Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gregg Eshelman 
On 3/11/2014 11:26 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 11 March 2014 13:25:43 John Kasunich did opine:
>
>> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
>
> Chuckle.  But how old is that?  we must have at least 20 by now.

A perfect example is the USB "standard". It began with exactly two and 
only two types of connector, A for hosts and B for devices.

Then came Mini B and for some reason early digital cameras all had to 
have various odd USB connectors, often including A/V out. In 2007 Micro 
B was introduced and it took stores nearly two years to realize it 
existed and stock cables with that connector.

There's also a few versions of powered USB which are double stacked 
connectors having one part of the ports and plugs just for extra power.

Now there's USB 3.0. The designers of it had an uncommon fit of sanity 
and made both ends of the standard backwards sympatico with ye olde full 
size original Type A USB for the host and Micro B for the device. The 
USB 3.0 device end looks funkyweird but just plug a 2.0 cord into one 
end of the 3.0 socket. But wait! USB 3.0 gets even more sanity! A USB 
3.0 host plug will fit into a USB 1.1/2.0 Type A port and the device 
will operate at the lower speed.


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Re: [Emc-users] ADNS-9800 optical sensor

2014-03-11 Thread Joseph Chiu 
That's a nice item since it comes with the lens.  I started down the path
of making a paper flow detector using one of the ADNS sensors many years
ago, but got hung up on being able to get a suitable lens for the
particular application.  Just make sure that the lens works in the geometry
you have planned!


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Ralph Stirling <
ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu> wrote:

> I'm interested in using an optical mouse sensor in a position
> feedback application.  Older sensor designs often had quadrature
> A/B signals, but the newer sensors like the ADNS-9800 have an
> SPI interface.  I have found a place that seems to have one
> of these devices for sale, mounted to a circuit board.
>
>
> https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/adns-9800-optical-laser-sensor/
>
> My question (probably answerable by PCW), is whether the SPI
> firmware component of the 7I43 (or other Mesa cards) can be used
> to read one of these, without a lot of custom vhdl (which I don't have
> time for at the moment).  I'd like the 7I43 to interrogate the ADNS-9800
> about position change every servo period.
>
> Anybody tried something like this?
>
> Thanks,
> -- Ralph
>
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Growing old [Was: Re: Need longer belt]

2014-03-11 Thread Gregg Eshelman 
On 3/11/2014 10:27 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> But, there are also arterial plaques in the aorta an inch away that do not
> want to be disturbed for obvious reasons.

Start popping Coenzyme Q10 aka CoQ10, Qunol brand. My 75 year old father 
takes that and it's helped a lot, especially after a triple bypass and a 
stent. Docs said his arteries are good but were undersized and rather 
twisty in his heart.

Some people cannot take statins at all. Look up statin myopathy. Causes 
nerve and muscle damage.

One side effect/symptom of statin intolerance can be constipation and 
very stinky farts. They'll also give some people cancer. One of my aunts 
got intestinal cancer from Lipitor, had a couple of feet of guts removed 
and she was lucky the football sized tumor had only surrounded but not 
invaded her descending aorta. They gave her 20 units of blood during the 
operation. Been cancer free for some years now.

Creatine monohydrate, a common muscle builder used by body builders, in 
significantly lower doses than they use, will help repair damage in most 
muscle tissue, including the heart. Follow the same on and off schedule 
as when used for bodybuilding, don't take the creatine continuously. 
Don't bother with types other than the monohydrate, they're less 
effective because they break down and excrete faster.

Creatine is one of the beneficial and vital chemical compounds in red 
meat, so are the B vitamins humans' omnivore biochemistry cannot produce.

What set me firmly against a vegetarian or vegan diet was an article I 
read in a medical journal about a doctor (who should have known better, 
must have failed biochem!) who was a strict vegan and suddenly started 
having symptoms of early onset dementia. Fortunately there was a fresh 
out of school doctor who recognized the symptoms of B vitamin deficiency 
(apparently remembered his biochem classes) and gave him a big B-complex 
shot. Unfortunately for the vegan doc, his "healthy" diet gave him some 
permanent brain damage and he was unable to continue medical practice. 
The experienced doctors never thought to check for vitamin deficiencies, 
even after learning the patient was eating a strict vegan diet, because 
in the USA they never see such things since so much food is processed 
and spiked with vitamins.

A truly healthy diet is one that matches our chemistry and physiology. 
IMHO, any parent feeding their kids a vegan or vegetarian diet should be 
charged with child abuse, even if they're also giving them vitamin 
supplements.

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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Charles Steinkuehler 
On 3/11/2014 10:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/11/2014 07:57 PM, Charles Steinkuehler wrote:
>> On 3/11/2014 7:23 PM, Jeff wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>Got it!  Thanks.  It is now at 990.68 MIPS with the newer kernel.
>>>
>>>
> So, what is going on with the older machinekit installs?  Do 
> they actually not
> run the CPU at rated speed?  I did notice that some things, 
> like generating
> an initial SSH key took a VERY long time, and when I did 
> "more /proc/cpuinfo"
> it showed a very low clock speed, like 200 MHz, but I wasn't 
> sure I could
> trust that number.

CPU frequency scaling was disabled in the kernel configuration as
recommended by the Xenomai folks.  The problem is, that leaves the CPU
frequency set by the boot loader with no way to change it.  Different
versions of the boot loader run the CPU at different frequencies.  My
boards would typically run at 500 or 750 MHz, but some run as slow as
350 MHz or so.

