of them
are Jews. But the point is that they are different from the Liberal
Globalists
who have historically been pro-Arab. The guys in the Clinton administration.
The land for peace guys. The Oslo guys.

 Two days after he received the foreign policy blueprint from Perle,
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu delivered a speech before a joint
session of the U.S. Congress, which strongly echoed the IASPS outline.
The same day, the Wall Street Journal published excerpts from the IASPS
document, and the next day, July 11, 1996, the Journal editorially
endorsed the Perle document.

Beginning in February 1998, the British government of Prime Minister
Tony Blair launched a concerted effort, in league with the Netanyahu
government in Israel, and the Perle Israeli agent-of-influence networks
inside the United States, to induce President William Clinton to launch
a war against Iraq, under precisely the terms spelled out for Netanyahu
in the Clean Break paper. The war was to be launched, ostensibly, over
Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction. United Nations
weapons inspectors were, at this time, still on the ground inside Iraq.

And it all went away untill September 11 2001, when Arab terrorists
attacked the USA and killed 3000 Americans.

In addition to that the Oslo Peace process totally backfired into violent
terrorist, and counter terrorist conflict. Everything that the NWO elites
tried with the Arabs was falling apart.

And that pretty much ended 55 years of ALWAYS pro-Saudi, and SOMETIMES
pro-Israel policies.

The Arabs couldn't get their shit together. They were violent, corrupt and
stupid.
They hated the USA in a way which couldn't be covered up anymore. And
so it was time to take the bull by the balls and get rid of these useless
proxies and take over the region by force. With out anyone to stop it, the
US has
a rare window of opportunity to do anything it wants to. It want's to remove
control of the Gulf's oil from their flaky,

Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 6:13:56 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 Does Israel give us 6 billion bucks a year and protect us from all the
people
 in the world who hate us?

Ignorant racist fool. The answer is YES.


You're saying that Israel gives us $6,000,000,000 a year and protects us too?? And then you call me names?? Since it's Sunday and I've got to mentally prepare for another grueling Bears game I shall let your namecalling stand...for now.

Bill.
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always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 6:14:00 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Of course we spy on them. What do you think the Liberty was doing
when they shot it up?

Are you suggesting that what was done to the Liberty is ok?
Why not make that suggestion to the survivors and the families of the victims? I'd love to see that!

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 6:14:01 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fuck you Shannon. Talk about a deeply flawed character.
Racist, paranoid, LaRouchie.

Now now...did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this fine morning?
When you don't resort to namecalling you make some interesting, though lightweight and propagandic, arguements but then you ruin any credibility you might ever aspire to by losing your temper and having another hissy fit.

This is the way it happened you racist prick. This is the American Empire.
Smaller nations serve IT. It's ALWAYS been this way.

I've been telling you for years that your racism makes you stupid. Here
is another perfect example. You're Jew hatred has you reinventing the
obvious
so pricks like you could make believe that the Jew tail wags the dog.

You are a disgraceful lying shit shannon.

As I've stated to you FOR YEARS - I have nothing against any group of people based on race or religion (unlike you) but there are political positions that I find disgustingly ugly such as your beloved Zionism. You once again lapse into the tired old tactic of calling anyone who expresses displeasure with the Israeli government or distaste for racist and apartheid Zionism a racist. You'd think you and your ADL/JDL buddies would come up with a new method at some point...hopefully they're working on it and will send you new marching orders soon!!

Have a nice NFL Sunday Zev.
GO BEARS!

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

Title: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector-

He did not say it was OK

He said that Americans were spying on Israelis.

Bill you and FLW consistently make these logical leaps and assumptions, and then act as if the person you are writing to said these things instead of you.

The question is why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel, but not OK in the other direction.?

on 9/22/02 8:02 AM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Of course we spy on them. What do you think the Liberty was doing
when they shot it up?

Are you suggesting that what was done to the Liberty is ok?
Why not make that suggestion to the survivors and the families of the victims? I'd love to see that!

-- - --- -- --- --
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is a force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.

George Washington

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

2002-09-22 Thread Zuukie

-Caveat Lector-

Shannon, you are such a foolishly
gullible person for certain types
of information that you post on the board here that it's a wonder you
can stand up straight when you get out of bed in the morning. 


You get uptight at the idea that Israel
should have spies over here.
Obviously you don't trust every individual and organization in
the US. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here. You're interested
even though probably it wouldn't make a dent in your life if you
were right or wrong. Nobody is out to kill you, your family and the
people in your neighborhood, something you could prevent if you
had the right information.


The internet is filled with people
who don't completely trust every
individual and organization in the US. At the very basic level,
the Republicans don't trust the Democrats and vice versa.
Although no one talks about it, my guess is that they have
operatives in each other's camps. The US government puts
operatives into the camps of groups here they worry about. The
LaRouchies ran and may still run a huge information gathering
network and made money selling their information around the
world. Scientologists put their people all over. The Moonies didn't
get the money to set up their huge business network selling
marriage licenses. Do you think overseas terrorist cells are only
broken because of tips that come from overheard words at rest stop
restaurants?


The Mossad rightly shouldn't
trust every individual and
organization in the US because the lives of Israeli citizens
depends on what they know. Now they can get the information they
need in a number of ways. They can do firsthand research for one.


You would have us believe they should
read the internet daily and
trust that everything they read is true. 


That kind of thinking is why I don't
trust the authors of the things
you post.


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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 9:30:44 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


The question is why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel, but not OK in the other direction.?

In a perfect world it wouldn't be "ok" but in this world we give them billions of our tax dollars a year and defend them like they're our 51st state and to spy on the very people who are essentially propping them up is obscene.

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 9:35:24 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Shannon, you are such a foolishly gullible person for certain types of information that you post on the board here that it's a wonder you can stand up straight when you get out of bed in the morning. 

Seems the Zionazis are on a namecalling binge today. Zuukie, I think you're over your head here...go back to the marching band drum corps and Jewish history forums where you're a better fit.

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

Title: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector-

Its not a perfect world.

People and states pursue their own interests. Some of those interest are inimical to others. The others want to know. This is true about Israelis looking for anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli groups in the US and elsewhere. It is true of American spies in countries we are allies with. This is the information age. There will be information gatherers of all types with all sorts of agendas. You understand this this understanding is central to this very list we are on. Welcome to the 21st century.

So now lets try again, and see if a real full answer comes this time. Why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel?

on 9/22/02 10:51 AM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/22/02 9:30:44 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The question is why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel, but not OK in the other direction.?

In a perfect world it wouldn't be ok but in this world we give them billions of our tax dollars a year and defend them like they're our 51st state and to spy on the very people who are essentially propping them up is obscene.

Bill. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

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[CTRL] Prince Charles

-Caveat Lector-



So Prince Charles has said if fox hunting 
is banned he will leave England! Camilla Parker Bowles Charlies long time lover 
joined a demo today in London of two and a half thousand (1% of the british 
population),"Country loving" people who marched through the streets of london in 
an effort to intimidate the government.
6 years ago in the labour manifesto tony 
blh said he would see fox hunting banned he has sat on the fence on this 
bill which should have been passed already...the reason he is trying to duck 
this issue...money!
A lot of these people demonstrating today 
have their fingers in too many pies and money talks.
These foxes are chased till they are 
tired out and then ripped to shreds by hounds and the newest hunt members are 
smeared by the blood of the fox in a ritual that goes back hundreds of 
years.
It is OUTDATED and UNWANTED in our 
society today and if Mr Blaaah puts his money where his mouth is and gets off 
the fence and does what he says then it looks like Charlie will be leaving the 
country.
The Big question now is Does Charlie know 
something we dont?
For an heir to the throne of England to 
say something as profound as this my instincts tell me that Blair will back down 
from his original agreement with the people of England,to ban this cruel 
sport.
The Mermaid 
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 10:38:21 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So now lets try again, and see if a real full answer comes this time. Why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel?

Thanks for the 101 civics lesson.
It is not ok for the benefactors of American tax dollars to spy on the people who are propping them up and protecting them from what decades of abuse and hatred have wrought.

If anyone thinks their tax dollars are better spent paying off an ungrateful bunch of whiners and murderers than shoring up our borders and taking care of our own they are pathetically UN-American and might consider moving to Occupied Palestine.

Bill.

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Re: [CTRL] Prince Charles

Title: Re: [CTRL] Prince Charles
-Caveat Lector-

I would hold him to it.
Get the whole inbred lot of them out.

Maybe if the aristocracy stops bleeding England of its money, maybe you could remake the society in a more positive healthful way.

on 9/22/02 12:07 PM, Mermaid at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector-
So Prince Charles has said if fox hunting is banned he will leave England! Camilla Parker Bowles Charlies long time lover joined a demo today in London of two and a half thousand (1% of the british population),Country loving people who marched through the streets of london in an effort to intimidate the government.
6 years ago in the labour manifesto tony blh said he would see fox hunting banned he has sat on the fence on this bill which should have been passed already...the reason he is trying to duck this issue...money!
A lot of these people demonstrating today have their fingers in too many pies and money talks.
These foxes are chased till they are tired out and then ripped to shreds by hounds and the newest hunt members are smeared by the blood of the fox in a ritual that goes back hundreds of years.
It is OUTDATED and UNWANTED in our society today and if Mr Blaaah puts his money where his mouth is and gets off the fence and does what he says then it looks like Charlie will be leaving the country.
The Big question now is Does Charlie know something we dont?
For an heir to the throne of England to say something as profound as this my instincts tell me that Blair will back down from his original agreement with the people of England,to ban this cruel sport.
The Mermaid
A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 9/22/02 6:14:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Of course we spy on them.  What do you think the Liberty was doing
  when they shot it up?

 Are you suggesting that what was done to the Liberty is ok?
 Why not make that suggestion to the survivors and the families of the
 victims? I'd love to see that!

 Bill.

Don't play games jerkoff. The question was do WE spy on Israel.
My answer was yes. The Liberty being that example.

Nowhere in my response above do I say it was ok.

But if that was indeed the case, then ANY country has the right
to protect itself.

As for telling the the relatives and survivors, they all knew the risks
of being in the military on a spy ship. And the other question is what
made it OK for the individuals on the Liberty to spy on an ally and pass the
information to Israel's enemies WHILE THEY WERE FIGHTING A WAR?

Is that ok Shannon? Who is screwing who here?

I don't see them or you or ANYBODY else for that matter make a big deal
out of an identical situation where our ally Sadam shot up a US spyship
in the Gulf while it was spying on him and Iran during the Iran/Iraq war.
Sadam said it was an accident, and we dropped the issue.

This is what we do when we get caught.

The point here is that the US spies on its friends and allies when
it wants to. All countries spy on all other countries.

J2

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money

2002-09-22 Thread flw


-Caveat Lector-

You are playing the bait and switch again.
 The Saudi's are essentially hiring young Palestinians as murderers.
They are making the killing of innocents a lucrative career path.

High pay for short 'career' isn't it? Not one a person who is not
frustrated to a point of insanity would choose it appears.

 What is is with people who only see the world in black and white. Several
on
 this list keep assuming that because I'm Jewish, or because I think
Israel
 has a right to exist, that I'm some rightwing Sharon loving settler. That
 because I find convincing boys that murder will bring them heavenly
orgasms
 is as evil as evil can get, that I think any act perpetrated against
Muslims
 is OK.

The reality is that Israel is an oppressor, apartheid, occupying state.
The Palestinians are not occupying Israel, they are not making Israelis
live under state terrorism. They are not building illegal Palestinian
squatter
camps in Israel. The Palestinians are not starving the Israeli children.
They are not stealing Israeli water. They are not smashing down the Israeli
homes of IDF bomber pilots. They are not burning down 500 year old
olive groves in Israel.

They are not committing cultural genocide against the
Israelis - the Israelis are doing it to themselves.

What you fail to understand is that there is no moral equivilancy here.

The Israelis and their Jewish (and non-Jewish) supporters fail to
realize that they are on the side of apartheid, colonialism, cultural
genocide  - they are on the wrong side of History.
flw

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

Title: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector-

Everyone spies on everyone I thought this
was generally an accepted belief. Noone trusts anyone.And who can blame them.But
if a nation is caught spying on another nation that is supporting it with money
then surely that nation has a right to take away its support.If the nation who
is receiving the support is blackmailing them at the same time to go to war on
its behalf then what hold do they have over them in the first place? Which
brings us neatly back to spying.
The Mermaid

- Original Message -
From:
thew

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:37
PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI
AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector- Its not a
perfect world.People and states pursue their own interests. Some of
those interest are inimical to others. The others want to know. This is true
about Israelis looking for anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli groups in the US and
elsewhere. It is true of American spies in countries we are allies with. This
is the information age. There will be information gatherers of all types with
all sorts of agendas. You understand this this understanding is central to
this very list we are on. Welcome to the 21st century.So now lets try
again, and see if a real full answer comes this time. Why is it OK for the US
to spy on Israel?on 9/22/02 10:51 AM, William Shannon at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/22/02 9:30:44 AM
Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The question is why is it OK for
the US to spy on Israel, but not OK in the other
direction.?In a perfect world it
wouldn't be "ok" but in this world we give them billions of our tax dollars
a year and defend them like they're our 51st state and to spy on the very
people who are essentially propping them up is
obscene.Bill. A
HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION
DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange
list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot
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used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread
throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no
endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be
wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's
need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] Om-- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - --
--- -- - - - - -- - - - -- -- - -- -"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." -- Mark Twain
NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line:
http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A
HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION
DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list.
Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot
soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its
many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by
different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum
of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity
of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives
no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

Title: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector-

You are generally a smart well spoken guy, these outbursts dont serve you.

Your statements rest on this assumption that all Americans are working together, in lockstep, towards some national goal and you know it isnt true. More to the point, you are once again telling my why its not OK for Israel to spy on the US I asked why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel.

Our tax dollars have been misspent propping up every brutal dictator who ever killed a Communist, or just happened to have a barrel of oil handy. Why is Israel the only one that sticks in your craw so? Why not say that people can move to Saudi Arabia, or America occupied panama, or occupied Jordan, Or Occupied Chechnya?

on 9/22/02 11:55 AM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/22/02 10:38:21 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So now lets try again, and see if a real full answer comes this time. Why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel?

Bill.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

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--
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 11:01:05 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Don't play games jerkoff. 

You sure are angry...did your pawnshop get robbed or what?
Namecalling got you in trouble before and it seems to me you haven't learned a thing.
Nothing funnier to me than an angry,slobbering Zionazi!
Thanks for the chuckle!

Bill.
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money


-Caveat Lector-

on 9/22/02 11:58 AM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 You are playing the bait and switch again.
 The Saudi's are essentially hiring young Palestinians as murderers.
 They are making the killing of innocents a lucrative career path.

 High pay for short 'career' isn't it? Not one a person who is not
 frustrated to a point of insanity would choose it appears.


That statement probably isn't true if you believe in heaven for martyrs, for
misguided children who think their family would be better of with money and
a dead son, than a live son without blood money.




 What is is with people who only see the world in black and white. Several
 on
 this list keep assuming that because I'm Jewish, or because I think
 Israel
 has a right to exist, that I'm some rightwing Sharon loving settler. That
 because I find convincing boys that murder will bring them heavenly
 orgasms
 is as evil as evil can get, that I think any act perpetrated against
 Muslims
 is OK.

 The reality is that Israel is an oppressor, apartheid, occupying state.
 The Palestinians are not occupying Israel, they are not making Israelis
 live under state terrorism. They are not building illegal Palestinian
 squatter
 camps in Israel. The Palestinians are not starving the Israeli children.
 They are not stealing Israeli water. They are not smashing down the Israeli
 homes of IDF bomber pilots. They are not burning down 500 year old
 olive groves in Israel.

 They are not committing cultural genocide against the
 Israelis - the Israelis are doing it to themselves.

 What you fail to understand is that there is no moral equivilancy here.

