Re: [Elecraft] [RFI] Mysterious K3 Symptoms - RFI? : Important addendum

[Fred Jensen]

FWIW: I used to use the RRC1258 to access a remote station, and I had 
this issue at times.  The AF gain would go very low, any small movement 
of the AF Gain control would restore it instantly.  It's old info, I 
don't use the 1258 anymore, but it was real for me when I did.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote on 3/14/2024 2:01 PM:

I have similar problems but I was thinking it was hamlib because of the
way it triggers for me.

It happens running wsjtx on an M2 Macbook Pro and remoterig down to the
radio in my basement. There's a K3/0 in my office -> remoterig -> K3 &
KPA1500 in the basement. Almost every time I move my transmit frequency
the RX gain goes down to almost nothing. Jiggling the AF gain brings it
back to normal. It doesn't always happen immediately when changing bands
but changing TX frequency in-band triggers it right away.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:

Operating in this morning's CWT, and saw a recurrence of strange 
RFI-like symptoms.  After transmitting, RX gain sometimes was 
severely reduced, but simply moving the K-3's AF gain a little would 
cause recovery to normal. Sometimes, this was accompanied by a HI 
CURR warning on the K3's display, often occurring several seconds 
after switching back to receive.


My working theory has been RFI, but my station is pretty thoroughly 
fitted with toroids. Still, there seems to be a correlation between 
running my KPA-1500 at about 1100 watts and this set of symptoms, 
which I have not been able to trigger running 100 watts   To further 
confuse things, I just had another episode of this occurring *several 
minutes* after the last transmission.


One culprit I can think of is a 100-foot Ethernet cable between my 
station and my FIOS router.  I have bought a shielded replacement but 
have not yet installed it.  After reading some of the recent 
commentary about so-called "shielded" cables, I'm wondering if this 
is worth doing.


Any suggestions, either K-3-specific or more general, would be much 
appreciated.


**ADDENDUM** - I just tested into my dummy load with the amp 
operational at 1100 watts, and triggered all the same symptoms.









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Re: [Elecraft] [RFI] Mysterious K3 Symptoms - RFI? : Important addendum

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I have similar problems but I was thinking it was hamlib because of the
way it triggers for me.

It happens running wsjtx on an M2 Macbook Pro and remoterig down to the
radio in my basement. There's a K3/0 in my office -> remoterig -> K3 &
KPA1500 in the basement. Almost every time I move my transmit frequency
the RX gain goes down to almost nothing. Jiggling the AF gain brings it
back to normal. It doesn't always happen immediately when changing bands
but changing TX frequency in-band triggers it right away.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:

Operating in this morning's CWT, and saw a recurrence of strange RFI-like 
symptoms.  After transmitting, RX gain sometimes was severely reduced, but 
simply moving the K-3's AF gain a little would cause recovery to normal. 
Sometimes, this was accompanied by a HI CURR warning on the K3's display, 
often occurring several seconds after switching back to receive.


My working theory has been RFI, but my station is pretty thoroughly fitted 
with toroids. Still, there seems to be a correlation between running my 
KPA-1500 at about 1100 watts and this set of symptoms, which I have not been 
able to trigger running 100 watts   To further confuse things, I just had 
another episode of this occurring *several minutes* after the last 
transmission.


One culprit I can think of is a 100-foot Ethernet cable between my station 
and my FIOS router.  I have bought a shielded replacement but have not yet 
installed it.  After reading some of the recent commentary about so-called 
"shielded" cables, I'm wondering if this is worth doing.


Any suggestions, either K-3-specific or more general, would be much 
appreciated.


**ADDENDUM** - I just tested into my dummy load with the amp operational at 
1100 watts, and triggered all the same symptoms.





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Re: [Elecraft] [RFI] HI CUR warning on K3

[Michael Carter via Elecraft]

Hi Pete,

I had a similar set of symptoms with my K3
several years back.  Turns out it was not the
K3 at all, but a failing filter capacitor in
my linear regulated power supply.  I
had sporadic audio dropouts after transmitting
in much the same way as you described,
always at QRP TX levels.

Try a different power supply of newer vintage.
I tested the ESR of the filter capacitors in
my supply and found it to be much too high.

73,
Mike, K8CN

From: RFI  on behalf of Pete 
Smith N4ZR 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:31 AM
To: Elecraft List ; RFI List 
Subject: [RFI] HI CUR warning on K3

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the University System. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.


I send a few characters of CW into my Carolina Windom on 40M and after a
delay (1-5 seconds after I stop sending) the K3 flashes a HI CUR
warning, and the audio gain is reduced significantly.  Touch the AF gain
control and it instantly returns the gain to normal, but frequently the
HI CURR warning returns over and over, without any additional
transmissions.  This sequence does not happen, even with 1500 watts,
into my dummy load, nor does it happen on the same antenna on 80M, or on
20 meters on my tribander.

I've read the HI CUR warning discussion on page 65 of the manual, but it
doesn't seem relevant, because I don't have external speakers.  The fact
that it  only happens when feeding an actual antenna on one band
suggests RFI, but the fact that the HI CUR warning and gain reduction
recur again and again long after any RF has me puzzled.  Any suggestions
gratefully accepted!

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI wiht my KX3

[Dave]

In addition to the reply by Jim, be careful if using ready made “audio”
extension cables. Many are not screened and will pickup RF.

Even with antennas that are not close to your shack, you can have high RF
levels on the coax outer, in turn that means on the case of your KX3. An
easy to make RF clamp meter will show if you have these common mode
currents flowing on cables into and around your shack. See:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/clamp-on/clamp-on.htm

73 Dave G4AON
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI wiht my KX3

[Jim Brown]

On 3/19/2023 1:40 PM, John Pierce via Elecraft wrote:

Is it possible to accomplish what I am trying to do?


Sure -- ditch the preamp, which is un-necessary, make sure that bias is 
turned off, and make/use a properly wired cable adapter. Another 
question -- what mic are you trying to use and why did you choose it?


73, Jim K9YC (retired pro audio guy)
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[Dave]

Hi,

Purchase some FT240-31 ferrite cores, 
(https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1912768.pdf), and wind at least 5 
turns of each cable going to, or from, the computer through the ferrite.


I have several of these, and they stopped ALL of my RFI issues with my 
computer, and with a weather station I have as well.


Shop around looking for the best price, some folks are asking 10 bucks 
for one of these, others are asking 5 bucks...  I use Newark, and 
Digikey as my goto places.


Also look to K9YC's site, for more information on how to make the chokes...

http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 12/19/21 16:24, David F. Reed wrote:


Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for the 
time being.


I am getting a bit of RFI on occasion into my PC; it manifests itself 
mainly by apparently disconnecting the com port from Commander.  When 
this happens, I can restore functionality by selecting a different com 
port, and then re-selecting the original correct com port.


I am grounded to a 10' ground rod about 8 ft. from the station via 2" 
copper strap. I did install ferrite beads on the USB cables at the back 
of the PC as well as on the power cord, and this has reduced the 
frequency of occurrence, but I would like to eliminate it altogether.


Any other ideas and suggestions would be most appreciated!

Thanks & 73 de Dave, W5SV
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[David F. Reed]

Thanks all for all the sensible suggestions; I have enough to go try to 
solve it now.


73 de Dave, W5SV
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[Bill Parsons]

K9YC, Jim Brown, has an excellent set of papers and presentation slide sets
on antenna chokes and solving RFI issues that should help with all aspects
of your issues at the following web addresses:

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

http://audiosystemsgroup.com  <- homepage

Very good coverage of antenna and transmission line optimization to
minimize  common mode noise and preventing RF from getting into your ham
shack or to your operating position.

73, Bill  af6ae

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 4:27 PM David F. Reed  wrote:

>
> Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for the
> time being.
>
> I am getting a bit of RFI on occasion into my PC; it manifests itself
> mainly by apparently disconnecting the com port from Commander.  When
> this happens, I can restore functionality by selecting a different com
> port, and then re-selecting the original correct com port.
>
> I am grounded to a 10' ground rod about 8 ft. from the station via 2"
> copper strap. I did install ferrite beads on the USB cables at the back
> of the PC as well as on the power cord, and this has reduced the
> frequency of occurrence, but I would like to eliminate it altogether.
>
> Any other ideas and suggestions would be most appreciated!
>
> Thanks & 73 de Dave, W5SV
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[James Bennett via Elecraft]

Same issue here - our CC&Rs specifically say no outdoor antennas

 However, another thing to consider is to use a flag pole style antenna. I 
understand that many states’ laws have provisions that prevent any HOA from 
denying the installation of a flag pole in one’s yard. I know for a fact that 
my state (Idaho) is one of them. I was initially going to put a PVC jacket 
around my 6BTV and make it a flagpole antenna. But after being here for several 
months realized that the winds in this high desert environment would have 
destroyed it without guy wires. And who has seen flag poles with guy wires? So, 
I purchased a Zerofive HOA 24’ Flagpole Vertical, covering 40-6 meters. The HOA 
had no problem with it and I’ve been on the air for months with the flagpole. 
It even loads up on 80 and 160 meters. Not inexpensive but to me, worth every 
penny. There are other commercial ham flagpole verticals on the market. No need 
to be limited to indoor antennas if you have a yard to put up a flag pole!

Jim / K7TXA

> On Dec 19, 2021, at 7:39 PM, jerry  wrote:
> 
> On 2021-12-19 16:24, David F. Reed wrote:
>> Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for
>> the time being.
> 
>  I have a similar situation. Our CC&R's prohibit any and all antennas.  
> Period.
> 
>  Here's how I dealt with it.  I ran for the Board.  Have been serving
> for 10 years.  Last year I got my 6BTV approved by the Board - in WRITING.
> 
>  Every two weeks I host a town hall on zoom for the entire HOA membership.
> For those meetings, I change the location of the webcam, so my station is
> not visible.  :)
> 
>  A tower & beam are probably not politically feasible;  but I'm happy with my
> vertical.  I even tossed the ancient flea-market one and installed a brand new
> one from DX Engineering, along with their tilt base.
> 
>- Jerry KF6VB
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[jerry]

On 2021-12-19 16:24, David F. Reed wrote:

Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for
the time being.


  I have a similar situation. Our CC&R's prohibit any and all antennas.  
Period.


  Here's how I dealt with it.  I ran for the Board.  Have been serving
for 10 years.  Last year I got my 6BTV approved by the Board - in 
WRITING.


  Every two weeks I host a town hall on zoom for the entire HOA 
membership.
For those meetings, I change the location of the webcam, so my station 
is

not visible.  :)

  A tower & beam are probably not politically feasible;  but I'm happy 
with my
vertical.  I even tossed the ancient flea-market one and installed a 
brand new

one from DX Engineering, along with their tilt base.

- Jerry KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[Fred Jensen]

The fact that clamp-ons reduced but didn't cure is a good sign.  A few 
turns thru ferrite toroids are ever so much more effective than the 
clamp-ons which I think is what you mean by "beads."  Mix 31 is best for 
HF, but 43 will also work well.  USB cables with an A-connector on one 
end and a B on the other will support 3 or 4 turns on a 1 1/2" toroid if 
you wind it using the B-end.  The finally wound toroid should be placed 
at the end of the cable connected to the device experiencing the RFI.  
Larger clamp-ons will often let you get two passes thru the ferrite for 
thicker power cords.  Common mode chokes are usually placed at the feed 
point of the antenna, but there are times when one on the coax at the 
rig will reduce RFI also.  And, don't forget any audio, keyboard, or 
mouse cables.  Visit k9yc.com for more exact, specific research on every 
choke known to humankind. 😉


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

David F. Reed wrote on 12/19/2021 4:24 PM:


Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for 
the time being.


I am getting a bit of RFI on occasion into my PC; it manifests itself 
mainly by apparently disconnecting the com port from Commander.  When 
this happens, I can restore functionality by selecting a different com 
port, and then re-selecting the original correct com port.


I am grounded to a 10' ground rod about 8 ft. from the station via 2" 
copper strap. I did install ferrite beads on the USB cables at the 
back of the PC as well as on the power cord, and this has reduced the 
frequency of occurrence, but I would like to eliminate it altogether.


Any other ideas and suggestions would be most appreciated!

Thanks & 73 de Dave, W5SV
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI

[Buck K4IA]

Bond the computer case and radio with strap.  That provides an alternate 
path for RF reducing the amount on the USB cable.


Buck, K4IA
DXCC Honor Roll
8BDXCC
Author EasyWayHamBooks.com

On 12/19/2021 7:24 PM, David F. Reed wrote:


Due to some HOA C&R, I am confined to attic and gutter antennas for 
the time being.


