RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Agreed, as is the easiest solution - physical separation between EUT and the traffic generator. All peripherals that are driven by the EUT are located within short physical distance as prescribed by the various standards, but Ethernet devices CAN BE, meters and kilometers apart so I take the position that the traffic generator can be physically separated from EUT as well. Besides, I can't see the data flow and errors in real time if the analyzer were in the chamber with EUT. Real peripherals running next to the EUT, test generators removed. In at least one instance I could monitor my traffic quite nicely as long as I didn't try to move the mouse that was connected to the analyzer because it was locked up. Plugged the opening into the immunity chamber and problem went away. It is still a much better way to generate and monitor the traffic and errors it just takes a little bit of caution. Gary I think that if you ever tried to run an RF immunity or radiated emissions test on these analyzers it would perform horribly. -Original Message- From: Douglas C. Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 2:18 PM To: Gary McInturff Cc: Pommerenke, David; Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Hi All, Just a word of caution about test equipment used to measure EUT performance, such as a LAN-analyzer or similar equipment that counts errors. My experience has been that some of this equipment is itself very susceptible to EMI. In a recent case, I had to move a bit-error tester to the other side of the lab on the end of a fiber in order for it not to register errors while testing the EUT. It was so sensitive that low levels of ESD in the room (not applied to the EUT), that did not affect the EUT itself, caused the test equipment to register many false positive error counts. On a similar point, on that same job, I found the lab scope (a modern 5 GSa/sec unit) was itself susceptible. One of my techniques to measure EMI induced noise on a board would not work because the scope displayed more noise with a closed 50 Ohm termination, instead of my measurement apparatus, on its input BNC than the noise I was trying to measure in the first place. Doug Gary McInturff wrote: Yup, when we do immunity testing - we see the occassional crc error or the ilk, but I've never seen a problem with the link. We use an Ixia box to cram data down the lines. There are probably many other traffic generators that will work just fine but none of them are pocket change. Gary -Original Message- From: Pommerenke, David [mailto:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:28 AM To: Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 What you should take into account is the failure criteria for 61000-4-6 as seen by the EU: No degradation beyond manufactueres specification. Depending on the EUT just a few additional bit-errors at any of the tested frequencies may be a fail. It may not be sufficient to just look at loss of link. In many cases, a low level LAN-analyzer is needed to do this test. Otherwise, effects of lessere severeness than loosing link will not be detected, although they may be a fail of the test. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:53 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 From David Sterner's message: Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. What! The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet. The last product that I took through the lab couldn't even take 3V...heck, the Ethernet cable couldn't even take 3V being put on some of the other cables in the chassis. Now, before everybody sends me design tips for Ethernet immunity...save your breath... the chassis was a purchased computer. It was EMC tested (with only a dummy ethernet cable and no traffic, mind you). And I have no design control of the ethernet circuit. We ended up using shielded Ethernet cables and invoking the 3meter rule. The point that I'm trying to make is...I'm glad that this test is trivial for your products. Obviously, you have a good design there(Where were you when we were looking for a compliant mainframe to use with our system?) But this type of immunity performance cannot be attributed to all Ethernet ports in general or to the Ethernet protocol in general. Best regards, Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1
Re: High Temp Caps and Inductors
In a message dated 4/19/02 5:01:40 PM Central Daylight Time, j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes: It might be helpful to have an idea of what sort of filter and what frequencies are involved, also the permissible deviations from the ideal response. I'm looking for Ceramics, 0.01 through 1 microfarad. Inductors, 1 to 100 microhenry, about 0.5 amps. Derek.
