RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
My...I think we have it then. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave AA6YQ Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:02 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? And the internet is a series of connected tubes... 73, Dave, AA6YQ -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:00 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I know this is a late reply...but Linux is a OS based on a Kernel. Linux is an umbrella term that refers to a computer operating system that uses the Linux kernel. When a Linux operating system also uses GNU software, it may be referred to as GNU/Linux. It is the additional GUIs, desktops and set of like system applications and system tools, that make one distribution different from the other. Lets compare it to gasoline and diesel cars...you have many varieties of both varieties. unfortunately in the common user computer OS, you have gasoline cars and the only model is Microsoft. Linux is the diesel with many manufacturers and models but still all diesel. Some like Volvo diesels, some BMW some other brands...but they are all diesel. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Bradley Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 2:13 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I know this is a late reply...but Linux is a OS based on a Kernel. Linux is an umbrella term that refers to a computer operating system that uses the Linux kernel. When a Linux operating system also uses GNU software, it may be referred to as GNU/Linux. It is the additional GUIs, desktops and set of like system applications and system tools, that make one distribution different from the other. Lets compare it to gasoline and diesel cars...you have many varieties of both varieties. unfortunately in the common user computer OS, you have gasoline cars and the only model is Microsoft. Linux is the diesel with many manufacturers and models but still all diesel. Some like Volvo diesels, some BMW some other brands...but they are all diesel. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Bradley Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 2:13 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability and compatibility problems. MS won the desktop because Bill Gates was a great salesman, not because he was a great programmer or technologist. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~ Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
And the internet is a series of connected tubes... 73, Dave, AA6YQ -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:00 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I know this is a late reply...but Linux is a OS based on a Kernel. Linux is an umbrella term that refers to a computer operating system that uses the Linux kernel. When a Linux operating system also uses GNU software, it may be referred to as GNU/Linux. It is the additional GUIs, desktops and set of like system applications and system tools, that make one distribution different from the other. Lets compare it to gasoline and diesel cars...you have many varieties of both varieties. unfortunately in the common user computer OS, you have gasoline cars and the only model is Microsoft. Linux is the diesel with many manufacturers and models but still all diesel. Some like Volvo diesels, some BMW some other brands...but they are all diesel. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Bradley Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 2:13 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability and compatibility problems. MS won the desktop because Bill Gates was a great salesman, not because he was a great programmer or technologist. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Dave, I don't know about your day, but by the time I got to college it had all been converted to transistors. 111, Leigh/WA5ZNU On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 5:25 pm, Dave AA6YQ wrote: And the internet is a series of connected tubes... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 5:25 pm, Dave AA6YQ wrote: And the internet is a series of connected tubes... 73, Dave, AA6YQ
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
John Bradley wrote: I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? Well, they really are compatible, at source level. In any Linux, given gcc and once solved all the library dependencies (manually or automatically), 98% percent of the times, installing an application from the sources reduces to: #1 Extract the package #2 Run configure #3 Run make #4 Run make install. The other 2% can be installed just reading the documentation that comes with it. Anyway, if you have a Debian derivate, or a Red Hat derivate, you have a repository with almost all the packages you need (unless you really like the bleeding edge, in that case, follow the metodology given before). If you run an Slackware, or an Slackware derivate (like me), you have www.linuxpackages.com, or you can make your packages yourself. But if you really miss the download, click and install feature, you still can use PC BSD[1]. The only problem is that is not very ham friendly. 73 de CM3NA [1] http://www.pcbsd.org
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Well stated, John! John - K8OCL Original Message Follows From: John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:13:52 -0600 I First of all , I'm a dyed-in-the-wool windows user, and make no excuses for that. There are interesting parallels between linnux and windows users, and different users of ham radio.. On one hand you find those who are interested in operating, in communicating and making new contacts around the globe. These are also the folks who jump into ARES and SAR teams to provide support, function is the main interest of this type of operator, rather than the form.. success is the ability to communicate under adverse conditions, rather than the how of how it got there. Windows appeals to these folks since it is a relatively simple thing to use, and it works across a broad spectrum of programs. The other side of the equation are those who are very interested in the how and not so much in the why. These are folks who are concerned about the throughput, not the content. They can happily bury themselves in the technical knowledge and patience required to use linux, write endless lines of code and otherwise do all those things that would drive me as an operator crazy. Fortunately there is room for, and a need for both in the digital world., those to write the code and those of us who enjoy using new code and running it to it's limits. Microsoft became popular because it was the simplest tool around to get the job done. Not the most elegant, maybe not the most efficient, but it got the job done. And it was something that could be used with little or no technical training.The ease of operation led to microsoft's dominance in the marketplace with word, powerpoint, outlook and the like. Nothing else written in the early days could beat the ease with which these programs functioned. Microsoft did their market analysis very well and concentrated on software perceived as the greatest need, not obscure specialty graphics software that Apple got into, and built a reputation on. Just plain vanilla word and number crunching. IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/623 - Release Date: 1/11/2007 3:33 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
