Re: [Elecraft] Odd Power Control on 30M/K-3 and KPA-1500

[Jim Brown]

On 7/26/2024 2:21 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
I wonder if anyone else has seen this?  when I transmit on 30M, I turn 
my K-3's power down so as to only put out 200 watts.


I think that means you need to re-do power calibration. I do the same on 
both 60M and 30M.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Odd Power Control on 30M/K-3 and KPA-1500

[W3FPR]

Pete,

That is normally called 'power hunting'.  Its usual cause is not driving 
the K3 audio to an adequate level.  You should have 4 bars solid on the 
ALC bargraph with the 5th bar flickering.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/26/2024 5:21 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
I wonder if anyone else has seen this?  when I transmit on 30M, I turn 
my K-3's power down so as to only put out 200 watts.  Each time I 
transmit (on FT8), the amp's output power starts quite low, rises 
second by second to around 270 watts and then drops back to the 
desired 200 watts (+/-).  Later in the same operating session, output 
power from the KPA-1500 varies between 175 and 225 watts three or four 
times during a single transmission.




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[Elecraft] Odd Power Control on 30M/K-3 and KPA-1500

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

I wonder if anyone else has seen this?  when I transmit on 30M, I turn 
my K-3's power down so as to only put out 200 watts.  Each time I 
transmit (on FT8), the amp's output power starts quite low, rises second 
by second to around 270 watts and then drops back to the desired 200 
watts (+/-).  Later in the same operating session, output power from the 
KPA-1500 varies between 175 and 225 watts three or four times during a 
single transmission.


--
73, Pete N4ZR
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Re: [Elecraft] PR6 power cable

[bill kipping via Elecraft]

Looking for a source for the PR6 preamp power cable/connector 3 pin header 
Thanks
On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:36, Ray  wrote:
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s power level macro

[Robert Strickland via Elecraft]

Jack...

Works just like you outlined. Also, I notice that the power out 
indicator on the KPA500 reads the power out of the k3 when in standby 
mode. I wonder how accurate that is compared to a dedicated inline power 
meter. At any rate, looking forward to this new flexibility.


...robert   KE2WY

On 12/5/2023 18:35, Robert Strickland via Elecraft wrote:
Is there a way to program a macro within the K3s to set power level(s)? 
My goal is to be able to shift between low power barefoot [100w] and a 
drive level for the KPA500 [15-20w]. Thanks


..robert   KE2WY


--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD ABPH KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net
Syracuse, New York FN13xa
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s power level macro

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

Is 17mSec not fast enough? When you hit the OP button on the KPA, it tells the 
K3 to make the adjustment, and the power is very quickly changed. Same is true 
when you go from OP to STBY, the K3 goes back to 100 watts.
I seriously question whether you can do things as fast with a macro and having 
to hit a second button (besides the OP/STBY on the KPA.
If you don’t know about this, you need to give it a try.

73,
Jack, W6FB


> On Dec 5, 2023, at 10:35 PM, Robert Strickland via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mike and Jack...
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions.
> Mike, I'm not clear "where" you are implementing your macro; perhaps you are 
> using the K3 utility. I'd like to avoid that and interact with the radio 
> directly. Jack, what I'm looking for is not different drive levels on 
> different bands, but switching drive levels on the same band 
> "instantaneously." For example, I'm chasing DX and not getting through at 
> 100w; turn on the amp, hit the macro button, and transmit; no adjustment. You 
> might have noticed that the power level knob changes the K3s power out very 
> slowly, and I'm trying to get around that with a macro. Thanks much. Looking 
> forward to your replies.
> 
> ...robertKE2WY
> 
> On 12/5/2023 18:35, Robert Strickland via Elecraft wrote:
>> Is there a way to program a macro within the K3s to set power
>> level(s)? My goal is to be able to shift between low power barefoot
>> [100w] and a drive level for the KPA500 [15-20w]. Thanks
>> ..robert   KE2WY
> 
> -- 
> Robert G. Strickland, PhD ABPH KE2WY
> rc...@verizon.net
> Syracuse, New York FN13xa
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s power level macro

[Robert Strickland via Elecraft]

Mike and Jack...

Thanks for your suggestions.
Mike, I'm not clear "where" you are implementing your macro; perhaps you 
are using the K3 utility. I'd like to avoid that and interact with the 
radio directly. Jack, what I'm looking for is not different drive levels 
on different bands, but switching drive levels on the same band 
"instantaneously." For example, I'm chasing DX and not getting through 
at 100w; turn on the amp, hit the macro button, and transmit; no 
adjustment. You might have noticed that the power level knob changes the 
K3s power out very slowly, and I'm trying to get around that with a 
macro. Thanks much. Looking forward to your replies.


...robertKE2WY

On 12/5/2023 18:35, Robert Strickland via Elecraft wrote:

Is there a way to program a macro within the K3s to set power
level(s)? My goal is to be able to shift between low power barefoot
[100w] and a drive level for the KPA500 [15-20w]. Thanks

..robert   KE2WY


--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD ABPH KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net
Syracuse, New York FN13xa
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s power level macro

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

We thought about that when we designed the KPA500. Take a look at page 29 of 
the K3S Rev A manual - "Per-band Power Control”.
You need to have the KPA500 communicating with the K3 through the Aux I/O cable.

It works amazingly well, no macros needed!

73,
Jack, W6FB


> On Dec 5, 2023, at 12:35 PM, Robert Strickland via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is there a way to program a macro within the K3s to set power level(s)? My 
> goal is to be able to shift between low power barefoot [100w] and a drive 
> level for the KPA500 [15-20w]. Thanks
> 
> ...robert   KE2WY
> -- 
> Robert G. Strickland, PhD ABPH KE2WY
> rc...@verizon.net
> Syracuse, New York FN13xa
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[Elecraft] K3s power level macro

[Robert Strickland via Elecraft]

Is there a way to program a macro within the K3s to set power level(s)? 
My goal is to be able to shift between low power barefoot [100w] and a 
drive level for the KPA500 [15-20w]. Thanks


...robert   KE2WY
--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD ABPH KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net
Syracuse, New York FN13xa
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[Elecraft] For Sale: Elecraft 500W Power Combo

[mark]

Gang,

I'm parting with my KPA500 / KAT500 combo. Was new from Elecraft in February 
2021. Both units work perfectly and are cosmetically excellent. Includes 
original manuals, 120V power cable and fuses, 1x KXSER (E850463), tuner power 
cable, NEMA 6-15P power cable (the one I used), Key Line cable, Computer 
interface cable for tuner, Enhanced Mode Aux Cable set for KPA500 + second 
E850463 aux cable for KAT500. AUX Cable Set incl: 15-Pin to 15-Pin DE-15 + Key 
Line Interrupter adapter.

I'm simplifying my shack and “upgrading" to a KW. If the package does not sell 
in a reasonable time I'll consider splitting the items. Email me for photos.

The asking price is $3100 and will be shipped in original Elecraft packaging 
via UPS with insurance. Or save $150 with local pickup anywhere between Erie, 
PA and Rochester, NY if it is not snowing!

Payment options are PayPal, cash and USPS money order. I’ve been battling to 
get Zelle setup…

73, Mark Adams K2QO
FN03ra

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[Elecraft] FS: Elecraft 500W Power Combo

[Mark Adams]

I'm parting with my KPA500 / KAT500 combo. Was new from Elecraft in February 
2021. Both units work perfectly and are cosmetically excellent. Includes 
original manuals, 120V power cable and fuses, 1x KXSER (E850463), tuner power 
cable, NEMA 6-15P power cable, Key Line cable, Computer interface cable for 
tuner, Enhanced Mode Aux Cable set for KPA500 + second E850463 aux cable for 
KAT500. AUX Cable Set incl: 15-Pin to 15-Pin DE-15 + Key Line Interrupter 
adapter.

I'm simplifying my shack and upgrading to a KW. If the package does not sell in 
a reasonable time I'll consider splitting the items. Email me for photos.

The asking price is $3100 and will be shipped in original Elecraft packaging 
via UPS with insurance. Or save $150 with local pickup anywhere between Erie, 
PA and Rochester, NY.

Payment options are PayPal, cash and USPS money order. 

73,
Mark Adams, K2QO
FN03ra
716-525-0076



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Re: [Elecraft] KPA100 Power Surge Advice

[Michael Carter]

Thanks, Geert Jan, for recounting the 'origin story'
of the K2 'twins', the outboard combination of the
KPA100 and KAT100.  I had not previously heard
of the origin and Lyle's (KK7P) role in that process.

I hope Larry can provide more detail about
the actual configuration of his outboard
KPA100.

73,
Mike, K8CN
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA100 Power Surge Advice

[Geert Jan de Groot]

Hi,

In addition to Mike's response (always happy to read his comments!), I 
think it is useful to give some additional hints as you may need a 
better understanding of the configuration you have.


The Elecraft K2 is a 15W QRP transceiver, with the optional QRP 
antennatuner and the battary option in the top lid.


When Elecraft introduced the 100W KPA option, the basic idea was that 
the top lid could be replaced with the KPA100 to get 100W output. When 
the KAT100 antenna tuner was introduced, it would add another (lower) 
box that was supposed to sit under the K2/100 radio. Switching between 
QRP portable mode (with battary) and 100W version meant switching the 
top lid.


The KPA100 doesn't have any indicators. The KAT100 tuner does: ANT1/ANT2 
selection, LOW/HIGH power (enabling or disabling the KPA100 amplifier, 
which could be switched to be bypassed for QRP power levels) and a LED 
bar to indicate SWR.


I think it was Lyle KK6P (of KDSP2 fame) who conceived a different 
approach: the frontpanel of the KAT100 tuner was available in two 
versions, one for the low KAT100 box, but also a bigger frontpanel that 
would be the same size as a K2 radio. You would buy a "K2 empty box" and 
in this second box, one would install the KAT100 tuner (bottom) and the 
KPA100 amplifier (top).
The QRP antenna tuner / battary would be in the original top, that stays 
on the K2. Connecting the boxes together would give a 100W radio with 
PA, 100W antenna tuner; disconnecting the two would give a the K2 
portable radio with builtin battary. I built this configuration.


Since you mention "separate enclosure" I suspect this is the config you 
built too.


It seems that information about this configuration has gotten a bit lost 
over the years. The KAT100 module design was made to allow for this; for 
instance, it had a BNC connector so that the input of the KPA100 
amplifier could be connected to the K2 this way. Power to the twin boxes 
would be via the 20A powerpole connector on the KPA100 module; the 
KPA100 module has a low-power power connector that would normally supply 
the K2, but in this configuration would power the KAT100 module. The 
KAT100 module, as well as the K2 radio itself, has a 2.1mm barrel jack 
that if you would use interconnect powercables, would power the K2 (from 
the KPA100 and the KAT100 module). And the AUX connector (DE9) on K2 and 
KPA100 on the twin box would be connected via a short jumper cable. 
There are a number of options here, depending on how this was built 
(hence 'information a bit lost').


I need *three* cables between the two twin boxes: a coax jumpercable to 
interconnect the BNC antenna ports, a powercable to power the K2 from 
the twin box, and a DE9 jumpercable to bring AUXbus, 12VCNTL, ALC, 8R 
and ground between the two boxes. Please verify you connected al three 
cables; I have my suspicions about the DE9 cable.


Now,to your question. First, the KPA100 module (again / still) does not 
have a power indicator. The KAT100 module *does* have indicators. And 
they only light if the KAT100 module senses power from the K2 radio 
(that is now it "switches off" if the K2 is switched off).


So, the first question is whether the K2 and the twin box is connected 
correctly. The twin box has 2 AUX DE9 connectors (one on the KPA100, one 
on the KAT100); please verify it is connected to the right one.
(In my case, I did not place the KAT100 DE9 connector because it didn't 
serve a purpose in my my radio config, the twinbox is made to use the 
DE9 of the KPA100 module!).


Another question is whether the KIO2 module, that provides the DE9 
connector on the K2 radio, actually still supplies +12V on pin 8 of the 
DE9 connector. The voltage is only used as "sense voltage" on the 
KAT100, not to power the tuner.


The K2 senses if it has the twin box connected during powerup. You can 
do a few checks: pressing the ANT1/2 button will flip the relays in the 
KAT100 if it was found during powerup, but will flip the relays in the 
KAT2 QRP antenna tuner if not (the relays in the KAT100 are LOUD!). The 
POWER knob will go to 110 if the KPA100 is found, bit only to 15 (or 10) 
if the KPA100 is not found.
If the K2 radio has the builtin battery, then you should be able to see 
the power supply voltage if you select it using the DISPLAY knob and 
then switch the power supply on and off (the K2 doesn't handle this very 
gracefully, kindly powercycle the K2 after this test).


In short, the problem description is a bit terse but I hope this message 
gives some more background about a config that is partially forgotten in 
past years and not very well documented.


And whatever you do, NEVER CONNECT A NORMAL RS232 SERIAL CABLE IN THE 
DE9 of a K2 OR KPA100 MODULE. A "serial device" only connects pin 2, 3 
and 5, NOTHING ELSE.


73, Geert Jan PE1HZG

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA100 Power Surge Advice

[Michael Carter]

Hi Larry,

You mention in the title '...Power Surge Advice.'
I presume your KPA100 was working properly
prior to not powering up?

You also describe the connection from your power supply to
the KPA100 and then to the K2 - does this
imply a Y-connection from the power supply
to both the K2 and KPA100 since the units
use different power connectors?

Do you have an external fuse inline from the
the power supply to the KPA100 and separately
the K2?

The KPA100 has no visual indication of
power-up status unless you added some
indicator in its external enclosure - how
do you know it is not powering up?

I would disconnect the power supply from
both units, measure the open-circuit terminal
voltage, then connect only the K2 to the power
supply and your antenna (bypass the KPA100).
Verify that the base K2/10 works as before.

Check your cables from the power supply
to the KPA100 and K2 for low resistance - and
be sure that the Anderson PowerPoles are
fully seated in the KPA100 connector.

I would measure the resistance at the
KPA100 power connector - in the normal
polarity it should read a high resistance,
in the other polarity it should read a
low resistance due to the reverse polarity
protection diode.

Please let us know your findings.