 The Israelis and their Jewish (and non-Jewish) supporters fail to
 realize that they are on the side of apartheid, colonialism, cultural
 genocide  - they are on the wrong side of History.



Even if everything you say is true it does not make it Ok for the Saudi's to
pay for the killing of innocent children in school buses, for the killing of
innocent teenagers at a youth night in a disco, for innocent shoppers in a
mall, commuters on a bus, or diners in a pizzeria. Israeli murder cannot
justify Palestinian murder. If it does, then Palestinian murder justifies
Israeli murder, and the cycle of violence cannot end.


Let me ask you - seriously - where can the Jews have a homeland? Do their
nationalist desires not deserve the same consideration as the Palestinians?
(for the sake of simplicity we will leave the Palestinian state of Jordan
out of it for the moment)







-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- -- --
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better
than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands of those who feed
you. May your chains set lightly upon you.
   Samuel Adams




NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

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==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 11:03:13 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You are generally a smart well spoken guy, these outbursts donât serve you.

What outbursts?
Just today I was called, by your partner in crime, a "jerkoff", "racist", "paranoid", a "racist prick" and told to "fuck off"...I am not the one with the anger management issues nor am outbursting!

I agree that we have in the past misspent tons of tax dollars propping up people and regimes that were dispicable, and I have loudly spoken against that. Israel is only country that we spend that obscene amount of money on, that's why it sticks in my craw. No matter what we send them the check...for years and years. It need to stop.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 11:12:35 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Let me ask you - seriously - where can the Jews have a homeland? Do their
nationalist desires not deserve the same consideration as the Palestinians?

They should've taken Madagascar when they had the chance.

Bill.
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==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
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Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

Title: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2
-Caveat Lector-





The US absolutely has the right to pull support from Israel if it wants to. 
(I dont think it wants to  the benefits outweigh any harm a little spying can do)

I dont think the war on Iraq is being thrust on us by Israel, Bush has a hard-on for this that comes from being in bed with the Saudis the Bahrainis the Kuwaiti's and his other oil buddies/masters. Besides Saddam made his daddy look bad and cry.


on 9/22/02 12:19 PM, Mermaid at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- 
Everyone spies on everyone I thought this was generally an accepted belief. Noone trusts anyone.And who can blame them.But if a nation is caught spying on another nation that is supporting it with money then surely that nation has a right to take away its support.If the nation who is receiving the support is blackmailing them at the same time to go to war on its behalf then what hold do they have over them in the first place? Which brings us neatly back to spying.
The Mermaid 
- Original Message - 
From: thew mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] NEST OF ISRAELI AGENTS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT --j2

-Caveat Lector- 
Its not a perfect world.

People and states pursue their own interests. Some of those interest are inimical to others. The others want to know. This is true about Israelis looking for anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli groups in the US and elsewhere. It is true of American spies in countries we are allies with. This is the information age. There will be information gatherers of all types with all sorts of agendas. You understand this  this understanding is central to this very list we are on. Welcome to the 21st century.

So now lets try again, and see if a real full answer comes this time. Why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel?


on 9/22/02 10:51 AM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/22/02 9:30:44 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


The question is why is it OK for the US to spy on Israel, but not OK in the other direction.?


In a perfect world it wouldn't be ok but in this world we give them billions of our tax dollars a year and defend them like they're our 51st state and to spy on the very people who are essentially propping them up is obscene.

Bill. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.  Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.htmlArchives" of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A 

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Om


-- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - -- --- -- - - -  - -- - - - --  -- - -- -
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NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew 
A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 

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Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money

Title: Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money
-Caveat Lector-




Then you would be griping about the evil Jews and their domination in Africa.




on 9/22/02 12:14 PM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/22/02 11:12:35 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Let me ask you - seriously - where can the Jews have a homeland? Do their
nationalist desires not deserve the same consideration as the Palestinians?


They should've taken Madagascar when they had the chance.

Bill. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/www.ctrl.org/A" DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.  Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.htmlArchives" of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A 

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Om


-- 
All the thoughts of a turtle are turtle

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NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew




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Re: [CTRL] Prince Charles

Title: Re: [CTRL] Prince Charles
-Caveat Lector-



So would I ...but sadly i dont think it 
will happen,like I said he knows something which is why he is putting his crown 
on the line.
Sometimes I think Mr Blah would like to 
see them all gone...then other times he upholds the monarchy.He is playing a 
double bind here. His sights are set on being president of the new Europe but 
just incase he doesnt make it he panders to these leeches.
The British people would rather be 
subjects to her majesty the queen than citizens to a dictator like Blaaah.It 
doesnt matter to them that her majesty is of german origin and has no right to 
be on the throne in the first place,their loyalties only lie in the fredom they 
percieve..of course they are not free it is like being a mouse in the jaws of a 
lion one side and a tiger on the other.
What we need in Britian is a new 
political party that will give us a choice because at the moment we are a one 
party nation.
Very few people want the conservatives 
back in with their present leader who is a spineless twit.On the other hand 
there is a dictator in downing street at the moment who is gradually losing 
credibility.
On the other hand we have a family who do 
not work and whose CV's would never get them a job in the real worldcome to 
that the politicians are the same which is why they set up quangos to assure 
their futures as board directors,on their departure from 
government.
The British people have no choice this is 
not a democratic country anymore..we are spied onwe are taxed to the 
hilt...and our 2.2 nuclear loving families are gone so what do we 
do?
There was a party started up called the 
independent party but the founder and leader Golding died of cancer and i still 
wonder if his ideas frightened those in high places and he was neatly cut out of 
the picture.
Ah well a day in the life of being a 
brit.
The Mermaid xx


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  thew 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:55 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Prince Charles
  -Caveat Lector- I would hold him 
  to it.Get the whole inbred lot of them out.Maybe if the 
  aristocracy stops bleeding England of its money, maybe you could remake the 
  society in a more positive healthful way.on 9/22/02 12:07 PM, Mermaid 
  at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  -Caveat Lector- So Prince Charles has said if fox hunting is banned he will 
leave England! Camilla Parker Bowles Charlies long time lover joined a demo 
today in London of two and a half thousand (1% of the british 
population),"Country loving" people who marched through the streets of 
london in an effort to intimidate the government.6 years ago in the 
labour manifesto tony blh said he would see fox hunting banned he has 
sat on the fence on this bill which should have been passed already...the 
reason he is trying to duck this issue...money!A lot of these people 
demonstrating today have their fingers in too many pies and money 
talks.These foxes are chased till they are tired out and then ripped to 
shreds by hounds and the newest hunt members are smeared by the blood of the 
fox in a ritual that goes back hundreds of years.It is OUTDATED and 
UNWANTED in our society today and if Mr Blaaah puts his money where his 
mouth is and gets off the fence and does what he says then it looks like 
Charlie will be leaving the country.The Big question now is Does Charlie 
know something we dont?For an heir to the throne of England to say 
something as profound as this my instincts tell me that Blair will back down 
from his original agreement with the people of England,to ban this cruel 
sport.The Mermaid A 
HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION  
DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange 
list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
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CTRL [to:]

Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 11:18:47 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Then you would be griping about the evil Jews and their domination in Africa.

Probably...ya' got me there!
Does anyone watch football anymore??
I've got to go watch my investments...wish I could stick around and be called all sorts of terrible names by Mr.Anonymous (J2/Zev) but alas - duty calls.

Bill.
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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[CTRL] Iraq's quest

2002-09-22 Thread Euphorian


-Caveat Lector-

Focus
http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4506091,00.html


Revealed: Iraq's quest to build nuclear bomb

New evidence proves that Saddam Hussein has continued his efforts to assemble an
arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. Special report by Peter Beaumont in London and
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow

Can war be avoided? Talk about it here or email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Iraq: Observer special

Peter Beaumont in London and Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday September 22, 2002
The Observer

In the days before Iraq's defeat in the 1991 Gulf war, the vast sprawl of anonymous 
factory
buildings that makes up the Badr General Establishment was a central hub in its 
efforts to
design and build a nuclear bomb.

As Iraq has admitted to the United Nations, it was here, 20 miles south of Baghdad, 
that the
bustling teams of technicians and machinists worked on components for the gas 
centrifuges
and molecular pumps that were intended for Iraq's enrichment cascade for the fissile
material for its nuclear bomb. It was here too that Iraq's missile technicians worked 
on
modification and production of the Scud B missiles that they hoped would carry a 
warhead.

With Iraq's capitulation to the allied forces, Badr - like the State Enterprise for 
Heavy
Equipment Engineering and dozens of other enterprises run under the auspices of the
Ministry for Military Industrialisation - was supposed to be closed down and monitored
under the UN ceasefire resolutions designed to dismantle Iraq's ability to retain, 
design and
build weapons of mass destruction.

But the scientists and managers from Badr had different orders from Iraqi president
Saddam Hussein. What they have been up to goes to the heart of US and UK concern that
Saddam has been trying to assemble the expertise and materials to build weapons of mass
destruction, for the men from Badr turned up at a factory in Minsk in the former Soviet
republic of Belarus.The Iraqi delegation that arrived at the Belstroyimpex 
headquarters in
July 1995 was a high-powered one, travelling under the aegis of the Badr General
Establishment.

They carried a shopping list of high-specification machine tools, including diamond 
cutters,
a powder-metal production line and a plasma-spray machine - all potentially components
for nuclear weapons and a ballistic- missiles programme. The delegation was careful to
cover its tracks, keeping the visit and the deals signed secret from the UN. Iraq went 
to
greater lengths still to hide these purchases from the UN sanctions regime, smuggling 
them
into Iraq via the Jordanian free port of Aqaba, and trying to hide the equipment once 
it
reached Iraq.

The Iraqi deal with Belstroyimpex was not unique. As arms inspectors and independent
researchers have established in the past two years, the deal was only a small part of 
an
intensive effort by companies and organisations linked to the Iraq's Ministry of 
Military
Industrialisation to acquire forbidden technologies and materials from Belarus and 
over a
dozen other countries.

It is an effort, say diplomatic sources, that continued just two months ago, when 
Iraq's
deputy Prime Minister, and Minister for Military Industrialisation, Abdul Tawab Mulla
Howeish, was in Minsk to sign a new protocol authorising scientific and technical 
exchanges
between the two states. Indeed as lately as 1998 - before their forced departure from 
Iraq
- UN inspectors discovered machine tools delivered from Belarus at the Saddam Artillery
Plant, where they found Iraqi technicians installing 14 new machines for manufacturing 
75-
millimetre lenses with a military use. The crates were marked 'Republic of Belarus, 
Vitebsk
Machine Building Plant'.

The Iraqi activity in Belarus is the most worrying evidence that Iraq is still 
pursuing a covert
procurement programme . It may not be the 'smoking gun' that proves that Saddam has
acquired the fissile material to build his bomb, but it is evidence that he is trying 
hard.

Firm evidence exists that in the decade since the end of the Gulf war Saddam quickly 
rebuilt
his secret procurement networks, casting his net from the UK to eastern Europe, South 
East
Asia and as far as Africa, operating through a complex network of front companies and
middlemen.

Iraqi agents have been active in Ukraine, Russia, Romania and in the former Yugoslavia.
They have been spotted in Congo, Kenya, Jordan and Syria, in Malaysia and Indonesia. It
has not always been a subtle or successful effort. Indeed some analysts say privately 
that
the chaotic and piecemeal effort of Saddam's procurement network smacks of desperation.
Its persistence is what is worrying Britain and the US.

And it is these procurement efforts that will provide the backbone of Tony Blair's 
dossier on
the threat posed by Iraq when it is released this week. That dossier is likely to 
argue that
Saddam's current efforts have strong parallels with the massive Iraqi procurement
programme in the 1980s when Saddam began

[CTRL] 'Totally Unjustified'

2002-09-22 Thread Euphorian


-Caveat Lector-

Rense.com
http://www.rense.com/general29/ukk.htm


UK Gulf War General Says
Iraq Invasion 'Totally Unjustified'
By Sean Rayment
Defence Correspondent
The Sunday Telegraph
9-21-2

The officer who commanded the British 7th Armoured Brigade in the Gulf War

has revealed that he is strongly opposed to a military invasion of Iraq.

Maj Gen Patrick Cordingley, who commanded the brigade - the renowned Desert Rats - in
1991, believes that Iraq poses no imminent threat to Britain or its interests and that 
the
case for war has not yet been made by the politicians.

Gen Cordingley told The Telegraph: I'm absolutely opposed to a war. I feel very 
strongly
that it is wrong. There is no justification for sending British troops to Iraq.

He doubted that the dossier of evidence against the Iraqi regime - to be released by 
Tony
Blair on Tuesday - would prove the case for war. I don't think they have much, 
frankly, he
said.

It is understood that Gen Cordingley also has grave concerns about the number of
casualties that could result from having to fight all the way to Baghdad.

Based on his forecast from 1991 that military casualties in a full-scale conflict 
could amount
to 15 per cent, a suggested British and American invasion force of 250,000 troops could
suffer more than 37,000 casualties.

In the event in 1991, the predicted battles between two large armies did not 
materialise
and allied casualties numbered fewer than 250. The United States lost 148 men and 
Britain
24 - nine of them to US friendly fire.

Gen Cordingley, 58, is the first retired senior Army officer and Gulf War veteran to 
condemn
the Government's stance on a possible Iraq war.

The Telegraph has learnt, however, of a growing unease among senior British officers. 
One
serving officer said that Britain and the US should embark on a war only with the 
sanction
of the UN.

He said: the Army is apolitical and will do as it's told. But there is concern that an 
invasion
of Iraq could totally destabilise the entire region. Saddam Hussein has been contained 
for
10 years.

The question being asked is, 'Why choose war now?' - especially when there's no proof 
that
he's linked to al-Qa'eda.

There is also growing frustration that, while the Americans appear to be making all 
sort of
plans for an invasion, the British military is completely in the dark. Nothing has 
come down
from the top, and we need direction.

Gen Cordingley has immense experience of the complex politics and culture of the Gulf
region.

In 1996, he published an account of his experiences, entitled In the Eye of the Storm, 
which
was based on a diary he kept throughout the conflict. In the epilogue, he records the 
sense
of inevitability of war as the military build-up began.

Once the coalition was ready to fight, the temptation for the politicians to find a 
military
solution to the problem must have been overwhelming, he wrote.

The political conundrum as to whether Saddam Hussein should have been removed from
power is perhaps more difficult to comment on without reference to hindsight, but I
remember thinking at the time that no one wanted a vacuum in the Middle East, nor did 
the
Americans want to be seen as king-makers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/09/22/ nirq22.xml/



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[CTRL] Address at morning prayers

2002-09-22 Thread Euphorian


-Caveat Lector-

http://president.harvard.edu/speeches/2002/morningprayers.html


Address at morning prayers
Memorial Church
Cambridge, Massachusetts
September 17, 2002

I speak with you today not as President of the University but as a concerned member of 
our
community about something that I never thought I would become seriously worried about 
--
the issue of anti-Semitism.

I am Jewish, identified but hardly devout. In my lifetime, anti-Semitism has been 
remote
from my experience. My family all left Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. The
Holocaust is for me a matter of history, not personal memory. To be sure, there were
country clubs where I grew up that had few if any Jewish members, but not ones that
included people I knew. My experience in college and graduate school, as a faculty
member, as a government official -- all involved little notice of my religion.

Indeed, I was struck during my years in the Clinton administration that the existence 
of an
economic leadership team with people like Robert Rubin, Alan Greenspan, Charlene
Barshefsky and many others that was very heavily Jewish passed without comment or
notice -- it was something that would have been inconceivable a generation or two ago, 
as
indeed it would have been inconceivable a generation or two ago that Harvard could 
have a
Jewish President.

Without thinking about it much, I attributed all of this to progress -- to an 
ascendancy of
enlightenment and tolerance. A view that prejudice is increasingly put aside. A view 
that
while the politics of the Middle East was enormously complex, and contentious, the 
question
of the right of a Jewish state to exist had been settled in the affirmative by the 
world
community.