And Linux *still* doesn't have a decent email/productivity application that rivals Outlook. de Peter K1PGV Is Horde a Linux-compatible app? -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability and compatibility problems. MS won the desktop because Bill Gates was a great salesman, not because he was a great programmer or technologist. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. I don't agree - most Ham software is written by one man and his dog. Speaking for myself, were I to give up the day job I would not have enough time to provide properly packaged and supported multi-platform software. Any idiot can write a program, it's the support which makes the difference and this eats up the time. Simon Brown, HB9DRV
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
But wasn't the greatest need also brought about by the licensing of IBM cloned computers built to run DOS and Windows? Charles, K0CW John Champa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well stated, John! John - K8OCL Original Message Follows From: John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:13:52 -0600 I First of all , I'm a dyed-in-the-wool windows user, and make no excuses for that. There are interesting parallels between linnux and windows users, and different users of ham radio.. On one hand you find those who are interested in operating, in communicating and making new contacts around the globe. These are also the folks who jump into ARES and SAR teams to provide support, function is the main interest of this type of operator, rather than the form.. success is the ability to communicate under adverse conditions, rather than the how of how it got there. Windows appeals to these folks since it is a relatively simple thing to use, and it works across a broad spectrum of programs. The other side of the equation are those who are very interested in the how and not so much in the why. These are folks who are concerned about the throughput, not the content. They can happily bury themselves in the technical knowledge and patience required to use linux, write endless lines of code and otherwise do all those things that would drive me as an operator crazy. Fortunately there is room for, and a need for both in the digital world., those to write the code and those of us who enjoy using new code and running it to it's limits. Microsoft became popular because it was the simplest tool around to get the job done. Not the most elegant, maybe not the most efficient, but it got the job done. And it was something that could be used with little or no technical training.The ease of operation led to microsoft's dominance in the marketplace with word, powerpoint, outlook and the like. Nothing else written in the early days could beat the ease with which these programs functioned. Microsoft did their market analysis very well and concentrated on software perceived as the greatest need, not obscure specialty graphics software that Apple got into, and built a reputation on. Just plain vanilla word and number crunching. IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/623 - Release Date: 1/11/2007 3:33 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Simon, I want to thank you again for your plan to make your new software open source. A problem with some ham software is that it becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and either gradually bitrots (this finding the old library problem) or suddenly stops workiing, and the original developer can't or won't maintain it. By making your software open source, you are helping not only yourself (though I am not questions your staunch commitment!), but also setting an example for other ham authors to do the same, to the benefit of us all. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 5:35 am, Simon Brown wrote: I don't agree - most Ham software is written by one man and his dog.
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Hi, I am *not* making it open source, only the decoding DLL's. The UI will never be open source as it uses copyrighted code. I do have a backup programmer should anything happen to me though. Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Simon, I want to thank you again for your plan to make your new software open source.
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Ah, thank you cor clarifying it. I don't mean to start a rumor. But I still think your decision is an important and exemplary one. Leigh. On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 7:53 am, Simon Brown wrote: Hi, I am *not* making it open source, only the decoding DLL's. The UI will never be open source as it uses copyrighted code. I do have a backup programmer should anything happen to me though. Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Simon, I want to thank you again for your plan to make your new software open source. Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
It was an MS vs Apple battle not MS vs Unix. Or perhaps MS DOS vs IBM PCDOS. MS developed Windows and IBM didn't have an equal. So MS kind of got it bby default. IMHO, had the U.S. gobernment went with Apple rather than MS, then IBM might have entered the windows (GUI) market and things would have been very different. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter G. Viscarola Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:17 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? If UNIX had been available for $50 instead of $1000 back 20 years ago I doubt that MS would have succeeded in the marketplace. This topic is probably more appropriate on Slashdot than on this Yahoo group, but Windows preeminence on the desktop has nothing to do with the operating system itself, or it's cost 20 years back. Windows command of the desktop stems directly from Microsoft's overwhelming dominance in applications such as word, powerpoint, and outlook. Microsoft achieved this application dominance by essentially giving away office with Windows, and thus making office ubiquitous. Word wasn't, and still isn't, the best word processor on the market. Rather, it bought market share until it drove several superior competing products out of the market. Heck, I didn't WANT to give up using Ami Pro (my word processing software of choice 12 years ago) -- I *had* to because all the business people with whom I communicated used Word... And Word was, afterall, available darn close to free (if not completely free) on Windows. Today, yeah... You COULD use Star Office -- it's ALMSOT fully compatible with Word and it's not half bad. But almost fully compatible won't typically cut it in the business world. And Linux *still* doesn't have a decent email/productivity application that rivals Outlook. Back to ham radio, I think the move from 32-bit computing to 64-bit computing is more likely trigger a move by hobbyist, small, independent, and community-based devs to Linux. This is because of Microsoft's ill-conceived security policies (in place for 64-bit Windows Vista and later) that requires things like drivers to be digitally signed using a certificate issued by a recognized certification authority. Acquiring such a certiciation from Verisign (one of the recognized authorities), for example, costs $500/year -- nothing for a large corporation, but a chunk of change for somebody who writes code in their spare time and gives it away to the ham radio community. If the smaller devs move to Linux, that means a lot of innovation will also move. It's already quite common in the industry to have bleeding edge software developed first on Linux and later ported to Windows. Things are changing. Will Linux be the answer? Only time will tell. de Peter K1PGV Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
