subject:"Re\: \[tdf\-discuss\] Do not support writing to OOXML format"


Hi Italo,


On 1/2/11 9:36 PM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:


What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
that information?


Developers will base their decisions on several information, and also 
on positive contribution by the community. Emails where people say 
that LibreOffice should not support a document format because it is 
backed by Microsoft or because is a Go-OO heritage are not a positive 
contribution.


In addition, there is a group of long time community members who have 
a clear idea about the future of the office suite. We have also issued 
a press release where we have disclosed the development path that 
makes very clear LibreOffice future directions.


Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto?



It should be very clear that software related requests coming from the 
community will be taken into consideration if they are positive and 
not against Microsoft or Oracle or any other corporation or entity. I 
think that this is quite a clear statement.



The other point is:
TDF "... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ..."
(TDF-Homesite)
and on the "Next Decade Manifesto: "... the home for our activities
should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ..."
How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it?


Democratic and meritocratic are not opposite.


And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.
I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle 
works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not 
meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.
But I shift this point to the time after the release of 3.3 to discuss 
it with more time in our hands.


TDF is a democracy based on merit, and merit is based on positive 
contributions. Shouting inside a mailing list is not a positive 
contribution, by any mean. TDF was not born to fight Microsoft, but to 
serve the user.


I think this is quite easy to understand, and I am really amazed by 
the number of people that still believe that promoting free software 
means bashing Microsoft. This shows a total lack of maturity.


Thanks for your answers.
I'll save it till after the release of 3.3,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli


On 1/3/11 12:48 AM, Carl Symons wrote:


Italo's statement of a philosophy of FOR is exactly right IMHO.


Thanks, this philosophy is the guiding principle of our marketing 
strategy. In Italy (I apologize for mentioning often what we have done 
here) we have got to the point of issuing a press release to 
congratulate Microsoft for the support of ODF. It has been one of the 
most successful press releases, and it has been instrumental in making 
the project more credible in the market.


Today, Italian media consider Associazione PLIO the real Microsoft 
competitor. If there is a face to face between Microsoft and OOo, we are 
invited to talk and Sun/Oracle is completely ignored. We have been 
featured on the largest Italian dailies with dedicated articles.



The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner
and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source
software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF.


Yes, although I would say that it has started in the wrong way, i.e. 
against Microsoft. The original idea was that we support Microsoft if we 
write OOXML, which is not only wrong but exactly the opposite of what 
happens in the reality.


Supporting OOXML makes LibreOffice stronger and TDF more credible, 
because we are not scared by interoperability (while Microsoft is and 
will always be scared by interoperability).


This is all I can say, and is already way too much for our beloved 
Microsoft lurkers.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Carl Symons

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jason Corfman  wrote:
> I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there
> is one thing that that I don't understand.
>
> Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
> format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
> Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
> open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
> standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
> inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.

The docx format is a scam in my view (read some of the links in the
original message of this thread for background on that opinion). Until
MS complies fully with the open standards, the only value of docx is
to subvert truly open software. This is a pattern in MS' behavior over
time. I don't like that in the US, computer science in high school
consists of Word and Excel training. But that's the way it is.

That said, I trust in the open community environment of LibreOffice.
The comments and clarifications from Italo Vignoli, Olivier Hallot,
Charles-H. Schulz (apologies if I missed anyone) from The Document
Foundation demonstrate a willingness to listen and guide LibO
development in a reasoned fashion. Even though I don't appreciate the
steps Microsoft took to get their file format approved by the
standards body, the fact is that it is approved (I realize that there
are nuances to that.) The Document Foundation faces a difficult task
bringing an open office suite into being. I was overjoyed to hear
about LibreOffice. It is a bold, risky adventure. It faces major
challenges.

Consequently, I defer to TDF's sensibility about this situation; I'll
support whatever they decide on this issue. The final chapters on
docx/OOXML have not been written. Italo's statement of a philosophy of
FOR is exactly right IMHO.

The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner
and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source
software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF.

To The Document Foundation, thank you. Thank you for starting this
project, for listening, for creating LibO in a meritocracy.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli


On 1/2/11 11:07 PM, Jason Corfman wrote:


Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.


Because common sense is definitely not common.


Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats
as possible, but that is just me.


No, it's me as well and many others who use common sense.

--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Jaime R. Garza

As many already said, OOXML r/w support is already there,  if you don't like
it, then develop a way to disable it. Someone already developed it, and
that's why it is there already.

Why can anyone think that they can remove any functionality that is already
there?

It is a pain in th a... to do the OOXML r/w support, but someone already did
it!!!

Why in God's name would is so bad on having it if it's already there?

I believe that any extra functionality that some one develops and actually
works, should be added to OSS, any OSS, and nothing should be banned just
because some religious extremists don't want to have it.

What you are proposing is like banning support for Fat32 or NTFS from
Linux!! Do you understand how crazy that would be

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli


On 1/2/11 9:36 PM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:


What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
that information?


Developers will base their decisions on several information, and also on 
positive contribution by the community. Emails where people say that 
LibreOffice should not support a document format because it is backed by 
Microsoft or because is a Go-OO heritage are not a positive contribution.


In addition, there is a group of long time community members who have a 
clear idea about the future of the office suite. We have also issued a 
press release where we have disclosed the development path that makes 
very clear LibreOffice future directions.


It should be very clear that software related requests coming from the 
community will be taken into consideration if they are positive and not 
against Microsoft or Oracle or any other corporation or entity. I think 
that this is quite a clear statement.