But today, I am less complacent. Less complacent and comfortable because there is
disturbing evidence of an upturn in anti-Semitism globally, and also because of some
developments closer to home.

Consider some of the global events of the last year:

There have been synagogue burnings, physical assaults on Jews, or the painting of
swastikas on Jewish memorials in every country in Europe. Observers in many countries
have pointed to the worst outbreak of attacks against the Jews since the Second World
War.
Candidates who denied the significance of the Holocaust reached the runoff stage of
elections for the nations highest office in France and Denmark. State-sponsored 
television
stations in many nations of the world spew anti-Zionist propaganda.
The United Nations-sponsored World Conference on Racism -- while failing to mention
human rights abuses in China, Rwanda, or anyplace in the Arab world -- spoke of 
Israels
policies prior to recent struggles under the Barak government as constituting ethnic
cleansing and crimes against humanity. The NGO declaration at the same conference was
even more virulent.

I could go on. But I want to bring this closer to home. Of course academic communities
should be and always will be places that allow any viewpoint to be expressed. And 
certainly
there is much to be debated about the Middle East and much in Israels foreign and 
defense
policy that can be and should be vigorously challenged.

But where anti-Semitism and views that are profoundly anti-Israeli have traditionally 
been
the primary preserve of poorly educated right-wing populists, profoundly anti-Israel 
views
are increasingly finding support in progressive intellectual communities. Serious and
thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-Semitic in their 
effect if
not their intent.

For example:

Hundreds of European academics have called for an end to support for Israeli 
researchers,
though not for an end to support for researchers from any other nation.
Israeli scholars this past spring were forced off the board of an international 
literature
journal.
At the same rallies where protesters, many of them university students, condemn the IMF
and global capitalism and raise questions about globalization, it is becoming 
increasingly
common to also lash out at Israel. Indeed, at the anti-IMF rallies last spring, chants 
were
heard equating Hitler and Sharon.
Events to raise funds for organizations of questionable political provenance that in 
some
cases were later found to support terrorism have been held by student organizations on 
this
and other campuses with at least modest success and very little criticism.
And some here at Harvard and some at universities across the country have called for 
the
University to single out Israel among all nations as the lone country where it is
inappropriate for any part of the universitys endowment to be invested. I hasten to 
say the
University has categorically rejected this suggestion.

We should always respect the academic freedom of everyone to take any position. We
should also recall that academic freedom does not include freedom from criticism. The 
only
antidote to dangerous ideas is strong alternatives vigorously advocated.

I have always

[CTRL] Plan Likely to Further Isolate U.S.

2002-09-22 Thread Alamaine Ratliff


-Caveat Lector-

From: Euphorian




Plan Likely to Further Isolate U.S.


Policy: Some critics worry that other nations will see a rationale to also strike 
preemptively.

By SONNI EFRON and CAROL J. WILLIAMS
TIMES STAFF WRITERS

September 21 2002

WASHINGTON -- Friday's blunt and uncompromising blueprint of President Bush's new 
security doctrine is likely to further strain relations between the United States and 
nations large and small that already complain about America's dangerous tendency to go 
it alone.

The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-docreax21sep21(0,3992687).story

Visit Latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com

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Om

[CTRL] a letter to Mr Blaah

-Caveat Lector-




EMAIL FROM A READER: of what really happened .com
RE: U.S. blasts OPEC's production policy The US 
threat of war drives oil prices up, and the US whines. 

  From: X 
  Prime Minister Blair, This morning I heard you say that Iraq is a BARBARIC 
  nation and you claim the moral right to attack Iraq. 
  Amnesty International tells us that every year thousands of young women are 
  kidnapped and locked up in brothels in the Jewish state. They are sex-slaves. 
  They are raped twenty times a day and they suffer unspeakable humiliation, 
  disease and forced use of drugs. These poor, naked captives are bought and 
  sold at auctions and become the property of the pimps who buy them. 
  MR BLAIR, IS THIS NOT BARBARIC? 
  Have you requested international inspection of Israeli brothels? Have you 
  requested international inspection of Israel's atomic bomb sites? Have you 
  requested international inspection of Israel's NERVE GAS factories? 
  How racist are you, Mr Blair? 
  Mr Blair, you know very well that in October 1992 an Israeli EL AL Boeing 
  747 crashed in Amsterdam. That jet was carrying huge quantities of the 
  components required for the manufacture of SARIN NERVE GAS. 
  IS THIS NOT BARBARIC, MR BLAIR, TO PRODUCE NERVE GAS FOR MASS DESTRUCTION? 
  Under American law (Title 15, Commerce and Trade) there is a prohibition on 
  collecting and releasing detailed satellite imagery relating to Israel. Do you 
  think ISRAEL has something to hide, Mr. Blair? 
  Also, Under Title 05 in American Law (Government Organisation,Employees) it 
  says: "that any person making a false affidavit shall be guilty of a felony 
  and shall be fined or imprisoned...THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO CITIZENS 
  OFISRAEL" 
  Why are Jews in America allowed to make false affidavits? 
  Was it not BARBARIC for the Jewish military to attack the USS LIBERTY in 
  1967? This was peaceful American vessel, which the Jews tried to sink with 
  nearly 300 men on board. The Jews killed 34 of their American allies, wounded 
  another 171 with napalm, rockets, machine gun shells and torpedoes. Is it not 
  BARBARIC to deliberately attack one's allies in international waters, Mr 
  Blair? 
  Iraq, by comparison, is a peaceful nation, but you want to bomb it. 
  Meanwhile the aggressive State of Israel has ignored more than 100 United 
  Nations resolutions and you don't care, do you Mr Blair? 
  What retaliation will your British people suffer? Will you put on an army 
  uniform and fight for justice in the Middle East? Or will you send your 
  British youth to fight a war for the control of oil that you and Bush want so 
  desperately? 
  Total monopoly of oil is the name of your hypocritical game, not peace or 
  goodwill to all nations. 


A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] W Homosexual? AIDS?

2002-09-22 Thread lloyd


-Caveat Lector-

..

From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]
Note:  We store 100's of related New Paradigms Posts at:
http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/oldprojects/recentmail.html

Subject:  W Homosexual?  AIDS?
Yikes!  Is this crazy?  Or what?
Lloyd
Rense.com


The Overthrow Of The American
Republic - Part 15
By Sherman H. Skolnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.skolnicksreport.com
9-4-2

Is the U.S. Presidency cursed?  Or, are the American people cursed?  Which is it?  
Judge for yourself...  Early in the 19th Century, as a result of White House ordered 
violent mistreatment of American Indians and violation by the White House of solemn 
Treaties with the Indian tribe leaders, the Indians put a curse on the U.S. 
Presidency. Every President, starting with 1840, so the curse goes, elected in a year 
ending in zero, will either die in office, or be assassinated or removed. Ronald 
Reagan, elected in 1980, is not really an exception. In 1981, he survived an attempted 
political assassination, falsely blamed on a lone nut gunman whose family was in 
business with then Vice President George Herbert Walker Bush. Take your pick. It was 
either a scheme to blackmail Daddy Bush or to shove him by murder into the Oval 
Office.  Seldom mentioned. In the U.S., reporters have to get press credentials from 
the U.S. Secret Service who checks out their background, not permitting outs!
 poken types to have the same.Without such press passes, the journalists cannot attend 
important press conferences. To avoid becoming unemployable, no paid press 
correspondents have dared to criticize those who guard the President and have other 
duties, such as checking for counterfeit currency and stolen credit cards.  We are not 
regular, paid journalists, rather, I head a court reform group founded by me in 1963. 
I would rather not use the whole story to tell all of our travails with the Secret 
Service. But a few examples.  Prior to Internet, and public access Cable TV, and more 
widespread talk radio, our only way to broadcast our findings was through a bank of 
thirty telephones hooked together playing a 5-minute recorded message of our work. (We 
got that bunch of phones in a cheap deal with the phone company using our own phone 
answering devices.)  In 1975, we began broadcasting exclusive details of the 
suppressed story of three or more genuine plots to assassinate Pr!
 esident Gerald Ford, installed, not elected, in the downfall by Waterg
ate charges of President Richard M. Nixon. Itching to be president by such political 
murder was Vice President Nelson A. Rockefeller who was not elected but installed by 
operation of the 25th Amendment, added to the U.S. Constitution eight years prior by a 
stealthy campaign by the Rockefeller Family.  In 1975, for a period of time, all of 
our phones were blocked, without court orders or legal formality, by the Secret 
Service that did not like our candid details and about their duplicitous cover-up, on 
behalf of the American aristocracy, of the plots against Ford.  In 1985, two Secret 
Service agents tried to directly scare us. Without a court order or search warrant, 
they tried to force their way into my private residence. This was ten days before the 
second Inauguration of Ronald Reagan. They did not like our outspoken exclusive 
stories about the criminality of Ronnie and his sidekick, George Herbert Walker Bush.  
Standing defiantly at my door on my braces and crutches as a !
 paraplegic, I told them I did not accept the validity of their Commission Books 
(how they describe their credentials) and that false ones were used as part of the 
trick in 1963 in Dealey Plaza. Further, I said The only way you are getting in, is to 
knock me down, break in the door, or use a 'black bag job' (secret break  entry).  
As an alternative to the stand-off, they finally agreed to sit in the back of a car 
while I and a pal sat in the front. Using a small flashlight, they pointed to an 
alleged letter they received threatening harm against me. Look, I am not a candidate 
for President. Hence, you have no jurisdiction to being supposedly guarding me. They 
asked, Who do you think sent this letter to us threatening you? Sarcastically, I 
replied, Oh stop this. You sent it to yourself as an excuse to come here to heckle 
me.  While I had their attention, I pointed out how agents of their service violated 
all kinds of their own regulations, failing to inspect and gu!
 ard while President John F. Kennedy's motorcade slowed down to a crawl
 while navigating a fatal hairpin turn in Dallas.  Then, I dared tell them, Look, 
throughout history, to kill the King you need the aid of the Palace Guard. That is YOU 
and your agency who have been complicit in every political murder of a President in 
U.S. history.  So, bet on it. This story is not going to sit well with the U.S. 
Secret Service.  Since he went to University, George W. Bush

[CTRL] how 501c3 regulations controls religion by the government

2002-09-22 Thread William Bacon


-Caveat Lector-

Does the IRS hate the Gospel and despise Bible-believing Christians? Has
the IRS become a police-state agency that regularly persecutes churches,
pastors, and ministries that still believe in old-fashioned patriotism?
Listed below are 35 things the IRS contends are prohibited of churches and
ministries. A pastor or ministry leader who violates the guidelines of the
IRS on these 35 prohibitions can have his church or group's tax exemption
revoked and be dealt with harshly by the IRS.

 These 35 prohibitions on churches and ministries demonstrate how the IRS
and the federal government now control churches and insure politically and
religiously correct behavior. Liberal Christian churches and false
religions such as Hunduism, Witchcraft, and Scientology are not affected
by these rules--only Bible-believing, Christian ministries and churches.
Also, keep in mind: These 35 things are not prohibited by law nor by the
Constitution. The IRS considers itself above the law and the Constitution.






According to the IRS, Christian churches, ministries, and organizations
may not:












1. Expose conspiracies.

2. Criticize the New World Order.

3. Say or publish anything negative about any politician, Republican or
Democrat.

4. Criticize government agencies and bureaus--the IRS, FBI, BATF, CIA,
EPA, DEA, OSHA, DOJ, etc.

5. Criticize an institution of government such as the White House, the
Congress, the Federal Reserve Board, or the Supreme Court.

6. Encourage citizens to call or write their congressman, senator,
governor, mayor, or other public official.

7. Criticize any proposed or pending bill or legislation that would take
away the rights and freedoms of the people.

8. Make disparaging remarks about, or criticize, any other faith group,
cult, or religion.

9. Expose or criticize the New Age Movement.

10. Support or encourage a law-abiding citizen's militia.

11. Support or encourage the Second Amendment, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms.

12. Discourage young women from getting an abortion, or endorse the
pro-life movement.

13. Teach that abortion, especially partial birth abortion, is murder and
is the killing of innocent babies.

14. Identify homosexuality as a sin and an abomination to God.

15. Express an opinion on any subject or issue.

16. Appeal to peoples' emotions by employing an evangelization method
(such as fire and brimstone preaching) not considered a reasoned
approach by the IRS.

17. Discuss or identify threats to Christianity.

18. Discuss subjects or topics the IRS deems sensationalist.

19. Criticize well-known public figures or institutions the IRS deems
worthy, such as the super-rich elite, international bankers, the
Hollywood movie industry, etc.

20. Publish or broadcast information on any topic without giving credence
to the opposing viewpoints of Christ's enemies.

21. Publish and offer books, tapes, or products that expose the elitist
plot against humanity and God.

22. Criticize the Pope or the Vatican, or contrast the New Catholic
Catechism with the truths found in the Holy Bible. (Note: Only liberal
churches are permitted by the IRS to criticize the Catholic Church).

23. Criticize the United Nations or such globalist groups as the Council
on Foreign Relations, the Bilderbergers, and the Trilateral Commission.

24. Criticize the Masonic Lodge, the Order of Skull  Bones, or other
secret societies.

25. Highlight or otherwise bring attention to immorality of public
officials or corruption in government.

26. Complain of government wrongdoing or injustice, such as happened at
Waco, Ruby Ridge, and elsewhere.

27. Criticize the Jewish ADL or other Jewish lobby groups.

28. Say anything positive about the religious right or the patriot
movement.

29. Support home schooling, home churches, or unregistered churches.

30. Spend money on missionary projects or charitable causes not approved
by the IRS.

31. Promote or encourage alternative healthcare (herbs, vitamins, etc.).

32. Expose false teachings of any kind by anyone.

33. Support or encourage persecuted Christians suffering under
anti-Christian regimes in Red China, Cuba, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia,
the United States, and elsewhere.

34. Ordain a pastor whose training or qualifications are not approved by
the IRS.

35. Advocate or teach any Bible doctrine that is politically or
religiously incorrect, or is inconsistent with any public policy
(abortion, feminism, gay rights, etc.) currently being enforced by the
IRS.









Please examine the above list of 35 prohibitions on Christian free speech
and activity by the IRS, and decide for yourself: Are conservative
Christian ministries and churches being selectively persecuted? Is the IRS
willfully violating the civil rights of Christian believers? Are Christian
believers receiving the equal protection of the law? What does the First
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution say?







How the Government is Using the IRS to Takeover and Control

[CTRL] UT Scarabbean Senior Secret Society


-Caveat Lector-

http://www.geocities.com/scarabbean_secret_society_ut/Click Here: A
HREF=http://www.geocities.com/scarabbean_secret_society_ut/;UT Scarabbean
Senior Secret Society/A
--
Much more at site.  Thanks, Wes.
Om
K
-
SCARABBEAN SENIOR SECRET SOCIETY




Is  a Mafia Cult at University of Tennessee Knoxville?


Is Dungeaters Anonymous a UT franchise of
CIA's Narco-Nazi Warlords, Yale's Skull and Bones and
Illuminati's Satanic, er, Luciferian bid for treasonous hostile takeover of
the
New World and the destruction of the United States of America?