No or not much collaboration in the ham software world Simon. If hams who write software would collaborate more, I think you would see more and better applications for MS and Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Simon Brown Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 7:31 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? - Original Message - From: kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. I don't agree - most Ham software is written by one man and his dog. Speaking for myself, were I to give up the day job I would not have enough time to provide properly packaged and supported multi-platform software. Any idiot can write a program, it's the support which makes the difference and this eats up the time. Simon Brown, HB9DRV Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
If you don't care about the history of Windows vs Unix, you can hit delete now. This has nothing to do with ham radio as far as I can tell. It was an MS vs Apple battle not MS vs Unix. Or perhaps MS DOS vs IBM PCDOS. MS developed Windows and IBM didn't have an equal. So MS kind of got it bby default. I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Apple was never a serious contender. Certainly not in the corporate or government marketplace. The timeframe when Microsoft's major consolidation occurred was between 1989 and 1994. Remember that Windows was developed by MS for IBM, and MS was on track to develop an entirely new replacement for Windows for IBM (what MS eventually released as Windows NT) when the great scism between IBM and MS occurred. Further, while MS was wildly working to get Windows established (prior to and just around the Windows 3.1 timeframe), Unix forces were attempting to align behind a single Unix flavor under the banner of the Open Software Foundation. This died due to the usual squabbles and politics. During this time US government procurment was requiring Posix (IEEE 1003) compliance... Which required Unix. To combat this, Microsoft created specific facilities in Windows NT to accommodate Posix programs. This allowed Windows to be sold into US Government markets that were Posix only. Against this backdrop, the proprietary systems vendors (Digital, Sun (Apollo), HP, and also IBM) were spending vast sums of money to comete with each other, but made it up easily by charging $20K-$50K per workstation. Apple had no role in any of these industry defining machinations. The only place they were on the map at ALL was in desktop publishing (which they continued to dominate for years). de Peter K1PGV
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability and compatibility problems. MS won the desktop because Bill Gates was a great salesman, not because he was a great programmer or technologist. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~ Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Hi! Just my 2 cents: *Apple had no role in any of these industry defining machinations. The only place they were on the map at ALL was in desktop publishing (which they continued to dominate for years). * And still do! lol Regards On 1/12/07, Peter G. Viscarola [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't care about the history of Windows vs Unix, you can hit delete now. This has nothing to do with ham radio as far as I can tell. It was an MS vs Apple battle not MS vs Unix. Or perhaps MS DOS vs IBM PCDOS. MS developed Windows and IBM didn't have an equal. So MS kind of got it bby default. I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Apple was never a serious contender. Certainly not in the corporate or government marketplace. The timeframe when Microsoft's major consolidation occurred was between 1989 and 1994. Remember that Windows was developed by MS for IBM, and MS was on track to develop an entirely new replacement for Windows for IBM (what MS eventually released as Windows NT) when the great scism between IBM and MS occurred. Further, while MS was wildly working to get Windows established (prior to and just around the Windows 3.1 timeframe), Unix forces were attempting to align behind a single Unix flavor under the banner of the Open Software Foundation. This died due to the usual squabbles and politics. During this time US government procurment was requiring Posix (IEEE 1003) compliance... Which required Unix. To combat this, Microsoft created specific facilities in Windows NT to accommodate Posix programs. This allowed Windows to be sold into US Government markets that were Posix only. Against this backdrop, the proprietary systems vendors (Digital, Sun (Apollo), HP, and also IBM) were spending vast sums of money to comete with each other, but made it up easily by charging $20K-$50K per workstation. Apple had no role in any of these industry defining machinations. The only place they were on the map at ALL was in desktop publishing (which they continued to dominate for years). de Peter K1PGV Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Cumprimentos Salomão Fresco CT2IRJ If it works... dont fix it! Esta mensagem foi escrita com electrões 100% reciclados.
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
The Commanding General for AFLC at Wright-Patterson AFB had the call whether the Air Force would go with MS or Apple. He chose MS. IMHO had he gone with MS, then all of the U.S. military and U.S. government would have gone with Apple. To keep in step with the federal government, state and local governments would have gone with Apple. Businesses who did business with government would have gone with Apple. The U.S. business man would have wanted his home computer to be what he had at work...Apple. This is called trickle-down and has shown to be how technology works in the U.S. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Salomao Fresco Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 12:39 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? Hi! Just my 2 cents: Apple had no role in any of these industry defining machinations. The only place they were on the map at ALL was in desktop publishing (which they continued to dominate for years). And still do! lol Regards On 1/12/07, Peter G. Viscarola [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't care about the history of Windows vs Unix, you can hit delete now. This has nothing to do with ham radio as far as I can tell. It was an MS vs Apple battle not MS vs Unix. Or perhaps MS DOS vs IBM PCDOS. MS developed Windows and IBM didn't have an equal. So MS kind of got it bby default. I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Apple was never a serious contender. Certainly not in the corporate or government marketplace. The timeframe when Microsoft's major consolidation occurred was between 1989 and 1994. Remember that Windows was developed by MS for IBM, and MS was on track to develop an entirely new replacement for Windows for IBM (what MS eventually released as Windows NT) when the great scism between IBM and MS occurred. Further, while MS was wildly working to get Windows established (prior to and just around the Windows 3.1 timeframe), Unix forces were attempting to align behind a single Unix flavor under the banner of the Open Software Foundation. This died due to the usual squabbles and politics. During this time US government procurment was requiring Posix (IEEE 1003) compliance... Which required Unix. To combat this, Microsoft created specific facilities in Windows NT to accommodate Posix programs. This allowed Windows to be sold into US Government markets that were Posix only. Against this backdrop, the proprietary systems vendors (Digital, Sun (Apollo), HP, and also IBM) were spending vast sums of money to comete with each other, but made it up easily by charging $20K-$50K per workstation. Apple had no role in any of these industry defining machinations. The only place they were on the map at ALL was in desktop publishing (which they continued to dominate for years). de Peter K1PGV Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Cumprimentos Salomão Fresco CT2IRJ If it works... dont fix it! Esta mensagem foi escrita com electrões 100% reciclados.