Re: SV: Decoupling - capacitor values
Amund, You do not HAVE to be in a chamber to keep working on this. Since there is only one Vcc pin (which processor IS this? - be SURE there is only one Vcc pin; you may have an unfiltered, unconnected Vcc pin or two) you are limited in how many capacitors you can attach to it. This doesn't matter; if you filtered power, and got 7 dB, you've done there what CAN be done there and should look look at other things. Troubleshoot the board. I too have thrown solutions at problems without knowing what exactly was wrong. It takes too long and costs too much. Find the source. A small 'scope probe, with the end taped over, makes a serviceable E-field probe. And you can make a small (~5 mm) shielded loop out of subminiature coax by turning it back on itself. This will allow you to sweep the board for traces that have the most current at frequencies of concern. Once you know where they are, you will be able to deal with how it is coupling. I once used such a small loop to show where clock traces went -- through a nickel-paint shielded chassis. It surprised the folks I showed it to, and got the attention of the coating people as well. We'd been throwing solutions at the product for some time without effect. If a fix doesn't work, you did not put it where it COULD work. I've done this too many times to be proud of the horror stories, but I am alert to it now! Find the problem. Good luck! Cortland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: High Temp Caps and Inductors
I read in !emc-pstc that lfresea...@aol.com wrote (in d3.a31f9f9.29f1e...@aol.com) about 'High Temp Caps and Inductors', on Fri, 19 Apr 2002: Hi all, I'm designing a filter that has to live and work with an Ambient temp of 180 C. Does anyone have suggestions as to component vendors that I could contact for parts? It might be helpful to have an idea of what sort of filter and what frequencies are involved, also the permissible deviations from the ideal response. Otherwise, try hww.satan.com and Beelzebub Electronics Inc. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
High Temp Caps and Inductors
Hi all, I'm designing a filter that has to live and work with an Ambient temp of 180 C. Does anyone have suggestions as to component vendors that I could contact for parts? Thanks, Derek Walton. L F Research
Re: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Hi All, Just a word of caution about test equipment used to measure EUT performance, such as a LAN-analyzer or similar equipment that counts errors. My experience has been that some of this equipment is itself very susceptible to EMI. In a recent case, I had to move a bit-error tester to the other side of the lab on the end of a fiber in order for it not to register errors while testing the EUT. It was so sensitive that low levels of ESD in the room (not applied to the EUT), that did not affect the EUT itself, caused the test equipment to register many false positive error counts. On a similar point, on that same job, I found the lab scope (a modern 5 GSa/sec unit) was itself susceptible. One of my techniques to measure EMI induced noise on a board would not work because the scope displayed more noise with a closed 50 Ohm termination, instead of my measurement apparatus, on its input BNC than the noise I was trying to measure in the first place. Doug Gary McInturff wrote: Yup, when we do immunity testing - we see the occassional crc error or the ilk, but I've never seen a problem with the link. We use an Ixia box to cram data down the lines. There are probably many other traffic generators that will work just fine but none of them are pocket change. Gary -Original Message- From: Pommerenke, David [mailto:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:28 AM To: Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 What you should take into account is the failure criteria for 61000-4-6 as seen by the EU: No degradation beyond manufactueres specification. Depending on the EUT just a few additional bit-errors at any of the tested frequencies may be a fail. It may not be sufficient to just look at loss of link. In many cases, a low level LAN-analyzer is needed to do this test. Otherwise, effects of lessere severeness than loosing link will not be detected, although they may be a fail of the test. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:53 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 From David Sterner's message: Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. What! The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet. The last product that I took through the lab couldn't even take 3V...heck, the Ethernet cable couldn't even take 3V being put on some of the other cables in the chassis. Now, before everybody sends me design tips for Ethernet immunity...save your breath... the chassis was a purchased computer. It was EMC tested (with only a dummy ethernet cable and no traffic, mind you). And I have no design control of the ethernet circuit. We ended up using shielded Ethernet cables and invoking the 3meter rule. The point that I'm trying to make is...I'm glad that this test is trivial for your products. Obviously, you have a good design there(Where were you when we were looking for a compliant mainframe to use with our system?) But this type of immunity performance cannot be attributed to all Ethernet ports in general or to the Ethernet protocol in general. Best regards, Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard:
