Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:14:42 -0600, you wrote:

>Your £332 Gecko was likely bought by the seller for £210, add on the 
>additional taxes they get nailed with for re-selling, plus profit... But 
>you're used to it, you have to pay to own a TV, even if you never ever 
>watch the BBC.

UK would add 20% import duty + 20% VAT (sales tax) + £11 to the carrier
for collecting the above money off you before delivering! 

Those are very recent figures I got ripped off with importing an item
from the USA.

Strangely, importing from China is often much cheaper as they usually
lie on the value of the goods or just don't putting it on the outside of
the package like all US exporters do ;)

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 3/16/2014 5:47 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
 h=1&products_id=21
>> 3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to
>> USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).
>
> Shipping around the world seems to be in free fall at the moment?
> 'Ripoff' is probably the right word, but it is the fat cat financial people 
> and
> the carriers who are doing it?
> I don't bring Gecko stuff into the UK because of the cost of shipping it over,
> but I was tempted to buy one of Peter when he first sold them on offer as 
> there
> was a substantial saving buying an American unit from Australia into Europe.
>
> If a buy a certain Gecko product in the UK it's £332 delivered. If I buy it 
> from
> the US direct its only £210 even with express delivery. From Peter it comes in
> at only £200 today ... Wish I had picked one up now when it was on offer ;)

In many countries, especially in Europe, there's Value Added Tax, plus a 
sales tax, import tariffs, duties, often especially high on electronics. 
(Some countries have charged 50~100%!)

Your £332 Gecko was likely bought by the seller for £210, add on the 
additional taxes they get nailed with for re-selling, plus profit... But 
you're used to it, you have to pay to own a TV, even if you never ever 
watch the BBC.

In the USA a favored tactic for Less Than Load (LTL) freight is the 
"fuel surcharge". Trucking companies will charge the entire cost of fuel 
for the trip to every shipment on the truck. When I looked into getting 
a $500 9" South Bend lathe shipped from New York to Idaho, the fuel 
surcharge was $400, on top of the shipping charge. For the lowest cost I 
could find for shipping that one lathe, I could fly to New York, rent a 
truck and drive back here, and I'd have space at no additional cost to 
load up more lathes and other machines.

If there's just one more regulation the transport industry needs, it 
should be to have it so fuel surcharges total for a load cannot exceed 
the actual cost of the fuel, divided equally amongst the shipments on 
the truck, train, aircraft or other vehicle.


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Mark Wendt]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> >
> > Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
> > spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one
> > of those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...
> >
> > Mark
>
> Now I need a couple paper towels to wipe up the drool. :)
>
> Cheers, Gene
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>


Almost 8 lbs of pork.  Slow smoked at 225 deg F for about 15 hours.  It
practically fell apart at the touch when I pulled it off the smoker rack.
It's going to make some awfully good sammiches this week.  ;-)

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 16 March 2014 12:59:15 Mark Wendt did opine:

> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > I'm thinking, mostly thinking its about feedbag time. :)
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> > --
> > 
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > 
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> 
> Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
> spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one
> of those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...
> 
> Mark

Now I need a couple paper towels to wipe up the drool. :)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 16 March 2014 12:48:23 Peter Homann did opine:

> Hi Gene,
> 
> Sorry, missed your reply. I was in the shed trying to do a bit more on
> my mill conversion.
> 
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/158266-homann-designs-tm
> 20lv-bf20-g0704-conversion.html
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter

Looks like an interesting project Peter, I have thought about such myself, 
but I'm running out of time. But you were the wrong Peter, I was addressing 
the Mesa Peter.  No biggie. ;-)

I should be more specific in my salutations I guess. :(

You are aware that ball screw kits for this family of machines are 
available on eBay?

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Mark Wendt]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Kirk Wallace
wrote:

>
> >
> > Wowh... gotta go rib shopping soon!  :-)
> > Now what was I doing before I read this..
> > Dave
>
>
> Yes ... ... fresh picked squash sautéed with onions, red pepper,
> broccoli, served with rice. Fresh picked spinach, and cherry tomatoes,
> with honey mustard dressing. No suffering imposed on fellow earthlings,
> conserved water, and healthy living soil. It doesn't get much better.
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
>


Was that in addition to the smoked ribs?  ;-)

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Kirk Wallace]

On 03/16/2014 09:35 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> On 3/16/2014 10:24 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>>
 Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
 spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one of
 those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...

