Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Albert,

Albert Palacios wrote:
> The themes only work if they are pixel-based and do not change the
> spacing or positioning of the elements, meaning you have a 90s
> application with condensed elements and background textures, whereas now
> the trend is towards spaced elements, flat colors, rounded contours, and
> transparencies (yes, I know that for transparency you need a suitable
> compositor...).

there is some truth in this. Certain GUI parts are inflexible. Even if
thinking of the standard theme, we are unable to change properly the
elements.


I have an old iBook, it has a big but low-resolution 800x600 screen.
Next a ThinkPad with a Hi-Res (even if not really "Retina") display. The
menus and decorations compared almost double in size.

We currently don't properly "scale" elements. I want to be able to use a
bigger font in menus and look the same. Windows does this quite well!

Fixing that would help making things more dynamic also for themes.

Riccardo

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Bruce,

bruce wrote:

> 
> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.

You can use GNUstep libraries in two ways.
The first, is like gtk for Xfce or GNOME: as part of an environment. If
you use GWorkspace, Terminal, Ink, GNUMail, they all fit together. It is
a disconnect from another system, but fits. You may like or not like the
look.. and we can discuss forever [*]. Personally, I love it and given
the horrible look of windows 10, I think we are better! Also here a
theme puts everything smooth, we have some wondeful examples which bring
you to a close Mac experience.

Then you can use GNUstep but want to use another environment. There you
need a theme that changes the look. Here you need specific theme, e.g. a
windows, GTK, or even a "gnome" theme.

If you use a QT application in XFCE it looks out of place, if somebody
didn't do some smoothing with themes which may have been done for you by
the linux distribution.

Of course, it is all work in progress, this is open source.

Another important thing is exploring dbus or similar, to work with
unified toolbars and events. There was work in the past, but it stalled.




Riccardo






[*] De gustibus non est disputandum.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Bruce,

bruce wrote:
> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
> you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low.
> Nothing I say about linux gui affects windows.

the standard on windows is to treat it like a backend. We use old win32
to draw. This is very convenient because it is good old plain C and
works well with MinGW(2). We are still compatible with Windows 2000...
Window decorations are native, the rest is drawn. Very compatible. There
you can use all "system agnostic" themes, including some fake windows
themes. It is the most stable solution.

Or on any system you can also install themes which use a native toolkit,
which on windows is WinUX Theme. It uses native menus, buttons and
simulates some details. Looks quite nice.
For me, it has some minor issues which I was unable to fix, or we would
have made a release. I use it for a specific enterprise application. It
has also some strange stability issues where Windows "looses" the DLL
somehow and decoration drawing reverts. On Win7 it is very apparent,
since you loose transparency suddenly.

If you can help... welcome :)

Riccardo

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Gregory Casamento wrote:
> This is our fault because our documentation has been woefully out of
> date due to issues with autogsdoc (our tool for documentation
> generation).   Also, the documentation is kind of in an obscure place,
> so it's no wonder you missed it.  For future reference it is here...

off-topic from the theme, but part of the discussion. Richard and I
worked a lot on the documentation side, fixing autogsdoc and comments.
Not perfect, but the next doc iteration will be much more complete.

Then, as with the website itself, form is one thing, content is the
other. If methods have no documentation written, autogsdoc won't
magically create it you beyond the simple declaration.

Riccardo

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

I completely understand.

Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings


On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 16:10 bruce  wrote:

> You are misunderstanding my point. I have stock and deep connections at
> microsoft. I don't want to mess anything up for anyone. If you were making
> your own windows on windows, I don't want to see the code, remark that it
> should work this way  Low probability of anything ever happening, but
> risk nonetheless. For both sides.
>
> When I left my employer and talked to a lawyer, he said that the ndas
> lasts as long as the revenue, and beware, loose lips sink ships. My family
> benefits from that revenue.
>
> btw - I also wait for the walk signal, I've never been oppressed, and have
> no problem with the nda. I was well paid, put the kids through school, and
> paid all their medical expenses.
>
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 8:45 PM Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> How would using any operating system you like let them down?  Or even
>> using whatever api?   I imagine it has something to do with GNUstep having
>> some connection with Apple, right?
>>
>> Look at it this way.  GNUstep is trying to free the masses from the
>> tyranny of our Jobsian oppressors.  Does that help?  ;)
>>
>> Gregory Casamento
>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 bruce  wrote:
>>
>>> No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down.
>>> Family comes first
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento <
>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Bruce,

 On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce 
 wrote:

> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But
> if you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low.
> Nothing I say about linux gui affects windows.
>

 Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I
 got that quote from, I don't remember.   You can either use
 GNUstep's own GUI or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows.
 The theme uses WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native
 theming framework.

 You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore,
> and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there,
> so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few 
> days.
>

 And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within
 your chosen profession?  Windows does not comprise the entire computing
 ecosystem.  It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the
 industry as a whole.  Linux rules the server space in spite of what
 Microsoft might want you to believe.

 Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a
> clean repro and file a bug in github.
>

 Sweet, I am looking forward to that.  Also... just so you know, myself
 and Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of
 interesting issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw.
 Sometime between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem
 a shot and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so,
 maybe we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.

 Yours, GC



> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at
>>> pictures of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and
>>> modern, and native.
>>>
>>> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
>>> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
>>> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
>>> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
>>> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>>>
>>
>> This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on
>> Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I,
>> personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation
>> to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.
>>
>> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter
>>> - ask any mac user. I can see if 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

You are misunderstanding my point. I have stock and deep connections at
microsoft. I don't want to mess anything up for anyone. If you were making
your own windows on windows, I don't want to see the code, remark that it
should work this way  Low probability of anything ever happening, but
risk nonetheless. For both sides.

When I left my employer and talked to a lawyer, he said that the ndas lasts
as long as the revenue, and beware, loose lips sink ships. My family
benefits from that revenue.

btw - I also wait for the walk signal, I've never been oppressed, and have
no problem with the nda. I was well paid, put the kids through school, and
paid all their medical expenses.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 8:45 PM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> How would using any operating system you like let them down?  Or even
> using whatever api?   I imagine it has something to do with GNUstep having
> some connection with Apple, right?
>
> Look at it this way.  GNUstep is trying to free the masses from the
> tyranny of our Jobsian oppressors.  Does that help?  ;)
>
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 bruce  wrote:
>
>> No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down.
>> Family comes first
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
 you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I
 say about linux gui affects windows.

>>>
>>> Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I
>>> got that quote from, I don't remember.   You can either use
>>> GNUstep's own GUI or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows.
>>> The theme uses WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native
>>> theming framework.
>>>
>>> You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore,
 and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there,
 so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few 
 days.

>>>
>>> And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within
>>> your chosen profession?  Windows does not comprise the entire computing
>>> ecosystem.  It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the
>>> industry as a whole.  Linux rules the server space in spite of what
>>> Microsoft might want you to believe.
>>>
>>> Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a
 clean repro and file a bug in github.

>>>
>>> Sweet, I am looking forward to that.  Also... just so you know, myself
>>> and Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of
>>> interesting issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw.
>>> Sometime between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem
>>> a shot and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so,
>>> maybe we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.
>>>
>>> Yours, GC
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <
 greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at
>> pictures of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and
>> modern, and native.
>>
>> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
>> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
>> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
>> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
>> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>>
>
> This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on
> Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I,
> personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation
> to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.
>
> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter -
>> ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for
>> other users, it is often a non-starter.
>>
>> My experience has been:
>>
>>-
>>
>>Wow this is cool
>>-
>>
>>Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
>>
>>
> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>
>
>>
>>-
>>
>>Wow this looks old
>>-
>>
>>Wow this is hard to use
>>
>>
> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

How would using any operating system you like let them down?  Or even using
whatever api?   I imagine it has something to do with GNUstep having some
connection with Apple, right?

Look at it this way.  GNUstep is trying to free the masses from the tyranny
of our Jobsian oppressors.  Does that help?  ;)

Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings


On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 bruce  wrote:

> No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down.
> Family comes first
>
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento 
> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
>>> you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I
>>> say about linux gui affects windows.
>>>
>>
>> Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I
>> got that quote from, I don't remember.   You can either use
>> GNUstep's own GUI or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows.
>> The theme uses WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native
>> theming framework.
>>
>> You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore,
>>> and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there,
>>> so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few days.
>>>
>>
>> And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within your
>> chosen profession?  Windows does not comprise the entire computing
>> ecosystem.  It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the
>> industry as a whole.  Linux rules the server space in spite of what
>> Microsoft might want you to believe.
>>
>> Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a clean
>>> repro and file a bug in github.
>>>
>>
>> Sweet, I am looking forward to that.  Also... just so you know, myself
>> and Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of
>> interesting issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw.
>> Sometime between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem
>> a shot and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so,
>> maybe we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.
>>
>> Yours, GC
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <
>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Bruce,

 On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
 wrote:

> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures
> of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
> native.
>
> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>

 This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on
 Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I,
 personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation
 to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.

 Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter -
> ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for
> other users, it is often a non-starter.
>
> My experience has been:
>
>-
>
>Wow this is cool
>-
>
>Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
>
>
 WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.


>
>-
>
>Wow this looks old
>-
>
>Wow this is hard to use
>
>
 WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.