SV: Decoupling - capacitor values
We spend a few hours in an EMC lab today, trying to suppress the unwanted 162MHz signal. We had to suppress it approximate 5 dB. There existed 100nF caps on the Vcc pins but the caps lead was long. We went on decoupling (1nF and 100nF) with short leads (not OMF caps) on the uP Vcc pin and on other IC power pins. We reduced the 162MHz signal by 7 dB. Thereafter we went on trying to kill some loop areas, but we only won 1-2 dB. When we were kicked out, time was up We would like to check the use of ferrite beads on +5V trace and the tantalum capacitor during current switching, maybe next time. Thanks for ALL ideas on this subject. Amund, Oslo/Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]Pa vegne av Cortland Richmond Sendt: 19. april 2002 15:31 Til: richwo...@tycoint.com; ieee pstc list Emne: RE: Decoupling - capacitor values I have found removal of inductance at power pins often REDUCES emissions. When this is so, it is because designers who put it in did not insure there was sufficient local capacitance to hold up Vcc while the isolated device switches. This has happened to me often enough that when I see series inductance at a device power pin, I question the designer, and persuade him to add capacitance or remove the inductor (sometimes both - grin). Power filtering can be estimated based on data sheets and measurements on sketch boards. But designers need to do at LEAST that much, and they often do not. I consider this important enough that when I interview engineer candidates (that's when I am not one myself!) I ask them to show me how they will calculate the capacitance needed to support a digital device driving some number of loads. This is not rocket science, but many have not thought of it at all. Cortland Richmond --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Varistor to Ground
I read in !emc-pstc that Dan Kwok dk...@intetron.com wrote (in 3cc06a29.e6198...@intetron.com) about 'Varistor to Ground', on Fri, 19 Apr 2002: Is it generally permissible to put a varistor (MOV) across the 120 Vac line and ground for surge suppression/line conditioning products? I can see some potential safety implications here if the MOV shorts but I am interested in how this is addressed in the relevant safety standards. Some ban it already: others will in due course, AFAIK. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
ixia...they are a manufacturer of Ethernet traffic generator/monitors (http://www.ixiacom.com/) There are others like SmartBITS from Netcom/Spirent (http://www.netcomsystems.com/), etc. Regards, Steve -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 1:35 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Maybe there's the rub. We have usually tried to test a device to device link using a crossover cable. We haven't had to worry about small errors. I considered a link loss to be failure; and that's what I was seeing...a complete link loss. Perhaps using a bridge or other type of LAN driving device would make our Ethernet link seem more robust during the test. What do you mean by a lxia box? Chris -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [SMTP:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 1:18 PM To: Pommerenke, David; Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Yup, when we do immunity testing - we see the occassional crc error or the ilk, but I've never seen a problem with the link. We use an Ixia box to cram data down the lines. There are probably many other traffic generators that will work just fine but none of them are pocket change. Gary -Original Message- --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re:Varistor to Ground
Dan, This information was in a TUV Newsletter last year. Brian Transient Suppressors according to EN60950 CCA doc section 1.5 ACROSS THE MAINS Transient suppressors can be connected across the mains if it is separately approved to IEC 1051-1 and IEC 1051-2 (or CECC 42200). If it is not separately approved, then a short-circuit protective device (such as a fuse) is required. BETWEEN LINE AND GROUND (PE) It is NOT recommended that Transient suppressor are used between Line and Ground due to the many safety issue it generates: varistors has the tendency to generate excessive leakage current within a few years of use, and a varistor from line to ground will cause a false production High Pot test failure. Transient suppressors can only be connected from Line to Ground (Protective Earth) on pluggable equipment if a gas tube and fuse is in series with the varistor (transient suppressing device). To solve the High Pot problem, some companies install a special screw in the back on the unit that opens the ground connection to the transient suppressing device when the screw is removed. If this approach is taken, it must be well documented in the User's documentation. Surge Suppressors are allowed from line to ground on Permanently connected equipment. Reply Separator Subject:Varistor to Ground Author: dk...@intetron.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 4/19/02 3:28 PM Hi all, Is it generally permissible to put a varistor (MOV) across the 120 Vac line and ground for surge suppression/line conditioning products? I can see some potential safety implications here if the MOV shorts but I am interested in how this is addressed in the relevant safety standards. Dan Kwok Principal Engineer http://www.intetron.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Varistor to Ground
