Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Whereas I think my old Drake TR-7 had the best UI of any radio I used! Maybe I was just young and naive then, but it was simple to use and a real performer. I have a K3 on order and as I've said before I would willingly pay another $1,000 for a bigger box with bigger knobs and buttons. Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Charles Harpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] This reminds me of the Drake TR-7 face design which was a HUGE mistake altho Drake told me that they consulted lots of experts (ex-spurts) and then came up with a look of a consumer stereo. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
The size of the K3 doesn't bother me, actually it is a benefit to me. It is going to replace my Yaesu FT-857 as my mobile radio. Due to a S-9 noise level problem at my home QTH, operating is almost impossible, so I do all my operating /M. Mark M5MDH ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
I'll say this and then be quiet. I find phrases like the following to be extremely offensive: designers had K2-its human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... attacks from rabid fans experts (ex-spurts) Real engineers seem to stall out when they try to confront intangible human factors toy sized I don't see what the point is in these comments. If you don't like a product - any product - just don't buy it. That's one of the great things about ham radio: we don't have to buy any particular thing, and we have lots of choices. KR2Q stated the choices perfectly, dittoes to what he wrote. Please - it's enough to say I prefer A over B. The derogatory comments about engineers, toys, experts, rabid fans, etc. are really, really offensive. The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the arena of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 and great specs are great, but.This means they can still be beaten in the marketplace when their specs indicate they should be the only hi end rig of choice. How much do each of those other rigs cost? Can you leave out features you don't find essential to lower the price, then add them later if you want to? For me, a 100 watt K3 kit with ATU and one optional roofing filter would be the starting point. Priced at about *half* of an Orion II with ATU. Put every available option in the K3 and its price will not reach 75% of the price of an Orion II with ATU. And the Orion II is much lower priced than the FTdx-9000 or the IC-7800. Elecraft's game has always been to produce high performance rigs (not toys - RIGS!) that are uniquely different from what's on the market, at a lower price and with much more owner involvement. That their products could even be considered competition to rigs costing so much more simply amazes me. Sorry for the rant, thanks for the BW 73 de Jim, N2EY ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
I'd sure try out the NB in the K3 and letting the rest of us know how it does with the noise prob. Do you have a good handle on the source of the noise? ( I used to live 100yds from the main steel towers (270KV) going into Los Angeles, and they were about S7 when clean) Al WA6VNN ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
I agree with Jim, N2EY on all points. However, this forum is an excellent avenue for consumer feedback. Disagreements should not be discouraged. The K3 is probably NOT the last product Elecraft will produce. If there is a profitable niche to address some of the issues brought up, then it makes sense to provide a product to meet those needs. Whining is one thing. Consumer feedback is another...I guess they DO overlap. To the folks at Elecraft, I think you hit it out of the park with the K3. (I think you hit it out of the park with the K2!) If QRP kits with large knobs, etc. have a niche, I am sure you can fill it, if you want. I like to consider the marketplace (ANY marketplace) as infinitely large. John AB8O ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
And then there are those of use who are professional usability engineers... Having met and talked at length with both Wayne and Eric on several occasions, I suspect that they both know what they're doing. Being intuitively obvious is always the goal but rarely achieved in practice. And often what is wonderfully simply on the initial pass becomes less desirable as experienced is gained. That's why, sometimes, a Novice and Expert mode for complex devices is often employed. I for one am happy to wait and willing to reserve judgment. Two K2's, a K1 and a KX1 later, I'm fairly convinced the K3 will be worth every day of waiting. Having spent years working with complex technical projects, the holdups to me seem predictable and completely understandable. My collection of Japanese HF radios will go on ebay as soon as the K3 is operational here. My station will consist of a K1, K2 and K3. (and an amplifier if they ever actually come to market). I doubt that I'll spend anytime longing for my old Icom. Doug - K0DXV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll say this and then be quiet. I find phrases like the following to be extremely offensive: designers had K2-its human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... attacks from rabid fans experts (ex-spurts) Real engineers seem to stall out when they try to confront intangible human factors toy sized I don't see what the point is in these comments. If you don't like a product - any product - just don't buy it. That's one of the great things about ham radio: we don't have to buy any particular thing, and we have lots of choices. KR2Q stated the choices perfectly, dittoes to what he wrote. Please - it's enough to say I prefer A over B. The derogatory comments about engineers, toys, experts, rabid fans, etc. are really, really offensive. The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the arena of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 and great specs are great, but.This means they can still be beaten in the marketplace when their specs indicate they should be the only hi end rig of choice. How much do each of those other rigs cost? Can you leave out features you don't find essential to lower the price, then add them later if you want