 Mark
>>> Gee Mark...
>>> Thanks a lot.
>>> I was doing ok before, but now I am hungry and thinking about my rib
>>> roasting techniques.  I think I need to practice again.
>>> Smoking them would be even better..  :-)
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>> Sorry Dave.  ;-)
>>
>> Smoked a full rack of ribs a coupla weekends ago.  They were mighty tasty
>> too.  ;-)
>>
>> Mark
>
> Wowh... gotta go rib shopping soon!  :-)
> Now what was I doing before I read this..
> Dave


Yes ... ... fresh picked squash sautéed with onions, red pepper, 
broccoli, served with rice. Fresh picked spinach, and cherry tomatoes, 
with honey mustard dressing. No suffering imposed on fellow earthlings, 
conserved water, and healthy living soil. It doesn't get much better.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Mark Wendt]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

>
> >>
> >
> > Sorry Dave.  ;-)
> >
> > Smoked a full rack of ribs a coupla weekends ago.  They were mighty tasty
> > too.  ;-)
> >
> > Mark
>
> Wowh... gotta go rib shopping soon!  :-)
> Now what was I doing before I read this..
> Dave
>


Momma Claus and Daughter Claus got me the smoker for Christmas this past
year.  I've been spending a few weekends "practicing."  I've got smoked
salmon down pat, and found a very delectable recipe for brisket that makes
my mouth water just thinking about it.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Dave Cole]

On 3/16/2014 10:24 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>
>>> Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
>>> spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one of
>>> those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...
>>>
>>> Mark
>> Gee Mark...
>> Thanks a lot.
>> I was doing ok before, but now I am hungry and thinking about my rib
>> roasting techniques.  I think I need to practice again.
>> Smoking them would be even better..  :-)
>> Dave
>>
>
> Sorry Dave.  ;-)
>
> Smoked a full rack of ribs a coupla weekends ago.  They were mighty tasty
> too.  ;-)
>
> Mark

Wowh... gotta go rib shopping soon!  :-)
Now what was I doing before I read this..
Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Mark Wendt]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

>
> >
> > Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
> > spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one of
> > those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...
> >
> > Mark
>
> Gee Mark...
> Thanks a lot.
> I was doing ok before, but now I am hungry and thinking about my rib
> roasting techniques.  I think I need to practice again.
> Smoking them would be even better..  :-)
> Dave
>


Sorry Dave.  ;-)

Smoked a full rack of ribs a coupla weekends ago.  They were mighty tasty
too.  ;-)

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Dave Cole]

On 3/16/2014 8:42 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking, mostly thinking its about feedbag time. :)
>>
>> Cheers, Gene
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>
> Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
> spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one of
> those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...
>
> Mark

Gee Mark...
Thanks a lot.
I was doing ok before, but now I am hungry and thinking about my rib 
roasting techniques.  I think I need to practice again.
Smoking them would be even better..  :-)
Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Mark Wendt]

On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm thinking, mostly thinking its about feedbag time. :)
>
> Cheers, Gene
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>


Speaking of feedbag time, completely un-LinuCNC and un-machine related,
spent yesterday smoking a Boston Pork Butt.  First time I ever did one of
those.  O. M. G.  Is it tasty...

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Lester Caine]

Dave Cole wrote:
 http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
> h=1&products_id=21
>>> >>3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to
>>> >>USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).
>> >Shipping around the world seems to be in free fall at the moment?
>> >'Ripoff' is probably the right word, but it is the fat cat financial people 
>> >and
>> >the carriers who are doing it?
>> >I don't bring Gecko stuff into the UK because of the cost of shipping it 
>> >over,
>> >but I was tempted to buy one of Peter when he first sold them on offer as 
>> >there
>> >was a substantial saving buying an American unit from Australia into Europe.
>> >
>> >If a buy a certain Gecko product in the UK it's £332 delivered. If I buy it 
>> >from
>> >the US direct its only £210 even with express delivery. From Peter it comes 
>> >in
>> >at only £200 today ... Wish I had picked one up now when it was on offer;)
> I have never understood why prices in the UK for tech equipment is so high 
> oftentimes.
Some things are controlled by local distributors who 'value add' but one does 
wonder at times.

> £332 vs £200 is crazy.   For that price difference couldn't you import it for 
> £200, pay duties, sell it for £280 and still make a nice profit while 
> undercutting the guy selling it for £332?  I must not understand what is 
> required to get tech equipment into the UK.
It is always a gamble if you end up paying duty on single items and to be 
honest 
I do tend to be more lucky from Oz than the US, but There could be around 25% 
local charges on any bulk shipment covering VAT and handling. I was going to 
say 
that the £332 would include VAT until I saw the final bill is actually £398.87 
!!! Being VAT registered does have advantages :)

> With container ships zipping across the oceans, shipping should be cheap if 
> you can wait for a couple of weeks.
Shipping is not so much the problem ... it's cashflow. I've got some Taig mills 
and spares on order at the moment, but until I can pay up front for them ... 
The 
bank manager and paypal make more profit than I do :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Dave Cole]

On 3/16/2014 6:47 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
 h=1&products_id=21
>> 3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to
>> USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).
> Shipping around the world seems to be in free fall at the moment?
> 'Ripoff' is probably the right word, but it is the fat cat financial people 
> and
> the carriers who are doing it?
> I don't bring Gecko stuff into the UK because of the cost of shipping it over,
> but I was tempted to buy one of Peter when he first sold them on offer as 
> there
> was a substantial saving buying an American unit from Australia into Europe.
>
> If a buy a certain Gecko product in the UK it's £332 delivered. If I buy it 
> from
> the US direct its only £210 even with express delivery. From Peter it comes in
> at only £200 today ... Wish I had picked one up now when it was on offer ;)

I have never understood why prices in the UK for tech equipment is so high 
oftentimes.