I am getting a bit of RFI on occasion into my PC; it manifests itself 
mainly by apparently disconnecting the com port from Commander.  When 
this happens, I can restore functionality by selecting a different com 
port, and then re-selecting the original correct com port.


I am grounded to a 10' ground rod about 8 ft. from the station via 2" 
copper strap. I did install ferrite beads on the USB cables at the 
back of the PC as well as on the power cord, and this has reduced the 
frequency of occurrence, but I would like to eliminate it altogether.


Any other ideas and suggestions would be most appreciated!

Thanks & 73 de Dave, W5SV
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/22/2020 11:59 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

Approximately 10 mi SW of us is a different sort of problem.  A commercial
shortwave station has been built and is operating on an experimental basis.
Their plan is to transmit market data over the pole to High Speed Traders in
Europe (milliseconds faster than cable).  They are currently licensed on
frequencies on both sides of our 40 meter band, and between our 30 and 20
meter bands.  They are using a 25 KW transmitter into an 18 db gain curtain,
with an EIRP of 808 KW.


This is a great example a situation that demands a rig as good as a K3S! 
And probably the highest cost version of a K4.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Lyn Norstad]

Thanks for that, Jim.

We are actually 38 miles due West of the Willis (Sears) tower in Central
Kane County.  There is virtually no industrial noise source nearby, but we
do occasionally get interference from medical apparatus.

With my 360 ft. EDZ (cut for 3.5 MHz) strung E-W at about 30 feet, I
normally have a background noise level in the S1 - S2 level, depending on
band and time of day.  I have a backup antenna in the attic (modified G5RV)
that does not fare quite as well, but is still useable.

Approximately 10 mi SW of us is a different sort of problem.  A commercial
shortwave station has been built and is operating on an experimental basis.
Their plan is to transmit market data over the pole to High Speed Traders in
Europe (milliseconds faster than cable).  They are currently licensed on
frequencies on both sides of our 40 meter band, and between our 30 and 20
meter bands.  They are using a 25 KW transmitter into an 18 db gain curtain,
with an EIRP of 808 KW.  We are located on the edge of their 38º beamwidth.
To date I have only seen them in the region just below 40 meters.  To say
they are noticeable would be an understatement.

There are quite a number of similar stations across the country, so I'm sure
others in the group have encountered them as well.

73
Lyn, WØLEN


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 12:45 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

On 2/21/2020 6:12 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote:
> In Chicagoland, all wiring must be in conduits, and both the
> kitchen and the shack are on their own circuits.  In fact, the only 'home
> grown' RFI I am aware of is 1 out of 4 identical HP 24" LED monitors that
> puts out a steady carrier on 30 meters.

Having lived in Chicago for 42 years and maintained an engineering 
consulting practice there for 30 years, and as a former member of IBEW 
134, I'm well aware of the conduit requirement. :) Indeed, I had a lot 
of conduit installed in the 2-flat I bought on the North Side in 1986. 
Which is also why I added the phrase "the nature of electrical wiring in 
your home also matters." The large sound systems I designed and 
specified used miles of conduit for both power and signal wiring. When I 
moved to W6 in 2006, I had the outbuilding that would become my shack 
and consulting office wired with EMT before I moved in.

Several other points here. First, RFI is generally NOT conducted on 
wiring from one piece of equipment to another, it is radiated by wiring 
from one piece of equipment to another. And it is often present on, and 
radiated by, the equipment ground conductor (the green wire). Properly 
installed conduit (continuous and bonded at every junction and at both 
ends) provides shielding, and prevents radiation.

Second, when I operated in Chicago, my noise level was fairly high, with 
contributions from my own home, my tenant who lived below me, the homes 
that surrounded mine, Newark's corporate office building at the end of 
my block, whatever was on power lines, and trains on the Northwestern 
track across the street. With that noise level, usually in the range of 
S6 to S8, it would be pretty hard to notice yet another noise source 50 
ft  from my antennas.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/21/2020 6:12 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

In Chicagoland, all wiring must be in conduits, and both the
kitchen and the shack are on their own circuits.  In fact, the only 'home
grown' RFI I am aware of is 1 out of 4 identical HP 24" LED monitors that
puts out a steady carrier on 30 meters.


Having lived in Chicago for 42 years and maintained an engineering 
consulting practice there for 30 years, and as a former member of IBEW 
134, I'm well aware of the conduit requirement. :) Indeed, I had a lot 
of conduit installed in the 2-flat I bought on the North Side in 1986. 
Which is also why I added the phrase "the nature of electrical wiring in 
your home also matters." The large sound systems I designed and 
specified used miles of conduit for both power and signal wiring. When I 
moved to W6 in 2006, I had the outbuilding that would become my shack 
and consulting office wired with EMT before I moved in.


Several other points here. First, RFI is generally NOT conducted on 
wiring from one piece of equipment to another, it is radiated by wiring 
from one piece of equipment to another. And it is often present on, and 
radiated by, the equipment ground conductor (the green wire). Properly 
installed conduit (continuous and bonded at every junction and at both 
ends) provides shielding, and prevents radiation.


Second, when I operated in Chicago, my noise level was fairly high, with 
contributions from my own home, my tenant who lived below me, the homes 
that surrounded mine, Newark's corporate office building at the end of 
my block, whatever was on power lines, and trains on the Northwestern 
track across the street. With that noise level, usually in the range of 
S6 to S8, it would be pretty hard to notice yet another noise source 50 
ft  from my antennas.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

There's a paragraph of slightly raised writing on the bottom...really hard to 
read, but if I get a chance to turn it over again, I'll check. It's set up for 
morning right now.

Jack BMW Motorcycles
Chuck KE9UW
c-haw...@illinois.edu

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:06 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> Seems like a good reason not to buy one.  Which reminds me, do they have a 
> Part 15 label attached?   Not that they actually meet Part 15 requirements.  
> 
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:02 PM, hawley, charles j jr  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Keurig Pro Duo 5200 (they leak stuff out when you turn them upside down...)
>> 
>> Jack BMW Motorcycles
>> Chuck KE9UW
>> c-haw...@illinois.edu
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>>> On Feb 21, 2020, at 7:20 PM, Gary K9GS  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What's the MODEL number??73,Gary K9GS
>>>  Original message ----From: "hawley, charles j jr" 
>>>  Date: 2/21/20  5:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
>>> l...@lnainc.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, W8JH  
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues This is the newest one that brews a 
>>> carafe of 10 cups or does a pod into your mug. I too have had others 
>>> without any noise, but this new one puts a huge sine wave of noise on the 
>>> panadapter. I have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it. I 
>>> just turn the thing off after brewing...or wait about 5 minutes and the 
>>> noise goes away.  Jack BMW MotorcyclesChuck KE9UWc-hawley@illinois.eduSent 
>>> from my iPad> On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn Norstad  
>>> wrote:> > I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have 
>>> never had an issue on any band.> > Kitchen is right next door to the shack, 
>>> and the pot is on all day.> > Lyn> W0LEN> > > -Original Message-> 
>>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>>> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of hawley, charles j 
>>> jr> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM> To: W8JH> Cc: 
>>> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues> > I still 
>>> love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off after the 
>>> pot or pod is brewed.> > Chuck Jack Hawley > KE9UW> > Sent from my iPhone, 
>>> cjack > >> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  
>>> wrote:>> >> ke9uw wrote>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does 
>>> a pot or also the pods. It>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. 
>>> Have to turn it off to get>>> on 80M>> >> That is a serious conflict!>> >> 
>>> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!>> >> 
>>> >> >> >> ->> 73,>> >> Joe, W8JH>> >> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 
>>> happy user.>> -->> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/>> 
>>> __>> Elecraft 
>>> mailing list>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>> 
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>> Post: 
>>> mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> >> This list hosted by: 
>>> http://www.qsl.net>> Please help support this email list: 
>>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>> Message delivered to c-haw...@illinois.edu 
>>> > __> Elecraft 
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>>> Help: 

Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Andy Moorwood]

Can we end this thread now please ?

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 5:21 PM, Gary K9GS  wrote:
> 
> What's the MODEL number??73,Gary K9GS
>  Original message From: "hawley, charles j jr" 
>  Date: 2/21/20  5:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
> l...@lnainc.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, W8JH  
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues This is the newest one that brews a carafe 
> of 10 cups or does a pod into your mug. I too have had others without any 
> noise, but this new one puts a huge sine wave of noise on the panadapter. I 
> have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it. I just turn the 
> thing off after brewing...or wait about 5 minutes and the noise goes away.  
> Jack BMW MotorcyclesChuck KE9UWc-hawley@illinois.eduSent from my iPad> On Feb 
> 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn Norstad  wrote:> > I've had 
> several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have never had an issue on 
> any band.> > Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all 
> day.> > Lyn> W0LEN> > > -Original Message-> From: 
> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On 
> Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM> 
> To: W8JH> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues> > 
> I still love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off 
> after the pot or pod is brewed.> > Chuck Jack Hawley > KE9UW> > Sent from my 
> iPhone, cjack > >> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  
> wrote:>> >> ke9uw wrote>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a 
> pot or also the pods. It>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. 
> Have to turn it off to get>>> on 80M>> >> That is a serious conflict!>> >> 
> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!>> >> >> 
> >> >> ->> 73,>> >> Joe, W8JH>> >> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy 
> user.>> -->> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/>> 
> __>> Elecraft 
> mailing list>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>> Help: 
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> >> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net>> Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>> Message delivered to 
> c-haw...@illinois.edu > 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Lyn Norstad]

Well, Jim - 

If you're going to quote someone, bear in mind that editing what they said
out of context might change the meaning of what they said (you've probably
heard of the C.O.M.A. process used in Bible study).

I said two things:

1) I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have never had
an issue on any band.

and ...

2) Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.

#1 is a response to the RFI issue, but ...

#2 is an indicator that I need to have coffee nearby both for myself and for
others who may be visiting my shack. Stop over the next time you're in
Chicago.

73
Lyn, W0LEN

PS - FWIW, the nearest point of the antenna is probably 50 feet from the
coffee pot.  In Chicagoland, all wiring must be in conduits, and both the
kitchen and the shack are on their own circuits.  In fact, the only 'home
grown' RFI I am aware of is 1 out of 4 identical HP 24" LED monitors that
puts out a steady carrier on 30 meters.



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 1:20 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

On 2/21/2020 9:41 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:
> Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.

What matters is distance to antennas, not the shack. The nature of 
electrical wiring in your home also matters, because it's that wiring 
that radiates any noise produced.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Seems like a good reason not to buy one.  Which reminds me, do they have a Part 
15 label attached?   Not that they actually meet Part 15 requirements.  

73
Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:02 PM, hawley, charles j jr  
> wrote:
> 
> Keurig Pro Duo 5200 (they leak stuff out when you turn them upside down...)
> 
> Jack BMW Motorcycles
> Chuck KE9UW
> c-haw...@illinois.edu
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Feb 21, 2020, at 7:20 PM, Gary K9GS  wrote:
>> 
>> What's the MODEL number??73,Gary K9GS
>>  Original message From: "hawley, charles j jr" 
>>  Date: 2/21/20  5:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
>> l...@lnainc.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, W8JH  
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues This is the newest one that brews a 
>> carafe of 10 cups or does a pod into your mug. I too have had others without 
>> any noise, but this new one puts a huge sine wave of noise on the 
>> panadapter. I have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it. I 
>> just turn the thing off after brewing...or wait about 5 minutes and the 
>> noise goes away.  Jack BMW MotorcyclesChuck KE9UWc-hawley@illinois.eduSent 
>> from my iPad> On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn Norstad  
>> wrote:> > I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have 
>> never had an issue on any band.> > Kitchen is right next door to the shack, 
>> and the pot is on all day.> > Lyn> W0LEN> > > -Original Message-> 
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr> 
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM> To: W8JH> Cc: 
>> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues> > I still love 
>> the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off after the pot or 
>> pod is brewed.> > Chuck Jack Hawley > KE9UW> > Sent from my iPhone, cjack > 
>> >> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  wrote:>> >> 
>> ke9uw wrote>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also 
>> the pods. It>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn 
>> it off to get>>> on 80M>> >> That is a serious conflict!>> >> 80m morning 
>> greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!>> >> >> >> >> 
>> ->> 73,>> >> Joe, W8JH>> >> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.>> 
>> -->> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/>> 
>> __>> Elecraft 
>> mailing list>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>> 
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>> Post: 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

Keurig Pro Duo 5200 (they leak stuff out when you turn them upside down...)