Dan, A good place to start would be CENELC's List of Decisions regarding EN60950 3rd Ed. (see attached). Pay particular attention to page 3. (See attached file: EN60950_3rd,CCA.pdf) Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com dk...@intetron.com Sent by: To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org owner-emc-pstc@majordomcc: o.ieee.org Subject: Varistor to Ground 04/19/02 12:04 PM Please respond to dkwok Hi all, Is it generally permissible to put a varistor (MOV) across the 120 Vac line and ground for surge suppression/line conditioning products? I can see some potential safety implications here if the MOV shorts but I am interested in how this is addressed in the relevant safety standards. Dan Kwok Principal Engineer http://www.intetron.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list EN60950_3rd,CCA.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document
Varistor to Ground
Hi all, Is it generally permissible to put a varistor (MOV) across the 120 Vac line and ground for surge suppression/line conditioning products? I can see some potential safety implications here if the MOV shorts but I am interested in how this is addressed in the relevant safety standards. Dan Kwok Principal Engineer http://www.intetron.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
EN55022:1998 and LAN Ports
I need to test a proprietary LAN port to the standard, and I have lot's of questions. The port connects to an unscreened and balanced cable. * What data speed LAN have you tested that uses unscreened and balanced cable? * Did you use alternative method 1 or 2? * If alternative 1, how did you demonstrate that the emission limits will not be exceeded for the type of LAN cable specified in the user documents? * For alternative 2, the standard references category 3 and 5 telecom cables. Do these cables apply to LANs? If so, can someone give me an idea of what consitutes a category 3 or 5 cable? * Were you able to use an ISN and obtain normal operation? * If you used an ISN, where did you obtain it? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Maybe there's the rub. We have usually tried to test a device to device link using a crossover cable. We haven't had to worry about small errors. I considered a link loss to be failure; and that's what I was seeing...a complete link loss. Perhaps using a bridge or other type of LAN driving device would make our Ethernet link seem more robust during the test. What do you mean by a lxia box? Chris -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [SMTP:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 1:18 PM To: Pommerenke, David; Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Yup, when we do immunity testing - we see the occassional crc error or the ilk, but I've never seen a problem with the link. We use an Ixia box to cram data down the lines. There are probably many other traffic generators that will work just fine but none of them are pocket change. Gary -Original Message- --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Yup, when we do immunity testing - we see the occassional crc error or the ilk, but I've never seen a problem with the link. We use an Ixia box to cram data down the lines. There are probably many other traffic generators that will work just fine but none of them are pocket change. Gary -Original Message- From: Pommerenke, David [mailto:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:28 AM To: Chris Maxwell; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 What you should take into account is the failure criteria for 61000-4-6 as seen by the EU: No degradation beyond manufactueres specification. Depending on the EUT just a few additional bit-errors at any of the tested frequencies may be a fail. It may not be sufficient to just look at loss of link. In many cases, a low level LAN-analyzer is needed to do this test. Otherwise, effects of lessere severeness than loosing link will not be detected, although they may be a fail of the test. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:53 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 From David Sterner's message: Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. What! The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet. The last product that I took through the lab couldn't even take 3V...heck, the Ethernet cable couldn't even take 3V being put on some of the other cables in the chassis. Now, before everybody sends me design tips for Ethernet immunity...save your breath... the chassis was a purchased computer. It was EMC tested (with only a dummy ethernet cable and no traffic, mind you). And I have no design control of the ethernet circuit. We ended up using shielded Ethernet cables and invoking the 3meter rule. The point that I'm trying to make is...I'm glad that this test is trivial for your products. Obviously, you have a good design there(Where were you when we were looking for a compliant mainframe to use with our system?) But this type of immunity performance cannot be attributed to all Ethernet ports in general or to the Ethernet protocol in general. Best regards, Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Ken, Does this mean your 10 and 100Base T is going through the network without being influenced by the network? Regards, Kris -Original Message- From: HALL,KEN (HP-Roseville,ex1) [mailto:ken_h...@hp.com] Sent: vrijdag 19 april 2002 16:45 To: 'david_ster...@ademco.com'; carpenti...@thmulti.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: 'sa...@fischercc.com' Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Hello, We have purchased CDN from Fischer Custom Communications. Regards, Ken Hall Hewlett Packard -Original Message- From: david_ster...@ademco.com [mailto:david_ster...@ademco.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:05 PM To: carpenti...@thmulti.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. Constructing a CDN that compliant to ANSI/IEEE 802.3/802.3u twisted pair transmission line definitions for 10BaseT and 100BaseTX is not trivial. When you play games with the transmission line the Ethernet/F-E link becomes 'cable-length sensitive', i.e. less S/N at certain cable lengths ... confounding the immunity test results. It is probably possible to design an Ethernet/F-E CDN, I would want correlation data before using it. EN55022:1998 RF-conducted emissions test methods for UTP Ethernet are controversial; I prefer to discuss them off-line. David Sterner ADEMCO, Syosset, NY -Original Message- From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:carpenti...@thmulti.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Hello group, IEC 61000-4-6 mentions a decision chart on the use of injection method: 1rst question of this chart: are suitable CDN's available? if YES: use CDN as per 6.2.2 if NO: use other means (e.g. EM Clamp) My question: 1. Are CDN's used for CE in EN55022 suitable CDN's for ethernet 10/100BaseT? (like ENY22 of RS) I might assume these CDN will at least attenuate the ethernet signal and thus make the signal more sensitive to the AM coupled signal 2. Assumed the CDN is suitable, is it allowed to use an alternative method like EM Clamp anyway? As usual, many thanks for your valuable responses Regards, Kris Carpentier --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Decoupling - capacitor values
Dear Bob Just a point - smaller is not always better. AVX and maybe some others make 0612 capacitors for decoupling. They are the same size as the normal 1206 size but are metallised along their long edges. This reduces their ESL considerably, to the extent that (according to manufacturer's data I have seen) their ESR performance can be better than the same value in an 0805 style, or even in an 0603. I haven't had the opportunity to try any 0612s out yet. Has anyone any real comparative data on these decaps? All the very best! Keith Armstrong Cherry Clough Consultants www.cherryclough.com In a message dated 18/04/02 00:11:45 GMT Daylight Time, bh...@ma.ultranet.com writes: Subj:RE: Decoupling - capacitor values Date:18/04/02 00:11:45 GMT Daylight Time From:A HREF=mailto:bh...@ma.ultranet.com;bh...@ma.ultranet.com/A To:A HREF=mailto:am...@westin-emission.no;am...@westin-emission.no/A, A HREF=mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org/A Sent from the Internet In selecting that 820 pF capacitor, check the specifications. The self-resonance frequency is a function of the capacitor value and the physical size. Chip caps that are smaller physically will have a have a self-resonant frequency higher than the same value cap with larger physical dimensions. Regards, Bob Howland dBH Consulting -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of am...@westin-emission.no Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 4:50 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Decoupling - capacitor values A microprocessor is driven by a 12MHz clock. The 5V Vcc-pin is decoupled by a 100nF capacitor with a few mm leads. We can observe an unwanted 156MHz signal on the 5V line, maybe 13th harmonic of 12MHz. We will try to suppress/decouple this 156MHz signal. Suggestion: Insert a SMD ceramic capacitor of value 820pF in parallel with the existing 100nF. The reason for the low value 820pF is because the capacitor self-resonance frequency is approximate 180MHz, and I believe it is important to choose a Cap value with a resonance frequency higher than the frequency we would like to decouple. Does it make sense? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway
Re: How to Minimize Global Approvals?
