Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/2013 04:46, Manu wrote: Missed the action... Well it's clear this is not a popular proposal. And even to me personally, it's certainly not of critical importance. If there was a single thing I'd like to see *DONE* in D, it would be temporary/r-value-ref args, without question (really, really annoying to work around). For the record, I tend to agree with the arguments of many in the 'against' camp *from a purist point of view*, but the problem remains, and the reason I raised it; this has demonstrated to me and my colleagues on a number of occasions that it is a consistent productivity hindrance. I guess a significant reason my experience seems to differ from many(/most) on this forum, is that they're not in the business of banging out quick throw-away commercial code. The practical reality in my experience in the games industry is this: - Some (perhaps small) percentage of code is tech/foundation code. It is carefully authored, but still typically documented only of the class outline in the header file isn't already self-explanatory (I'm a big fan of self-documenting code). It is to be re-used. - Much (perhaps most) code is rudimentary logic and glue code, or 'game code' as we call it. This tends to be code that is written by more inexperienced programmers and written to tight schedules. It is almost never documented (apart from the occasional inline comments), rarely conforms to some spec (unless it's implementing from foundational interface), and usually exists to serve only the life of this one very specific project, ie, throw-away. It is also almost always logic-intensive code, riddled with switch/if/else constructs that take an awful lot of vertical space, which further magnifies the problem of inline function definitions breaking up the readability of the class outline. Now further, from an absolutely practical point of view, the time that someone unfamiliar with this code has to deal with it in the first place is very likely at 11pm the night before the publisher is demanding a build so they can show it to a bunch of arseholes in fancy suits who will decide if they're going to pay us or not. In C++ there is a very useful tool for unfamiliar programmers to get a good brief overview of the code before they go hacking at it, that is the class outline. We've lost that. And I have demonstrably missed it. People make claims like write better code, split it up better, document your code better, use the IDE folding, blah blah, but it's simply not the practical reality. The budget and schedule does not typically allow for careful consideration, design, and documentation of such throw away code which glues the project together. The code is what it is, and whether it's written in C++, or D, or lua, it's probably not going to change the nature of this huge volume of crappy code. Code folding doesn't work in foreign editors, communication tools, diff windows; code reviews become more time consuming to approve, and I don't know many programmers that like/use it regardless, even if it may help in some occasions. I think it's bat-shit-crazy to rely on a tool to simply make code readable and easy to understand for a start. I also personally feel code folding alienates me from the code I'm writing. As an author, you quickly gain a feel for the layout of your source file; the flow and shape of the code across the file is kinda picturesque. For me personally, code folding ruins that relationship with my code, and I don't like it. It makes it harder for me to sweep through my file and quickly locate the points of interest that I'm working through. So if I'm not using it in my own code, but I'm required to use it to understand someone else's code... there's a bit of a conflict of interest there. If I'm one of very few voices in favour of class outlines, I'm going to suggest letting this argument sleep until other more serious issues are resolved which people have been waiting on for ages. I certainly want r-values - ref args to work much more. Keep in mind, I raised this debate as a practical account of last weekend, among a bunch of other issues which were certainly more significant than this one, but this seemed to capture the most attention. It's not the first time it's come up and it'll be back again I'm sure :) I support this DIP, obviously, but I'd suggest perhaps a conservative restriction that definitions should only be allowed to appear within the same module as the declaration. This would seem to simplify things like mangling issues and access rights. In my own use case, I have no reason to spread definitions across files. I just want to see class outlines clearly summarised at the top of the file. This saves time, and time is money. On 8 September 2013 03:00, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com mailto:newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 23:45, Ettienne Gilbert wrote:
Ahh, ok. I see where you are coming from - you were evaluating the implications
of what Jacob Carlborg proposed if mixed in with Walter's DIP47, right?
The code that Jacob proposed is currently legit D code and that isn't going to
change -- and if that solution works for you (or other people), great. However,
I don't think it completely address the requirements the DIP is attempting to
meet. In my previous email I was simply trying to show that implementing new
functionality to allow class functions to be defined outside the class
declaration, wouldn't be incompatible with writing code like Jacob's (although I
don't see why anyone would mix the approaches in this way).
In terms of where I'm coming from, it's more in line with Dicebot -- I think
both of us have been focused on the simultaneous usefulness and necessity of
being able to check declaration against definition for class member functions
that are declared and defined separately.
If you mix the 2 I agree with you for the most part. But the real question for
me (and I suspect Jacob) is this:
Is this...
[ ... snip code ...]
...really so much better than this?
[ ... snip again ...]
Granted, this sacrifices some flexibility from DIP47. But these are of such
dubious quality/use/potential pitfalls (as discussed in this thread), that I
hardly think DIP47 is worth implementing as a result. Especially since, what we
currently have (as shown by Carl,) already gives you arguably 90%+ (IMHO) of
Manu's request for (I quote) You don't need to see the function bodies in the
class definition, you want to quickly see what a class has and does. Does it
really matter that the function definitions are also present inside the class
definition, as long as you can also see what a class has and does in the
declarations list at the top?
The point is about being able to check that your declaration list has a
one-to-one match with your definition list. If you just decide to place
declarations at the top of the class definition, and definitions lower down, you
run the risk of accidentally missing one of the defined functions out of the
declaration list:
class Foo
{
// Declarations
void foo();
void bar();
// Definitions
void foo() { ... }
void bar() { ... }
void goo() { ... } // Whoops! This is part of the class API but
// we forgot to include it in our declaration
// list ...
}
But Andrej Mitrovic has suggested a means to implement those kind of
introspective checks at compile-time, so maybe it's not as urgent as I first
thought. (My one caveat is that I think solutions based on programmer virtue,
like remembering to insert a line: mixin VerifyDeclarations; into a class, are
generally less nice than solutions where the compiler does your checking for you
without you having to ask.)
Of course fixing the current issues with .di generation is important as a
separate issue.
Yes, absolutely.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 21:35, H. S. Teoh wrote: Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) Maybe you'll think I'm being too picky, but I don't think that generated files of any kind (whether .di or Ddoc) really help with the situations Manu was describing. If you want to be able to look at the latest diff and see at a glance how the class API has changed, a generated file doesn't help (unless you store that generated file in the VCS, but I've always understood that to be bad practice).
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 10/09/13 04:09, Michel Fortin wrote: Is the D module system file-granular or module-granular? I always thought the later. Putting the implementation of functions in the .d file while the declarations are in the corresponding .di does not change things much: it's still one module, but it's one module split over two files. It also helps solve another problem: the problem where you're shipping a library and want to force some things to not be inlined. This is needed if the library is to be swapped for another version without having to recompile all client code. You can do this currently by hand-crafting .di files, but it's a pain to keep it manually in sync with the .d file. Is it possible to manually craft some parts of the .di file, while being able to rely on the compiler to automatically add any module contents that aren't manually declared? If so it might be the best solution to everyone's concerns.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-09 23:45, Ettienne Gilbert wrote: Ahh, ok. I see where you are coming from - you were evaluating the implications of what Jacob Carlborg proposed if mixed in with Walter's DIP47, right? My points though was specifically on the implications of Jacob Carlborg's proposal in isolation i.e. as an acceptable alternative to DIP47. And, AFAICS, Jacob posed the question to Manu this way as well (I think - but maybe Jacob can confirm/deny). Yes, my suggestion would be an alternative to DIP47. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-09 22:01, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
You could use compile-time introspection where the API would look like:
class C
{
void foo();
void foo() { }
void bar() { } // missing declaration
mixin VerifyDeclarations;
}
And this would statically assert if there's a missing declaration for
a definition. I think this might even be doable with the current
introspection features, although I'm not sure whether we have a way to
determine if something is a declaration or a definition. Certainly
such a trait could easily be added to the compiler.
A mixin should not be necessary. RTInfo can be used for that:
https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/druntime/blob/master/src/object.di#L575
The compiler will instantiate RTInfo once for each user defined type.
The only downside is that you need to modify druntime.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-10 08:49, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: (My one caveat is that I think solutions based on programmer virtue, like remembering to insert a line: mixin VerifyDeclarations; into a class, are generally less nice than solutions where the compiler does your checking for you without you having to ask.) That shouldn't be necessary, see my reply to Andrej: http://forum.dlang.org/thread/l0fm2o$2uat$1...@digitalmars.com?page=14#post-l0mjh4:2418bp:241:40digitalmars.com -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 10/09/13 09:59, Jacob Carlborg wrote: A mixin should not be necessary. RTInfo can be used for that: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/druntime/blob/master/src/object.di#L575 The compiler will instantiate RTInfo once for each user defined type. The only downside is that you need to modify druntime. Can you explain a bit more about how that works? As long as it can provide a guarantee that everything declared has a definition, and everything defined has a declaration -- and that they match! -- then I think this is probably the solution required. What I mean is -- it needs to ensure that the issue identified in a couple of my earlier posts will be flagged and prevented: http://forum.dlang.org/post/mailman.1104.1378795749.1719.digitalmar...@puremagic.com However, I'm suspicious of anything that would require the programmer to be virtuous and manually ensure that those checks take place, rather than the checks simply being a natural part of the compilation process.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/10/2013 06:59 AM, Walter Bright wrote: The trouble with eschewing private access for member functions is then arguably the member functions do not belong in the class at all - they should be UFCS functions. Functions are placed inside classes for convenient scoping and vtables.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-10 10:49, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
Can you explain a bit more about how that works?
The object module, part of druntime defines a template with the name
RTInfo. That template will be instantiated with each user defined type.
Currently RTInfo doesn't do anything:
template RTInfo(T)
{
enum RTInfo = cast(void*)0x12345678;
}
https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/druntime/blob/master/src/object.di#L575
If you replace that template with something like:
template RTInfo(T)
{
enum RTInfo = verifyDeclarations!(T);
}
verifyDeclarations would look something like this, in pseudo code:
void* verifyDeclarations (T) ()
{
static if (is(T == class))
{
foreach (member ; methods!(T))
{
static if (!hasDefinition!(member))
static assert (false, The member '
fullyQualifiedName!(T) ~ . ~ member.stringof ~ ' doesn't have a
definition);
}
}
return null;
}
As long as it can provide a guarantee that everything declared has a
definition, and everything defined has a declaration -- and that they
match! -- then I think this is probably the solution required.