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] No or not much collaboration in the ham software world Simon. If hams who write software would collaborate more, I think you would see more and better applications for MS and Linux. Walt/K5YFW We do collaborate behind the scenes in some closed groups - but I honestly don't think we have the human energy required to create true multi-platform products (not programs). The level of organisation would make it a non-starter. The only possible exception is the FlexRadio development - look at the number of developers involved with that! My argument: as Windows has 90% of the desktop market then I'll stick with Windows. I don't think Linux is bad, I could have written my software for Linux, but the advantages of Windows are: * Excellent documentation from Microsoft, * Mature development software, * 90% of the Desktop market, * Windows is Windows (let's forget 95 and 98 for now). The various Linux distributions are a big pain in the neck, I know this from my commercial life. Were there only one Linux - let's say DeadRat - it would be a different matter. Many who think that a true multi-platform program is easy really have little knowledge of the vast difference between the Windows and X/Motif programming libraries. Despite what the market may offer not one single company has come up with a truly platform-independent user interface library / development interface. Just implementing something as simple as a waterfall is so different - no thanks. My options - Simon
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first year to fix errors, same as WinXP. I just installed MS Win98SE on a PC so the children could use some learning games too poorly written to operate cross-platform. It took hours to find and install the necessary drivers and I had to use Linux to access the Internet because MS products are too vulnerable to viruses. A friend has WinXP and has endless problems with it. His laptop had to be returned for service because a virus got past the protective software and made a mess. From all of the reports of MS Vista it suffers the same code-bloat as WinXP, is costly and loaded with MS user-limitations on moving from PC to PC and with their latest attempts to protect their weak code from viruses, and it will still have stability and compatibility problems. MS won the desktop because Bill Gates was a great salesman, not because he was a great programmer or technologist. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~ Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 1/12/2007 2:04 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I haven't yet figured out what the supposed incompatibility between versions is all about. For most packages I've run, it's either compile straight from source and install, or do a search and find pre-built binaries that'll run on my system (Fedora 3). The only thing I've had problems with so far is fldigi -- simply because I've never built anything with the fl libraries before. Being on a dial-up, it may take me a while to find time to get the libraries and build it up, but it's a matter of download time, not trying to find the libraries. Between freshrpms, freshmeat, rpmfind and google searches, I've never been unsuccessful in finding libraries. All those varieties aren't really all that different from each other. - ps John Bradley wrote: I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU You'd be resting your case on a losing premise. Remember that apps written for the various MS versions of windows have not always been compatible -- there are some major problems between word processors. Most apps written for Linux are easily compatible across the various Linux distros. In Linux one is free to customize their OS to meet specialized needs or use a general purpose one -- without paying for the one-size-tries-to-fit-all mess that is MS. One of the two largest makers of animated films left both Apple and MS and went to Linux -- because neither Apple or MS could keep up with their needs. They now have apps that are better than their competitors because when they have a need they just write the new code. Clean, easy, simple. No way one does that with MS products -- too may contract licensing restrictions. Linux = free non-proprietary freedom. Apple MS = costly proprietary straitjacket. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
John, Here is a simplificatin that ought to be useful. Take a normal computer (not a laptop, not an old dirtball 386) and install either Fedora Core 6, Mandriva, or Ubuntu and start from there. Most upstream providers will have packages and libraries that will work on those. If not, you will quickly learn from the support community for the Linux distribution you choose how to get the source and compile it. For example, on Fedora you download foo-1.2.3.tgz and type rpmbuild -tb foo-1.2.3.tgz To compile and then rpm -Ivh foo-1.2.3.i386.rpm To install the resulting file. It will then track all the libraries and version dependencies for you. In Ubuntu it is a similar process but the details are different, but there is still a dependency tracking mechanism, and there is still a community of people maintaining the stuff. Hamish VK3SB maintains the Debian (Ubuntu) versions of some of the popular ham packages. For the smaller distributions such as Puppy and Damn Small Linux, you will find less stuff ready out of the box, and will have to learn more, so if you don't have the need for the special advantages those smaller distributions offer, don't start with them. Don't use straight Debian -- it is too confusing for a novice, and Ubuntu is just fine. Don't use SuSE unless you are in Germany (where it started and plenty are likely to use it). In the US it is mostly enterprise (xorporate) focused and you wouldn't want to use it unless that is your bag. Sometimes (fldigi, gmfsk, ibp) software will just install and work fine, either with the compilation above, or the pre-packaged files, or the more advanced (make/configure) route that doesn't track dependencies. Sometimes it will be harder (QSSTV which languished for 3 or 4 years and required patches out of the box even to compile, though someone has picked it back up). Sometimes, nothing you can do will help you figure it out because the dependencies are just too obscure and the developers, while active, have other concerns (the various Linux DTTSP wrappers for SDR receivers, for example, I find impossible, though a select few have managed it, but the majority just use the Windows code, while the DTTSP developers themselves happily develop their portion on Linux.) Leigh/WA5ZNU On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 2:18 pm, John Bradley wrote: I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU I went from IBM's PCDOS to Linux in Aug of 1991 and never run and MS at home. My XYL does have a XP Laptop but I don't use it. I've only run two Linux distros for my main home computer...RedHat and Mandrake. I have SuSe loaded on a second computer but may try Puppy Linux or Debian on it depending on which runs PSKMail the easiest. The only problems I have every had with Linux were caused by me stupidly messing with the OS. I run/manage over 150 XP clients at work and 6 big W2K servers. IMHO, Linux is much simpler to manage than MS. I have 16 years working with Linux and Unix and 8 years with MS. MS tight rein on companies who make drivers so their hardware can run on MS is probably the major problem with MS vs Linux. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kd4e Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:35 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU This was true several years ago but has become increasingly un-true with every passing day. I am not happy about tweaking anything vs using it -- I have managed Apple, DEC, Linux, and MS systems and MS is no easier than the others. I use Linux every day -- it is more functional and less of a hassle than MS versions of windows. The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Apple runs on their own hardware and now on PC's. It does everything that the various versions of windows from MS can do. I guarantee that Puppy Linux 2.13 is light-years easier to install and use than any version of windows that MS has ever released. It is a fraction of the size, is free, and includes standard office- type apps. It is also more stable and less vulnerable to viruses. Odd that a handful of volunteers can write it vs the billion-dollar MS corporation -- way late releasing Vista and will have to release hundreds of patches in the first