>
>-
>
>Install something else
>
>
> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
> awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
> the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
> complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
> computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
> not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
> So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.
>

 GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough
 to be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen.  The
 community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in
 everywhere.  Also, 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down.
Family comes first

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
>> you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I
>> say about linux gui affects windows.
>>
>
> Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I got
> that quote from, I don't remember.   You can either use GNUstep's own GUI
> or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows.  The theme uses
> WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native theming framework.
>
> You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore,
>> and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there,
>> so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few days.
>>
>
> And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within your
> chosen profession?  Windows does not comprise the entire computing
> ecosystem.  It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the
> industry as a whole.  Linux rules the server space in spite of what
> Microsoft might want you to believe.
>
> Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a clean
>> repro and file a bug in github.
>>
>
> Sweet, I am looking forward to that.  Also... just so you know, myself and
> Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of interesting
> issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw.  Sometime
> between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem a shot
> and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so, maybe
> we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.
>
> Yours, GC
>
>
>
>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <
>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures
 of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
 native.

 My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
 brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
 most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
 desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
 mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.

>>>
>>> This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on
>>> Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I,
>>> personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation
>>> to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.
>>>
>>> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter -
 ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for
 other users, it is often a non-starter.

 My experience has been:

-

Wow this is cool
-

Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches


>>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>>>
>>>

-

Wow this looks old
-

Wow this is hard to use


>>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>>>
>>>

-

Install something else


 But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
 awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
 the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
 complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
 computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
 not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
 So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.

>>>
>>> GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough
>>> to be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen.  The
>>> community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in
>>> everywhere.  Also, it is difficult when we are only a few people working on
>>> a large project such as this.   The point is... help us, I know you have
>>> told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute directly, but
>>> writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is something you CAN
>>> do.
>>>
>>> You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're seeing
>>> in the places I have asked you to do so.
>>>
>>> GC
>>>
>>>
>>>



 On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola <
 riccardo.mott...@libero.it> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> bruce wrote:
> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux
> repo. I
> > couldn't get it to work, but it 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Bruce,

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce  wrote:

> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
> you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I
> say about linux gui affects windows.
>

Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I got
that quote from, I don't remember.   You can either use GNUstep's own GUI
or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows.  The theme uses
WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native theming framework.

You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore, and
> I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there, so
> microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few days.
>

And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within your
chosen profession?  Windows does not comprise the entire computing
ecosystem.  It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the
industry as a whole.  Linux rules the server space in spite of what
Microsoft might want you to believe.

Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a clean
> repro and file a bug in github.
>

Sweet, I am looking forward to that.  Also... just so you know, myself and
Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of interesting
issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw.  Sometime
between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem a shot
and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so, maybe
we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.

Yours, GC



> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures
>>> of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
>>> native.
>>>
>>> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
>>> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
>>> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
>>> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
>>> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>>>
>>
>> This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on
>> Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I,
>> personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation
>> to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.
>>
>> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter -
>>> ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for
>>> other users, it is often a non-starter.
>>>
>>> My experience has been:
>>>
>>>-
>>>
>>>Wow this is cool
>>>-
>>>
>>>Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
>>>
>>>
>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>-
>>>
>>>Wow this looks old
>>>-
>>>
>>>Wow this is hard to use
>>>
>>>
>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>-
>>>
>>>Install something else
>>>
>>>
>>> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
>>> awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
>>> the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
>>> complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
>>> computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
>>> not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
>>> So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.
>>>
>>
>> GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough to
>> be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen.  The
>> community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in
>> everywhere.  Also, it is difficult when we are only a few people working on
>> a large project such as this.   The point is... help us, I know you have
>> told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute directly, but
>> writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is something you CAN
>> do.
>>
>> You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're seeing in
>> the places I have asked you to do so.
>>
>> GC
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola <
>>> riccardo.mott...@libero.it> wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 bruce wrote:
 > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux
 repo. I
 > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
 > certain circumstances.

 Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
 depending on a platform.

 Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.

 > Hm, I'll give that a try,.
 > But to build a product, I 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if
you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I
say about linux gui affects windows.

You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore, and
I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there, so
microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few days.

Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a clean
repro and file a bug in github.



On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures of
>> gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
>> native.
>>
>> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks
>> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from
>> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their
>> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on
>> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>>
>
> This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on Windows,
> so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I, personally, don't
> mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation to my left, so
> maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.
>
> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter - ask
>> any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for other
>> users, it is often a non-starter.
>>
>> My experience has been:
>>
>>-
>>
>>Wow this is cool
>>-
>>
>>Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
>>
>>
> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>
>
>>
>>-
>>
>>Wow this looks old
>>-
>>
>>Wow this is hard to use
>>
>>
> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
>
>
>>
>>-
>>
>>Install something else
>>
>>
>> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
>> awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
>> the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
>> complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
>> computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
>> not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
>> So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.
>>
>
> GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough to
> be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen.  The
> community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in
> everywhere.  Also, it is difficult when we are only a few people working on
> a large project such as this.   The point is... help us, I know you have
> told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute directly, but
> writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is something you CAN
> do.
>
> You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're seeing in
> the places I have asked you to do so.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola <
>> riccardo.mott...@libero.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> bruce wrote:
>>> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo.
>>> I
>>> > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
>>> > certain circumstances.
>>>
>>> Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
>>> depending on a platform.
>>>
>>> Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.
>>>
>>> > Hm, I'll give that a try,.
>>> > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
>>> > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support
>>> nightmare.
>>>
>>> GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
>>> you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
>>> path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
>>> working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
>>> its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
>>> work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.
>>>
>>> Riccardo
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bruce Davidson
>>
>>
>
> --
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
>
> [image: Mailtrack]
> 
>  Sender
> notified by
> Mailtrack
> 
>  12/19/23,
> 12:35:33 PM
>


-- 

Bruce Davidson

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Richard Frith-Macdonald]

> On 20 Dec 2023, at 07:44, Albert Palacios  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> With the GitHub code, where the GSTheme.m file is 8 years old, I can't see 
> how to create a theme to my liking. Now I see that there have been 
> modifications three months ago to some files, I will have to look at the 
> differences to see in detail what it is about.

Please take a look at the documentation (or, since it is generated from mark in 
the heaqder files) GSTheme.h
Perhaps also look at Thematic.app,  since GSTheme and Thematic.app were 
developed together (so we would have an app to manage/build themes).  The app 
is far from complete (the hope being that theme developers woudl add missing 
functionality when they needed it), buteven so it  allows a lot of theme setup 
to be done using a GUI.
The documentation at the start of GSTheme.h describes how themes are meant to 
work overall,  a key feature being that themes can be dynamically switched in a 
running application (so in Thematic.app you can see the effects of changes made 
when editing a theme).

Simple themes use settings (user defaults) to control behaviors, color lists to 
control the colors of each GUI element, replacement bitmap images, and bitmap 
tiling ... stuff that can be built in the app using the GUI and no coding.
A substantial part of the theme code is dedicated to making those things simple 
to change, so in Thematic.app you can use the GUI to select settings, set 
colors for all the named interface elements etc, and even to specify tiles to 
be repeated to make up elements of the GUI without any need for coding.

More complex themes are implemented by having a subclass of GSTheme where you 
override some of the methods used to modify the behavior and to draw different 
control element.  There are a lot of those methods, grouped into categories by 
function.  However there's no guarantee that there will be a method to control 
everything you want.
There's also an ability to name individual objects so that your drawing code 
can treat particular objects differently from others (see 
-setName:forElement:temporary: and -nameForElement:).

The intended solution to that is that theme developers should reach out to the 
GNUstep developers and ask for a new theme method to be added to allow some 
specific behavior/drawing to be altered;  a new method would be added to 
GSTheme and the GUI class would be modified to call the new method from 
GSTheme.  The theme developer would then override this new method (in their 
GSTheme sbclass) to alter behavior/appearance when their theme is active.

But ... getting a new theming method in place (and waiting for a new release 
gof the GUI) is time consuming, so as an temporary solution the GSTheme code 
actually allows your GSTheme subclass to temporarily override methods in other 
classes in a way which still works with the theme switching mechanism (see the 
-overriddenMethod:for: method, which describes the naming convention for doing 
this).


> Also, in the documentation, I can't see anywhere how to properly make a 
> custom vector theme from scratch, and I haven't found any example either. 

I guess by 'vector theme' you mean one where you implement methods to do the 
drawing.  That's fundamentally a programming task (what I describe as 'More 
complex themes' above) rather than GUI based design.  As such you need to look 
at implementing/overriding the GSTheme methods in the various categories,  but 
to know which ones you want to change you also need to look at the GUI code to 
see which theme methods are used where.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Albert,

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 2:44 AM Albert Palacios  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> With the GitHub code, where the GSTheme.m file is 8 years old, I can't see
> how to create a theme to my liking. Now I see that there have been
> modifications three months ago to some files, I will have to look at the
> differences to see in detail what it is about.
>

Yes, the relevant changes are in GSThemeDrawing.m and GSThemeMenu.m.  Those
are categories on GSTheme.

The 'Argentum' theme from the 'AgoraDesktop' repository on Github seems
> like an empty skeleton, but you have already said that the previous images
> were made with a vector editing program, and not real functioning code.
> Nevertheless, I have not been able to get this project to work, because
> although there is an installer, there is no explanation anywhere on how to
> start the desktop and my knowledge of FreeBSD is NIL.
>

There is no "Desktop."  There are only apps and the API.


> Also, in the documentation, I can't see anywhere how to properly make a
> custom vector theme from scratch, and I haven't found any example either. I
> really mean it when I say that if I achieve my goal of making a GNUStep
> program that doesn't make my eyes bleed, I will make more modern
> documentation for my students.


This is, again, our fault.  Documentation is wanting.  We need more
examples.  While Agora might not be implemented at the moment, other themes
that you have been shown have been.   The issue is we don't have a desktop
to show you.   Also, making your "eyes bleed" is very subjective.  I'm sure
some things make my eyes bleed that you might love.