What I mean is -- it needs to ensure that the issue identified in a
couple of my earlier posts will be flagged and prevented:
http://forum.dlang.org/post/mailman.1104.1378795749.1719.digitalmar...@puremagic.com
However, I'm suspicious of anything that would require the programmer to
be virtuous and manually ensure that those checks take place, rather
than the checks simply being a natural part of the compilation process.
The idea is then you build a tool that compiles all your files which
uses druntime with the above implementation of RTInfo.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Main issue of .di files that make them useless for anything but providing declarations for blobs is that there is absolutely zero compiler control of .d and .di relation. Fixing this either implies providing good control of how .di is generated via compiler flags (and prohibiting manual modifications) or implementing good part of DIP47 restricted to .di/.d combo (all the signature verifications). Also it does not seem defined in spec how lookup should happen if both .d and .di are present, and, for example, .di has only declaration. Will compiler check .d for possible inlining if it is present? I think that .di should always contain only declarations and be _always_ auto-generated by compiler with strict 1-to-1 matching signatures. Then .d are also queried if implementation is needed/considered - but those are not mandatory (aside from templates). Blob bindings distributed may then simply have a stripped down version of .d file (similar to what is now generated by dmd -H). Key point here is that .di needs _always_ to be there, with hard guarantees that it is in sync with actual code. Add even one more extra step of getting those and it becomes considerably less convenient than C++-like overview.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 10/09/13 14:12, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
verifyDeclarations would look something like this, in pseudo code:
void* verifyDeclarations (T) ()
{
static if (is(T == class))
{
foreach (member ; methods!(T))
{
static if (!hasDefinition!(member))
static assert (false, The member ' fullyQualifiedName!(T) ~
. ~ member.stringof ~ ' doesn't have a definition);
}
}
return null;
}
But the problem that I identified wasn't the possibility of members that are
declared but not defined. It was the possibility of members that are defined
but not included in the top-of-the-class list of separate declarations. The
whole point is that both the author and the recipient of the code should be able
to verify at compile-time that the list of declarations is an accurate summary
of the class.
I imagine you could define a verifySeparateDeclarations that would indeed
enforce that (for every declaration a definition, and for every definition a
separate declaration) but that would have its own issues.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/10/13, Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote: A mixin should not be necessary. RTInfo can be used for that: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/druntime/blob/master/src/object.di#L575 The mixin was demonstrated for convenience so you don't have to manually type in the class name (or use typeof(this)).
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/10/13, Dicebot pub...@dicebot.lv wrote: Main issue of .di files that make them useless for anything but providing declarations for blobs is that there is absolutely zero compiler control of .d and .di relation. Yeah, I think we could attempt to provide an alternative to DIP47 by adding a compiler flag that verifies .d implementations match .di declarations. We don't even have to make the .d files explicitly import the .di files like Andrei proposed.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Tuesday, 10 September 2013 at 13:32:14 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 9/10/13, Dicebot pub...@dicebot.lv wrote: Main issue of .di files that make them useless for anything but providing declarations for blobs is that there is absolutely zero compiler control of .d and .di relation. Yeah, I think we could attempt to provide an alternative to DIP47 by adding a compiler flag that verifies .d implementations match .di declarations. We don't even have to make the .d files explicitly import the .di files like Andrei proposed. Please, no compiler flags. It should be default behavior. We are speaking about fundamental binary-level application sanity here.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Walter Bright: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 I was away and very busy, I have read only part of the answers in this thread. I don't like this DIP. If this DIP passes I am probably not going to use this feature in my code. Go and Python show that it's good to minimize the number of trivially different ways to write code in a language. This DIP does the opposite. or even in another module. This is not a good idea. If you rely on tools to make the code _readable_, In my opinion this DIP makes the code less readable, and makes the code less DRY. 3. Parameter names need not match. This seems bad. What's the rationale for this? (One perhaps acceptable solution is to put no parameter names in the signature inside the class). Generally I suggest to fix the biggest module system bugs before modifying the design of related features, like the ones discussed in DIP47. - Daniel Murphy: Let's solve a documentation issue with documentation improvements. This seems one better solution to the problem. But I also suggest people here to read and discuss about the post written by Andrei that touches deeper issues. The module system is currently significantly buggy, and it needs a principled design before trying to add DIP47. - Manu: People make claims like write better code, split it up better, document your code better, The D compiler could be modified a bit to generate a bare bones documentation even with not even a comment written in the code. Bye, bearophile
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Tuesday, 10 September 2013 at 13:49:21 UTC, bearophile wrote: Walter Bright: clip 3. Parameter names need not match. This seems bad. What's the rationale for this? (One perhaps acceptable solution is to put no parameter names in the signature inside the class). I am sure there is a good reason for having no parameter names in a declaration, but to me this doesn't make much sense. If people want separate declaration/definition so that they can get an idea of what a class does, then for non-trivial functions if the variable names are omitted then your more or less have to look at the definition anyway. I must admit whenever I come across such declarations in code I am reading I always find them kind of irritating. Apart from functions with say variadic parameter lists, is this really all that useful? clip The D compiler could be modified a bit to generate a bare bones documentation even with not even a comment written in the code. Bye, bearophile I agree on this last point.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Craig Dillabaugh: Apart from functions with say variadic parameter lists, is this really all that useful? There are rare situations when you need to add a certain argument to the function signature, but you don't need to use that argument inside the method/function. This happens for example because of code evolution. In such cases not giving a name to the argument is good, you avoid introducing a useless and unused variable name, making the code simpler, safer, and more clear. Bye, bearophile
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Tuesday, 10 September 2013 at 14:15:19 UTC, bearophile wrote: Craig Dillabaugh: Apart from functions with say variadic parameter lists, is this really all that useful? There are rare situations when you need to add a certain argument to the function signature, but you don't need to use that argument inside the method/function. This happens for example because of code evolution. In such cases not giving a name to the argument is good, you avoid introducing a useless and unused variable name, making the code simpler, safer, and more clear. Bye, bearophile It is never the case in the declaration though. You always want parameter names there, to reference them in DDOC comment at the very least.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Tuesday, 10 September 2013 at 14:15:19 UTC, bearophile wrote: Craig Dillabaugh: Apart from functions with say variadic parameter lists, is this really all that useful? There are rare situations when you need to add a certain argument to the function signature, but you don't need to use that argument inside the method/function. This happens for example because of code evolution. In such cases not giving a name to the argument is good, you avoid introducing a useless and unused variable name, making the code simpler, safer, and more clear. Bye, bearophile I think using calling the variable 'dummy' would likely do the trick in those instances, but this makes sense.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 16:29, Dicebot wrote: On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 14:22:15 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Then it simply becomes a question of deciding if the manual labour of writing separate outlines and definitions is worth it. I guess this is probably somewhere where a tool really _can_ be useful, to ensure that the definitions and the outline stay in sync. Writing D code in this way should probably be disapproved of in the D style guidelines, but with the proviso that it's there for the circumstances where it really is useful. Very well spoken, this is exactly how I see it. Thank you! :-)
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 18:23:21 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: On 09/09/13 20:05, Jesse Phillips wrote: I think DDOC should be improved to handle this scenario. Being able to generate docs with undocumented members would be great for internal development of the module. I realize that doesn't address all your problems, but I think that is the correct direction. Better DDoc is always going to be nice, but come on -- that doesn't address the issue of looking at code in a diff or a copy-paste via chat software, and in the scenarios Manu has described, no one's going to have time to write documentation comments. OK, you could have a DDoc setting to at least _list_ all elements of class interfaces etc., even if there's no doc comment, but that doesn't address the other factors. I hope you realize you've restated what I said? Include undocumented members, won't address all problems. There can definitely be value for diff; if you're objective is to find modifications to public API. I don't want to have a class pasted in a chat window, with or without function definitions (Unavoidable I know). If I need to do anything complicated with that information, into a text editor it goes (and on linux this would be in /tmp and easy to compile docs for; Windows, I just hope I'm not there).