£332 vs £200 is crazy.   For that price difference couldn't you import it for 
£200, pay duties, sell it for £280 and still make a nice profit while 
undercutting the guy selling it for £332?  I must not understand what is 
required to get tech equipment into the UK.

With container ships zipping across the oceans, shipping should be cheap if you 
can wait for a couple of weeks.

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Lester Caine]

Gene Heskett wrote:
>> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
>> >h=1&products_id=21
> 3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to
> USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).

Shipping around the world seems to be in free fall at the moment?
'Ripoff' is probably the right word, but it is the fat cat financial people and 
the carriers who are doing it?
I don't bring Gecko stuff into the UK because of the cost of shipping it over, 
but I was tempted to buy one of Peter when he first sold them on offer as there 
was a substantial saving buying an American unit from Australia into Europe.

If a buy a certain Gecko product in the UK it's £332 delivered. If I buy it 
from 
the US direct its only £210 even with express delivery. From Peter it comes in 
at only £200 today ... Wish I had picked one up now when it was on offer ;)

-- 
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

Sorry, missed your reply. I was in the shed trying to do a bit more on my mill 
conversion.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/158266-homann-designs-tm20lv-bf20-g0704-conversion.html

Cheers,

Peter

On 16/03/2014 5:49 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 16 March 2014 02:46:15 Peter C. Wallace did opine:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:27:27 +0100
>>> From: Philipp Burch 
>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
>>>
>>> Hi Peter!
>>>
>>> On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
>>>>> From: Philipp Burch 
>>>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gene!
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings again;
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps.
>>>> Its designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors
>>>> for 100 Hz
>>>>
>>>> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high
>>>> output impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2
>>>> ma load)
>>>
>>> Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the
>>> input impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an
>>> industrial device, this should be far below 100k.
>>>
>>>> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1%
>>>> linearity at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
>>>>
>>>> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise
>>>> rail to rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both
>>>> directions --> 2 pole filter --> THS4281 follower
>>>
>>> Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder
>>> to compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the
>>> time domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.
>>>
>>> But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
>>> solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Philipp
>>
>> Sure most VFDs can use ModBus but isolated analog spindle controls are
>> often used for KBIC type DC motor controllers or similar devices that
>> are simple pure analog controllers. Analog (or some real time digital
>> control) is also needed if its desired to close the spindle speed loop
>> in linuxcnc.
>>
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>
> Peter, can't sleep.  Surveyed my .hal file. I am not as I/O bound as I
> thought, the hal file can grow a few lines yet and generate the 2 separate
> enable and fwd lines your SPINX1 needs.
>
> Look for my order.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 16 March 2014 02:46:15 Peter C. Wallace did opine:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:27:27 +0100
> > From: Philipp Burch 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> > 
> > Hi Peter!
> > 
> > On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> >> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> >>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
> >>> From: Philipp Burch 
> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Gene!
> >>> 
> >>> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>> Greetings again;
> >>>> [...]
> >> 
> >> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps.
> >> Its designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors
> >> for 100 Hz
> >> 
> >> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high
> >> output impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2
> >> ma load)
> > 
> > Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the
> > input impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an
> > industrial device, this should be far below 100k.
> > 
> >> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1%
> >> linearity at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
> >> 
> >> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise
> >> rail to rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both
> >> directions --> 2 pole filter --> THS4281 follower
> > 
> > Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder
> > to compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the
> > time domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.
> > 
> > But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
> > solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Philipp
> 
> Sure most VFDs can use ModBus but isolated analog spindle controls are
> often used for KBIC type DC motor controllers or similar devices that
> are simple pure analog controllers. Analog (or some real time digital
> control) is also needed if its desired to close the spindle speed loop
> in linuxcnc.
> 
> 
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics

Peter, can't sleep.  Surveyed my .hal file. I am not as I/O bound as I 
thought, the hal file can grow a few lines yet and generate the 2 separate 
enable and fwd lines your SPINX1 needs.

Look for my order.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Kirk Wallace]

On 03/15/2014 04:44 PM, Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you are after closed loop spindle control for a KBIC style treadmill
> controller a 5Hz PWM signal driving a PWM to analog converter is unlikely to
> provide a satisfying result. Most close loop control systems use a 1KHz update
> rate. You may get adequate results with a 100Hz update but 5Hz is too slow.