But right now, I can't use your library in the classroom because they will
> think I am crazy. I know the 90s were phenomenal, but my students were born
> after 2000, I can't introduce Objective C in the classroom with an
> aesthetic that is prehistoric to them.
>

We are not in love with the 90s.  The "default" look of GNUstep is in place
for practical reasons.  It is what was originally implemented before the
relevant drawing code was moved to GSTheme and its categories.

I would have been very concerned if a professor of mine hadn't introduced
me to something because he thought I would not like its aesthetic.  I find
that rather concerning.


> Thank you very much for your patience, but when you say that it is very
> easy to criticize and more difficult to contribute, take note yourselves
> too. Because it's very easy to say that the approach of overriding the code
> is completely wrong, and not to provide any clear and real example of a
> vector theme that can be used as a base, and where it is clearly seen how
> to modify the menus or complex components.


Given that there are examples (both of code and of image-based themes) in
the GitHub GNUstep repo, it is certainly easy to say your approach is wrong
because it IS.   Our documentation is, indeed, lacking, but there are a few
examples out there that you don't have to search for.  It's right there on
GitHub.   The Windows theme, in fact, completely REPLACES the menus and
uses Windows menus.

Ultimately you are correct in that, while there are examples in the repo...
it is not well documented and we need to have more tutorials.   This is
hard given that we have a very small team.

I have been following this list for a long time,


And, like Bruce, you have been watching and SAYING NOTHING and NOT WRITING
BUGS and CONTRIBUTING NOTHING.   If you want your opinions to be taken
seriously, it is more productive to submit bugs, or contribute code.  Help
us make GNUstep better.  Criticizing is EXTREMELY EASY... ACTUALLY
contributing something concrete is HARD.


> and what is evident is that there would be more interest in GNUStep if,
> let's see how I put it, ..., it was more clearly explained how to customize
> it to everyone's taste.


I thought that's what we have been doing with GSTheme as well as trying to
make GNUstep portable to as many platforms as possible.


> Including those of us who have appreciated the updates to macOS since
> Cheetah, and have never owned a NeXTcube.
>

Indeed.


> Albert
>

Yours, GC

> On 19 Dec 2023, at 22:26, Kyle Cardoza  wrote:
> >
> > “Mr. Cardoza” makes me look for the warrant in your hand, but yes, I
> have been working on refactoring default drawing behaviour into the base
> GSTheme class, to enable better control over theme elements in subclasses.
> There’s definitely improvements to be made in the theme that would be
> presented to new users in a hypothetical reference distro (which is not
> necessarily the same as the base GSTheme class!), but I can’t say I think
> the base theme is ugly. Just old fashioned. That isn’t inherently a bad
> thing, but I see how some might get the wrong impression about what GNUstep
> is and can do based on the NeXTSTEP look and feel.
> >
> > The theme I am designing is based entirely on vector drawing, to take
> full advantage of modern high dpi displays, and show off what a fully
> native 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Albert Palacios]

Hi,

With the GitHub code, where the GSTheme.m file is 8 years old, I can't see how 
to create a theme to my liking. Now I see that there have been modifications 
three months ago to some files, I will have to look at the differences to see 
in detail what it is about. 

The 'Argentum' theme from the 'AgoraDesktop' repository on Github seems like an 
empty skeleton, but you have already said that the previous images were made 
with a vector editing program, and not real functioning code. Nevertheless, I 
have not been able to get this project to work, because although there is an 
installer, there is no explanation anywhere on how to start the desktop and my 
knowledge of FreeBSD is NIL. 

Also, in the documentation, I can't see anywhere how to properly make a custom 
vector theme from scratch, and I haven't found any example either. I really 
mean it when I say that if I achieve my goal of making a GNUStep program that 
doesn't make my eyes bleed, I will make more modern documentation for my 
students. But right now, I can't use your library in the classroom because they 
will think I am crazy. I know the 90s were phenomenal, but my students were 
born after 2000, I can't introduce Objective C in the classroom with an 
aesthetic that is prehistoric to them.

Thank you very much for your patience, but when you say that it is very easy to 
criticize and more difficult to contribute, take note yourselves too. Because 
it's very easy to say that the approach of overriding the code is completely 
wrong, and not to provide any clear and real example of a vector theme that can 
be used as a base, and where it is clearly seen how to modify the menus or 
complex components. 

I have been following this list for a long time, and what is evident is that 
there would be more interest in GNUStep if, let's see how I put it, ..., it was 
more clearly explained how to customize it to everyone's taste. Including those 
of us who have appreciated the updates to macOS since Cheetah, and have never 
owned a NeXTcube.

Albert




> On 19 Dec 2023, at 22:26, Kyle Cardoza  wrote:
> 
> “Mr. Cardoza” makes me look for the warrant in your hand, but yes, I have 
> been working on refactoring default drawing behaviour into the base GSTheme 
> class, to enable better control over theme elements in subclasses. There’s 
> definitely improvements to be made in the theme that would be presented to 
> new users in a hypothetical reference distro (which is not necessarily the 
> same as the base GSTheme class!), but I can’t say I think the base theme is 
> ugly. Just old fashioned. That isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I see how 
> some might get the wrong impression about what GNUstep is and can do based on 
> the NeXTSTEP look and feel. 
> 
> The theme I am designing is based entirely on vector drawing, to take full 
> advantage of modern high dpi displays, and show off what a fully native 
> GNUstep environment is actually capable of being. That’s a lot of work, but 
> it’s work that is being done. 
> 
>> Additionally, Mr. Cardoza, who wrote earlier in this list.  Thought as you 
>> do about the theming stuff and I helped him with understanding what could be 
>> done by pointing him to the code.  He contributed code to handle the menu 
>> padding (PRECISELY THE ISSUE YOU POINTED OUT) to GSTheme about two months 
>> ago.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Kyle Cardoza]

“Mr. Cardoza” makes me look for the warrant in your hand, but yes, I have been 
working on refactoring default drawing behaviour into the base GSTheme class, 
to enable better control over theme elements in subclasses. There’s definitely 
improvements to be made in the theme that would be presented to new users in a 
hypothetical reference distro (which is not necessarily the same as the base 
GSTheme class!), but I can’t say I think the base theme is ugly. Just old 
fashioned. That isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I see how some might get the 
wrong impression about what GNUstep is and can do based on the NeXTSTEP look 
and feel. 

The theme I am designing is based entirely on vector drawing, to take full 
advantage of modern high dpi displays, and show off what a fully native GNUstep 
environment is actually capable of being. That’s a lot of work, but it’s work 
that is being done. 

>> Additionally, Mr. Cardoza, who wrote earlier in this list.  Thought as you 
>> do about the theming stuff and I helped him with understanding what could be 
>> done by pointing him to the code.  He contributed code to handle the menu 
>> padding (PRECISELY THE ISSUE YOU POINTED OUT) to GSTheme about two months 
>> ago.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Albert,

Also, as an aside... I work for Eggplant/Keysight now and I helped
Algorridim get their dJay software working on their platform.   So, yes,
those are 100% legitimate references.

GC

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 4:07 PM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> Albert,
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 12:23 PM Albert Palacios 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have tried to develop a 'modern' looking theme for GNUstep, but I
>> always end up 'overwriting' base functions in ridiculous ways and finding
>> obstacles that discourage me.
>>
>
> This is our fault because our documentation has been woefully out of date
> due to issues with autogsdoc (our tool for documentation generation).
>  Also, the documentation is kind of in an obscure place, so it's no wonder
> you missed it.  For future reference it is here...
>
> https://gnustep.github.io/developers/documentation.html
>
> That documentation is a bit old, but it is better than what you have now.
> ;) Which is nothing at all.
>
>
>> Especially because I think that when changes are made to the original
>> code, the theme will fail.
>>
>
> Overriding or category-smashing the code is the absolute worst way.   We
> have created a class called GSTheme to which all GUI objects delegate their
> drawing functions.   This class can be loaded at runtime so as to allow the
> GUI to assume a different theme.   Since it is done using a bundle and the
> way it is done is by delegating to the GSTheme class it doesn't break the
> existing code.
>
>
>> The themes only work if they are pixel-based and do not change the
>> spacing or positioning of the elements, meaning you have a 90s application
>> with condensed elements and background textures, whereas now the trend is
>> towards spaced elements, flat colors, rounded contours, and transparencies
>> (yes, I know that for transparency you need a suitable compositor...).
>>
>>
> Not true.  The Windows theme and native GTK theme are both code-based
> which use the native widgets of the OS.  As are several other themes that
> are available.  They are not restricted to just pixel-based themes.
>
> Additionally, Mr. Cardoza, who wrote earlier in this list.  Thought as you
> do about the theming stuff and I helped him with understanding what could
> be done by pointing him to the code.  He contributed code to handle the
> menu padding (PRECISELY THE ISSUE YOU POINTED OUT) to GSTheme about two
> months ago.
>
>
>> For example, I have never managed to add more 'padding' to the menus. The
>> photo of Agora Desktop a bit further up is completely unrealistic with the
>> current GNUStep code. The only way to change the menu items padding
>> is overwriting the original functions:
>>
>> #import "GV+NSMenuItemCell.h"
>> #import "GVTheme.h"
>>
>> @interface NSMenuItemCell (GVThemePrivate)
>> - (NSSize)_sizeKeyEquivalentText:(NSString *)text;
>> - (NSString *)_keyEquivalentString;
>> @end
>>
>> @implementation NSMenuItemCell (GVTheme)
>>
>> - (void) calcSize
>> {  // … original code ...
>>   // Change width
>>   _titleWidth = _titleWidth + 50;
>>
>>   // TODO How to change height ???
>> }
>>
>> @end
>>
>>
> This is an example of what I mentioned earlier (category smashing).  You
> don't need to do this.   You should be able to find what you need in the
> GSTheme class.
>
>
>> You can look at the code I've worked with here, although it's probably
>> completely wrong due to lack of documentation.
>>
>> https://github.com/optimisme/GNUStep-Theme
>>
>> This is not an attack, I really would like to contribute, at least to
>> modernize the appearance of GNUStep and/or improve the website (which is
>> another huge disaster).
>>
>
> Nor it is being taken as one.  Just don't interpret frank responses as any
> sort of an attack on you.  None is meant.   I agree that the website needs
> some updating.
>
> But seeing your attitude, the main developers, who always vehemently
>> defend your opinions, I think it's not really worth it.
>>
>
> See this is the kind of thing I hate.  Someone comes with a stupid
> suggestion like
>
> 1) It's ugly
> 2) Use GTK
> 3) Abandon all of your work and just re-write it...
> 4) You guys suck
>
> ... and when we give them sane feedback it is seen as "vehemently defend
> your opinions" when all we are trying to do is give friendly feedback and
> guidance to people who are not doing things properly.   Again, that is our
> fault, since we don't document things well.
>
> If you *actually* engage the community by reporting bugs or even by
> submitting code you will find that we are a very welcoming and friendly
> group.  Don't take redirection as a rebuke of your opinions.  WE WANT YOUR
> FEEDBACK.  What we don't want is feedback that is not useful (e.g. Consider
> GTK as GUI) because it tells us NOTHING that is going wrong.
>
> Especially regarding aesthetics, it's enough to follow the history of this
>> mailing list to see a constant pattern:
>>
>> • Someone opines that GNUStep is ugly.
>> • Then a series of messages like: GNUStep is super 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Albert,