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Manu has pointed to some issue behind the obvious issue that will come up again and again unless it's settled once and for all. Let's call it To please everyone somewhat (and never really enough) - vs - to stick to a clear and well founded concept. My personal view is that we should make D a mixed pickles with lots of but C++ has that and then some more gadgets thrown in for good measure. The point that triggered me was quick and dirty throw away code. Frankly, I don't care batshit about that. Don't get me wrong, Manus desire is doubtlessly valid and I wish him the best of luck to achieve maximum happyness. But I also see that comfort for throw away code has a strong tendency to run counter reliability. There's a gazillion C++ compilers, pretty printers, analysers and other tools out there. And C++ has proven to be useful as a throw away code language - just look at mountains of throw away code out there (they won't call it that, of course). And there is C#, $Basic, Perl (a perfect language to create trobletickets - or to not even care to), etc, etc. The issue is not to please crowd A or crowd B. The issue is to make up ones mind and to establish a clear definition of what D is meant to be - and than to bloody stick to it. D had reliability and safety written in quite big letters in it's PR. It's a *major* reason for (sure enough not only) me to be here. Comfort and some luxury is important, too, when you make your living using a tool, sure. But that's no contradiction. One can have both. If I wanted to play a mixture of hide and seek and lottery I'd use C++ in the first place (and would have tools thrown at me). In case I missed it, could someone kindly point me to a more or less binding priorities list of what D is meant to be and in what order of priorities. Maybe it's my fault and I just didn't see that list. But in case #1 on the list was to please everyone and then glue some more gadgets to it I wouldn't be here. Thanks -R
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Correction (3rd paragraph) My personal view is that we should *not* make D a mixed pickles with lots of but C++ has that and then some more gadgets thrown in for good measure. Sorry -R
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 04:00:39 UTC, Manu wrote: On 9 September 2013 05:46, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.comwrote: On 9/8/13, Jesse Phillips jesse.k.phillip...@gmail.com wrote: I realize that we want to make it as painless as possible for Remedy to switch from C++ to D (along with the rest of the game developers). FWIW I don't think this has anything to do with Remedy (afaik Manu doesn't work there anymore). Indeed. These opinions are my own, and I raised it on the merit of our experience last weekend in a 48hour game-dev-jam with a few former colleagues (including one who still works at Remedy). This discussion has come up at remedy in the past, but I don't think this is of particular significance to the remedy workflow; the modules were small enough to not cause issues, at least not as I left it. I believe the scenarios I describe are going to be very typical though, at least in the game-dev context, particularly when larger volumes of D code emerge. I've demonstrated this across 2 separate 48 hour game-jam's now, which simulate the environment of a commercial crunch period quite faithfully. Game developers embracing Erlang, C#, Java and ActionScript don't seem to have issues with that, as far as I can tell.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 04:00:39 UTC, Manu wrote: Indeed. These opinions are my own, and I raised it on the merit of our experience last weekend in a 48hour game-dev-jam with a few former colleagues (including one who still works at Remedy). This discussion has come up at remedy in the past, but I don't think this is of particular significance to the remedy workflow; the modules were small enough to not cause issues, at least not as I left it. I believe the scenarios I describe are going to be very typical though, at least in the game-dev context, particularly when larger volumes of D code emerge. I've demonstrated this across 2 separate 48 hour game-jam's now, which simulate the environment of a commercial crunch period quite faithfully. I don't believe that typical. We are working with some very big modules, and we have _no_ problems at all regarding that aspect. I think that this is a swift for the discussion: discussing about an issue that it is present _today_ in a commercial user of the product, or a discussion about an a _potential_ problem. The worst part of all this mess it is that the proposal ditches one of the *strong* selling point of D: no code duplication, use documentation if you want an overview. I also strongly disagree that this way of coding is not typical: here at work we are using it without problems with D, and, again, DDocs are the right way. I would also add that also here we have a lot of time pressures for the releases... as in every commercial software company I know of... ;-P - Paolo Invernizzi
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-09 05:46, Manu wrote:
Missed the action...
Well it's clear this is not a popular proposal.
And even to me personally, it's certainly not of critical importance. If
there was a single thing I'd like to see *DONE* in D, it would be
temporary/r-value-ref args, without question (really, really annoying
to work around).
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-07 19:00, Walter Bright wrote:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration
of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the
definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
What's wrong with the code below, that works today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
writeln(Foo.foo);
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 07:00:23 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
On 2013-09-09 05:46, Manu wrote:
Missed the action...
Well it's clear this is not a popular proposal.
And even to me personally, it's certainly not of critical
importance. If
there was a single thing I'd like to see *DONE* in D, it would
be
temporary/r-value-ref args, without question (really, really
annoying
to work around).
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working
today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
This is super useful to generate boilerplate from compile time
reflection !
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 17:00:08 UTC, Walter Bright
wrote:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the
declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and
placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or
even in another module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
---
unit Unit1;
{$mode objfpc}{$H+}
interface
uses
Classes, SysUtils, FileUtil, Forms, Controls, Graphics,
Dialogs, StdCtrls;
type
{ TForm1 }
TForm1 = class(TForm)
Button1: TButton;
Memo1: TMemo;
procedure Button1Click(Sender: TObject);
private
{ private declarations }
public
{ public declarations }
procedure ChangeTitle(x:string);
procedure ChangeOtherTitle(x: string);
end;
var
Form1: TForm1;
implementation
{$R *.lfm}
{ TForm1 }
procedure TForm1.Button1Click(Sender: TObject);
begin
ChangeTitle('test');
end;
procedure TForm1.ChangeTitle(x: string);
begin
Memo1.Lines.Add(x);
end;
procedure TForm1.ChangeOtherTitle(x: string);
begin
Memo1.Lines.Add(x);
end;
end.
Here is how it looks like in Lazarus.
In the class definition you type the declaration.
public
{ public declarations }
procedure ChangeTitle(x:string);
Then you press control shift c this will create the empty
implementation.
Use control shift up to cycle between the interface section and
the implementation section.
There are two keywords interface and implementation to
separate the two sections.
Honestly. There is not much typing going on.
If you go want to go the the next procedure in the implementation
section it is faster to go control shift up back to the
interface section. And then go to the next method and go back
control shift up to the implentation section than to press the
arrow down button until you are at the next method.
Lazarus does not accept changes in the name of the parameter.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 04:47:04 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Saturday, September 07, 2013 10:00:05 Walter Bright wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 I confess that I really don't like this idea. I think that the separation of declarations and definitions is a serious downside of C++ and that it negatively impacts code maintenence. And from the recent discussion on this, it's clear that quite a few people agree with me. However, at the same time, there are some folks (like Manu) who really prefer to separate the declaration and definitions so that they can just see the signatures for an entire class' functions at once without seeing any definitions. Personally, I don't think that that's a big deal and that it's far better to just use generated documentation for that, but clearly there's not a consensus on that. / snip - Jonathan M Davis I completely agree with Jonathan! This will only produce more code which will lead to more bugs and more maintenance.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 00:43:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: Therefore, the *real* solution to this problem is to fix the compiler's .di output to give a proper overview of the class *automatically*, and nicely pretty-printed. Yes, that should be superior approach in general though exact usability is very detail-specific - currently relation between .di and .d and not really well-defined and pulling this off will requires its own DIP at the very least. For example, it is not entirely clear to me, what should happen if there are both .di and .d files in the file system at the same time and they have minor difference (remember, it is perfectly legal to tweak .di manually). It is likely, that improving .di tool chain will require similar signature matching verification anyway. Also I am wondering how to differ purely auto-generated .di files (should be updated completely upon build) and ones with manual changes (should be only verified). It is all about small details.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9 September 2013 18:08, deadalnix deadal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 07:00:23 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
On 2013-09-09 05:46, Manu wrote:
Missed the action...
Well it's clear this is not a popular proposal.
And even to me personally, it's certainly not of critical importance. If
there was a single thing I'd like to see *DONE* in D, it would be
temporary/r-value-ref args, without question (really, really annoying
to work around).
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
This is super useful to generate boilerplate from compile time reflection !
Which is what I requested it for, and use it very extensively.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 04:18:29 UTC, deadalnix wrote: For that second, it has been discussed in the thread to improve the di behavior to fit that role. Do think this is a viable approach, and that your team of happy devs would have benefited from that ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem of using manually-written .di files to separate out class declaration and definition, that you consequently also have to manually include all the declarations of all the other module content?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote in message
news:l0jrm7$3199$1...@digitalmars.com...
On 2013-09-09 05:46, Manu wrote:
Missed the action...
Well it's clear this is not a popular proposal.
And even to me personally, it's certainly not of critical importance. If
there was a single thing I'd like to see *DONE* in D, it would be
temporary/r-value-ref args, without question (really, really annoying
to work around).
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Whoa, I didn't think of applying that to member functions. This seems like
the answer. Put your variables and function prototypes at the top of your
class. Done.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 12:28:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 00:43:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: Therefore, the *real* solution to this problem is to fix the compiler's .di output to give a proper overview of the class *automatically*, and nicely pretty-printed. Yes, that should be superior approach in general though exact usability is very detail-specific - currently relation between .di and .d and not really well-defined and pulling this off will requires its own DIP at the very least. For example, it is not entirely clear to me, what should happen if there are both .di and .d files in the file system at the same time and they have minor difference (remember, it is perfectly legal to tweak .di manually). It is likely, that improving .di tool chain will require similar signature matching verification anyway. Also I am wondering how to differ purely auto-generated .di files (should be updated completely upon build) and ones with manual changes (should be only verified). It is all about small details. In languages like Modula-2, it is a compile error if there are differences. So I would say D compilers should follow the same behavior, unless it is requested to generate .di files automatically, which will then overwrite the corresponding .di files.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 15:12, Daniel Murphy wrote:
Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote in message
news:l0jrm7$3199$1...@digitalmars.com...
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Whoa, I didn't think of applying that to member functions. This seems like
the answer. Put your variables and function prototypes at the top of your
class. Done.
Problem -- what about:
class Foo
{
// Declarations
void foo();
int bar(double n);
// Definitions
void foo() { }
int bar(double n) { }
// Whoops! Forgot to include this one in the
// declarations list, but it's still accepted
// as part of the class
void goo() { ... }
}
A well-defined rule for separating out declarations and definitions would check
for that and throw a compile error.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 05:46, Manu wrote: For the record, I tend to agree with the arguments of many in the 'against' camp *from a purist point of view*, but the problem remains, and the reason I raised it; this has demonstrated to me and my colleagues on a number of occasions that it is a consistent productivity hindrance. For what it's worth, I think this kind of baptism-by-fire practical experience is very valuable, and that it's worth considering carefully even if the final decision is not to implement the requested feature. Question: do you have any access to information about similar short-deadline programming activity using other languages (Java, C# ...) that also forbid the separation of declaration and definition, and how devs using those languages cope with that? It might offer an alternative solution that no one here has thought of. I support this DIP, obviously, but I'd suggest perhaps a conservative restriction that definitions should only be allowed to appear within the same module as the declaration. This would seem to simplify things like mangling issues and access rights. In my own use case, I have no reason to spread definitions across files. I just want to see class outlines clearly summarised at the top of the file. This saves time, and time is money. I think the conservative approach is probably correct -- the class outline and the function definitions should have to be in the same module, and the outline and definitions should match precisely. Any mismatch (including in variable names)? Compile error. A function in the outline that isn't implemented? Compile error. A function implemented that isn't in the outline? Compile error. That should greatly reduce the possibility of error caused by code duplication. Then it simply becomes a question of deciding if the manual labour of writing separate outlines and definitions is worth it. I guess this is probably somewhere where a tool really _can_ be useful, to ensure that the definitions and the outline stay in sync. Writing D code in this way should probably be disapproved of in the D style guidelines, but with the proviso that it's there for the circumstances where it really is useful.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 14:22:15 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Then it simply becomes a question of deciding if the manual labour of writing separate outlines and definitions is worth it. I guess this is probably somewhere where a tool really _can_ be useful, to ensure that the definitions and the outline stay in sync. Writing D code in this way should probably be disapproved of in the D style guidelines, but with the proviso that it's there for the circumstances where it really is useful. Very well spoken, this is exactly how I see it.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-09 14:36, Manu wrote: Which is what I requested it for, and use it very extensively. Doesn't this already solve what this DIP47 is trying to solve? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 03:26:23PM +0200, PauloPinto wrote:
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 12:28:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 00:43:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Therefore, the *real* solution to this problem is to fix the
compiler's .di output to give a proper overview of the class
*automatically*, and nicely pretty-printed.