73,
Mike, K8CN
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[Elecraft] KPA100 Power Surge Advice

[Larry Dodson via Elecraft]

Advice would be much appreciated. I would start by saying  that I am not
very electronically skilled. The power suppy goes from the power supply to
a KPA100 in a separate enclosure which I built from a kit, then to the K2
Radio. The KPA100 does not light up, no power.
73 - Larry(G0IKE)
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[M Cresap via Elecraft]

 Hi Dave, Joe, and Jim
The GMSK to AM distortion across any 50 Hz bandwidth of a K3 filter would seem 
to be minor. With an FT8 symbol rate of 6.25 symbols per second, would that not 
create some relatively weak 6.25 Hz sidebands plus a bit of mush around those 
lines due to the pseudorandom nature of the bit patterns? That could increase 
the overall bandwidth by maybe 18 Hz above the nominal FT8 signal bandwidth. 
The narrowest resolution bandwidth I have been using is 10 Hz, which is too 
wide to pick up that level of detail. 

There is an equalization tool in WSJT-X that is supposed to equalize phase and 
amplitude filter distortions inside the radio for improved decoding. I haven't 
played with that feature, but it looks like it could provide degraded results 
if it collects data at one passband tuning setting, then tries to decode 
signals after the operator changes the PBT.

Bob has reminded me that ALC related measurements should be done with a fresh 
Tx Cal using the DC voltage/voltage drop that exists today in my shack. I 
recently changed the DC power wiring to 2 feet of #10 wire between the K4 and 
the power supply, just like what I did for my K3. I plan on doing that Tx cal 
tomorrow, will rerun the K4 measurements and let you know what I see.

73, Mike, W3IP

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 11:59:58 AM EDT, Dave (NK7Z)  
wrote:  
 
 Hello Mike,

Thanks for sharing your data!!  Help me understand something you said...

Are you saying that at 2 bars, (for your K4), all spurious signals, are 
at least 80 dB down from carrier, while at 5 bars, all spurious signals 
are running around 50 or 60 dB down from carrier?

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 7/23/23 07:23, M Cresap via Elecraft wrote:
> For my K4, the FT8 signal is clean with no more than 2 bars of ALC.
> To be clear, the spurious responses I have seen with ALC set to 5 bars has NO 
> measurable IMD responses. There is only the one strong signal present, the 
> spurious signals being discussed here are all less than 50 or 60 dB below the 
> intended carrier level. My goal is to reduce all the spurious responses to 80 
> dB below the intended carrier level.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Doppler caused "spreading" is readily identified ... the spreading is
generally in one direction (because airport "patterns" run in one
direction) and often manifests as a second signal offset by 60-80 Hz
(which can be independently decoded).  IMD is generally in both
directions and can not be decoded.

The *most disgusting* distortion is on signals in which the owner
pumps audio into a dynamic mic input and overdrives the mic preamp.
The mic gain control of most traditional rigs follows the preamp
and the preamp is often into clipping - particularly when the "speaker"
or headphone output of a sound card is run into a dynamic mic input
without an attenuator.  Electret inputs typically require a 20 dB
(10:1 voltage - 10 K series, 1K parallel resistors) attenuator while
dynamic inputs call for a 40 dB (100:1 - 47 K series, 470 Ohm parallel)
attenuator.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 7/23/2023 3:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 7/23/2023 9:49 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
It is my belief that many of the wide FT8 signals seen on 6 m FT8 are 
caused by Doppler shifted aircraft reflections.  It's very common here 
in the Phoenix metro area and does not imply that the transmitted 
signal was in any way abnormal.


YES! It's very common anywhere around airports with much traffic. We see 
lots of it in the SF Bay area -- N5KO, W6RN, WB6RJH, and I are roughly 
20 miles from SJC (San Jose) 30 miles from SFO (San Francisco), a little 
farther from OAK (Oakland). There are other propagation-related causes 
for spreading signals.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Jim Brown]

On 7/23/2023 9:49 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:

It is my belief that many of the wide FT8 signals seen on 6 m FT8 are caused by 
Doppler shifted aircraft reflections.  It's very common here in the Phoenix 
metro area and does not imply that the transmitted signal was in any way 
abnormal.


YES! It's very common anywhere around airports with much traffic. We see 
lots of it in the SF Bay area -- N5KO, W6RN, WB6RJH, and I are roughly 
20 miles from SJC (San Jose) 30 miles from SFO (San Francisco), a little 
farther from OAK (Oakland). There are other propagation-related causes 
for spreading signals.


73, Jim K9YC





















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[Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Andy Durbin]

"Clean FT8 spectra is badly needed, especially in metro areas at 10 meters and 
above, where many poor quality FT8 signals abound and wipe out many of the 
weaker stations that other stations are trying to receive. Yes, there are 
suggestions that folks in the same area all transmit at the same time, and many 
people try it, but in practice, not everyone is on-board with that suggestion."

It is my belief that many of the wide FT8 signals seen on 6 m FT8 are caused by 
Doppler shifted aircraft reflections.  It's very common here in the Phoenix 
metro area and does not imply that the transmitted signal was in any way 
abnormal.

Andy, k3wyc
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[Elecraft] K3 Power hunting on FT-8

[Bob McGraw]

Whereas it was written:   "The manufacturer says use 5 bars of ALC, end 
of story.  I don't buy that at all." (W3IP)


The manufacturer DOES NOT say use 5 bars of  ALC.   However, it does say 
use 4 bars of audio as displayed on the ALC scale and the 5th bar 
flickering.  This is per the writer of the ALC routine. This prevents 
power hunting.  The actual Automatic Level Control (ALC) starts AFTER 
the 5th bar.


73

Bob, K4TAX

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Dave (NK7Z)]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for sharing your data!!  Help me understand something you said...

Are you saying that at 2 bars, (for your K4), all spurious signals, are 
at least 80 dB down from carrier, while at 5 bars, all spurious signals 
are running around 50 or 60 dB down from carrier?


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 7/23/23 07:23, M Cresap via Elecraft wrote:

For my K4, the FT8 signal is clean with no more than 2 bars of ALC.
To be clear, the spurious responses I have seen with ALC set to 5 bars has NO 
measurable IMD responses. There is only the one strong signal present, the 
spurious signals being discussed here are all less than 50 or 60 dB below the 
intended carrier level. My goal is to reduce all the spurious responses to 80 
dB below the intended carrier level.

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[Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Bob McGraw]

Oh my goodness!

What Don, W3FPR wrote  is 100% correct!

Whomever K3 user told you to EVER use the output control other than MAX at ALL 
TIMES needs to go back to learning.  They are NOT helping you. (NK7I)

I'd go back to what Elecraft says in their manual.  (K9YC)

Again, READ THE K3 OWNERS MANUAL and do what the manufacturer says. (W4TV)


What "others" told is frankly just OLD HAM LORE.  The more it is told the more 
incorrect it becomes.

There is a correct or right way, and there are many incorrect or wrong ways.   
I don't find any in between.
 
Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Rick NK7I]

That the K3 and K4 are clean transmitters (for a 12V final) is awesome for 
everyone on the air.  Elecraft sets the bar again.

But the highly popular JT modes are not the only audio based digital modes used 
these days.  Others are more complex than one continuous phase shifted tone.

With that in mind, there is no reason that comes to mind, why (no matter the 
brand) operators should not set their audio input for max UP TO where ALC 
begins, so that any audio based digital mode stays clean; the transmitter is 
given precisely what it needs to produce output without hunting or ‘coming up 
to power’.

When I select 28 watts, it means I want and expect 28 watts on EVERY 
transmission, EVERY time IMMEDIATELY (to drive an amp where the differences 
become significant).

Anything else, is just sloppy operating and there is already ample numbers of 
sloppy stations.  We can each do our part to not be another (no matter the 
mode).

73,
Rick NK7I

> On Jul 23, 2023, at 7:23 AM, M Cresap via Elecraft  
> wrote:
> 
>  I have been running tests on K3s and K4s to understand the conditions 
> needed to transmit clean FT8 signals. I have previously shared some of my 
> findings with Pete N4ZR and a couple of other folks. Their feedback has been 
> very valuable.
> 
> Joe Taylor, K1JT has shown the spectral purity of the FT4 and FT8 protocols 
> (using WSJT-X version 2.1 and later) to be very clean to 80 dB below the peak 
> signal. See https://wsjt.sourceforge.io/FT4_FT8_QEX.pdf (Figure 3 and related 
> discussion on pages 9 and 10)  and 
> https://www.w2zq.com/wsjt-x-innards-explained-by-joe-taylor-k1jt/ (slide 
> entitled Spectra: RTTY, FT8, FT4). If the WSJT-X operating instructions are 
> followed (use operating mode "Fake-It" or "Split"), there is exactly one 
> clean signal to be transmitted as discussed in the exchanges in this thread 
> https://groups.io/g/Elecraft-K4/message/25371
> I have been endeavoring to ensure that ALL of the FT4 and FT8 spectra purity 
> shown by Joe Taylor can be replicated by my K3 and K4D in the Data A mode - 
> and that the recipe for a clean spectra can be shared with others. Clean FT8 
> spectra is badly needed, especially in metro areas at 10 meters and above, 
> where many poor quality FT8 signals abound and wipe out many of the weaker 
> stations that other stations are trying to receive. Yes, there are 
> suggestions that folks in the same area all transmit at the same time, and 
> many people try it, but in practice, not everyone is on-board with that 
> suggestion. But, there are also stations on the air that transmit very clean 
> FT8 signals every day, so it can be done!
> I shared with Pete that neither my K3 or K4 transmitted the cleanest possible 
> FT8 signal using either analog or USB digital inputs and the conventional 
> setup instructions that have been often repeated on this reflector (i.e. set 
> the audio level so there are 4/5 bars of ALC showing). After I beefed up my 
> DC power cable (it is now 2 feet of #10 wire between the K3 and the power 
> supply), I found that setting the Line In level to the point just before the 
> 1st ALC bar lights up (i.e. Line In = 2 in my case) results in a very clean 
> FT8 signal. As Pete reported, there is a slow increase of RF power output 
> level for 10-20 seconds as the ALC circuit compensates for the lower input 
> level, but apparently the ALC loop remains open, hence the clean signal. 
> 
> For my K4, the FT8 signal is clean with no more than 2 bars of ALC.
> To be clear, the spurious responses I have seen with ALC set to 5 bars has NO 
> measurable IMD responses. There is only the one strong signal present, the 
> spurious signals being discussed here are all less than 50 or 60 dB below the 
> intended carrier level. My goal is to reduce all the spurious responses to 80 
> dB below the intended carrier level.
> 
> The discussion that Pete, N4ZR started several days ago got many responses 
> that could be grouped into three categories:
> 
> 1. "The manufacturer says use 5 bars of ALC, end of story". I don't buy that 
> at all. I have yet to see any manufacturer's DATA on the relationship between 
> their transmit ALC levels (or any other metric) and the in-band spectral 
> purity of an FT8 like signal beyond "meets  FCC spurious signal 
> requirements". 
> 
> 2. "I must be mistaken, my equipment is overloaded, etc". In years past, that 
> would have been a fair criticism, it would have taken hundreds of thousands 
> of $$ worth of calibrated test equipment to prove whether anyone's receiver 
> was overloaded or not. With today's high end receivers (the K4 being one of 
> them), the overload point in every gain state is well known (notably 
> confirmed and publicized by NC0I, Rob Sherwood), and overloaded signals 
> trigger a visible alarm on the radio. The K4 (and I assume other high end 
> receivers with similar architecture) has a repeatable performance (amplitude 
> stability) in showing signal levels to the dB 

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[M Cresap via Elecraft]

 I have been running tests on K3s and K4s to understand the conditions needed 
to transmit clean FT8 signals. I have previously shared some of my findings 
with Pete N4ZR and a couple of other folks. Their feedback has been very 
valuable.

Joe Taylor, K1JT has shown the spectral purity of the FT4 and FT8 protocols 
(using WSJT-X version 2.1 and later) to be very clean to 80 dB below the peak 
signal. See https://wsjt.sourceforge.io/FT4_FT8_QEX.pdf (Figure 3 and related 
discussion on pages 9 and 10)  and 
https://www.w2zq.com/wsjt-x-innards-explained-by-joe-taylor-k1jt/ (slide 
entitled Spectra: RTTY, FT8, FT4). If the WSJT-X operating instructions are 
followed (use operating mode "Fake-It" or "Split"), there is exactly one clean 
signal to be transmitted as discussed in the exchanges in this thread 
https://groups.io/g/Elecraft-K4/message/25371
I have been endeavoring to ensure that ALL of the FT4 and FT8 spectra purity 
shown by Joe Taylor can be replicated by my K3 and K4D in the Data A mode - and 
that the recipe for a clean spectra can be shared with others. Clean FT8 
spectra is badly needed, especially in metro areas at 10 meters and above, 
where many poor quality FT8 signals abound and wipe out many of the weaker 
stations that other stations are trying to receive. Yes, there are suggestions 
that folks in the same area all transmit at the same time, and many people try 
it, but in practice, not everyone is on-board with that suggestion. But, there 
are also stations on the air that transmit very clean FT8 signals every day, so 
it can be done!
I shared with Pete that neither my K3 or K4 transmitted the cleanest possible 
FT8 signal using either analog or USB digital inputs and the conventional setup 
instructions that have been often repeated on this reflector (i.e. set the 
audio level so there are 4/5 bars of ALC showing). After I beefed up my DC 
power cable (it is now 2 feet of #10 wire between the K3 and the power supply), 
I found that setting the Line In level to the point just before the 1st ALC bar 
lights up (i.e. Line In = 2 in my case) results in a very clean FT8 signal. As 
Pete reported, there is a slow increase of RF power output level for 10-20 
seconds as the ALC circuit compensates for the lower input level, but 
apparently the ALC loop remains open, hence the clean signal. 

For my K4, the FT8 signal is clean with no more than 2 bars of ALC.
To be clear, the spurious responses I have seen with ALC set to 5 bars has NO 
measurable IMD responses. There is only the one strong signal present, the 
spurious signals being discussed here are all less than 50 or 60 dB below the 
intended carrier level. My goal is to reduce all the spurious responses to 80 
dB below the intended carrier level.

The discussion that Pete, N4ZR started several days ago got many responses that 
could be grouped into three categories:

1. "The manufacturer says use 5 bars of ALC, end of story". I don't buy that at 
all. I have yet to see any manufacturer's DATA on the relationship between 
their transmit ALC levels (or any other metric) and the in-band spectral purity 
of an FT8 like signal beyond "meets  FCC spurious signal requirements". 