As a side note on KBIC controllers. I believe they have an analog 
feedback loop by sampling the forward voltage from the motor during the 
AC input zero crossing. Motor voltage = RPM. To me, its quite clever. I 
don't know if there are many analog designers any more, but I guess 
there is at least one. KB has a number of accessories available to go 
with the KBIC, so don't forget to check their website. (I have no 
connection to KB, but after studying the KBIC internals, I'm a bit of a fan)

> Further to that, most converters including my DigiSpeeds filter the analog
> output to smooth the control voltage. Also the KBIC controllers are also doing
> the same thing resulting in a lag that will be hard to compensate for.

Because the KBIC has an internal loop, if it works, it may not be worth 
fixing with another loop, but then again.

Another thing, the KBIC is a Speed Controller as opposed to a servo 
drive that has four drive modes. It's really designed for applications 
that don't change speed or reverse quickly. It can be made to brake and 
reverse, but one is better off with a different drive for applications 
like rigid tapping. I think a Pico PWM drive might do nicely (but check 
with Jon on the filter caps and inductor heat for steady state 
applications).

> That said you can have feedback that will help to maintain a constant speed
> and correct the speed over a few seconds. Earlier Mach3 version had this
> capability and it worked quite well. You could see the spindle speed creep up
> to the set speed over a second or two. When the speed dropped as cutting
> started, the speed would increase back to the set speed.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter

Hey, Peter H. Glad to see that it seems you're doing well.


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http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[andy pugh]

On 16 March 2014 00:35, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> That is an interesting idea Andy, but with 3 uptodate LCNC installs here
> that DO include the docs, I find it puzzling that there is not now, an
> installed man page for lincurve on either of these 3 machines.

Lincurve is currently only present in Master. But it may be that you
compiled it for your own use in your configs.
If that is the case then man lincurve should find it. Alternatively,
look at the web docs.
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/lincurve.9.html

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 20:28:31 andy pugh did opine:

> On 16 March 2014 00:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Alternatively, why not run closed-loop spindle speed, then it doesn't
> >> matter if the control is non linear.
> > 
> > Because of the positive gain, enough Pgain to make it work fairly
> > stiff at 300 rpm, is enough to make it obviously oscillate at 800 rpm
> > and up.
> 
> Have you ever wondered why Lincurve has an i/o pin copy of its output?
> This is because my intended use-case was for making PID gains variable
> in relation to other things, and Pgain and friends are (rather oddly)
> bidirectional pins.

Demo configuration please?
 
> So, lincurve is perfect for making your PID gains vary with spindle
> speed.

That is an interesting idea Andy, but with 3 uptodate LCNC installs here 
that DO include the docs, I find it puzzling that there is not now, an 
installed man page for lincurve on either of these 3 machines.  I'd swear 
on a good sized stack of bibles it was there last fall when I configured 
that.  This is the current 2.5.3 build, updated in the last 24 hours.

So obviously, the doc build is still kaput.  (me waves hand urgently for 
attention)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Philipp Burch]

Hi Peter!

On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> 
>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
>> From: Philipp Burch 
>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> 
>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
>>
>> Hi Gene!
>>
>> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings again;
>>> [...]
>>
>>
> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps. Its 
> designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors for 100 Hz
> 
> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high output 
> impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2 ma load)
> 

Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the input
impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an industrial
device, this should be far below 100k.

> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1% 
> linearity 
> at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
> 
> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise rail to 
> rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both directions --> 2 
> pole 
> filter --> THS4281 follower
> 

Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder to
compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the time
domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.

But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?

Regards,
Philipp



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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[andy pugh]

On 16 March 2014 00:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Alternatively, why not run closed-loop spindle speed, then it doesn't
>> matter if the control is non linear.
>
> Because of the positive gain, enough Pgain to make it work fairly stiff
> at 300 rpm, is enough to make it obviously oscillate at 800 rpm and up.

Have you ever wondered why Lincurve has an i/o pin copy of its output?
This is because my intended use-case was for making PID gains variable
in relation to other things, and Pgain and friends are (rather oddly)
bidirectional pins.

So, lincurve is perfect for making your PID gains vary with spindle speed.



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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 19:37:55 andy pugh did opine:

> On 14 March 2014 20:23, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> > another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.
> 
> Why are you so obsessed by linearity? I thought you had already
> managed to linearise in software?
I have, but its so non-linear you wouldn't believe the comp curve I have 
setup in lincurve.  But its after the PID & before the pwmgen so the gain 
is much closer in that the PID at least stays within its error limits.

At the higher end of the scale, the gain is considerably reduced because 
without it, the motor speed near the top of its speed range vs the input 
voltage, approaches the shape of an exponential curve, going nearly 
vertically.  Friction/stiction is a problem below .5 rps of course that 
I try to compensate for with the PWMGEN.0.offset, enough that the initial
1 value will move the chuck about 10 degrees at the direction icon click.