Yes, that should be superior approach in general though exact
usability is very detail-specific - currently relation between .di
and .d and not really well-defined and pulling this off will
requires its own DIP at the very least.
For example, it is not entirely clear to me, what should happen if
there are both .di and .d files in the file system at the same
time and they have minor difference (remember, it is perfectly
legal to tweak .di manually).
I'd propose to make it such that you *don't* have to tweak the .di
manually. Maybe the use of UDAs could help get rid of the need to edit
.di by hand, by instructing the compiler what kind of output is desired.
Anything that requires hand-tweaking is unreliable and prone to errors
and careless bugs. The best way is to have .di completely automated.
It is likely, that improving .di
tool chain will require similar signature matching verification
anyway. Also I am wondering how to differ purely auto-generated .di
files (should be updated completely upon build) and ones with
manual changes (should be only verified).
It is all about small details.
In languages like Modula-2, it is a compile error if there are
differences.
So I would say D compilers should follow the same behavior, unless
it is requested to generate .di files automatically, which will then
overwrite the corresponding .di files.
I think it is a bug for the .di and .d to have mismatches. For example,
I don't see how the following code could be correct:
---module.di---
int func(int x) pure;
---module.d---
int global;
int func(int x) { return global; }
Any such mismatch should be considered a bug.
In fact, the current lax enforcement of matching makes it possible for
something to be declared pure @safe nothrow in .di, but impure @system
throwing in .d. I think there has been a few bugs like this in druntime
that got fixed.
T
--
Microsoft is to operating systems security ... what McDonalds is to gourmet
cooking.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 16:34, Jacob Carlborg wrote: Doesn't this already solve what this DIP47 is trying to solve? See the objection given in my reply to Daniel Murphy.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Am 09.09.2013 02:03, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:
On 9/8/13 5:33 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
On 9/8/13, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca wrote:
So I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its
corresponding
.di file.
This is actually what Andrei proposed as well.
I have to say I was a lot more in favor of the proposal before this thread.
The problem as I see it has two facets:
1. Code duplication
2. Modularity and logistics
Regarding (1), we currently force duplication of the entire class
layout. My understanding is that this is the way it's done:
// file acme.di
class A {
int x;
double y;
void fun();
}
// file acme.d
// cannot import acme.di
class A {
int x;
double y;
void fun() { ... }
}
The fact that acme.d cannot import acme.di is an unforced error of
embarrassing proportions and consequence. That should be fixed yesterday
no matter how we proceed otherwise.
The problem with acme.d not having access to acme.di is that any error
in duplicating the layout of A (e.g. swapping x and y or adding some
other members etc) will have undefined behavior, and there is no
reasonable way for the compiler to check against that.
Assuming that bug is fixed, the problem of duplication remains - all
state of the class must be duplicated.
(I also suspect constructors might need to be white-boxed (i.e.
available in the .di) for raw/cooked typechecking, but I'm not sure.)
If we go with DIP47, the duplication of state goes away. However we have
a distinct problem - modularity, which segues into (2).
Allowing out-of-module implementations of individual methods poses
additional modularity problems. Consider:
// file acme.di
class A {
int x;
double y;
void fun();
}
private int a;
private void gun();
// file acme.d
// assume we solve the import problem
import acme;
void A.fun() { gun(); a = 42; }
If A.fun() were defined inside acme.di, it would have access to gun()
and a. Defining it outside asks the question - do we allow such access,
or not?
Intuitively the body of a method should not be all too sensitive to
where it's placed, so that argues in favor of visibility.
D's module system has always favored a file-granular approach, e.g.
private stuff is module-private. This notion of spilling private access
outside the file into methods defined in various other files works
against that nice tenet.
So it looks there's no obvious and obviously good solution. Probably the
first one is more sensible.
Andrei
The approach should be like in Modula-2 family, only public stuff is
allowed in .di files.
--
Paulo
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Am 09.09.2013 16:36, schrieb H. S. Teoh:
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 03:26:23PM +0200, PauloPinto wrote:
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 12:28:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 00:43:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Therefore, the *real* solution to this problem is to fix the
compiler's .di output to give a proper overview of the class
*automatically*, and nicely pretty-printed.
Yes, that should be superior approach in general though exact
usability is very detail-specific - currently relation between .di
and .d and not really well-defined and pulling this off will
requires its own DIP at the very least.
For example, it is not entirely clear to me, what should happen if
there are both .di and .d files in the file system at the same
time and they have minor difference (remember, it is perfectly
legal to tweak .di manually).
I'd propose to make it such that you *don't* have to tweak the .di
manually. Maybe the use of UDAs could help get rid of the need to edit
.di by hand, by instructing the compiler what kind of output is desired.
Anything that requires hand-tweaking is unreliable and prone to errors
and careless bugs. The best way is to have .di completely automated.
It is likely, that improving .di
tool chain will require similar signature matching verification
anyway. Also I am wondering how to differ purely auto-generated .di
files (should be updated completely upon build) and ones with
manual changes (should be only verified).
It is all about small details.
In languages like Modula-2, it is a compile error if there are
differences.
So I would say D compilers should follow the same behavior, unless
it is requested to generate .di files automatically, which will then
overwrite the corresponding .di files.
I think it is a bug for the .di and .d to have mismatches. For example,
I don't see how the following code could be correct:
---module.di---
int func(int x) pure;
---module.d---
int global;
int func(int x) { return global; }
Any such mismatch should be considered a bug.
In fact, the current lax enforcement of matching makes it possible for
something to be declared pure @safe nothrow in .di, but impure @system
throwing in .d. I think there has been a few bugs like this in druntime
that got fixed.
T
I should have read your earlier post better.
The better approach would then be like the compilers of the Oberon
language family do, by generating the interface file when compiling the
packages.
--
Paulo
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 13:51:20 UTC, Joseph Rushton
Wakeling wrote:
On 09/09/13 15:12, Daniel Murphy wrote:
[snip]
/
Whoa, I didn't think of applying that to member functions.
This seems like
the answer. Put your variables and function prototypes at the
top of your
class. Done.
Problem -- what about:
class Foo
{
// Declarations
void foo();
int bar(double n);
// Definitions
void foo() { }
int bar(double n) { }
// Whoops! Forgot to include this one in the
// declarations list, but it's still accepted
// as part of the class
void goo() { ... }
}
A well-defined rule for separating out declarations and
definitions would check for that and throw a compile error.
I would argue that it is actually better this way (that not all
functions need to be in the declarations list) - its way more
flexible! This way you can leave out function declarations that
you are not really interested to see from a functional overview
perspective of the class.
AFAIC the cost of implementing this would be way too high for any
potential benefit gained from this. And, since Walter already
stated that this would no way be mandatory, the implications
are that the compiler would need to enforce it once any one
function is declared in the declarations list, but... not enforce
it if no functions are declared in the list!
Also, leaving it flexible as it is now cannot silently break
anything. Worse that can happen is that you may inadvertently try
to implement goo() twice (since you may think the missing
declaration imply there is no definition), but then the compiler
will anyway complain about the duplicate definition.
So I agree with Jacob Carlborg - I would also like to know why
the above is not already sufficient...?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 14:22:15 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Question: do you have any access to information about similar short-deadline programming activity using other languages (Java, C# ...) that also forbid the separation of declaration and definition, and how devs using those languages cope with that? It might offer an alternative solution that no one here has thought of. As a long-time Java developer, my answer would be that it's dealt with via careful code crafting. Keep classes small, follow the principle of single responsibility etc. There are tons of good advice for writing maintainable, easy-to-understand code. And there's certainly nothing stopping us from doing the same in D. However, if I understood Manu correctly, the issue here is those instances where there is not a lot of time, as in 48-hour game jams and game industry crunch mode. The cases where it is felt that code quality takes second place to getting things out fast. In those cases, I think Java people would feel the same problem. It can be alleviated, in Java, by making sure you write interfaces for all public-facing code. The same could be done in D, but I am unsure if that would involve a performance hit that might actually matter in games programming. So at that point, the Java programmer would rely on the IDE to make sense of the bigfiles they are producing. Now, I think an argument could be made that the initial productivity loss from performing refactorings to make sure you are producing maintainable code will pay off in a short while, even in crunchmode, but I realise this is something the games industry in general would have to deal with, and it should not be a burden put upon the individuals wishing to adopt D for making games. As for the DIP, I would not want to code using that style myself, but I wouldn't mind it if the requirement was to keep all parts of the same class in the same module. Once we start crossing file boundaries, finding out where stuff is is going to be terrible unless you have a good IDE support for things like Go to definition.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 18:41, Ettienne Gilbert wrote:
I would argue that it is actually better this way (that not all functions need
to be in the declarations list) - its way more flexible! This way you can leave
out function declarations that you are not really interested to see from a
functional overview perspective of the class.
AFAICS the request is for separation of declaration and definition, so you'd be
able to do things like this:
class Foo
{
void foo();
int bar(double x);
void goo(int n);
// ... etc.