The other point is:
TDF "... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ..."
(TDF-Homesite)
and on the "Next Decade Manifesto: "... the home for our activities
should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ..."
How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it?


Democratic and meritocratic are not opposite. TDF is a democracy based 
on merit, and merit is based on positive contributions. Shouting inside 
a mailing list is not a positive contribution, by any mean. TDF was not 
born to fight Microsoft, but to serve the user.


I think this is quite easy to understand, and I am really amazed by the 
number of people that still believe that promoting free software means 
bashing Microsoft. This shows a total lack of maturity.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Jason Corfman

I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there
is one thing that that I don't understand.

Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.

Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats
as possible, but that is just me.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


Hi Andreas,

... Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:

Hi Andreas,


Hi Johannes, *,

(...)

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to
which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily
work. We need not another mega- thread on this list.

That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I
am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO.
And some is confusing.


not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors.


For me and many others from heaven.


In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about
programming are the task of the developers. Is this "The mission of the
ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes."
under the bylaws of TDF?
What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
that information?


Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not 
the time
to repeat anything.


But I have? How many hundreds of mails are this to find the right?
Sorry, that covers one of the problems. I've wrote it before: Some 
important information is not available in short time. The same as OOo ;-)



I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and steal
the time of other members of the community.


Thanks for the clearness ;-)
That means, you don't know it. Why don't you say that clearly, instead 
of such sideblows?



So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you 
can
do for the community and contribute.


I do what I can do in a situation with open important questions.
Look at my mails, I have not the time to repeat anything. Everything clear?

Greetings,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Andreas Mantke

Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> > Hi Johannes, *,
(...)
> > But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to
> > which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily
> > work. We need not another mega- thread on this list.
> 
> That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I
> am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO.
> And some is confusing.
> 

not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors.

> In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about
> programming are the task of the developers. Is this "The mission of the
> ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes."
> under the bylaws of TDF?
> What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
> that information?
> 

Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not 
the time 
to repeat anything. I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and 
steal 
the time of other members of the community.

So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you 
can 
do for the community and contribute.

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


Hi Andreas,

Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:

Hi Leif,


Dear Larry,
...

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because !

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.

I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants
to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.
Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the 
members.
The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing 
for LO
and the TDF.

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which 
community
(OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another 
mega-
thread on this list.


That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I 
am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. 
And some is confusing.


In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about 
programming are the task of the developers. Is this "The mission of the 
ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes." 
under the bylaws of TDF?
What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find 
that information?


The other point is:
TDF "... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ..." 
(TDF-Homesite)
and on the "Next Decade Manifesto: "... the home for our activities 
should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ..."

How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it?

Thanks,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Andreas Mantke

Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:
> Hi Leif,
> 
> > Dear Larry,
> > ...
> > 
> > I disagree with you of two reasons:
> > 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
> > code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
> > important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
> > open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
> > is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?
> > 
> > Nobody. Because !
> > 
> > We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
> > fine for us.
> 
> I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
> But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants
> to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.
> Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the 
members. 
The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing 
for LO 
and the TDF.

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which 
community 
(OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another 
mega-
thread on this list.

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


Hi Leif,

Dear Larry,
...

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because !

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.


I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants 
to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.

Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

Greetings,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread leif

Dear Larry,
First of all I want to apologize for my lack of English skills. I'm not
native English speaking so if the words are a little clumpsy, please
bear with me :-)

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because LibreOffice is free software!

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.

2) No matter what we say or do, there are two document standards
approved by ISO. I guess (!) that most of us engaged in the Document
Foundation can agree that two standards are one two many. Never the
less: OOXML is a standard.

If we decide not to support it we will see status quo in marked
situation: MS having 95+ % of the marked share. MS will claim that they
support both standards and we are not in the loop able to claim otherwise.

If we support OOXML (I don't say that we should hurry) we will be able
to take marked shares from MS and more important: We are in the loop! We
can speak up and tell ISO what is wrong with OOXML. we will be able to
find all the faults and we will be heard. We can talk to politicians
about the core problems because we are implementing it.

I my self are doing that right now. I have spoken to politicians and the
are listening to me - because we are implementing it. Because we are
actually getting working with it.

I am living in a country that has chosen two standards. By working with
it we can help other regions not to make the same mistake. But if we say
"we wil not this" and "we will not that" our only achievement will be
that nobody will listen to what we are saying.

Supporting OOXML is not supporting MS. It is exposing their dirty laundry!

We don't need to hurry! Of cause we must economize our resources and
supporting OOXML will never become our main focus. We have an office
suite to create ;-)


Cheers,
Leif



Den 30-12-2010 18:27, Larry Gusaas skrev:
> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary
> format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open
> source formats.
>
> See the following:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>
> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> LibreOffice.
>
>


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Marc Paré


Le 2011-01-01 17:19, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

On 01/01/2011 07:52 PM, Carl Symons wrote:


I clicked on the "list of events" link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30& 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.


I think you should discuss this on the US Marketing list, who is copied
on this answer.


If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.


Please use the US Marketing list instead of private emails. We are
trying to grow a US community and a marketing list is far better than
any other tool.



Thanks Italo. Yes, we are trying to grow the membership list which is 
still pretty thin. Hope to have more people joining in.


Marc


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread alan c


On 30/12/10 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary
 format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open
 source formats.

 See the following:
 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507

 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.



OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


However much I dislike the OOXML situation and also dislike the 
situation which exists of it being accepted by whatever means in ISO, 
it is a fact which exists. A distasteful one. This stage of the game 
was not won with our desired objectives, was it?


My objective is to do what I can to spread FLOSS and its use. There 
may be battles on the way, some battles will be lost some will be won. 
The objective is to win the war.


I am seeing a *lot* of interest from my friends and contacts in favour 
of FLOSS. However distasteful, the first or second question my friends 
always ask about FLOSS when considering to accept my help to convert 
(to say Ubuntu) is 'compatibility?'


I will use and support Libre O  as much as I possibly can, however I 
will resist the use of OOXML whenever I can, in situations of my own 
choosing, where I will not do damage to the cause of FLOSS.

--
alan cocks
Ubuntu user

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Matthew Copple

I disagree. LibreOffice isn't being developed as a political tool. It
is supposed to be useful in the modern office. Many of us have clients
and co-workers who use proprietary office formats, and we need to be
able to communicate with those folks. If I get an RFP in Office 10
format, I have to be able to read it and respond to it. If I have to
buy Office 10 to do it, then what reason have I to use LibreOffice (or
any free suite) in the first place?

Matthew Copple
mcop...@kcopensource.org

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>
> See the following:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>
> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> LibreOffice.
>
>
> --
> _
>
>
>     Larry I. Gusaas
>
> *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
> Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese *
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>



-- 
Matthew G. Copple
mcop...@kcopensource.org

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 1/1/2011 5:01 PM, James Wilde wrote:

On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format.
There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is
contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of
information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to
be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO
making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO.

There was a huge battle over that; docx and its siblings are MS's "Office Open XML" (OOXML) formats,
rushed through the ISO standards process with enormous still-existing problems. The standard was
split into two parts -- the "Transitional" piece of the specification purports to document the
implementation used since Office 2007, and the worst issues are in that part.

As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what. It's
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Wolf Halton

Yes. Take a stand for inclusivity. :-)
On Jan 1, 2011 6:02 PM, "James Wilde"  wrote:
>
> On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
> I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of
information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to
be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO
making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO.
>
> As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong.
>
> Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.
It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.
>
> //James
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread James Wilde


On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

> I will not support or use LibreOffice
> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. 
> There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is 
> contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
> 
I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of 
information.  For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to 
be MS's open document format.  I just thought it was the latest update to MSO 
making everyone update to keep abreast.  So much for my knowledge of MSO.

As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it.  Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of 
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.  It's 
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James
-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Italo Vignoli


On 01/01/2011 07:52 PM, Carl Symons wrote:


I clicked on the "list of events" link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30&  5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.


I think you should discuss this on the US Marketing list, who is copied 
on this answer.



If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.


Please use the US Marketing list instead of private emails. We are 
trying to grow a US community and a marketing list is far better than 
any other tool.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Carl Symons

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot
 wrote:

>
>> The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
>> discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
>> is driven by Novell too?
>>
>
> I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to any
> developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our code and
> endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join us and
> suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this was politely
> declined by Oracle).
>
> LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as Oracle
> engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a Novell shop. The
> Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF is better described
> in this page:
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/
>
> Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did.
>
> Kind regards
> --
> Olivier Hallot

Thank you, Olivier.

I clicked on the "list of events" link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30 & 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.

If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.

Carl

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Olivier Hallot


HI

Em 31-12-2010 17:45, Carl Symons escreveu:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:

On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:


On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown
wrote:


On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:


On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:




(snip)


As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".


Paul


They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
  Very eye opening.

Andy



You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?



I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to 
any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our 
code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join 
us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this 
was politely declined by Oracle).


LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as 
Oracle engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a 
Novell shop. The Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF 
is better described in this page:

http://www.documentfoundation.org/

Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did.

Kind regards
--
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation
Voicing the enterprise
Translation Leader for Brazilian Portuguese

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Ian Lynch

On 31 December 2010 17:04, Cor Nouws  wrote:

> Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14)
>
>  On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>>
>>> FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
>>> format for opening and saving documents now.
>>>
>>>
>> So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
>> has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've "fixed"
>> this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...
>>
>
> (No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, so
> here I go ;-) )
>
> MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF.
> In the mean time ODF evolves.
> Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is very
> little chance that there will be changes in the specs.
> Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been based
> on MS-implementations of formulae.
> So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF versions
> already.
> For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support for
> close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format plus
> that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would be
> impractical not to implement them.


Considering the opportunity cost of developing export filters against other
development priorities is certainly a valid consideration. Of course if it
is work sponsored by someone who would not spend it on anything else that
means there is no effective opportunity cost.

Best,
> Cor
>
> --
>  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>


-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Andy Brown  wrote:
> On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown 
>> wrote:
>
>>> Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
>>>  Very eye opening.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.
>>
>> The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
>> discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
>> is driven by Novell too?
>>
>
> What do you think?
>
> Andy
>

Good question...especially as thinking sometimes gets me in trouble.

Not being privy to the Novell sale goings-on, I don't know how the
Novell/Microsoft arrangement unfolded, how much or what of the
agreements (reported on the Groklaw link, first post) between MS and
Novell are still in place, or who would be bound by them.

Based on what I've read and the actions of people associated with The
Document Foundation, I think that they are operating from true open
source principles. Further, I think that the structures put in place
around LibreOffice support an open source community.

So, pretty much not knowing what I'm talking about, I think that
LibreOffice is a valuable project worth using, supporting, caring
about. I appreciate that the LO founders jumped off into the unknown
with it.