I have since added back the frequency scaling support, but only compiled
in the "performance" profile, so the CPU runs as fast as possible and
stays there.  The extra latency is caused by the CPU switching operating
frequencies (which shuts *EVERYTHING* down for a few hundred uS or more
while internal PLLs stabilize to their new frequencies), so this isn't
an issue if you don't actually change operating frequencies on the fly.

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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Jon Elson 
On 03/11/2014 07:57 PM, Charles Steinkuehler wrote:
> On 3/11/2014 7:23 PM, Jeff wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>Got it!  Thanks.  It is now at 990.68 MIPS with the newer kernel.
>>
>>
So, what is going on with the older machinekit installs?  Do 
they actually not
run the CPU at rated speed?  I did notice that some things, 
like generating
an initial SSH key took a VERY long time, and when I did 
"more /proc/cpuinfo"
it showed a very low clock speed, like 200 MHz, but I wasn't 
sure I could
trust that number.

Thanks,

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] ADNS-9800 optical sensor

2014-03-11 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Wed, 12 Mar 2014, Ralph Stirling wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 02:27:01 +
> From: Ralph Stirling 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net" 
> Subject: [Emc-users] ADNS-9800 optical sensor
> 
> I'm interested in using an optical mouse sensor in a position
> feedback application.  Older sensor designs often had quadrature
> A/B signals, but the newer sensors like the ADNS-9800 have an
> SPI interface.  I have found a place that seems to have one
> of these devices for sale, mounted to a circuit board.
>
> https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/adns-9800-optical-laser-sensor/
>
> My question (probably answerable by PCW), is whether the SPI
> firmware component of the 7I43 (or other Mesa cards) can be used
> to read one of these, without a lot of custom vhdl (which I don't have
> time for at the moment).  I'd like the 7I43 to interrogate the ADNS-9800
> about position change every servo period.
>
> Anybody tried something like this?
>
> Thanks,
> -- Ralph


There are 2 SPI interface firmware modules, the buffered SPI interface and the 
simple SPI interface, For your application, I would be tempted to use the 
simple SPI interface and talk to its registers directly with a comp


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[Emc-users] ADNS-9800 optical sensor

2014-03-11 Thread Ralph Stirling 
I'm interested in using an optical mouse sensor in a position
feedback application.  Older sensor designs often had quadrature
A/B signals, but the newer sensors like the ADNS-9800 have an
SPI interface.  I have found a place that seems to have one
of these devices for sale, mounted to a circuit board.

https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/adns-9800-optical-laser-sensor/

My question (probably answerable by PCW), is whether the SPI
firmware component of the 7I43 (or other Mesa cards) can be used
to read one of these, without a lot of custom vhdl (which I don't have
time for at the moment).  I'd like the 7I43 to interrogate the ADNS-9800
about position change every servo period.

Anybody tried something like this?

Thanks,
-- Ralph
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 18:47:15 andy pugh did opine:

> On 11 March 2014 18:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > So in the long view, I may as well give sdp-sc a call & confirm the
> > ugly details & give them a card number.
> 
> Why not buy pilot-bore pulleys and modify to suit?
> It would be easier with a working lathe, though not _that_ much easier
> as the pulleys with flanges are quite hard to hold.
> 
> Clamp down the pulley to the milling table, pick up the centre with a
> coaxial indicator, bore to size with a boring head, mill a keyway.
> 
> You can buy the co-ax indicator and the boring head and still be ahead
> of the game.

Thats a good possibility too, as the mill is working.  They also has a 
bastard buttress thread based taperlock work alike that I might be able to 
use.  Properly snugged up to 1/8 turn from broke, I would not need any 
keyways either.  I'll dig into that case later tonight too.  IIRC I looked 
but no 9mm hubs in that style so I backed out.  But they also need more 
free shaft length that I have too from the pix.  The 10mm hub for the upper 
one has about 11.5mm of available shaft, but that hub needs 15 or more 
IIRC.

The lower, flanged pulleys problem is its a 9mm shaft. To use one of those 
assemblies I'd first have to make a 1/2mm thick spacer tube.  Or, I have 
more tool steel shafting, and that shaft nose could grow to 12mm without an 
huge amount of trouble once I make this work temporarily.

I did get it to track decent today, but its still too high, so I'll put a 
foam weather strip in to hold it up for clearance, need about 1/8".  
Redrilling the screw holes isn't a problem.  But I didn't get quite that 
far before I ran out of me today as I was thinking and running a hand 
backhoe too, trying to fill in the gas line ditch in the back yard that 
leads to the standby generator. Should have done more of it yesterday when 
this stuff we mistakenly call dirt was a bit softer.  By tomorrow it will 
be as hard as granite.  Yellow clay, grows weeds & nut rock real well but 
nothing edible. :(

Cheers, Gene
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Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Jeff 
Hi,

  Got it!  Thanks.  It is now at 990.68 MIPS with the newer kernel.

  If anyone else gives this a try, for some reason I had to un tar the dtbs 
file with a suffix

tar -xzvf  --no-same-owner

without the --no-same-owner I was getting 'ownership' errors.