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Dear Rick; I am trying to go into LINUX. I very well understand your idea of using a cross platform interoperability. For the past weeks I have been following all LINUX-related subjects on this site. I have discovered that there are so many LINUX versions. Now a question arises here. Is any application written for one LINUX version capable of operating with another LINUX version? 15 years ago, I used to be a UNIX man. I never liked or used WINDOWS until I was forced to do so by the availabilty of applications. Since then I have discovered that I was right about not liking WINDOWS. It is not stable and it has so many flaws. UNIX was quite different. But a twist by manufacturers made UNIX not exactly a cross platform interoperable system. Every comany had its own UNIX. And one had to work a lot to make a certain applicaion written under one version of UNIX, operate under another version by another manufacturer. So I go back to my main question. Is any application written for one LINUX version capable of operating with another LINUX version? Best 73 Omar YK1AO - Original Message - From: KV9U To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:43 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? I am a big proponent of cross platform interoperability and I am tending to continue moving away from anything that tends to not be cross platform. My Firefox web browser, Open Office suite, XnView photo viewing (and others), the free version of the excellent AVG Virus protection which is also available for Linux, etc. The one area that suffers the most is ironically amateur radio programs, particularly digital amateur radio programs since there do not seem to be many cross platform at this time. Any time you have cross platform programs, there is much more chance that the product has increased viability. And with digital modes, it is even more significant. A good example would be the use of an ARQ PSK63 mode as used in PSKmail if it had cross platform capability. But if you have no one to talk to, you are not going to be using such a mode as it needs a certain number of users to reach a critical mass. There is no reason that we can not have a memory ARQ mode for keyboarding or even faster purposes. The main limitation will be a noticeable latency, but that would depend upon how much time you want to leave for the behind the scenes pipelining. This has already been invented and tried and it works well but the inventor has not released anything to the open source community at this time. What would need to be done is to have this kind of ARQ mode, not only work at high speeds (which it already did), but also work like the proprietary hardware/software modes and have a fall back position as signals weaken or are affected by interference. Thus far, the hams that write digital software are just not interested in doing this. The non response to Jose's comments also shows that almost no digital hams are interested in this either. After all these years, and with all the work that so many have done voluntarily to produce some non-ARQ but excellent keyboard digital modes, it has not yet lead to anything open source that can compete with the closed proprietary equipment/software for high speed digital. I consider that unfortunate. The one exception may be the digital SSTV folks who have developed modes that can get quite a bit of data through in a short time. You have to in order to send pictures with no errors. They even have a crude form of after the fact ARQ to provide fills to receiving stations that may have missed certain blocks of data. This permits a one to many transmission. Last night I was receiving digital SSTV pictures on the 75 meter frequency but the band was fairly quiet with good S/N ratio. Several years ago, a protocol being used by digital SSTV operators was adapted as a connected mode with the SCAMP program. Phenomenal success at high text data rates, but requiring good conditions of around 10 db S/N ratio or better. It just did not have a fall back position when the S/N ratio was too low, )which is much of the time on HF). Although SCAMP used the RDFT protocol, the digital SSTV operators seem to have better performance with QAM types of OFDM and have moved in that direction. I often wonder if there is even one ham working on adapting the existing ham DRM type protocol to a pipelined ARQ connected mode that has adaptability to conditions. This way, you don't have to reinvent the wheel since most of the spokes are already in place. You couple Rick, KN6KB's pipelined ARQ and busy channel detect, with ham DRM, and make it adaptable and I think this would be quite an impressive achievement, especially if it was open source and moved to cross platform use for real world
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
So I go back to my main question. Is any application written for one LINUX version capable of operating with another LINUX version? Best 73 Omar YK1AO Most Linux apps are compatible across most other Linux distros. The challenges are three: 1. Dependencies upon other apps. 2. The version of the Linux kernel used. 3. Unique directory/folder locations used such that a distro may have to redirect or link from what the app expects to what they use for a directory/folder structure. I am very fond of Puppy Linux, especially the just released v 2.13 It is tiny, fast, and powerful. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Hi Omar, Windows has improved greatly with the XP version, but my preference would be an open product for the world rather than a proprietary product. The MS Vista version(s) looks as if there will be very little improvement although some in the security area as some operations may keep a separate root superuser as Linux and Unix have always done. My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem when it is a really serious problem for any demonstrations with a Live disk, etc. to people who use computers for practical work requiring high quality font display. I understand that it is possible to import the Windows fonts after you have loaded Linux although you really should own a copy of Windows OS to make that legal. I have tried many versions of Linux over the years and even had a two computer system for a while using a KVM switch. But I never tried importing the superior Windows fonts and lately have only been trying different live distros, none of which have had quality fonts and none of which can support my 22 widescreen monitor:( One of the other downsides to Linux is having literally hundreds, if not thousands, of versions. They call them distros, which is short for distributions, since it is packaging up various parts of the GNU/Linux OS and selecting certain packages to include as well as the windowing interface. Not only because it is so confusing for anyone interested in running Linux OS, but because it means that