Here is a paste of that curve in the lincurve module:

# now, distort pid out to get s### matching speeds, countering non-linearity in 
drivers pwm decoding
net spindle-raw-pwm pid.0.output
lincurve.0.in
# initial settings for transparent lincurve.0, trim y's for effect.
setplincurve.0.x-val-00 0.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-00 0.000 # so zero is not transmuted upward
setplincurve.0.x-val-01 100.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-01 122.000 # needs a boost to get to 100 
real
setplincurve.0.x-val-02 150.00
setplincurve.0.y-val-02 215.000 # ditto, big boost to make 150
setplincurve.0.x-val-03 600.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-03 550.000 # slight pull back
setplincurve.0.x-val-04 800.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-04 711.000 # bigger pull back
setplincurve.0.x-val-05 900.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-05 775.000 # big pull back
setplincurve.0.x-val-06 1000.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-06 830.000 # even bigger pull back
setplincurve.0.x-val-07 1100.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-07 890.000 # bigger yet pullback
setplincurve.0.x-val-08 1200.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-08 950.000 # likewise
setplincurve.0.x-val-09 1300.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-09 1000.000 # ditto
setplincurve.0.x-val-10 1400.000
setplincurve.0.y-val-10 1050.000 # ditto
# then feed output to pwmgen.0.value
net spindle-pwm-fixed   lincurve.0.out  
pwmgen.0.value


> Alternatively, why not run closed-loop spindle speed, then it doesn't
> matter if the control is non linear.

Because of the positive gain, enough Pgain to make it work fairly stiff 
at 300 rpm, is enough to make it obviously oscillate at 800 rpm and up.
 
> A further point is that the correct speed isn't a fixed RPM value
> anyway, it is that area between "too fast" and "too slow" where the
> machining works well.

Quite true, but consistent speeds are required when threading since the 
thread slides sideways at the higher revs due to the lockup delay.  G76 
in particular needs to do a dummy lockup just to measure that lag in 
encoder counts, then move the lockup initiation to that many counts 
ahead of the next expected index pulse.  Its not as if the pulses aren't 
there to count so it can know when the next index pulse is due.  If this 
was active, keeping track of how many counts it was off then 2 things 
could be done.

1. If the first trace of the thread looks ok, you could crank up the 
spindle speed slowly without wrecking the thread because it slides 
sideways because it would see the one or 3 count error and correct it
on the next cycle and

2. you would wind up with a much more accurately cut thread.  One whose
start position was well known regardless of the rpms.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter Homann]

Hi,

If you are after closed loop spindle control for a KBIC style treadmill 
controller a 5Hz PWM signal driving a PWM to analog converter is unlikely to 
provide a satisfying result. Most close loop control systems use a 1KHz update 
rate. You may get adequate results with a 100Hz update but 5Hz is too slow.

Further to that, most converters including my DigiSpeeds filter the analog 
output to smooth the control voltage. Also the KBIC controllers are also doing 
the same thing resulting in a lag that will be hard to compensate for.

That said you can have feedback that will help to maintain a constant speed 
and correct the speed over a few seconds. Earlier Mach3 version had this 
capability and it worked quite well. You could see the spindle speed creep up 
to the set speed over a second or two. When the speed dropped as cutting 
started, the speed would increase back to the set speed.

Cheers,

Peter

On 16/03/2014 9:23 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 14 March 2014 20:23, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
>> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.
>
> Why are you so obsessed by linearity? I thought you had already
> managed to linearise in software?
> Alternatively, why not run closed-loop spindle speed, then it doesn't
> matter if the control is non linear.
>
> A further point is that the correct speed isn't a fixed RPM value
> anyway, it is that area between "too fast" and "too slow" where the
> machining works well.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[andy pugh]

On 14 March 2014 20:23, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.

Why are you so obsessed by linearity? I thought you had already
managed to linearise in software?
Alternatively, why not run closed-loop spindle speed, then it doesn't
matter if the control is non linear.

A further point is that the correct speed isn't a fixed RPM value
anyway, it is that area between "too fast" and "too slow" where the
machining works well.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 17:49:19 Philipp Burch did opine:

> Hi Peter!
> 
> On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> >> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
> >> From: Philipp Burch 
> >> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >> 
> >>     
> >> 
> >> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> >> 
> >> Hi Gene!
> >> 
> >> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Greetings again;
> >>> [...]
> > 
> > I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps.
> > Its designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors
> > for 100 Hz
> > 
> > It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high
> > output impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2
> > ma load)
> 
> Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the input
> impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an industrial
> device, this should be far below 100k.
> 
> > We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1%
> > linearity at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
> > 
> > Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise
> > rail to rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both
> > directions --> 2 pole filter --> THS4281 follower
> 
> Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder to
> compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the time
> domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.
> 
> But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
> solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?
> 
> Regards,
> Philipp