Jeff


  

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:32:43 -0500
From: char...@steinkuehler.net
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup


On 3/11/2014 1:08 PM, Jeff wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   Is there a set of instructions on how to upgrade?
>
>   The MachineKit I have does show 363.67 MIPS with a cat /proc/cpuinfo
>
>   I tried the instructions here:
>
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages
>
>   and got stuck.  Apparently I'm not setting CODENAME properly (or 
> something).  I've never upgraded a kernel before so am pretty lost.

Those instructions are for an x86 PC, not a BeagleBone.

I always just upgrade the kernel by hand.  Use wget and download the
appropriate kernel files:

http://www.machinekit.net/deb/wheezy-armhf/v3.8.13xenomai-bone41/

Grab all four files that start with 3.8.13xenomai*

Copy the *.zImage file to /boot/uboot/zImage

cd to / (the root directory) and extract the *modules.tar.gz file

cd to /lib/firmware and extract the *.firmware.tar.gz file

cd to /boot/uboot/dtbs and extract the *dtbs.tar.gz file

Reboot, and verify you're running the new kernel (uname -a) and the CPU
speed is 1 GHz (cat /proc/cpuinfo).

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[Emc-users] Noob advice

2014-03-11 Thread DeeEmm 
Hi all.

I have been putting together a CNC over the past months or so and am just about 
to get into the nitty gritty of getting the control system put together.

Being familiar with Linux and Ubuntu I'm very keen to use LinuxCNC as the 
control system and am now looking into what I need to do to get it running for 
my setup. The machine will be a combined plasma / 2.5D router setup and so will 
likely need to swap between two different configurations to suit each different 
use. 

The machine is home brewed and of a simple construction built from parts from 
my scrap pile and using belt drive and stepper motors for long and short travel 
and a lead screw for z height. The steppers are controlled from a parallel 
break out board running through stepper drivers. I currently do not have THC 
and do not plan to add it at this stage as I am hoping that it is unnecessary 
for the work that I will use it for (generally 1mm - 6 mm sheet / plate). I 
will be using (or attempting to use) a dremel style spindle for routing but 
also have an actual router if that is not up to the job. I may even take the 
plunge and buy a proper spindle motor down the track.

For anyone interested here's my build thread for the machine - 
http://www.fabribles.com/forum/build-threads/96-deeemms-cnc-plasma-router 

...there's a photo album of the build - 
http://www.fabribles.com/community/photos/deeemm/album?albumid=16

At the moment I'm trying to get my head around the workflow for using the 
machine in dual configuration and am very interested to know what others have 
used for CAM solutions - specifically in regards to plasma. CAD / 3D modelling 
is not a problem for me but the CAM stage is not something that I am familiar 
with apart from within 3D printing. I understand the process, but the variety 
of different solutions and their suitability to plasma / dual use is what I am 
trying to get my head around.

So far Sheetcam looks to be very promising as it seems equally suitable for 
both routing and plasma. CamBam also looks to be quite good but it does not 
really seem to support plasma. What I would really like to know is for those of 
you that have a similar setup (dual plasma / router) what do you use? and why? 
I am also interested to know what those of you who have a straight plasma setup 
use as well. I am also open to the possibility that I may end up using a 
different solution for each machine configuration.

I'm sure that this is not an uncommon question, so if there is a noob guide 
that I have overlooked please feel free to direct me to it.

Thanks in advance.

Regards
Michael Percy

AKA DeeEmm
dee...@deeemm.com

DeeEmm
PO Box 2105. Hilton Plaza. Mile End. South Australia. 5033.
http://deeemm.com




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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Charles Steinkuehler 
On 3/11/2014 7:23 PM, Jeff wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>   Got it!  Thanks.  It is now at 990.68 MIPS with the newer kernel.
> 
>   If anyone else gives this a try, for some reason I had to un tar the dtbs 
> file with a suffix
> 
> tar -xzvf  --no-same-owner
> 
> without the --no-same-owner I was getting 'ownership' errors.

Those are safe to ignore.  Basically it's complaining about not being
able to set unix file permissions on a FAT filesystem, which is a known
issue.  :)

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Re: [Emc-users] Noob advice

2014-03-11 Thread andy pugh 
On 12 March 2014 00:01, DeeEmm  wrote:

> At the moment I'm trying to get my head around the workflow for using the 
> machine in dual configuration

You probably just want to create two different configs in Stepconf and
start whichever is most suitable for the job at hand.

> So far Sheetcam looks to be very promising as it seems equally suitable for 
> both routing and plasma. CamBam also looks to be quite good but it does not 
> really seem to support plasma.

I would probably be looking to use SheetCAM for plasma and CamBam for
routing. Both have a Linux variant. I am not entirely clear on whether
the Linux variant of either is meant to be commercial or not.

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Re: [Emc-users] BBB and LCD 7"

2014-03-11 Thread Charles Buckley 
I am using a lilliput 7 inch, but that is on x86. Not sure about the touch
drivers on BBB.

I tried modifying gaxis for gscreen, but it was hit or miss in terms of
functionality. It would drop into a weird state where it would not home
because it thought it was homing an axis.