Is Dung-Eater an apropriate name for UT students who live in a
nuclear toilet unflushed by a Mafia-connected garbage-cartel at
Earth's largest nuke dump?
When will UT do as Board of Regents at Pellissippi State and simply ban all
democratic elections and conduct interviews for Student Corporate
Government to brainwash unelected, appointed regional homerulers for
Future UN Inc.'s New World Odor? AKA Ponzi scheme replacement of all
Governments, Constitutions with private Corporate dictatorships (NGO -
Non-Governmental Organizations as United Nations names them) - and banning
ownership of all private property.
edited by John Lee



Non-political non-denominational non-discriminatory investigative
heck-raising of the Annointed Ones and their interlocking corporate boards of
directors in their New World Odor

Official logo of UT  animated by webmaster John Lee © free for download

A collection of dozens of news articles from pissied-off members of UT
student government and writers at Daily Beacon about pissed-off members of
 - video files and audio files on post-grad Secret Societies including
video of actual Ritual Killings at Knoxville News-Sentinel's Bohemian Grove -
and transcript of the webmaster chewed out by one of Ambassador Howard
Baker's Scarabbeans. Analysis of impact of secret societies on
democratic-republican governments at college, local, state, national and
international levels. The first half discusses background on secret societies
and the second half is dedicated to .
Masonic dagger of 8, 9, 10 degrees in Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction -
Initiation ritual for Freemasons and for other collegiate Secret Societies
are made under threat of assassination for revealing Official Secrets - Does
 do likewise?

Scarabs - AKA dung beetles - do fit in with the Illuminati's worship of
ancient Egypt and its pyramid schemes. Scarabbean does fit with the
observation by Common Cause that, Tennessee is the Cayman Islands of the
campaign finance system, similar to the money-laundering paradise of the
Caribbean. And Scarab is incidentally the name of the offshore racing
boats preferred by Pirates (incidentally the name of Scarabbean's
underground newsletter) and narco-bootleggers in real-world and on Miami
Vice, and the owner of Scarab Boats was gunned down at his manufacturing
plant in Florida. At the very least it provides blackmail material to ensure
compliance when calling upon alumni for future favors for the rest of their
livesor else. Is an invite to  just patronizing SGA so they won't whine
about being bossed by UT's politically appointed administration? Or, could it
be... SATAN?!
WANTED: Insider info on  initiation, blood oath (death mantra), quid
pro quo, rituals, machinations, location of temple, photos, audiotape,
videotape, ect. To contribute intelligence to this historical briefing,
please email the webmaster ASAP. Got an axe to grind? Here's your big chance!
NOTICE: Obviously, not every person in the  is evil, criminal or insane,
just as in all other segments of society. Estimates of evil, insane criminals
in the  range from 10% to 90% (depending upon the definitions), which is
the same figure for other secret societies and other professions. However,
when members of the  do go bad, they probably do so with greater ambition
and destruction. Most secret societies have Codes of Silence, like the
Mafia's Omerta or the Blue Wall of Silence for police, with rituals of
execution for narcing on the naughty. Likewise, no implication is made as to
good/evil of any religion or lack thereof. Great evil has certainly been
performed in the name of every religion, at least once a government got
hold of it. Perhaps half of all Scarabs fail to remain actively involved, but
even then may be called upon to perform whenever required. This webmaster
does not promote prohibitions which only benifit police-prison complex and
organized crime and lead to destruction of families and literal slavery of
millions in USA today (an American tradition). UT's Scarabbean Secret Society
is not to be confused with UT's Party of Darkness, which is not totally
secret, just a total joke. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 and
the First Amendment to the United States

Re: [CTRL] how 501c3 regulations controls religion by the government


-Caveat Lector-

Can you cite a source, please?


on 9/22/02 4:09 PM, William Bacon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 Does the IRS hate the Gospel and despise Bible-believing Christians? Has
 the IRS become a police-state agency that regularly persecutes churches,
 pastors, and ministries that still believe in old-fashioned patriotism?
 Listed below are 35 things the IRS contends are prohibited of churches and
 ministries. A pastor or ministry leader who violates the guidelines of the
 IRS on these 35 prohibitions can have his church or group's tax exemption
 revoked and be dealt with harshly by the IRS.

 These 35 prohibitions on churches and ministries demonstrate how the IRS
 and the federal government now control churches and insure politically and
 religiously correct behavior. Liberal Christian churches and false
 religions such as Hunduism, Witchcraft, and Scientology are not affected
 by these rules--only Bible-believing, Christian ministries and churches.
 Also, keep in mind: These 35 things are not prohibited by law nor by the
 Constitution. The IRS considers itself above the law and the Constitution.






 According to the IRS, Christian churches, ministries, and organizations
 may not:












 1. Expose conspiracies.

 2. Criticize the New World Order.

 3. Say or publish anything negative about any politician, Republican or
 Democrat.

 4. Criticize government agencies and bureaus--the IRS, FBI, BATF, CIA,
 EPA, DEA, OSHA, DOJ, etc.

 5. Criticize an institution of government such as the White House, the
 Congress, the Federal Reserve Board, or the Supreme Court.

 6. Encourage citizens to call or write their congressman, senator,
 governor, mayor, or other public official.

 7. Criticize any proposed or pending bill or legislation that would take
 away the rights and freedoms of the people.

 8. Make disparaging remarks about, or criticize, any other faith group,
 cult, or religion.

 9. Expose or criticize the New Age Movement.

 10. Support or encourage a law-abiding citizen's militia.

 11. Support or encourage the Second Amendment, the right of the people to
 keep and bear arms.

 12. Discourage young women from getting an abortion, or endorse the
 pro-life movement.

 13. Teach that abortion, especially partial birth abortion, is murder and
 is the killing of innocent babies.

 14. Identify homosexuality as a sin and an abomination to God.

 15. Express an opinion on any subject or issue.

 16. Appeal to peoples' emotions by employing an evangelization method
 (such as fire and brimstone preaching) not considered a reasoned
 approach by the IRS.

 17. Discuss or identify threats to Christianity.

 18. Discuss subjects or topics the IRS deems sensationalist.

 19. Criticize well-known public figures or institutions the IRS deems
 worthy, such as the super-rich elite, international bankers, the
 Hollywood movie industry, etc.

 20. Publish or broadcast information on any topic without giving credence
 to the opposing viewpoints of Christ's enemies.

 21. Publish and offer books, tapes, or products that expose the elitist
 plot against humanity and God.

 22. Criticize the Pope or the Vatican, or contrast the New Catholic
 Catechism with the truths found in the Holy Bible. (Note: Only liberal
 churches are permitted by the IRS to criticize the Catholic Church).

 23. Criticize the United Nations or such globalist groups as the Council
 on Foreign Relations, the Bilderbergers, and the Trilateral Commission.

 24. Criticize the Masonic Lodge, the Order of Skull  Bones, or other
 secret societies.

 25. Highlight or otherwise bring attention to immorality of public
 officials or corruption in government.

 26. Complain of government wrongdoing or injustice, such as happened at
 Waco, Ruby Ridge, and elsewhere.

 27. Criticize the Jewish ADL or other Jewish lobby groups.

 28. Say anything positive about the religious right or the patriot
 movement.

 29. Support home schooling, home churches, or unregistered churches.

 30. Spend money on missionary projects or charitable causes not approved
 by the IRS.

 31. Promote or encourage alternative healthcare (herbs, vitamins, etc.).

 32. Expose false teachings of any kind by anyone.

 33. Support or encourage persecuted Christians suffering under
 anti-Christian regimes in Red China, Cuba, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia,
 the United States, and elsewhere.

 34. Ordain a pastor whose training or qualifications are not approved by
 the IRS.

 35. Advocate or teach any Bible doctrine that is politically or
 religiously incorrect, or is inconsistent with any public policy
 (abortion, feminism, gay rights, etc.) currently being enforced by the
 IRS.









 Please examine the above list of 35 prohibitions on Christian free speech
 and activity by the IRS, and decide for yourself: Are conservative
 Christian ministries and churches being selectively persecuted? Is the IRS
 willfully violating the civil rights of Christian

[CTRL] American State Terrorism


-Caveat Lector-

from:
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/index.html
Click Here: A
HREF=http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/index.html;American
State Terrorism - Site Map/A
-
ACTION  NEWS  Solutions  Candles in the darkness  Revealing Quotes 1 2 3
 Letters  SEARCH


American State Terrorism

Site Map sections:
History  9-11  American/Israeli Terrorism  The Jenin Massacre  Mass-media
Deception
Police-state America  Fascist Americons  American Plutocracy  CIA, Nazis 
Neofascism
Iraq  Palestine  Afghanistan  Libya  Korea  Vietnam  Latin America 
Yugoslavia
Weapons of American Terrorism  American victims  Books  Bibliographies 
Solutions





The History of American State Terrorism
Home page   A basic introduction and general overview of American state
terrorism.
The Geopolitical Strategy of Imperial America
Chronology of Terror 1  2  3
Relatively brief summaries of most of the U.S. military/government terror
campaigns, genocides and CIA subversion campaigns.
The following books are among the best sources of information:
*   Rogue State:  A Guide to the Worlds Only Superpower


*   Killing Hope:  U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII


*   Western State Terrorism


*   The Real Terror Network:  Terrorism in Fact and Propaganda


*   The Culture of Terrorism


*   Against Empire


*   What Uncle Sam Really Wants


*   The Sword and the Dollar:  Imperialism, Revolution, and the Arms Race


*   To Kill A Nation:  The Attack on Yugoslavia


*   The Decline and Fall of the American Empire


*   Derailing Democracy:  The America the Media Dont Want You to See


*   Lies My Teacher Told Me:  Everything Your American History Textbook Got
Wrong


*   A Peoples History of the United States:  1492  Present


Americas Bloody History:
A Summary of Places and Dates
(This page features a 1.3 MB animated graphic)
1. Genocide of the American Indian Peoples  1493-2002
*   Central America  South America


*   Genocide and Oppression of the American Indian Peoples; Leonard Peltier
(Bibliography)

2. American Enslavement of the Irish, Scottish and English Working Class
Peoples  - 17th to 19th Centuries (Bibliography)


9-11 Terrorism
The United States Government Perpetrated the September 11 Attacks
The 3 BIG LIES About Iraq
The Israeli Connection To 9-11
Fox News Special Report: Israeli Spying on the U.S.
Massive Israeli Spy Ring Linked to September 11
9-11 Was a Mossad False Flag Operation
9-11, Mossad, the CIA and False Flag Operations
The CIA, Insider Trading and the WTC Terror Attack
Operation 911:  NO SUICIDE PILOTS
America: the Ultimate Terrorist
Fake Terror:  the Road to Dictatorship



Mass-media Deception
Americas War-Criminal M.O.
Revealing Quotes 3: Mass-Media Deception
Corporations Have a Chokehold on the U.S. Media
Professional Liars:  The Crooked Job of Corporate Journalism
Mass-Media Brainwashing in America
Inventing Reality:  The Politics of News Media
The Habits of Highly Deceptive Media:  Decoding Spin and Lies in Mainstream
News
The Real Terror Network:  Terrorism in Fact and Propaganda
Manufacturing Consent:  The Political Economy of the Mass Media
War, Lies and Videotape:  How Media Monopoly Stifles Truth
Censored 2000:  The Years Top 25 Censored Stories
The Hidden Persuaders:  What Makes Us Buy, Believe - and Even Vote - the Way
We Do?
Toxic Sludge is Good for You!:  Lies, Damn Lies and the Public Relations
Industry

3. American Enslavement and Oppression of the African Peoples  - 17th Century
to the Present Day (Bibliography)
*   Mumia Abu-Jamal:  Political Prisoner in America

4. The Plutocratic Presidency  1789-2002
5. American Genocide of the Philippine People  1899-1902
6. American Atomic-Genocide of the People of Hiroshima  Nagasaki  August,
1945
*   The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb

7. American Genocide of the Korean People  1945-1953
8. American Genocide of the Vietnamese People  1945-1974
9. American Genocide of the Laotian People  1965-1973
10. American Genocide of the Cambodian People  1969-1973
11. Chronology of U.S. Terrorism and Genocide of the Central American, South
American  Caribbean Peoples  - 19th Century to the Present Day
12. American/British Terrorism and Genocide of the Iraqi Peoples  - 1991 to
the Present Day
13. The Beast Reawakens
14. American/Nato Terrorism of the Yugoslavian Peoples  1992-2000
15. Police-State Brutality and the Battle of Seattle  1999
*   Terrorism Begins At Home:  Police Brutality in America

16. Imperial Hypocrisy: American state terrorism of the Afghan Peoples
2001-2002
17. Americas Techno-Fascist Future



The CIA, Nazis  Neofascism
The Beast Reawakens
Saving Private Power:  The Hidden History of The Good War
Deadly Deceits:  My 25 years in the CIA
Blackshirts and

[CTRL] HARVARD PREZ WARNS OF GROWING CAMPUS ANTI-SEMITISM...

2002-09-22 Thread klewis


-Caveat Lector-

http://president.harvard.edu/speeches/2002/morningprayers.html


Address at morning prayers
Memorial Church
Cambridge, Massachusetts

September 17, 2002
I speak with you today not as President of the University but as a
concerned member of our community about something that I never
thought I would become seriously worried about -- the issue of anti-
Semitism.

I am Jewish, identified but hardly devout. In my lifetime, anti-
Semitism has been remote from my experience. My family all left
Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. The Holocaust is for me
a matter of history, not personal memory. To be sure, there were
country clubs where I grew up that had few if any Jewish members,
but not ones that included people I knew. My experience in college
and graduate school, as a faculty member, as a government official
-- all involved little notice of my religion.

Indeed, I was struck during my years in the Clinton administration
that the existence of an economic leadership team with people like
Robert Rubin, Alan Greenspan, Charlene Barshefsky and many
others that was very heavily Jewish passed without comment or
notice -- it was something that would have been inconceivable a
generation or two ago, as indeed it would have been inconceivable a
generation or two ago that Harvard could have a Jewish President.

Without thinking about it much, I attributed all of this to progress --
to an ascendancy of enlightenment and tolerance. A view that
prejudice is increasingly put aside. A view that while the politics of
the Middle East was enormously complex, and contentious, the
question of the right of a Jewish state to exist had been settled in
the affirmative by the world community.

But today, I am less complacent. Less complacent and comfortable
because there is disturbing evidence of an upturn in anti-Semitism
globally, and also because of some developments closer to home.
Consider some of the global events of the last year:

There have been synagogue burnings, physical assaults on Jews, or
the painting of swastikas on Jewish memorials in every country in
Europe. Observers in many countries have pointed to the worst
outbreak of attacks against the Jews since the Second World War.

Candidates who denied the significance of the Holocaust reached
the runoff stage of elections for the nation's highest office in France
and Denmark. State-sponsored television stations in many nations
of the world spew anti-Zionist propaganda.

The United Nations-sponsored World Conference on Racism --
while failing to mention human rights abuses in China, Rwanda, or
anyplace in the Arab world -- spoke of Israel's policies prior to recent
struggles under the Barak government as constituting ethnic
cleansing and crimes against humanity. The NGO declaration at the
same conference was even more virulent.

I could go on. But I want to bring this closer to home. Of course
academic communities should be and always will be places that
allow any viewpoint to be expressed. And certainly there is much to
be debated about the Middle East and much in Israel's foreign and
defense policy that can be and should be vigorously challenged.

But where anti-Semitism and views that are profoundly anti-Israeli
have traditionally been the primary preserve of poorly educated
right-wing populists, profoundly anti-Israel views are increasingly
finding support in progressive intellectual communities. Serious and
thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-
Semitic in their effect if not their intent.

For example:

Hundreds of European academics have called for an end to support
for Israeli researchers, though not for an end to support for
researchers from any other nation.


Israeli scholars this past spring were forced off the board of an
international literature journal.


At the same rallies where protesters, many of them university
students, condemn the IMF and global capitalism and raise
questions about globalization, it is becoming increasingly common
to also lash out at Israel. Indeed, at the anti-IMF rallies last spring,
chants were heard equating Hitler and Sharon.


Events to raise funds for organizations of questionable political
provenance that in some cases were later found to support terrorism
have been held by student organizations on this and other
campuses with at least modest success and very little criticism.


And some here at Harvard and some at universities across the
country have called for the University to single out Israel among all
nations as the lone country where it is inappropriate for any part of
the university's endowment to be invested. I hasten to say the
University has categorically rejected this suggestion.