Carl

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown


On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
 Very eye opening.

Andy



You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?



What do you think?

Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:
> On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

 On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>
> The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
> If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
> request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
> And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML
> format...
>
 As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".


 Paul

>>> They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
>>> not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
>>> original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
>> go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.
>>
>
> Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
>  Very eye opening.
>
> Andy
>

You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Paul Gress


On 12/31/10 08:23 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.


Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 
2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML


And it's the ORACLE version as well.



I just installed OOo 3.2.1 in my Windows VBox and it didn't have a save as docx.  When you 
select "Help > About Openoffice.org" what version does it display?

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown


On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:

On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...


As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".


Paul


They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. 
 Very eye opening.


Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Craig A. Eddy

There are many times in which HTML doesn't translate correctly to a
recipient.  The lowest common denominator, then, is plain text.  That
being the case I habitually set my email reader to send in plain text.

Also, for one who uses gpg (or it's equivalent), even occasionally, the
encrypting and/or signing program automatically converts to plain text.

It isn't arrogance.  It's the need to meet the needs of the greatest
number of people.

On 12/31/2010 11:31 AM, Carl Symons wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad
>> manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's
>> bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML
>>
> 
> How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If
> that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy.
> 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:
> On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:
>>
>> On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>>>
>>> The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
>>> If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
>>> request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
>>> And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...
>>>
>>
>> As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
>> (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
> not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
> original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.
>
>

Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown


On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:


The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and 
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.

And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...



As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4 
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".



Paul



They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo 
does not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in 
the original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Mark Preston  wrote:
> If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-
>

Thank you for injecting sense into what had become entirely emotional
and irrational B^)

> A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
> and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
> should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
> same reasons.
>
> When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
> with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
> fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
> is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.
>
> It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
> formats. It can either:-
>
> 1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
> 2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
> 3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.
>
> The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
> which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
> It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
> adopted by Libre Office.
>
> The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
> not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
> pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.
>
> The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
> situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
> feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
> ones making efforts to read "incompatible" formats. I would suggest
> that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
> these formats.
>
> We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
> reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
> about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
> written documents and write them in the old "doc" format... while
> telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
> are prevented from using the Microsoft "open" standard. Given the work
> involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
> is the latter one.
>

Sincere thank you for a well-reasoned and clear analysis. Better minds
than mine can decide whether or not it's complete.

The idea of requesting a document in a readable format is also useful.
Thanks to whoever in this monster thread suggested that. For the most
part, I'm exchanging documents with acquaintances (so much for trying
this trick with a recruiter who wants Word). Talking with them about
file formats is simple.

There's another dynamic at play here. Microsoft is facing a situation
where markets with big potential are choosing open source. They have
discounted MS products to near nothing to gain footholds in some of
these markets. BRIC markets (as described by IMF and The Economist)
are seen as up-and-coming. These countries--Brazil, Russia, India,
China--are making or have already made commitments to open source.
This is not good news for Microsoft. These countries represent serious
market potential.

If LibreOffice and other open source projects continue to operate as
welcoming communities with other interests than profits and growth,
then they will prosper. Some underlying principles support open source
software. These principles should inform the way that this issue and
others are resolved. Microsoft is obligated to do whatever it can to
maximize return on investments. LibO and most other true open source
projects also have stakeholders--us--who seek a different kind of
return. I want quality software with a community of users who
cooperate, where I can contribute and appreciate the contributions of
others.

Thanks again, Mark. Your message has the kind of clear thinking that I
appreciate in the open source community.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Paul Gress


On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:


The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that 
they send it in another format, explaining why.
And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...



As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo 
rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".


Paul

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
 wrote:



> And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad
> manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's
> bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML
>

How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If
that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Paul Gress  wrote:
> On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote:
>>


 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507

>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups
>>  I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>>  LibreOffice.
>>
>> One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.
>>
>
> I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as "docx" and 3.3
> rc8 (3.3 m18) also doesn't support "docx" in save as.  What version are you
> using that supports docx?
>
>From standard Kubuntu 10.10 repositories...

OpenOffice.org 3.2.1
OOO320m19 (Build:9505)
ooo-build 3.2.1.4, Ubuntu package 1:3.2.1-7ubuntu1

Screenshot attached.


>
>
> Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea.  I've
> imported doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view
> properly, saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some
> different formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc.  I suspect
> docx will be worse.  I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo.
>  I will now promote them to Libreoffice.  I cannot move over myself as I use
> Solaris 11 Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port.
>
> --

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Wolf Halton

@rgb.mldc-  if your request for a document included a format type, you might
even include a link to LO as well. My copy of OO.o opens docx, so I can't
say docx is unreadable.  Everything I run is tweaked a little, so I am not a
standard use case.
There was a long thread on one of the Linux lists to which I subscribe of
the poor taste of hr recruiters who ask for.doc versions of an applicant's
resume on a linux-focused job board. Do you think an applicant would be
considered if they sent an odf instead?

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Wolf Halton

@svenki: it is nice to know the problems with conversion are minor.  The
situation here is that the company does not have any plans to convert. They
live in a brand-named world and are preparing students for going to work in
the usa.  My main point was echoed in other posts here, that it is poor
planning to cut functionality, if we have it, and we do, to open and save in
...x formats. I had forgotten about the "extensions off by default" aspect
of Windows installations, but that makes it that much harder for core users
who have no 'cause' to understand what we prize about open formats.
You are right, this is definitely a computer-literacy issue, and it is
clouded by how operating-system GUIs are constructed. We have been
developing OSes for years with an underlying notion that core users should
not have to understand what was actually happening when they clicked their
mouse. Developers have trained core users not to care about the underlying
structure.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Cor Nouws


Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14)

On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
format for opening and saving documents now.