On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Condit Alan  wrote:

> I had a 7" LCD cape on order from Mouser for several months and finally
> gave up and cancelled the order.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a good 7" LCD touch screen to use
> with the BBB and LinuxCNC?
>
> Alan
>
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Re: [Emc-users] BBB and LCD 7"

2014-03-11 Thread Charles Steinkuehler 
On 3/11/2014 3:35 PM, Condit Alan wrote:
> I had a 7” LCD cape on order from Mouser for several months and
> finally gave up and cancelled the order.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a good 7” LCD touch screen to
> use with the BBB and LinuxCNC?

I have a couple of the inexpensive HDMI input panels from eBay.  You can
get a variety of sizes and resolutions, with or without a resistive
touch or capacitive multi-touch interface.  I personally like the
readability of a 7" 800x480 display, but this is slightly too small for
Axis and the other UI options I've tried (although it seems like it
should be more than enough screen real estate).  If you get a 7" screen
with more pixels, you can see the whole interface, but text becomes very
difficult to read.

For development work, I've switched to using old 17" DVI 1280x1024
monitors, which are big enough for me too see, with enough pixels to
play with the various GUI options.  The 7" screens are cute, but
probably not real practical with LinuxCNC unless you're making your own GUI.

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[Emc-users] BBB and LCD 7"

2014-03-11 Thread Condit Alan 
I had a 7” LCD cape on order from Mouser for several months and finally gave up 
and cancelled the order.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good 7” LCD touch screen to use with the 
BBB and LinuxCNC?

Alan
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread andy pugh 
On 11 March 2014 18:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> So in the long view, I may as well give sdp-sc a call & confirm the ugly
> details & give them a card number.

Why not buy pilot-bore pulleys and modify to suit?
It would be easier with a working lathe, though not _that_ much easier
as the pulleys with flanges are quite hard to hold.

Clamp down the pulley to the milling table, pick up the centre with a
coaxial indicator, bore to size with a boring head, mill a keyway.

You can buy the co-ax indicator and the boring head and still be ahead
of the game.


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread andy pugh 
On 11 March 2014 17:46, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>> I took an entirely diffferent approach on my 9x40:
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ilc3m7J-FIGIoLXQTOYqcdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
> That didn't seem to be the right pix Andy. ?

It's the right picture. I dispensed with the entire OE drivetrain.

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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Charles Steinkuehler 
On 3/11/2014 1:08 PM, Jeff wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>   Is there a set of instructions on how to upgrade?  
>
>   The MachineKit I have does show 363.67 MIPS with a cat /proc/cpuinfo
> 
>   I tried the instructions here:
> 
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages
> 
>   and got stuck.  Apparently I'm not setting CODENAME properly (or 
> something).  I've never upgraded a kernel before so am pretty lost.

Those instructions are for an x86 PC, not a BeagleBone.

I always just upgrade the kernel by hand.  Use wget and download the
appropriate kernel files:

http://www.machinekit.net/deb/wheezy-armhf/v3.8.13xenomai-bone41/

Grab all four files that start with 3.8.13xenomai*

Copy the *.zImage file to /boot/uboot/zImage

cd to / (the root directory) and extract the *modules.tar.gz file

cd to /lib/firmware and extract the *.firmware.tar.gz file

cd to /boot/uboot/dtbs and extract the *dtbs.tar.gz file

Reboot, and verify you're running the new kernel (uname -a) and the CPU
speed is 1 GHz (cat /proc/cpuinfo).

-- 
Charles Steinkuehler
char...@steinkuehler.net



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Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup

2014-03-11 Thread Jeff 
Hi,

  Is there a set of instructions on how to upgrade?  
   
  The MachineKit I have does show 363.67 MIPS with a cat /proc/cpuinfo

  I tried the instructions here:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages

  and got stuck.  Apparently I'm not setting CODENAME properly (or something).  
I've never upgraded a kernel before so am pretty lost.

Thanks,

Jeff


Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:42 -0500
From: char...@steinkuehler.net
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Beagle Board Black startup


On 3/10/2014 10:30 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>
> I'm trying to start up a BBB with Charles' uSD image.
>
> I don't have a micro HDMI cable yet, but one is on the way.
>
> I believe that DHCP is enabled by default?
>
> If that is the case I should be able to SSH to it immediately after it
> boots, is that correct?

Yes, DHCP is enabled by default, as is SSH.  The first boot takes a
while since it's generating new ssh keys, but you should be able to
login remotely once it comes up.

> I can't see its address as it logs into my router, but the router I am
> using doesn't always accurate report the connections.

nmap -sP 

:)

Once you get into the system, you might want to verify the kernel
version.  You might need to upgrade, there was a problem for a while
with the kernel not running at full speed (cat /proc/cpuinfo to check
the CPU speed).  If you're not running close to 1 GHz, grab the -bone39
or -bone41 kernel from:

http://www.machinekit.net/deb/wheezy-armhf/

--
Charles Steinkuehler
char...@steinkuehler.net


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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 14:05:05 John Kasunich did opine:

> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 03/11/2014 08:27 AM, John Kasunich wrote:
> > > OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me
> > > mystified, because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a
> > > fair bit if tooth- belt research for different projects.)
> > 
> > Well, 5 mm is ~ .197", so maybe accounting for the pitch
> > diameter to be
> > larger than the pulley OD, that could match up.  these
> > numbers are only
> > about 6% different.  So, it certainly could be a perfect 5
> > mm PD at
> > the actual diameter where it is supposed to be measured.
> 
> Nope.  The math I did took that into account.
> 
> The distance from pulley OD up to pitch diameter is a
> characteristic of the belt, so it is the same for both
> pulleys.  The unknowns are pitch and "difference
> between OD and PD".  The knowns are tooth count
> and OD for two different size pulleys.  The result is
> two equations with two unknowns, and is solvable.
> 
> The pitch would have to be within a couple thou of
> 0.1855".  No way could it be 5mm.