We should always respect the academic freedom of everyone to
take any position. We should also recall that academic freedom
does not include freedom from criticism. The only antidote to
dangerous ideas is strong alternatives vigorously advocated.

I have always throughout my life

[CTRL] [2] The Nazi Hydra - Ratlines:The CIA The Nazis


-Caveat Lector-

A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to
supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist
regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in
Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the
Nazi regime. . . .

Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist
regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help
Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there.

Another industrialist that was closely aligned with du Pont and involved in
the plot against FDR and also hindered the war effort was Andrew Mellon the
head of Alcoa. George Seldes had this to say about Alcoa:


If America loses the war it can thank the Aluminum Corporation of America
Secretary of Interior Harold Ickles, June 26,1941. By its cartel agreement
with I.G. Farben controlled by Hitler, Alcoa sabotaged the aluminum program
of the US air force. The Truman Committee heard testimony that Alcoa's
representative, A.H. Bunker a dollar a year head of the aluminum section of
the OPM prevented work on our $600,000,000 aluminum expansion program.
Congressman Pierce of Oregon said in May 1941: To date 137 days or 371/2% of
a year's production has been wasted in the effort to protect Alcoa's
monopolistic position. This delay translated into planes means 10,000
fighters or 1,665 bombers.

This of course is the answer to the boys on Guadalcanal and in Tunisia and
not absenteeism, the 48 hour week or wage increases to meet the cost of
living. 131

Today the Republicans controlled by a faction of fascists are still calling
for the elimination of one of the most successful government programs ever,
Social Security and enacting of the same agenda of Irenee du Pont.. The right
wingers since the Reagan years have passed huge tax bonanzas for the rich and
corporate America a policy followed by the Nazis. The Republicans have also
passed a huge excess of corporate welfare until the amount of corporate
welfare now exceeds social welfare by at least a factor of ten. In short the
Republican Party today will settle for nothing less than corporate rule. Such
an extreme form of capitalism or corporatism is at the heart of fascism..

But for this writer this time period is the answer to a question that has
plagued the writer like an open festering wound. The question arose in the
early 1980s in the period of darkness otherwise known as the Reagan
administration. In response to the Republicans debating on the floor of
congress of declaring ketchup as a vegetable and therefore a hot dog with
ketchup smeared on it constituted a balance meal, this writer began asking
the question of where did it all go wrong. This writer began looking
systematically at the Nixon administration, the JFK assassination,
McCarthyism and rejected them all. No it was during the war that a wholesale
change from liberal enlightenment to repression occurred first in the
business community, then spreading to the general public and eventually into
public policy. It was not a clear and straight transformation the change took
several diversions before the 1980s.

But it was during this period that the US adopted a policy of nationalism and
a phobia of communism, both traits of fascism. This was also the time that
the root of the extreme corporatism that the Republicans of today embrace and
advocate. Extreme corporatism is just another name for fascism. It was the
emergence of fascism in this time period that has lead to many of the
inequities of today. This writer believes that the failure of the US to adopt
a national health care policy like the rest of the industrial world can be
traced to this very time period. In fact Harry Truman first proposed such a
measure during this time period. Of course the right wingers of the time
attacked it with a vengeance labeling it as socialism or even communism.

The writer will also grant the reader that given the enormity of WWII that it
wold affect the future for a long period afterwards. But that doesn't account
for the wholesale change in the domestic opinions or politics. Phobias such
as the extreme fear of communism in the late 1940s and early 1950s are rarely
adopted by an entire population without first propagandizing the population.
In short national phobias are learned behavior. And in this case it was not
the elected leaders of the country teaching the lesson. But even more
importantly this is time period in which a permanent defense industry was
established. And just as the military-industrial complex formed the very
heart of the Nazi war machine, the military-industrial complex that
Eisenhower saw allowed the fascist to establish a power base within the US.

The writer will concede that these changes so far have not produced
full-blown fascism in the US. Some prefer the terms such as proto-fascism or
neo-Nazi, but that doesn't change the fact that once the

[CTRL] The Nazi Hydra - Ratlines:The CIA The Nazis


-Caveat Lector-

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html

The Nazi Hydra


In Fascist America
The Nazi Hydra In Fascist America is a currently an ongoing work in progress
of the White Rose. The Nazi Hydra was conceived to fill a gap in the
literature by providing a detailed overview of the influence of fascism
within the United States. The intent and motivation for such a project was
twofold: to sound an ominous warning as to the direction this country is
taking at the hands of the right wing and to provide a convenient all
encompassing source on fascism in the Untied States for the reader. In this
regards the chapters are heavily documented. And I urge the reader here and
throughout the book to read the sources cited for further details.When
complete the book is projected to span sixteen chapters. Chapters will be
made available on this web site as they are completed.

After two years into this project I now understand why such a book was never
attempted before. Such a detailed accounting of fascism within this country
would literally fill volumes. Some of the chapters are brutally long, yet I
feel that I have omitted far too many details for the sake of the reader. For
instance, the Chapter Ratlines covering the CIA and its reliance on Nazi war
criminals, is over 27,000 words or roughly 60 pages.
Many details had to be omitted in writing that chapter in setting up the
premise of how this over reliance of Nazi war criminals started the cold war,
influenced our foreign policy and even influence our medical testing on
orphans and prisoners. At least a half dozen excellent books exploring this
aspect of fascism comes to mind and the reader is referred to them
extensively in the chapter. But such omissions of details become a fact of
life in presenting a broad overview of a complex and many faceted topic.

In fact nothing remains unchanged from the original outline. Even the title
was changed to better reflect on the subject from the original title of High
Noon: in Fascist America. The real danger of fascism is that its so insidious
that it can creep into every crack of daily life unnoticed including reli
gious groups, hence the logic behind the change in title. Chapters were
omitted and others added as research dictated. Additional information and
revisions need and will be made in some of the chapters already written. But
such changes are the hallmark of good research.
Some readers will undoubtedly find the Nazi Hydra disturbing. They shudder at
reports of another Nazi war criminal being deported and the crimes against
humanity that he inflicted onto others. They fear to ask the question how
such a person could slip into the country or how many more are present.
Others may be livid with anger as the Nazi Hydra details the associations of
the Republican Party and past presidents: Nixon, Ford, Bush and Reagan with
Nazi war criminals. But history cannot be rewritten and it's a story that
must be told. Those that aided Nazi war criminals are no less guilty of
crimes against humanity than any of the Nazi war criminals and need be held
fully accountable at the end of a hangman's rope. As today we stand at the edg
e of a deep chasm with the right wing ready to shove us over the edge into
full-blown fascism.

Still others may find the Nazi Hydra as it was intended as a useful resource
and the danger that fascism presents to the world and the United States
today. In fact I have received an email from a wonderful lady in New Zealand
that has been using it as a reference in the forum MAI-NOT. Her email with
her name omitted appears in the rave review link below. The one thing I do
promise is the book will not end in darkness. The final chapter will be a
chapter detailing solutions to stopping fascism dead in its tracks. For the
reader that cannot wait one such proposal can be found in the Corporate
Welfare section in the links section of the White Rose. The proposed solution
to ending once and for all time corporate rule and domination is the proposed
constitutional amendment.

I would greatly appreciate if any reader has documentable evidence of fascism
or of right wing propaganda material to please email such material to me. One
particular item that I am currently seeking is a list of the twenty one steps
to communism originally put out by the John Birch Society in the 1960s. And
currently being promoted by a militia group from Arizona and recently found
posted on a bulletin board of a Midwest state university.

I hope you find the Nazi Hydra useful and please feel free to quote it or
cite it.

=


Ratlines:The CIA The Nazis

The mention of the CIA commonly brings to mind images of James Bond spy
trillers and images of cold war warriors fighting the evils of communism. But
more times than not the reality of CIA plots are images of the gang that
couldn't shoot straight. Examples abound of the absurd actions of the CIA and
its forerunner the OSS. During WWII the OSS became wrongly convinced that the

[CTRL] [3] The Nazi Hydra - Ratlines:The CIA The Nazis


-Caveat Lector-

Even more disturbing is the continuing support that these war criminals
receive once they are exposed and subjected to deportation hearings. The case
of a New York housewife by the name of Mrs. Hermine Braunstiener Ryan will be
used as an example. After the war she had first immigrated to Canada in 1958
she married an American and moved to Queens, New York. In 1963 she was became
a naturalized citizen, and in 1964 she was exposed as a former Nazi
concentration guard. One witness at the trial described how she had whipped
an inmate at Majdanek to death. Mrs. Ryan was a housewife of a tradesman who
had a hard time to make ends meet by her own account. How then was she able
to afford the services of the Barry law firm, one of the most expensive and
experienced law firms specializing in immigration, for almost a decade from
first being exposed in 1964 until the 1974 trial? Who funded the two research
trips Barrry made to Australia? The funding sources are unknown yet today,
but with the other incidents of interference with the prosecution that came
from within the judicial system, all fingers point towards the intelligence
community. The example of Mrs. Ryan illustrates two points that run common
throughout deportation cases. One the defendant is receiving top level help
most likely from the intelligence agencies and two invariably they involve
low level officials or guards. The top echelon of the former Nazi quisling
governments seems totally immune from prosecution even after being exposed
with a few notable exceptions. A case in point is that of Laszio Pasztor, a
convicted Nazi collaborator who was imprisoned for his role in WWII as a
member of the Hungarian Arrow Cross. Pastor was a diplomat for the Nazi
puppet government in Hungary. His name surfaced in the Bush campaign of 1988
as a worker for Paul Weyrich's Free Congress Foundation.42 No attempt has
been made to deport him. Earlier Pasztor was a leader of 1968 Nixon-Agnew
ethnic unit in the election campaign. Since then he was the organizer for the
Republican Ethnic Heritage Groups. These groups are composed of largely
fascist-minded emigres.43

But even more iniquitous was the numerous programs set up by various branches
of the intelligence community to grant visas to Nazi war criminals. Paperclip
is the most widely known and researched. However there were several other
programs in addition to Paperclip. Many of these evolved out of the right
wing hysteria over the evils of communism. Every intelligence agency was
trying to recruit former Nazis to deprive the Soviets of their use, including
those of England and France. The Soviets likewise recruited former Nazis.
Granting visas to Nazis or war criminals was explicitly against the laws and
prohibitions passed by congress and very clearly against the wishes of
Truman. In 1949 congress passed the Hundred Person Act which allowed the CIA
to bring in not more than 100 people in a year that were ineligible for visas
otherwise. The Pentagon had a similar measure.

The Hundred Person Act was originally passed as a means to control former war
criminals. The visa was to be only temporary and not permanent, thus if the
fascist once inside the US refused to work according to the agreement he
could be deported easily. In at least one case Wisner wanted to grant a
Beleyorussian Nazi permanent status under the Hundred Person Act until his
file in the National Archives showed him to be a communist.61 How the CIA
defines no derogatory information points to the heart of the matter in the
admission of the former Nazis to the US and the continuing cover up. Recently
a CIA official defined no derogatory information as no evidence of pro
Communist activities. Nazis are regarded as anti-Communism hence any evidence
of Nazi activity is not derogatory. Additionally the CIA similarly uses a
narrow definition of employees and agents to stymie investigators and
researchers. Likewise, the FBI uses similar narrow definitions. The FBI
distinguishes between informants and confidential sources, casual sources and
volunteers. The FBI refuses to even release the names of confidential sources
to the assistant attorney general of the Criminal Bureau. Intelligence
agencies also change their filing system often. Once old file clerks retire
all memory of the old file system is erased and even the agency cannot find
it. For instance the CIA could not even find the Gehlen collection until it
was furnished the exact cryptonym.62

Preceding the Hundred Person Act by a year, Project Bloodstone began
operations in 1948. Bloodstone itself can be thought of as the turning point
from tactic to strategic use of former Nazis. Up until Bloodstone the use of
former Nazis and their quislings was more short term or even exploitation of
their knowledge. With Bloodstone the objectives were longer term and more
strategic in nature. Bloodstone was rather short-lived ending in 1950 when it
was superseded by other programs under direct CIA

[CTRL] [4] The Nazi Hydra - Ratlines:The CIA The Nazis


-Caveat Lector-

Up until now we have only looked at the use of the German scientists in
chemical and biological warfare. But in 1949 the work at Edgewood shifted
focus and began looking at psychochemicals beginning with LSD in an effort to
find the perfect truth serum. The key sources of information were from those
that had worked at I.G. Farben. Some were imprisoned but they were released
temporary to work for the Army Chemical Corps. This was the very birth of a
much larger CIA operation that became known as MK Ultra. The original
operation was Bluebird, which then evolved first into Artichoke before
becoming MK-Ultra. Unfortunately CIA Director Richard Helms ordered the CIA
records of MK-Ultra destroyed in 1973. Remaining records suggest hundreds if
not thousands of people were used as test subjects and involved the
collaboration with several universities, mental hospitals, prisons and drug
rehab centers.106 The experiments were conducted without the test subjects
knowledge and resulted in several deaths including that of Frank Olsen.
Others have reported being continuing problems from being test subjects.
Others attempted suicide of which some were successful. The army's and CIA's
response was to cover up the project. But the operation evolved beyond just
the military-intelligence community. The CIA enlisted help with MK-Ultra with
a host of university collaborators including the Universities of Delaware,
Maryland and a host of others.105

Just as the immigration of Nazis and war criminals into the US involved the
use of several projects of which Paperclip is the most widely known such is
the case of MK-Ultra. There were 149 sub projects under MK-Ultra. The use of
drugs for truth serum and for mind control were conducted under a bewildering
list of Project or Operations. Below is a short synopsis of some of those
projects.


MKDELTA: This was apparently the first project established by the CIA in
October, 1952, for the use of biochemicals in clandestine operations. It may
never have been implemented operationally.

MKULTRA: This was a successor project to MKDELTA established in April, 1953,
and terminating some time in the late 1960's probably after 1966. This
program considered various means of controlling human behavior. Drugs were
only one aspect of this activity.

MKNAOMI: This project began in the 1950's and was terminated at least with
respect biological projects, in 1969. This may have been a successor to
MKDELTA. Its purpose was to stockpile severely incapacitating and lethal
materials, and to develop gadgetry for the dissemination of these materials.

MKSEARCH: This was apparently a successor project to

MKULTRA, which began in 1965 and was terminated in 1973. The objective of the
project was to develop a capability to manipulate human behavior in a
predictable manner through the use of drugs.

MKCHICKWIT: This was apparently a part of the MKSEARCH program. Its objective
was to identify new drug developments in Europe and Asia and to obtain
information and samples.

MKOFTEN: This was also apparently a part of the MKSEARCH project. Its
objective was to test the behavioral and toxicological effects of certain
drugs on animals and humans.107

STARGATE: Investigated the use of ESP, paranormal, remote viewing military
uses of telekinesis type research that was done from an uncertain start date
up until 1984.116

Another aspect of MK-Ultra that is not widely known is that it extended
beyond the borders of the US. Experiments were also conducted in Canada by
Dr. Ewen Cameron at McGill University's Allain Memorial

Institute. At least the Canadian government has compensated the test subjects
with almost $7 million dollars.108 Another operation under MK-Ultra was
Operation Midnight Climax. This operation was ran by the contract agent
George Hunter White, a narcotics officer. White hired drug addicted
prostitutes to lure customers to a CIA-financed bordello, the customers then
given drinks containing LSD. White would then observe the customers through a
two-way mirror.109 The following quote will suffice as the final example of th
e ethical nature of these experiments.