Hi Alex, A few comments on your summaries: My summarized Safety Requirements IEC 60950-1:2001 CB route (change to AS/NZS 60950) TS001 (Aus and NZ?) UL and or CSA application only, via the NRTL route using the CB report. NOM019 This seems to be in order, but you will find some difficulty in getting country-specific safety approvals based on IEC60950-1 at this time. For instance, the AS/NZS and UL versions have not been officially published yet. Also, please note that NOM-019 is a bit of a conglomeration and refers to standards IEC65:1985, IEC60950 2nd Ed. including A4, and UL478 4th Ed. according to clause 27. My summarized EMC Requirements EN55022 (use ANSI procedures for 120V and 230V, self declare CE, AS/NZS accept?) EN55024 EN61000-3-2 and -3 (No test, small power product, no SMPS, wouldn't fail, just self declare) The ACA in Australia has stated that it now recognizes CISPR22 reports if, and only if, the test was performed at 240V and at a NATA approved test lab. My summarized Analogue Modem Requirements TBR21 + EG 201 121 (Europe) FCC Pt 68 (Mexico and Canada acceptance?) TS002 (Australasia, no PTC 200?) For Canada, formal approval to Industry Canada's CS-03 is required. However, be advised of recently revised rules that will likely affect your product. Mexico also has their own formal, and a bit peculiar, telecom requirements. You will want to consult your importer for details. IHTH. Comments anyone? Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Obtaining Lab Accreditation
Hello, We have developed an online system to/that meets the 17025 requirements. If my boss wants to share he will get in touch. Regards, Ken Hall Hewlett Packard -Original Message- From: don_macart...@selinc.com [mailto:don_macart...@selinc.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:57 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Obtaining Lab Accreditation Hello Group, I have been tasked with obtaining A2LA accreditation for my internal (first party) lab. We have about ten technicians, perform all standard suite of IEC EMC tests along with vibration, shock, bump and environmental (cold, dry heat, damp heat) testing. I have attended ISO 17025 training but still have some questions. I'm wondering if there is anyone out there who has experience with ISO 17025 of ISO Guide 25 lab accreditation who can answer these questions: 1. Roughly how long did it take you to obtain the accreditation start to finish? I am thinking that it will take about one year. 2. Would you mind sharing the contents of your Quality Manual? 3. Is there a group or organization around that one could obtain example Quality Manuals from? 4. What were some of the benefits and reasons for obtaining lab accreditation? Was it worth while and why? Thanks for your input. Don -- This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
What you should take into account is the failure criteria for 61000-4-6 as seen by the EU: No degradation beyond manufactueres specification. Depending on the EUT just a few additional bit-errors at any of the tested frequencies may be a fail. It may not be sufficient to just look at loss of link. In many cases, a low level LAN-analyzer is needed to do this test. Otherwise, effects of lessere severeness than loosing link will not be detected, although they may be a fail of the test. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:53 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 From David Sterner's message: Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. What! The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet. The last product that I took through the lab couldn't even take 3V...heck, the Ethernet cable couldn't even take 3V being put on some of the other cables in the chassis. Now, before everybody sends me design tips for Ethernet immunity...save your breath... the chassis was a purchased computer. It was EMC tested (with only a dummy ethernet cable and no traffic, mind you). And I have no design control of the ethernet circuit. We ended up using shielded Ethernet cables and invoking the 3meter rule. The point that I'm trying to make is...I'm glad that this test is trivial for your products. Obviously, you have a good design there(Where were you when we were looking for a compliant mainframe to use with our system?) But this type of immunity performance cannot be attributed to all Ethernet ports in general or to the Ethernet protocol in general. Best regards, Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
Hello, We have purchased CDN from Fischer Custom Communications. Regards, Ken Hall Hewlett Packard -Original Message- From: david_ster...@ademco.com [mailto:david_ster...@ademco.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:05 PM To: carpenti...@thmulti.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. Constructing a CDN that compliant to ANSI/IEEE 802.3/802.3u twisted pair transmission line definitions for 10BaseT and 100BaseTX is not trivial. When you play games with the transmission line the Ethernet/F-E link becomes 'cable-length sensitive', i.e. less S/N at certain cable lengths ... confounding the immunity test results. It is probably possible to design an Ethernet/F-E CDN, I would want correlation data before using it. EN55022:1998 RF-conducted emissions test methods for UTP Ethernet are controversial; I prefer to discuss them off-line. David Sterner ADEMCO, Syosset, NY -Original Message- From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:carpenti...