Jack BMW Motorcycles
Chuck KE9UW
c-haw...@illinois.edu

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 7:20 PM, Gary K9GS  wrote:
> 
> What's the MODEL number??73,Gary K9GS
>  Original message From: "hawley, charles j jr" 
>  Date: 2/21/20  5:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
> l...@lnainc.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, W8JH  
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues This is the newest one that brews a carafe 
> of 10 cups or does a pod into your mug. I too have had others without any 
> noise, but this new one puts a huge sine wave of noise on the panadapter. I 
> have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it. I just turn the 
> thing off after brewing...or wait about 5 minutes and the noise goes away.  
> Jack BMW MotorcyclesChuck KE9UWc-hawley@illinois.eduSent from my iPad> On Feb 
> 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn Norstad  wrote:> > I've had 
> several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have never had an issue on 
> any band.> > Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all 
> day.> > Lyn> W0LEN> > > -Original Message-> From: 
> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On 
> Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM> 
> To: W8JH> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues> > 
> I still love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off 
> after the pot or pod is brewed.> > Chuck Jack Hawley > KE9UW> > Sent from my 
> iPhone, cjack > >> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  
> wrote:>> >> ke9uw wrote>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a 
> pot or also the pods. It>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. 
> Have to turn it off to get>>> on 80M>> >> That is a serious conflict!>> >> 
> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!>> >> >> 
> >> >> ->> 73,>> >> Joe, W8JH>> >> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy 
> user.>> -->> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/>> 
> __>> Elecraft 
> mailing list>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>> Help: 
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> >> 
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>> Message delivered to 
> c-haw...@illinois.edu > 
> __> Elecraft 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

I don't know the mx. I get it though, it's worked on switching supplies and I 
wind multiple turns. They did a great job on a treadmill. A different mix may 
be better because it seems like a lower frequency. 

Jack BMW Motorcycles
Chuck KE9UW
c-haw...@illinois.edu

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 5:35 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 2/21/2020 3:08 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> I have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it.
> 
> Which ferrite? There are dozens of different types. Did you just clamp one 
> on, or did you wind multiple turns through it as shown in these links?
> http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf and
> http://k9yc.com/KillingRXNoiseVisalia.pdf
> 
> If you don't use the "right" ferrite and if you don't wind the "right" number 
> of turns for the band(s) where you hear the noise, the ferrite WON'T do 
> anything.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Gary K9GS]

What's the MODEL number??73,Gary K9GS
 Original message From: "hawley, charles j jr" 
 Date: 2/21/20  5:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: l...@lnainc.com 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, W8JH  Subject: Re: 
[Elecraft] RFI issues This is the newest one that brews a carafe of 10 cups or 
does a pod into your mug. I too have had others without any noise, but this new 
one puts a huge sine wave of noise on the panadapter. I have put ferrite on the 
line cord which don't affect it. I just turn the thing off after brewing...or 
wait about 5 minutes and the noise goes away.  Jack BMW MotorcyclesChuck 
KE9UWc-hawley@illinois.eduSent from my iPad> On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn 
Norstad  wrote:> > I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig 
Pod type, and have never had an issue on any band.> > Kitchen is right next 
door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.> > Lyn> W0LEN> > > -Original 
Message-> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr> 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM> To: W8JH> Cc: 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues> > I still love 
the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off after the pot or 
pod is brewed.> > Chuck Jack Hawley > KE9UW> > Sent from my iPhone, cjack > >> 
On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  wrote:>> >> ke9uw 
wrote>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. 
It>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to 
get>>> on 80M>> >> That is a serious conflict!>> >> 80m morning greyline 
without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!>> >> >> >> >> ->> 73,>> >> 
Joe, W8JH>> >> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.>> -->> Sent from: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/21/2020 3:08 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

I have put ferrite on the line cord which don't affect it.


Which ferrite? There are dozens of different types. Did you just clamp 
one on, or did you wind multiple turns through it as shown in these links?

http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf and
http://k9yc.com/KillingRXNoiseVisalia.pdf

If you don't use the "right" ferrite and if you don't wind the "right" 
number of turns for the band(s) where you hear the noise, the ferrite 
WON'T do anything.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

This is the newest one that brews a carafe of 10 cups or does a pod into your 
mug. I too have had others without any noise, but this new one puts a huge sine 
wave of noise on the panadapter. I have put ferrite on the line cord which 
don't affect it. I just turn the thing off after brewing...or wait about 5 
minutes and the noise goes away.  

Jack BMW Motorcycles
Chuck KE9UW
c-haw...@illinois.edu

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Lyn Norstad  wrote:
> 
> I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have never had an 
> issue on any band.
> 
> Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.
> 
> Lyn
> W0LEN
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM
> To: W8JH
> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues
> 
> I still love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off 
> after the pot or pod is brewed.
> 
> Chuck Jack Hawley 
> KE9UW
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack 
> 
>> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  wrote:
>> 
>> ke9uw wrote
>>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It
>>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get
>>> on 80M
>> 
>> That is a serious conflict!
>> 
>> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> 73,
>> 
>> Joe, W8JH
>> 
>> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.
>> --
>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Dave New, N8SBE]

(Sorry about the previous blank message -- this is now the ONLY
mailgroup I'm subscribed to that refuses HTML-formatted mail, which is
the default setting for my mail client).

It's amazing the things that can cause issues.  From my experience:


1) An automatic porch light sensor, the kind that screws in the light
socket and then you screw the porch light bulb into it.  It was putting
out broadband hash across several bands, but only at night, when the
light was on.


2) A Mr. Coffee coffee maker that had a little LED clock in the base, so
you could set it to auto-brew in the morning.  That little clock also
put out broadband hash, whose tone tended to vary somewhat depending on
what was currently on the display.  I had to find it using a portable
radio and finding that the kitchen outlets were 'singing' with the
signal.


3) A doorbell transformer, that was mounted on the side of a light
junction box in the basement, located above a false ceiling panel.  The
really annoying aspect was that the transformer didn't seem to be on any
branch circuit.  I finally discovered that the previous home owner had
jumpered a couple of branch circuits in the breaker panel (?!), so
turning off only one of the breakers didn't kill power to some outlets. 
This circuit was shared with the kitchen dishwasher, etc. outlets, and
apparently they had had breaker trips from the overloaded circuit, so
they just jumpered another breaker in parallel.  After running
additional circuits to put the dishwasher and garbage disposal, etc. on
separate circuits (and removing the offending jumpers in the breaker
box), I was finally able to isolate the doorbell transformer, which was
subsequently replaced.


It's been a while since I've done a 'whole house down' survey, and my
noise floor has crept up again.  In particular, I have a broadband noise
that is 20 over S9 that wipes out the top half of 80 meters and all of
60 meters.  I suspect it is my neighbor's U-Verse system twisted copper
pair uplink which operates on those frequencies.




"The second band is used in upstream and start at 3.75 MHz and end at
5.2 MHz " -- https://adslm.dohrenburg.net/uverse/


It's a never-ending challenge...


Good luck, and 73,


-- Dave, N8SBE
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Dave New, N8SBE]

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/21/2020 9:41 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.


What matters is distance to antennas, not the shack. The nature of 
electrical wiring in your home also matters, because it's that wiring 
that radiates any noise produced.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Lyn Norstad]

I've had several of the inexpensive Keurig Pod type, and have never had an 
issue on any band.

Kitchen is right next door to the shack, and the pot is on all day.

Lyn
W0LEN


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of hawley, charles j jr
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:04 PM
To: W8JH
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

I still love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off after 
the pot or pod is brewed.

Chuck Jack Hawley 
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack 

> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  wrote:
> 
> ke9uw wrote
>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It
>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get
>> on 80M
> 
> That is a serious conflict!
> 
> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 73,
> 
> Joe, W8JH
> 
> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Keith Trinity WE6R]

RF overload can do a lot of things.
Try above and below 12W (8W on 6m) to see if the KPA3 is swamped.
Or an antenna on the RX port (If KXV3 equipped).
Also RF overload can excite any loose connections at the tower site, 
rusty metal, fence joints etc.

You are just going to have to sniff around with a portable setup.
Keith WE6R
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

I still love the coffee maker and would buy it again. I just turn it off after 
the pot or pod is brewed.

Chuck Jack Hawley 
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack 

> On Feb 20, 2020, at 12:12 PM, W8JH  wrote:
> 
> ke9uw wrote
>> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It
>> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get
>> on 80M
> 
> That is a serious conflict!
> 
> 80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 73,
> 
> Joe, W8JH
> 
> K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/20/2020 10:22 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
Not so fast. The K3's T/R switch can be overwhelmed by very strong 
signals. The result is intermod junk all over the bands. This happened 
to me with a 50 kW AM BC signal at about 1000 kHz that is line-of-sight 
to my antenna. I don't see why a super-strong VHF signal couldn't have 
the same effect.


AM BC signals are far more likely to cause issues because 1) they are 
much closer in frequency (as a percentage) than VHF/UHF, so 2) our 
antennas tend to be far less efficient receiving them, and 3) feedline 
loss is high at VHF/UHF, due both to normal increase in loss with 
frequency and because the feedline is poorly matched to the RX at 
VHF/UHF. Also, AM BC transmitters often combine in non-linear junctions 
to produce IMD that ON_FREQUENCY in our bands. I first experienced this 
more than 60 years ago, when local 5kW stations on 930 kHz and 1470 kHz 
put a monster product on 3870 kHz, wiping out the WV AM net on 3890.


The IM often occurs in the TX output stage; because FM and TV TX 
antennas are often in close proximity to other BC and 2-way TX sites, it 
is common for these TX to include a device called a "circulator" that 
prevents signal from another TX to backfeed into their own output stage, 
where rectification can occur, but it is far less common for AM stations 
to include comparable networks. In addition, of course, rectification 
can occur almost anywhere.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[K8TE]

We gave our plasma TV to our parish and I bought my wife a new LED TV so she
could watch her programs and I could operate HF without the horrible noise
from the plasma TV!

73, Bill, K8TE

I still have a neighbor with a noisy plasma TV 



--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

Not so fast. The K3's T/R switch can be overwhelmed by very strong 
signals. The result is intermod junk all over the bands. This happened 
to me with a 50 kW AM BC signal at about 1000 kHz that is line-of-sight 
to my antenna. I don't see why a super-strong VHF signal couldn't have 
the same effect.


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 20-Feb-2020 20:10, Fred Jensen wrote:
Andreas:  The probability that your noise is due to the TV or FM station 
is extremely low [like really zero]. Meadow Lakes CA is the "TV/FM 
capital" for the southern Central Valley [Fresno], and my 2m HT goes 
full bars about 2 miles from the complex on both FM and AM [aeronautical 
band].  When at the repeater site next to a 300 KW digital TV station, 
my comrade's HT won't break my squelch.  It is just front end overload 
from way out of band, there is no discernible noise.


The number of noise makers we normally see in urban/suburban areas is 
almost countably infinite.  In addition to the 24/7 constant hash from 
SMPS, I have a variety of intermittant noise sources that come and go 
with periods ranging from a few seconds [probably the A/C motor starting 
at the gym behind us] to an hour or so. One is a sequence of 
synchronized carriers on the waterfall about 7 kHz apart that last for a 
few seconds and then burst into roman candles that fog up the WF and 
then fade in 2 or 3 seconds. Neighbor 4 doors down the street just 
installed rooftop solar which I can now see on the P3 on 160 and 80. [:=(


K9YC's RFI notes pretty much cover searching for and fixing RFI.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[K9MA]

It's really important to make sure you're listening to the right source. 
One way to do that is to listen to the audio from your home receiver (AM 
mode, AGC off, RF gain backed down to avoid overload) while you are 
searching. There will be a pattern of fluctuations. When they match, you 
have the right source. You can relay the home receiver by phone, 
VHF/UHF, etc.


73,
Scott K9MA


On 2/20/2020 11:48, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:

I once had a noise issue and I used my KX3 roving about the neighborhood to 
find it.  Actually, I found a number of loud noise sources doing that as I 
moved around.  It seems that if the noise level is fairly constant as you move 
around the area but will within the same general distance from the TV/FM 
station antennas you could isolate the source as those antennas or something 
else.

73, phil, K7PEH



On Feb 20, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:

On 2/18/2020 4:38 PM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC breaker. Didn’t 
make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI is related to the 208 kW 
ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) which are within 1.6 miles and in 
direct line of sight.

Do you have neighbors? Did you pull their breakers at the same time?

Do you have a UPS? They continue to run without power, so both they and any 
connected equipment can create noise.

Did you take the time to study the link I posted?

73, Jim K9YC
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Scott  K9MA

k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[W8JH]

ke9uw wrote
> We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It
> puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get
> on 80M

That is a serious conflict!

80m morning greyline without caffeine, people cannot live this way!!