Nope, these fugitives from a treadmill are all analog pots regardless of 
what the control panel might look like, or at least the drivers I have seen 
are.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 17:51:10 Peter C. Wallace did opine:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:27:27 +0100
> > From: Philipp Burch 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> > 
> > Hi Peter!
> > 
> > On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> >> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> >>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
> >>> From: Philipp Burch 
> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Gene!
> >>> 
> >>> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>> Greetings again;
> >>>> [...]
> >> 
> >> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps.
> >> Its designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors
> >> for 100 Hz
> >> 
> >> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high
> >> output impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2
> >> ma load)
> > 
> > Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the
> > input impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an
> > industrial device, this should be far below 100k.
> > 
> >> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1%
> >> linearity at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
> >> 
> >> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise
> >> rail to rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both
> >> directions --> 2 pole filter --> THS4281 follower
> > 
> > Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder
> > to compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the
> > time domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.
> > 
> > But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
> > solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Philipp
> 
> Sure most VFDs can use ModBus but isolated analog spindle controls are
> often used for KBIC type DC motor controllers or similar devices that
> are simple pure analog controllers. Analog (or some real time digital
> control) is also needed if its desired to close the spindle speed loop
> in linuxcnc.
> 

That is already setup in my hal file Peter.  Probably needs more fine 
tuning for better low speed stiffness but...  I never met a PID control 
till LCNC.  So I am a bit green, or wet behind the ears on the ultimate 
tuning of the beast.  That I believe IS the correct descriptive word too. 
:)

 
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
> 
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:27:27 +0100
> From: Philipp Burch 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> 
> Hi Peter!
>
> On 03/15/2014 09:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
>>> From: Philipp Burch 
>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>> 
>>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
>>>
>>> Hi Gene!
>>>
>>> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>> Greetings again;
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps. Its
>> designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors for 100 Hz
>>
>> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high output
>> impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2 ma load)
>>
>
> Good point, thanks. I didn't check that and I also do not know the input
> impedance of the following circuit. But since it is an industrial
> device, this should be far below 100k.
>
>> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1% 
>> linearity
>> at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
>>
>> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise rail to
>> rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both directions --> 2 
>> pole
>> filter --> THS4281 follower
>>
>
> Yeah, never do the isolation in the analog part. It is so much harder to
> compensate for all the effects of real devices if not only the time
> domain must be concerned, but also the continuous amplitude.
>
> But an even better solution would be to stick to an all-digital
> solution. Don't those/most drives have a digital setpoint input?
>
> Regards,
> Philipp
>
>

Sure most VFDs can use ModBus but isolated analog spindle controls are often 
used for KBIC type DC motor controllers or similar devices that are simple 
pure analog controllers. Analog (or some real time digital control) is also 
needed if its desired to close the spindle speed loop in linuxcnc.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 16:53:05 Peter C. Wallace did opine:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
> > From: Philipp Burch 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> > 
> > Hi Gene!
> > 
> > On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> Greetings again;
> >> 
> >> After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41
> >> seems to have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its
> >> looking like a 4th one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output
> >> impedance in the 100k region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping
> >> nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10 megohm digital meter on its output to
> >> measure it, and getting a hair over 5 volts for my trouble, and a
> >> fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower stage acts exactly like
> >> the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
> >> 
> >> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> >> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do
> >> I fire up eagle & design my own?
> >> 
> >> The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it
> >> needs to fit in by about an inch both ways.
> >> 
> >> Anybody else got any suggestions?
> >> 
> >> Thanks guys.
> > 
> > Do you talk about this unit?
> > 
> > http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C41R2_USER_MANUAL.pdf
> > 
> > I think it should be fairly easy to reverse-engineer the schematic of
> > this little thingy, as there are only through-hole components and (as
> > it looks like) just a single copper layer.
> > 
> > But your comment about the LM358 in conjunction with the problem that
> > you cannot go below ~200mV output voltage caught my attention: The
> > LM358's output stage does not really sink current down to GND, so if
> > the input of your following circuit does not have a pull down, it is
> > likely that this amplifier is the cause of the problem. If so, you
> > could simply replace it by a RRIO (rail-to-rail input and output)
> > type, most standard opamps are pin compatible. If 16V max. Vcc are
> > enough, the TLV2372 could be a suitable replacement. There should be
> > many more to suit your needs, a quick parametric search yields at
> > least three parts which should fit as well:
> > 
> > http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/amplifiers-linear/operational-amplifier-op-a
> > mp-products.page#p78=In;Out&p1261max=32;36V;36&p480=2;2&p10max=0.02;10
> > 0&p2954=PDIP
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Philipp
> 
> I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps. Its
> designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors for 100
> Hz

That sounds like it would be interesting.  My designs tend to be one 
function ponies and don't get to where they are "simplicated" well until 
about version 3 or 4. :)

Thanks Peter.
 