@thmulti.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100 Hello group, IEC 61000-4-6 mentions a decision chart on the use of injection method: 1rst question of this chart: are suitable CDN's available? if YES: use CDN as per 6.2.2 if NO: use other means (e.g. EM Clamp) My question: 1. Are CDN's used for CE in EN55022 suitable CDN's for ethernet 10/100BaseT? (like ENY22 of RS) I might assume these CDN will at least attenuate the ethernet signal and thus make the signal more sensitive to the AM coupled signal 2. Assumed the CDN is suitable, is it allowed to use an alternative method like EM Clamp anyway? As usual, many thanks for your valuable responses Regards, Kris Carpentier --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: 2.45 GHz filter
Hello, We use an RLC BRF-1047 (0210). RLC URL http://www.rlcelectronics.com/catalog.htm In looking at the RLC Filter order number identification what I have will not do the job but does. It was a special order. Regards, Ken Hall Hewlett-packard -Original Message- From: KC CHAN [PDD] [mailto:kcc...@hkpc.org] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 2:07 AM To: Subject: 2.45 GHz filter I am looking for a notch filter for microwave oven and bluetooth emission measurement. Any suggested suppliers for this. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: 2.45 GHz filter
Try Micro-Tronics in Sonora, CA. USA, (209) 532-1008. We just purchased a high pass filter for testing harmonics above 2.45 GHz. They were able to deliver in a couple of weeks and it cost us $345. Based upon what we learned from this group, we plan on using a 1/4 wave coax stub as our notch filter and expect it to provide about 10 dB of rejection at 2.45 GHz. That will be sufficent given the dynamic range of the receiver and ETSI spurious limits to which we have to measure. -Original Message- From: KC CHAN [PDD] [mailto:kcc...@hkpc.org] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 5:07 AM To: Subject: 2.45 GHz filter I am looking for a notch filter for microwave oven and bluetooth emission measurement. Any suggested suppliers for this. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Input voltage range - EN61000-4, 5 and 6
I support John's comments. I would also add that because the standards do not guarantee error-free or flawless performance, and that immunity is largely a performance issue, a manufacturer with concerns about the immunity performance of his product relative to input voltage may, and should, evaluate that product at various voltage levels to assure the quality of the product. That is the manufacturer's job, not the regulation's. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: John Woodgate[SMTP:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Reply To: John Woodgate Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:55 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Input voltage range - EN61000-4, 5 and 6 I read in !emc-pstc that brent.dew...@us.datex-ohmeda.com wrote (in ofcf872f20.b441e386-on87256b9f.006aa...@us.datex-ohmeda.com) about 'Input voltage range - EN61000-4, 5 and 6', on Thu, 18 Apr 2002: In the very specific case of Medical devices, the newest edition of IEC 60601-1-2 specifies -5 testing at the extreme ends the range of continuously adaptive supply and in each range of a switched range supply. That should be reserved for safety testing, for which it is justified. I think it's gilding the lily for EMC. We are measuring with great precision, using exhaustive (and exhausting!) test protocols, quantities that bear only a very approximate relation to the actual EMC performance in any given real-life condition. Thus, these costly measurements have to be accompanied by a disclaimer that they do not guarantee freedom from unacceptable interference and further measures may be required in some cases. AFAIK, apart from the 60601 case, for EMC testing the rated supply voltage (or one of them) is applied. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Decoupling - capacitor values
I have found removal of inductance at power pins often REDUCES emissions. When this is so, it is because designers who put it in did not insure there was sufficient local capacitance to hold up Vcc while the isolated device switches. This has happened to me often enough that when I see series inductance at a device power pin, I question the designer, and persuade him to add capacitance or remove the inductor (sometimes both - grin). Power filtering can be estimated based on data sheets and measurements on sketch boards. But designers need to do at LEAST that much, and they often do not. I consider this important enough that when I interview engineer candidates (that's when I am not one myself!) I ask them to show me how they will calculate the capacitance needed to support a digital device driving some number of loads. This is not rocket science, but many have not thought of it at all. Cortland Richmond --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Agency mark dims