So in the long view, I may as well give sdp-sc a call & confirm the ugly 
details & give them a card number.  Whatever I'll manage to make work today 
is a short term solution only.  Thank you John.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread John Kasunich 


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/11/2014 08:27 AM, John Kasunich wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me mystified,
> > because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a fair bit if tooth-
> > belt research for different projects.)
> >
> >
> Well, 5 mm is ~ .197", so maybe accounting for the pitch 
> diameter to be
> larger than the pulley OD, that could match up.  these 
> numbers are only
> about 6% different.  So, it certainly could be a perfect 5 
> mm PD at
> the actual diameter where it is supposed to be measured.  

Nope.  The math I did took that into account.

The distance from pulley OD up to pitch diameter is a
characteristic of the belt, so it is the same for both 
pulleys.  The unknowns are pitch and "difference
between OD and PD".  The knowns are tooth count
and OD for two different size pulleys.  The result is
two equations with two unknowns, and is solvable.

The pitch would have to be within a couple thou of
0.1855".  No way could it be 5mm.


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 13:45:31 andy pugh did opine:

> On 11 March 2014 17:17, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > >From SPI-SC, about $175 a set in metal & what I assume is kevlar belt
> > 
> > backing.  In XL format. The bores are a hair odd, and it would be the
> > first time they ever broached a 4mm key in a 10mm bore for the top
> > pulley.
> 
> No need to broach it. Who cares if your keyway has a round top? Just
> mill it. You can always file a radius on the top of the key if you want
> to.
> 
> I took an entirely diffferent approach on my 9x40:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ilc3m7J-FIGIoLXQTOYqcdMTjNZETYmyPJ
> y0liipFm0?feat=directlink

That didn't seem to be the right pix Andy. ?

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread andy pugh 
On 11 March 2014 17:17, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >From SPI-SC, about $175 a set in metal & what I assume is kevlar belt
> backing.  In XL format. The bores are a hair odd, and it would be the first
> time they ever broached a 4mm key in a 10mm bore for the top pulley.

No need to broach it. Who cares if your keyway has a round top? Just mill it.
You can always file a radius on the top of the key if you want to.

I took an entirely diffferent approach on my 9x40:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ilc3m7J-FIGIoLXQTOYqcdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 13:28:53 Jon Elson did opine:

> On 03/11/2014 08:27 AM, John Kasunich wrote:
> > OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me
> > mystified, because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a
> > fair bit if tooth- belt research for different projects.)
> 
> Well, 5 mm is ~ .197", so maybe accounting for the pitch
> diameter to be
> larger than the pulley OD, that could match up.  these
> numbers are only
> about 6% different.  So, it certainly could be a perfect 5
> mm PD at
> the actual diameter where it is supposed to be measured.
> With that
> in hand, Gene could probably use one of those on-line belt
> length
> calculator programs to figure the correct belt length for
> the distance
> between shafts.
> 
> Jon

Even simpler Jon, just add 2 cogs to the belt & everything falls right back 
at the proper place.  It would take me about half an hour, piling bits and 
pieces back up on top of the adjacent tool cabinet to get where I could put 
a caliper on the C-C, which is very close to the maximum a 6" caliper can 
reach.

The weather is good, so I'll mess with it some more today.

But I am with John K., I think these pulleys are 3/16, not XL, and the new 
belts may in fact be XL's.  There is a definite miss-fit, allowing about a 
30 thou belly on the back of the pulley at the midpoint of the belt wrap.  
Belt cog and pulley wear (and heating under load) will be a wear factor 
that can't be ignored.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 13:25:43 John Kasunich did opine:

> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

Chuckle.  But how old is that?  we must have at least 20 by now.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 12:29:32 John Kasunich did opine:

> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014, at 11:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Damn John, I just counted it twice more and got 31 both times.
> > At a top of the tooth diameter of 1.803, where the heck does that
> > leave us/me?
> > 
> > 
> > The smaller driver pulley, is .976" across the top of the teeth, and
> > 17 teeth, .388" between the flanges.  So a .375 wide belt will fit,
> > as will a 9.5mm wide belt.  But a 10mm  will be pinched until it
> > burns up the flange anyway.
> 
> OK, we have two data points: 17 teeth and 0.976 OD, and 31 teeth with
> an OD of 1.803.
> 
> We also have two unknowns, the belt pitch and the distance from the
> OD to the pitch line.  That should be solvable. Wait a bit while I try
> to do math.
> 
> OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me mystified,
> because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a fair bit if
> tooth- belt research for different projects.)

I think you have nailed it.
 