to? For me, a 100 watt K3 kit with ATU and one optional roofing filter would be the starting point. Priced at about *half* of an Orion II with ATU. Put every available option in the K3 and its price will not reach 75% of the price of an Orion II with ATU. And the Orion II is much lower priced than the FTdx-9000 or the IC-7800. Elecraft's game has always been to produce high performance rigs (not toys - RIGS!) that are uniquely different from what's on the market, at a lower price and with much more owner involvement. That their products could even be considered competition to rigs costing so much more simply amazes me. Sorry for the rant, thanks for the BW 73 de Jim, N2EY ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Harpole Elecraft designers had K2-its thinking they were mostly evolving a K2 Big mistake as I said in an earler message The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the areana of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 and great specs are great, but the human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... is left out. This means they can still be beaten in the marketplace when their specs indicate they should be the only hi end rig of choice. I didn't quite follow you here Charles. What human factor item is the K3 missing that will limit it in the marketplace? Maybe it isn't flashy enough? - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Exactly. Human factor=Flashy knobs. How else could you impress a shack visitor if your radio had precious few knobs? Big seller for off shore rigs..panel full of knobs the majority of which one never touches after that first day when the radio arrived and there was lots to play with. Contesting or rag chewing, there's not all that many knobs one needs to turn, so where's the beef? My buddy Charles, who I met at VU4, I say go ahead with Orion II. de Joe, aa4nn I didn't quite follow you here Charles. What human factor item is the K3 missing that will limit it in the marketplace? Maybe it isn't flashy enough? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
FINALLY, something negative about the K3. Sounds odd, but I'm glad to hear it. My fear is that this rig will be so good and so desirable that demand will far outstrip supply for some time leading to shortages (I won't be able to get one) and the possibility of lower quality due to growing pains and Elecraft and rushed production. Having never touched one, I'd agree that a 2.5 VFO knob would have been a better choice than 1.5. Direct access to bands and modes (and filter selections) are some very nice things to have as well. One of the things I loved about my Omni V was that you had individual buttons for these things and they had LEDs to show you which one was selected. But my K2 has all of these limitations as well. Despite the fact that I'd like to have them fixed, they are not enough of an issue for me to step away from the K2 in favor of any other rig. The K2 just works to nicely despite the few human factors issues. It looks to me like there is room on the K3 for a bit bigger knob on both VFOs. Certainly not 1/2 bigger, but maybe 20% bigger. If K3 sales are high enough, maybe there will be an aftermarket knob for the rig? It will be interesting to watch the whole thing unfold! 73! - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - -Original Message- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] There two human factors items that have been cited several times: 1) the knobs are perceived to be too small. The current 1.5 and 1.0 (approx) are believed to be too small. 2) The lack of a set of direct access band and mode select keys. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Hello Craig, For LF work I am using a Wandel Goltermann selective level meter. The tuning knob measures a meagre 22 mm / 0.86 inch. Nevertheless this has never bothered me as the tuning rate adjusts itself to the tuning speed. The tuning speed can be set to a step of either 1 Hz / 100 Hz. With a step of 1 Hz it is easy to have a tuning speed of 10 Hz per revolution. As this unit has a filter of 24 Hz wide, you need this at times. With 100 Hz per step a good swivel of the knob brings you from the start to the other end of the 1650 kHz wide tuning range (200 Hz - 1650 kHz). The tuning of my K2 is a set back in this regard. K2#6177 worked this morning 3B7C on 18 MHz with a 2 x 50 feet doublet as antenna. Never used a rig with split before, but it works like a treat. I have also been measuring the power output for a fixed setting of the power control. T4 has been wound 2:2:1:1 for better efficiency at 5W: Supply voltage was 12.2 V and a 50 ohm dummy load was used. The RF voltage over the dummy load was measured with a 10:1 probe connected to a Tektronix 465B oscilloscope. Bandoutput (W) supply current (A) 1605.11.38 80 5.11.36 40 5.31.46 30 4.81.36 20 5.11.38 17 5.31.38 15 4.81.34 12 5.31.28 10 5.51.40 When we take the mean power as (4.8 + 5.5) / 2 = 5.15, delta max is 0.35 W. I find this quite amazing. Roelof Bakker,pa0rdt Middelburg, Netherlands JO11tm -- Mijn Postvak In wordt beschermd door SPAMfighter. 381 spam-mails zijn er tot op heden geblokkeerd. Download de gratis SPAMfighter via deze link: http://www.spamfighter.com/lnl ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Having never touched one, I'd agree that a 2.5 VFO knob would have been a better choice than 1.5. The Main VFO knob is 1.9 (4.8 cm) in diameter, not 1.5 (3.8 cm). I find it every bit as comfortable to use as the VFO knobs on my other base station targeted rigs. 73, Lyle KK7P ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Charles said: Elecraft designers had K2-its thinking they were mostly evolving a K2 Big mistake as I said in an earler message This is incorrect. The K3 designers had a clean sheet of paper. As I said in my NCJ article, Not at all an upgraded K2, this is an entirely new radio and a new manufacturing concept. Whereas the K2 is an inexpensive, digitally-controlled, analog radio in kit form, the K3 is a mid-priced, manufactured, digital radio with some interesting analog stages. While the K2 was born out of the QRP movement and later acquired an add-in 100 watt amplifier and DSP, Elecraft is introducing the K3 with a full complement of bells