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 12:23 PM Albert Palacios 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have tried to develop a 'modern' looking theme for GNUstep, but I always
> end up 'overwriting' base functions in ridiculous ways and finding
> obstacles that discourage me.
>

This is our fault because our documentation has been woefully out of date
due to issues with autogsdoc (our tool for documentation generation).
 Also, the documentation is kind of in an obscure place, so it's no wonder
you missed it.  For future reference it is here...

https://gnustep.github.io/developers/documentation.html

That documentation is a bit old, but it is better than what you have now.
;) Which is nothing at all.


> Especially because I think that when changes are made to the original
> code, the theme will fail.
>

Overriding or category-smashing the code is the absolute worst way.   We
have created a class called GSTheme to which all GUI objects delegate their
drawing functions.   This class can be loaded at runtime so as to allow the
GUI to assume a different theme.   Since it is done using a bundle and the
way it is done is by delegating to the GSTheme class it doesn't break the
existing code.


> The themes only work if they are pixel-based and do not change the spacing
> or positioning of the elements, meaning you have a 90s application with
> condensed elements and background textures, whereas now the trend is
> towards spaced elements, flat colors, rounded contours, and transparencies
> (yes, I know that for transparency you need a suitable compositor...).
>
>
Not true.  The Windows theme and native GTK theme are both code-based which
use the native widgets of the OS.  As are several other themes that are
available.  They are not restricted to just pixel-based themes.

Additionally, Mr. Cardoza, who wrote earlier in this list.  Thought as you
do about the theming stuff and I helped him with understanding what could
be done by pointing him to the code.  He contributed code to handle the
menu padding (PRECISELY THE ISSUE YOU POINTED OUT) to GSTheme about two
months ago.


> For example, I have never managed to add more 'padding' to the menus. The
> photo of Agora Desktop a bit further up is completely unrealistic with the
> current GNUStep code. The only way to change the menu items padding
> is overwriting the original functions:
>
> #import "GV+NSMenuItemCell.h"
> #import "GVTheme.h"
>
> @interface NSMenuItemCell (GVThemePrivate)
> - (NSSize)_sizeKeyEquivalentText:(NSString *)text;
> - (NSString *)_keyEquivalentString;
> @end
>
> @implementation NSMenuItemCell (GVTheme)
>
> - (void) calcSize
> {  // … original code ...
>   // Change width
>   _titleWidth = _titleWidth + 50;
>
>   // TODO How to change height ???
> }
>
> @end
>
>
This is an example of what I mentioned earlier (category smashing).  You
don't need to do this.   You should be able to find what you need in the
GSTheme class.


> You can look at the code I've worked with here, although it's probably
> completely wrong due to lack of documentation.
>
> https://github.com/optimisme/GNUStep-Theme
>
> This is not an attack, I really would like to contribute, at least to
> modernize the appearance of GNUStep and/or improve the website (which is
> another huge disaster).
>

Nor it is being taken as one.  Just don't interpret frank responses as any
sort of an attack on you.  None is meant.   I agree that the website needs
some updating.

But seeing your attitude, the main developers, who always vehemently defend
> your opinions, I think it's not really worth it.
>

See this is the kind of thing I hate.  Someone comes with a stupid
suggestion like

1) It's ugly
2) Use GTK
3) Abandon all of your work and just re-write it...
4) You guys suck

... and when we give them sane feedback it is seen as "vehemently defend
your opinions" when all we are trying to do is give friendly feedback and
guidance to people who are not doing things properly.   Again, that is our
fault, since we don't document things well.

If you *actually* engage the community by reporting bugs or even by
submitting code you will find that we are a very welcoming and friendly
group.  Don't take redirection as a rebuke of your opinions.  WE WANT YOUR
FEEDBACK.  What we don't want is feedback that is not useful (e.g. Consider
GTK as GUI) because it tells us NOTHING that is going wrong.

Especially regarding aesthetics, it's enough to follow the history of this
> mailing list to see a constant pattern:
>
> • Someone opines that GNUStep is ugly.
> • Then a series of messages like: GNUStep is super customizable, look at
> these beautiful screenshots...
>

Here is the thing...
* The default look is NOT GOING TO CHANGE... it is what it is.  GSTheme
draws it when no other theme is available.
* GNUstep IS customizable, but it is not well documented... so the reason
you don't see a lot of themes is because as you demonstrated no one knows
how to write them.
* The reason you get the responses you do is because the people 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Bruce,

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce  wrote:

> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures of
> gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
> native.
>
> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks brutalistic.
> Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from most people
> that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their desktop back”.
> I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on mac/windows, and
> the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
>

This is, unfortunately, true.  GNUstep is using native widgets on Windows,
so it is very likely to look better on that platform.  I, personally, don't
mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation to my left, so
maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.

Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter - ask
> any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for other
> users, it is often a non-starter.
>
> My experience has been:
>
>-
>
>Wow this is cool
>-
>
>Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
>
>
WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.


>
>-
>
>Wow this looks old
>-
>
>Wow this is hard to use
>
>
WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.


>
>-
>
>Install something else
>
>
> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
> awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
> the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
> complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
> computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
> not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
> So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.
>

GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough to
be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen.  The
community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in
everywhere.  Also, it is difficult when we are only a few people working on
a large project such as this.   The point is... help us, I know you have
told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute directly, but
writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is something you CAN
do.

You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're seeing in
the places I have asked you to do so.

GC



>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola <
> riccardo.mott...@libero.it> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> bruce wrote:
>> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
>> > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
>> > certain circumstances.
>>
>> Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
>> depending on a platform.
>>
>> Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.
>>
>> > Hm, I'll give that a try,.
>> > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
>> > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support
>> nightmare.
>>
>> GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
>> you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
>> path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
>> working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
>> its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
>> work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.
>>
>> Riccardo
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Bruce Davidson
>
>

-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings

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12/19/23,
12:35:33 PM

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Albert Palacios]

Hi, 

I have tried to develop a 'modern' looking theme for GNUstep, but I always end 
up 'overwriting' base functions in ridiculous ways and finding obstacles that 
discourage me. 

Especially because I think that when changes are made to the original code, the 
theme will fail. 

The themes only work if they are pixel-based and do not change the spacing or 
positioning of the elements, meaning you have a 90s application with condensed 
elements and background textures, whereas now the trend is towards spaced 
elements, flat colors, rounded contours, and transparencies (yes, I know that 
for transparency you need a suitable compositor...).

For example, I have never managed to add more 'padding' to the menus. The photo 
of Agora Desktop a bit further up is completely unrealistic with the current 
GNUStep code. The only way to change the menu items padding is overwriting the 
original functions:

#import "GV+NSMenuItemCell.h"
#import "GVTheme.h"

@interface NSMenuItemCell (GVThemePrivate)
- (NSSize)_sizeKeyEquivalentText:(NSString *)text;
- (NSString *)_keyEquivalentString;
@end

@implementation NSMenuItemCell (GVTheme)

- (void) calcSize
{  // … original code ...
  // Change width
  _titleWidth = _titleWidth + 50;

  // TODO How to change height ???
}


@end

You can look at the code I've worked with here, although it's probably 
completely wrong due to lack of documentation.

https://github.com/optimisme/GNUStep-Theme

This is not an attack, I really would like to contribute, at least to modernize 
the appearance of GNUStep and/or improve the website (which is another huge 
disaster).

But seeing your attitude, the main developers, who always vehemently defend 
your opinions, I think it's not really worth it. 

Especially regarding aesthetics, it's enough to follow the history of this 
mailing list to see a constant pattern:

• Someone opines that GNUStep is ugly.
• Then a series of messages like: GNUStep is super customizable, look at these 
beautiful screenshots...

It would be less ridiculous if you stopped saying that GNUStep is beautiful and 
customizable, because it's not. If it were, there would be more updated themes 
and applications. Maybe even a desktop.