> It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high
> output impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2 ma
> load)
> 
> We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1%
> linearity at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)
> 
> Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise
> rail to rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both
> directions --> 2 pole filter --> THS4281 follower

Sounds like a fairly simple design, Peter.  Thanks.  The relay controls in 
the C41 work well, but I feel the spindle control is due for a serious 
rework.  And despite the 4000 family being rated at 15 volts, I have run 
the decimal decoder on 28 volts for several years with only a modicum of 
detectable heat while it was switching at sub-microsecond speeds.  I used 
it to put colored borders on the characters of a 1st generation NTSC 
character generator in 1980.

FWIW, the input loading of the Gemini is just under 30k, or a fat 27k, so 
it really isn't that much of a load. Assuming 29k, its 53 microamps wide 
open by my calculator.  Sending 15.5 volts into the Gemini's input.  That 
is probably enough to make shrapnel out of that motors flywheel/fan. I 
think I would want some building walls and quite a few yards between me and 
it...

I can't find it on your pages though.

Is this available as a separate item?  It sounds like exactly what I've had 
in mind. $$? $24, found it in the price list.  Where is the web page 

Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, Philipp Burch wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:45:18 +0100
> From: Philipp Burch 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.
> 
> Hi Gene!
>
> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Greetings again;
>>
>> After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems to
>> have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking like a 4th
>> one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in the 100k
>> region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10
>> megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and getting a hair over 5
>> volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower
>> stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
>>
>> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
>> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do I
>> fire up eagle & design my own?
>>
>> The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it needs
>> to fit in by about an inch both ways.
>>
>> Anybody else got any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks guys.
>
> Do you talk about this unit?
>
> http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C41R2_USER_MANUAL.pdf
>
> I think it should be fairly easy to reverse-engineer the schematic of
> this little thingy, as there are only through-hole components and (as it
> looks like) just a single copper layer.
>
> But your comment about the LM358 in conjunction with the problem that
> you cannot go below ~200mV output voltage caught my attention: The
> LM358's output stage does not really sink current down to GND, so if the
> input of your following circuit does not have a pull down, it is likely
> that this amplifier is the cause of the problem. If so, you could simply
> replace it by a RRIO (rail-to-rail input and output) type, most standard
> opamps are pin compatible. If 16V max. Vcc are enough, the TLV2372 could
> be a suitable replacement. There should be many more to suit your needs,
> a quick parametric search yields at least three parts which should fit
> as well:
>
> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/amplifiers-linear/operational-amplifier-op-amp-products.page#p78=In;Out&p1261max=32;36V;36&p480=2;2&p10max=0.02;100&p2954=PDIP
>
> Cheers,
> Philipp
>
>
I can put the SPINX1 schematics up somewhere on Monday if it helps. Its 
designed for FPGA PWM (at 5 KHz) so would need larger capacitors for 100 Hz

It uses a THS4281 (the TLV237x series is nice but has a pretty high output 
impedance so no better than ~.4V from rails with only about 2 ma load)

We get about 50 mv from the rails with a 10K load and better than 1% linearity 
at 5 KHz (Linearity would be a lot better at 100 Hz)

Design is Fast OPTO --> pullup --> 4000 series CMOS gate for precise rail to 
rail PWM (OPTO is not) and CMOS has equal impedance both directions --> 2 pole 
filter --> THS4281 follower


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 15:57:25 Philipp Burch did opine:

> Hi Gene!
> 
> On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings again;
> > 
> > After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems
> > to have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking
> > like a 4th one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance
> > in the 100k region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100
> > rpm when I put a 10 megohm digital meter on its output to measure it,
> > and getting a hair over 5 volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in
> > the output voltage follower stage acts exactly like the one I pulled
> > out thinking it was bad.
> > 
> > So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> > another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do
> > I fire up eagle & design my own?
> > 
> > The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it
> > needs to fit in by about an inch both ways.
> > 
> > Anybody else got any suggestions?
> > 
> > Thanks guys.
> 
> Do you talk about this unit?
> 
> http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C41R2_USER_MANUAL.pdf

I have the R1 version.
 
> I think it should be fairly easy to reverse-engineer the schematic of
> this little thingy, as there are only through-hole components and (as it
> looks like) just a single copper layer.
I thought I had saved one of the blown ones, which would make it easier to 
see is my mods to that one were less invasive of pcb real estate, but I 
can't find it, so I must have binned it last fall.
 