2. "I must be mistaken, my equipment is overloaded, etc". In years past, that 
would have been a fair criticism, it would have taken hundreds of thousands of 
$$ worth of calibrated test equipment to prove whether anyone's receiver was 
overloaded or not. With today's high end receivers (the K4 being one of them), 
the overload point in every gain state is well known (notably confirmed and 
publicized by NC0I, Rob Sherwood), and overloaded signals trigger a visible 
alarm on the radio. The K4 (and I assume other high end receivers with similar 
architecture) has a repeatable performance (amplitude stability) in showing 
signal levels to the dB on a panadapter. To me, external monitors and external 
display programs (like Win4K4) help to visualize and collect data better than 
trying to read the data off the radio's relatively small screen.
3. "Don't use my data, have someone near you with a high end receiver 
/panadapteror a good spectrum analyzer (and who knows how to use it) look at 
your signal". I agree, that is a very sound approach. On 6 meters, a station 
10-20 miles away, and near line of sight should provide a good signal strength 
for analysis by a high end receiver/panadapter.

It is also possible for any transmitter that more than one problems exists, 
beyond the ALC issue. Other potential problems include poor power supply 
regulation, excessive DC voltage drop on transmit, ground loops, or a defective 
phase locked loop. Those problems should be fixed before changes to the ALC 
response is attempted.

The K3 accepts both analog and digital inputs for Data In, with multiple 
generations of I/O boards. I have not tested all of these combinations! Ground 
loops in particular can be challenging to clean up.
I used a Signalhound SA-44B spectrum analyzer and a 

[Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Andy Durbin]

"It will remain as clean as the audio, up to the point the ALC begins to kick 
in; then it goes bad like any other radio.  That’s the fault of ALC, not the 
radio."

What goes bad?  Nothing goes bad for a Kenwood TS-590S when drive level moves 
into the ALC closed loop control range.  Remember that WSJ-X mode are very 
close to constant amplitude so ALC dynamics should not be a factor.  I have no 
idea how ALC works in a K3 but in a Kenwood TS-590S it controls the gain of a 
transmit IF stage.

There are lots of operators in the Phoenix metro area and many of them have 
good equipment and are technically competent.  I'm very willing to run an 
on-air FT8 test in which I drive my TS-590S through the full normal ALC range.  
I'll let my peers judge my signal and if they find any problem with it I'll 
change the way I operate.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Are you sure the "technically-qualified local ham" was not running his
tests in SSB instead of DATA A?  There are more than a few "technically-
qualified" individuals who insist on using SSB instead of DATA_A with
WSJTX and that makes all the difference in the ALC display.

Again, READ THE K3 OWNERS MANUAL and do what the manufacturer says.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

On 7/20/2023 10:33 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
OK guys - rather than reply individually, let me try to pull everything 
together in one message.


In a previous effort at FT8 I followed the standard advice to set the 
power slider in WSJT-X (on the lower RIGHT side) so that my K-3 showed 4 
bars on the ALC meter, just below the threshold for ALC starting, and 
that seemed to work fine.  Then a technically-qualified local ham showed 
me spectrum analyzer images of a K-3 at 4 bars versus at no bars, and 
the difference was startling - the no bars signal was clean and narrow, 
while the 4-bars signal looked like some of those SSB sigs we hear 
during contests, wide and with many artifacts.  I am not going to 
identify my source here, but I'm fairly sure he reads this reflector, so 
maybe he'll join the discussion


Anyway, I'm kind of at sea - WSJT-X works fine with no bars - I've 
finished 12 and 17M, as well as digital DXCC in the last few weeks, 
following his advice.  But the hunting typically takes almost 20 seconds 
of transmitting - roughly 1 1/2 FT-8 cycles - to reach full power - and 
happens every time I change bands, which puts me behind the curve if I 
switch bands, see someone I need, and have to spend 1 1/2 transmit 
cycles getting up to full power before I can call him effectively.


73, Pete N4ZR




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Rick NK7I]

Pete,
I would suspect that the local ham didn’t account for you overdriving his 
receiver (or test set) which would explain why an underdriven signal appeared 
cleaner (no overload).  Had he attenuated your 4 bar signal, it would have been 
clean, I’m 100% certain.

A full audio supplied (just shy of ALC) K3  is clean.  I’ve had mine monitored 
several times with real test equipment, to make sure before I trusted it at QRO 
levels (and checked again in case there was an RFI distortion).  On some radios 
harmonics will appear, but they are internal to the radio, not really on the 
air (overdrive distortion).

It will remain as clean as the audio, up to the point the ALC begins to kick 
in; then it goes bad like any other radio.  That’s the fault of ALC, not the 
radio.

I DX, it’s about the only thing I do on ham radio.  Most of the time at legal 
limit with a high gain antenna (helps to be LOUD, get heard, make the contact, 
fight less) and over the past several years FT8 has been the mode of choice by 
DX teams (limited staff, fast, one op can work 2-3 bands at a time, efficient 
and dreadfully boring).  Had there been an issue, I would have heard about it 
by now; my station is one of several hundred potent signals on the band.

But, you have your answer why it’s hunting power and can choose to operate as 
you see fit as long as you remember that the K3 will try to ‘pull’ more audio 
in order to obtain the power setting, which may be that it pulls in sounds and 
noises (power supply, signals on other sound card or rig noises) not normally 
heard (and looks poor on the output as a result).

My suggestion:  As stated prior for the how, 4 bars of audio drive with the 5th 
barely flickering (WSJT-X at max) and leave it all alone.  Using audio drive on 
a modern rig as an RF output control is misusing the rig and clutters up the 
air.  Leave the ‘power setting’ on WSJT-X at MAX; recheck the collections of 
settings periodically (and ALWAYS after a Windows update, they often do NASTY 
things to audio and USB port settings).

The WSJT-X control is akin to reducing receive signal levels by trimming feet 
of antenna off, instead of using the RF gain control.  It has the same results 
but it’s just not the correct method.

If you do this, you’ll find that the clean output at the power you actually set 
the radio for, will allow other DXCC conclusions in very short order (because 
you’re loud and clean).

The choice is yours.

73,
Rick NK7I

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 7:33 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> OK guys - rather than reply individually, let me try to pull everything 
> together in one message.
> 
> In a previous effort at FT8 I followed the standard advice to set the power 
> slider in WSJT-X (on the lower RIGHT side) so that my K-3 showed 4 bars on 
> the ALC meter, just below the threshold for ALC starting, and that seemed to 
> work fine.  Then a technically-qualified local ham showed me spectrum 
> analyzer images of a K-3 at 4 bars versus at no bars, and the difference was 
> startling - the no bars signal was clean and narrow, while the 4-bars signal 
> looked like some of those SSB sigs we hear during contests, wide and with 
> many artifacts.  I am not going to identify my source here, but I'm fairly 
> sure he reads this reflector, so maybe he'll join the discussion
> 
> Anyway, I'm kind of at sea - WSJT-X works fine with no bars - I've finished 
> 12 and 17M, as well as digital DXCC in the last few weeks, following his 
> advice.  But the hunting typically takes almost 20 seconds of transmitting - 
> roughly 1 1/2 FT-8 cycles - to reach full power - and happens every time I 
> change bands, which puts me behind the curve if I switch bands, see someone I 
> need, and have to spend 1 1/2 transmit cycles getting up to full power before 
> I can call him effectively.
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[David Gilbert]

Sorry, but I would want to see live spectrum displays of my own rig with 
a known hardware setup instead of images of some other K3 with unknown 
K3 settings and unknown test setup.  Hundreds of us have been following 
the just barely flickering 5 bar rule with excellent performance.


You know that you're experiencing power hunting the way you are doing it 
... you don't know that you're generating trash the way everyone else 
does it.


73,
Dave  AB7E



On 7/20/2023 7:33 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
OK guys - rather than reply individually, let me try to pull 
everything together in one message.


In a previous effort at FT8 I followed the standard advice to set the 
power slider in WSJT-X (on the lower RIGHT side) so that my K-3 showed 
4 bars on the ALC meter, just below the threshold for ALC starting, 
and that seemed to work fine.  Then a technically-qualified local ham 
showed me spectrum analyzer images of a K-3 at 4 bars versus at no 
bars, and the difference was startling - the no bars signal was clean 
and narrow, while the 4-bars signal looked like some of those SSB sigs 
we hear during contests, wide and with many artifacts.  I am not going 
to identify my source here, but I'm fairly sure he reads this 
reflector, so maybe he'll join the discussion


Anyway, I'm kind of at sea - WSJT-X works fine with no bars - I've 
finished 12 and 17M, as well as digital DXCC in the last few weeks, 
following his advice.  But the hunting typically takes almost 20 
seconds of transmitting - roughly 1 1/2 FT-8 cycles - to reach full 
power - and happens every time I change bands, which puts me behind 
the curve if I switch bands, see someone I need, and have to spend 1 
1/2 transmit cycles getting up to full power before I can call him 
effectively.


73, Pete N4ZR


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Walter Underwood]

I recommend finding someone with a P3 or other spectrum display and trying this 
on *your* K3 rather than looking at pictures of “a K3”. Running with 
insufficient audio drive, which is what you are doing, has known problems, 
which you are experiencing.

I would be glad to do it with my KX3 and PX3, but I’m on the other side of the 
US.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 7:33 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> OK guys - rather than reply individually, let me try to pull everything 
> together in one message.
> 
> In a previous effort at FT8 I followed the standard advice to set the power 
> slider in WSJT-X (on the lower RIGHT side) so that my K-3 showed 4 bars on 
> the ALC meter, just below the threshold for ALC starting, and that seemed to 
> work fine.  Then a technically-qualified local ham showed me spectrum 
> analyzer images of a K-3 at 4 bars versus at no bars, and the difference was 
> startling - the no bars signal was clean and narrow, while the 4-bars signal 
> looked like some of those SSB sigs we hear during contests, wide and with 
> many artifacts.  I am not going to identify my source here, but I'm fairly 
> sure he reads this reflector, so maybe he'll join the discussion
> 
> Anyway, I'm kind of at sea - WSJT-X works fine with no bars - I've finished 
> 12 and 17M, as well as digital DXCC in the last few weeks, following his 
> advice.  But the hunting typically takes almost 20 seconds of transmitting - 
> roughly 1 1/2 FT-8 cycles - to reach full power - and happens every time I 
> change bands, which puts me behind the curve if I switch bands, see someone I 
> need, and have to spend 1 1/2 transmit cycles getting up to full power before 
> I can call him effectively.
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

OK guys - rather than reply individually, let me try to pull everything 
together in one message.


In a previous effort at FT8 I followed the standard advice to set the 
power slider in WSJT-X (on the lower RIGHT side) so that my K-3 showed 4 
bars on the ALC meter, just below the threshold for ALC starting, and 
that seemed to work fine.  Then a technically-qualified local ham showed 
me spectrum analyzer images of a K-3 at 4 bars versus at no bars, and 
the difference was startling - the no bars signal was clean and narrow, 
while the 4-bars signal looked like some of those SSB sigs we hear 
during contests, wide and with many artifacts.  I am not going to 
identify my source here, but I'm fairly sure he reads this reflector, so 
maybe he'll join the discussion


Anyway, I'm kind of at sea - WSJT-X works fine with no bars - I've 
finished 12 and 17M, as well as digital DXCC in the last few weeks, 
following his advice.  But the hunting typically takes almost 20 seconds 
of transmitting - roughly 1 1/2 FT-8 cycles - to reach full power - and 
happens every time I change bands, which puts me behind the curve if I 
switch bands, see someone I need, and have to spend 1 1/2 transmit 
cycles getting up to full power before I can call him effectively.


73, Pete N4ZR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Rick NK7I]

Hi Jim,

Maybe you’d feel better knowing that with WSJT-X at max; I had always adjusted 
the OS driver level plus the rig levels, starting mid range on both.  And from 
midway, find the right blend to get the level to be proper with neither control 
at (or near) max so nobody shouts and no one strains to hear.

That method has worked well for me, for many years now.  With that added 
background, I stand by what I said.  Set it to MAX and forget it. 

Adding more display controls opens the door to added confusion with poor 
signals by those who do not know what they’re doing in the first place.  
Eliminating the “power control” would be a step in the right direction; it only 
adds confusion, misunderstanding and poor signals.  Audio level tweaking to 
adjust RF output is a poor method [on a modern radio].

Using the right controls (driver out —> rig input), as they were designed to be 
used is enough, adding more just mungs things up.

So I suspect we actually agree.

73,
Rick NK7I

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 3:42 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 7/20/2023 2:47 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
>> s said MANY times, set the WSJT-X output to MAX, then IGNORE IT.
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> This is the only part of your excellent advice that I disagree with. The 
> reason is that the analog stages of computer gear tend to be poor, and start 
> generating increased distortion well below clip. My advice is to run analog 
> outputs of computer gear 6 dB below clip.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Jim Brown]

On 7/20/2023 2:47 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:

s said MANY times, set the WSJT-X output to MAX, then IGNORE IT.


Hi Rick,

This is the only part of your excellent advice that I disagree with. The 
reason is that the analog stages of computer gear tend to be poor, and 
start generating increased distortion well below clip. My advice is to 
run analog outputs of computer gear 6 dB below clip.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Jim Brown]

On 7/20/2023 2:16 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, 
have been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of 
or just into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I was 
advised that setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in 
the FT8 passband.  I am running the K3 in Data A mode


I saw that post, and suspected at the time that you got bum advice. 
That's why it's power-hunting. I'd go back to what Elecraft says in 
their manual.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Dan Violette]

Yes, it hunts for a couple seconds first time on a change (freq, mode,
power, turn on).  Elecraft mentioned it has to do with it setting its power
level (it works a bit to get stabilized and not noticed normally).  After
the first TX time it will be fine.

 

Dan KI6X

 

Message: 14

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:16:47 -0400

From: Pete Smith N4ZR mailto:pete.n...@gmail.com> >

To: Elecraft List mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net> >

Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

Message-ID: mailto:caff765b-c334-0990-072f-a2e7f1632...@gmail.com> >

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

 

I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, have
been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of or just
into the first flickers of ALC.? I did this because I was advised that
setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in the FT8
passband.? I am running the K3 in Data A mode

 

Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from my K3.?
When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just switched to the
current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or the PWR control on my
K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at zero and slowly ramps up
through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.? Once it reaches the expected level,
subsequent transmissions stay at that level.

 

I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the K3's
firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and
repetitious behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to expect
from my K3.? It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's going on?

 

-- 

73, Pete N4ZR

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Rick NK7I]

Whomever K3 user told you to EVER use the output control other than MAX at ALL 
TIMES needs to go back to learning.  They are NOT helping you.