One particularly odious project was run by Dr Harris Isabel, Director of the
Public Service Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky - a facility specializing in
drug abuse. Asked by the CIA to discover a range of 'synthetic' drugs, Isabel
began experimenting on captive black inmates. Anxious to please his CIA
bosses he daily fed his guinea pigs large doses of LSD, mescaline, marijuana,
scopolamine and other substances. In exchange for participating in the
experiments, the inmates received injections of high quality morphine,
sometimes getting 'shot-up' three times a day, depending on their
co-operation. Brought before the Senate subcommittees in 1975, Isabel saw no
contradiction in providing hard drugs to the very addicts he was employed to
cure. 110

There is one additional area in which Nazi scientists were used in
experimentation on human

[CTRL] FW: A Different take:a conservative ex-Marine Speaks out


-Caveat Lector-

-- Forwarded Message

 Home »   Top Stories »
 An Anti-War Movement of One
 By Philip Gold, Seattle Weekly
 September 20, 2002

 Our national myth showed us that we were good, our technology made us strong,
 and our bureaucracy gave us standard operating procedures. It was not a
 winning combination.


 So judged a wise historian, Loren Baritz, about how we wandered, open-eyed and
 fuzzy-minded, into Vietnam. Twenty years ago, when I first read his
 still-undiscovered masterpiece, Backfire, I cringed. So this is how we do
 things. This is us. It's going to happen again.


 It's happening again. And of late, I've taken to constituting myself as an
 anti-war movement of one -- a man of impeccable conservative credentials and
 long experience in the national-security field, a grumpy old Marine, who has
 grown infuriated with and appalled by both the conservative embrace of
 disaster and the enormity of the smallness of what passes for the anti-war
 movement today.


 Yes, technology makes us strong, possessed of a military such as the world has
 never seen. But the myths now come to us less out of our own wishes and
 experiences than courtesy of an ugly cabal, half-Pentagon, half-media.


 The Pentagon half: It's not so much el jefe, Secretary of Defense Donald
 Rumsfeld (a good man and an excellent SECDEF), as some of the little jefitos
 running around. You want names? Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and
 the denizens of the Defense Policy Board, an unpaid in-house think tank headed
 by Reaganite retread Richard Perle, a.k.a. The Prince of Darkness, a moniker
 he earned in the 1980s for his love of confrontation for the sake of
 confrontation and of all things nuclear.


 The media half? Again, not just the Big Guys, the Foxes (I like O'Reilly) and
 the MSNBCs (Nachman's cool). It's also a couple slick policy rags more notable
 for their influence than their circulation. The Weekly Standard and its allied
 P.R. machine, the Project for the New American Century, come to mind -- the
 Bill Kristols, et al.


 Who are these people? Generically, they've been called American Gaullists,
 after France's 20th-century all-purpose savior, Charles France Without
 Greatness Isn't France de Gaulle. But greatness without grace isn't
 greatness. The current D.C. version: America Without Greatness Isn't America.
 Let's go thump somebody. It'll be quick and easy and cheap and great, great
 fun and anyway, as a recent New American Century fax addressed to opinion
 leaders assures us, Baghdad won't be like Mogadishu because this time we have
 the will to win.


 Le Grand Charles, who knew from wars both world and colonial, would have
 scorned anything so stupid and so glib. These men aren't Gaullists. They're
 Prussians, a new aristocracy of aggression that combines 19th-century Prussian
 pigheadedness with a most un-Prussian inability to read a map or a ledger
 book, and a near total lack of military -- let alone combat -- experience. Ask
 these people to show you their wounds, and they'll probably wave a Washington
 Post editorial at you.


 As for procedures -- the procedures pertaining to going to war -- the
 administration's strategy (or lack thereof) can only be described as bizarre.
 OK, so maybe they're practicing psychological warfare, or even their own brand
 of taqiya, an Arabic word connoting the right and duty of believers to lie to
 infidels. (Why not? The Islamic world seems to have adopted a Jewish
 communications strategy known as kvetching.) But when a president of the
 United States tells us that -- not to worry -- if he decides to go to war,
 he'll definitely ask the Congress for support, and -- again, not to worry --
 he'll explain it to the American people and we'll understand, it's enough
 to make you join the anti-war movement.


 What anti-war movement? When you look at what passes for resistance
 nowadays, you cringe in embarrassment that this is what's left of the left.
 Pompous. Arrogant. Self-righteous. Self-referent. Impotence chic at its
 finest. Punch up www.notinourname. net and read their pledge of resistance.
 Or imagine my feelings -- I almost said, Feel my pain -- when I did a local
 church panel recently. A man in the audience asked if America would die like
 Rome, Nazi Germany, and the British Empire. One panelist agreed that, yes,
 America will die. The audience applauded.


 And that's why I've come to be an anti-war movement of one, talking to anyone
 who will listen, not about how evil or how good we are, but about the world as
 it is and the vortex we're approaching.


 On Sept. 10, 2001, the Beltway couldn't decide whether the defense budget
 should be $310 billion or $312 billion. The Weekly Standard crowd was
 demanding Rumsfeld's resignation for refusal to spend more money faster.
 Today, annual defense and homeland-security expenditures have swooshed past
 $400 billion. At this rate, we will spend more on defense in this decade than
 we did directly

[CTRL] .... the skull and crossed bones. KZ [concetration camp] guardians proudly labeled themselves members of Death's Head units


-Caveat Lector-

An excerpt from:
The Last Nazi  The Life and Times of Dr. Joseph Mengele
Gerald Astor©1985
Donald I Fine, Inc
ISBN 0-917657-46-2
305 pages
-
 the skull and crossed bones. KZ [concetration camp] guardians proudly
labeled themselves members of Death's Head units.


 this morning that we are at anus mundi. 

The concentration camp (KZ in the vernacular) German style, first appeared in
1933 at Dachau, about thirty miles from Munich. Herding together alien
peoples did not originate with Nazis. Ghettos were an ancient tradition in
Europe. In the United States indigenous Indians were taken off to
reservations and in the Soviet Union, dissidents and criminals were and still
are dispatched to Gulags.

Dachau was started by the SA(Brownshirts) as a place to put kidnap victims, a
convenient place to terrorize and kill opponents. Gustav von Kahr, head of
the Bavarian state government which suppressed Hitler's 1923 Putsch, was
hacked to death with pickaxes and his body discarded in a swamp near Dachau.
The KZ seemed like such a good idea that once the Nazis took power fifty of
them mushroomed around Germany. Initially, the camps were deemed a temporary
measure. Hitler himself announced a Christmas Eve amnesty for 27,000 inmates
in 1933, but Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler ignored the directive and
freed only a few persons.

Following the murder of Rohm and the decline of the SA, Himmler and the SS
received control of the camps. Smaller, inefficient operations closed down.
The Nazis constructed Buchenwald near Weimar, Sachsenhausen near Berlin,
while Ravensbrucke in the vicinity of Mecklenburg was reserved for women.
Dachau expanded, and after the .4nschluss absorbing Austria, the SS erected
Mauthausen near Linz.

At first the camps held alleged political leftists, particularly communists,
clergymen who voiced opposition, editors whose papers were perceived as
anti-Nazi and a group lumped together as undesirables. These included
homosexuals and some common criminals. In the beginning Jews as a group were
not indiscriminately thrown into concentration camps.

An SS thug named Theodor Eicke was commissioned as the first inspector of the
KZs. He instilled a twisted esprit de corps. Recruits to the staff underwent
a series of humiliations and physical hazings. Eicke forced them to watch
floggings and tortures of prisoners. Any sign of compassion or revulsion was
considered a dereliction of duty. He created a new insignia, the
Totenkopfverbande, the skull and crossed bones. KZ guardians proudly labeled
themselves members of Death's Head units. Eicke and his cadre trained the men
to accept merciless treatment of prisoners as evidence of high devotion to
the cause. The guards, though, were also taught that however brutally they
behaved their acts should bear a surface legality. Discipline and
professionalism were to be hallmarks of KZ warders.

In perverse theory, the concentration camps were to rehabilitate inmates,
show them the errors of their thinking, and convince them to support the
regime. The rehabilitation employed primitive behavioralist
training-negative reinforcement to the extreme. Eicke decreed hanging for
anyone who politicizes, holds inciting speeches and meetings, forms cliques,
loiters around with others, who for the purpose of supplying the propaganda
of the opposition with atrocity stories, collects true [author's italics] or
false information about the concentration camp; receives such information,
buries it, talks about it to others, smuggles it out of the camp into the
hands of foreign visitors . . .

He also announced execution on the spot for anyone attacking an SS
representative, for refusing to obey or work, or for bawling, shouting,
inciting or holding speeches while marching or at work. Critical remarks in
a letter home could be worth two weeks of solitary confinement and
twenty-five lashes.

(Some similarities in approach show up in the camps created by the Vietnamese
and the Cambodians for the re-education and indoctrination of those
considered insufficiently supportive of the regimes of the 1970s.)

By the time World War Il began, the concentration camps were a going series
of operations. To be sure, the men entitled to sport the Death's Head
insignia were not the elite of the SS. Many were drawn from a pool of SS
rejects.

The conquest of Poland offered the Nazi hierarchy more than territory and
economic gains. It could provide the opportunity to make Western Europe and
particularly Germany, Judenrein  free of Jewish inhabitants. The subject
peoples of Poland and the Soviet Unionfor the Germans recognized that war
with Stalin was inevitablewould serve as slave labor. The Polish real estate
could house factories exploiting the local population and absorb the Jews
shipped east.

pps 33-35


The first concern of the Americans was that in Joseph Mengele they had
another Klaus Barbie case, wherein a known war criminal was hired by U.S.
intelligence for

[CTRL] War-Mongers, Death-Merchants, Killers: America's War Machine and the Carlyle G

-Caveat Lector-
http://www.babelmagazine.com/

War-Mongers, Death-Merchants, Killers: America's War Machine and the Carlyle Group (part one)
by Victor Thorn

Before beginning this article, Iâd like to make it perfectly clear that I am not an anti-war peacenik that bows to the altar of pacifism. Instead, I take the stance that if any personâs family, country, house, or personal being is attacked, they should come out shooting, throwing fists, or dropping bombs. If they donât, that person or nation will get bowled-over day after day with little hope of survival or respect.

With this in mind, Iâd also like to note that there are people and leaders in this world that are evil to the core, and counterproductive to humanity as a whole. When these figures threaten us or our sovereignty, they should be dealt with in the harshest terms possible. When viewed in this light, why should we excuse a group of bloodthirsty hit-men from thrusting the United States into another war for the sheer sake of making huge profits for their respective companies, or for furthering the aims of the New World Order Controllers? If the following men have their way, the titles beside their names will ring true with frightening clarity. Why? Because Americaâs War Machine is gearing up once again to feed its bloodlust and greed, and the men below are responsible for lighting its fuse:

Richard Clarke: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Paul Wolfowitz: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
William Kristol: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Richard Perle: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Dick Cheney: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Henry Kissinger: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Donald Rumsfeld: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
Frank Carlucci: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
James Baker: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
George Bush, Sr.: War-monger, death-merchant, killer?
(George W. Bush wasnât included because he doesnât make any decisions for himself.)

The list could go on to include those shadowy figures that have these men do their dirty work, but what Iâd like to focus on is the visible mechanics of how our War Machine operates (i.e. those who grease its wheels to keep it churning along its course). So, what Iâm going to do in this essay is point-out how money and oil interests led us to our current situation, then how the Carlyle Group is leading us into war by using former government officials to DETERMINE public policy.

THE WAR MACHINE

To get things rolling, hereâs a recent quote from Lt. Colonel Steven Butler that appeared in a Monterey newspaper on 5-26-02. âOf course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism.â And what did this revelation bring to Lt. Col. Butler? Answer: his dismissal from the U.S. Military.

NBC News weighed in with a similar story, reporting, âOnly two days before the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington, President Bush was given a âdetailed war planâ to dismantle Osama bin Ladenâs network.â

I could begin delving into all the âdid Bush knowâ evidence, but instead Iâd like to show how various characters in the public eye are tied to the War Machine and the oil industry. One of these men is Richard Clark, who has the following credentials:

- Chief of the CSG (Counter-terrorism Security Group)
- Member of the Cyber Security Task Force
- Member of the Homeland Security Council
- Member of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Committee
- Coordinator, National Security Council on Counter-Terrorism

In other words, if anyone in America knows about security, itâs Richard Clarke. In fact, itâs been said that this man worked virtually day and night during 2001 in the CSG, and was exposed to tremendous amounts of information on the threat of impending terrorist attacks. Clarke even commented on the intelligence data he received on the upcoming Al Qaeda attack: âIt all came together in the third week of June. The CIAâs view was that a major terrorist attack was coming in the next several weeks.â

On May 23, 2002, MSNBC confirmed that Richard Clarke advised the FAA to issue warnings about possible hijacking threats. And when did he do that? June 22, 2001. Then, on July 5, 2001, he called a CSG meeting, followed by a get-together with Condaleeza Rice and Bush Chief of Staff Andrew Card. After that, he met again with the CSG, FBI, FAA, and INS (Immigration and Naturalization Services). At these meetings he was quoted as saying, âSomething spectacular is going to happen.â What do you think he was referring to â the National Tiddlywinks Championship in Hoboken? Hardly.

In that same month (July, 2001), Clarke was also aware of a meeting between the Pakistani and Taliban Ambassadors in Karachi where they discussed rumors of an Al-Qaeda attack on America. Thatâs two months before 9-11. Clarke also

[CTRL] scary poll

-Caveat Lector-



We are running a poll here in England 
over 3 days the question put to the British People is Should we the British 
assist US and invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein?
99% say yes 1% say no.
I was shocked at this result from just 
talking to people i would have thought it would have been the other way 
around.
Have you all noticed that apart from the 
US no one has said anything about what the Israeli government are doing to 
Yasser Arafat.
Would there be comments if the table was 
turned and the Palestinians were bulldozing Sharon and cutting off his water 
supply and removing his airconditioning units.
I suppose the next thing will be speakers 
put outside his headquarters blasting him with radiowaves and unearthly 
sounds.
The world sleeps!
The Mermaid x

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[CTRL] Fwd: bush reich.....by Bill Gallagher


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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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---BeginMessage---

-Caveat Lector-

BUMPER STICKER ON BILLS BUS:

INSTEAD OF BEING BORN AGAIN, WHY NOT JUST GROW UP?




 Pick a side America, any side. It matters not which side you choose,
the point is that you stay divided.  If too many of you pick one particular
side, rest assured that the powers who control your information media will
carefully manipulate that media through various incentives and other
pressures, to convince enough of you to switch sides, thereby keeping your
division as nearly perfect as possible.  They who divide you will use
religion, science, sports, drugs, sexwhatever it takes to achieve this
oh so necessary division of you, America.  Our last royal election a case in
point.  50-50.  Nearly perfect and what a SHOW!  You see, division is very
very profitable, always has been, so it is contrived, and controlled, as a
profit making venture, and nothing is as profitable as war, a Violent
division, which is what all this is working towards in the end, anyway.  It
is the ultimate goal, because what better way to tax you than to convince
you some schmuck is after your hard earned groceries and needs a severe ass
kicking?  The American sheople lap it up like livestock at the feeding
trough.  The television is that  feeding trough, and there we feed our
heads, much to our loss.  It is not called ³Programming² for nothing.
 Within this Control agenda of dividing the people of America for
profit,  there exists yet another agenda of confusion, and we shall call
this agenda ³The Exercise of Opposites².  It is used to keep you guessing
and hopelessly confused, and it works.  It works WELL.  It has been
practiced for a long time by a small group of people who fancy themselves an
elite, and as far as mind control is concerned they truly are an elite,
because they have used these predatory practices to strip countries like
America of their wealth, and then used that wealth to further develop
insidious methods of Control which resemble in no uncertain terms High
Psychological Science.  Simply put, playing both ends against the middle has
become the normal way of doing business here, and elsewhere in the world.
Exploitive research like projects Overcast, Paperclip, MK-ULTRA, and HAARP,
have all been funded by the American taxpayer and it can be easily proven by
inquiring minds that these ³Science² projects benefit only the perps who use
them (Deployed through the information media) to control the way you think.
Sad but true.  Look it up, if you can drag yourself away from your state
sponsored programming long enough.
 Anyway, this ³Exercise of Opposites² is used to exploit ignorance and
emotion, so both of those are played up very big in the media;  call it ³The
Dumbing Down Of America² if you like.  This all happens so that people like
the pharmaceutically invested bush reich can clean up their illegal drug
profits through buying into legal drug sales, then corner BOTH markets
(Legal/illegal) by starting things like the ³War on Drugs².  Har har.  What
a real farce these jokers are.  What is really funny is that they have grown
so far out of touch they thought no one would ever discover their treasonous
buying and selling of American souls.  A must read is Barry and the Boys:
The CIA, The Mob, And Americas Secret History², by Daniel Hopsicker.  The
drug dealing of the bush scum is just the tip o¹ the iceberg friends.
Believe you me.  
   Another instance of the exercise of opposites concerns the treatment
of Pakistanis by Israel, the latter using distinctly nazi-like methods to
enforce their control over ³An Inferior Race².  Other than the fact that
Israel has been known to say ³They Own America², I

Re: [CTRL] scary poll

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 9/22/02 5:16:01 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

We are running a poll here in England over 3 days the question put to the British People is Should we the British assist US and invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein?
99% say yes 1% say no.