-
73,

Joe, W8JH

K3s, KPA 500, KAT 500 and  KX3 happy user.
--
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Fred Jensen]

Andreas:  The probability that your noise is due to the TV or FM station 
is extremely low [like really zero]. Meadow Lakes CA is the "TV/FM 
capital" for the southern Central Valley [Fresno], and my 2m HT goes 
full bars about 2 miles from the complex on both FM and AM [aeronautical 
band].  When at the repeater site next to a 300 KW digital TV station, 
my comrade's HT won't break my squelch.  It is just front end overload 
from way out of band, there is no discernible noise.


The number of noise makers we normally see in urban/suburban areas is 
almost countably infinite.  In addition to the 24/7 constant hash from 
SMPS, I have a variety of intermittant noise sources that come and go 
with periods ranging from a few seconds [probably the A/C motor starting 
at the gym behind us] to an hour or so. One is a sequence of 
synchronized carriers on the waterfall about 7 kHz apart that last for a 
few seconds and then burst into roman candles that fog up the WF and 
then fade in 2 or 3 seconds. Neighbor 4 doors down the street just 
installed rooftop solar which I can now see on the P3 on 160 and 80. [:=(


K9YC's RFI notes pretty much cover searching for and fixing RFI.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 2/20/2020 9:42 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 2/18/2020 4:38 PM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC 
breaker. Didn’t make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI 
is related to the 208 kW ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) 
which are within 1.6 miles and in direct line of sight.


Do you have neighbors? Did you pull their breakers at the same time?

Do you have a UPS? They continue to run without power, so both they 
and any connected equipment can create noise.


Did you take the time to study the link I posted?

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Phil Hystad via Elecraft]

I once had a noise issue and I used my KX3 roving about the neighborhood to 
find it.  Actually, I found a number of loud noise sources doing that as I 
moved around.  It seems that if the noise level is fairly constant as you move 
around the area but will within the same general distance from the TV/FM 
station antennas you could isolate the source as those antennas or something 
else.

73, phil, K7PEH


> On Feb 20, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 2/18/2020 4:38 PM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
>> Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC breaker. 
>> Didn’t make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI is related to the 
>> 208 kW ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) which are within 1.6 
>> miles and in direct line of sight.
> 
> Do you have neighbors? Did you pull their breakers at the same time?
> 
> Do you have a UPS? They continue to run without power, so both they and any 
> connected equipment can create noise.
> 
> Did you take the time to study the link I posted?
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/18/2020 4:38 PM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC breaker. Didn’t 
make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI is related to the 208 kW 
ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) which are within 1.6 miles and in 
direct line of sight.


Do you have neighbors? Did you pull their breakers at the same time?

Do you have a UPS? They continue to run without power, so both they and 
any connected equipment can create noise.


Did you take the time to study the link I posted?

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/19/2020 7:12 AM, Gmail - George wrote:

Andreas,
You might want to go to the station and talk the the Chief Engineer. If he
is the nice-guygal type CE he will help you (Not al CEs are the nice kind
but most are).


Maybe in 1960, but no way in 2020. Besides, it is quite unlikely that 
these stations are causing your problem, but as has been observed, a 
simple LPF inserted in the antenna will prevent those TX from hitting 
your RX.


George is right on about antenna directivity and the spectrum analyzer 
display.


As I observed earlier, the FAR more likely source(s) of your noise are 
dozens of switch-mode power supplies in your home and the homes of each 
of your neighbors, other equipment that includes power control 
electronics, and equipment that includes microprocessors.


This link can query the FCC website to see technical details for any 
broadcast station in the US. https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/am-query


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Fred Jensen]

FWIW: We recently gave up the grinder, we found that the very fine 
ground in the store made much better coffee than what we could get from 
whole beans in our grinder.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 2/19/2020 1:31 PM, Wes wrote:
Me too.  I was just complaining to my XYL about having to fill the 
bean grinder, grind the beans, and water the brewer and suggested 
getting one.  They use them in her law office but she said no, she 
likes fresh ground.  I guess this ends that idea.


Wes  N7WS

On 2/19/2020 5:17 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

Thanks, I was considering one of those...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 7:55 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the 
pods. It puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn 
it off to get on 80M


Chuck Jack Hawley
KE9UW


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Wes]

Me too.  I was just complaining to my XYL about having to fill the bean grinder, 
grind the beans, and water the brewer and suggested getting one.  They use them 
in her law office but she said no, she likes fresh ground.  I guess this ends 
that idea.


Wes  N7WS

On 2/19/2020 5:17 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

Thanks, I was considering one of those...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 7:55 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It 
puts a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get on 80M


Chuck Jack Hawley
KE9UW


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[David Ahrendts via Elecraft]

Andreas, TV transmitters at 500 MHz +- are really not noise disrupters in our 
amateur HF world. In fact, in our AREDN mesh work in LA, we’ve found that 
Ubiquiti sector antennas at 3 GHz and 5 GHz producing just milliwatts of power 
play nicely next to commercial TV transmitters generating 1.5-million watts at 
500 MHz. So it’s something else.
A few years ago, I was on a similar RF noise hunt in my systems which reside in 
central LA, an RF noisy place. Some things I learned:
1) Pay close attention to how your power supply is connected. Use shielded 
twisted pair wiring from your power supply to your radio, and do not use 
red-black zip line. Unless twisted, that untwisted cable becomes an excellent 
antenna delivering noise to your system. In fact, pay attention to all cables. 
Make sure they are shielded. 
2) Hunt for noise makers. At that time I made the really dumb mistake of having 
two touch lamps near my radios — ya know, ya hit the base to raise or lower 
brightness. Those things will make noise for miles. Away they went.
3) Older plasma flat screens (pre-LCD) are noise makers. Most light dimmers. 
Someone even had a coffee maker with a loose heating coil connection that was 
through the roof with noise.
4) In my hunt for noise makers, I used an aircraft band hand-held receiver 
(that’s AM), squelch off, and just walk around touching the antenna to things.. 
Eye opening. Ya know what my biggest noise maker was near my radios?! My D-Link 
switch which lives under the desk not 3 feet from my HF radio. Further all of 
those CAT6 cables were great little antennas just spreading that noise all 
over. Solution: feed the switch highly filtered power and change all cables to 
CAT7 which is heavily shielded CAT6. Made a big difference.
5) Ferrite beads, clamp-ons. Get a bunch. Put them on every cable. Double up on 
the coax. Keep standing waves away. You want to discourage RF from traveling in 
places where it should not go. Ferrites are wonderful. Get 'em on Amazon.
6) Grounding. There are several well-known AC filtering devices that can add an 
extra ground to your AC mains coming into your radios.
7) Switching power supplies. Those wall-worts. Noisy beasts. Best to use a 
centralized, filtered 12V DC system that eliminates those wall worts 
altogether. One of the worst noise makers near my radios was a lovely, 
beautiful LG display which could not be plugged into my highly filtered and 
shielded 12V DC system because they run own 24V. Switched it out with a nice 
Samsung which runs on 12V and it runs totally quiet.
Good luck. The hunt may take a while But these steps took my urban noise from 
S7 to S1. Was worth the time.

David Ahrendts, KK6DA, Los Angeles
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Gmail - George]

Andreas,
You might want to go to the station and talk the the Chief Engineer. If he 
is the nice-guygal type CE he will help you (Not al CEs are the nice kind 
but most are).

I'd suggest that he/she cycle the two transmitters on/off while you are at 
your station. He/She won't do that during the early news but might at 2 or 3 
AM. It is worth a try.


Long ago - I had the opposite issue when ham transmitters interfered with TV 
receivers. Some people call the TV station to resolve the issue. Most of the 
time it came down to who was going to buy the filter. At any given time we 
probably had 10 filters on the shelf.

One point - TV (especially UHF) antennas tend to fairly high gain. The 
pattern tends to be omnidirectional horizontally. The gain is in the 
vertical plane. Much of the transmitted power is well above 10° (probably 
much higher). The FM antenna gain depends on the size transmitter. Usually 
they tend to use lower gain than TV antennas.

In a spectrum analyzer - the digital TV looks like high power noise. The 
signal should square corners on both ends of the occupied spectrum.

73
George  AI4VZ



-Original Message- 
From: Andreas Wachter via Elecraft
I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 
kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I 
moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ 
noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside 
my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so 
far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could 
it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line 
of sight from my house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Dave Cole]

Thanks, I was considering one of those...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 7:55 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It puts 
a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get on 80M

Chuck Jack Hawley
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack


On Feb 18, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Bill Lederer  wrote:

House we just moved into, we did new under-the-counter lighting.  Once I
got the ham shack started, I saw s9 noise on 160 and 80. Turn them off, and
it becomes quiet.

Other led panel lights produce no noise whatsoever.

But now that that is identified, I will be tracking down some other noise,
likely in the neighborhood.

w8lvn


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:29 PM Fred Nassar  wrote:

Had a similar issue moving to a new QTH. It turned out to be a bad
transformer in the neighborhood. You could call in an RFI complaint once
you rule out your own QTH and asked them to sniff around.

You can also sniff around with a 2 or 6 meter SSB rig if you have one.

Fred
KE4Q


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:47 PM Michael Walker  wrote:

HI Andreas

Sorry to hear about your noise.

I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on

your

own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
using it.

I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
too many that are quiet.

I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed

out

15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix

31

chokes to.

When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs

with

LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.

If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house,

you

should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
everyone is out of the house.

Mike va3mw



On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:



Hi,

I might suspect something else...

Have you done a power off test of your home yet?

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting

digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
(KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable

to

use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung

up

on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the

RFI

within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating

from

within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers,

which

are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for

the

RFI?


73, Andreas

K6AKW
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--
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[hawley, charles j jr]

We bought a new Keurig coffee maker which does a pot or also the pods. It puts 
a huge noise out to the ham frequencies. Have to turn it off to get on 80M

Chuck Jack Hawley 
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack 

> On Feb 18, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Bill Lederer  wrote:
> 
> House we just moved into, we did new under-the-counter lighting.  Once I
> got the ham shack started, I saw s9 noise on 160 and 80. Turn them off, and
> it becomes quiet.
> 
> Other led panel lights produce no noise whatsoever.
> 
> But now that that is identified, I will be tracking down some other noise,
> likely in the neighborhood.
> 
> w8lvn
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:29 PM Fred Nassar  wrote:
>> 
>> Had a similar issue moving to a new QTH. It turned out to be a bad
>> transformer in the neighborhood. You could call in an RFI complaint once
>> you rule out your own QTH and asked them to sniff around.
>> 
>> You can also sniff around with a 2 or 6 meter SSB rig if you have one.
>> 
>> Fred
>> KE4Q
>> 
>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:47 PM Michael Walker  wrote:
>>> 
>>> HI Andreas
>>> 
>>> Sorry to hear about your noise.
>>> 
>>> I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
>>> the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on
>> your
>>> own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
>>> year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
>>> using it.
>>> 
>>> I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
>>> property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
>>> near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
>>> too many that are quiet.
>>> 
>>> I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed
>> out
>>> 15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix
>> 31
>>> chokes to.
>>> 
>>> When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs
>> with
>>> LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.
>>> 
>>> If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house,
>> you
>>> should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
>>> everyone is out of the house.
>>> 
>>> Mike va3mw
>>> 
>>> 
 On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 I might suspect something else...
 
 Have you done a power off test of your home yet?
 
 73, and thanks,
 Dave (NK7Z)
 https://www.nk7z.net
 ARRL Volunteer Examiner
 ARRL Technical Specialist
 ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
 
 On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
> I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting
 digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
 (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
 KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable
>> to
 use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung
>>> up
 on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the
>>> RFI
 within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating
>>> from
 within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers,
>> which
 are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for
>>> the
 RFI?
> 
> 73, Andreas
> 
> K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Does the noise appear on one band or several bands?  Is it tune-able 
thus limited to one broad frequency or just total broadband noise?


You will need to know the frequency of both transmitters and then 
perform an IM study.  The sum of those two frequencies is doubtful but 
the difference could be fall in the ham band(s).  You can contact the FM 
station and the TV station engineering department and inquire as to when 
they have transmitter maintenance scheduled.  What ever day or hour of 
the night that might be, you need to be listening.   If it doesn't go 
away, it isn't them.   If it does, that doesn't assure they are at 
fault.  I've seen chain link fences make a nice diode junction and it 
radiates like crazy.


Here is a link that will simplify the calculations. 
http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/?RF_Aids:On-Line_calculators:Intermodulation


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 2/18/2020 6:38 PM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC breaker. Didn’t 
make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI is related to the 208 kW 
ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) which are within 1.6 miles and in 
direct line of sight.