We were told by TUV Rheinland that there isno minimal size required for their mark, but the information had to be readable. At 400 dpi resolution, we need a 6mm height to meet that requirement. I understand that UL and CSA do not have a minimal size requirement, but we are able to obtain readability at 5 mm. I have seen smaller on at least one product, but I needed a magnifier to read it. That did not make sense to me. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Agency mark dims Good People I have not been able to find any requirements on the TUV or UL websites for minimum size requirements of their respective logos (when used as a safety mark on the recognized/certified product). Could someone provide a pointer to (agency-published) guidance for logo dims? Thanks Much, Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: IATA 902 Magnetic Testing
Bud I routinely test all our products to the IATA requirements. There are no exemptions the regulations apply to all goods put onto an aircraft. In general I find products which have welded steel are going to produce a magnetic field. With the field most concentrated at the weld points. If it is a rack, it almost always needs to be labelled. Aluminium bodies and riveted construction tends not to be too magnetic and can often go unlabelled. Although on occasion have found fields coming from large sheets of rolled steel. Basically if the product has a lot of ferromagnetic material, it can become magnetised during construction. Also watch out for large coils and transformers, magnetising the surrounding materials. If you are having trouble locating information on IATA testing, I suggest you try the FAA. They enforce the IATA regs within US airspace. -Original Message- From: Pittman, Bud [mailto:bpitt...@lsil.com] Sent: Thu 18/04/2002 20:41 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: Subject: IATA 902 Magnetic Testing Although this is not an EMC standard it is related. My lab has been asked to test our products to the magnetic standards of IATA Packing Instruction 902. This test determines the ability of a device to change a compass reading. I have the regulations and know how to do the test, but do not do it routinely. Products that fail this test must be labeled and additional shipping charges are imposed. I know that one of our products fails and we are labeling it. Fines for non-compliance are substantial, yet I am having a hard time finding anyone who knows about or complies with this standard. My questions are: Does anyone else perform this test, or have it performed on their products? What kind of results are you getting depending upon product size, shape, metal content? Are there exceptions or conditions that would exclude product families from this regulation. Any help or discussion would be appreciated. Bud Pittman Compliance Engineer LSI Logic Storage Systems, Inc. - Wichita KS bud.pitt...@lsil.com Tel 316-636-8718 Fax 316-636-8321 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Suitable CDN for IEC61000-4-6 ethernet 10/100
From David Sterner's message: Most people use the EM clamp. We test to EN50130-4 alarm system limits: 10V, pulsed and AM modulated. The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet; be sure you understand the EUT and AE port partitioning algorithms. What! The test is trivial because of the inherent immunity of Ethernet. The last product that I took through the lab couldn't even take 3V...heck, the Ethernet cable couldn't even take 3V being put on some of the other cables in the chassis. Now, before everybody sends me design tips for Ethernet immunity...save your breath... the chassis was a purchased computer. It was EMC tested (with only a dummy ethernet cable and no traffic, mind you). And I have no design control of the ethernet circuit. We ended up using shielded Ethernet cables and invoking the 3meter rule. The point that I'm trying to make is...I'm glad that this test is trivial for your products. Obviously, you have a good design there(Where were you when we were looking for a compliant mainframe to use with our system?) But this type of immunity performance cannot be attributed to all Ethernet ports in general or to the Ethernet protocol in general. Best regards, Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
2.45 GHz filter
I am looking for a notch filter for microwave oven and bluetooth emission measurement. Any suggested suppliers for this. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Magnetic Testing
Hello, We use a Walker Scientific FGM - 3D1 Ken Hall -Original Message- From: Pittman, Bud [mailto:bpitt...@lsil.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:44 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Magnetic Testing Although this is not an EMC standard it is related. My lab has been asked to test our products to the magnetic standards of IATA Packing Instruction 902. This test determines the ability of a device to change a compass reading. I have the regulations and know how to do the test, but do not do it routinely. Products that fail this test must be labeled and additional shipping charges are imposed. I know that one of our products fails and we are labeling it. Fines for non-compliance are substantial, yet I am having a hard time finding anyone who knows about or complies with this standard. My questions are: Does anyone else perform this test, or have it performed on their products? What kind of results are you getting depending upon product size, shape, metal content? Are there exceptions or conditions that would exclude product families from this regulation. Any help or discussion would be appreciated. Bud Pittman Compliance Engineer LSI Logic Storage Systems, Inc. - Wichita KS bud.pitt...@lsil.com Tel 316-636-8718 Fax 316-636-8321