The WSJT-X output control is an AUDIO control, not an RF output control.
On any rig made since 1985, one wants to adjust the RF for RF and the audio for 
audio.

As said MANY times, set the WSJT-X output to MAX, then IGNORE IT.  FOREVER.  It 
is one stupid flaw in an otherwise brilliant application.  Audio drive is NOT 
the way to manage RF output on any modern radio.

Then adjust the audio during transmit (test mode) to 4 bars on the ALC, “just” 
tickling the 5th bar.  That is the place that the K3 ALC begins.  [If you 
undershoot the audio level, the K3 still attempts to reach that power output, 
but the results may not be pleasing to others on the air.]

Now when you send, the K3 will put out the power you choose and the signal will 
be clean and stable.

You set the output power with the RF output control, not a garage door opener.  
Right tool, right job.

It’s REALLY frustrating to see this reappearing EVERY year; the K3 is not a JA 
radio, it manages things differently and generally better.  One would think 
that after so many years the misinformation would fade out.

So now YOU know how to set the audio on the K3 and will be cleaner than those 
who attempted to mislead you with false information.

This method holds true on ANY audio based digital mode (like AFSK, PSK…).

73,
Rick NK7I

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, have 
> been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of or just 
> into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I was advised that 
> setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in the FT8 passband. 
>  I am running the K3 in Data A mode
> 
> Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from my K3.  
> When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just switched to the 
> current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or the PWR control on my 
> K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at zero and slowly ramps up 
> through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.  Once it reaches the expected level, 
> subsequent transmissions stay at that level.
> 
> I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the K3's 
> firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and repetitious 
> behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to expect from my K3.  
> It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's going on?
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[W3FPR]

Pete,

Set the audio level to make the first 4 bars of the ALC meter solid with 
the 5th bar just flickering.
The K3 ALC onset is at the 5th bar, the bars below it are an aid to 
adjusting the audio properly for digital modes.


Your advice from "other K3 users" is not correct.  ALC starts at the 5th 
bar, so if they meant set it for no ALC, that may have been what they meant.


Yes, not enough audio will cause power hunting.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/20/2023 5:16 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 
users, have been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just 
short of or just into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I 
was advised that setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated 
junk in the FT8 passband.  I am running the K3 in Data A mode


Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from 
my K3.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Fred Jensen]

Pete:

The first 4 bars on the K3 ALC are just an audio level indication [i.e. 
VU meter].  ALC action starts at the 5th bar, which you want to be just 
flickering.  Unless you have 4 solid bars, the K3 will keep trying to 
adjust the TX gain to achieve the selected output power and it may not 
be able to get there with such low audio input, hence the "hunting."


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Pete Smith N4ZR wrote on 7/20/2023 2:16 PM:
I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 
users, have been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just 
short of or just into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I 
was advised that setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated 
junk in the FT8 passband.  I am running the K3 in Data A mode


Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from 
my K3.  When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just 
switched to the current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or 
the PWR control on my K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at 
zero and slowly ramps up through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.  Once 
it reaches the expected level, subsequent transmissions stay at that 
level.


I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the 
K3's firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and 
repetitious behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to 
expect from my K3.  It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's 
going on?






--
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Walter Underwood]

By “first flickers of ALC” do you mean one bar flickering? If so, that will 
cause power hunting.

Not sure who advised against setting it at the 4th bar, but that was probably 
bad advice. That sounds like advice for non-Elecraft transmitters. I recommend 
following the setup instructions on pages 31 and 32 of the manual.

https://ftp.elecraft.com/K3/Manuals Downloads/E740107 K3 Owner's man D10.pdf 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 2:16 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, have 
> been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of or just 
> into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I was advised that 
> setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in the FT8 passband. 
>  I am running the K3 in Data A mode
> 
> Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from my K3.  
> When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just switched to the 
> current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or the PWR control on my 
> K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at zero and slowly ramps up 
> through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.  Once it reaches the expected level, 
> subsequent transmissions stay at that level.
> 
> I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the K3's 
> firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and repetitious 
> behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to expect from my K3.  
> It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's going on?
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Paul Maciel]

Hi Peter,

Setting the ALC for FT8 is different than other transceivers due to the way the 
K3 adjusts power.

You should adjust the slider to give four solid bars and the fifth flickering.  
You find the outputvwull be ver stable then. 

See you on the bands!
—-Paul AK1P 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:18 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, have 
> been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of or just 
> into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I was advised that 
> setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in the FT8 passband. 
>  I am running the K3 in Data A mode
> 
> Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from my K3.  
> When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just switched to the 
> current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or the PWR control on my 
> K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at zero and slowly ramps up 
> through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.  Once it reaches the expected level, 
> subsequent transmissions stay at that level.
> 
> I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the K3's 
> firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and repetitious 
> behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to expect from my K3.  
> It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's going on?
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
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[Elecraft] K3 Power-hunting on FT8

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

I've recently started operating FT8, and on advice from other K3 users, 
have been adjusting the power slider in WSJT-X to a level just short of 
or just into the first flickers of ALC.  I did this because I was 
advised that setting the slider for 4 or 5 bars of ALC generated junk in 
the FT8 passband.  I am running the K3 in Data A mode


Since I did this, I've noticed strange (to me, anyway) behavior from my 
K3.  When WSJT-X starts an FT8 transmit cycle, after I have just 
switched to the current band or changed the power slider in WSJT-X or 
the PWR control on my K-3, the K3's power output starts essentially at 
zero and slowly ramps up through 1- 1 1/2 FT8 transmit cycles.  Once it 
reaches the expected level, subsequent transmissions stay at that level.


I've been told (not by Elecraft) that this behavior is a result of the 
K3's firmware "hunting" for the right power level, but such a slow and 
repetitious behavior doesn't fit with the rest of what I've come to 
expect from my K3.  It doesn't happen on CW or SSB either. So what's 
going on?


--
73, Pete N4ZR
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[Elecraft] K3 power supply

[István Szabó]

I have been using my silent SPA 8230 power supply for many years. Its mains
switch started show contact errors, would like to replace it. As QRP Shop
Biz in Germany closed last year need help to find where can I find switch
replacement. Could you please help with the switch type and manufacturer as
its size quite small?
73, István ha4zd
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Re: [Elecraft] K1 power output

[Ingo Meyer DK3RED]

Hello Dave,



I have a K1 that I’m looking to sell, and took a look at the power output 
before listing it.  Power output is as follows:

40 meters 5.2 watts
30 meters 4.5 watts
20 meters   1.3 watts
17 meters 0.7 watts

These are obviously not the expected power output levels.  Power supply voltage 
= 12.8 volts.  Output set to 7 in the menu.

What type of fault would this indicate?


All components for the filters for 40 meters and 30 meters filters are located between 
same contacts sides of K5A/K5B and K6A/K6B. The components for 20 meters and 17 meters are 
located all on the other sides of these relais contacts.


I therefore advise you to check the contacts of these relays as a first step. If you have 
switched the K1 to 40 meters or 30 meters, zero ohms should be measurable with an ohmmeter 
across the contact.



73/72 de Ingo, DK3RED - Don't forget: the fun is the power!
www.qrp4fun.de - dk3...@qrp4fun.de
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Re: [Elecraft] K1 power output

[DAVID MOORMAN]

Numbers using the Elecraft 20 watt dummy load rather than resonated antennas:

40 M   4.8 W
30 M   5.5 W
20 M2.0 W
15 M1.7 W

Dave  K9SW


> On May 11, 2023, at 6:52 PM, DAVID MOORMAN  wrote:
> 
> I have a K1 that I’m looking to sell, and took a look at the power output 
> before listing it.  Power output is as follows:
> 
> 40 meters 5.2 watts
> 30 meters 4.5 watts
> 20 meters 1.3 watts
> 17 meters 0.7 watts
> 
> These are obviously not the expected power output levels.  Power supply 
> voltage = 12.8 volts.  Output set to 7 in the menu.  
> 
> What type of fault would this indicate?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave  K9SW
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Re: [Elecraft] K1 power output

[Vincent Shu]

Hello David,

The same issue also exists in my two K1. Waiting for help
73,

Vincent BH5HTF
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[Elecraft] K1 power output

[DAVID MOORMAN]

I have a K1 that I’m looking to sell, and took a look at the power output 
before listing it.  Power output is as follows:

40 meters 5.2 watts
30 meters 4.5 watts
20 meters   1.3 watts
17 meters 0.7 watts

These are obviously not the expected power output levels.  Power supply voltage 
= 12.8 volts.  Output set to 7 in the menu.  

What type of fault would this indicate?

Thanks,

Dave  K9SW
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[jerry]

On 2022-08-14 08:43, Dick Dievendorff wrote:

The KPA1500 power supply container houses several power supplies. Only
a small one is on all the time. It can run a microcontroller and
switch the larger supplies, but not much else.


*** And with good reason.  It's hard to switch say 65Amps at 50V ( I 
don't know
the exact voltage of the PA, but 50 - 53V is common ).  And PA's are 
very sensitive to voltage

drop.  The less, the better.

   I have a very quiet homebrew amp with a remote mounted power supply.  
The supply lives
in a box under the bed.  Right now I duck under the bed to turn it on & 
off.  I have a high power
12V relay on the bench.  I plan to put that relay at the AC line input 
and use a separate 12V power
supply to power it.  A couple of wires to the RF deck going to a little 
tiny toggle switch on
the front panel.  Two other small wires will also go to the power supply 
to talk to it via CAN bus,
which can monitor output current and two power supply temperatures.  I 
*could* extend the CAN bus
to a processor to control the power input relay, but I don't want to 
work that hard :).


 - Jerry, KF6VB





The 50V and 12v supplies are switched completely off when the amp is
“off”. The fans are associated with the 50v supply.

It’s like a TV set that can be operated by a remote control. Or a wall
power switch that can be turned on by a microcontroller.

73 de Dick, K6KR


On Aug 14, 2022, at 08:17, Rick Tavan  wrote:

I leave my KPA1500 PS on continuously, whether I'm local or remote. 
No

observed ill effects. When the amp is off, the PS is silent. I haven't
measured its current drain in that condition but I expect it is 
minimal. I
have a remote relay box that I could use to key a larger relay in the 
230V

AC supply line but I don't see any need to do that.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:30 AM Jorge Diez - CX6VM 


wrote:

Hello!

when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which 
it

could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
the power supply?

Is it thought and designed to withstand this?

Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?

thanks!

--
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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--
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee and Saratoga, CA
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[Dick Dievendorff]

The KPA1500 power supply container houses several power supplies. Only a small 
one is on all the time. It can run a microcontroller and switch the larger 
supplies, but not much else.

The 50V and 12v supplies are switched completely off when the amp is “off”. The 
fans are associated with the 50v supply.

It’s like a TV set that can be operated by a remote control. Or a wall power 
switch that can be turned on by a microcontroller.  

73 de Dick, K6KR

> On Aug 14, 2022, at 08:17, Rick Tavan  wrote:
> 
> I leave my KPA1500 PS on continuously, whether I'm local or remote. No
> observed ill effects. When the amp is off, the PS is silent. I haven't
> measured its current drain in that condition but I expect it is minimal. I
> have a remote relay box that I could use to key a larger relay in the 230V
> AC supply line but I don't see any need to do that.
> 
> 73,
> 
> /Rick N6XI
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:30 AM Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello!
>> 
>> when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which it
>> could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
>> the power supply?
>> 
>> Is it thought and designed to withstand this?
>> 
>> Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?
>> 
>> thanks!
>> 
>> --
>> 73,
>> Jorge
>> CX6VM/CW5W
>> __
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>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> 
> Rick Tavan
> Truckee and Saratoga, CA
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[Rick Tavan]

I leave my KPA1500 PS on continuously, whether I'm local or remote. No
observed ill effects. When the amp is off, the PS is silent. I haven't
measured its current drain in that condition but I expect it is minimal. I
have a remote relay box that I could use to key a larger relay in the 230V
AC supply line but I don't see any need to do that.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:30 AM Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:

> Hello!
>
> when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which it
> could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
> the power supply?
>
> Is it thought and designed to withstand this?
>
> Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?
>
> thanks!
>
> --
> 73,
> Jorge
> CX6VM/CW5W
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-- 
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee and Saratoga, CA
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello Lou

thanks very much for the information!

73,
Jorge


El dom, 14 ago 2022 a las 11:13, Lou Laderman ()
escribió:

> Here’s a thread from the Flex Community regarding remote relay setups to
> control power to 220v amps with some good ideas.
>
>
> https://community.flexradio.com/discussion/8023204/remote-220-240vac-switch#latest
>
> I built a remote 220v power switch using this relay from Amazon
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FCJ39QR?psc=1=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
>
> I’m using an old 110v to 12v wall wort that’s plugged into one of the
> receptacles on a Digital Loggers web pro switch to control the relay. Works
> extremely well. It’s behind my router so if my network goes down I can’t
> access it directly. There are web switches available that can be directly
> accessed if that’s an important need for you.
>
> 73. Lou W0FK
>
> Lou Laderman
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Aug 14, 2022, at 8:29 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which it
> could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
> the power supply?
>
> Is it thought and designed to withstand this?
>
> Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?
>
> thanks!
>
> --
> 73,
> Jorge
> CX6VM/CW5W
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-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[Lou Laderman via Elecraft]

Here’s a thread from the Flex Community regarding remote relay setups to 
control power to 220v amps with some good ideas.

https://community.flexradio.com/discussion/8023204/remote-220-240vac-switch#latest

I built a remote 220v power switch using this relay from Amazon 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FCJ39QR?psc=1=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

I’m using an old 110v to 12v wall wort that’s plugged into one of the 
receptacles on a Digital Loggers web pro switch to control the relay. Works 
extremely well. It’s behind my router so if my network goes down I can’t access 
it directly. There are web switches available that can be directly accessed if 
that’s an important need for you.

73. Lou W0FK

Lou Laderman
Sent from my mobile device 

On Aug 14, 2022, at 8:29 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM  wrote:

Hello!

when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which it
could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
the power supply?

Is it thought and designed to withstand this?

Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?

thanks!

-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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[Elecraft] KPA1500 power supply (remote)

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello!

when you use the KPA1500 remotely, the power is always on. With which it
could spend several years on continuously. Could this be harmful to
the power supply?

Is it thought and designed to withstand this?

Is there a way to turn the power on and off remotely?

thanks!