73, Andreas K6AKW


On Feb 18, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Hank  wrote:


Have you tried pulling your main AC breaker and running your K3 on a car 
battery?  That way, you are sure that nothing in your house (switching power 
supplies, poor mechanical joints, etc.) is creating the noise.


I was able to convince my nearest neighbors to shut down their AC panels also after my 
house seemed "clean".


I finally found 2 bad crimped power line connections down the street from my 
and a home made fence charge at a goat farm about 300yds behind my house 
through the woods.  Another ham and the local power company came and helped.  
The power company did their work and it cleared up several S units, but 
something was still there.  Riding around with a scanner tuned to 1800kHz (AM 
mode) with no antenna connected yielded the goat fence.  The power company came 
out with a listening device to verify my findings.  I offered to buy the farmer 
a fence charger from the hardware store, but he went ahead and did it on his 
own - it really helped having the power company there!!

I still have a neighbor with a noisy plasma TV - an MFJ-1026 with a longwire 
out the window nulls it out quite well when the TV in on.  Eventually the TV 
will die (I'm hoping).

Good luck!
Hank
K4HYJ

  
- Original Message -

From: Andreas Wachter via Elecraft (elecraft@mailman.qth.net)
Date: 02/18/20 12:39
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI issues

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW 
ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved 
to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all 
bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve 
tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been 
unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the 
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight from my 
house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

One of the first things to try is to operate the station receiver from a 
battery, disconnect everything including the external ground,  but the 
antenna.  Then drop the mains breaker to the property.  If the noise 
changes, then some or part of it is on your property.  If the noise does 
not change then it is most likely not on your property.  Don't forget 
about any UPS that you may have on the property.   It must be turned off 
as well.  Our fiber internet service has a battery back-up at the 
demarcation. You may need to unplug that unit as well.


If it is not on your property, I suggest a portable AM radio tuned to 
1700 or such if there is not local station on the frequency.  Most of 
those radios have a rod antenna that is bi-directional.  Use it as a 
null device as the null will be much more pronounced than trying to peak 
the noise.   Headphones or earbuds will help.    You'll need a local / 
sub division map. Mark the axis of the radio on the map,   then move 
over 100 to 300 yards to the side and do the same.  Usually 3 or 4 sites 
will have the lines intersect.    You can then move to that location.  
Worst case, should you have 2 or more noise sources which are then a 
real challenge to chase.


If it is on your property, then drop every individual breaker, bring the 
mains back on and observe.  Then add one breaker and observe.  Add the 
next breaker and observe.   Finally you will find the 2 or 3 that 
contributes greatly to the noise.  Then you can check the devices on 
each one.   Don't forget about the doorbell transformer.  Those go bad, 
make noise, yet the doorbell will still work.


Once the location is known, then contact the property owner or the local 
utility.  You may have to be persistent with the local utility, move up 
the chain of command,  but diplomacy along every step goes a long way to 
getting something done.


It is also worthwhile to note the day and the times the observations 
were made.  It could be related to something only furing the day or only 
at night or maybe on each Wednesday and Friday  etc.


I doubt it is anything from the TV stations.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 2/18/2020 4:45 PM, Michael Walker wrote:

HI Andreas

Sorry to hear about your noise.

I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on your
own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
using it.

I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
too many that are quiet.

I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed out
15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix 31
chokes to.

When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs with
LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.

If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house, you
should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
everyone is out of the house.

Mike va3mw


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:


Hi,

I might suspect something else...

Have you done a power off test of your home yet?

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting

digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
(KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to
use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung up
on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the RFI
within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating from
within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which
are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for the
RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Andreas Wachter via Elecraft]

Yes, I did run the K3 off of a battery and pulled the main AC breaker. Didn’t 
make any difference. Thus my suspicion that the RFI is related to the 208 kW 
ERP TV station (and/or 63 kW EPR FM station) which are within 1.6 miles and in 
direct line of sight.

73, Andreas K6AKW 

> On Feb 18, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Hank  wrote:
> 
> 
> Have you tried pulling your main AC breaker and running your K3 on a car 
> battery?  That way, you are sure that nothing in your house (switching power 
> supplies, poor mechanical joints, etc.) is creating the noise.  
> 
> 
> I was able to convince my nearest neighbors to shut down their AC panels also 
> after my house seemed "clean".  
> 
> 
> I finally found 2 bad crimped power line connections down the street from my 
> and a home made fence charge at a goat farm about 300yds behind my house 
> through the woods.  Another ham and the local power company came and helped.  
> The power company did their work and it cleared up several S units, but 
> something was still there.  Riding around with a scanner tuned to 1800kHz (AM 
> mode) with no antenna connected yielded the goat fence.  The power company 
> came out with a listening device to verify my findings.  I offered to buy the 
> farmer a fence charger from the hardware store, but he went ahead and did it 
> on his own - it really helped having the power company there!!
> 
> I still have a neighbor with a noisy plasma TV - an MFJ-1026 with a longwire 
> out the window nulls it out quite well when the TV in on.  Eventually the TV 
> will die (I'm hoping).
> 
> Good luck!
> Hank
> K4HYJ
> 
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: Andreas Wachter via Elecraft (elecraft@mailman.qth.net)
> Date: 02/18/20 12:39
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] RFI issues
> 
> I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
> (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 
> kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I 
> moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise 
> on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my 
> house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far 
> have been unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be 
> that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight 
> from my house, might be responsible for the RFI?
> 
> 73, Andreas
> 
> K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Keith N6JPA]

Have you inquired at a local ham radio club for help with your RFI/EMI 
issues for assistance in finding the problem?


I doubt  transmitters 1.6 miles away would create problems for you.


73, Keith, N6JPA


On 2/18/2020 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW 
ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved 
to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all 
bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve 
tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been 
unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the 
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight from my 
house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Bill Lederer]

House we just moved into, we did new under-the-counter lighting.  Once I
got the ham shack started, I saw s9 noise on 160 and 80. Turn them off, and
it becomes quiet.

Other led panel lights produce no noise whatsoever.

But now that that is identified, I will be tracking down some other noise,
likely in the neighborhood.

w8lvn

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:29 PM Fred Nassar  wrote:

> Had a similar issue moving to a new QTH. It turned out to be a bad
> transformer in the neighborhood. You could call in an RFI complaint once
> you rule out your own QTH and asked them to sniff around.
>
> You can also sniff around with a 2 or 6 meter SSB rig if you have one.
>
> Fred
> KE4Q
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:47 PM Michael Walker  wrote:
>
> > HI Andreas
> >
> > Sorry to hear about your noise.
> >
> > I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
> > the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on
> your
> > own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
> > year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
> > using it.
> >
> > I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
> > property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
> > near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
> > too many that are quiet.
> >
> > I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed
> out
> > 15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix
> 31
> > chokes to.
> >
> > When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs
> with
> > LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.
> >
> > If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house,
> you
> > should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
> > everyone is out of the house.
> >
> > Mike va3mw
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I might suspect something else...
> > >
> > > Have you done a power off test of your home yet?
> > >
> > > 73, and thanks,
> > > Dave (NK7Z)
> > > https://www.nk7z.net
> > > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> > > ARRL Technical Specialist
> > > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> > >
> > > On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
> > > > I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting
> > > digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
> > > (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
> > > KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable
> to
> > > use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung
> > up
> > > on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the
> > RFI
> > > within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating
> > from
> > > within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers,
> which
> > > are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for
> > the
> > > RFI?
> > > >
> > > > 73, Andreas
> > > >
> > > > K6AKW
> > > > __
> > > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > > >
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> > > > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> > > >
> > > __
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> >
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-- 
--w8lvn--
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Fred Nassar]

Had a similar issue moving to a new QTH. It turned out to be a bad
transformer in the neighborhood. You could call in an RFI complaint once
you rule out your own QTH and asked them to sniff around.

You can also sniff around with a 2 or 6 meter SSB rig if you have one.

Fred
KE4Q

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:47 PM Michael Walker  wrote:

> HI Andreas
>
> Sorry to hear about your noise.
>
> I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
> the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on your
> own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
> year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
> using it.
>
> I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
> property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
> near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
> too many that are quiet.
>
> I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed out
> 15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix 31
> chokes to.
>
> When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs with
> LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.
>
> If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house, you
> should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
> everyone is out of the house.
>
> Mike va3mw
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I might suspect something else...
> >
> > Have you done a power off test of your home yet?
> >
> > 73, and thanks,
> > Dave (NK7Z)
> > https://www.nk7z.net
> > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> > ARRL Technical Specialist
> > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> >
> > On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
> > > I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting
> > digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
> > (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
> > KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to
> > use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung
> up
> > on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the
> RFI
> > within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating
> from
> > within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which
> > are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for
> the
> > RFI?
> > >
> > > 73, Andreas
> > >
> > > K6AKW
> > > __
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> > >
> > __
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> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Michael Walker]

HI Andreas

Sorry to hear about your noise.

I doubt your noise is related to digital TV as that is a long way away in
the frequency world.  It is pretty common to assume that it is not on your
own property.  I saw one guy who said the same thing and then found out a
year later it was his new dryer that was noisy even when they were not
using it.

I would not be surprised that most of your HF noise is within your own
property unless you did some significant research by  holding an AM radio
near each and every power cube or charger for phones, etc.  There are not
too many that are quiet.

I use my KX2 to find most of my HF noise issues and I must have tossed out
15 bad chargers.  The ones I could not just toss away, I had to add Mix 31
chokes to.

When you moved into your new house did you replace all the light bulbs with
LED bulbs?  They can be noisy.

If you haven't taken the time to do an indepth study on your own house, you
should.  You might be surprised.  I would plan an all day exercise when
everyone is out of the house.

Mike va3mw


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:25 PM Dave Cole  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I might suspect something else...
>
> Have you done a power off test of your home yet?
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:
> > I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting
> digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM
> (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and
> KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to
> use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift dipole strung up
> on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate the source of the RFI
> within my home but so far have been unable to locate any RFI emanating from
> within my home. Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which
> are within direct line of sight from my house, might be responsible for the
> RFI?
> >
> > 73, Andreas
> >
> > K6AKW
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> >
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Dave Cole]

Hi,

I might suspect something else...

Have you done a power off test of your home yet?

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW 
ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved 
to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all 
bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve 
tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been 
unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the 
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight from my 
house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Dave Cole]

I have some pages which might help locate your RFI at:

https://www.nk7z.net/i-have-rfi-now-what-locating-it/

Also Jim Brown has a ton of data at:

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 2/18/20 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW 
ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved 
to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all 
bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve 
tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been 
unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the 
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight from my 
house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Jim Brown]

On 2/18/2020 8:29 AM, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

Could it be that the TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct 
line of sight from my house, might be responsible for the RFI?


Very unlikely. This application not provides lots of advice on finding 
and killing noise.  http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Hank via Elecraft]

Have you tried pulling your main AC breaker and running your K3 on a car 
battery?  That way, you are sure that nothing in your house (switching power 
supplies, poor mechanical joints, etc.) is creating the noise.  


I was able to convince my nearest neighbors to shut down their AC panels also 
after my house seemed "clean".  


I finally found 2 bad crimped power line connections down the street from my 
and a home made fence charge at a goat farm about 300yds behind my house 
through the woods.  Another ham and the local power company came and helped.  
The power company did their work and it cleared up several S units, but 
something was still there.  Riding around with a scanner tuned to 1800kHz (AM 
mode) with no antenna connected yielded the goat fence.  The power company came 
out with a listening device to verify my findings.  I offered to buy the farmer 
a fence charger from the hardware store, but he went ahead and did it on his 
own - it really helped having the power company there!!

I still have a neighbor with a noisy plasma TV - an MFJ-1026 with a longwire 
out the window nulls it out quite well when the TV in on.  Eventually the TV 
will die (I'm hoping).

Good luck!
Hank
K4HYJ

 
- Original Message -
From: Andreas Wachter via Elecraft (elecraft@mailman.qth.net)
Date: 02/18/20 12:39
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI issues

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting digital TV 
(KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW 
ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved 
to this QTH a few months ago, I am unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all 
bands using a makeshift dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve 
tried to locate the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been 
unable to locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the 
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight from my 
house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

K6AKW
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI issues

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

One thing to try is an old-fashioned lowpass filter, such as used to be 
common as a measure against TVI. If the problem is caused by the TV/FM 
signals, this should help.


The K3's t/r switch can be overwhelmed by massive signals. I had such a 
problem with a 50 kW AM BC station that's visible from my antenna. I 
solved it by switching from vertical to horizontal polarization, but a 
high-pass filter also worked.