Look, in the end, the project is yours, and I suppose it has been profitable 
for you. Why argue, it's not worth it.

Albert



> El 19 des. 2023, a les 16:46, bruce  va 
> escriure:
> 
> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures of 
> gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and native.
> 
> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks brutalistic. 
> Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from most people that 
> have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their desktop back”. I see 
> a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on mac/windows, and the way it 
> looks on linux/freebsd.
> 
> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter - ask 
> any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for other 
> users, it is often a non-starter. 
> 
> My experience has been:
> • Wow this is cool
> • Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
> • Wow this looks old
> • Wow this is hard to use
> • Install something else
> 
> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is 
> awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately, the 
> freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That complicates 
> targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But computer users see 
> these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s not my app, it’s the 
> way it presents on your os. So they use another app. So much for platform 
> agnostic. So much for marketability.
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola  
> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> bruce wrote:
> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
> > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
> > certain circumstances.
> 
> Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
> depending on a platform.
> 
> Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.
> 
> > Hm, I'll give that a try,.
> > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
> > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare.
> 
> GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
> you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
> path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
> working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
> its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
> work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.
> 
> Riccardo
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bruce Davidson
> 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures of
gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and
native.

My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks brutalistic.
Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from most people
that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their desktop back”.
I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on mac/windows, and
the way it looks on linux/freebsd.

Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter - ask
any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for other
users, it is often a non-starter.

My experience has been:

   -

   Wow this is cool
   -

   Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
   -

   Wow this looks old
   -

   Wow this is hard to use
   -

   Install something else


But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is
awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately,
the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That
complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But
computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s
not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app.
So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.



On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> bruce wrote:
> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
> > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
> > certain circumstances.
>
> Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
> depending on a platform.
>
> Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.
>
> > Hm, I'll give that a try,.
> > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
> > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support
> nightmare.
>
> GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
> you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
> path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
> working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
> its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
> work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.
>
> Riccardo
>


-- 

Bruce Davidson

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

bruce wrote:
> I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
> couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
> certain circumstances.

Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
depending on a platform.

Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.

> Hm, I'll give that a try,.
> But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
> without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare.

GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.

Riccardo

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Bruce,

bruce wrote:
> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade,
> waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time

The only thing that happens if you wait watching the water flowing of a
river is that in theory your enemy will pass along...
The only way to fix bugs is to report them and work on them. At least
know if other shave the same issue!
If nobody has your issue, it will never get solved by itself! Obvious,
isn't it?
I am working on gnustep for two decades... so I beat you. And I assure
you, it improved powerful.-

> I’ve had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the
> place I find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many

I run it currently on dozen of systems, most various, from a Raspberry 3
to Sun Sparcstations and even Netra racks, BSDs and Linux, gcc and clang
runtimes, various graphics.

On most GNUstep applications (e.g. GWorkspace, Gorm, ProjectCenter) to
GAP applications no bad display bugs. I mostly use WindowMaker and too
use XFCE.

> artifacts, themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the
> desktop - that’s a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change that,
> just consider an alternative.

I use XFCE, you can integrate quite decently with it regarding menus:
switch to in-window menus. Mini-windows can be disabled.
If you write your app, you can handle the no-main-window situation as
you prefer. There is a specific bug with copy, but we are working
on it.

You can consider your alternative for your need, I don't need it: I am
fixing and improving what I have now.

> 
> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve
> talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no
> one on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say.

Since we have no official forums, it is elsewhere. You keep continuing
to be very generic. Best is if you can refer the bug to specific, public
application, else, a test app needs to be provided.

> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use
> WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so I’m
> suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using
> CoreGTK.framework

You are free to kill any bird you want. I don't need kill any and you
have the freedom to use CoreGTK.framework for your needs! You can also
write a QT framework, a wayland backend... GNUstep core is divided in
libraries and bundles, use what you need.

Different is want me to follow your ideas.

Riccardo

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

More like ndas all the way down 

I worked for Microsoft for 20 years on internal enterprise support, mostly
with product and platform developers and partners like SAP, Apple and
everyone’s customers. I got all the technical training, and secrets, and
signed nda’s with everyone, for products that still have license and
support revenue, which is the indefinite part. There is too much to sort
out, and I see possible overlap with your project.

If the project is a flappy bird clone, I don’t care. But I get that there
are people depending on gnustep for livelihood.So even with a low
probability, I think the risk to you is too high to get involved with your
project on any kind of technical level.


On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 5:23 PM  wrote:

> Gregory,
>
> I am presently bouncing between working on GNUstep-gui, finishing my
> W65C816S-based retro computer/games console design (Sentinel 65X), building
> a Commodore 1581 clone, filling orders for products I sell, and getting
> ready for the holidays. I wouldn’t expect much materially visible progress
> on much until the new year, but nothing is getting abandoned.
>
> On Dec 18, 2023, at 11:07 AM, Gregory Casamento 
> wrote:
>
> Kyle,
>
> I was about to write to see now things are going. I am glad you're working
> on this.
>
> Thanks!  GC
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 11:03 AM Kyle Cardoza 
> wrote:
>
>> I appreciate the shout out, and yes, I am working on this, but to
>> clarify, those are mock-ups, not screenshots. They’re drawn entirely with
>> vector objects (in Affinity Designer) that GNUstep already knows how to
>> draw, though. I feel it’s important to have a solid design before digging
>> deep into the code.
>>
>> On Dec 18, 2023, at 04:59, Gregory Casamento 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> James,
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 4:39 AM James Carthew  wrote:
>>
>>> Look into the Agora Desktop system developer, they're currently
>>> reworking the GNUstep GUI system to support vector based themes. The work
>>> is very impressive attached are some screenshots from earlier this year.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you for showing this as I wasn't able to find my images of Agora.
>>
>> Just one slight correction: GNUstep has always supported vector-based
>> graphics in general.  Theming support was added several years ago.  One
>> thing that should be pointed out is that GNUstep uses a PostScript-like
>> model for its drawing (like macOS and its predecessor OPENSTEP/NeXTSTEP),
>> so it is and ALWAYS has been vector-based from the beginning. :)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>> Agora is INDEED beautiful.   It's a testament to how flexible GNUstep is.
>>
>> GC
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 at 03:09, Richard Frith-Macdonald <
>>> rich...@frithmacdonald.me.uk> wrote:
>>>


 > On 17 Dec 2023, at 14:20, Andreas Fink  wrote:
 >

 > The only version which is not up to date on repo.gnustep.ch is
 currently Ubuntu22 on Intel as I run into a strange error with configure of
 gnustep-base as it does not want to detect my libiconv-1.17 version for
 some reason. The same version I compiled and used under Ubuntu22 on arm64
 and on Debian worked just fine. (if anyone has a hint on how to convince
 ./configure to just use my libiconv I pass, let me know.
 --with-libiconv-library=/usr/local/lib/libiconv.a  was not enough).

 I had a look at the documentation/comments in configure.ac
 They suggest you may need to use  --with-libiconv-include= as well as
 --with-libiconv-library= if you have multiple versions of iconv with
 conflicting headers
 If that fails, I guess you'd need to look at the config log to work out
 why.

>>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory Casamento
>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
>>
>>
>
> --
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
>
>
>

-- 

Bruce Davidson

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[kyle . cardoza]

Gregory,

I am presently bouncing between working on GNUstep-gui, finishing my 
W65C816S-based retro computer/games console design (Sentinel 65X), building a 
Commodore 1581 clone, filling orders for products I sell, and getting ready for 
the holidays. I wouldn’t expect much materially visible progress on much until 
the new year, but nothing is getting abandoned.

> On Dec 18, 2023, at 11:07 AM, Gregory Casamento  
> wrote:
> 
> Kyle,
> 
> I was about to write to see now things are going. I am glad you're working on 
> this.
> 
> Thanks!  GC
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 11:03 AM Kyle Cardoza  > wrote:
>> I appreciate the shout out, and yes, I am working on this, but to clarify, 
>> those are mock-ups, not screenshots. They’re drawn entirely with vector 
>> objects (in Affinity Designer) that GNUstep already knows how to draw, 
>> though. I feel it’s important to have a solid design before digging deep 
>> into the code. 
>> 
>>> On Dec 18, 2023, at 04:59, Gregory Casamento >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> James,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 4:39 AM James Carthew >> > wrote:
 Look into the Agora Desktop system developer, they're currently reworking 
 the GNUstep GUI system to support vector based themes. The work is very 
 impressive attached are some screenshots from earlier this year.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for showing this as I wasn't able to find my images of Agora. 
>>> 
>>> Just one slight correction: GNUstep has always supported vector-based 
>>> graphics in general.  Theming support was added several years ago.  One 
>>> thing that should be pointed out is that GNUstep uses a PostScript-like 
>>> model for its drawing (like macOS and its predecessor OPENSTEP/NeXTSTEP), 
>>> so it is and ALWAYS has been vector-based from the beginning. :)
>>>  
 
 
 
 
>>> 
>>> Agora is INDEED beautiful.   It's a testament to how flexible GNUstep is.
>>> 
>>> GC
>>> 
>>>  
 