}
... and then later in the same file:
void Foo.foo()
{
/* ... function body ... */
}
int Foo.bar(double x)
{
/* ... ditto ... */
}
void Foo.goo(int n)
{
/* ... and so on ... */
}
Now, you'd be at liberty to mix declarations and definitions in the _class_ (or
struct) declaration, e.g.:
class Foo
{
void foo(); // we define this somewhere else
int bar(double x)
{
/* ... but we define this here */
}
// ... etc.
}
But supposing that a function is declared but not defined inside the class
declaration, it should be obligatory that it _is_ defined somewhere else in the
file -- and conversely, if a class function is defined somewhere else in the
file, it should be obligatory that it's declared in the class declaration.
And on top of that, it should be obligatory that the declaration and definition
match perfectly. (Note that for any function defined in the class declaration,
this is automatically and unavoidably true:-)
AFAIC the cost of implementing this would be way too high for any potential
benefit gained from this. And, since Walter already stated that this would no
way be mandatory, the implications are that the compiler would need to enforce
it once any one function is declared in the declarations list, but... not
enforce it if no functions are declared in the list!
I am personally inclined to leave it to Walter to decide whether the cost of
this is too much. At the very least having this possibility seems to be in line
with earlier plans.
Also, leaving it flexible as it is now cannot silently break anything. Worse
that can happen is that you may inadvertently try to implement goo() twice
(since you may think the missing declaration imply there is no definition), but
then the compiler will anyway complain about the duplicate definition.
So I agree with Jacob Carlborg - I would also like to know why the above is not
already sufficient...?
Because it allows a situation where you can have an incomplete list of member
function declarations for a class or struct, and yet not know that it's
incomplete without manual checking -- which I think fails to satisfy the needs
Manu has identified.
We can reasonably debate whether those needs are worth addressing at all, and
whether addressing them comes at too high a cost, but we should be clear on what
solutions address them properly and what don't.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 19:47:06 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 9/8/13, Jesse Phillips jesse.k.phillip...@gmail.com wrote: I realize that we want to make it as painless as possible for Remedy to switch from C++ to D (along with the rest of the game developers). FWIW I don't think this has anything to do with Remedy (afaik Manu doesn't work there anymore). I did not realize he had left, but I did realize he was speaking for himself. I'm mostly just using Remedy as the symbol of large C++ code bases/programmers which want to use D because they actually are. I could see Manu's position being common for this user type, I don't think it is common for most D or other language programmers.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 03:46:23 UTC, Manu wrote: People make claims like write better code, split it up better, document your code better, use the IDE folding, blah blah, but it's simply not the practical reality. The budget and schedule does not typically allow for careful consideration, design, and documentation of such throw away code which glues the project together. I think DDOC should be improved to handle this scenario. Being able to generate docs with undocumented members would be great for internal development of the module. I realize that doesn't address all your problems, but I think that is the correct direction.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 20:05, Jesse Phillips wrote: I think DDOC should be improved to handle this scenario. Being able to generate docs with undocumented members would be great for internal development of the module. I realize that doesn't address all your problems, but I think that is the correct direction. Better DDoc is always going to be nice, but come on -- that doesn't address the issue of looking at code in a diff or a copy-paste via chat software, and in the scenarios Manu has described, no one's going to have time to write documentation comments. OK, you could have a DDoc setting to at least _list_ all elements of class interfaces etc., even if there's no doc comment, but that doesn't address the other factors.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 20:30, Gary Willoughby wrote: This is such a poor argument for changing and further complicating the language. There are so many ways to get a class overview *even* in plain text. I can't honestly believe this is the catalyst for this DIP. I can understand anyone feeling that the costs aren't worth it, but I don't think it's ever good to dismiss battle experience of skilled developers, especially when it comes from scenarios that you or I may not have personal experience of. I don't mind finding out I'm wrong (actually, I'd quite like to be in this case:-), but I'd like to understand how I could get the class overview in the plain-text scenarios described in my previous email.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 18:23:21 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Better DDoc is always going to be nice, but come on -- that doesn't address the issue of looking at code in a diff or a copy-paste via chat software, and in the scenarios Manu has described, no one's going to have time to write documentation comments. This is such a poor argument for changing and further complicating the language. There are so many ways to get a class overview *even* in plain text. I can't honestly believe this is the catalyst for this DIP.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 08:23:07PM +0200, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: On 09/09/13 20:05, Jesse Phillips wrote: I think DDOC should be improved to handle this scenario. Being able to generate docs with undocumented members would be great for internal development of the module. I realize that doesn't address all your problems, but I think that is the correct direction. Better DDoc is always going to be nice, but come on -- that doesn't address the issue of looking at code in a diff or a copy-paste via chat software, and in the scenarios Manu has described, no one's going to have time to write documentation comments. OK, you could have a DDoc setting to at least _list_ all elements of class interfaces etc., even if there's no doc comment, but that doesn't address the other factors. Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) T -- It said to install Windows 2000 or better, so I installed Linux instead.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, September 09, 2013 15:51:11 Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
On 09/09/13 15:12, Daniel Murphy wrote:
Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote in message
news:l0jrm7$3199$1...@digitalmars.com...
So what's wrong with this approach, that's already working today:
class Foo
{
void foo ();
void foo ()
{
}
}
void main ()
{
auto foo = new Foo;
foo.foo();
}
BTW, this feature was implemented because you asked for it.
--
/Jacob Carlborg
Whoa, I didn't think of applying that to member functions. This seems
like
the answer. Put your variables and function prototypes at the top of your
class. Done.
Problem -- what about:
class Foo
{
// Declarations
void foo();
int bar(double n);
// Definitions
void foo() { }
int bar(double n) { }
// Whoops! Forgot to include this one in the
// declarations list, but it's still accepted
// as part of the class
void goo() { ... }
}
A well-defined rule for separating out declarations and definitions would
check for that and throw a compile error.
Walter's proposal would be no different on that count. All that the DIP is
proposing is a way to define a member function outside of a class. That
requires that it already be declared in the class, but it doesn't make it so
that you can't define other functions directly in the class.
- Jonathan M Davis
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 22:01, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
You could use compile-time introspection where the API would look like:
class C
{
void foo();
void foo() { }
void bar() { } // missing declaration
mixin VerifyDeclarations;
}
And this would statically assert if there's a missing declaration for
a definition. I think this might even be doable with the current
introspection features, although I'm not sure whether we have a way to
determine if something is a declaration or a definition. Certainly
such a trait could easily be added to the compiler.
Fair enough. In that case I guess my objections don't really hold water.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/13, Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net wrote:
A well-defined rule for separating out declarations and definitions would
check
for that and throw a compile error.
You could use compile-time introspection where the API would look like:
class C
{
void foo();
void foo() { }
void bar() { } // missing declaration
mixin VerifyDeclarations;
}
And this would statically assert if there's a missing declaration for
a definition. I think this might even be doable with the current
introspection features, although I'm not sure whether we have a way to
determine if something is a declaration or a definition. Certainly
such a trait could easily be added to the compiler.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/09/13 21:30, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Walter's proposal would be no different on that count. All that the DIP is proposing is a way to define a member function outside of a class. That requires that it already be declared in the class, but it doesn't make it so that you can't define other functions directly in the class. Sure. The thing is that if you can only declare and define within the class, this potential problem is unavoidable -- you can _never_ be certain that your list of declarations is complete. If on the other hand you can define outside the class declaration, then you can make it a design decision to only declare within the class declaration, and to define elsewhere in the module. In that case it should be possible to guarantee a safety check that what's declared is defined and what's defined is declared -- and that the two match precisely.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/13 12:35 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) OK, so what's the trouble with .di generation today? Andrei
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 21:20:34 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 9/9/13 12:35 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) OK, so what's the trouble with .di generation today? Andrei Related to this: Is semantic information necessary for .di generation, or can it be built from the AST?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 17:34:23 UTC, Joseph Rushton
Wakeling wrote:
On 09/09/13 18:41, Ettienne Gilbert wrote:
I would argue that it is actually better this way (that not
all functions need
to be in the declarations list) - its way more flexible! This
way you can leave
out function declarations that you are not really interested
to see from a
functional overview perspective of the class.
AFAICS the request is for separation of declaration and
definition, so you'd be able to do things like this:
class Foo
{
void foo();
int bar(double x);
void goo(int n);
// ... etc.
}
... and then later in the same file:
void Foo.foo()
{
/* ... function body ... */
}
int Foo.bar(double x)
{
/* ... ditto ... */
}
void Foo.goo(int n)
{
/* ... and so on ... */
}
Now, you'd be at liberty to mix declarations and definitions in
the _class_ (or struct) declaration, e.g.:
class Foo
{
void foo(); // we define this somewhere else
int bar(double x)
{
/* ... but we define this here */
}
// ... etc.
}
But supposing that a function is declared but not defined
inside the class declaration, it should be obligatory that it
_is_ defined somewhere else in the file -- and conversely, if a
class function is defined somewhere else in the file, it should
be obligatory that it's declared in the class declaration.
And on top of that, it should be obligatory that the
declaration and definition match perfectly. (Note that for any
function defined in the class declaration, this is
automatically and unavoidably true:-)
Ahh, ok. I see where you are coming from - you were evaluating
the implications of what Jacob Carlborg proposed if mixed in
with Walter's DIP47, right? My points though was specifically on
the implications of Jacob Carlborg's proposal in isolation i.e.
as an acceptable alternative to DIP47. And, AFAICS, Jacob posed
the question to Manu this way as well (I think - but maybe Jacob
can confirm/deny).
If you mix the 2 I agree with you for the most part. But the real
question for me (and I suspect Jacob) is this:
Is this...
class Foo
{
void foo();
int bar(double x);
void goo(int n);
// ... etc.
