RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Doug - This was not so uncommon a few years ago. For instance, a rack mount computer at one time could not be UL Listed and were only allowed to be UL Recognized Components, based on the uncertain use environment (elevated internal rack temperatures). At the same time, obtaining European certification meant the full gamut of requirements applied. I've heard tale that TUV-R refused to issue Bauart licenses for them. Circa 1992 or 3, UL decided this was too onerous on manufacturers and proposed allowing rack mounted computers to be Listed, provided they provide adequate instructions for installation and maximum rack ambients. Recognition is still an option and at the manufacturer's discretion. All sorts of other reasons can force a product towards Recognition, rather than Listing, most of which, I'm confident you can envision. Something incomplete in the evaluation or based on a construction feature. Among them, hard wired and without a fully compliant NEC compliant field wiring means of connection to the supply. Even if intended for an RAL, not meeting Code requirements can spell doom. (You didn't mention the intended supply wiring method.) Do the CofAs not contain anything unusual? Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com > -Original Message- > From: Doug McKean > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:44 AM > > In 20 years, I've never seen this before but > that's not saying much. > > Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for > a commercial > ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style > product but for > that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? > > Mfr is a stateside company. > > Product to be used in restricted areas with > trained personnel only. > But, one that essentially anyone could buy. > > What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set > of approvals? > I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. > > Maybe turning the question around for our > overseas friends - > why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get > UL recognition for an ITE computer product when > it's normal > to get a listing for such a product? > > Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Doug, UL Recognitiion vs TUV GS (Listing) can be because of many factors. Some are specified below: 1. UL interpertation of some requirements in the standard could have bee different than TUV's interpretation. 2. The product met all of the EN60950 requirements but lacked some of the US deviation requirements. 3. Inexperienced safety engineers. 4. My best guess is that UL Recognized the unit instead of Listing it because something to do with the fire enclosure - check if bottom openings meet the EN 60 950/UL60950 requirements. It may be that TUV GSsed the unit based that the safety instructions specify the unit is to be installed within a metal rack which has no openings on the bottom and UL was unable to accept this type of construction. Best Regards This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 http://www.itl.co.il http://www.i-spec.com -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:44 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal to get a listing for such a product? And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's some deviation within the testing as to cause the product to be GS accepted but not with a listing. Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Okay, to stir up a little more confusion. Eons ago, the GS mark could not be issued unless some very ugly ergonomics standards were met. ZH/618 or something, along with the safety requirements for an end use product. But if you had an end use product that didn't meet the ergonomics requirements - maybe the color contrast between the enclosure and the product name was too great - but it met the safety standard of the time you could get a Bauart mark. That was around 1975 or so. Other than that, I believe that Bauart is component and GS is end product. I have some laser transceivers on my desk that carry the Bauart mark at the moment. Keyboards are a nice little hole in the process. The enclosure material is based on whether or not it has to be a fire enclosure or not. That determination was based on the maximum current coming into the keyboard. There was a time when keyboards had the fuse and could be Listed, it didn't matter which computer you used because the keyboard had the current limiting device. Well, a fuse cost money and so does fire suppressants in plastics, and keyboards are being sold for $3.00 or so these days so cost reduction is a huge issue. Cost reduction left the fuse out and dropped the plastic enclosure to HB from V1 or V0. They computer guys were thinking about the keyboard changing weren't putting any limiting on the motherboard, that saved them a few beer tokens as well. So the keyboard is pretty much swinging in space as fare as a fire enclosure goes. Theoretically, the keyboard should have to be recognized and as a condition of acceptability would say that it must be used on a limited power circuit or whatever. How does one control that in the replacement Radio Shack type markets? A listed keyboard would have all the protection necessary and could work with fuse and no fused computer outputs. Mice out to be the same situation. I suspect the problem is known and a blind eye turned that direction. Gary -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:46 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... In a message dated 10/9/02 3:22:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, john_t...@bose.com writes: Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was employed at TUV, this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only for finished ready to use products which do not require any special installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to make them compliant with the standards. I agree - you're right, John. I think my error lies in the fact that I have seen GS Marks on things that many certifiers would consider to be components. But the GS Mark itself is intended to be an end product mark.Sorry if I got anyone else caught up in my own confusion. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
I read in !emc-pstc that John Shinn wrote (in <008b01c26fd7$4f20da00$af8c1...@hadco.comsanmina.com>) about 'Question regarding something slightly unusual ...' on Wed, 9 Oct 2002: >David, You are right. I have a mouse that has a UL recognized >mark, a GS mark, a CE mark, >a NOM, a VCCI, a Tic mark, and more. And it still does not work >well. Threaten it with an approved Persian cat. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in <846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A0467583F@flbocexu05>) about 'Question regarding something slightly unusual ...' on Wed, 9 Oct 2002: > But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. > The mouse probably does not comply with the German requirements, either, because it prefers cheese to bacon. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
David, You are right. I have a mouse that has a UL recognized mark, a GS mark, a CE mark, a NOM, a VCCI, a Tic mark, and more. And it still does not work well. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Clement Dave-LDC009 Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:22 PM To: 'richwo...@tycoint.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well I have a mouse with a UL listing mark & a GS mark and a keyboard with a Recognized component mark & a GS mark. So you are correct in that it does not work well. About 10 years ago the UL office we dealt with would not list and product that was rack mountable even though as an individual item it met all the requirements. We would have UL recognition, CSA certifcation as product and a GS mark. This has since changed. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
While a mouse cannot function by itself, as it needs to be connected to something, it is a complete product in the sense that it should comply with the Safety and EMC standards and does not require any special safety related install or usage instructions. It therefore is able to bear the GS Mark...This is similar to a mains connected printer or monitor which cannot function until connected to a driver device but may be compliant with the LVD and EMC Directives and specified standards and therefore is eligible for a GS MarkAgain I am going back to my TUV days with this so things could have changed in the last two years.I am new to the UL process but sounds like has a different slant when it comes to what is considered a finished product and what is a component. -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com> http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ <http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/> -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... >From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