-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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[Elecraft] Elecraft] Power reduced

[Arthur Nienhouse]

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Re: [Elecraft] KX1 Power Switch

[Don Wilhelm]

Dwayne,

I believe Elecraft has replacement switches.
You can try reversing the switch, only one side is used - remove it and 
turn it around.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/13/2022 11:25 AM, Dwayne Barbee via Elecraft wrote:

The power switch for my KX1 has stopped working, does anyone know of a 
reputable source for a replacement? Thanks!

Dwayne KE4RVT

Sent from my iPhone
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[Elecraft] KX1 Power Switch

[Dwayne Barbee via Elecraft]

The power switch for my KX1 has stopped working, does anyone know of a 
reputable source for a replacement? Thanks!

Dwayne KE4RVT

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Ed Cole]

There are situations when running a driver at it full output is 
desirable.  Or when running at very low output is not as stable.


Two examples:

I have a 6-dB 30w attenuator on the input of my 2m 1500w LDMOS Amp 
(MRF1K50H) which ensures that my 25w transverter will not overdrive the 
amp.  The attenuator is a small board with high power resistors obtained 
from W6PQL:

http://www.kl7uw.com/2M_W6PQL_1500W_PA.jpg

My 600w 1296 amp requires 10w drive and is 100-foot from the 
transverter.  The LMR600 line loss is 6-dB so I use a 3-dB chip 
attenuator to get a stable 1.5w drive into the 10w driver at the amp:

http://www.kl7uw.com/23cm_driver_1.jpg

That allows me to run my transverter at 12w in the shack (max output is 
18w).


Of course I am using a K3 with KXV3 to drive to my transverter (no 
overshoot).  No external ALC for the K3.


73, Ed - KL7UW
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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Jim Brown]

On 1/1/2022 1:12 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I follow the SPE Expert list and I never understood their reasoning for
running 100 watt radios at full power and relying on ALC to control the
output. I never use ALC. I thought relying it can cause splatter. 


YES!


I I am a big fan of the TelePost LP-100A. 


Me too.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[jerry]

On 2022-01-01 13:12, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I follow the SPE Expert list and I never understood their reasoning for
running 100 watt radios at full power and relying on ALC to control the
output. I never use ALC.


*** I am building a 600W LDMOS linear.  An input of 5-8 watts gives full 
output.
The maker of the RF deck ( dxworld-e ) recommends putting a 10dB 
attenuator at the input, to get a better match to the typical 100W 
exciter and protect the LDMOS.


   I was reluctant to do it, because I'll be throwing away 10dB of gain 
and also
putting more heat inside the box.  But I do want to preserve the 
devices.  So I
ordered a 10dB resistive attenuator on Ebay - it just looks like a flat 
ceramic pack with a lead at each side, and a plate to bolt it down.  
I'll bolt it to the linear's

big heatsink.

   - Jerry KF6VB


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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[john]

I follow the SPE Expert list and I never understood their reasoning for
running 100 watt radios at full power and relying on ALC to control the
output. I never use ALC. I thought relying it can cause splatter. There are
a lot of failed LDMOS posts on the SPE list.

If the SPE amp watt meter is before the tuner it would make sense to use an
external meter. I am a big fan of the TelePost LP-100A.

73,
John KK9A

Bill Frantz AE6JV wrote:

After reading all the comments on this thread, I think that 
Skip, K6DWG and Bob, K4TAX have the best theory of what 
happened. Careful reading of the SPE 1.3K manual indicates that 
the power output of the amp is sampled between the amp and the 
internal tuner and that the recommended tune power is 30W.

So the idea that the tuner could have gotten into a state where 
it ate the output power is at least credible. I would expect a 
KW dissipated in the tuner to have damaged it, but fortunately 
that does not seem to have happened.

The manual strongly recommends setting the exciter radio (my K3) 
to maximum power output and trusting the ALC to set the correct 
drive power. Many here, including me, will disagree. However, as 
a result of this recommendation, the manuel doesn't really 
address the drive power issue.

Please note that the antenna is driven through coax and not open 
wire or ladder line, so theories based on those feed lines don't apply.

Thanks to everyone who replied. This list is a wonderful resource.

73 Bill AE6JV

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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Dave]

I think in today’s technology, any amp recommending to run the radio at full 
power and expecting the ALC to protect the amp is a joke. It may not be fast 
enough to protect the LDMOS device. 

SPE America has a history of pointing the finger at the radio having a power 
overshoot as the cause of LDMOS failures. Why did SPE now come out with a 
version 3 of the amp which redesigns the LDMOS input to help protect against 
accidental overdrive.? 

Why run a radio at full power if you have a radio that can be adjusted to the 
proper drive level per band? 

Dave wo2x

Sent from my waxed string and tin cans. 

> On Dec 31, 2021, at 11:51 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
> 
> After reading all the comments on this thread, I think that Skip, K6DWG and 
> Bob, K4TAX have the best theory of what happened. Careful reading of the SPE 
> 1.3K manual indicates that the power output of the amp is sampled between the 
> amp and the internal tuner and that the recommended tune power is 30W.
> 
> So the idea that the tuner could have gotten into a state where it ate the 
> output power is at least credible. I would expect a KW dissipated in the 
> tuner to have damaged it, but fortunately that does not seem to have happened.
> 
> The manual strongly recommends setting the exciter radio (my K3) to maximum 
> power output and trusting the ALC to set the correct drive power. Many here, 
> including me, will disagree. However, as a result of this recommendation, the 
> manuel doesn't really address the drive power issue.
> 
> Please note that the antenna is driven through coax and not open wire or 
> ladder line, so theories based on those feed lines don't apply.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who replied. This list is a wonderful resource.
> 
> 73 Bill AE6JV
> 
>> On 12/27/21 at 2:48 PM, fra...@pwpconsult.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
>> 
>> I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
>> more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I tried
>> could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
>> although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed to be
>> redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.
>> 
>> After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since operators calling 
>> CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. Some of these operators had 
>> worked other stations, so I knew their radios were basically working. I 
>> tried maybe a half a dozen stations.
>> 
>> Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
>> and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
>> check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
>> minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX. Thanks to
>> both of them.
>> 
>> My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the antenna was
>> eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice seem a
>> reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love to come up
>> with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in the future.
>> 
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
> 
> ---
> Bill Frantz| When all else fails:  | Periwinkle
> (408)348-7900  | Voice and CW. | 150 Rivermead Rd #235
> www.pwpconsult.com |   | Peterborough, NH 03458
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Bill Frantz]

After reading all the comments on this thread, I think that 
Skip, K6DWG and Bob, K4TAX have the best theory of what 
happened. Careful reading of the SPE 1.3K manual indicates that 
the power output of the amp is sampled between the amp and the 
internal tuner and that the recommended tune power is 30W.


So the idea that the tuner could have gotten into a state where 
it ate the output power is at least credible. I would expect a 
KW dissipated in the tuner to have damaged it, but fortunately 
that does not seem to have happened.


The manual strongly recommends setting the exciter radio (my K3) 
to maximum power output and trusting the ALC to set the correct 
drive power. Many here, including me, will disagree. However, as 
a result of this recommendation, the manuel doesn't really 
address the drive power issue.


Please note that the antenna is driven through coax and not open 
wire or ladder line, so theories based on those feed lines don't apply.


Thanks to everyone who replied. This list is a wonderful resource.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 12/27/21 at 2:48 PM, fra...@pwpconsult.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:


I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I tried
could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed to be
redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since 
operators calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. 
Some of these operators had worked other stations, so I knew 
their radios were basically working. I tried maybe a half a 
dozen stations.


Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX. Thanks to
both of them.

My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the antenna was
eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice seem a
reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love to come up
with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in the future.

73 Bill AE6JV


---
Bill Frantz| When all else fails:  | Periwinkle
(408)348-7900  | Voice and CW. | 150 Rivermead 
Rd #235
www.pwpconsult.com |   | Peterborough, 
NH 03458


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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Jim Brown]

On 12/31/2021 2:35 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

I think N7WS has shown that when that window transmission line gets wet, its 
loss goes way up.


Yes. Excellent lab-quality experimental work done many years ago. It's 
in one of the ARRL Compendiums of technical papers. He set up runs, got 
them wet, and measured loss.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Al Lorona]

Happy New Year,

I think N7WS has shown that when that window transmission line gets wet, its 
loss goes way up. So some of the change you are seeing in rain/snow conditions 
could be due to this higher loss.

Al  W6LX/4


>
> My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my
> balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It
> accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see
> is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of
> a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed
> electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under
> matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.
> Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book
> say.  Again, either wet or dry.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Edward Mccann]

Lyn:

Can you comment on the balun you are using between OWL and the KAT500 -
Specs, etc?

Thanks 
 Ed McCann
AG6CX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 28, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Lyn Norstad  wrote:
> 
> Bob -
> 
> I don't have the tower issue, but my OWL comes into the house thru soffit 
> vent spaces (the metal vent has been replaced by a plywood panel), runs over 
> ceiling joists (wood) to the balun and short coax to the KAT500.  I bought a 
> 300 foot piece, and used about half.
> 
> https://www.trueladderline.com/w7fg-design-600-ohm-open-wire-feedline/
> 
> 73
> Lyn, W0LEN
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Bob McGraw [mailto:rmcg...@benlomand.net] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 12:27 PM
> To: l...@lnainc.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
> 
> Yes, I agree that true open wire line does not have that issue. However, 
> in as much as I have the feed-line from the antenna, standing off of the 
> tower some 18", entering through an eve vent, then through the attic 
> supported under the wood roof rafters, and dropping down through the 
> ceiling to my operating position, using true open wire line would be a 
> challenge.  In my installation, I add 10 twists per 10 ft so as to 
> minimize any adjacent item causing unbalance plus minimize any wind 
> loading.  With true open wire line, this would be a challenge.
> 
> I've used this system for more than 25 years with a great deal of 
> success and very little to zero issues.  It is just ones understanding 
> the need for a slight adjustment of the ATU values to compensate for 
> weather changes.  No different than frequency changes.  The KPA500 or 
> the KAT in the radio handles any needed changes 100%.  The currents in 
> each side of the line are balanced to 5% or better and there is no 
> measurable common mode current.
> 
> I wish more hams understood this and they would likely have better 
> antenna systems, as opposed to some of the haywire crap I've see at some 
> QTH locations.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
>> On 12/28/2021 11:46 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:
>> Bob -
>> 
>> Should you ever feel the need to replace your feedline, open wire line will 
>> solve that problem.
>> 
>> 73
>> Lyn, W0LEN
>> 
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw
>> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2021 7:36 PM
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
>> 
>> I doubt that ice on the antenna would have any effect in terms of
>> increased loss.   However, I would expect the resonant frequency to
>> change and thus the need to adjust the tuner.   If it is and ATU /
>> automated tuner, then perhaps a bit too low power may cause the SWR
>> bridge to read incorrectly.
>> 
>> I use a KAT500 and my TUNE power is 20 watts.  This assures the ATU and
>> SWR circuits have adequate signal to perform the desired function.   As
>> to the SPE 1.3K amp, as fussy as they are, I'm surprised it didn't trip
>> off line.
>> 
>> My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my
>> balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It
>> accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see
>> is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of
>> a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed
>> electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under
>> matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.
>> Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book
>> say.  Again, either wet or dry.
>> 
>> 73
>> 
>> Bob, K4TAX
>> 
>>> On 12/27/2021 4:10 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>> Message: 21
>>> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:10:25 -0800
>>> From: Fred Jensen
>>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
>>> Message-ID:<8c012d97-f62d-b342-4ec3-20db2e8f5...@gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>> 
>>> I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major
>>> effects [well, except for weight].? Ice forming from water directly from
>>> the sky is a pretty good insulator.? We had a very large Log-Periodic on
>>> the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote
>>> northern interior of KL7.? Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the
>>>

Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Lyn Norstad]

Bob -

I don't have the tower issue, but my OWL comes into the house thru soffit vent 
spaces (the metal vent has been replaced by a plywood panel), runs over ceiling 
joists (wood) to the balun and short coax to the KAT500.  I bought a 300 foot 
piece, and used about half.

https://www.trueladderline.com/w7fg-design-600-ohm-open-wire-feedline/

73
Lyn, W0LEN


-Original Message-
From: Bob McGraw [mailto:rmcg...@benlomand.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 12:27 PM
To: l...@lnainc.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

Yes, I agree that true open wire line does not have that issue. However, 
in as much as I have the feed-line from the antenna, standing off of the 
tower some 18", entering through an eve vent, then through the attic 
supported under the wood roof rafters, and dropping down through the 
ceiling to my operating position, using true open wire line would be a 
challenge.  In my installation, I add 10 twists per 10 ft so as to 
minimize any adjacent item causing unbalance plus minimize any wind 
loading.  With true open wire line, this would be a challenge.

I've used this system for more than 25 years with a great deal of 
success and very little to zero issues.  It is just ones understanding 
the need for a slight adjustment of the ATU values to compensate for 
weather changes.  No different than frequency changes.  The KPA500 or 
the KAT in the radio handles any needed changes 100%.  The currents in 
each side of the line are balanced to 5% or better and there is no 
measurable common mode current.

I wish more hams understood this and they would likely have better 
antenna systems, as opposed to some of the haywire crap I've see at some 
QTH locations.

Thanks

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 12/28/2021 11:46 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:
> Bob -
>
> Should you ever feel the need to replace your feedline, open wire line will 
> solve that problem.
>
> 73
> Lyn, W0LEN
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2021 7:36 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
>
> I doubt that ice on the antenna would have any effect in terms of
> increased loss.   However, I would expect the resonant frequency to
> change and thus the need to adjust the tuner.   If it is and ATU /
> automated tuner, then perhaps a bit too low power may cause the SWR
> bridge to read incorrectly.
>
> I use a KAT500 and my TUNE power is 20 watts.  This assures the ATU and
> SWR circuits have adequate signal to perform the desired function.   As
> to the SPE 1.3K amp, as fussy as they are, I'm surprised it didn't trip
> off line.
>
> My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my
> balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It
> accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see
> is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of
> a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed
> electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under
> matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.
> Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book
> say.  Again, either wet or dry.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 12/27/2021 4:10 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>> Message: 21
>> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:10:25 -0800
>> From: Fred Jensen
>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
>> Message-ID:<8c012d97-f62d-b342-4ec3-20db2e8f5...@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>> I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major
>> effects [well, except for weight].? Ice forming from water directly from
>> the sky is a pretty good insulator.? We had a very large Log-Periodic on
>> the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote
>> northern interior of KL7.? Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the
>> elements in the dead of winter, much of which was -35 C or below.? In
>> the so-called spring, solid ice would form on them, and there was
>> essentially no perceptible change in the antenna performance.? If your
>> ATU wasn't getting enough power to tune, it was probably "eating your
>> power" rather than the ice on the antenna.
>>
>> At home, I have an HOA "WOOF" antenna [Wire On Organic Fence] at about 2
>> m AGL.? We've been having a series of snowstorms, the top of the fence,
>> including the wire, was encased in snow yesterday for the 40 m ECN, and
>> it worked as good as it ever does.
>>
&

Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Bob McGraw]

Yes, I agree that true open wire line does not have that issue. However, 
in as much as I have the feed-line from the antenna, standing off of the 
tower some 18", entering through an eve vent, then through the attic 
supported under the wood roof rafters, and dropping down through the 
ceiling to my operating position, using true open wire line would be a 
challenge.  In my installation, I add 10 twists per 10 ft so as to 
minimize any adjacent item causing unbalance plus minimize any wind 
loading.  With true open wire line, this would be a challenge.