untold hours of work go into non-productive results:( Imagine if the energies and clever programming and packing would be focused on just a few versions!! Having said that, the Linux kernel is quite similar for all the versions of a similar date and so are the programs and Gnu libraries, etc, so the versions are much more similar than they are different. I wish we had one amateur radio version of Linux we could all agree on, but this is probably wishful thinking. The one thing that tends to separate the Linux versions is the packagement management for the programs. The most common are the RPM (Redhat Package Manager) and the DEB (Debian) packages. I lean more toward .deb due to certain characteristics where it is suppposed to be able to bring in all dependencies when you bring in a program from a depository. The depositories are maintained for many different distros and some have many thousands. Of course, many programs are included on the disk(s) you download or buy, but not so much for amateur radio:( If you have a distro based upon a particular packaging scheme, you probably can use that package directly. Here is a partial list: - Debian (.deb) based Freespire (the open and free version of Linspire), Knoppix, Xandros, Ubuntu (most popular distro because of promotion and subsidy by a multi millionaire), and Mepis. - Redhat (rpm) based CentOS, Fedora, PCLinuxOS - Slackware based Vector Linux (for low end machines) There are others, but quite honestly most seem to be the niche versions. Programs written for KDE (the Kool Desktop Environment most similar to MS Windows) or GNOME (the other main desktop environment which is more similar to the MAC), can work on either desktop. I understand that you can convert rpm packages to deb so that should help expand the choices. The main issue is bringing in the program you want, installing it, and insuring that any dependencies, such as other libraries or other programs are present that are needed to run the new program. Often it is much easier than MS OS if it is a common program already compiled in a depository. A simple command and it takes care of the whole thing with an internet download either through its own depository, or outside depositories known as the multiverse. Worst case situation would be to take the source code and compile it for your distro. I have never done it but I am sure many on this group have done it. The most surprising thing to me is this: the hams who are most oriented toward what I consider to be the adventure of ham radio (experimenting, trying new things, etc.), are also the hams who are moving toward Linux OS. It also appears that this could be drastically accelerated in the coming years. 73, Rick, KV9U o. wrote: Dear Rick; I am trying to go into LINUX. I very well understand your idea of using a cross platform interoperability. For the past weeks I have been following all LINUX-related subjects on this site. I have discovered that there are so many LINUX versions. Now a question arises here. Is any application written for one LINUX version capable of operating with another LINUX version? 15 years ago, I used to be a UNIX man. I never liked or used WINDOWS until I was forced to do so by the availabilty of applications. Since then I have discovered that I was right about not liking WINDOWS. It is not stable and it has so
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Hi That's my thought too! If the time and energy used on the development of the many version available were directed to only a few distro's, and make them more user friendly, i'm sure that everybody would benefit from it and more and more people migrate towards Linux. It certainly would help to have Ham software that anyone with little knowledge of Linux could install. Regards Sal CT2IRJ On 1/11/07, KV9U [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Omar, Windows has improved greatly with the XP version, but my preference would be an open product for the world rather than a proprietary product. The MS Vista version(s) looks as if there will be very little improvement although some in the security area as some operations may keep a separate root superuser as Linux and Unix have always done. My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem when it is a really serious problem for any demonstrations with a Live disk, etc. to people who use computers for practical work requiring high quality font display. I understand that it is possible to import the Windows fonts after you have loaded Linux although you really should own a copy of Windows OS to make that legal. I have tried many versions of Linux over the years and even had a two computer system for a while using a KVM switch. But I never tried importing the superior Windows fonts and lately have only been trying different live distros, none of which have had quality fonts and none of which can support my 22 widescreen monitor:( One of the other downsides to Linux is having literally hundreds, if not thousands, of versions. They call them distros, which is short for distributions, since it is packaging up various parts of the GNU/Linux OS and selecting certain packages to include as well as the windowing interface. Not only because it is so confusing for anyone interested in running Linux OS, but because it means that untold hours of work go into non-productive results:( Imagine if the energies and clever programming and packing would be focused on just a few versions!! Having said that, the Linux kernel is quite similar for all the versions of a similar date and so are the programs and Gnu libraries, etc, so the versions are much more similar than they are different. I wish we had one amateur radio version of Linux we could all agree on, but this is probably wishful thinking. The one thing that tends to separate the Linux versions is the packagement management for the programs. The most common are the RPM (Redhat Package Manager) and the DEB (Debian) packages. I lean more toward .deb due to certain characteristics where it is suppposed to be able to bring in all dependencies when you bring in a program from a depository. The depositories are maintained for many different distros and some have many thousands. Of course, many programs are included on the disk(s) you download or buy, but not so much for amateur radio:( If you have a distro based upon a particular packaging scheme, you probably can use that package directly. Here is a partial list: - Debian (.deb) based Freespire (the open and free version of Linspire), Knoppix, Xandros, Ubuntu (most popular distro because of promotion and subsidy by a multi millionaire), and Mepis. - Redhat (rpm) based CentOS, Fedora, PCLinuxOS - Slackware based Vector Linux (for low end machines) There are others, but quite honestly most seem to be the niche versions. Programs written for KDE (the Kool Desktop Environment most similar to MS Windows) or GNOME (the other main desktop environment which is more similar to the MAC), can work on either desktop. I understand that you can convert rpm packages to deb so that should help expand the choices. The main issue is bringing in the program you want, installing it, and insuring that any dependencies, such as other libraries or other programs are present that are needed to run the new program. Often it is much easier than MS OS if it is a common program already compiled in a depository. A simple command and it takes care of the whole thing with an internet download either through its own depository, or outside depositories known as the multiverse. Worst case situation would be to take the source code and compile it for your distro. I have never done it but I am sure many on this group have done it. The most surprising thing to me is this: the hams who are most oriented toward what I consider to be the adventure of ham radio (experimenting, trying new things, etc.), are also the hams who are moving toward Linux OS. It also appears that this could be drastically accelerated in the coming years. 73, Rick, KV9U o. wrote: Dear Rick; I am trying to go into LINUX. I very well understand your idea of using a cross platform interoperability. For the past weeks I have been following all LINUX-related subjects on this site. I have discovered that there are