}
void Foo.foo()
{
/* ... function body ... */
}
int Foo.bar(double x)
{
/* ... ditto ... */
}
void Foo.goo(int n)
{
/* ... and so on ... */
}
...really so much better than this?
class Foo
{
void foo();
int bar(double x);
void goo(int n);
// ... etc.
void foo()
{
/* ... function body ... */
}
int bar(double x)
{
/* ... ditto ... */
}
void goo(int n)
{
/* ... and so on ... */
}
}
Granted, this sacrifices some flexibility from DIP47. But these
are of such dubious quality/use/potential pitfalls (as discussed
in this thread), that I hardly think DIP47 is worth implementing
as a result. Especially since, what we currently have (as shown
by Carl,) already gives you arguably 90%+ (IMHO) of Manu's
request for (I quote) You don't need to see the function bodies
in the class definition, you want to quickly see what a class has
and does. Does it really matter that the function definitions
are also present inside the class definition, as long as you can
also see what a class has and does in the declarations list at
the top?
Of course fixing the current issues with .di generation is
important as a separate issue.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 02:20:34PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 9/9/13 12:35 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the
mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.)
OK, so what's the trouble with .di generation today?
[...]
1) It could be pretty-printed (it currently tries to, but it's not very
pretty).
2) Eponymous templates look ugly. I.e., this:
template MyClass(T) {
class MyClass {
...
}
}
instead of:
class MyClass(T) {
...
}
3) It loses manual formatting, like turning this:
writeln(This is a very very long string ~
broken across multiple lines);
into:
writeln(This is a very very long string ~ broken across multiple
lines);
which detracts from readability when the expression is very long.
This also applies to signature contraints, which are just
concatenated onto an already-over-long function signature.
A related issue concerns reordering of function qualifiers, e.g., if
your code looks like this:
void func(int a) pure @safe nothrow {
...
}
it gets turned into:
pure @safe nothrow void func(int a) {
...
}
which is a bit jarring since when reviewing the .di file you may be
expecting what you wrote, not what the compiler thinks you should
have written.
4) It includes template function bodies inline, which means it fails to
serve as a class-at-a-glance format in that case. It could use the
declare-first, implement-later approach some have suggested, i.e.:
class MyTemplateClass(T) {
void member();
...
void member() { /* implementation here */ }
}
instead of the current:
class MyTemplateClass(T) {
void member() { /* implementation here */ }
...
}
5) Private templates are included along with public ones: to achieve
Manu's goal of interface-at-a-glance, private members and private
templates should be put at the end of the file, rather than in the
midst of the public symbols. Though this is a minor issue; you could
just reorder code in the source manually.
There may be a few other points I missed. But all in all, it's not
*quite* ready to serve as an interface-at-a-glance format yet. I didn't
find any inherent limitations, though (except possibly for templated
private members, but those can be largely alleviated by suitable
reordering), so once these issues are addressed, we should be good to
go.
T
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/8/2013 5:03 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: D's module system has always favored a file-granular approach, e.g. private stuff is module-private. This notion of spilling private access outside the file into methods defined in various other files works against that nice tenet. So it looks there's no obvious and obviously good solution. Probably the first one is more sensible. One solution that has been proposed here (by Manu and perhaps others) is that the outlined functions can only appear inside the same module that the declaration is in. This would resolve the private access problem and the modularity problem.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/13 4:43 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 02:20:34PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 9/9/13 12:35 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) OK, so what's the trouble with .di generation today? [...] 1) It could be pretty-printed (it currently tries to, but it's not very pretty). [more good stuff] Please paste all of the above into a bug report! Andrei
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/13 5:12 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 9/8/2013 5:03 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: D's module system has always favored a file-granular approach, e.g. private stuff is module-private. This notion of spilling private access outside the file into methods defined in various other files works against that nice tenet. So it looks there's no obvious and obviously good solution. Probably the first one is more sensible. One solution that has been proposed here (by Manu and perhaps others) is that the outlined functions can only appear inside the same module that the declaration is in. This would resolve the private access problem and the modularity problem. It also reduces the motivation for the thing as it becomes a minor convenience. Andrei
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 05:39:06PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 9/9/13 4:43 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 02:20:34PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 9/9/13 12:35 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Auto-generation of .di files solves this problem. (Provided we fix the mess that is the current implementation of .di generation, of course.) OK, so what's the trouble with .di generation today? [...] 1) It could be pretty-printed (it currently tries to, but it's not very pretty). [more good stuff] Please paste all of the above into a bug report! [...] http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11003 T -- I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet. -- swr
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-09 00:03:11 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: D's module system has always favored a file-granular approach, e.g. private stuff is module-private. This notion of spilling private access outside the file into methods defined in various other files works against that nice tenet. Is the D module system file-granular or module-granular? I always thought the later. Putting the implementation of functions in the .d file while the declarations are in the corresponding .di does not change things much: it's still one module, but it's one module split over two files. It also helps solve another problem: the problem where you're shipping a library and want to force some things to not be inlined. This is needed if the library is to be swapped for another version without having to recompile all client code. You can do this currently by hand-crafting .di files, but it's a pain to keep it manually in sync with the .d file. -- Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca http://michelf.ca
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 10:09:51PM -0400, Michel Fortin wrote: On 2013-09-09 00:03:11 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: D's module system has always favored a file-granular approach, e.g. private stuff is module-private. This notion of spilling private access outside the file into methods defined in various other files works against that nice tenet. Is the D module system file-granular or module-granular? I always thought the later. Putting the implementation of functions in the .d file while the declarations are in the corresponding .di does not change things much: it's still one module, but it's one module split over two files. It also helps solve another problem: the problem where you're shipping a library and want to force some things to not be inlined. This is needed if the library is to be swapped for another version without having to recompile all client code. You can do this currently by hand-crafting .di files, but it's a pain to keep it manually in sync with the .d file. [...] It would be nice if UDAs can somehow be used to mark functions as don't-inline, so that dmd -H produces the correct .di file without requiring manual maintenance. T -- Mediocrity has been pushed to extremes.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/2013 5:39 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 9/9/13 5:12 PM, Walter Bright wrote: This would resolve the private access problem and the modularity problem. It also reduces the motivation for the thing as it becomes a minor convenience. Yup.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/08/2013 07:00 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Actually, for those who really want this sort of thing, why don't they just use .di files? Because this is a prerequisite to do so. One important point is being able to verify the definition against the declaration which isn't currently possible.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/07/2013 07:00 PM, Walter Bright wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 I'm really happy to see this discussed. The DIP misses to mention one of the most important rationale IMO, hiding of implementation details. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47#Semantics 7. Outlined member function return types, parameter types, and function bodies have private access to the module where the aggregate is declared. I think this is problematic because it gives up the nice everything-within-this-file property of private. Doesn't package access mitigate the need for private access? What about module scope functions?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/9/2013 9:24 PM, Martin Nowak wrote: 7. Outlined member function return types, parameter types, and function bodies have private access to the module where the aggregate is declared. I think this is problematic because it gives up the nice everything-within-this-file property of private. Doesn't package access mitigate the need for private access? The trouble with eschewing private access for member functions is then arguably the member functions do not belong in the class at all - they should be UFCS functions.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 17:00:08 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 Parameter names need not match. I can't wait to implement a static code analysis rule that yells at people for not having them match. If there is a default parameter value, it may only appear in the member function declaration. Shouldn't they match? @safe/@trusted/@system, private/package/public/export access, linkage and storage classes are as set in the declaration, overriding any in effect for the definition. Again. Someone will create a static code analysis tool that warns about this. Why allow it in the language?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 08/09/13 15:40, Walter Bright wrote: On 9/7/2013 9:46 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On an implementation note, I don't think that #5 is strong enough. I think that it should be an outright error if there is a difference between the declaration and definition rather than giving one precedence over the other. I'll point out that C++ has equivalent behavior, and it has not resulted in any complaints I've ever heard. When you outline a C++ member function, you do not need to add 'static', 'private', 'virtual', and in fact you cannot add the latter two. Here's one. It's one of the things that I don't like about C/C++ as it doubles the work required in code maintenance. One of the things that I like about D is that forward references aren't required and this seems to me to be introducing a feature that was only ever in C/C++ to make forward references possible (which is why I tolerated it). In summary, you've gotten rid of the need for this type of duplication so why would you introduce it? Peter
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Am 08.09.2013 07:48, schrieb Iain Buclaw:
On Sep 8, 2013 5:55 AM, dennis luehring dl.so...@gmx.net wrote:
Am 07.09.2013 19:00, schrieb Walter Bright:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration
of a
member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of
it at
global scope in the module or even in another module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
Parameter names need not match.
please don't do this - that will nearly kill any easy way of finding the
implementation,
That depends on your coding style and is not necessarily true. Eg: I put
function names at the start of the line.
int
foo_bar ()
{
}
So all global functions are easily grep'able ('^foo_bar').
Same thing is also done with C++ outlined members ('^Class::foo_bar') and I
could see myself adopting the same for D aggregate methods too.
Regards
im talking about Parameter names need not match.
so it will become hard to find the same overload of a method if someone
else writes int a, int b in declaration and int pa, int pb in
implementation - and the only benefit is beeing compatible with c/c++ -
that will introduce another point in all D-coding-style guides around
the world not to rename parameter in implementation
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 04:32:36 UTC, Daniel Murphy wrote: Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote in message news:l0fm2o$2uat$1...@digitalmars.com... Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 I am strongly opposed to this DIP. I think it brings a little slice of C++ hell to D. This change will result in manually-synchronized duplication. The argument that IDEs can deal with this automatically is irrelevant, because they currently can't and are unlikely to do so any time soon. The main motivation for this seems to be that you can't get a clear overview of a class from looking at the raw source code. I propose a much simpler solution to this: ** Introduce compiler-checked (via warnings) class summary documentation. ** This solves the problem - an overview of the class is available in the raw source code, and enabling the warning will prevent them from getting out of sync. Let's solve a documentation issue with documentation improvements. This generated documentation solution seems like the best approach.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 8 September 2013 07:14, dennis luehring dl.so...@gmx.net wrote:
Am 08.09.2013 07:48, schrieb Iain Buclaw:
On Sep 8, 2013 5:55 AM, dennis luehring dl.so...@gmx.net wrote:
Am 07.09.2013 19:00, schrieb Walter Bright:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration
of a
member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of
it at
global scope in the module or even in another module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
Parameter names need not match.
please don't do this - that will nearly kill any easy way of finding the
implementation,
That depends on your coding style and is not necessarily true. Eg: I put
function names at the start of the line.
int
foo_bar ()
{
}
So all global functions are easily grep'able ('^foo_bar').