So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've "fixed"
this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


(No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, 
so here I go ;-) )


MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF.
In the mean time ODF evolves.
Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is 
very little chance that there will be changes in the specs.
Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been 
based on MS-implementations of formulae.
So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF 
versions already.
For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support 
for close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format 
plus that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would 
be impractical not to implement them.


Best,
Cor

--
 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Cor Nouws


Hi Mark, all,

Mark Preston wrote (31-12-10 16:11)

If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-

A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
same reasons.

When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.

It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
formats. It can either:-

1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.

The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
adopted by Libre Office.

The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.

The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
ones making efforts to read "incompatible" formats. I would suggest
that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
these formats.

We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
written documents and write them in the old "doc" format... while
telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
are prevented from using the Microsoft "open" standard. Given the work
involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
is the latter one.


Thanks for the clear analyses.
And interesting discussion.

One thing I think that could be considered as well:
The choice seems to boil down to either:
 a- ignore saving in  OOXML, because supporting that would support the 
 non-open, MS dominated file format; or
 b- support saving in OOXML, because this enables users of LibreOffice 
to better cooperate with (part of the) people/organizations using MsO.


For the people that choose based on certain principles, a. seems the best.
For people that have to/want to work in a practical way, b. might be 
better, provided that the save-as-OOXML reaches a level where it is of 
practical use. If that is not the case, it is not more then window 
dressing that will leave users with a bad experience and again people 
pointing at the other application (LibO in this case) that does not 
support the file format properly.
Another side note: efforts spent to develop save-as-OOXML might have 
possible side effects for the save-as-DOC, I guess, since OOXML is 
partly based on the old binary format.


Indeed, not a clear a or b, but just some components for the frame to 
help making the choice.


How does that sound?

Best,
Cor


--
 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Steven Shelton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/30/2010 5:14 PM, BRM wrote:
> Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all.

[snip]

> ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF
> and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words,
> read support should be something that users must enable; Save
> support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an
> older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.

Ah . . .  so your solution is to make our application harder to use
than MS Office so that users will come to us instead of MS Office?

Interesting concept . . .

> We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF
> is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government
> level - which means in a few years most organizations that support
> governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after
> that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth.
> MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

In case you haven't noticed, the open source community isn't in a
position to "force" MS to do anything. And it never will be as long as
OS applications are aimed only at power users, with documentation that
is written in geek and features useful to a significant portion of
users that have to be manually turned on by the users. So far, OOo has
been really good about aiming at intermediate-level office users, and
it's easy enough for a lot of entry-level use. I would hope that LibO
would continue that trend. But as has already been pointed out, 90% of
office software users honestly don't care a thing about (or even know
about) file formats, open source v proprietary, or the politics of
software. All they want to know is: (1) How much does it cost? (2)
Does it do what I need it to do? (3) How easily does it do what I need
it to do? (4) Will I have to spend a ton of time retraining myself and
setting things up to get it to do what I need it to do?

Making LibO by default not read (or not be able to exchange) files
written in the format set by default by the market dominator because
of a philosophical or political stance is highly impractical and will
make the application less useful to end users . . . thus reducing your
own market share.  In other words: if you want to "stick it to
Microsoft", this is not the way to do it. All you are doing is making
their office suite more attractive than ours.

- -- 
Steven Shelton
Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk0eA4wACgkQO+AD2HqgRoDs2QCgvr7OFlkLAj7c/VAfYr2a9MKl
hkUAnA8m9Tuo0AFyFqgpIVewRj+pWmZB
=wKrG
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Mark Preston

If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-

A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
same reasons.

When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.

It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
formats. It can either:-

1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.

The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
adopted by Libre Office.

The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.

The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
ones making efforts to read "incompatible" formats. I would suggest
that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
these formats.

We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
written documents and write them in the old "doc" format... while
telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
are prevented from using the Microsoft "open" standard. Given the work
involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
is the latter one.


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Italo Vignoli


Sorry for stepping in so late in the discussion.

I have seen many messages, but they all miss the key issue: 
interoperability.


TDF is FOR interoperability, which is a user (and a market) need.

TDF is not AGAINST Microsoft, although many of its founding members - 
including myself - have been strong opponents of OOXML during the 
standardization process.


We have worked inside committeees in order to improve OOXML, or - if you 
prefer - to make is a less flawed standard.


TDF is FOR ODF, and being FOR ODF in a "strong" way means that you do 
not support OOXML (but not to the point of creating problems to users 
wanting to save in a specific document format).


Of course, TDF is also a member of OpenDoc Society (announcement in 
early January) and is represented at the highest level inside OASIS. 
Inside these bodies, TDF will fight FOR making ODF a successful document 
standard over OOXML.


I would really like to handle the negative attitude to Oracle and the 
OOo community. If you share the idea of being AGAINST Microsoft, TDF and 
users, then we are happy if you choose the OOo community.