 On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 at 03:09, Richard Frith-Macdonald 
 mailto:rich...@frithmacdonald.me.uk>> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 17 Dec 2023, at 14:20, Andreas Fink  > > wrote:
> > 
> 
> > The only version which is not up to date on repo.gnustep.ch 
> >  is currently Ubuntu22 on Intel as I run into 
> > a strange error with configure of gnustep-base as it does not want to 
> > detect my libiconv-1.17 version for some reason. The same version I 
> > compiled and used under Ubuntu22 on arm64 and on Debian worked just 
> > fine. (if anyone has a hint on how to convince ./configure to just use 
> > my libiconv I pass, let me know. 
> > --with-libiconv-library=/usr/local/lib/libiconv.a  was not enough).
> 
> I had a look at the documentation/comments in configure.ac 
> 
> They suggest you may need to use  --with-libiconv-include= as well as 
> --with-libiconv-library= if you have multiple versions of iconv with 
> conflicting headers
> If that fails, I guess you'd need to look at the config log to work out 
> why.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Gregory Casamento
>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>>> http://www.gnustep.org  - 
>>> http://heronsperch.blogspot.com 
>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org  - 
> http://heronsperch.blogspot.com 
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Andreas Fink]

> On 17 Dec 2023, at 17:38, Richard Frith-Macdonald 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 17 Dec 2023, at 14:20, Andreas Fink  wrote:
>> 
> 
>> The only version which is not up to date on repo.gnustep.ch is currently 
>> Ubuntu22 on Intel as I run into a strange error with configure of 
>> gnustep-base as it does not want to detect my libiconv-1.17 version for some 
>> reason. The same version I compiled and used under Ubuntu22 on arm64 and on 
>> Debian worked just fine. (if anyone has a hint on how to convince 
>> ./configure to just use my libiconv I pass, let me know. 
>> --with-libiconv-library=/usr/local/lib/libiconv.a  was not enough).
> 
> I had a look at the documentation/comments in configure.ac
> They suggest you may need to use  --with-libiconv-include= as well as 
> --with-libiconv-library= if you have multiple versions of iconv with 
> conflicting headers
> If that fails, I guess you'd need to look at the config log to work out why.


I tried this but it didn't help.
I have reinstalled that ubuntu machine and this time it worked.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Richard Frith-Macdonald]

> On 17 Dec 2023, at 14:20, Andreas Fink  wrote:
> 

> The only version which is not up to date on repo.gnustep.ch is currently 
> Ubuntu22 on Intel as I run into a strange error with configure of 
> gnustep-base as it does not want to detect my libiconv-1.17 version for some 
> reason. The same version I compiled and used under Ubuntu22 on arm64 and on 
> Debian worked just fine. (if anyone has a hint on how to convince ./configure 
> to just use my libiconv I pass, let me know. 
> --with-libiconv-library=/usr/local/lib/libiconv.a  was not enough).

I had a look at the documentation/comments in configure.ac
They suggest you may need to use  --with-libiconv-include= as well as 
--with-libiconv-library= if you have multiple versions of iconv with 
conflicting headers
If that fails, I guess you'd need to look at the config log to work out why.

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

btw - I'm not associated with helloSystem other than as a user.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 2:56 PM bruce  wrote:

> I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
> couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under certain
> circumstances.
> Hm, I'll give that a try,.
> But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
> without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare.
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 2:44 PM Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 8:43 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released
>>> in 2006, as I'm sure you are aware.
>>>
>>
>> I am using 2.x on my Debian Linux 12 install here, but then again I am
>> building from source.
>>
>> I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create
>>> 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a
>>> maintainer of their gnustep port.
>>>
>>
>> Understood, as you mentioned before. I am not sure what to do to remedy
>> that situation.
>>
>> GC
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento <
>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Bruce,

 On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce 
 wrote:

> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve
> assumed this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical
> bureaucracy. But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc.
> I never choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as
> Launchpad depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally
> referred to as obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use
> gnustep. So I installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of
> building gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.
>
>
 Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current
 releases of gnustep libraries are as follows:

 gnustep-base: 1.28.0
 gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
 gnustep-back: 0.30.0
 gnustep-make: 2.9.1

 I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify
 that would be immensely helpful.

 Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going
> to base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.
>
> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the 
> gnustep
> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his 
> response
> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.
>

 It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still
 KNOW that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY
 help on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.
  So you have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out,
 both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.

 Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
> understand this:
>
>
 Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is
 NOT the way.


> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is
> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’
>

 As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still
 support GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never
 talked to anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because
 you ran into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on
 GitHub we have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and
 gcc.  Clang is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a
 compiler thing, not a framework thing.

 The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
> Linux/FreeBSD.
>
> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
> csharp.
>

 Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under certain
circumstances.
Hm, I'll give that a try,.
But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it without
all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 2:44 PM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 8:43 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in
>> 2006, as I'm sure you are aware.
>>
>
> I am using 2.x on my Debian Linux 12 install here, but then again I am
> building from source.
>
> I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create
>> 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a
>> maintainer of their gnustep port.
>>
>
> Understood, as you mentioned before. I am not sure what to do to remedy
> that situation.
>
> GC
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento <
>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve
 assumed this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical
 bureaucracy. But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc.
 I never choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as
 Launchpad depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally
 referred to as obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use
 gnustep. So I installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of
 building gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.


>>> Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current releases
>>> of gnustep libraries are as follows:
>>>
>>> gnustep-base: 1.28.0
>>> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
>>> gnustep-back: 0.30.0
>>> gnustep-make: 2.9.1
>>>
>>> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify
>>> that would be immensely helpful.
>>>
>>> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going
 to base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
 obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.

 My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
 github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep
 project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
 desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
 was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response
 that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
 he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.

>>>
>>> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still
>>> KNOW that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY
>>> help on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.
>>>  So you have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out,
>>> both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.
>>>
>>> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
 understand this:


>>> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is
>>> NOT the way.
>>>
>>>
 ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is
 also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’

>>>
>>> As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support
>>> GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to
>>> anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran
>>> into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on GitHub we
>>> have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and gcc.  Clang
>>> is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a compiler thing,
>>> not a framework thing.
>>>
>>> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
 complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
 books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
 Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
 looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
 Linux/FreeBSD.

 I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
 Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
 csharp.

>>>
>>> Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong.
>>>
>>> As I mentioned in my previous email.  All you have done here is come
>>> onto our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our
>>> discussion regarding helloSystem on Git Hub.  What you have failed to do as
>>> I pointed out there and in my 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Bruce,

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 8:43 AM bruce  wrote:

> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in
> 2006, as I'm sure you are aware.
>

I am using 2.x on my Debian Linux 12 install here, but then again I am
building from source.

I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create
> 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a
> maintainer of their gnustep port.
>

Understood, as you mentioned before. I am not sure what to do to remedy
that situation.

GC

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento 
> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed
>>> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy.
>>> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never
>>> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad
>>> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as
>>> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I
>>> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building
>>> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.
>>>
>>>
>> Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current releases
>> of gnustep libraries are as follows:
>>
>> gnustep-base: 1.28.0
>> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
>> gnustep-back: 0.30.0
>> gnustep-make: 2.9.1
>>
>> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify
>> that would be immensely helpful.
>>
>> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to
>>> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
>>> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.
>>>
>>> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
>>> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep
>>> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
>>> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
>>> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response
>>> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
>>> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.
>>>
>>
>> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still
>> KNOW that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY
>> help on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.
>>  So you have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out,
>> both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.
>>
>> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
>>> understand this:
>>>
>>>
>> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is
>> NOT the way.
>>
>>
>>> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is
>>> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’
>>>
>>
>> As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support
>> GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to
>> anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran
>> into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on GitHub we
>> have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and gcc.  Clang
>> is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a compiler thing,
>> not a framework thing.
>>
>> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
>>> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
>>> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
>>> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
>>> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
>>> Linux/FreeBSD.
>>>
>>> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
>>> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
>>> csharp.
>>>
>>
>> Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong.
>>
>> As I mentioned in my previous email.  All you have done here is come onto
>> our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our discussion
>> regarding helloSystem on Git Hub.  What you have failed to do as I pointed
>> out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the community.
>> This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but with many
>> projects).   I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I detailed
>> previously, you need to do it constructively.  Coming onto the mailing list
>> and complaining is not going to help your case.
>>
>> You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead".  I,
>> personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead.
>> ;)
>>
>> GC
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Andreas Fink]

Bruce,

GNUStep supports Ojbc2.0 with libobjc2.0 and clang but the versions packaged 
with Debian or Ubuntu are compiled with the old runtime.

https://repo.gnustep.ch/ can help you to install "gnustep2" which pulls in 
versions compiled with clang and libobjc2.
I use this combination since years under Debian and Ubuntu on x86_64 and arm64 
for my own applications as I need ARC for my peace of mind.

How to build from source I have documented here:

https://github.com/andreasfink/ulib/blob/master/doc/README-Debian12-bookworm.txt
https://github.com/andreasfink/ulib/blob/master/doc/README-Ubuntu-22.txt

However the graphical artefacts you stated are for sure not in relation to 
libobjc2 because this is gui stuff. And thats in gnustep-gui.
The only version which is not up to date on repo.gnustep.ch is currently 
Ubuntu22 on Intel as I run into a strange error with configure of gnustep-base 
as it does not want to detect my libiconv-1.17 version for some reason. The 
same version I compiled and used under Ubuntu22 on arm64 and on Debian worked 
just fine. (if anyone has a hint on how to convince ./configure to just use my 
libiconv I pass, let me know. --with-libiconv-library=/usr/local/lib/libiconv.a 
 was not enough).