I've used this system for more than 25 years with a great deal of 
success and very little to zero issues.  It is just ones understanding 
the need for a slight adjustment of the ATU values to compensate for 
weather changes.  No different than frequency changes.  The KPA500 or 
the KAT in the radio handles any needed changes 100%.  The currents in 
each side of the line are balanced to 5% or better and there is no 
measurable common mode current.


I wish more hams understood this and they would likely have better 
antenna systems, as opposed to some of the haywire crap I've see at some 
QTH locations.


Thanks

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 12/28/2021 11:46 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

Bob -

Should you ever feel the need to replace your feedline, open wire line will 
solve that problem.

73
Lyn, W0LEN

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

I doubt that ice on the antenna would have any effect in terms of
increased loss.   However, I would expect the resonant frequency to
change and thus the need to adjust the tuner.   If it is and ATU /
automated tuner, then perhaps a bit too low power may cause the SWR
bridge to read incorrectly.

I use a KAT500 and my TUNE power is 20 watts.  This assures the ATU and
SWR circuits have adequate signal to perform the desired function.   As
to the SPE 1.3K amp, as fussy as they are, I'm surprised it didn't trip
off line.

My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my
balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It
accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see
is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of
a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed
electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under
matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.
Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book
say.  Again, either wet or dry.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/27/2021 4:10 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:10:25 -0800
From: Fred Jensen
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
Message-ID:<8c012d97-f62d-b342-4ec3-20db2e8f5...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major
effects [well, except for weight].? Ice forming from water directly from
the sky is a pretty good insulator.? We had a very large Log-Periodic on
the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote
northern interior of KL7.? Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the
elements in the dead of winter, much of which was -35 C or below.? In
the so-called spring, solid ice would form on them, and there was
essentially no perceptible change in the antenna performance.? If your
ATU wasn't getting enough power to tune, it was probably "eating your
power" rather than the ice on the antenna.

At home, I have an HOA "WOOF" antenna [Wire On Organic Fence] at about 2
m AGL.? We've been having a series of snowstorms, the top of the fence,
including the wire, was encased in snow yesterday for the 40 m ECN, and
it worked as good as it ever does.

73 & HNY,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bill Frantz wrote on 12/27/2021 11:48 AM:

I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I
tried
could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed
to be
redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since operators
calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. Some of these
operators had worked other stations, so I knew their radios were
basically working. I tried maybe a half a dozen stations.

Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I man

Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Lyn Norstad]

Bob -

Should you ever feel the need to replace your feedline, open wire line will 
solve that problem.

73
Lyn, W0LEN

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

I doubt that ice on the antenna would have any effect in terms of 
increased loss.   However, I would expect the resonant frequency to 
change and thus the need to adjust the tuner.   If it is and ATU / 
automated tuner, then perhaps a bit too low power may cause the SWR 
bridge to read incorrectly.

I use a KAT500 and my TUNE power is 20 watts.  This assures the ATU and 
SWR circuits have adequate signal to perform the desired function.   As 
to the SPE 1.3K amp, as fussy as they are, I'm surprised it didn't trip 
off line.

My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my 
balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It 
accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see 
is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of 
a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed 
electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under 
matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.   
Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book 
say.  Again, either wet or dry.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/27/2021 4:10 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:10:25 -0800
> From: Fred Jensen
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
> Message-ID:<8c012d97-f62d-b342-4ec3-20db2e8f5...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major
> effects [well, except for weight].? Ice forming from water directly from
> the sky is a pretty good insulator.? We had a very large Log-Periodic on
> the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote
> northern interior of KL7.? Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the
> elements in the dead of winter, much of which was -35 C or below.? In
> the so-called spring, solid ice would form on them, and there was
> essentially no perceptible change in the antenna performance.? If your
> ATU wasn't getting enough power to tune, it was probably "eating your
> power" rather than the ice on the antenna.
>
> At home, I have an HOA "WOOF" antenna [Wire On Organic Fence] at about 2
> m AGL.? We've been having a series of snowstorms, the top of the fence,
> including the wire, was encased in snow yesterday for the 40 m ECN, and
> it worked as good as it ever does.
>
> 73 & HNY,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> Bill Frantz wrote on 12/27/2021 11:48 AM:
>> I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
>> more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I
>> tried
>> could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
>> although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed
>> to be
>> redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.
>>
>> After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since operators
>> calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. Some of these
>> operators had worked other stations, so I knew their radios were
>> basically working. I tried maybe a half a dozen stations.
>>
>> Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
>> and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
>> check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
>> minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX.
>> Thanks to
>> both of them.
>>
>> My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the antenna was
>> eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice seem a
>> reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love to come up
>> with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in the
>> future.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[john]

The ice should not have a significant effect on your signal strength. With a
KW, everyone should hear you fine unless there is a water/ice issue with
your center insulator. Ice is a poor dielectric, it will make your dipole
wire electrically longer so a tuner will likely be needed to make your
radio/amp happy. Good coax will reduce your feedline SWR losses.

John KK9A


Bill Frantz AE6JV wrote:

I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the 
stations I tried
could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole 
needed to be
redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since 
operators calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. 
Some of these operators had worked other stations, so I knew 
their radios were basically working. I tried maybe a half a 
dozen stations.

Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 
exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I 
managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. 
With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX. 
Thanks to
both of them.

My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the 
antenna was
eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice 
seem a
reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love 
to come up
with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in 
the future.

73 Bill AE6JV

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Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

[Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Bob McGraw]

I doubt that ice on the antenna would have any effect in terms of 
increased loss.   However, I would expect the resonant frequency to 
change and thus the need to adjust the tuner.   If it is and ATU / 
automated tuner, then perhaps a bit too low power may cause the SWR 
bridge to read incorrectly.


I use a KAT500 and my TUNE power is 20 watts.  This assures the ATU and 
SWR circuits have adequate signal to perform the desired function.   As 
to the SPE 1.3K amp, as fussy as they are, I'm surprised it didn't trip 
off line.


My experience with antenna's changing due to moisture is with my 
balanced center fed wire which uses window line for the feed.  It 
accumulates moisture, frost, rain, snow, and ice.  The change I do see 
is due to the velocity change of the balanced feed.  My measurements of 
a couple of years back indicated the length of the line changed 
electrically thus a velocity factor change.  Any loss, wet or dry, under 
matched conditions was not measurable over a length of 100 ft on 20M.   
Therefore, I would expect the mis-matched loss to be about as the book 
say.  Again, either wet or dry.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/27/2021 4:10 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:10:25 -0800
From: Fred Jensen
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten
Message-ID:<8c012d97-f62d-b342-4ec3-20db2e8f5...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major
effects [well, except for weight].? Ice forming from water directly from
the sky is a pretty good insulator.? We had a very large Log-Periodic on
the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote
northern interior of KL7.? Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the
elements in the dead of winter, much of which was -35 C or below.? In
the so-called spring, solid ice would form on them, and there was
essentially no perceptible change in the antenna performance.? If your
ATU wasn't getting enough power to tune, it was probably "eating your
power" rather than the ice on the antenna.

At home, I have an HOA "WOOF" antenna [Wire On Organic Fence] at about 2
m AGL.? We've been having a series of snowstorms, the top of the fence,
including the wire, was encased in snow yesterday for the 40 m ECN, and
it worked as good as it ever does.

73 & HNY,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bill Frantz wrote on 12/27/2021 11:48 AM:

I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I
tried
could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed
to be
redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since operators
calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. Some of these
operators had worked other stations, so I knew their radios were
basically working. I tried maybe a half a dozen stations.

Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX.
Thanks to
both of them.

My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the antenna was
eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice seem a
reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love to come up
with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in the
future.

73 Bill AE6JV

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Re: [Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Fred Jensen]

I doubt that pogonip or even solid ice on your antenna would have major 
effects [well, except for weight].  Ice forming from water directly from 
the sky is a pretty good insulator.  We had a very large Log-Periodic on 
the roof of the hangar at my first USAF assignment in the remote 
northern interior of KL7.  Lots of ice fog creating rime ice on the 
elements in the dead of winter, much of which was -35 C or below.  In 
the so-called spring, solid ice would form on them, and there was 
essentially no perceptible change in the antenna performance.  If your 
ATU wasn't getting enough power to tune, it was probably "eating your 
power" rather than the ice on the antenna.


At home, I have an HOA "WOOF" antenna [Wire On Organic Fence] at about 2 
m AGL.  We've been having a series of snowstorms, the top of the fence, 
including the wire, was encased in snow yesterday for the 40 m ECN, and 
it worked as good as it ever does.


73 & HNY,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bill Frantz wrote on 12/27/2021 11:48 AM:

I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the stations I 
tried

could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole needed 
to be

redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since operators 
calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. Some of these 
operators had worked other stations, so I knew their radios were 
basically working. I tried maybe a half a dozen stations.


Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX. 
Thanks to

both of them.

My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the antenna was
eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice seem a
reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love to come up
with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in the 
future.


73 Bill AE6JV




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[Elecraft] Output power being eaten

[Bill Frantz]

I didn't have a good night in the K1USN Slow Speed Test. I started
more-or-less on time and tried to answer CQs. None of the 
stations I tried

could hear me. My SPE 1.3K amp said I was putting out about a kilowatt,
although the antenna tuning on my normally low SWR 40M dipole 
needed to be

redone. I was receiving many stations, at normal levels.

After a few minutes, I started searching for causes, since 
operators calling CQ weren't hearing me and sending CQ again. 
Some of these operators had worked other stations, so I knew 
their radios were basically working. I tried maybe a half a 
dozen stations.


Finally, in desperation, I raised the tune power in my K3 
exciter to 15W
and retuned the dipole yet again. Things started working and I 
managed to
check into the Elecraft 40M CW net via KD5ONS in OR at 0050z. 
With only 5
minutes in the contest left, I managed QSOs with W6SX and VE5MX. 
Thanks to

both of them.

My current theory about what was happening is that ice on the 
antenna was
eating transmit power, although receive seemed normal. Does ice 
seem a
reasonable explanation? What else could be the cause? I'd love 
to come up
with a believable answer. Even more so, avoid the situation in 
the future.


73 Bill AE6JV

---
Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear| Periwinkle
(408)348-7900  | as a design you haven't | 150 Rivermead 
Rd #235
www.pwpconsult.com | written down. - Dean Tribble| Peterborough, 
NH 03458


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Re: [Elecraft] Cheap power supply for KBT2

[Dave]

I have an RFI location flow chart at:

https://www.nk7z.net/i-have-rfi-now-what-locating-it/

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 11/25/21 20:07, Bob McGraw wrote:

I strongly agree with Jim, K9YC on this.

One way and place to start,  power the transceiver from a battery such 
as a lawn tractor battery.  Then dump the main breaker to the house. 
Make sure any UPS is also OFF.  Then turn off all of the individual 
breakers.  Check and note the level on the receiver with one antenna and 
normal settings on the receiver.  Don't change antennas or receiver 
settings.   Just note the noise level.    Turn the main breaker ON.  Go 
note the noise level.  There should not be any change.   Now, one 
breaker at at time, turn it on and note the noise level for each one. 
The next breaker on and note the noise level.  And continue the 
process.  Now, if you see or observe a noise increase with a particular 
breaker on, that says something on that circuit is causing noise.  Find 
out what it is and take corrective action.   It maybe necessary to 
replace something or to add a line filter at or to the offending item. 
Once you have completed the process with each breaker, and cleaned up 
your house, anything left is most likely outside of the house.   That 
would be the neighbor's house or power company.  Good luck with those, 
although most cases, the power company will be available to clean up 
their system...but you have to be willing to find the general 
location of the source of the noise first, be it on a pole, transformer, 
night light, and etc.   As to the neighbors house..just buy some of 
their weed and be happy.   {Grow lights?}


It is a time consuming process but well worth the time.  Seems we add 
things and the noise comes up a wee bit, then we add something else and 
the noise comes up a wee bit more, and etc.    I just added some of 
those twinkling blinking Christmas lights.  My noise went up 
noticeably.  Guess I'll tolerate the noise until about Jan 2 or 3. You'd 
be surprised at the number of things that cause noise that I've thrown 
in the trash.  Best place for most of the junk.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/25/2021 8:55 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:02:06 -0800
From: Jim Brown
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K2] Cheap power supply for KBT2
Message-ID:
<89d0d3d2-6e46-4327-c5c3-555460f25...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 11/24/2021 6:29 AM, Chris wrote:

I use this, and it seems to be working very well.

Have you checked it for noise, using techniques in this app note?
http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

Most hams have so much receive noise that they can't hear. If you
haven't gone through your home to get rid of your own noise sources,
chances are you're one of them.

73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft] Cheap power supply for KBT2

[Bob McGraw]

I strongly agree with Jim, K9YC on this.