Pretty depressing!
Apparently the propagandists are having a field day over there too.

Have you all noticed that apart from the US no one has said anything about what the Israeli government are doing to Yasser Arafat.

The US didn't say much about it either...

Would there be comments if the table was turned and the Palestinians were bulldozing Sharon and cutting off his water supply and removing his airconditioning units.

You know there would be! And imagine the outrage if a Palestinian flag were planted on the property of the Knesset! That would be grounds for killing scores of rock-throwing children.

Bill.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Israeli army continues to kill Palestinian civilians

-Caveat Lector-

From: Nehad Fattah [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:12 PM
Subject: Israeli army continues to kill Palestinian civilians

The Palestine Monitor,
A PNGO Information Clearinghouse

Urgent Update
Israeli army continues to kill Palestinian civilians
September 21, 2002

The Ramallah headquarters of the Palestinian Authority continued to come
under sustained Israeli attack overnight and this morning.  The destruction
wrought upon the compound is so complete that according to eyewitnesses,
only one or two buildings remain standing, and the fear currently is that
these buildings have been severely damaged structurally - and may collapse.

However, this assault is just one of many that the Israeli army has
perpetrated overnight.

Three houses were demolished - two in Qalqiliya and one in Qabatiya near
Jenin. According to the mayor of Qabatiya, Qasem Al-Awneh, nine tanks, a
bulldozer and several jeeps entered the town at 3AM, gave the family in the
house 15 minutes to evacuate and then proceeded to tear it down. The story
was repeated in Qalqiliya when several tanks, jeeps and APCs entered the
city, and pulled down two houses. One of the houses destroyed was only
rented by the family of a Palestinian the Israelis claim is wanted.

In Gaza a 17-year-old, Haitham Said Nattat was killed instantly when
shrapnel severed his head from his body, shrapnel which was the result of
the indiscriminate Israeli tank fired at the houses of the Rafah refugee
camp. 15 people were injured, seven of those children.

Also in Rafah, Abdullah Al-Aghalbly, 14 years old, was killed while walking
outside - shot with live ammunition in his chest.

Israeli soldiers also killed Palestinians on Thursday evening, when the
drama in the Ramallah headquarters was unfolding. Ahmed Lubad, a 36-year-old
mentally disabled man from the At-Tufah neighbourhood in Gaza city was shot
walking in the area. He died instantly when bullets hit his chest and face.
Samira Ad-Dehdar, 25, was cowering in her bedroom of her house also in
At-Tuffah neighbourhood when a bullet, one of the hundreds of Israeli
bullets fired randomly in the civilian area, hit her in the neck.

Furthermore, the paralysing curfew that was in place before the events of
Thursday remains in place. In Nablus the curfew has been imposed for 91
days, lifted for a mere 89 hours, in Jenin the 91 days 24 hour curfew has
been lifted for 434 hours; since the school term began three weeks ago
children in Jenin and Nablus have been unable to attend school.

For more information contact The Palestine Monitor +972 2 2985372 or
+972 (0)59 254218 and see www.palestinemonitor.org

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] The Truth About Morris Dees

-Caveat Lector-
http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?fileName=lsn20020922113726.html

The Dees Court Papers
What One Of America's Richest Anti-Hate Groups Doesn't Want You To Know About Their Founder

9/22/02 11:37:26 AM

Alabama Court Of Civil Appeals

Montgomery, Alabama -- IN THE ALABAMA COURT OF CIVIL APPEALS CASE NO. CIV. 2114
MAUREENE BASS DEES, Appellant -vs- MORRIS S. DEES, Appellee.
ON APPEAL FROM THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA
BRIEF OF APPELLANT

MAURY SMITH
JULIA S. WATERS
CHARLES M. CROOK
Attorneys for the Appellant

OF COUNSEL:
SMITH, BOWMAN, THAGARD,
CROOK CULPEPPER
P.O. Box 78
Montgomery, Al 36101
Telephone: (205) 834-6500

ORAL ARGUMENT REQUESTED

TABLE OF CONTENTS

STATEMENT OF THE CASE
THE ISSUES
STATEMENT OF THE FACTS
A. Morris' Financial Condition
B. The Cause Of The Breakup; Vicki Booker McGaha
C. The Reconciliation
D. Morris Can't Give Up His Mistress
E. Maureene Is Compelled To Seek Divorce
F. Morris Sets A Trap
G. Morris' Trap Works: The Hotel Room Agreement
H. Morris' Sexual Appetite
A. Dianne Hicks
B. Cathy Bennett
C. Judith Rogers
D. Deborah Levy
E. Pamela Horowitz
F. Charlie Springman
G. Morris' Stepdaughter
H. Morris' Future Daughter-in-law

A. Morris' Financial Condition

At the time of the divorce, Morris' net worth, based upon his own
calculations, was $3,876,029 (R. 1252, et. seq; Def. Ex. 86-87; Stipulation,
R. 231). His annual income exceeds $230,000 (Def. Ex. 76-79), of which more
than $160,000 annually is derived from municipal bonds upon which Morris pays
no income tax (Def. Ex. 28).

B. The Cause Of The Breakup: Vicki Booker McGaha

Although Maureene was subjected to a number of degrading sexual episodes by
Morris during the marriage which will be discussed hereafter, neither Morris
nor Maureene ever wanted or sought a divorce until Morris established his
permanent relationship with Vicki Booker McGaha in August of 1977. It was
Morris' absolute refusal to give up his mistress, whom he was supporting and
whom he had made pregnant, that directly caused termination of Maureene's
marriage and forced her to institute these divorce proceedings.

In August, 1977, Morris tried the "Weisenhunt case" in Birmingham, and became
acquainted with Vicki Booker McGaha, who was a member of that jury (R. 1459).
Thereafter, Morris and Vicki began a sexual affair which has still not ended,
and which was the cause of termination of two marriages.

Following their meeting in Birmingham during the Weisenhunt trial in August,
1977, Morris had sexual relations with Vicki at Oak Mountain State Park in
Shelby County (R. 1461), the Prattville Holiday Inn, the Holiday InnEast, the
Governor's House Hotel, and the Howard Johnson Motel (R. 1462).

The first trip that he took with her was a four day trip to the "Cajun
Country" in Louisiana on a motorcycle in April, 1978 (R. 1464-1465). In
August, 1978, Vicki joined Morris in Columbus, Georgia, where she stayed with
him at the Holiday Inn (R. 1468).

Maureene first found out about Vicki when she was contacted by Vicki's
husband, who subsequently turned over to her letters that Morris had written
to Vicki and tape recordings of conversations that Morris had had with Vicki
(R. 361-362). Mr. McGaha divorced Vicki McGaha in May, 1978 (R. 1469).

Around this time, at Morris' request, Maureene met with Morris and Vicki at
the Sheraton Mountain Brook Inn to discuss the situation (R. 358). During this
conversation Morris told Maureene that he was in love with Vicki, that they
wanted to be together, and they didn't care if they had anything but a shack
with a dirt floor if they could be together (R. 358). Morris told Maureene
that he and Vicki were going to live together and they they hoped she would
understand. Maureene learned that the affair had been going on since August of
1977 (R. 280-281, et seq). In later conversations Morris cried and told
Maureene that he loved them both, and that "Vicki has such beautiful blue eyes
and she can see right through you" (R. 360). Following this meeting, Maureene
separated from Morris for the first time and filed the first suit for divorce
(R.361).

C. The Reconciliation

After Maureene and Morris had been separated for about four to six weeks,
Morris telephoned her and said that he had made a mistake, that he did love
Maureene and wanted her back, and he swore never to see Vicki McGaha again (R.
282). To assure her of this Morris arranged another meeting among the three of
them as Joe Levin's lake cabin on July 3, 1978 (R. 367, et seq).

This meeting was bizarre. In a three-way conversation Morris would first ask
Vicki to state how much she loved him, and he would then turn to Maureene to
ask her to state how much she loved him (R. 367). It was as if he were staging
a contest to see who loved him the most, or who would do the most for him (R.
367). After a lengthy conversation, during which Morris had taken his

[CTRL] Israel Plants Flag in Palestinian Headquarters


-Caveat Lector-

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/264/world/Israel_plants_flag_in_Palestin:.shtml

Israel Plants Flag in Palestinian Headquarters;
Arafat Calls for End to Militant Attacks
By Jamie Tarabay
Associated Press | Boston Globe

Saturday, 21 September, 2002

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) Israel planted its flag in Yasser Arafat's compound
Saturday, and shell bursts shook his offices, chipping away at the building
in an ever-tightening siege designed to make the Palestinian leader
surrender militants or leave into exile.

Soldiers with loudspeakers in the evening shouted to the estimated 200
people holed up in Arafat's offices to evacuate the building the last one
still standing in the compound or else troops would blow up the building.

Israel has insisted that it does not aim to harm Arafat even as it has torn
his command center down around him over the past three days, and it appeared
unlikely troops would carry out the threat.

Earlier Saturday, Arafat appealed to Palestinian militants to halt attacks
on Israel but refused to hand over 20 wanted members of his entourage. He
spent the day making telephone calls and faxes from a conference room in the
battered building, surrounded by shattered cars and barbed wire.

An Israeli shell overnight destroyed a staircase in the building, trapping
Arafat to four rooms on the second floor of the building. In the morning,
several more shells struck the building, including one that hit the floor
above and dusted Arafat with dirt and debris.

At one point, Israel troops raised a flag on a nearby building in the
compound. When told of the flag, Arafat got up to take a look from a window,
said Hani al-Hassan, a senior PLO official trapped inside.

Israel, preparing for a long standoff, said it would not withdraw from the
compound before the wanted men surrender and left open the possibility that
even then troops might not leave.

Israeli officials have told the Palestinians the assault, which was launched
after a Tel Aviv suicide attack last week, seeks to isolate Arafat. But
Israeli television cited defense officials saying the assault aims to make
conditions so unbearable that the Palestinian leader leaves into exile.

The United States and the European Union have urged Israel to show restraint
and have been trying to defuse the crisis amid fears in Washington that a
flareup between Israel and the Palestinians could complicate its campaign
against Iraq.

France demanded Saturday that Israel halt the operation, saying it was
unacceptable. The European Union's foreign policy coordinator, Javier
Solana, said the raid would not end terrorism but would undermine efforts to
reform the Palestinian Authority and work out a truce.

Arafat has been under Israeli siege before including 34 days in spring when
he was confined in the same office building, as well as a 1982 siege in
Beirut. But he never seemed weaker.

Many Palestinians have been demanding that he share power, the United States
seeks to sideline him and Israel's prime minister reportedly wants to expel
him, held back only by warnings from Israeli security chiefs that such a
step could backfire.

On Saturday, bulldozers dug a deep trench and troops ran coils of barbed
wire around the main office building. The smaller wing of the large L-shaped
structure the only building still standing was heavily damaged.

A massive D-9 bulldozer about the size of a small house belched smoke as it
shoveled debris. Diesel fumes from tank exhaust and dust filled Arafat's
office.

Five explosions rocked the compound Saturday, and aides said there was
concern Arafat's building might collapse.

A picture taken by his personal photographer and released Saturday showed a
grim-faced Arafat wearing thick, black-rimmed glasses, poring over papers at
his desk, with several aides at his side. Beside him was a holstered pistol
with belt, next to a desk calculator, a box of tissues and two bottles of
mineral water.

Those trapped with him said Israeli troops demolished water pipes, the main
kitchen and the pantry, but that there was enough water from rooftop tanks
and stored food to last a few days.

Palestinian officials said Israel's demand for the surrender of wanted men,
including West Bank intelligence chief Tawfik Tirawi, was just a pretext,
and that Sharon's real objective is to humiliate Arafat.

''Sharon is implementing his plan of destroying the Palestinian Authority
and the peace process, harming President Arafat and resuming the
occupation,'' said Palestinian Cabinet Minister Saeb Erekat.

Raanan Gissin, a Sharon adviser, left open the possibility that troops would
stay on even if the wanted men surrender. ''First of all, we want those
people in our hands,'' he said. ''Then we will consider what action, what
further action we will have to take in order to ensure and defend our
citizens.''

Five Israelis and a Scottish seminary student were killed in Thursday's
suicide bombing on a Tel Aviv bus, claimed by the Islamic militant

[CTRL] Protests grow over Arafat siege


-Caveat Lector-

(US practicing racial apartheid by complicity to Israel...?)
(Poke the hornet's nest until you get them to sting you,
then justifiably bomb them...)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2274279.stm

Sunday, 22 September, 2002, 13:28 GMT 14:28 UK

Protests grow over Arafat siege

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38269000/jpg/_38269787_rubble300.jpg
Israel's aim is to make life unbearable for Yasser Arafat

Israel's siege and destruction of Yasser Arafat's headquarters in
Ramallah is causing mounting protests, from both the international
community and the Palestinian population.
Palestinians have poured out into the streets, many in defiance of
military curfew, in support of their leader, while the European Union,
France, Russia and Arab countries have urged an end to the siege.
The army has kept up pressure on Mr Arafat by intermittently cutting
water and power supplies, after tearing down the last remaining building
next to his office overnight.
Mr Arafat is refusing to give in to the Israeli Government's demands
that he surrender 50 suspected militants Israel says are hiding in his
offices.
Popular protests began in the early hours when the army announced on
loudspeakers at the compound that troops were about to blow up Mr
Arafat's office unless the wanted men surrendered.
Israel says it does not intend to harm Mr Arafat, and the army later
made it clear there were no plans to blow up the building.
Just a few kilometres from Mr Arafat's compound, troops fired tear
gas and live rounds to disperse a chanting crowd breaking a curfew. One
protester and a journalist were killed, medical sources said.
Two other people were killed in Tulkarm and the Balata refugee camp
next to Nablus.
Later on Sunday, a teenager was shot dead in Nablus.
There have also been large demonstrations in Gaza, which is still
under Palestinian control, and in Jericho, where several hundred people
marched on a prison holding six men jailed as part of a deal in May to
lift the last siege of Mr Arafat's compound.
The foreign monitors at the prison threatened to leave, saying they
felt endangered by the mob, who were calling for the men's release.
Reports in Israel say the assault on Ramallah is meant to force Mr
Arafat to choose exile rather than suffer the relentless pressure put on
him by the army.
Deputy Defence Minister Weizman Shiri said that Mr Arafat could
leave the country, but would not be allowed to return.
If he decides he wants to get out we'll give him a lift, Mr Shiri
told army radio on Sunday.
Inside the compound, the Palestinian leader is reported to have told
his entourage that he wanted God to grant him the honour of martyrdom
and no one would be handed over to Israel.
Israel initially said there were 19 wanted men in the compound,
including members of the intelligence service and Mr Arafat's personal
bodyguard, but a senior army officer said the figure increased because
the army had not had a complete picture of who was inside.