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
Salomao Fresco wrote: Hi That's my thought too! If the time and energy used on the development of the many version available were directed to only a few distro's, and make them more user friendly, i'm sure that everybody would benefit from it and more and more people migrate towards Linux. Well, if someone doesn't like so many flavors... still could use BSD... just 4 flavors... and the same applications. Greetings, 73 de CM3NA
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3\Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Salomao Fresco Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:46 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? Hi That's my thought too! If the time and energy used on the development of the many version available were directed to only a few distro's, and make them more user friendly, i'm sure that everybody would benefit from it and more and more people migrate towards Linux. It certainly would help to have Ham software that anyone with little knowledge of Linux could install. Regards Sal CT2IRJ On 1/11/07, KV9U [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Omar, Windows has improved greatly with the XP version, but my preference would be an open product for the world rather than a proprietary product. The MS Vista version(s) looks as if there will be very little improvement although some in the security area as some operations may keep a separate root superuser as Linux and Unix have always done. My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem when it is a really serious problem for any demonstrations with a Live disk, etc. to people who use computers for practical work requiring high quality font display. I understand that it is possible to import the Windows fonts after you have loaded Linux although you really should own a copy of Windows OS to make that legal. I have tried many versions of Linux over the years and even had a two computer system for a while using a KVM switch. But I never tried importing the superior Windows fonts and lately have only been trying different live distros, none of which have had quality fonts and none of which can support my 22 widescreen monitor:( One of the other downsides to Linux is having literally hundreds, if not thousands, of versions. They call them distros, which is short for distributions, since it is packaging up various parts of the GNU/Linux OS and selecting certain packages to include as well as the windowing interface. Not only because it is so confusing for anyone interested in running Linux OS, but because it means that untold hours of work go into non-productive results:( Imagine if the energies and clever programming and packing would be focused on just a few versions!! Having said that, the Linux kernel is quite similar for all the versions of a similar date and so are the programs and Gnu libraries, etc, so the versions are much more similar than they are different. I wish we had one amateur radio version of Linux we could all agree on, but this is probably wishful thinking. The one thing that tends to separate the Linux versions is the packagement management for the programs. The most common are the RPM (Redhat Package Manager) and the DEB (Debian) packages. I lean more toward .deb due to certain characteristics where it is suppposed to be able to bring in all dependencies when you bring in a program from a depository. The depositories are maintained for many different distros and some have many thousands. Of course, many programs are included on the disk(s) you download or buy, but not so much for amateur radio:( If you have a distro based upon a particular packaging scheme, you probably can use that package directly. Here is a partial list: - Debian (.deb) based Freespire (the open and free version of Linspire), Knoppix, Xandros, Ubuntu (most popular distro because of promotion and subsidy by a multi millionaire), and Mepis. - Redhat (rpm) based CentOS, Fedora, PCLinuxOS - Slackware based Vector Linux (for low end machines) There are others, but quite honestly most seem to be the niche versions. Programs written for KDE (the Kool Desktop Environment most similar to MS Windows) or GNOME (the other main desktop environment which is more similar to the MAC), can work on either desktop. I understand that you
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA wrote: What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? By the way... Did someone know about any software for 2M equipment programming under Linux? 73 de CM3NA
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? By the way... Did someone know about any software for 2M equipment programming under Linux? 73 de CM3NA Depends on the equipment. I can program my Icom IC-Q7A 2/440 plus some low-sensitivity freqs on AM-BC and SW from Linux using TK7. I have seen some other Linux apps to program rigs. I believe that VXU handles the Yaesu FT-817, FT-857, and FT-897 rigs. I have the app but haven't had time to try it on my FT-897D. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
That is one of the reasons I dont get into Linux. I watched others, stressed out at school, trying to get systems operational and smoothed out. We need things to work at college, not there to be fiddled with, because students have only a certain amount of time to use systems, and expect them to work - especially in an educational atmosphere. Yes - Windows has its problems too, but once we find a solution with one, the rest pretty much fall into place too. The other thing has been mentioned - the availability of user programs. If it is written to do, it is written for windows, and once in a while they follow up with a Linux program - but not too often. Students expect us to always have the newest and bestest, since they are going onward to jobs, which will need those skills. Thus, we do have Linux available, but (maybe) not suprisingly, the majority do not take the classes. Thus also went our Macs. Just not enough of them wanted to learn Apple. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB all DX 2-6 years each . QSL LOTW-buro- direct As courtesy I upload to eQSL but if you use that - also pls upload to LOTW or hard card. moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk - Original Message - From: Ing. Nestor Alonso Torres [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software? DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA wrote: What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? By the way... Did someone know about any software for 2M equipment programming under Linux? 73 de CM3NA Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/622 - Release Date: 1/10/2007 2:52 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem when it is a really serious problem for any demonstrations with a Live disk, etc. to people who use computers for practical work requiring high quality font display. Have you looked at the newest release from Puppy, v 2.13? They made some significant improvements to the fonts. Also, for those who want plug-and-play there are a few Linux distros that will boot and run from a CD without touching one's HDD. Puppy will also boot from a floppy then run on a USB memory stick or CD and I thing a SD card and may even boot directly from a USB stick. My goal is to get Puppy to boot from a USB stick with some Ham and other apps on the stick -- it is already being done in corporate, small business, home and hobby venues so I know it can be done. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I think that for some, the fiddling may be OK. I have spent an unbelievable amount of time over the years on fiddling with C-64's, Apple //e, 286's up to Pentium IV's,with both software and hardware, as I am sure many others here have as well. One of the most difficult things I had to do a year or so ago was try and reload Windows 98 into an older machine (after using it for Vector Linux for a while with pretty good success), and give it to my mother who is in her 90's and had a 166 MHz box that was just not running well anymore so my 450 MHz box helped some. I was tempted to leave Linux on her system as all she really needed was to run a web browser but I didn't:( I was surprised how hard it is to obtain drivers for things such as newer monitors but I finally did get it loaded and she has been using it successfully for some time with Win 98. Thank goodness for the free AVG virus protection software system! I really think that there is going to be a sea change in the world. There are too many things happening, although very slowly yet, especially in third world countries where Linux is going to be the default OS whether people like it or not. And unless they are content to run older MS software (illegal, of course), they will likely find it far better to move to Linux as more technical expertise occurs and it becomes the defacto standard. There are not many programs that would be unavailable on Linux anymore. I was surprised when I came across this web site that has detailed the equivalents/replacements and analogs of Windows with Linux. Very interesting. Note where this is coming from too even though it is written in English: http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/table-eng.html With some ham radio software only being available now in Linux and not MS OS, the tables are somewhat turning. It will be years, of course, but there are literally billions of people who either can get an excellent product for no cost or minimal cost, or have to steal a product that not really any better and some would say worse in some cases, but has First World momentum. If UNIX had been available for $50 instead of $1000 back 20 years ago I doubt that MS would have succeeded in the marketplace. 73, Rick, KV9U Danny Douglas wrote: That is one of the reasons I dont get into Linux. I watched others, stressed out at school, trying to get systems operational and smoothed out. We need things to work at college, not there to be fiddled with, because students have only a certain amount of time to use systems, and expect them to work - especially in an educational atmosphere. Yes - Windows has its problems too, but once we find a solution with one, the rest pretty much fall into place too. The other thing has been mentioned - the availability of user programs. If it is written to do, it is written for windows, and once in a while they follow up with a Linux program - but not too often.
RE: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
If UNIX had been available for $50 instead of $1000 back 20 years ago I doubt that MS would have succeeded in the marketplace. This topic is probably more appropriate on Slashdot than on this Yahoo group, but Windows preeminence on the desktop has nothing to do with the operating system itself, or it's cost 20 years back. Windows command of the desktop stems directly from Microsoft's overwhelming dominance in applications such as word, powerpoint, and outlook. Microsoft achieved this application dominance by essentially giving away office with Windows, and thus making office ubiquitous. Word wasn't, and still isn't, the best word processor on the market. Rather, it bought market share until it drove several superior competing products out of the market. Heck, I didn't WANT to give up using Ami Pro (my word processing software of choice 12 years ago) -- I *had* to because all the business people with whom I communicated used Word... And Word was, afterall, available darn close to free (if not completely free) on Windows. Today, yeah... You COULD use Star Office -- it's ALMSOT fully compatible with Word and it's not half bad. But almost fully compatible won't typically cut it in the business world. And Linux *still* doesn't have a decent email/productivity application that rivals Outlook. Back to ham radio, I think the move from 32-bit computing to 64-bit computing is more likely trigger a move by hobbyist, small, independent, and community-based devs to Linux. This is because of Microsoft's ill-conceived security policies (in place for 64-bit Windows Vista and later) that requires things like drivers to be digitally signed using a certificate issued by a recognized certification authority. Acquiring such a certiciation from Verisign (one of the recognized authorities), for example, costs $500/year -- nothing for a large corporation, but a chunk of change for somebody who writes code in their spare time and gives it away to the ham radio community. If the smaller devs move to Linux, that means a lot of innovation will also move. It's already quite common in the industry to have bleeding edge software developed first on Linux and later ported to Windows. Things are changing. Will Linux be the answer? Only time will tell. de Peter K1PGV
Re: [digitalradio] Movement toward open digital software?
I First of all , I'm a dyed-in-the-wool windows user, and make no excuses for that. There are interesting parallels between linnux and windows users, and different users of ham radio.. On one hand you find those who are interested in operating, in communicating and making new contacts around the globe. These are also the folks who jump into ARES and SAR teams to provide support, function is the main interest of this type of operator, rather than the form.. success is the ability to communicate under adverse conditions, rather than the how of how it got there. Windows appeals to these folks since it is a relatively simple thing to use, and it works across a broad spectrum of programs. The other side of the equation are those who are very interested in the how and not so much in the why. These are folks who are concerned about the throughput, not the content. They can happily bury themselves in the technical knowledge and patience required to use linux, write endless lines of code and otherwise do all those things that would drive me as an operator crazy. Fortunately there is room for, and a need for both in the digital world., those to write the code and those of us who enjoy using new code and running it to it's limits. Microsoft became popular because it was the simplest tool around to get the job done. Not the most elegant, maybe not the most efficient, but it got the job done. And it was something that could be used with little or no technical training.The ease of operation led to microsoft's dominance in the marketplace with word, powerpoint, outlook and the like. Nothing else written in the early days could beat the ease with which these programs functioned. Microsoft did their market analysis very well and concentrated on software perceived as the greatest need, not obscure specialty graphics software that Apple got into, and built a reputation on. Just plain vanilla word and number crunching. IMHO, this KISS (Keep it simple,stupid) principle that microsoft adhered to would be something for linnux to examine, in order to survive beyond cult status my 2 cents John VE5MU -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/623 - Release Date: 1/11/2007 3:33 PM