One way and place to start,  power the transceiver from a battery such 
as a lawn tractor battery.  Then dump the main breaker to the house.  
Make sure any UPS is also OFF.  Then turn off all of the individual 
breakers.  Check and note the level on the receiver with one antenna and 
normal settings on the receiver.  Don't change antennas or receiver 
settings.   Just note the noise level.    Turn the main breaker ON.  Go 
note the noise level.  There should not be any change.   Now, one 
breaker at at time, turn it on and note the noise level for each one.  
The next breaker on and note the noise level.  And continue the 
process.  Now, if you see or observe a noise increase with a particular 
breaker on, that says something on that circuit is causing noise.  Find 
out what it is and take corrective action.   It maybe necessary to 
replace something or to add a line filter at or to the offending item. 
Once you have completed the process with each breaker, and cleaned up 
your house, anything left is most likely outside of the house.   That 
would be the neighbor's house or power company.  Good luck with those, 
although most cases, the power company will be available to clean up 
their system...but you have to be willing to find the general 
location of the source of the noise first, be it on a pole, transformer, 
night light, and etc.   As to the neighbors house..just buy some of 
their weed and be happy.   {Grow lights?}


It is a time consuming process but well worth the time.  Seems we add 
things and the noise comes up a wee bit, then we add something else and 
the noise comes up a wee bit more, and etc.    I just added some of 
those twinkling blinking Christmas lights.  My noise went up 
noticeably.  Guess I'll tolerate the noise until about Jan 2 or 3.  
You'd be surprised at the number of things that cause noise that I've 
thrown in the trash.  Best place for most of the junk.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/25/2021 8:55 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:02:06 -0800
From: Jim Brown
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K2] Cheap power supply for KBT2
Message-ID:
<89d0d3d2-6e46-4327-c5c3-555460f25...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 11/24/2021 6:29 AM, Chris wrote:

I use this, and it seems to be working very well.

Have you checked it for noise, using techniques in this app note?
http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

Most hams have so much receive noise that they can't hear. If you
haven't gone through your home to get rid of your own noise sources,
chances are you're one of them.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jim Brown]

On 9/23/2021 6:34 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

Yes, there are many reasons to match as well as possible


Elecraft engineer K6XX has shown that it is critical to match antennas 
to the output devices to minimize IMD (clicks, splatter). In tube amps, 
this is done by a variable pi or pi-L network; with solid state amps, it 
must be done by a dedicated antenna tuner. The one in the KPA1500 works 
quite well.


Bob and I are both serious contesters (he's much better than me), and 
within a week of my moving in four miles from him, he made sure I knew 
how to tune my tube amps. :)  We've always been good friends.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Lyn Norstad]

Andy -

Yes, there are many reasons to match as well as possible ... depending on
many other factors ... so I never argue with that principle.  Bob put
together a very nice spreadsheet that makes it easy to quickly see what's
going on.

One thing I really like about this group is the friendly, helpful
participants.  I'm probably in 15 different groups, but this is the one I
always check first.

Thanks!

73
Lyn, W0LEN


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Andy Durbin
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 5:59 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

"Would you care to share your KPA500 power measurements at each of those
drive levels (and test mode used)?"

If you receive this data set be sure you understand that dissipation,
heating, and efficiency will be strongly dependent on the complex impedance
of the load.   I have previously shared test data for my KPA500 but I made
no attempt to record drive level and have no data for gain.  My measurements
were made to explore the influence of output power and loading on PA
dissipation.

Once you have this data you'll stop believing those who say there is no
reason to match to better than 1.5:1.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

The answer to Lyn's question was via a private response with attached 
EXCEL file.   That file is available except it "won't take" here on the 
discussion group.


73

Bob, K4TAX


Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:14:47 -0500
From: "Lyn Norstad"
To: "'Bob McGraw'",  
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:<06fe01d7afe6$1c3911c0$54ab3540$@LNAINC.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="UTF-8"

Bob -

Would you care to share your KPA500 power measurements at each of those drive 
levels (and test mode used)?

Thanks!

73
Lyn, W0LEN  (KPA/KAT500 user)
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Andy Durbin]

"Would you care to share your KPA500 power measurements at each of those drive 
levels (and test mode used)?"

If you receive this data set be sure you understand that dissipation, heating, 
and efficiency will be strongly dependent on the complex impedance of the load. 
  I have previously shared test data for my KPA500 but I made no attempt to 
record drive level and have no data for gain.  My measurements were made to 
explore the influence of output power and loading on PA dissipation.

Once you have this data you'll stop believing those who say there is no reason 
to match to better than 1.5:1.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Lyn Norstad]

Bob -

Would you care to share your KPA500 power measurements at each of those drive 
levels (and test mode used)?

Thanks!

73
Lyn, W0LEN  (KPA/KAT500 user)

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 9:22 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

I've said this for years, even with tube type amplifiers.  One 
exception, to which I'm aware,  is the Johnson Thunderbolt which uses a 
variable L along with variable C for the input components to the Pi L 
network.   Otherwise, the Pi network input circuit is using a fixed 
value of L  and a variable C for the frequency. Thus it is designed to 
match the output device Z only at rated power.

I've performed power measurements on my KPA500 on all bands at 100 
watts, 200, watts, 300 watts, 400 watts, and 500 watts output.  
Measuring input power and output power and calculating efficiency, 
dissipation, and gain on all bands, 160M - 6M.

73

Bob, K4TAX 

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

And how did you come to the conclusion of no overshoot?

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 9/21/2021 8:48 AM, Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF wrote:

I have a Yeasu FTdx5000 and an FTdx101MP.
Both are driving Elecraft KPA1500's.
The driver power is reduced to about 35 Watts on both!  I have no over 
shoot with either rig!

Do not use ALC!!  Lower the drive power.
No issues!  Works Great...
K2QMF


On 9/21/2021 9:38:49 AM, jerry  wrote:

On 2021-09-21 06:26, Bob McGraw wrote:
> Not really, 6 dB of attenuation rated at 100 watts. The challenge is
> switching it out on receive.

*** Not so bad if you build it INTO the linear - so it would be inside
the
existing relays. But yeah - it's a shame to waste all that power and
heat the linear
more.

- Jerry KF6VB



>
> But the real challenge is to buy a transceiver that doesn't overshoot
> at reduced power.  Neither my K3S, my Tentec Eagle, nor my Omni VII
> have the issue.    Other companies have or need to update their
> operating system such that reduced power does not overshoot.
>
> Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 9/20/2021 11:21 AM, jerry wrote:
>> On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:
>>> Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
>>> brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
>>> likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.
>>> Namely to drive a power amplifier.
>>
>> *** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full 
power

>> and
>> insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment
>> though.
>>
>>    - Jerry KF6VB
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Wes]

Buried in this thread: 
https://groups.io/g/TS-890/topic/kenwood_ts_890s_audio_chain/74266007?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0=1


is this:

Dear Sir,
Please accept our excuses for keeping you waiting.
As I mentioned last time due to the COVID-19 our staff in Japan is till the end 
of this month only working part time.


As a consequence there are some major delays.

Meanwhile I received some information that the symptom is not a software bug but 
a hardware related issue caused by low level noise mixing in the circuit.
Our engineers are now checking the predictability and serviceability of the 
hardware modification.

The modification information will be available within a few weeks.
We keep you informed.
Best regards,
Geert Van Muylem
General Manager Service, ON5GVM
JVCKENWOOD Service Europe"

Seems to me they are listening.

Wes N7WS

On 9/21/2021 10:44 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 9/21/2021 6:26 AM, Bob McGraw wrote:

Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?



Of course not. Elecraft (and in the old days, Ten Tec) are/were unique in that 
regard.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jim Brown]

On 9/21/2021 6:48 AM, Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF wrote:

  have a Yeasu FTdx5000 and an FTdx101MP.


Have you looked at splatter for these rigs? I don't know about these 
models specifically, but other recent vintage Yaesu rigs have had awful 
splatter, as heard/measured on my K3/P3/SVGA. Any time I tune SSB, I see 
QSOs where some stations are nice and clean and others are splattering 
only 20 dB down on both sides of their signal. And when I've talked to a 
few of those ops with dirty signals, they've been barefoot Yaesu rigs, 
or the splatter was still there when they turned off their amp.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

Nope didn't miss your post and comments.   While I was not model 
specific, Yaesu is noted to be a key click generator due to overshoot 
and keying ramp timing.    Jim, K9YC also referenced this in his 
message.   {So it isn't just me!}  Maybe the 2 models you have are 
clean, but most Yaesu radios have issues of this type.   I have a friend 
and neighbor and club member that has 3 different Yaesu radios.  Two are 
FTdx3000 radios.    They all have it.  He's sent his to Yaesu for 
service.  They return it saying found nothing wrong.   I took one of his 
radios and measured the artifact with my spectrum analyzer.  I then sent 
the radio and the data from the spectrum analyzer to Yaesu.  There 
response was "oh, must be the way you measured it".   Sorry, but in my 
opinion, they are a bull shit company.   I would never use a Yaesu radio 
if it was provided to me free of charge.   They do have good receivers 
however.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 9/21/2021 1:26 PM, Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF wrote:

Bob,
I guess you missed my post!!
Yeasu Does NOT have the overshoot issue!!
K2QMF


On 9/21/2021 2:14:12 PM, Bob McGraw  wrote:

As to the attenuator, a 6 dB attenuator rated at 100 watts is no big
deal.  The challenge is to switch the attenuator in and out between TX
and RX modes.

A better solution for all is to use a transceiver which DOES NOT have
the problem.  As Jim, K9YC indicated, many do and require either
operating system/firmware changes or in some cases, hardware changes.
I'm with him on this.

I can attest to the fact, my K3S, my Tentec Omni VII and Tentec Eagle DO
NOT have the overshoot issue.  The issue can be resolved.

ICOM, Kenwood, Yaesu.are you listening?

73

Bob, K4TAX



Message: 8
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:21:15 -0700
From: jerry
To: Bob McGraw
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:<6f2e7001d988f150b7f0f39517b3d...@tr2.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:

> Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
> brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
> likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.?
> Namely to drive a power amplifier.??

*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power
and
insert an attenuator in line. It would be serious piece of equipment
though.

- Jerry KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF]

Bob,
I guess you missed my post!!

Yeasu Does NOT have the overshoot issue!!
K2QMF

On 9/21/2021 2:14:12 PM, Bob McGraw  wrote:
As to the attenuator, a 6 dB attenuator rated at 100 watts is no big
deal.  The challenge is to switch the attenuator in and out between TX
and RX modes.

A better solution for all is to use a transceiver which DOES NOT have
the problem.  As Jim, K9YC indicated, many do and require either
operating system/firmware changes or in some cases, hardware changes.  
I'm with him on this.

I can attest to the fact, my K3S, my Tentec Omni VII and Tentec Eagle DO
NOT have the overshoot issue.  The issue can be resolved.

ICOM, Kenwood, Yaesu.are you listening?

73

Bob, K4TAX



Message: 8
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:21:15 -0700
From: jerry
To: Bob McGraw
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:<6f2e7001d988f150b7f0f39517b3d...@tr2.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:

> Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
> brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
> likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.?
> Namely to drive a power amplifier.??

*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power
and
insert an attenuator in line. It would be serious piece of equipment
though.

- Jerry KF6VB

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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

As to the attenuator, a 6 dB attenuator rated at 100 watts is no big 
deal.  The challenge is to switch the attenuator in and out between TX 
and RX modes.


A better solution for all is to use a transceiver which DOES NOT have 
the problem.  As Jim, K9YC indicated, many do and require either 
operating system/firmware changes or in some cases, hardware changes.   
I'm with him on this.


I can attest to the fact, my K3S, my Tentec Omni VII and Tentec Eagle DO 
NOT have the overshoot issue.  The issue can be resolved.


ICOM, Kenwood, Yaesu.are you listening?

73

Bob, K4TAX



Message: 8
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:21:15 -0700
From: jerry
To: Bob McGraw
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:<6f2e7001d988f150b7f0f39517b3d...@tr2.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:


Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.?
Namely to drive a power amplifier.??


*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power
and
insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment
though.

- Jerry KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jim Brown]

On 9/21/2021 6:26 AM, Bob McGraw wrote:

Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?



Of course not. Elecraft (and in the old days, Ten Tec) are/were unique 
in that regard.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF]

I have a Yeasu FTdx5000 and an FTdx101MP.
Both are driving Elecraft KPA1500's.
The driver power is reduced to about 35 Watts on both!  I have no over shoot 
with either rig!
Do not use ALC!!  Lower the drive power.
No issues!  Works Great...
K2QMF 

On 9/21/2021 9:38:49 AM, jerry  wrote:
On 2021-09-21 06:26, Bob McGraw wrote:
> Not really, 6 dB of attenuation rated at 100 watts.  The challenge is
> switching it out on receive.

*** Not so bad if you build it INTO the linear - so it would be inside
the
existing relays. But yeah - it's a shame to waste all that power and
heat the linear
more.

- Jerry KF6VB



>
> But the real challenge is to buy a transceiver that doesn't overshoot
> at reduced power.  Neither my K3S, my Tentec Eagle, nor my Omni VII
> have the issue.    Other companies have or need to update their
> operating system such that reduced power does not overshoot.
>
> Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 9/20/2021 11:21 AM, jerry wrote:
>> On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:
>>> Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
>>> brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
>>> likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.
>>> Namely to drive a power amplifier.
>>
>> *** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power
>> and
>> insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment
>> though.
>>
>>    - Jerry KF6VB
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[jerry]

On 2021-09-21 06:26, Bob McGraw wrote:

Not really, 6 dB of attenuation rated at 100 watts.  The challenge is
switching it out on receive.


*** Not so bad if you build it INTO the linear - so it would be inside 
the
existing relays.  But yeah - it's a shame to waste all that power and 
heat the linear

more.

  - Jerry KF6VB





But the real challenge is to buy a transceiver that doesn't overshoot
at reduced power.  Neither my K3S, my Tentec Eagle, nor my Omni VII
have the issue.    Other companies have or need to update their
operating system such that reduced power does not overshoot.

Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 9/20/2021 11:21 AM, jerry wrote:

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:

Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.
Namely to drive a power amplifier.


*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power 
and
insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment 
though.


   - Jerry KF6VB




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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

Not really, 6 dB of attenuation rated at 100 watts.  The challenge is 
switching it out on receive.


But the real challenge is to buy a transceiver that doesn't overshoot at 
reduced power.  Neither my K3S, my Tentec Eagle, nor my Omni VII have 
the issue.    Other companies have or need to update their operating 
system such that reduced power does not overshoot.


Kenwood, ICOM, and Yaesu...are you listening?

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 9/20/2021 11:21 AM, jerry wrote:

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:

Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.
Namely to drive a power amplifier.


*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power 
and
insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment 
though.


   - Jerry KF6VB





--
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[jerry]

On 2021-09-19 19:47, Bob McGraw wrote:

Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio
brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is
likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power. 
Namely to drive a power amplifier.  