In a message dated 10/9/02 3:22:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, john_t...@bose.com writes: > Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was > employed at TUV, this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only > for finished ready to use products which do not require any special > installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for > incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to > make them compliant with the standards. I agree - you're right, John. I think my error lies in the fact that I have seen GS Marks on things that many certifiers would consider to be components. But the GS Mark itself is intended to be an end product mark.Sorry if I got anyone else caught up in my own confusion. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Well I have a mouse with a UL listing mark & a GS mark and a keyboard with a Recognized component mark & a GS mark. So you are correct in that it does not work well. About 10 years ago the UL office we dealt with would not list and product that was rack mountable even though as an individual item it met all the requirements. We would have UL recognition, CSA certifcation as product and a GS mark. This has since changed. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com> http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ <http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/> -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com> http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ <http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/> -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... >From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Greg Galluccio wrote: >> The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was employed at TUV, this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only for finished ready to use products which do not require any special installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to make them compliant with the standards. For components TUV would issue the "Bauart Mark" which is their equivalent to the UL recognition mark.A Bauart Mark usually contains conditions of acceptability such as special installation considerations while it was not allowed to have conditions of acceptability on a GS License. If I remember correctly Bauart Mark and is not regulated by the German Government as the GS Mark is -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... >From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
The most likely reason I can think of is that some companies "demand" either a UL or TUV mark specifically hence the dual marking. I knew of one company that would accept a test report only from a specific laboratory. Both UL and TUV are NRTLs. It is also possible that TUV met some specific European credibility in a specific place. I also believe, but am not entirely sure, that products for use in restricted locations is a UL workaround not generally compliant with EN Standards and not generally available for CE Marked products. Other than the differences between listings and R/C status and compliance variations thereto, it is strange. However, a company CAN obtain both a listing and a recognized component on the same product to suit their own purposes. Comments? Warren Birmingham On Wednesday, Oct 9, 2002, at 09:42 US/Pacific, soundsu...@aol.com wrote: From Doug McKean: In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com> http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ <http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/> -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... >From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Great apologies with the dyslexia here. Yes, the input is 115-230vac range. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
To make things simpler, it could be a stand alone workstation with Recognition approval here in the States and with a GS approval for Europe. I don't want to mention any names but certainly there are well known personal computer mfrs here in the states which routinely get listings on their product with a "representative" sample without using every single permutation of every single interface card sold out there. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Doug - Dual listing is simple economics assuming you meant '115 V' by your '155 V': Multiple approvals let you sell slow-moving US inventory overseas simply by switching the linecord (if you supply multilingual I-I's). In the same manner, slow-moving international inventory can be sold here. Without dual listing, post-manufacture 'conversion' (U.S. - international) is impractical; you would have to break it down and rebuild it. Another advantage is inventory simplification (reduces SKU's). David -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:44 AM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal to get a listing for such a product? And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's some deviation within the testing as to cause the product to be GS accepted but not with a listing. Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Sounds interesting. Typically, the UL recognition mark is used for components. >From UL's web site: "These are marks consumers rarely see because they are specifically used on component parts that are part of a larger product or system. These components may have restrictions on their performance or may be incomplete in construction. The Component Recognition marking is found on a wide range of products, including some switches, power supplies, printed wiring boards, some kinds of industrial control equipment and thousands of other products." If the product can be used standalone - with a mouse, keyboard and monitor, then I would've expected to see a listing mark. However, recognition can be applied to "some kinds of industrial control equipment" -perhaps in installations where such product is a 'component' of a larger system. But then you could also have UL evaluate the product as a 'listed accessory'. Perhaps the wrong mark was used on the label? But that would be picked-up during Follow-Up Services inspection . . . if the product was put through UL. A more established manufacturer would more likely to have had the product evaluated properly and the right mark applied. I would be more concerned if the manufacturer was 'more recently established' less aware, or more cavalier regarding product safety. John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:44 AM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal to get a listing for such a product? And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's some deviation within the testing as to cause the product to be GS accepted but not with a listing. Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
Hi Doug, I have seen this recently on another cord connected power supply, like you use on a laptop, and I wondered about that too. I am speculating, but it may be that the product was approved before TUV had NRTL status i North America, thus an approval by an OSHA/SCC accredited third party was required to sell it in North America. It could also be that it was done for marketing reasons, in which case we know there is absolutely no logical reason why. Regards Doug "Doug McKean" @majordomo.ieee.org on 10/09/2002 11:43:44 AM Please respond to "Doug McKean" Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: "EMC-PSTC Discussion Group" cc: Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal to get a listing for such a product? And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's some deviation within the testing as to cause the product to be GS accepted but not with a listing. Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com> http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ <http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/> -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... >From Doug McKean: >>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? <<<<<<<<<<<< It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
>From Doug McKean: In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal to get a listing for such a product? And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's some deviation within the testing as to cause the product to be GS accepted but not with a listing. Regards, Doug (scratching head...) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"