> I did some googling for 3/16" pitch belts.  I stumbled across a few
> similar tales of woe on various forums.  Eastern lathes with belts of
> approximately 3/16" pitch, and nobody able to find spares.
> 
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-metal-working-machines/112495-timi
> ng-belt-available-lathe.html
> http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,5006.msg56077.html?PHPSESSID=tef5o
> 88m42hje4vlt64jolptb2#msg56077
> 
> One person said:
> >> I believe that Roman is correct on the 3/16" pitch. This is an old
> >> design from the 50's or 60's and was know as an F profile. There
> >> were never any standard sizes and molds were just purchased
> >> for a specific OE project. The bad news is that very few F profile
> >> belts are still available and would not be something that an
> >> industrial distributor would be able to get for you.
> 
> Why a fairly modern Chinese lathe would be using a 50 year old
> inch belt type is another mystery, although someone in one of
> those threads speculated that the Chinese factory either had a
> big stock of belts, or had the mandrel that is used to make the
> belts.

Again, it makes sense, this design had been in the sale papers of the cheap 
tool peddlers like HF for at least 10 years when I bought this one back in 
the late 90's off a Speedway truck at the local VFD.
 
> At this point I'm pretty sure it is NOT any modern standard
> belt profile.  How hard would it be to replace the pulleys?
> XL profile is probably the most readily available and cheapest.

>From SPI-SC, about $175 a set in metal & what I assume is kevlar belt 
backing.  In XL format. The bores are a hair odd, and it would be the first 
time they ever broached a 4mm key in a 10mm bore for the top pulley. STD is 
a 3mm for that bore. And there is not room to make the top one more than 30 
thou bigger without dremel work on the bolt bosses that hold that die cast 
cover in place on the back of the spindle/gear housing.  So it can be done, 
just bring money.  OEM stuff can be had for about 10% of that, for a full 
set, 2 pulleys and the belt.

The weather is decent, already 60F & change, so I'll mess with it some more 
today, and maybe even refit the motor mount. But the tooth miss-match tells 
me wear will be high under any conditions of enough tension to keep it from 
walking.

Thanks John.


Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Jon Elson 
On 03/11/2014 08:48 AM, sa...@empirescreen.com wrote:
> In our first attempt to make the spindle encoder for the K&T - we grabbed a 
> timing gear that we had 2 of..  (Something from some old printers we took 
> apart (70's vintage probably).  Well - when we got all done we could not find 
> a belt to match the pitch.  We gave up and used different timing gears that 
> we knew fit a common belt.
>
>
Yup, that's how I found out about 2mm pitch belts!  I added 
a spindle
encoder to a minimill shortly before going to one of the NAMES
shows.
(See last pic at http://pico-systems.com/minimill.html   )
  I used some junk pulleys off a printer tractor feed mechanism,
I think.  I ordered MXL belts for it, put it all together 
and then saw
"lumps" running around the pulleys.  After watching for a while,
I realized it was a pitch mismatch and about every rev it would
build up and the belt would jump a tooth.  With time rapidly
running out before the show, I ordered 2mm belts, hoping 
that would
be the correct size.  (I was able to determine the required 
pitch
was SMALLER than the MXL belt, so I had a pretty good idea
the only other thing it could be was 2mm.)  The right belts
showed up just days before I had to leave for NAMES, but
I was able to get a very early version of lathe threading
working for display there.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Jon Elson 
On 03/11/2014 08:27 AM, John Kasunich wrote:
>
>
>
> OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me mystified,
> because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a fair bit if tooth-
> belt research for different projects.)
>
>
Well, 5 mm is ~ .197", so maybe accounting for the pitch 
diameter to be
larger than the pulley OD, that could match up.  these 
numbers are only
about 6% different.  So, it certainly could be a perfect 5 
mm PD at
the actual diameter where it is supposed to be measured.  
With that
in hand, Gene could probably use one of those on-line belt 
length
calculator programs to figure the correct belt length for 
the distance
between shafts.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Growing old [Was: Re: Need longer belt]

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 11:40:24 Erik Christiansen did opine:

> On 11.03.14 07:16, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Then the MRI they took on my lower back Friday is so bad they may as
> > well just take me out and shoot me.  Don't get old guys, its not for
> > wimps but the back pain is turning me into one anyway. Sigh.  Its
> > this stuff that keeps me out of the bars!
> 
> When ordinary pain killers don't do anything any more, here in Aus they
> give you morphine patches. OK, you work your way up through the dosages
> with time, and they'll give you [un]funny dreams in the higher dosages,
> but being able to move is usually worth it. A back op, if possible,
> isn't without risk, but can do wonders. (mostly)
> 
> Hope you find some decent treatment in that healthcare desert over
> there.
> 
> Erik

I can find it, and some of it would even be $$ covered, but the way they go 
in is from in front, roll your innards out of the way and work from the 
inside as there is much less muscular structure to cut thru so the disk can 
be replaced.  And they would need a full carton of disks. 

So this is not exactly a medical desert, you just need to find the right 
Dr. and make him a friend.  This one I've been seeing for about 4 or 5 
years now, we got into a verbal fight the first time we met but since then 
he and I talk, about lots of common interests.  And tease each other about 
digging our graves with our mouths because we both have "bay windows".  I 
want him around to treat me till is the theory...

But, there are also arterial plaques in the aorta an inch away that do not 
want to be disturbed for obvious reasons.  It would be a lot safer if I can 
figure out how to get my HDL to be the majority component of my cholesterol 
as that would gradually clear those deposits out, carrying them to the 
liver for filtering and eventual excretion.  HDL was in the 40's which 
isn't too bad considering it was only 11 25 years ago, but for this to work 
in say a year, would probably need to go up, way up.