Happy 2011 to everyone. Ciao, Italo

--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread sophie


Hi,
On 31/12/2010 16:27, RGB ES wrote:

It says oracle ("based on oracle" to be precise) because most of the
code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not
hurt...
Both of you are right. In fact, it's the official version plus some 
go-oo patches. So you get a mix of the two versions (that brings a lot 
of bugs unfortunately).


Kind regards
Sophie


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES

It says oracle ("based on oracle" to be precise) because most of the
code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not
hurt...

2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker :
> On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote:
>>
>> Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) "OOo" is go-oo, not
>> oracle's OOo.
>>
>>
>
> So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Ian Lynch

On 30 December 2010 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

> On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>>
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
>>  OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
> by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid



And if LibO does not support export to the latest versions of MS Office many
governments and businesses will be less likely to adopt it. Overall that
would be bad for odf. Once odf is in majority use yo can start dictating de
facto standards.


-- 
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>



-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote:

Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) "OOo" is go-oo, not oracle's OOo.




So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option 
of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's 
not OOXML


And it's the ORACLE version as well.

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES

Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) "OOo" is go-oo, not oracle's OOo.

2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker :
> On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:
>>
>> As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
>> 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
>> formats.
>> Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
>> support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
>> 3.4.
>>
> Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of
> Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not
> OOXML
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of 
Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not 
OOXML


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES

2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker :
> And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...
As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file 
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary 
format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open 
source formats.


See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507 


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I 
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to 
LibreOffice.




The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and 
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.

And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF 
format for opening and saving documents now.




So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents 
has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've "fixed" 
this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Sveinn í Felli


Þann fös 31.des 2010 01:28, skrifaði Wolf Halton:

I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
formatting these users do is adding a page number.
The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
set-up.

If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
don't care about these format battles.

If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
from the "let's get them before they get us" vibe in this thread is going to
work how we want.

Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
enough, or if we are the providers of those services.

Wolf Halton



Couple of things here:

I've been working on a fairly big Win/MSO --> LTSP-*buntu/OOo conversion 
in a 1500+ users school environment. So far it's been without major 
hiccups, you only have to repeat and tell each individual that OOo 
really CAN open .docx (provided one saves it first from the webmail 
client to the home directory or any other writable location) and that 
OOo CAN save the resulting file in .doc for further processing at home. 
This is primarily a 'computer literacy' problem and maybe setup of mail 
clients.
While you're at it one can also mention the ODF-plugin for their copy of 
MSO :-)


The main problem has been formulas in MSO-2007. Apparently there are two 
ways of entering formulas; one consists of using MSO Equation Editor 
which apparently renders/saves aproximately correct MathML. The other 
(default) way is direct insertion via MSO Equation, wihch is not even 
readable by MSO-2003 (only as a bitmap). If this could be adressed, many 
institutions/schools would have better time while changing sides.


Apparently some (rare) equations don't transpose correctly to Calc, and 
some exotic .ppt transforms don't translate correctly to Impress. But 
first of all are the macros which give problems. Probably there will 
never be a perfect automatic way for converting those, I see it rather 
as a business opportunity for VBA/macro gurus.


But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting 
.doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the 
conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on 
most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar 
format is an issue for many I've heard from.


Just thoughts.

Sveinn í Felli

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 30/12/10 21:07, Carl Symons wrote:


Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
their MS application.
Two comments on that. OOXML documents could contain more formatting 
options than the old style MS Office documents, which would be lost of 
you saved it in a prior format, and secondly, if someone sends you a 
document in a certain format, then it's arrogant of you to return it in 
a DIFFERENT format, however much you dislike the format the sender used.
That's why email clients reply to messages in the same format in which 
they were received.


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 30/12/10 20:23, RGB ES wrote:

2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker:

OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
for a while, I think...

That's not the point. Many users of MS Office don't know how , or can't 
be bothered, to change the default document format from OOXML back to 
previous format, especially as Windows 7 (by default) does NOT show the 
file extension, so users don't even KNOW they are using OOXML. (I have 
personal experience of this from Users I "support"). Therefore the use 
of OOXML will spread insidiously as the take up of Office 2010 
(particularly) and Windows 7 speeds up. And I'm afraid there is nothing 
that can be done to stop this as MS Office almost completely dominates 
the Office suite world, particularly in corporate environments.
And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad 
manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like 
it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Jonathan Aquilina

FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF 
format for opening and saving documents now.


On 12/31/10 1:12 AM, BRM wrote:

- Original Message 


From: Barbara Duprey


We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is

quickly

becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means

in a

few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support

ODF

too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those

organizations,

and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time

before

OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing
files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon
discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF
implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I
think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard
implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically proprietary)
version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about
everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave
everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS,  which can then simply do
as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room.
Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS implementation,
making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly
pessimistic here?


True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it
is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only
supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office
2003 and possibly earlier versions too.

However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the
normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO
refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a
rather broken manner.

However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens
of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.

For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote
the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while
writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else
write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces.
Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I
think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they
were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely,
I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be
easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.

Ben





--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Paul Gress


On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote:




http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
  LibreOffice.

One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.



I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as "docx" and 3.3 rc8 (3.3 m18) 
also doesn't support "docx" in save as.  What version are you using that supports docx?



Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea.  I've imported 
doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view properly, 
saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some different 
formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc.  I suspect docx will be 
worse.  I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo.  I will now 
promote them to Libreoffice.  I cannot move over myself as I use Solaris 11 
Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port.

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Wolf Halton

I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
formatting these users do is adding a page number.
The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
set-up.