> On 17 Dec 2023, at 14:43, bruce  wrote:
> 
> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in 
> 2006, as I'm sure you are aware.
> I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create 2.1 
> on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a maintainer of 
> their gnustep port.
> 
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento  > wrote:
>> Bruce,
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce > > wrote:
>>> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed 
>>> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy. 
>>> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never 
>>> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad 
>>> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as 
>>> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I 
>>> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building 
>>> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.
>>> 
>> 
>> Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current releases of 
>> gnustep libraries are as follows:
>> 
>> gnustep-base: 1.28.0
>> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
>> gnustep-back: 0.30.0
>> gnustep-make: 2.9.1
>> 
>> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify that 
>> would be immensely helpful.
>> 
>>> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to 
>>> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past 
>>> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.
>>> 
>>> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on 
>>> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep 
>>> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style 
>>> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep 
>>> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response 
>>> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove 
>>> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.
>> 
>> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still KNOW 
>> that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY help 
>> on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.   So you 
>> have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out, both 
>> commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.
>> 
>>> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I 
>>> understand this:
>>> 
>> 
>> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is NOT 
>> the way.
>>  
>>> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is also 
>>> compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’
>> 
>> As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support 
>> GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to 
>> anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran 
>> into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on GitHub we 
>> have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and gcc.  Clang 
>> is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a compiler thing, 
>> not a framework thing.
>> 
>>> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have 
>>> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly 
>>> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of 
>>> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in
2006, as I'm sure you are aware.
I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create
2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a
maintainer of their gnustep port.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento 
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed
>> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy.
>> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never
>> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad
>> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as
>> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I
>> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building
>> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.
>>
>>
> Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current releases
> of gnustep libraries are as follows:
>
> gnustep-base: 1.28.0
> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
> gnustep-back: 0.30.0
> gnustep-make: 2.9.1
>
> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify that
> would be immensely helpful.
>
> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to
>> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
>> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.
>>
>> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
>> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep
>> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
>> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
>> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response
>> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
>> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.
>>
>
> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still
> KNOW that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY
> help on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.
>  So you have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out,
> both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.
>
> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
>> understand this:
>>
>>
> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is NOT
> the way.
>
>
>> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is
>> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’
>>
>
> As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support
> GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to
> anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran
> into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on GitHub we
> have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and gcc.  Clang
> is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a compiler thing,
> not a framework thing.
>
> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
>> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
>> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
>> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
>> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
>> Linux/FreeBSD.
>>
>> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
>> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
>> csharp.
>>
>
> Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong.
>
> As I mentioned in my previous email.  All you have done here is come onto
> our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our discussion
> regarding helloSystem on Git Hub.  What you have failed to do as I pointed
> out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the community.
> This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but with many
> projects).   I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I detailed
> previously, you need to do it constructively.  Coming onto the mailing list
> and complaining is not going to help your case.
>
> You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead".  I,
> personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead.
> ;)
>
> GC
>
>
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve
>>> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation…
>>>
>>>
>>> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates
>>> the issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen -
>>> no searching for 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Bruce,

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce  wrote:

> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed
> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy.
> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never
> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad
> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as
> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I
> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building
> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.
>
>
Where are you getting these version numbers from?   The current releases of
gnustep libraries are as follows:

gnustep-base: 1.28.0
gnustep-gui: 0.30.0
gnustep-back: 0.30.0
gnustep-make: 2.9.1

I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to.  If you could clarify that
would be immensely helpful.

Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to
> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.
>
> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep
> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response
> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.
>

It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.  I still KNOW
that you're wrong.  Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY help
on anything.  Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction.   So
you have proved NOTHING.  Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out, both
commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect.

Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
> understand this:
>
>
Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is NOT
the way.


> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is also
> compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’
>

As is GNUstep.  We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support
GCC.  Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to
anyone about.   You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran
into an issue on your system, it MUST not work.  Please check on GitHub we
have CI running for every commit.  It works fine with clang and gcc.  Clang
is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0.  This is a compiler thing,
not a framework thing.

The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
> Linux/FreeBSD.
>
> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
> csharp.
>

Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong.

As I mentioned in my previous email.  All you have done here is come onto
our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our discussion
regarding helloSystem on Git Hub.  What you have failed to do as I pointed
out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the community.
This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but with many
projects).   I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I detailed
previously, you need to do it constructively.  Coming onto the mailing list
and complaining is not going to help your case.

You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead".  I,
personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead.
;)

GC


> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve
>> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation…
>>
>>
>> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates the
>> issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - no
>> searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain
>> gnustep apps. Not a great interface.
>>
>> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not certain
>> my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. The same
>> with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I haven’t used
>> a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft.
>>
>> I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been there
>> for a decade 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Gregory Casamento]

Bruce,

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:23 PM bruce  wrote:

> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve
> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation…
>
>
>
There are a number of examples in the github repository as well as
documentation in gnustep-gui's Documentation directory.   We are certainly
not hiding how to do this from you.


> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates the
> issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - no
> searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain
> gnustep apps. Not a great interface.
>

With respect to the "artifacts" I haven't seen the scrollview issue you
mention on either Windows or Linux platforms.  I admit I haven't tried
HelloSystem, so I can't speak to which backend they are using (whether it's
X, Art, Cario, Wayland, etc).   Also, I have never tried xfce... so some of
what you might be running into might not be directly something associated
with GNUstep itself.  I would recommend building GNUstep yourself on a
Linux system and try that, or even on a *BSD system.


> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not certain
> my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. The same
> with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I haven’t used
> a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft.
>



I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong.
>

It is wrong, period, so you can rest fully assured that this will never
ever under any circumstance ever happen.  Subject on this closed.


> But these bugs have been there for a decade without getting fixed, and
> what I’m starting to think is that this is just a linux issue.
>

Just a linux issue, it works PERFECTLY on Linux for me and for, as I
mentioned, many corporate customers.  Yet another company that uses GNUstep
is Algoriddim (a german company that sells a music app).


> Until recently I had expected to hear that gnustep was dead.
>

Yet another misconception that clearly illustrates an unwillingness (on
your part) to even follow a link to GitHub to take a look at the recent
activity.  I have a job which lets me work on GNUstep every day.  I am
making improvements to GNUstep code almost daily... as are others.


> The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a while,
>

Yes, because the person hosting it passed away. :( We are still in the
process of getting some things back online, but with a volunteer team this
takes time.  Many of the dead links should be fixed by now.  The wiki is
still not up because it was an old version and is in the process of being
converted.


> and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for FreeBSD.
>

Isn't BSD dead?! (kidding)  I can't speak to who maintains packages for any
give *BSD and who doesn't.   The project is not in direct control of any of
the people who package it for any given distribution or OS.

The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s the old 1.9,
> so you have to build it manually to get the current version.
>

Where is it considered dead?  Where do you see that?  There have been
changes in recent days and there is plenty of activity on the GitHub repo.
Where are you looking?   Are you looking AT ALL or just assuming?!


> Maybe it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just
> continue not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out.
>

The issue as I see it is this... you are using a version of GNUstep on a
distro that we have no direct contact with.  You are using it with a
backend that may or may not be fully supported.   You have stylistic issues
with the project which you perceive as bugs.  You have had scant contact
with the team and have NOT engaged in interacting with us in any useful way
other than complaining on the mailing list.  I can tell you from experience
that simply coming into the forum and yelling loudly may not get what you
want.   If you submit bugs on GitHub it will get you MUCH more attention.

Yes, we have issues in how we present our documentation.
Yes, we have bugs that some people find annoying, but it helps immensely if
people report them instead of advocating abandoning all present work to use
something that is a non-starter.

What we need is this...
* Proper engagement from people who wish GNUstep to be better... this
consists of:
  1) Submitting bugs when you find a problem.
  2) Submitting CODE if you are so inclined to do so.  We happily will
accept any reasonable changes and have an excellent track record of being
open to change
  3) Engaging the community in a friendly and non-confrontational manner.

If you do the above, you will see much more success in getting things
changed or improved.

I hope this helps,

Yours, GC



> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd 
> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Have you tried
>> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle
>> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle
>>
>> 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed
this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy.
But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never
choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad
depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as
obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I
installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building
gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away.

Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to
base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past
obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0.

My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on
github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep
project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style
desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep
was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response
that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove
he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong.

Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I
understand this:

‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is also
compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’

The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have
complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly
books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of
Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started
looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on
Linux/FreeBSD.

I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or
Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to
csharp.


On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce  wrote:

> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve
> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation…
>
>
> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates the
> issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - no
> searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain
> gnustep apps. Not a great interface.
>
> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not certain
> my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. The same
> with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I haven’t used
> a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft.
>
> I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been there
> for a decade without getting fixed, and what I’m starting to think is that
> this is just a linux issue. Until recently I had expected to hear that
> gnustep was dead. The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a
> while, and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for
> FreeBSD. The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s the
> old 1.9, so you have to build it manually to get the current version. Maybe
> it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just continue
> not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd 
> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Have you tried
>> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle
>> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle
>>
>> That will put the menus at the top of each window.
>>
>> Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely a
>> good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some love.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Here are some examples
>>
>>
>> Notice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in prepackaged
>> binary SystemPreferences.app:
>>
>>
>> You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global menu.
>> This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list artifacts are
>> less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu collision
>> still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s jarring.
>> What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle that pops up
>> momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and then
>> disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop
>> environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento <
>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have made
>>> comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding certain things
>>> of interest.  My apologies that you didn't get the response that you felt
>>> you needed on some of these issues...
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[bruce]

Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve found.
I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation…


But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates the
issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - no
searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain
gnustep apps. Not a great interface.

I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not certain
my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. The same
with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I haven’t used
a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft.

I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been there
for a decade without getting fixed, and what I’m starting to think is that
this is just a linux issue. Until recently I had expected to hear that
gnustep was dead. The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a
while, and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for
FreeBSD. The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s the
old 1.9, so you have to build it manually to get the current version. Maybe
it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just continue
not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out.