They have meds for that, the question is can I tolerate them?

The doc tried to put me on Mevacor 30 years ago and that was both very 
painful from overall muscle pain, and from what that doc said, was hard on 
my liver.  When he heard about the muscle pain I was advised to stop it 
instantly as it was a precursor to a full blown lethal reaction.  I did and 
the pain subsided in about 2 weeks and I've not taken a statin since.

But I have no clue how the HDL raising stuff, relatively new & damned 
pricey, works.  Apparently not the same as the rest of the "statins" like 
Lipitor et all.

There will be discussions as to how we proceed when my Dr. has had a chance 
to study & make recommendations. He's a good doc, does his homework well. 
Then we argue... But we haven't had a talk yet.

Being also a DM type 2, statistically I am a decade, maybe more past my 
expiration date, so that will no doubt enter into the discussion too in all 
too clearly stated speech.  And we're good about it that way.

You know, this hasn't a thing to do with making swarf... :)

Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread John Kasunich 
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png 

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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread samco 
In our first attempt to make the spindle encoder for the K&T - we grabbed a 
timing gear that we had 2 of..  (Something from some old printers we took apart 
(70's vintage probably).  Well - when we got all done we could not find a belt 
to match the pitch.  We gave up and used different timing gears that we knew 
fit a common belt.

unknown gear...
http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/testing/DSCF1231.JPG

sam


On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:27:30 -0400
 John Kasunich  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014, at 11:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> > Damn John, I just counted it twice more and got 31 both times.
> > At a top of the tooth diameter of 1.803, where the heck does that leave 
> > us/me?
> > 
> > 
> > The smaller driver pulley, is .976" across the top of the teeth, and 17 
> > teeth, .388" between the flanges.  So a .375 wide belt will fit, as will a 
> > 9.5mm wide belt.  But a 10mm  will be pinched until it burns up the flange 
> > anyway.
> > 
> 
> OK, we have two data points: 17 teeth and 0.976 OD, and 31 teeth with
> an OD of 1.803.
> 
> We also have two unknowns, the belt pitch and the distance from the 
> OD to the pitch line.  That should be solvable. Wait a bit while I try to
> do math.
> 
> OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me mystified,
> because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a fair bit if tooth-
> belt research for different projects.)
> 
> I did some googling for 3/16" pitch belts.  I stumbled across a few
> similar tales of woe on various forums.  Eastern lathes with belts of
> approximately 3/16" pitch, and nobody able to find spares.
> 
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-metal-working-machines/112495-timing-belt-available-lathe.html
> http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,5006.msg56077.html?PHPSESSID=tef5o88m42hje4vlt64jolptb2#msg56077
> 
> One person said:
> >> I believe that Roman is correct on the 3/16" pitch. This is an old
> >> design from the 50's or 60's and was know as an F profile. There
> >> were never any standard sizes and molds were just purchased
> >> for a specific OE project. The bad news is that very few F profile
> >> belts are still available and would not be something that an
> >> industrial distributor would be able to get for you. 
> 
> Why a fairly modern Chinese lathe would be using a 50 year old 
> inch belt type is another mystery, although someone in one of
> those threads speculated that the Chinese factory either had a
> big stock of belts, or had the mandrel that is used to make the 
> belts.
> 
> At this point I'm pretty sure it is NOT any modern standard 
> belt profile.  How hard would it be to replace the pulleys?
> XL profile is probably the most readily available and cheapest.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
> 
> --
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread John Kasunich 


On Mon, Mar 10, 2014, at 11:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Damn John, I just counted it twice more and got 31 both times.
> At a top of the tooth diameter of 1.803, where the heck does that leave 
> us/me?
> 
> 
> The smaller driver pulley, is .976" across the top of the teeth, and 17 
> teeth, .388" between the flanges.  So a .375 wide belt will fit, as will a 
> 9.5mm wide belt.  But a 10mm  will be pinched until it burns up the flange 
> anyway.
> 

OK, we have two data points: 17 teeth and 0.976 OD, and 31 teeth with
an OD of 1.803.

We also have two unknowns, the belt pitch and the distance from the 
OD to the pitch line.  That should be solvable. Wait a bit while I try to
do math.

OK, math done.  The pitch comes out to 0.1855", which has me mystified,
because I've never heard of such a thing.  (I've done a fair bit if tooth-
belt research for different projects.)

I did some googling for 3/16" pitch belts.  I stumbled across a few
similar tales of woe on various forums.  Eastern lathes with belts of
approximately 3/16" pitch, and nobody able to find spares.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-metal-working-machines/112495-timing-belt-available-lathe.html
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,5006.msg56077.html?PHPSESSID=tef5o88m42hje4vlt64jolptb2#msg56077

One person said:
>> I believe that Roman is correct on the 3/16" pitch. This is an old
>> design from the 50's or 60's and was know as an F profile. There
>> were never any standard sizes and molds were just purchased
>> for a specific OE project. The bad news is that very few F profile
>> belts are still available and would not be something that an
>> industrial distributor would be able to get for you. 

Why a fairly modern Chinese lathe would be using a 50 year old 
inch belt type is another mystery, although someone in one of
those threads speculated that the Chinese factory either had a
big stock of belts, or had the mandrel that is used to make the 
belts.

At this point I'm pretty sure it is NOT any modern standard 
belt profile.  How hard would it be to replace the pulleys?
XL profile is probably the most readily available and cheapest.