and whistles. Although it is available as a semi-kit – a box of manufactured boards and cabinetry that the purchaser assembles without a soldering iron – the factory-built and -aligned boards assure that every radio will have identical performance and reliability expectations. The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the areana of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 This is correct. and great specs are great, but the human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... is left out. This is incorrect. Please see my comments on user interface that I posted a few minutes ago in response to another post. Elecraft spent lots of time with cognitive science experts, world-class contesters and dedicated DXers optimizing the user interface and they did an excellent job. The rig excels in human factors. This means they can still be beaten in the marketplace when their specs indicate they should be the only hi end rig of choice. Any product can be beaten in the marketplace despite better specs. Specs aren't the only success factor. Elecraft also excels in support and has the most powerful online user community in the industry, but those do not guarantee success either. Marketing is also important and Elecraft does not have the deep pockets of Yaecomwood. Only time will tell just how successful the K3 becomes. But a lot of very smart, very talented operators and engineers are betting on it. It's going to be a fun ride. 73, /Rick N6XI ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Joe, aa4nn wrote: Exactly. Human factor=Flashy knobs. NEW Q SIGS: QKN? How many knobs does your radio have? QKK? How many of them do you actually know how to use? I find that my KLR [knob learning rate] on a new radio is about 1 K/M [knob per month]. I would like to finish the learning curve within my life expectancy, I'm 67, hence smaller numbers are good. I studied a new IC-7800 at K6IDX's place a couple of years ago. The number of knobs, switches, and buttons exceeds my ability to count them, and few if any of the legends conjured up anything that I thought I knew about radio. I've seen the K3 at an NCCC meeting. It's HF [human factor] is within my limits and I think I can handle it. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7 - www.cqp.org ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Hi Rick. Just read your post to the Elecraft list. I hope your comments have reached who I feel is the intended recipient. With regard to your NCJ article I would love to read about your impressions of the K3 Would it be possible to forward me a copy of the article. I realise this may not be possible as there may now be copyright issues. If you could. I would confirm that these would be for my own personal use and I would not make reference to them in any media. 73 Rowland G4APO K2, K1,KX1, awaiting 1st batch K3 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Rick, I too want to watch Elecraft evolution as a company. Niche marketing is especially interesting to me. I know it is a personal factor, but I want a separate mode switch, and separate instant selection band switches. Leaving these off a high end rig has no excuse and altho die hard Elecraft folks will defend to the death, these two human factors are important and I am hearing privately from many guys who agree with me and who like big rigs (but will not send a message to the group, likely for fear of attacks from rabid fans). See, I do not want a rig that I have to get used to. Also, because the rig was designed from scratch, there is no excuse for the small box/front panel. And for TWO fans! That is the main reason I say K3 evolved from K2... i.e., toy sized, etc., but not the innards, of course. This reminds me of the Drake TR-7 face design which was a HUGE mistake altho Drake told me that they consulted lots of experts (ex-spurts) and then came up with a look of a consumer stereo. I know that hurt that rig market when it was up against JA rigs with military look. Real engineers seem to stall out when they try to confront intangible human factors, which is understandable because those factors often do not make logical sense. 73, Charles Harpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Test your celebrity IQ. Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes! http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Elecraft designers had K2-its thinking they were mostly evolving a K2 Big mistake as I said in an earler message The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the areana of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 and great specs are great, but the human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... is left out. This means they can still be beaten in the marketplace when their specs indicate they should be the only hi end rig of choice. If I can afford it, I plan to give myself an ORION 2 for Xmas, just after taking delivery of my K3, I hope. I know I can sell either here in Thailand due to the buzz on both, so maybe eventually I will take my pick and if I can not hear the difference between the two (likely due to my weak abilities in that area), guess which will go up for sale.. 73, Charles Harpole HS0ZCW [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Café. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in the marketplace
Charles Harpole wrote: Elecraft designers had K2-its thinking they were mostly evolving a K2 Big mistake as I said in an earler message The K3 has jumped Elecraft into the areana of the ORION 2, FT-9000 and IC-7800 and great specs are great, but the human factor... so often ignored by purist engineers... is left out. This is totally not true. *Your* idea of the human factor -- it should have a tuning knob like my HRO, or whatever -- is not satisfied by the K3. But to my mind it's quite reasonable in size, has a reasonable number of knobs of a reasonable size, and is easy to learn to use. Actually, I think it's correct to say that from an engineering standpoint 'human factors' had as much or more attention paid to them than raw performance. I've used the IC7800 and I've used the K3 and the K3 is easier to use. No, it doesn't have as many knobs. So what? -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