On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd  wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Have you tried
> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle
> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle
>
> That will put the menus at the top of each window.
>
> Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely a
> good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some love.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Here are some examples
>
>
> Notice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in prepackaged
> binary SystemPreferences.app:
>
>
> You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global menu.
> This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list artifacts are
> less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu collision
> still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s jarring.
> What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle that pops up
> momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and then
> disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop
> environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have made
>> comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding certain things
>> of interest.  My apologies that you didn't get the response that you felt
>> you needed on some of these issues...
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:34 PM bruce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade,
>>> waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time I’ve
>>> had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the place I
>>> find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many artifacts,
>>> themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the desktop - that’s
>>> a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change that, just consider an
>>> alternative.
>>>
>>
>> I use GNUstep on Debian Linux at home (I have since Debian 9) and Ubuntu
>> 16-22 at work as well as Windows at work.  All are tolerable work
>> environments.   I use the Ubuntu and Windows instances mostly for
>> Keysight.  On the windows side we use the Windows theme and it has never
>> been a problem for any of the clients that Keysight has using the Eggplant
>> software.  Windows makes up approximately 90+% of their user-base.
>>
>> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve
>>> talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no one
>>> on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say.
>>>
>>
>> I am familiar with some of the issues you mention.  There are ways to get
>> around them.  If you would like to discuss that I suggest you ask about
>> which ones specifically.  I may go back and answer some of your previous
>> emails.
>>
>> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use
>>> WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m
>>> suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using
>>> CoreGTK.framework
>>>
>>
>> Well.  Here is the thing.  You may be under the misconception that
>> GNUstep is intended as a Desktop Environment.  It isn't or, at least, it
>> hasn't been.   GNUstep's major focus over these many years has been to be
>> as cross-platform as humanly possible.   Arguably it has achieved that...
>> GNUstep currently runs on any POSIX-compliant OS, as well as Windows on
>> both MSYS2 and MSVC.
>>
>> The issue is that the project has left worrying about the 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Daniel Boyd]

Bruce,Have you trieddefaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle NSWindows95InterfaceStyleThat will put the menus at the top of each window. Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely a good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some love. Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce  wrote:Here are some examplesNotice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in prepackaged binary SystemPreferences.app:You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global menu. This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list artifacts are less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu collision still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s jarring. What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle that pops up momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and then disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on.On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento  wrote:Bruce,I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have made comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding certain things of interest.  My apologies that you didn't get the response that you felt you needed on some of these issues...On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:34 PM bruce  wrote:Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade, waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time I’ve had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the place I find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many artifacts, themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the desktop - that’s a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change that, just consider an alternative.I use GNUstep on Debian Linux at home (I have since Debian 9) and Ubuntu 16-22 at work as well as Windows at work.  All are tolerable work environments.   I use the Ubuntu and Windows instances mostly for Keysight.  On the windows side we use the Windows theme and it has never been a problem for any of the clients that Keysight has using the Eggplant software.  Windows makes up approximately 90+% of their user-base.The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no one on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say.I am familiar with some of the issues you mention.  There are ways to get around them.  If you would like to discuss that I suggest you ask about which ones specifically.  I may go back and answer some of your previous emails.I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using CoreGTK.frameworkWell.  Here is the thing.  You may be under the misconception that GNUstep is intended as a Desktop Environment.  It isn't or, at least, it hasn't been.   GNUstep's major focus over these many years has been to be as cross-platform as humanly possible.   Arguably it has achieved that... GNUstep currently runs on any POSIX-compliant OS, as well as Windows on both MSYS2 and MSVC.   The issue is that the project has left worrying about the "Desktop" to other projects... (examples of this are Etoile -- defunct, GSDE, NEXTSPACE, etc).   As such GNUstep is perceived as being "reluctant" to change the default theme from the one many people claim is "Ugly".  I find that ironic given that many OSs modeled their look AFTER NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP (Windows 95 being the most prominent of these, as well as AmigaOS 2+).One of the things that has been discussed recently has been the creation of a "Reference Distribution" on Linux and, possibly, other *BSD platforms to allow us to better demonstrate what GNUstep is capable of doing.What I can tell you will never happen is throwing out gnustep-gui in favor of a replacement.  Let's consider your suggestion of CoreGTK.  If we moved to that we would no longer have compatibility with macOS, also we would not be able to use libs-xcode to build projects from macOS on GNUstep platforms.   Additionally, the framework you suggest lacks many of the widgets we already have so, while on the surface, it might seem like a good move it is simply not a viable solution.   So, any notion of replacement is not one that we will consider under any circumstances. NOW, all of that being said... it is perfectly acceptable and possible for you to port that framework to work with GNUstep.  You don't have to use gnustep-gui if you don't wish to.  That would be fairly awesome.  There is nothing that says you can't use any framework you wish in conjunction with GNUstep.  The more the merrier. :)Yours Sincerely, GCOn Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 6:14 PM Gregory Casamento  wrote:Hi 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

I just wonder if you can write macOS native apps (using apple cocoa) with 
gtkcore? It looks as if you just move the problem elsewhere. seems to need X11 
on macOS and then you have non-native menus there. Or you have to write your 
app gui twice. Or am I wrong?

On The Road

> Am 16.12.2023 um 20:35 schrieb bruce :
> 
> 
> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade, waiting 
> for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time I’ve had 5 
> different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the place I find 
> gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many artifacts, themes 
> are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the desktop - that’s a design 
> issue , and I’m not asking you to change that, just consider an alternative.
> 
> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve talked 
> on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no one on the 
> project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say.
> 
> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use WindowMaker, 
> and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m suggesting that you 
> can kill 2 birds with one stone by using CoreGTK.framework
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 6:14 PM Gregory Casamento  
>> wrote:
>> Hi Bruce,
>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:34 AM bruce  wrote:
>>> I love gnustep objective-c and Foundation. But the UI is pretty ugly. 
>>> Theming fixes it cosmetically, but it doesn’t fix the real issues. The menu 
>>> and main icon don’t really fit on any modern desktop. And the GUI itself is 
>>> buggy, and leaves artifacts strewn all over the window. 
>> 
>> I am not sure what you mean by this.   Instead of making general statements 
>> like the above filing bug reports on github (https://github.com/gnustep) 
>> would be more useful as they would provide more context to the actual issues 
>> you are referring to and also help us address the problem you seem to be 
>> seeing.   I have been lead for many years and use GNUstep every day, 
>> including with LARGE customers...
>> 
>> Please see https://eggplant.io (Keysight) they have 1000s of clients and 
>> their product is using GNUstep's master branch.
>> 
>> Additionally, there are some very attractive themes for GNUstep... namely...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> And...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As well as the Windows theme... (on windows of course)...
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>> So tbh, I’ve been investigating GtkSharp, since dotnet8.0 is now available 
>>> on linux, and is in ‘beta’ on freebsd. While investigating that, I 
>>> discovered gtkcore, a gtk binding for gnustep. It has some minor issues, 
>>> but not the magnitude of the issues with cocoa, and gtk is well known 
>>> territory.
>> 
>> There is a GtkTheme for GNUstep...
>> <55085-1.png>
>> 
>> https://github.com/gnustep/plugins-themes-Gtk/
>> 
>> Gtk is not my favorite toolkit, I would prefer a working cocoa, or even qt. 
>> But the freebsd desktop uses it in xfce, and with gnustep cocoa so unusable, 
>> I’m thinking that gtkcore is now the only way ahead to develop gui 
>> applications with gnustep. Or, I suppose you could fix cocoa - but that gets 
>> so much push back I’ve given up hope.
>>  
>> The best way to cooperate with the community is to file bugs and give useful 
>> feedback -- which you have NOT done here.  Simply saying "it doesn't work" 
>> or "it's ugly" is not going to help because people need SPECIFIC feedback to 
>> make things better.
>> 
>> PS.  The Gtk and Windows themes both use NATIVE widgets from those 
>> environments.
>> 
>>>  --
>>> 
>>> Bruce Davidson
>> 
>> Yours Sincerely, GC
>> -- 
>> Gregory Casamento
>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bruce Davidson
> 

Re: Consider GtkCore as UI

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Bruce,

bruce wrote:


I love gnustep objective-c and Foundation. But the UI is pretty ugly. 
Theming fixes it cosmetically, but it doesn’t fix the real issues. The 
menu and main icon don’t really fit on any modern desktop. And the GUI 
itself is buggy, and leaves artifacts strewn all over the window.




Style is a matter of taste. Bugs not. I don't experience any artifacts 
when using windows in any of the applications I use.
So perhaps it could be an issue of a specific application or a bug of 
your installation or environment.




So tbh, I’ve been investigating GtkSharp, since dotnet8.0 is now 
available on linux, and is in ‘beta’ on freebsd. While investigating 
that, I discovered gtkcore, a gtk binding for gnustep. It has some 
minor issues, but not the magnitude of the issues with cocoa, and gtk 
is well known territory.



That's your choice and it probably also depends on your desire and needs.

You could also try out (and possibly fixing, since it has been left into 
the state of beta) the native Gtk theme, that would give you native 
widgets and a decently integrated appearance, uncovering another maze of 
issues though.


Gtk is not my favorite toolkit, I would prefer a working cocoa, or 
even qt. But the freebsd desktop uses it in xfce, and with gnustep 
cocoa so unusable, I’m thinking that gtkcore is now the only way ahead 
to develop gui applications with gnustep. Or, I suppose you could fix 
cocoa - but that gets so much push back I’ve given up hope.




I don't understand fully: "cocoa" is Apple and has its own 
implementation, GNUstep is essentially a parallel implementation mostly 
compatible, QT is yet another beast. You are mixing things up a bit.


Riccardo