If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
don't care about these format battles.

If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
from the "let's get them before they get us" vibe in this thread is going to
work how we want.

Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
enough, or if we are the providers of those services.

Wolf Halton

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:14 PM, BRM  wrote:
several thread entries truncated

>> >>
>> >> I will not support  or use LibreOffice
>> >>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
>> >> format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format.
> To
>> >> do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
>> >>
>> >> See the  following:
>> >>
>> >>
>>http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>>
>> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>> >>
>> >> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
>> >> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> >>  LibreOffice.

One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.

>
> Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone 
> supporting
> ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other
> formats - as third party as possible.
> In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save
> support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS
> format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
> We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
> becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in 
> a
> few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
> too, and a few years after that organizations that support those 
> organizations,
> and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
> before
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

As another writer has pointed out, forcing MS in these ways is
self-defeating. MS is not going to be forced in any direction. MS
managers are going to fulfill their legal obligation...make money,
enrich investors. LibO & TDF do not have this requirement. Attempts to
make things difficult for MS will really only make things difficult
for those people who are "required" to use MS products. Many of those
users don't have a choice. It is not appropriate to bruise users in
order to teach MS a lesson...a lesson that they probably won't learn
anyway.

A key point here needs amplification. As a USA citizen (even in
Washington State, up the road from Redmond) and an open source
community participant, my view is probably warped...I think that MS
has gone over the line of propriety many times with almost no adverse
consequence. They operate as a de facto monopoly. The US regulatory
agencies have done little to curb this anti-social behavior. To people
who live in another countries, I can only imagine how this behavior
appears. Surveys and anecdotes indicate that computer users in other
countries than the USA report software to be a sovereignty issue. LibO
has an international scope. Governments (Russia recently for example)
are moving to LibO and other open source applications to remove
themselves from the MS hegemony.

Reading a range of formats and offering the ability to save in a range
of formats is generous and supportive of the little person user. Going
along with MS' efforts to destroy the open document format does not,
in the end, support the little person user. MS has a near monopoly;
they use it to the greatest extent possible. The ultimate result of
unethical monopoly behavior is that the monopolist's products drive
other products out. There is no valid reason for aiding MS' efforts to
damage open source.

>
> The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
> many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
> After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?
>

No, just because MS does it doesn't make it right. They are using
their market power unfairly. If LibreOffice focuses on serving users
generously, then _reading_ OOXML documents fits. Writing or saving as
OOXML only damages open source applications; there is no benefit to
users (as long as documents can be saved in a legitimate way). OOXML
is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

> Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations 
> as
> to why.
>
> Ben
>
> P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
> P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
> default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
> standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.
>

When somebody buys a new version of Office, their default save format
is docx. I've worked with less sophisticated users who get a new
computer and new Office to work from home. They can't understand why
their teachers (running earlier Office versions) can't open their
file. This is a bad deal that MS has foisted on people.

It is not necessary to make them pay for this bad behavior...it
wouldn't make much difference. But we shouldn't be accomplices to
their crime.

Carl

-

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Andy Brown


On Thu Dec 30 2010 12:19:55 GMT-0800 (PST)  Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format 
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid




If M$ were to use the proper standard then I would have no problem with 
the OOXML usage.  The problem comes in when M$ uses their version 
instead of the standard, (see 
http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx ). 
Reading the OPs links and following links from the different post leads 
to far more interesting reading.  It is funny that the Sun plugin for 
MSO had better support for ODF than the built-in support from M$.  M$ 
has no interest in any open format standard so they do everything, 
including sabotage to do away with them.


My 2cents.

Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM

- Original Message 

> From: Barbara Duprey 
> 
> > We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is 
>quickly
> > becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means 
>in a
> > few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support 
>ODF
> > too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those 
>organizations,
> > and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
>before
> > OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
> 
> Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing 
>files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will 
>soon 
>discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF 
>implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I 
>think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard 
>implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically 
>proprietary) 
>version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about 
>everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave 
>everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS,  which can then simply 
>do 
>as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room. 
>Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS 
>implementation, 
>making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly 
>pessimistic here?
> 

True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it 
is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it 
only 
supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office 
2003 and possibly earlier versions too.

However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the 
normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through 
ISO 
refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a 
rather broken manner.

However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens 
of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.

For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote 
the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while 
writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else 
write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces. 
Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I 
think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be 
they 
were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. 
Conversely, 
I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be 
easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 12/30/2010 4:14 PM, BRM wrote:

- Original Message

We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a
few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations,
and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF
extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is
not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not
just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation
and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as
part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to
leave everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases
with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be
charged against the non-MS implementation, making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I
being unduly pessimistic here?

The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as
to why.

Ben

P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational
standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults.

It looks as if the general opinion here is that reading OOXML is a good idea, and writing it is not.
I agree.

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM

- Original Message 

> From: BRM 
> > 
> > Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had  trouble with this docx 
fraud.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps LibO and all other Open  Source projects - and perhaps anyone 
>supporting 
>
> ODF for that matter - should  treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other 
> formats - as third party as  possible.
> In other words, read support should be something that users must  enable; 
> Save 

> support should not be possible - it must be converted to either  an older MS 
> format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
> We need to force MS to support  ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is 
> quickly 
>
> becoming the world standard  at least at the government level - which means 
> in 
>a 
>
> few years most  organizations that support governments will need to support 
> ODF 
>
> too, and a  few years after that organizations that support those 
>organizations, 
>
> and so  forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
>before 
>
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
> 
> The idea of  LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so 
> many other  formats to get people to convert to their formats.
> After all, what's good for  the goose is good for the gander, no?
> 
> Of course, all functionality should  be dually advertised - with explanations 
>as 
>
> to why.
> 

Oh, and one other point - why risk the legal liability?
Even ISO OOXML is burdened by licensing issues; but then again - MS continues 
to 
not support ISO OOXML and instead use their own 'enhanced' version which 
probably has far more legal liabilities than ISO OOXML.