Same thing is also done with C++ outlined members ('^Class::foo_bar') and
I
could see myself adopting the same for D aggregate methods too.
Regards
im talking about Parameter names need not match.
so it will become hard to find the same overload of a method if someone else
writes int a, int b in declaration and int pa, int pb in implementation -
and the only benefit is beeing compatible with c/c++ - that will introduce
another point in all D-coding-style guides around the world not to rename
parameter in implementation
I was talking about Parameter names need not match too... I disagree
that mismatched parameter names makes things hard to find, and by way
of example, I just search for the function. I never say right, I
need to find this implementation and grep for the parameter list in
the declaration...
Regards
--
Iain Buclaw
*(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/7/2013 11:08 PM, Peter Williams wrote: In summary, you've gotten rid of the need for this type of duplication so why would you introduce it? I believe that is covered in the Rationale section of the dip.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Am 08.09.2013 08:46, schrieb Iain Buclaw: im talking about Parameter names need not match. so it will become hard to find the same overload of a method if someone else writes int a, int b in declaration and int pa, int pb in implementation - and the only benefit is beeing compatible with c/c++ - that will introduce another point in all D-coding-style guides around the world not to rename parameter in implementation I was talking about Parameter names need not match too... I disagree that mismatched parameter names makes things hard to find, and by way of example, I just search for the function. I never say right, I need to find this implementation and grep for the parameter list in the declaration... i work as a independed refactorig/bug hunter developer on big team (30+ developers) big projects (1Mio LOC+) - i need to do that most of the time - i like D for beeing better refactorable/readable in the long run (years) of projects different people - different needs
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 06:47:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 9/7/2013 11:08 PM, Peter Williams wrote: In summary, you've gotten rid of the need for this type of duplication so why would you introduce it? I believe that is covered in the Rationale section of the dip. IMHO the rationale of the proposal il pretty weak: - You can't have a 1:1 correspondence with translated C++ code, so the translation barrier can be lower. - You can't read _easily_ the code. The first is not a problem, if it is true that D avoidance of duplication is better than C++ way of doing that stuff (and that's a C++ problem, as Peter suggested). I would also add that I don't think at all that this is a concrete translation barrier: usually I start copying and pasting the C++ header in the D code, and then filling the methods translating from the cpp part one after another. The second point is more subtle, as we are talking about an easy _navigation_ in the code in the editor, we are talking about being able to gain a sense of familiarity with foreign code? The former is something that should not impact over the language at all (alas, C++ navigation, back and forth between header and implementation is a mess), The latter resolved by D with DDOC, which it is perfectible BUT is _today_ a wonderful tool for strangers: the D library section on DLang site is there to prove it. You have at a glance all the definitions, documented and in sync with the last compilation. What is missing from that? - Paolo Invernizzi
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
I'm against it. More important than such a gimmick are the many open bugs, auto ref, AA, scope, etc. And don't forget the implementation of the virtual keyword.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 09:15:52 UTC, Namespace wrote: I'm against it. More important than such a gimmick are the many open bugs, auto ref, AA, scope, etc. And don't forget the implementation of the virtual keyword. +1
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 09:24:52 UTC, Michael wrote: On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 09:15:52 UTC, Namespace wrote: I'm against it. More important than such a gimmick are the many open bugs, auto ref, AA, scope, etc. And don't forget the implementation of the virtual keyword. +1 I strongly dislike DIP47, I found many unintended discrepancies in our C code-base at work... precisely because of lax rules, even cases with wrong linkage as result! Parameter names need not match. If there is a default parameter value, it may only appear in the member function declaration. This forces indexing of source and jump to declaration features in the IDE, the current way is more friendly to simpler text-editors, the problem which DIP47 is trying to solve is anyway solved by IDE:s Class View feature etc. i.e. For people using IDE:s(class view, or ddoc) nothing changes with DIP47. For people using plain editors, DIP47 makes it worse. Even if DIP47 is implemented, I hope this feature is strongly discouraged in the standard library.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Wouldn't this style be an acceptable compromise instead? with
both declaration and definition 100% identical.
struct S
{
// member function declarations
static int mfunc1(int a, int b = 5) pure;
static int mfunc2(int a, int b = 5) pure;
static int mfunc3(int a, int b = 5) pure;
// member function definitions
static int mfunc1(int a, int b = 5) pure
{
}
static int mfunc2(int a, int b = 5) pure
{
}
static int mfunc3(int a, int b = 5) pure
{
}
}
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 09/08/2013 06:46 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: If I had to vote though, I'd vote against this, because I think that it's a bad paradigm, and I don't want to deal with it. +1
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
08-Sep-2013 09:00, Jonathan M Davis пишет: On Saturday, September 07, 2013 10:00:05 Walter Bright wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 Actually, for those who really want this sort of thing, why don't they just use .di files? At that point, you're doing basically the same thing that C++ does anyway (which is part of why I hate .di files). What benefit over that do we really get by adding this feature? And speaking of IDEs, they easily grow a simple feature - press some short-cut and it would display what dmd -H of the current file looks like. No need to bend the language backwards. - Jonathan M Davis -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 10:59:34 UTC, Robert Schadek wrote:
On 09/08/2013 06:46 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
If I had to vote though, I'd vote against this, because I
think that
it's a bad paradigm, and I don't want to deal with it.
+1
+1
Also issues mentioned by Manu are easily solvable:
DI files and/or DDOC + remove one level of indentation after
class:
---
class Foo
{
void foo()
{
writeln(hello world);
}
}
---
;)
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 2013-09-07 17:00:05 +, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com said:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the
declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing
the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another
module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
About placing the definition in another module, you say that the
definition when outlined in another module would have private access to
the private members of the module of declaration. Does that mean that
the definition has access to the private members of two modules at the
same time, the one it is declared in and the one it is defined in? That
seems strange to me.
I find it strange that pure/const/immutable/shared/nothrow need to
match, yet static does not. Beside this being the way it works in C++
(presumably because static at global scope has another meaning
inherited from C), I see no reason for this. In C++ I often find myself
wondering whether a function has access to the member variables and I
have to find the definition in the header file, which is inconvenient.
Static being part of the definition seems to only make sense.
About parameter names, I think it'd be better if they were forced to
match. Mismatches are a code smell to me: if you reverse the meaning of
two parameters with the same type while refactoring, you must be sure
the public interface and the implementation still agree. I guess you
could allow the declaration to omit the parameter names in which case
the definition could add a name, but don't allow *different* names,
it's pointless and it can easily hide a bug.
I think it's fine that default values for parameters don't have to be
repeated, but it'd be nice if they *could* because it enables
copy-pasting of the declarations. The compiler would of course have to
check that both expressions are identical.
I'd like to make a suggestion. If one goal is effectively to allow the
implementation of a function to live in a separate file from its
declaration, then we already have a mechanism for that: .di files. So
I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its corresponding
.di file. Then the .d file should only contain the missing definitions
for what's declared in the hand-crafted .di file. That'd remove the
dubious semantics of making the definition part of another module and
would also allow outlining of global functions. And it also matches
better the C++ model of header/implementation files.
Also, I'd allow outlining only for this specific case where a .di file
is imported by a .d file. This way you know for sure when you see a
declaration without the definition in a .di file that this declaration
is in the corresponding .d file and not anywhere else, making it easier
to hunt it down.
Example:
// test.di
module test;
class A {
void foo(int a, int b);
}
// test.d
import module test; // import declarations from the .di file
void A.foo(int a, int b) {
// member function definition
}
--
Michel Fortin
michel.for...@michelf.ca
http://michelf.ca
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On 9/8/13, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca wrote: So I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its corresponding .di file. This is actually what Andrei proposed as well.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 17:00:08 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in another module. http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47 I'm absolutely against this DIP. This proposal is just going back to the hell of header files again. Why on earth would you emulate C/C++ when D was supposed to be designed taking into account lessons learned from them. This is unnecessary complexity added for the sake of a few programmers who can't get out of C++ mode. I think you need to have a good hard think about *why* header files were introduced into those early languages and then consider if that reason is still valid. Personally i don't think it is. Java and C# do just fine without this. Seriously, this goes against everything you learn as a programmer, nothing should ever be typed twice and then to say that the declaration and implementation could be different just boggles my mind?!?! Great more work! If implemented, i will never used this feature and i will never deal with code that uses it either. I choose D *purely* because it didn't have this header file nonsense. If i find in future i start seeing more and more of this style of D code i would just move on to use something else that doesn't have all this extra baggage and work associated with it. Just because Manu brings it up randomly you decide to create a DIP? In reality this is a documentation issue. Which has already been addressed by DDOC or *.di files. If data exists in one form, and it is needed in another, that's work a computer should do. Not a human! IDE's also give you numerous tools to get class overviews and such. If you are suggesting that you also need these class overviews in code to be viewed on github etc, just use comments. They are as arbitrary and simpler to implement. Honestly this DIP is going backwards, i was under the impression D was going forwards! I am so disappointed.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:46:49 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote: This proposal is just going back to the hell of header files again. It has nothing to do with header files. Or real header file problems. Seriously, this goes against everything you learn as a programmer, nothing should ever be typed twice and then to say that the declaration and implementation could be different just boggles my mind?!?! Great more work! It is no different from overriding `interface` methods in class. From the code structure point of view, declaration is interface. Implementation is implementation. Keeping those separate may sometimes/often be useful. That said, I am strongly against permissive rules proposed in this DIP. It should be similar to overriding rules - any smallest difference between to signatures and program stops compiling. Otherwise it is maintenance hell.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
P.S. In general I'd love to have feature feature proposed in DIP47 but its importance is very, _very_ low, right now it is probably the least important DIP in the whole list.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
08-Sep-2013 16:02, Michel Fortin пишет:
On 2013-09-07 17:00:05 +, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com
said:
Outlining of member functions is the practice of placing the
declaration of a member function in the struct/class/union, and
placing the definition of it at global scope in the module or even in
another module.
http://wiki.dlang.org/DIP47
About placing the definition in another module, you say that the
definition when outlined in another module would have private access to
the private members of the module of declaration. Does that mean that
the definition has access to the private members of two modules at the
same time, the one it is declared in and the one it is defined in? That
seems strange to me.