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 18/02/2020 18:29, Andreas Wachter via Elecraft wrote:

I live about 1.6 miles from some tall antenna towers broadcasting
digital TV (KBCB) at 208 kW ERP on channel 19 (500 - 506 MHz) and on
FM (KWPZ-FM) at 63 kW ERP on 106.5MHz - according to FCC info on KBCB
and KWPZ-FM. Ever since I moved to this QTH a few months ago, I am
unable to use my K3: solid S9+ noise on all bands using a makeshift
dipole strung up on some trees outside my house. I’ve tried to locate
the source of the RFI within my home but so far have been unable to
locate any RFI emanating from within my home. Could it be that the
TV/FM stations antenna towers, which are within direct line of sight
from my house, might be responsible for the RFI?

73, Andreas

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI Snapshots...

[Dave Cole (NK7Z)]

That is a very good idea, and I have, and if I get sound with an SDR 
image, I add it to the site...


As you said though, bandwidth, etc., tend to make things sound different 
depending on who uploads.  The real useful thing about the spectrograms 
are that they can be used as a site survey tool as well.  The snapshot 
page was basically and offshoot of this page:


https://www.nk7z.net/sdr-rfi-survey-p1/

which uses an SDRPlay RSP-1 as the SDR engine for a way to characterize, 
or survey your RFI environment.


I ended up with a lot of spectrograms as a result of the site survey 
page, and it occurred to me they might be useful to others in IDing 
RFI...  Now there are almost fifty different shots of RFI there.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
https://www.nk7z.net

On 07/06/2018 05:18 AM, Al Scanandoah wrote:

Dave

Have you considered including sound clips with the snapshots as well? 
Being able to see *and* hear the RFI can go a long way toward making a 
positive ID. Of course, RX mode and bandwidth info would need to be 
included as well.


73 - Al, K2ZN

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI Snapshots...

[Al Scanandoah]

Dave

Have you considered including sound clips with the snapshots as well? 
Being able to see *and* hear the RFI can go a long way toward making a 
positive ID. Of course, RX mode and bandwidth info would need to be 
included as well.


73 - Al, K2ZN



On 7/5/2018 4:22 PM, Dave Cole (NK7Z) wrote:
I have compiled a set of snapshots of various RFI sources from a 
number of folks that were kind enough to send them in to me.  They are 
at:


https://www.nk7z.net/rfi-snapshots/

There are close to 50 different images showing various sources there...

I am always looking for a P3 image of RFI of a KNOWN source...


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft]

Let's end this recurring thread for now in the interest of relieving email 
topic overload for others :-)

Its well exceeding our single OT posting limit and has a wealth of past posts 
on this topic in our nabble archives etc. 

73,
Eric (a.k.a. Mr. Moderator)
elecraft.com
---
Sent from my iPhone 6S

> On Jun 22, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Edward R Cole  wrote:
> 
> One can convert red/black zip wire pretty easily:  zip wire separates by 
> pulling the red side away from the black so you  end up with two separate 
> wires (you can even leave the power-pole connector on one end).  Then twist 
> the two wires to obtain twisted-pair.  No waste of those existing power 
> cables.
> 
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
>"Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
>dubus...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Edward R Cole]

One can convert red/black zip wire pretty easily:  zip wire separates 
by pulling the red side away from the black so you  end up with two 
separate wires (you can even leave the power-pole connector on one 
end).  Then twist the two wires to obtain twisted-pair.  No waste of 
those existing power cables.



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[David Ahrendts]

Dwight, here’s one example of a shield twisted pair: Belden 12/2 5000FE:  
http://www.showmecables.com/product/Belden-2-Conductor-12-Awg-Stranded-Shielded-Cable-Per-FT.aspx
 

Twisted pair. Foil shielded. Ground.  I looked at this and found a cheaper, 
non-plenum version from another brand (will get you the exact name in a 
separate post). 
So I’ve replaced all zip cable lines and many of the smaller Elecraft lines 
too. Trashed the noisy Samsung switching PS (14V DC) used for the Elecraft SVGA 
display and made a new shielded cable to the Powererx PS and on and on.
Highly effective method to reduce RFI. Pretty convinced noise is not going to 
enter the system through these shielded cables.

David A., KK6DA, Los Angeles 


> On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:44 AM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE  
> wrote:
> 
> Works great!
> 
> Do it all the time.  Father showed me how 50 years ago, the same way
> Vic describes it ;o)
> 
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 07:44:19 +0300, you wrote:
> 
>> Get some no. 10 stranded wire at Home Depot (etc.), double it over, put one 
>> end in a vise and the other in the chuck of your electric drill and twist 
>> away. Not shielded, but much better than parallel wires. I suppose you could 
>> strip some RG-8 if you really wanted to shield it.
>> 
>> Vic 4X6GP
>> 
>>> On 20 Jun 2016, at 22:54, DGB  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim ... where does one find #10 twisted pair? Is it shielded?
>>> 
>>> thanks 73 Dwight NS9I
>>> 
 On 6/20/2016 12:59 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Mon,6/20/2016 10:33 AM, James Walker wrote:
> Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3?
 
 What you're seeing sounds like IR drop in the DC cable. How long is the DC 
 cable between the K3 and the power supply? What wire gauge? Is there any 
 equipment (like distribution panel) in between?
 
 This is a great application for a short length of #10 twisted pair between 
 the PSU and rig.
 
 73, Jim K9YC
>>> 
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David Ahrendts   davidahren...@me.com   




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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Jim Brown]

Hi Jimmy,

While I've not investigated it myself, I've been told by those who have 
that the bus conductors inside some of these boxes are not very robust. 
In my station, I've made my own cable splices using Power Pole 
connectors. One pair, as short as I can make it, goes directly to the 
K3, another goes to a Rig Runner box that feeds power to other boxes 
that don't draw much current (preamp for Beverages, antenna switching, 
SO2R box, etc.).


73, Jim K9YC

On Mon,6/20/2016 6:54 PM, James Walker wrote:
You may have something there. I use a rig runner device to divide the 
power supply output among several rigs. I’m going to try some rewiring 
to get a shorter, more direct connection. Thanks. 



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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,6/20/2016 6:50 PM, K9MA wrote:

Call them what you will, connecting a bunch of station components to a common 
DC power return has to be done very carefully.


Yes, it does. The rules are quite simple, and are articulated in the 
Power Point slides I referenced by a link. It's nothing more complicated 
than proper bonding between equipment, and between that equipment and 
all grounded parts of a building.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Drew AF2Z]

Also, the Elecraft supplied DC zip cord can be twisted by hand pretty 
easily.


RFI from wall-wart SMPS supplies might be improved by twisting their 
cords...


73,
Drew
AF2Z



On 06/21/16 00:44, Vic Rosenthal wrote:

Get some no. 10 stranded wire at Home Depot (etc.), double it over, put one end 
in a vise and the other in the chuck of your electric drill and twist away. Not 
shielded, but much better than parallel wires. I suppose you could strip some 
RG-8 if you really wanted to shield it.

Vic 4X6GP


On 20 Jun 2016, at 22:54, DGB  wrote:


Jim ... where does one find #10 twisted pair? Is it shielded?

thanks 73 Dwight NS9I



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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Amateur Radio Operator N5GE]

Works great!

Do it all the time.  Father showed me how 50 years ago, the same way
Vic describes it ;o)

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 07:44:19 +0300, you wrote:

>Get some no. 10 stranded wire at Home Depot (etc.), double it over, put one 
>end in a vise and the other in the chuck of your electric drill and twist 
>away. Not shielded, but much better than parallel wires. I suppose you could 
>strip some RG-8 if you really wanted to shield it.
>
>Vic 4X6GP
>
>> On 20 Jun 2016, at 22:54, DGB  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Jim ... where does one find #10 twisted pair? Is it shielded?
>> 
>> thanks 73 Dwight NS9I
>> 
>>> On 6/20/2016 12:59 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
 On Mon,6/20/2016 10:33 AM, James Walker wrote:
 Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3?
>>> 
>>> What you're seeing sounds like IR drop in the DC cable. How long is the DC 
>>> cable between the K3 and the power supply? What wire gauge? Is there any 
>>> equipment (like distribution panel) in between?
>>> 
>>> This is a great application for a short length of #10 twisted pair between 
>>> the PSU and rig.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
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ARS N5GE

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[G4GNX - Alan]

If that question was directed at me, the answer is that my issues were not 
using my K3 and I only needed to turn off the tuner supply.


73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Ramon Tristani

Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 6:14 PM
To: G4GNX
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

How can you detect the drifting if RF if Iyou have to turn off the K-3 and 
the P3?



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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Vic Rosenthal]

Get some no. 10 stranded wire at Home Depot (etc.), double it over, put one end 
in a vise and the other in the chuck of your electric drill and twist away. Not 
shielded, but much better than parallel wires. I suppose you could strip some 
RG-8 if you really wanted to shield it.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 20 Jun 2016, at 22:54, DGB  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jim ... where does one find #10 twisted pair? Is it shielded?
> 
> thanks 73 Dwight NS9I
> 
>> On 6/20/2016 12:59 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon,6/20/2016 10:33 AM, James Walker wrote:
>>> Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3?
>> 
>> What you're seeing sounds like IR drop in the DC cable. How long is the DC 
>> cable between the K3 and the power supply? What wire gauge? Is there any 
>> equipment (like distribution panel) in between?
>> 
>> This is a great application for a short length of #10 twisted pair between 
>> the PSU and rig.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[K9MA]

Call them what you will, connecting a bunch of station components to a common 
DC power return has to be done very carefully. I've found that often the 
easiest solution is isolated power sources.  Some accessories seem to be 
designed with the assumption of ground isolation using a dedicated wall wart. 

But I'm not going to argue about it. 

73,

Scott. K9MA

--

Scott Ellington

 --- via iPad

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 7:26 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon,6/20/2016 4:38 PM, K9MA wrote:
>> Beware ground loops!
> 
> Horse puckey -- ground loops do not exist, and this very false concept has 
> caused hams to do completely wrong things to solve problems with hum, buzz, 
> and RFI.
> 
> http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Fred Jensen]

I've been told that the "loop" part of "ground loop" is a misnomer.  I 
think the real problem is when a "chassis" connection doesn't really go 
to the conductive enclosure but rather follows on into the "ground" in 
the circuitry, which is probably better termed "common".  In the olden 
days, finding a connection to the "chassis" [i.e. enclosure] was a snap. 
 They were big, heavy, and obvious.  Not so much today.  Finding the 
"chassis" connection on a laptop can be a challenge.


73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 6/20/2016 4:38 PM, K9MA wrote:

Beware ground loops!

73,

Scott. K9MA


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,6/20/2016 4:38 PM, K9MA wrote:

Beware ground loops!


Horse puckey -- ground loops do not exist, and this very false concept 
has caused hams to do completely wrong things to solve problems with 
hum, buzz, and RFI.


http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[K9MA]

Beware ground loops!

73,

Scott. K9MA

--

Scott Ellington

 --- via iPad

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 12:21 PM, Clay Autery  wrote:
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> One of my goals is to completely eliminate wall warts in my shack.  I
> planned to use a nice quiet multi-voltage output PS(s) and/or buck/boost
> converters (or other circuitry) to supply power to every device in the
> shack reducing the clutter/complexity/potential culprits.
> Now, I am considering modifying that plan to battery(ies) with quiet
> charger(s) and circuitry to provide required voltages for all devices. 
> Then move out and do the same for the home network, and all other DC
> devices...
> 
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
> 
>> On 6/20/2016 12:06 PM, G4GNX wrote:
>> FWIW I still have a few issues with RFi, but I've managed to cure two
>> of the major ones, the rest are a matter of finding time.
>> 
>> At present, I'm running an MFJ 1500W auto-tuner which needs a 12V
>> supply for the display, logic and relays. I had a massive drifting
>> "birdie" on 40 metres, but it didn't always appear on the same
>> frequency. I found that it shifted frequency with minor changes in
>> load, caused by using different relays within the tuner. I replaced
>> the switch mode PSU and all is now good.
>> 
>> The second major issue was mainly on 2 metres, but there were also
>> sprogs on other bands. This turned out to be a PC PSU which despite an
>> application of ferrite rings, would not lie down! I found that if the
>> PC was put into 'sleep' mode, it would go quiet. I finally replaced
>> the PSU - problem solved.
>> 
>> Just a few thoughts on what you might look for.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Alan. G4GNX
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

['DGB']

Jim ... where does one find #10 twisted pair? Is it shielded?

thanks 73 Dwight NS9I

On 6/20/2016 12:59 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Mon,6/20/2016 10:33 AM, James Walker wrote:

Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3?