And while MS Office has moved on to newer versions of OOXML, ISO OOXML has not 
been updated - I'm not even sure Alex Brown pays attention to it any more as he 
seems to just be nit-picking ODF at the moment (see his posts on the ODF Office 
Comments list).

$0.02 USD

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM

- Original Message 

> From: Carl Symons 
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 3:47:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
> 
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
>  wrote:
> > On  30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>
> >> I will not support  or use LibreOffice
> >>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
> >> format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format. 
To
> >> do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
> >>
> >> See the  following:
> >>
> >>  
>http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>
> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
> >>
> >> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
> >> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> >>  LibreOffice.
> >>
> >>
> > OOXML will spread anyway because MS  Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> > default. Nothing you can do  about it I'm afraid
> >
> 
> MS may create documents in OOXML by  default. LibO can read them too.
> 
> Larry Gusaas' original point was to  avoid helping MS with this
> anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS  "...spread OOXML by enabling
> writing in this file format..." In other words,  make it so that LibO
> can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this  format.
> Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not  their
> fake "open" format. It is not open. The intent of this fake  file
> format is to damage open software applications.

Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all.

> It is similar to  what they did with web standards, their own special
> Java, their own special  C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
> accepted as an ISO open standard.  Truly open applications shouldn't go
> along with this scam. MS has suffered  very little for their bad
> behavior.
> 
> Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.
> 

Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting 
ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other 
formats - as third party as possible.
In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save 
support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS 
format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly 
becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a 
few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF 
too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, 
and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before 
OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so 
many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as 
to why.

Ben

P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by  
default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational 
standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Steven Shelton
 wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
>> file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
>> proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
>> ODF and open source formats.
>
> On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
> wrongs make a right?

No that is not what MS does. MS reads & writes in proprietary formats.
They do not support open source formats. LibO should read any format
and have the ability to write in proprietary formats. It should not
write in proprietary formats masquerading as open formats. LibO should
not go along with MS' chicanery. LibO is not engaging in deceptive
practices.

I thought the idea behind this particular office
> suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
> why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
> use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
> are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
> by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
> to buy MS products.
>
> - --
> Steven Shelton

Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
their MS application. By sending a .docx file, the only thing
accomplished is that MS has weakened open source.

People can still exchange files in MS formats. The other user will
still be able to use their MS applications. Not allowing docx _write_
ensures that MS nefarious scheme has been weakened. Other than that,
no effect.

If the LibO community doesn't take a stand on this issue, who else
will? Simply put, MS is doing false advertising. Do you think that the
FTC is gonna do anything about it? Not a prayer. MS has their cover
with the Standards Committee decision. And how likely is it that some
U.S. CongressCritter would allow the FTC to take action anyway?

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
 wrote:
> On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>>
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid
>

MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too.

Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this
anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS "...spread OOXML by enabling
writing in this file format..." In other words, make it so that LibO
can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format.
Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their
fake "open" format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file
format is to damage open software applications.

It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special
Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go
along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad
behavior.

Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.

Read the links in Larry Gusaas' original message in this thread. This
is what the open community is up against. We don't have to go along
with it.

By the way, there is nothing inherently wrong with what MS is doing
here. The U.S. system rewards corporations that flirt with the
boundaries of legality. The Standards Committee went along with this,
and the U.S. hapless regulatory system can't/won't come to the rescue.
It is up to the open community to deal with it. Don't make it possible
for an open application to write in a file format that seeks to damage
it.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Steven Shelton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> I will not support or use LibreOffice
> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
> file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
> proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
> ODF and open source formats.

On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office
suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
to buy MS products.

- -- 
Steven Shelton
Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk0c6CIACgkQO+AD2HqgRoAFmACeJfN63kpY0scYYf4nh9HI6M3d
m18AoMuiy7TqhzLg8pxuMEch0eDp2nKD
=Lj+L
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread RGB ES

2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker :
> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid
>

That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
for a while, I think...

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread RGB ES

"open"xml is a really bad thing for the community. It was a shame its
approval by iso, specially if we consider there was no working
implementation of it (not even msoffice support that "standard"!!) By
implementing this format on LibO we are not helping to improve the
(absurd myth of) "interoperativity": we are only helping M$ to have an
excuse (the only possible one: an independent implementation!) for the
existence of those formats.
To load those formats is OK if the file will be converted to ODF. To
load those files in order save again on that absurd "standard" is a
really wrong move.
There is one thing that it is now more important than an opensource
office suite, and that thing is a really open standard about file
formats. We must protect ODF! Giving life support to ooxml is exactly
on the opposite direction of that goal.
Just my 2¢

2010/12/30 Carl Symons :
> I support Larry's position.
>
> Carl Symons
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
>> --
>> _
>>
>>
>>     Larry I. Gusaas
>>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file 
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary 
format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open 
source formats.


See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507 


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I 
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to 
LibreOffice.



OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format 
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format