Same here. This was the ugliest point.
[snip]
I'd like to make a suggestion. If one goal is effectively to allow the
implementation of a function to live in a separate file from its
declaration, then we already have a mechanism for that: .di files. So
I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its corresponding
.di file. Then the .d file should only contain the missing definitions
for what's declared in the hand-crafted .di file. That'd remove the
dubious semantics of making the definition part of another module and
would also allow outlining of global functions. And it also matches
better the C++ model of header/implementation files.
Also, I'd allow outlining only for this specific case where a .di file
is imported by a .d file. This way you know for sure when you see a
declaration without the definition in a .di file that this declaration
is in the corresponding .d file and not anywhere else, making it easier
to hunt it down.
Example:
// test.di
module test;
class A {
void foo(int a, int b);
}
// test.d
import module test; // import declarations from the .di file
void A.foo(int a, int b) {
// member function definition
}
With this suggestion it finally becomes sane.
--
Dmitry Olshansky
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:53:11 UTC, Dicebot wrote: Seriously, this goes against everything you learn as a programmer, nothing should ever be typed twice and then to say that the declaration and implementation could be different just boggles my mind?!?! Great more work! It is no different from overriding `interface` methods in class. From the code structure point of view, declaration is interface. Implementation is implementation. Keeping those separate may sometimes/often be useful. That said, I am strongly against permissive rules proposed in this DIP. It should be similar to overriding rules - any smallest difference between to signatures and program stops compiling. Otherwise it is maintenance hell. Well you've just argued against your first paragraph there. The issue is (as you recognise) the extra complexity introduced with having a declaration and an implementation both of which could be different and/or not clear how they relate. But it goes further than that. If this DIP is implemented and you are working with code written like this you now have to change the code in two places when you want to update a method. Also you now have to find the implementation or declaration which is a total pain when not using an IDE. You now have more files. Longer compilation times. All for what? Not using -D on the command line? Come on! This is entirely different to how overloading works because in that scenario you are explicitly saying in your code this method overrides the parent (or interface) with this one that matches that signature exactly. There is no duplication, it's explicit overriding which is different. Also could you give me any examples of where keeping the declaration separate to the implementation is sometimes/often useful. Because IMHO it only adds work and Java and C# do just fine. I don't think Walter realises how much of a plus point it is for D to not have this 'feature'. I mean if this was implemented and code started appearing written in this style (as it will) why would people choose D over C++ to get stuff done when they both offer the same headaches now?
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
Am 08.09.2013 15:11, schrieb Gary Willoughby:
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:53:11 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
Seriously, this goes against everything you learn as a programmer,
nothing should ever be typed twice and then to say that the
declaration and implementation could be different just boggles my
mind?!?! Great more work!
It is no different from overriding `interface` methods in class. From
the code structure point of view, declaration is interface.
Implementation is implementation. Keeping those separate may
sometimes/often be useful.
That said, I am strongly against permissive rules proposed in this
DIP. It should be similar to overriding rules - any smallest
difference between to signatures and program stops compiling.
Otherwise it is maintenance hell.
Well you've just argued against your first paragraph there. The issue is
(as you recognise) the extra complexity introduced with having a
declaration and an implementation both of which could be different
and/or not clear how they relate. But it goes further than that. If this
DIP is implemented and you are working with code written like this you
now have to change the code in two places when you want to update a
method. Also you now have to find the implementation or declaration
which is a total pain when not using an IDE. You now have more files.
Longer compilation times. All for what? Not using -D on the command
line? Come on!
This is entirely different to how overloading works because in that
scenario you are explicitly saying in your code this method overrides
the parent (or interface) with this one that matches that signature
exactly. There is no duplication, it's explicit overriding which is
different.
Also could you give me any examples of where keeping the declaration
separate to the implementation is sometimes/often useful. Because IMHO
it only adds work and Java and C# do just fine.
I don't think Walter realises how much of a plus point it is for D to
not have this 'feature'. I mean if this was implemented and code started
appearing written in this style (as it will) why would people choose D
over C++ to get stuff done when they both offer the same headaches now?
Not only Java and C#, but any other language with module support, even
the ones that have native compilers by default.
The ones that offer interface definitions, like Delphi, Modula-{2,3}, ML
family among many others, have a model that D already offers via the .di
files.
So I also agree this is a step backwards.
--
Paulo
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 13:11:01 UTC, Gary Willoughby
wrote:
That said, I am strongly against permissive rules proposed in
this DIP. It should be similar to overriding rules - any
smallest difference between to signatures and program stops
compiling. Otherwise it is maintenance hell.
Well you've just argued against your first paragraph there. The
issue is (as you recognise) the extra complexity introduced
with having a declaration and an implementation both of which
could be different and/or not clear how they relate.
Not really. Issue is cognitive load of matching definition and
declaration if they are allowed to be out of sync.
But it goes further than that. If this DIP is implemented and
you are working with code written like this you now have to
change the code in two places when you want to update a method.
Also you now have to find the implementation or declaration
which is a total pain when not using an IDE.
I consider it a minor inconvenience for a certain structural gain.
This is entirely different to how overloading works because in
that scenario you are explicitly saying in your code this
method overrides the parent (or interface) with this one that
matches that signature exactly. There is no duplication, it's
explicit overriding which is different.
overloading != overriding. I am speaking about overriding. From
the maintenance point of view this two snippets are identical:
---
interface A
{
void foo();
}
class A_prim : A
{
void foo() { }
}
---
class A
{
void foo();
}
void A.foo()
{
}
---
Same amount of duplication, same amount of information available
for compiler verification.
Also could you give me any examples of where keeping the
declaration separate to the implementation is sometimes/often
useful. Because IMHO it only adds work and Java and C# do just
fine.
I have never worked on any reasonably large Java/C# code base.
But it C++ once amount of entities grows large enough clear
interface overview in header files is basically only way to get
familiar quickly with sources.
As I have already said it is good for same reasons interfaces are
good - easier to abstract away information you shouldn't be aware
of when working in large teams.
I don't think Walter realises how much of a plus point it is
for D to not have this 'feature'. I mean if this was
implemented and code started appearing written in this style
(as it will) why would people choose D over C++ to get stuff
done when they both offer the same headaches now?
I don't think it will matter at all. As it was mentioned, usage
of such feature tends to be private business of certain project -
it won't propagate to yours if you don't use it.
And you really underestimate issues of C++ that force programmers
to seek other languages. Separation of definition and declaration
won't probably be even in top 50.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:46:49 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote: I'm absolutely against this DIP. This proposal is just going back to the hell of header files again. Why on earth would you emulate C/C++ when D was supposed to be designed taking into account lessons learned from them. This is unnecessary complexity added for the sake of a few programmers who can't get out of C++ mode. I think you need to have a good hard think about *why* header files were introduced into those early languages and then consider if that reason is still valid. Personally i don't think it is. Java and C# do just fine without this. Seriously, this goes against everything you learn as a programmer, nothing should ever be typed twice and then to say that the declaration and implementation could be different just boggles my mind?!?! Great more work! If implemented, i will never used this feature and i will never deal with code that uses it either. I choose D *purely* because it didn't have this header file nonsense. If i find in future i start seeing more and more of this style of D code i would just move on to use something else that doesn't have all this extra baggage and work associated with it. Just because Manu brings it up randomly you decide to create a DIP? In reality this is a documentation issue. Which has already been addressed by DDOC or *.di files. If data exists in one form, and it is needed in another, that's work a computer should do. Not a human! IDE's also give you numerous tools to get class overviews and such. If you are suggesting that you also need these class overviews in code to be viewed on github etc, just use comments. They are as arbitrary and simpler to implement. Honestly this DIP is going backwards, i was under the impression D was going forwards! I am so disappointed. I totally agree (stating this just in case number of votes matters).
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
I have never worked on any reasonably large Java/C# code base. But it C++ once amount of entities grows large enough clear interface overview in header files is basically only way to get familiar quickly with sources. This is a job for the *documentation* and if documentation is automatically generated (which it is, see '-D') then this argument is moot. I don't think it will matter at all. As it was mentioned, usage of such feature tends to be private business of certain project - it won't propagate to yours if you don't use it. Except when dealing with books, tutorials, third party libraries, pull requests, etc... I dismay.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:34:06 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 9/8/13, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca wrote: So I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its corresponding .di file. This is actually what Andrei proposed as well. +42
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 15:09:31 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote: This is a job for the *documentation* and if documentation is automatically generated (which it is, see '-D') then this argument is moot. Documentation is tool to help with cross-project learning. I have never seen one used internally inside the same project. It simply does not work that way, not even close in convenience to matching source organization. Takes more time, uses different information representation other than plain code, is not applicable in some contexts (i.e. git log). Built-in IDE tools are generally better for that but, as I have already said, I am not aware of a single one that does it conveniently enough. Except when dealing with books, tutorials, third party libraries, pull requests, etc... That applies to any other possible feature that may or may not exist in D. What I do mean though is that you shouldn't care how third-party library is organized - for you it remains same import statement and documentation investigation that requires to change nothing in your code flow even if third-party library uses this feature and you do not.
Re: new DIP47: Outlining member functions of aggregates
On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 15:14:51 UTC, deadalnix wrote: On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 12:34:06 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 9/8/13, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca wrote: So I'd like to suggest this: allow a .d file to import its corresponding .di file. This is actually what Andrei proposed as well. +42 That is why I had a feeling I have already seen it somewhere :)