*** So I guess the obvious fix is to operate the exciter at full power 
and
insert an attenuator in line.  It would be serious piece of equipment 
though.


   - Jerry KF6VB


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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

Based on personal experience and observations with another ham radio 
brand and company, it is most often the case that power overshoot is 
likely to occur when the transceiver is operated at reduced power.  
Namely to drive a power amplifier.   In general, tube amplifiers are 
more tolerant than solid state amplifiers. Tube amplifiers in general 
have a soft power ceiling.    The overshoot occurs on the first CW 
element or SSB spoken word.  It takes a fast and triggered scope to 
observe this.   In these radios the ALC us used to control output 
power.  Until the internal ALC, based on its time constants of attack 
and release gets its control routine established and is allowed to do 
its job, the power can soar to near maximum output.


Yes, the radio that Jim mentioned has been observed by me to have a 
notorious amount of CW clicks and SSB splatter.   Otherwise, great 
receiver, lousy transmitter.


73

Bob, K4TAX




Message: 14
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:15:51 -0700
From: Jim Brown
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:
<43ba24ec-6da1-8c44-e0fc-ed878090a...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

For a long time, W8JI, who has designed ham power amps, has observed
that some JA rigs have this problem. And for a long time, the mfrs have
failed to fix them. Just like they have taken decades to fix clicks, and
at least one (Yaesu) has been building rigs with lots of splatter on SSB.

73, Jim K9YC

On 9/18/2021 6:46 PM, Jerry Kirshenbaum wrote:


re: it'd pay to review the SPE

In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor in 
Texas. I?ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to receive my 
K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error. Subsequently, I 
discovered that the software allows one to limit the power on each band. So I 
set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high settings) and determined the 
correct output for 700-800W. That left at least 20% head room.  Despite this 
seem lying failsafe procedure, the finals blew again. The distributor would not 
cover this under warranty on the grounds that my radio has spurious spikes 
which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the ?wrong? radio with this amp, you 
don?t have any warranty because the radio is indicted as the cause of failure 
sight unseen.

The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had 
everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab.

Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I sold it 
and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.

BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes as 
well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their warranty.

73, Jerry / K0ES


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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bob McGraw]

I've said this for years, even with tube type amplifiers.  One 
exception, to which I'm aware,  is the Johnson Thunderbolt which uses a 
variable L along with variable C for the input components to the Pi L 
network.   Otherwise, the Pi network input circuit is using a fixed 
value of L  and a variable C for the frequency. Thus it is designed to 
match the output device Z only at rated power.


I've performed power measurements on my KPA500 on all bands at 100 
watts, 200, watts, 300 watts, 400 watts, and 500 watts output.  
Measuring input power and output power and calculating efficiency, 
dissipation, and gain on all bands, 160M - 6M.


73

Bob, K4TAX


Message: 5
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:26:44 -0400
From: Steve Hall<99sun...@gmail.com>
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Subject:  KPA1500 Power Level
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I looked at the link given in part of this discussion regarding efficiency
and dissipated power data at various output levels.  Very revealing.
During a recent virtual hamfest I spoke to the Elecraft designer of the
KPA1500 and he confirmed that the heat dissipated remains nearly unchanged
whether you are running 500 out or 1500 Watts out.  If owners of the
KPA1500 reduce power output to "go easy" on their amp by reducing power,
they are not.


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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[K9ZTV]

Jerry ...

In either of the failures, were you controlling transceiver output through ALC 
or, as it sounds, manually?

73,

Kent  K9ZTV


> On Sep 18, 2021, at 8:48 PM, Jerry Kirshenbaum  wrote:
> 
> re: it'd pay to review the SPE
> 
> In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor in 
> Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to receive 
> my K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error. 
> Subsequently, I discovered that the software allows one to limit the power on 
> each band. So I set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high settings) and 
> determined the correct output for 700-800W. That left at least 20% head room. 
>  Despite this seem lying failsafe procedure, the finals blew again. The 
> distributor would not cover this under warranty on the grounds that my radio 
> has spurious spikes which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the “wrong” 
> radio with this amp, you don’t have any warranty because the radio is 
> indicted as the cause of failure sight unseen.
> 
> The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had 
> everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab. 
> 
> Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I sold 
> it and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.
> 
> BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes as 
> well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their warranty.
> 
> 73, Jerry / K0ES
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Bill Frantz]

My wife won $1000 off an Expert amplifier at Visalia maybe 5 
years ago. I ended up getting a 1.3K because I had noticed many 
DXpeditions using it. Mine is still working well, knock on wood. 
I run in on 120V at theMedium power setting. I get 700-800 watts 
out. I'm always thinking of selling it and getting an Elecraft 
Amp, but so far no action.


My latest station dream has the antennas 150-200 feet from the 
operating area. I could put the amp in the barn to shorten the 
feed lines.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/18/21 at 9:46 PM, jkb...@usa.net (Jerry Kirshenbaum) wrote:


re: it'd pay to review the SPE

In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the 
distributor in Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W 
transceiver while I wait to receive my K4D. The 1st time the 
finals blew may have been operator error. Subsequently, I 
discovered that the software allows one to limit the power on 
each band. So I set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high 
settings) and determined the correct output for 700-800W. That 
left at least 20% head room.  Despite this seem lying failsafe 
procedure, the finals blew again. The distributor would not 
cover this under warranty on the grounds that my radio has 
spurious spikes which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the 
“wrong” radio with this amp, you don’t have any warranty 
because the radio is indicted as the cause of failure sight unseen.


The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very 
quiet. I had everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E 
through DxLab.
Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was 
enough. I sold it and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.


BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has 
spurious spikes as well and presumably is another transceiver 
not covered under their warranty.


---
Bill Frantz| "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn 
up the
408-348-7900   | intelligence.  There's a knob called 
"brightness", but

www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Mark Goldberg]

I believe the SPE 1.5K-FA uses one 1800W Mosfet and the KPA1500 uses two
1400W Mosfets. In general, the KPA500 and KPA1500 are more robust than most
of the competitors. I've made mistakes a few times with my KPA500 and it is
still ticking. Everyone I've talked to with an ALS-600 has blown the
finals, sometimes multiple times.

I'm using it with a TS-590 that has the spike fix, but it still is not
perfect.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 6:47 PM Jerry Kirshenbaum  wrote:

> re: it'd pay to review the SPE
>
> In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor
> in Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to
> receive my K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error.
> Subsequently, I discovered that the software allows one to limit the power
> on each band. So I set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high
> settings) and determined the correct output for 700-800W. That left at
> least 20% head room.  Despite this seem lying failsafe procedure, the
> finals blew again. The distributor would not cover this under warranty on
> the grounds that my radio has spurious spikes which blew the finals. In
> fact, if you run the “wrong” radio with this amp, you don’t have any
> warranty because the radio is indicted as the cause of failure sight unseen.
>
> The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had
> everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab.
>
> Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I
> sold it and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.
>
> BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes
> as well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their
> warranty.
>
> 73, Jerry / K0ES
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Michael Walker]

Does Expert publish a list of radios they will not warranty their amp on?

Mike va3mw 

> On Sep 18, 2021, at 10:16 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> For a long time, W8JI, who has designed ham power amps, has observed that 
> some JA rigs have this problem. And for a long time, the mfrs have failed to 
> fix them. Just like they have taken decades to fix clicks, and at least one 
> (Yaesu) has been building rigs with lots of splatter on SSB.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
>> On 9/18/2021 6:46 PM, Jerry Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> re: it'd pay to review the SPE
>> In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor in 
>> Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to receive 
>> my K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error. 
>> Subsequently, I discovered that the software allows one to limit the power 
>> on each band. So I set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high settings) 
>> and determined the correct output for 700-800W. That left at least 20% head 
>> room.  Despite this seem lying failsafe procedure, the finals blew again. 
>> The distributor would not cover this under warranty on the grounds that my 
>> radio has spurious spikes which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the 
>> “wrong” radio with this amp, you don’t have any warranty because the radio 
>> is indicted as the cause of failure sight unseen.
>> The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had 
>> everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab.
>> Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I sold 
>> it and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.
>> BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes 
>> as well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their 
>> warranty.
>> 73, Jerry / K0ES
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jim Brown]

For a long time, W8JI, who has designed ham power amps, has observed 
that some JA rigs have this problem. And for a long time, the mfrs have 
failed to fix them. Just like they have taken decades to fix clicks, and 
at least one (Yaesu) has been building rigs with lots of splatter on SSB.


73, Jim K9YC

On 9/18/2021 6:46 PM, Jerry Kirshenbaum wrote:

re: it'd pay to review the SPE

In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor in 
Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to receive my 
K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error. Subsequently, I 
discovered that the software allows one to limit the power on each band. So I 
set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high settings) and determined the 
correct output for 700-800W. That left at least 20% head room.  Despite this 
seem lying failsafe procedure, the finals blew again. The distributor would not 
cover this under warranty on the grounds that my radio has spurious spikes 
which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the “wrong” radio with this amp, you 
don’t have any warranty because the radio is indicted as the cause of failure 
sight unseen.

The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had 
everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab.

Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I sold it 
and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.

BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes as 
well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their warranty.

73, Jerry / K0ES


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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jerry Kirshenbaum]

re: it'd pay to review the SPE

In May 2021 I bought a SPE 1.5K-FA 2nd generator new from the distributor in 
Texas. I’ve been using a SunSDR2 DX 100W transceiver while I wait to receive my 
K4D. The 1st time the finals blew may have been operator error. Subsequently, I 
discovered that the software allows one to limit the power on each band. So I 
set the SPE to mid power (it has low, mid, high settings) and determined the 
correct output for 700-800W. That left at least 20% head room.  Despite this 
seem lying failsafe procedure, the finals blew again. The distributor would not 
cover this under warranty on the grounds that my radio has spurious spikes 
which blew the finals. In fact, if you run the “wrong” radio with this amp, you 
don’t have any warranty because the radio is indicted as the cause of failure 
sight unseen.

The amp when it works is wonderful. One case, 24 lbs, very quiet. I had 
everything linked together with my SteppIR DB18E through DxLab. 

Two times back to the distributor for repair in 3 months was enough. I sold it 
and now have a KPA1500 which is working great.

BTW, the distributor also says the IC-7300 (my backup) has spurious spikes as 
well and presumably is another transceiver not covered under their warranty.

73, Jerry / K0ES


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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Larry (K8UT)]

Barry,

If you've connected your KPA1500 to ethernet/WiFI, you can display the 
amplifier's input watts, outputs watts, and efficiency in real time as 
you vary power levels.


Download the freeware app FANticipator here: 
https://hamprojects.info/fanticipator-kpa1500-console-and-fan-controller/


Free. Easy install. No registration. Use it once (or more) and throw it 
away.


-larry (K8UT)

-- Original Message --
From: j...@kk9a.com
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 2021-09-14 21:35:15
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level


There is some information on KPA1500 efficiency in the archives:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-August/259502.html

John KK9A


Barry Simpson vk2bj wrote:

I have had a quick look through the KPA1500 manual and could not find any
reference to running the amplifier at a lower power level than the rated
1,500w.

Can anyone comment on the implications (eg temperature, efficiency and IMD)
of running a KPA1500 at say 500w by simply reducing the drive power.

Would the power level be stable if set to 500w or would it drift upwards or
downwards during the course of an over on CW ?

Thanks

Barry Simpson  VK2BJ

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Jim Brown]

On 9/14/2021 7:13 PM, Peter Hall wrote:

it'd pay to review the SPE and other offerings both in technical and support 
terms.


In my limited contact with SPE amps, I'd say the Elecraft amps are 
substantially cleaner. One of our neighbors was getting reports of a 
dirty signal on 6M, so one of the guys went to his QTH to help him 
diagnose and clean it up, while I watched on a P3/SVGA. Part of the 
problem was that he was running at low voltage; sidebands dropped by 
about 6 dB when he switched to high power (he was only running 
400-500W), but sidebands were still very nasty, looked like noise rather 
than the small but pronounced peaks spaced in 300 Hz increments from 
N5KO's FT8 signal. I had one for a few weeks, but dumped it because it 
wasn't very clean.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[Peter Hall]

Hello Barry,

I'm not a CW op but use my KPA1500 a lot at the sort of output levels you're 
interested in (for obvious reasons).  My operations are largely SSB, with the 
occasional JT mode digital on 160 m and 6 m.  I have not found the KPA1500 
power output stability to be an issue, despite the fact that the efficiency is 
degraded.  The heatsink temperatures are certainly no worse than at higher 
power operation and the only real penalty is a small hip-pocket one when the 
power bill arrives.  On the IMD front my own quick measurements show that the 
overall picture is also no worse than at high power but it's not much better 
either, although the higher order products are a bit lower.

The KPA1500 manual is a poor effort for a premium product and, in areas like 
IMD specifications and any associated discussion, it's almost an exercise in 
studied disingenuity. An abiding irritation is the lack of a decent block 
diagram showing e.g. the connection points for signal and control lines.  In 
the end, the amplifier is a good one although given our antipodean locations, 
it'd pay to review the SPE and other offerings both in technical and support 
terms.  Personally, I like the Elecraft form factor and the relatively large 
amount of air in the two-box implementation.  My relatively early serial number 
RF deck has been back to the US once for service and upgrade and, while I was 
particularly grateful to a few Elecraft people for help at an obviously 
difficult time (CV19), the overall experience was very average.

73, Peter (VK6HP).



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Barry Simpson
Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2021 6:15 AM
To: Elecraft Mailing List 
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

I have had a quick look through the KPA1500 manual and could not find any 
reference to running the amplifier at a lower power level than the rated 1,500w.

Can anyone comment on the implications (eg temperature, efficiency and IMD) of 
running a KPA1500 at say 500w by simply reducing the drive power.

Would the power level be stable if set to 500w or would it drift upwards or 
downwards during the course of an over on CW ?

Thanks

Barry Simpson  VK2BJ
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 Power Level

[john]

There is some information on KPA1500 efficiency in the archives:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-August/259502.html

John KK9A


Barry Simpson vk2bj wrote:

I have had a quick look through the KPA1500 manual and could not find any
reference to running the amplifier at a lower power level than the rated
1,500w.

Can anyone comment on the implications (eg temperature, efficiency and IMD)
of running a KPA1500 at say 500w by simply reducing the drive power.

Would the power level be stable if set to 500w or would it drift upwards or
downwards during the course of an over on CW ?

Thanks

Barry Simpson  VK2BJ

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