What you're seeing sounds like IR drop in the DC cable. How long is 
the DC cable between the K3 and the power supply? What wire gauge? Is 
there any equipment (like distribution panel) in between?


This is a great application for a short length of #10 twisted pair 
between the PSU and rig.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Don Wilhelm]

Jimmy,

The voltage at your power supply may indeed be OK, but somewhere in the 
path to the K3, there is a huge resistance.


Possible causes:
- Lugs not tight at the power supply.  Tighten nuts with a wrench.
- Wire gauge inadequate for the K3 load on transmit - use #12 or better #10.
- Long power leads having too much wire resistance - related to above - 
use short wire.
- Incorrectly assembled Anderson Power Pole connector - look at the end 
of the housing.  If you can see the spring metal locking finger below 
the contact blade, it is not correctly assembled - push on the contact 
blade from the rear until the contact blade locks over the spring finger.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2016 1:33 PM, James Walker wrote:

This thread has lead me to notice the comments on operating voltage. I’ve been 
having some trouble with my K-3 and the MCU LD message on startup. It was 
suggested that I monitor the voltage on the rig during operation. I get the 
13.5 on receive. But the voltage drops as low as 10.5 on 100 watt transmit. I 
have an Astron power supply that is rated at 35 amps, very conservative for 
this usage. I have used it to power 100 watt rigs in the past with no problem.

Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3? The power 
supply has meters for amps and volts and the voltage indicated during power 
cycles is unchanged. So it appears the voltage drop is at the rig. I can ever 
see dimming of the dial light in some situations. I don’t think the power 
supply is failing since I don’t notice these symptoms with any other rigs. And 
no, I never use the power supply for more than one rig at a time.




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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Bill]

I replaced two OLD astrons (over 30 years on each) last summer with a 
couple of Powerwerx SS-30DVs and have had no problems with noise at all.


Having said that, I should qualify my statement: I have a typical noise 
level of band noise only. In other words, I receive no noise from local 
modern conveniences. My antennas are 100 feet from the house. Distance 
makes a wonderful noise insulator.


When I switch to a multi-band dipole fastened to an eave corner of the 
house - the noise will jump a couple of S units. That is the local 
modern crap that infests the house. And, that is why my regular antennas 
are well removed from the house.


By the way, those new power supplies do not even cause a problem on the 
close in antenna. Very quiet.


Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

Understand...  I am conserving/reserving as much space as possible for
amps and amp PS...  and TMDE equipment.

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On 6/20/2016 1:19 PM, Rick Robinson wrote:
> I guess space might be a concern on large current supply's. There are
> ways around that but I was mainly thinking qrp level power supply's.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

That is woefully unacceptable voltage regulation...  you have an issue. 
I believe the MAX spread on the K3 is 11-15 VDC IIRC.

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On 6/20/2016 12:33 PM, James Walker wrote:
> This thread has lead me to notice the comments on operating voltage. I’ve 
> been having some trouble with my K-3 and the MCU LD message on startup. It 
> was suggested that I monitor the voltage on the rig during operation. I get 
> the 13.5 on receive. But the voltage drops as low as 10.5 on 100 watt 
> transmit. I have an Astron power supply that is rated at 35 amps, very 
> conservative for this usage. I have used it to power 100 watt rigs in the 
> past with no problem.
>
> Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3? The power 
> supply has meters for amps and volts and the voltage indicated during power 
> cycles is unchanged. So it appears the voltage drop is at the rig. I can ever 
> see dimming of the dial light in some situations. I don’t think the power 
> supply is failing since I don’t notice these symptoms with any other rigs. 
> And no, I never use the power supply for more than one rig at a time.
>
> Jimmy Walker
> WA4ILO
> Macon, GA
>
> On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Clay Autery 
> mailto:caut...@montac.com>> wrote:
>
> Mine IS one of the newer ones that was originally 14.19 VDC.  I
> learned where the pot was at HAMCOM, and the first thing I did when I
> got home was adjust it to provide the K3s 13.8.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

Haven't yet...  more of a general term to cover devicets/circuits to
change a base voltage out to multiple needed.

Many ways to skin that particular cat...  ;)

73,

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On 6/20/2016 12:27 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Clay,
>
> Where do you find buck/boost converters that are other than switch
> mode devices?
> Most all I have seen are similar to switch mode power supplies.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 't yet...
> On 6/20/2016 1:21 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Rick Robinson]

I guess space might be a concern on large current supply's. There are ways
around that but I was mainly thinking qrp level power supply's.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Clay Autery  wrote:

> On 6/20/2016 12:03 PM, Rick Robinson wrote:
> > Why, if the weight would not be a factor, do folks want to take a chance
> on
> > a potentially noisy ps ?
>
> Because some of us are EXTREMELY limited on space...  My entire shack
> must fit in a cube 4 feet x 3 feet by 8 feet.
> I suspect there are other reasons, like not wanting to lift/move 30-50
> pound components, et al.
>
> 73,
>
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> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[David Bunte]

James -

The first thing I would do is check the voltage at the K3.  If you have a
long run of cable from your PS, of if you have connectors that are not
fully seated, or correctly installed, that would likely result in voltage
drop that would be detrimental.

Best of luck es 73 de Dave - K9FN

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:33 PM, James Walker 
wrote:

> This thread has lead me to notice the comments on operating voltage. I’ve
> been having some trouble with my K-3 and the MCU LD message on startup. It
> was suggested that I monitor the voltage on the rig during operation. I get
> the 13.5 on receive. But the voltage drops as low as 10.5 on 100 watt
> transmit. I have an Astron power supply that is rated at 35 amps, very
> conservative for this usage. I have used it to power 100 watt rigs in the
> past with no problem.
>
> Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3? The power
> supply has meters for amps and volts and the voltage indicated during power
> cycles is unchanged. So it appears the voltage drop is at the rig. I can
> ever see dimming of the dial light in some situations. I don’t think the
> power supply is failing since I don’t notice these symptoms with any other
> rigs. And no, I never use the power supply for more than one rig at a time.
>
> Jimmy Walker
> WA4ILO
> Macon, GA
>
> On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Clay Autery  caut...@montac.com>> wrote:
>
> Mine IS one of the newer ones that was originally 14.19 VDC.  I
> learned where the pot was at HAMCOM, and the first thing I did when I
> got home was adjust it to provide the K3s 13.8.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,6/20/2016 10:33 AM, James Walker wrote:

Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3?


What you're seeing sounds like IR drop in the DC cable. How long is the 
DC cable between the K3 and the power supply? What wire gauge? Is there 
any equipment (like distribution panel) in between?


This is a great application for a short length of #10 twisted pair 
between the PSU and rig.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[James Walker]

This thread has lead me to notice the comments on operating voltage. I’ve been 
having some trouble with my K-3 and the MCU LD message on startup. It was 
suggested that I monitor the voltage on the rig during operation. I get the 
13.5 on receive. But the voltage drops as low as 10.5 on 100 watt transmit. I 
have an Astron power supply that is rated at 35 amps, very conservative for 
this usage. I have used it to power 100 watt rigs in the past with no problem.

Is it normal to register voltage as low as I’m seeing on my K-3? The power 
supply has meters for amps and volts and the voltage indicated during power 
cycles is unchanged. So it appears the voltage drop is at the rig. I can ever 
see dimming of the dial light in some situations. I don’t think the power 
supply is failing since I don’t notice these symptoms with any other rigs. And 
no, I never use the power supply for more than one rig at a time.

Jimmy Walker
WA4ILO
Macon, GA

On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Clay Autery 
mailto:caut...@montac.com>> wrote:

Mine IS one of the newer ones that was originally 14.19 VDC.  I
learned where the pot was at HAMCOM, and the first thing I did when I
got home was adjust it to provide the K3s 13.8.

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Bill Frantz]

I frequently use my KX3 for portable operation after an airplane 
trip. A light weight PS is a big plus since I am frequently near 
the 50 lb (22 Kg) limit.


BTW, I have been quite happy with my Pro Audio Engineering 
PAE-Kx33 power supply, even in rural New Hampshire with the 
associated very low levels of RFI.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 6/20/16 at 10:03 AM, rickw...@gmail.com (Rick Robinson) wrote:

most everyone wants a smps instead of a small 3 amp linear 
supply. ... It seems like a lot of folks operate from home and 
want a smps.

Why, if the weight would not be a factor, do folks want to take a chance on
a potentially noisy ps ?


---
Bill Frantz| "The only thing we have to   | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | fear is fear itself." - FDR  | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Don Wilhelm]

Clay,

Where do you find buck/boost converters that are other than switch mode 
devices?

Most all I have seen are similar to switch mode power supplies.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2016 1:21 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

One of my goals is to completely eliminate wall warts in my shack.  I
planned to use a nice quiet multi-voltage output PS(s) and/or buck/boost
converters (or other circuitry) to supply power to every device in the
shack


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

Thanks...

One of my goals is to completely eliminate wall warts in my shack.  I
planned to use a nice quiet multi-voltage output PS(s) and/or buck/boost
converters (or other circuitry) to supply power to every device in the
shack reducing the clutter/complexity/potential culprits.
Now, I am considering modifying that plan to battery(ies) with quiet
charger(s) and circuitry to provide required voltages for all devices. 
Then move out and do the same for the home network, and all other DC
devices...

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On 6/20/2016 12:06 PM, G4GNX wrote:
> FWIW I still have a few issues with RFi, but I've managed to cure two
> of the major ones, the rest are a matter of finding time.
>
> At present, I'm running an MFJ 1500W auto-tuner which needs a 12V
> supply for the display, logic and relays. I had a massive drifting
> "birdie" on 40 metres, but it didn't always appear on the same
> frequency. I found that it shifted frequency with minor changes in
> load, caused by using different relays within the tuner. I replaced
> the switch mode PSU and all is now good.
>
> The second major issue was mainly on 2 metres, but there were also
> sprogs on other bands. This turned out to be a PC PSU which despite an
> application of ferrite rings, would not lie down! I found that if the
> PC was put into 'sleep' mode, it would go quiet. I finally replaced
> the PSU - problem solved.
>
> Just a few thoughts on what you might look for.
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

On 6/20/2016 12:03 PM, Rick Robinson wrote:
> Why, if the weight would not be a factor, do folks want to take a chance on
> a potentially noisy ps ? 

Because some of us are EXTREMELY limited on space...  My entire shack
must fit in a cube 4 feet x 3 feet by 8 feet.
I suspect there are other reasons, like not wanting to lift/move 30-50
pound components, et al.

73,

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(318) 518-1389

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Ramon Tristani]

How can you detect the drifting if RF if Iyou have to turn off the K-3 and the 
P3?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:06 PM, G4GNX  wrote:
> 
> FWIW I still have a few issues with RFi, but I've managed to cure two of the 
> major ones, the rest are a matter of finding time.
> 
> At present, I'm running an MFJ 1500W auto-tuner which needs a 12V supply for 
> the display, logic and relays. I had a massive drifting "birdie" on 40 
> metres, but it didn't always appear on the same frequency. I found that it 
> shifted frequency with minor changes in load, caused by using different 
> relays within the tuner. I replaced the switch mode PSU and all is now good.
> 
> The second major issue was mainly on 2 metres, but there were also sprogs on 
> other bands. This turned out to be a PC PSU which despite an application of 
> ferrite rings, would not lie down! I found that if the PC was put into 
> 'sleep' mode, it would go quiet. I finally replaced the PSU - problem solved.
> 
> Just a few thoughts on what you might look for.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Alan. G4GNX
> 
> -Original Message----- From: Clay Autery
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 5:41 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
> 
> Marc and Drew,
> 
> Appreciate the feedback... Checking my PS is my first test.  Will power
> off all circuits except the one to my shack that runs the AC to the PS.
> Then I'll A/B with radio on battery and on the PS.  (PS
> air-gapped/unplugged when on batt).
> If it is the PS, I'll try to choke the I/O power leads first before
> doing anything else.
> 
> I've a strong feeling it is NOT the SS-30DV...  My antenna is an 80m
> loop outside at 38-40 feet.  Fed with 300 ladder to the 6:1 balun.  Only
> 15-20 feet of coax total (LMR240-DB with N-Connectors) direct from balun
> to radio.
> 
> Before I do anything beyond IDing culprits, I have to address other
> shortcomings first:  1) Insufficient service ground, 2) no shack ground,
> 3) no bond from non-existent shack ground to service ground.  :(
> Knew I should have done those things BEFORE I went OTA...  the mic/K3 is
> a huge distraction from my TO DO list.  ;)
> 
> 73,
> 
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> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

LOL!  Mine IS one of the newer ones that was originally 14.19 VDC.  I
learned where the pot was at HAMCOM, and the first thing I did when I
got home was adjust it to provide the K3s 13.8.
I am aware that this voided my warranty...  I'd rather eat the cost of a
new SS-30DV and KNOW I'm feeding the $$$ K3s as close to spec as
possible.  (yes, I am THAT OCD).