-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

--
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[Emc-users] OT: Growing old [Was: Re: Need longer belt]

2014-03-11 Thread Erik Christiansen 
On 11.03.14 07:16, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Then the MRI they took on my lower back Friday is so bad they may as well 
> just take me out and shoot me.  Don't get old guys, its not for wimps but 
> the back pain is turning me into one anyway. Sigh.  Its this stuff that 
> keeps me out of the bars!

When ordinary pain killers don't do anything any more, here in Aus they
give you morphine patches. OK, you work your way up through the dosages
with time, and they'll give you [un]funny dreams in the higher dosages,
but being able to move is usually worth it. A back op, if possible,
isn't without risk, but can do wonders. (mostly)

Hope you find some decent treatment in that healthcare desert over there.

Erik

-- 
J Fulton Sheen: The big print giveth and the fine print taketh away.


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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 06:06:32 Steve Blackmore did opine:

> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:21:56 -0400, you wrote:
> >On Monday 10 March 2014 18:19:45 jeremy youngs did opine:
> >> gene , have a go at this
> >> http://precisionparts.wmberg.com/timingBeltsChains
> >
> >I am thinking I need a 5mm pitch, 9.5mm wide, 72 cogs long, but they
> >only go up to 3mm pitch.
> 
> If it's a Sieg C2 or clone the correct belt is a 5mm pitch 9mm wide 70
> tooth
Does that translate to a 7x12 a good decade old?  One fly in this soup. 
Where the motor WAS, is now a jackshaft, mounted in a frame of 1/2" thick 
high silicon alu, drill & tapped to mount exactly where the motor WAS.  
That means the mount is quite grossly adjustable up and down as the holding 
studs can rise or fall in a pair of slots in the front face of the lathes 
bed casting, with the 1HP treadmill motor hanging off the back of the 
jackshaft frame. These studs draw the base of the frame up against a pair 
of adjustable set screws, so that the motor, by way of the slots, can be 
jacked up and down OR leveled so the belt runs true. The setscrews then 
provide a pivot point, allowing the motor to be aligned so the belt 
tracking doesn't want to run against one flange in forward rotation, but 
crawl to the other flange in reverse.  But with the new parts, this 
properly aligned position has jumped vertically by about 2 cogs of the 
belt, raising the outboard motor a good 1/4" IOW.  So I now need a 72 cog 
belt, one what actually fits the upper pulley correctly since this belt 
seems to be about 2 or 3 thou longer per cog on the pulley and throwing a 
just barely detectable slack loop at the back of the belt wrap.

This will put so much wear and friction heating on the thrust faces of the 
cogs and the belt that I can't see it running for a long time at all.

And for some reason I have yet to fathom, replacing both pulleys and the 
belt with these OEM parts, all of which have been working well since I put 
that assembly in early last summer, have now cause the center to center 
distance to be reduced to where I now need a 72 tooth belt to once again 
lower the motor by about that much as the flywheel on the motor now 
projects about 80 thou into the top cover that tries to keep the swarf out 
of the electronics since all the motors drive electronics except the 
dynamic braking are also in this box. The braking relays are in another 
smaller box bolted to the lid of this box. The whole pair of boxes is made 
out of alu angle for the corners, and slabs of 1/8" alu sheet from a 
wrecked UPS van box side.  Handy stuff to collect when you stumble over it. 
:)

Where last summer it sat low enough that the mounting stud nuts were nicely 
accessible to a 10mm socket, below the line of the 16mm Z drive ball screw, 
now its all so high I have to sneak a 10mm end wrench in behind the Z screw 
and turn the nuts about 1/12th turn per stroke of the wrench.

Something in these supposedly identical new parts just doesn't fit right. I 
can tilt it down so the motor clears, but then the jackshaft is quite 
noticeably tilted off the Z axis line of the whole lathe bed, running 
uphill to get to the lower pulley with lots of tension on the belt and its 
riding the flange, HARD.  Frustration with the whole mary ann is running 
high enough that I'm looking at the 11x28 from Bolton Hdwe.  But it comes 
with such a puny powered spindle and zip accessories that the true price 
will be about 3Gs more than they want by the time its truly useful.  TBT, 
it cannot, with that spindle power, cut material in excess of 1" OD in 
comfort.  That is about my situation now, regardless of motor power, its 
out of cast iron at about 1" OD.

And with the lathe down, the putting ball screws in the mill project is 
also dead in the water because I can't make the nut holders.

Then the MRI they took on my lower back Friday is so bad they may as well 
just take me out and shoot me.  Don't get old guys, its not for wimps but 
the back pain is turning me into one anyway. Sigh.  Its this stuff that 
keeps me out of the bars!

> Steve Blackmore
> --
> 
> 
> -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> ___
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Need longer belt

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Blackmore 
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:21:56 -0400, you wrote:

>On Monday 10 March 2014 18:19:45 jeremy youngs did opine:
>
>> gene , have a go at this
>> http://precisionparts.wmberg.com/timingBeltsChains
>> 
>I am thinking I need a 5mm pitch, 9.5mm wide, 72 cogs long, but they only 
>go up to 3mm pitch.

If it's a Sieg C2 or clone the correct belt is a 5mm pitch 9mm wide 70
tooth

Steve Blackmore
--

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