International reaction

France has condemned the siege on Mr Arafat's compound as unacceptable
and called for it to be halted immediately.
Denmark, the current president of the European Union, said Israel's
actions would neither curb terror nor improve security for its
civilians.
The Egyptian President, Hosni Mubarak, has called on the United
States to intervene immediately; and Jordan said Israel's actions
threatened the stability of the region.
Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit of Turkey - Israel's principal ally in
the region - also said he was extremely upset by an attack on the
legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.
But there has been no strong reaction from Washington, and a BBC
correspondent in Jerusalem says that until that changes, Israel is
unlikely to alter its course.

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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[CTRL] Clinton a War Criminal?


-Caveat Lector-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20020922-25009705.htm


WASHINGTON TIMES--Sept. 22, 2001

September 22, 2002

Is Clinton a war criminal?

Jeffrey T. Kuhner

 ZAGREB, Croatia.

 Former President Bill Clinton faces possible war crimes
charges by the prosecutor's office at the U.N. tribunal in The
Hague for the former Yugoslavia.
 As the media remains riveted by the trial of former Serb
dictator Slobodan Milosevic, an overlooked but far more
consequential case is that of Croatian Gen. Ante Gotovina. The
Gotovina case threatens to destabilize Croatia; it also raises
the possibility Mr. Clinton and several of his other top
administration officials will be indicted by the Balkans war
crimes tribunal.
 The decision last year by the ruling coalition government
in Zagreb to hand Gen. Gotovina over to The Hague tribunal has
sparked a political crisis in this small country. While the
general remains in hiding, the popularity of Socialist Prime
Minister Ivica Racan has plummeted.
 Gen. Gotovina was indicted in June 2001 by the
prosecutor's office at The Hague on charges that he
exercised command responsibility over a 1995 military
operation that resulted in the expulsion of 150,000 ethnic
Serbs from Croatia. Supported by the Clinton administration,
Croatian forces launched a massive, three-day military
offensive â known as Operation Storm â on Aug. 4, 1995, in
which Croatia recovered territories occupied by rebel Serbs
following the country's drive for independence from Yugoslavia
in 1991. Gen. Gotovina is not accused of committing or
ordering war crimes, but simply of being in charge when
alleged atrocities were committed.
 However, by this standard, the Clinton administration is
also guilty. Washington provided valuable military and
technical assistance to Operation Storm. The Clinton foreign
policy team rightly concluded that the only way to tilt the
strategic balance of power in the Balkans against the Serbs
was to arm and unleash the Croatian army.
 Zagreb's lightening military offensive not only restored
Croatia's territorial integrity, but more importantly helped
to achieve the central goal of American foreign policy in the
region: putting an end to Mr. Milosevic's dream of an
ethnically pure Greater Serbia. The operation significantly
advanced U.S. interests in the Balkans, helping to pave the
way for the Dayton Accords that brought peace to neighboring
Bosnia.
 Yet U.S. support and approval for the military offensive
means the indictment against Gen. Gotovina could lead to the
prosecution by tribunal at The Hague of Mr. Clinton and other
administration officials on charges of having command
responsibility for alleged war crimes that were committed
during the operation. The prosecutor's office now is examining
whether to investigate Mr. Clinton and former Ambassador
Richard Holbrooke for their role in Operation Storm. It is
only a matter of time before they are made to appear before
the tribunal.
 The Bush administration has become increasingly concerned
with the implications of the Gotovina case for the United
States. The State Department is now urging the tribunal's
chief prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, to send cases involving
Croatian military officials back to the domestic courts in
Zagreb. But Mrs. Del Ponte has refused to cooperate, insisting
that Gen. Gotovina be arrested and sent to The Hague.
 That would be a mistake. The indictment is deeply flawed
and should be dropped immediately. There is no evidence Gen.
Gotovina acted improperly or oversaw war crimes. Most of the
atrocities committed â the murder of 500 civilians, the
looting of property and the burning of 40,000 homes and barns â
took place after the operation was completed, when the
recovered territories fell under the control of local police.
 Moreover, the Gotovina case establishes an ominous
precedent for U.S. foreign policy. The importance of Operation
Storm was that it served as a model for Operation Enduring
Freedom in Afghanistan. The Croatian military acted as the de
facto ground troops for the United States in its effort to
defeat Mr. Milosevic. A similar approach was taken in the war
in Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance provided the bulk of the
ground forces during the Bush administration's campaign to
topple the Taliban regime from power.
 But if the theory of command responsibility is upheld
in the Gotovina case, then the United States can be made
accountable for the actions of its allies around the world.
There will be nothing preventing the International Criminal
Court from making U.S. officials responsible for isolated
criminal acts that have been committed by Northern Alliance
troops.
 Ultimately, the Gotovina indictment threatens to limit
Washington's ability to project its power around the world. In
fact, the case is emblematic of the dangers inherent in
international tribunals that have little transparency and are
not rooted

[CTRL] [U-S-A] [Iraq] Israel is a Made-in-America project - Saddam Hussein (fwd)

2002-09-22 Thread Party of Citizens

-Caveat Lector-

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [U-S-A] [Iraq] Israel is a Made-in-America project - Saddam
Hussein (fwd)

And this of course is why you must try to murder President Hussein.
Because he KNOWS THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR MADE-IN-AMERICA-FRAUD. Any old mass
murder/war/genocide to distract the world from the moral bankruptcy of
U-S-A and the reality apparent to all that only your filthiest, most
cowardly and lying people get to be Whitehouse and Congressional
preachers.

POC

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Iraq] Israel is a Made-in-America project - Saddam Hussein

The issue is Jacob and Esau his TWIN BROTHER and not Ishmael. PROVE that
these bogus invaders of Palestine are MORE DESCENDED FROM JACOB THAN
ESAU, ie that they have a right of return to the ancestral lands of the
Ancient Israelites. NOBODY HAS THAT PROOF. The State of Israel is a
conspiracy, a fraud against God and man. That is why the liar, murderer
and moral degenerate, Bush must stage a continuing genocide against Iraq
and why he won't enforce scores of UN Resolutions against Israel while
whining on about Iraq's violations. That is why only morally filthy liars
and cowards like the Grovelling Grahams and their ilk among the
tele-evangelists get to be Whitehouse Preachers. U-S-A and its puppet
presidents HATE TRUTH and they hate Jesus Christ who said, I came to tell
the truth.

Saddam knows the truth and that is why Bush-the-Liar must be eliminated.
But all Saddam has to do to win is heed Sun Tsu, To win without fighting
is best. Go with the UN. Even go the extra mile with them despite all the
provocations and filthy lies of the puppet Bush and his lackies.

The truth will set you free in Iraq and Palestine.

POC

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002, szman167 wrote:

 Ismael is the son of a whore, not God chosen.

 --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Staffan E. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Dear POC,

  It goes back quite a long time, and is clearly explained in this
 document: http://jahtruth.co.uk/plan.htm

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--
Plan to Sell a Home?
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/ySSFAA/KlSolB/TM
-~-

U-S-A = Usurers, Sodomites, Abortionists.
The U-S-A Cult is the ruling power over America-the-Good and now seeks to a establish 
One World Government of Evil-Doers via the Afghanistan-Iraq domino effect.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] letters to the editor badly needed - may be heavy for survivors

2002-09-22 Thread Smart News

-Caveat Lector-
Hi !

IMO, it is very important that we defend the existence of ritual abuse in the media.
If at all possible, please send two letters to the people below.

About a month and a half ago, members of the FMSF attempted to try to pressure FVSAI to take two ritual abuse presentations off of their program. The attempt failed and IMO, FVSAI should receive thank you letters from survivors.

The web address with FVSAI's rebuttal letter is at http://www.fvsai.org/FVSAI_rebuttal.htm This address also has contact information for FVSAI

Recently, there was a letter in the San Diego Union Tribune from Mark Sauer attacking the inclusion of these two topics in the conference. We should send as many letters to the Tribune as possible about this. My letter is followed by the article below.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
sent 9/22/02

I was very disappointed to read the one sided article "Abuse or Unfounded Fear?"
By Mark Sauer (9/21/02). The existence of ritual abuse is a fact. There have been many criminal cases and research studies showing that ritual abuse exists, and it should definitely be included as a topic at any conference dealing with child abuse. The Ritual Abuse Task Force of the L.A. County Commission worked on this topic for many years.
In the book, "Cult and Ritual Abuse" - Noblitt and Perskin (Praeger, 1995) "One of the best sources of evaluative research on ritual abuse is the article "Ritual Abuse: A Review of Research" by Kathleen Coulborn Faller (1994)in a survey of 2,709 members of the American Psychological Association, it was found that 30 percent of these professionals had seen cases of ritual or religion-related abuse (Bottoms, Shaver Goodman, 1991). Of those psychologists who have seen cases of ritual abuse, 93 percent believed that the reported harm took place and 93 percent believed that the alleged ritualism occurred" and "Nancy Perry (1992) also conducted a national survey of therapists who work with clients with dissociative disorders and she found that 88 percent of the 1,185 respondents indicated "belief in ritual abuse, involving mind control and programming"
There are also lists of court cases on the internet describing court cases pertaining to ritual abuse at http://www.newsmakingnews.com/karencuriojonesarchive.htm
I hope that in the future the Union Tribune will print unbiased articles about this topic, so these horrible crimes can be stopped.

Neil Brick
http://members.aol.com/smartnews/index2.html
editor of SMART
P O Box 1295
Easthampton, MA 01027

This article from the Union Tribune may be very triggering for survivors.

Abuse or Unfounded Fear?
Either way, talks to delve into ritual child torture
By Mark Sauer STAFF WRITER
September 21, 2002
In the fall of 1993, a jury returned a swift and resounding
not-guilty verdict in the longest, costliest and most bizarre
criminal trial in San Diego history.
The Dale Akiki case featured tales of animal sacrifice
(including giraffes and elephants), blood and water torture
rituals, several murders and various other allegations of physical, sexual and emotional abuse of preschoolers.
When the former volunteer at a Spring Valley church day
care was acquitted after 21/2 years in jail awaiting trial,
jurors said the only crime committed in the case was the
misguided prosecution itself.
Their verdict in the seven-month trial ââ coupled with the
$2 million Akiki got to settle his wrongful-prosecution
lawsuit ââ was widely seen as driving a stake through the
heart of America's ritual abuse witch hunt.
But now the controversial notion of children being
tortured and terrorized by an underground network of
satanists and other ritual abusers is making a comeback in
San Diego.
The occasion is the seventh International Conference on
Family Violence, which will attract 1,500 social workers,
therapists, prosecutors and defense attorneys, doctors,
nurses and police from around the world for a week of
workshops on various kinds of physical, sexual and
emotional abuse.
At least two of the sessions will focus on ritual abuse,
which the conference program describes as, "the
organized, systematic use of children in brutalizing
ceremonial acts."
District Attorney Paul Pfingst expressed grave concerns
that a widely attended and influential conference would
feature workshops on ritual abuse, since he has seen no
evidence that such cases exist. That view is shared by the
FBI, which spent a decade searching in vain for a valid
ritual abuse case.
The conference on abuse is set for next week at the Town
Country Convention Center in Mission Valley. It is
being hosted by the Family Violence Sexual Assault
Institute (FVSAI), a nonprofit training center based at San
Diego's Alliant University.
Robert Geffner, conference director, said ritual abuse is
recognized as valid by "most people in the field" and
defended including the workshops.
The

Re: [CTRL] Protests grow over Arafat siege


-Caveat Lector-

Couldn't that be said of both sides?

Or don't the 2 bus bombings earlier this week count, for some reason?

on 9/22/02 7:20 PM, Jei at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 (US practicing racial apartheid by complicity to Israel...?)
 (Poke the hornet's nest until you get them to sting you,
 then justifiably bomb them...)

--  - --- -- ---
--
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is a force. Like fire, it
is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be
left to irresponsible action.


George Washington


NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Masonic home abuse, Rwandan atrocities, cia on campus, Bush/education

2002-09-22 Thread Smart News

-Caveat Lector-






this may be heavy for survivors


three from L Moss Sharman Masons to decide fate of facility Chris Vaughn 9/21/02 Fort Worth - "The fate of the 103-year-old Masonic Home and School of Texas will be decided today in Waco during a meeting of the top leaders of the state's Masonic lodges. The Grand Lodge of Texas is scheduled to vote on a number of measures, including whether to close part or all of the facility in southeast Fort Worth because of a severe financial crunch. Donations from Masons are down 20 percent, and the home paid $6.9 million three years ago to settle sexual and physical abuse lawsuits, officials said." http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/local/4121714.htm

Masons vote for school to stay open $10.6 million from endowment to help keep FW campus going 09/22/2002 By SELWYN CRAWFORD WACO â "The financially strapped Masonic Home and School of Texas in Fort Worth will remain open, state Masons decided Saturday, overwhelmingly rejecting a proposal to close the century-old school." http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews/stories/092202dnmetnumasons2.b9d.html


The minister of rape - "Rwanda's Pauline Nyiramasuhuko â accused of inciting rape, murder and mutilation â is the first woman on trial in an internation By Peter Landesman "Slaughter, and then worse, came to Butare, a sleepy, sun-bleached Rwandan town, in the spring of 1994. Hutu death squads armed with machetes and nail-studded clubs had deployed throughout the countryside, killing, looting and burning. Roadblocks had been set up to cull fleeing Tutsis." This may be very heavy for survivors.  http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/ArticleType1c=Articlecid=1026145411225call_page=TS_Worldcall_pageid=968332188854call_pagepath=News/World

Columbia University and the U.S. Intelligence Community Excerpted from: North American Congress on Latin America, Who Rules Columbia? - Original 1968 Strike Edition (New York: NACLA, 1970), pages 13-17 of 40 pages. "The very nature of the Cold War struggle against Communism and the drive for empire require extensive non-military resources. The U.S. intelligence community, under the direction of the Central Intelligence Agency, is in charge of enlisting the expertise and the cover of non-governmental organizations." 
http://www.cia-on-campus.org/columbia.edu/columbia.html

http://www.citylimits.org/content/articles/weeklyView.cfm?articlenumber=820
ALL BUT ONE COMPANY LEFT BEHIND 
A few months after giving school superintendents the green light to craft their own federally financed literacy programs, state education officials have gone ahead on their own and hired the companies that will create the curriculum--and a corporation with ties to President Bush is getting a chunk of the contract. By Chris Hawke

Six months after giving public school principals a chance to propose a new literacy program for their schools, education officials in Albany have decided to reward millions of dollars in contracts to a company with close ties to the Bush administration.
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Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money

2002-09-22 Thread flw


-Caveat Lector-

 Even if everything you say is true it does not make it Ok for the Saudi's
to
 pay for the killing of innocent children in school buses, for the killing
of
 innocent teenagers at a youth night in a disco, for innocent shoppers in
a
 mall, commuters on a bus, or diners in a pizzeria. Israeli murder cannot
 justify Palestinian murder. If it does, then Palestinian murder justifies
 Israeli murder, and the cycle of violence cannot end.

If it is wrong for Saudis to donate to families of human bombs, then
it is certainly wrong for Americans to provide Israel with jets and
bombs to be used to bomb civilians in Palestine.

 Let me ask you - seriously - where can the Jews have a homeland? Do their
 nationalist desires not deserve the same consideration as the
Palestinians?
 (for the sake of simplicity we will leave the Palestinian state of Jordan
 out of it for the moment)

What Jews are you talking about that need this homeland? Judism is
a religion. I know that there are Jewish Americans, French Jews, Mexican
Jews, etc. etc. In any event, the only Jews that need a homeland
are the Jews that presently live in Israel. Whether or not Israel should
have been created in 1948 is a moot issue. It exists. Israelis (both
Jewish and Moslems) have a right to live in peace within the pre 1967
borders. Palestinians have the right to live in unmolested in the occupied
terroritories - without being occupied.
flw

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] Saudis Pay out money