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On 6/20/2016 11:44 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> FWIW, the ss-30dv that Elecraft sells is listed at 14.1 VDC. Older
> units sold elsewhere were listed at lower output voltage but you can
> adjust an internal pot to bring them up to 14.1. t
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[G4GNX]

FWIW I still have a few issues with RFi, but I've managed to cure two of the 
major ones, the rest are a matter of finding time.


At present, I'm running an MFJ 1500W auto-tuner which needs a 12V supply for 
the display, logic and relays. I had a massive drifting "birdie" on 40 
metres, but it didn't always appear on the same frequency. I found that it 
shifted frequency with minor changes in load, caused by using different 
relays within the tuner. I replaced the switch mode PSU and all is now good.


The second major issue was mainly on 2 metres, but there were also sprogs on 
other bands. This turned out to be a PC PSU which despite an application of 
ferrite rings, would not lie down! I found that if the PC was put into 
'sleep' mode, it would go quiet. I finally replaced the PSU - problem 
solved.


Just a few thoughts on what you might look for.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Clay Autery

Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 5:41 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

Marc and Drew,

Appreciate the feedback... Checking my PS is my first test.  Will power
off all circuits except the one to my shack that runs the AC to the PS.
Then I'll A/B with radio on battery and on the PS.  (PS
air-gapped/unplugged when on batt).
If it is the PS, I'll try to choke the I/O power leads first before
doing anything else.

I've a strong feeling it is NOT the SS-30DV...  My antenna is an 80m
loop outside at 38-40 feet.  Fed with 300 ladder to the 6:1 balun.  Only
15-20 feet of coax total (LMR240-DB with N-Connectors) direct from balun
to radio.

Before I do anything beyond IDing culprits, I have to address other
shortcomings first:  1) Insufficient service ground, 2) no shack ground,
3) no bond from non-existent shack ground to service ground.  :(
Knew I should have done those things BEFORE I went OTA...  the mic/K3 is
a huge distraction from my TO DO list.  ;)

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Rick Robinson]

Dave, you have brought up something I have wondered about for some time. I
have had my kx3 for three plus years and have been on many lists and most
everyone wants a smps instead of a small 3 amp linear supply. Radio Shack
and many others made these supply's and they are plentiful at Hamfests for
10-20 USD. It seems like a lot of folks operate from home and want a smps .
Why, if the weight would not be a factor, do folks want to take a chance on
a potentially noisy ps ? I use a big linear supply which also feeds my
IC7200 but if the need arises I use a small linear supply. I do have a nice
switcher which I do not notice any noise but it is used a bench supply. It
is a Alinco something 330. Variable output and has noise shift. Anyway, I
don't want to hijack this thread, just wondering.

On Monday, June 20, 2016, Dave B via Elecraft 
wrote:

> Cant help thinking, that the charge to discharge "Efficiency" is probably
> no better than a good linear PSU, but you do I guess get the "Off grid"
> option for EMCOM work..
>
> There ARE (RF)quiet SMPS's out there, but not priced in a way that will
> suit the average Ham's budget.   You get what you pay for.  Oh, and they
> tend to be large too, due to the filtering.
>
> Quite honestly, for "Amateur" work, where the rig will usually spend most
> of it's life in RX, a linear PSU is just fine.   Plus, you can fix them
> when things fail.   Try that with a modern well suppresed QRO SMPS!..
>
> 73.
>
> Dave G0WBX.
>
>
> ~~~ Original message.
>
> From: Marc Veeneman
> To:pu...@af2z.net
> Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
> Message-ID:<768828b9-af69-479e-8e38-2fbeec234...@yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii
>
> My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes, ruining CW
> on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt switching supply that
> can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely to batteries rather than use
> quiet but inefficient linear supplies.
>
>  Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I leave
> that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did find one
> SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an Optimate brand
> product but only produces 5 amps.
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to rickw...@gmail.com
>


-- 
Rick, W8ZT

Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

I'm an old network guy, and have added "elimination of all parallel
conductor cables" to my TODO list in favor of UTP/STP.
Bottom Line:  I want to quiet my "shack" as much as possible such that
any significant RFI has to be external...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 10:51 AM, David Ahrendts wrote:
> Gents, that’s my setup also with K3S #10125, and I’m convinced the
> Powerwerx SS-30DV is a stable, quiet, top-notch amp recommended by the
> fine people a Elecraft (it’s what they use on the road). However,
> thanks to some great advice from people here, I have eliminated the
> black-red zip cable from all uses in my station. Zip line, or for that
> matter, any parallel cable, like monster speaker cable, is highly
> susceptible to RFI. This was a lesson from the early days of stringing
> telephone cable. The solution: twisted pairs, and even better in 2016,
> _shielded_ twisted pairs. So every power cable has been replaced in my
> station with shielded twisted pairs, further protected with ferrite
> snap-on beads. Even further, I’ve eliminated every switching power
> supply nearby. It has helped immensely.   
> That said, some of those pesky slowly drifting S9+ noise bumps still
> live! 
>
> David A., KK6DA, Los Angeles
>
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Drew AF2Z]

FWIW, the ss-30dv that Elecraft sells is listed at 14.1 VDC. Older units 
sold elsewhere were listed at lower output voltage but you can adjust an 
internal pot to bring them up to 14.1.


73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/16 11:30, Clay Autery wrote:

I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389





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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,6/20/2016 3:46 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

The last page says it is page 17 of 19...  What's on the last 2 pages?

Last two pages is stuff I deleted. :)


BTW, nice job on the new paper on RFI!


 Thanks!

73, Jim


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

Marc and Drew,

Appreciate the feedback... Checking my PS is my first test.  Will power
off all circuits except the one to my shack that runs the AC to the PS. 
Then I'll A/B with radio on battery and on the PS.  (PS
air-gapped/unplugged when on batt).
If it is the PS, I'll try to choke the I/O power leads first before
doing anything else.

I've a strong feeling it is NOT the SS-30DV...  My antenna is an 80m
loop outside at 38-40 feet.  Fed with 300 ladder to the 6:1 balun.  Only
15-20 feet of coax total (LMR240-DB with N-Connectors) direct from balun
to radio.

Before I do anything beyond IDing culprits, I have to address other
shortcomings first:  1) Insufficient service ground, 2) no shack ground,
3) no bond from non-existent shack ground to service ground.  :(
Knew I should have done those things BEFORE I went OTA...  the mic/K3 is
a huge distraction from my TO DO list.  ;)

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 7:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> I do also have multiple turns of the p/s power cord wound through a
> large toroid, just for good measure. I investigated the Powerwerx at
> one time when I was having some RFI problems, comparing it side by
> side with a linear supply, and just didn't find the ss-30dv to be a
> problem. My main problem was the DSL modem, and perhaps copper phone
> lines, now eliminated by Fios internet.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
>
> On 06/20/16 07:59, Marc Veeneman wrote:
>> My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes,
>> ruining CW on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt
>> switching supply that can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely
>> to batteries rather than use quiet but inefficient linear supplies.
>>
>>   Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I
>> leave that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did
>> find one SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an
>> Optimate brand product but only produces 5 amps.

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Dave B via Elecraft]

Cant help thinking, that the charge to discharge "Efficiency" is probably no better than 
a good linear PSU, but you do I guess get the "Off grid" option for EMCOM work..

There ARE (RF)quiet SMPS's out there, but not priced in a way that will suit 
the average Ham's budget.   You get what you pay for.  Oh, and they tend to be 
large too, due to the filtering.

Quite honestly, for "Amateur" work, where the rig will usually spend most of 
it's life in RX, a linear PSU is just fine.   Plus, you can fix them when things fail.   
Try that with a modern well suppresed QRO SMPS!..

73.

Dave G0WBX.


~~~ Original message.

From: Marc Veeneman
To:pu...@af2z.net
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
Message-ID:<768828b9-af69-479e-8e38-2fbeec234...@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes, ruining CW on 80 
meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt switching supply that can 
provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely to batteries rather than use quiet 
but inefficient linear supplies.

 Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I leave that for 
non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did find one SMPS for LiFePO4 
batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an Optimate brand product but only 
produces 5 amps.


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[David Ahrendts]

Gents, that’s my setup also with K3S #10125, and I’m convinced the Powerwerx 
SS-30DV is a stable, quiet, top-notch amp recommended by the fine people a 
Elecraft (it’s what they use on the road). However, thanks to some great advice 
from people here, I have eliminated the black-red zip cable from all uses in my 
station. Zip line, or for that matter, any parallel cable, like monster speaker 
cable, is highly susceptible to RFI. This was a lesson from the early days of 
stringing telephone cable. The solution: twisted pairs, and even better in 
2016, shielded twisted pairs. So every power cable has been replaced in my 
station with shielded twisted pairs, further protected with ferrite snap-on 
beads. Even further, I’ve eliminated every switching power supply nearby. It 
has helped immensely.   
That said, some of those pesky slowly drifting S9+ noise bumps still live! 

David A., KK6DA, Los Angeles



I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 6:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS
> would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even
> listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.
> 
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z



> On Jun 20, 2016, at 8:15 AM, Clay Autery  wrote:
> 
> On 6/20/2016 5:28 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Sometimes you can "get a feeling", where they are located by watching
>> the timing...  Do they drift in the morning, and after sunset, if so,
>> the SMPS might be outside, on in a non temperature controlled area, if
>> not it might be inside...  
>> 
>> Do they happen at set intervals?  Time to do the power off test to your
>> home and see if they go away...  If you are lucky they will...
>> 
>> If they do, bring the house up one breaker at a time, looking for the
>> RFI to start...  If not, then set up S-Meter Lite, look for patterns,
>> then after a week or so of recording what is happening, take out a loop
>> and start looking for it...
> Thank you...  I think I will TRACK when they are stable vs. drifting... 
> First, I need to find a good battery and QUIET float charger for the K3/P3.
> 
> Lot of info in short reply.  S-Meter Lite...  Thanks!  Got it now.
> Need to research/build the loop(s).
> 
> 73,
> 
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389




David Ahrendts   davidahren...@me.com   




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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 6:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS
> would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even
> listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Clay Autery]

On 6/20/2016 5:28 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Sometimes you can "get a feeling", where they are located by watching
> the timing...  Do they drift in the morning, and after sunset, if so,
> the SMPS might be outside, on in a non temperature controlled area, if
> not it might be inside...  
>
> Do they happen at set intervals?  Time to do the power off test to your
> home and see if they go away...  If you are lucky they will...
>
> If they do, bring the house up one breaker at a time, looking for the
> RFI to start...  If not, then set up S-Meter Lite, look for patterns,
> then after a week or so of recording what is happening, take out a loop
> and start looking for it...
Thank you...  I think I will TRACK when they are stable vs. drifting... 
First, I need to find a good battery and QUIET float charger for the K3/P3.

Lot of info in short reply.  S-Meter Lite...  Thanks!  Got it now.
Need to research/build the loop(s).

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[K9MA]

I've also used that Samlex supply, with no sign of RFI. 

Scott. K9MA

--

Scott Ellington

 --- via iPad

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Marty Koszewski  wrote:
> 
> I had the same issue.  It was caused by my Powerwerx SS-30DV.   After trying 
> a number of things to mitigate the noise, I ended up replacing the power 
> supply with a Samlex SEC 1235M.  Noise gone.  Problem solved.
> 
> Marty - K1MTK
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:55:59 -0500
> From: Clay Autery 
> To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Subject: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
> 20MHz thru 30MHz plus...
> 
> See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
> appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
> location within the spectrum  Almost a sine wave function with a
> VERY long period.
> 
> Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
> switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
> the whole house as the XYL was home) EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
> running the K3s/P3.
> 
> Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
> 
> 
> 
> -
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s

[Marty Koszewski]

I had the same issue.  It was caused by my Powerwerx SS-30DV.   After trying a 
number of things to mitigate the noise, I ended up replacing the power supply 
with a Samlex SEC 1235M.  Noise gone.  Problem solved.

Marty - K1MTK


---




Message: 20
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:55:59 -0500
From: Clay Autery 
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
20MHz thru 30MHz plus...

See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
location within the spectrum  Almost a sine wave function with a
VERY long period.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
the whole house as the XYL was home) EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
running the K3s/P3.

Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...



-- 
__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389



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