> But your comment about the LM358 in conjunction with the problem that
> you cannot go below ~200mV output voltage caught my attention: The
> LM358's output stage does not really sink current down to GND, so if the
> input of your following circuit does not have a pull down,

I don't believe it does,

> it is likely
> that this amplifier is the cause of the problem. If so, you could simply
> replace it by a RRIO (rail-to-rail input and output) type, most standard
> opamps are pin compatible. If 16V max. Vcc are enough, the TLV2372 could
> be a suitable replacement. There should be many more to suit your needs,
> a quick parametric search yields at least three parts which should fit
> as well:
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/amplifiers-linear/operational-amplifier-op-amp
> -products.page#p78=In;Out&p1261max=32;36V;36&p480=2;2&p10max=0.02;10
> 0&p2954=PDIP

That OPA2241 looks like just the ticket. 3 ea samples ordered. :)

> Cheers,
> Philipp

Thanks for the legwork Philip, your google foo is better than mine as my FF 
is busted & I had to finish the order with chromium.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Philipp Burch]

Hi Gene!

On 03/14/2014 09:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings again;
> 
> After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems to 
> have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking like a 4th 
> one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in the 100k 
> region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10 
> megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and getting a hair over 5 
> volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower 
> stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
> 
> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be 
> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do I 
> fire up eagle & design my own?
> 
> The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it needs 
> to fit in by about an inch both ways.
> 
> Anybody else got any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks guys.

Do you talk about this unit?

http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C41R2_USER_MANUAL.pdf

I think it should be fairly easy to reverse-engineer the schematic of
this little thingy, as there are only through-hole components and (as it
looks like) just a single copper layer.

But your comment about the LM358 in conjunction with the problem that
you cannot go below ~200mV output voltage caught my attention: The
LM358's output stage does not really sink current down to GND, so if the
input of your following circuit does not have a pull down, it is likely
that this amplifier is the cause of the problem. If so, you could simply
replace it by a RRIO (rail-to-rail input and output) type, most standard
opamps are pin compatible. If 16V max. Vcc are enough, the TLV2372 could
be a suitable replacement. There should be many more to suit your needs,
a quick parametric search yields at least three parts which should fit
as well:

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/amplifiers-linear/operational-amplifier-op-amp-products.page#p78=In;Out&p1261max=32;36V;36&p480=2;2&p10max=0.02;100&p2954=PDIP

Cheers,
Philipp



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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 14:33:33 Gene Heskett did opine:

> On Saturday 15 March 2014 06:42:37 Steve Blackmore did opine:
> > On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:23:33 -0400, you wrote:
> > >Greetings again;
> > >
> > >After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41
> > >seems to have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its
> > >looking like a 4th one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output
> > >impedance in the 100k region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping
> > >nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10 megohm digital meter on its output to
> > >measure it, and getting a hair over 5 volts for my trouble, and a
> > >fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower stage acts exactly like
> > >the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
> > 
> > Very odd - have you spoken to Arturo or emailed him?
> > 
> > Steve Blackmore
> 
> Not recently Steve.  He has the attitude that if I modify it, I'm on my
> own.  Said in one of his responses that it was made to run with a pwmgen
> max frequency of 5hz! 2 or 3 requests for a schematic have been ignored
> in any replies I have received from Arturo.
> 
> The mods I've made serve to speed up the response considerably as its so
> slow out of the bag that a PID controller in front of it just sits there
> and goes rail to rail at about 2 hz at Pgains above 5.  With the mods,
> its stable at Pgain=40 giving fairly stiff control above 300 rpm.
> 
> Because he is so unresponsive, I have not attempted to email him about
> this.
> 
> I figure if he cared, he would be monitoring the list, but apparently
> LinuxCNC does not represent enough of his market to be worth it.  His
> loss IMO.  I've been effectively been thrown under the bus, so I no
> longer care. If I can find something else, so much the better.
> 
> In the meantime I'll continue to troubleshoot it, but it would be many
> times easier to do IF I had a schematic.
> 
> Cheers, Gene

Ps, went to his site, found docs on a new version of it with 2 features, 
1st being an input terminal for the high end of the pot its replacing, 
something this one does not have, labeled 12 to 24 volts and the note that 
its now designed for a 100hz pwm signal.  But when you goto the order 
pages, its not listed, so you still can't buy it.  And according to the 
curves, its 1% linear now IF you ignore its minimum output voltage of 
around 200 millivolts, not low enough to reset the Gemini controller 
reliably.  Not noted is if that means the 5 volt 300ma input is now ground 
common to the logic ground.  It is not on V1.1 boards, thats all hot to the 
powerline from the controller.  So I have quite a bit of exposed hardware 
in my box thats hotter than that famous little red wagon.  Of, and the 
price has gone up a few bucks.  TBE, but sure wish my SS COLA matched it.
:(

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 06:42:37 Steve Blackmore did opine:

> On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:23:33 -0400, you wrote:
> >Greetings again;
> >
> >After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems
> >to have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking
> >like a 4th one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in
> >the 100k region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm
> >when I put a 10 megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and
> >getting a hair over 5 volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the
> >output voltage follower stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out
> >thinking it was bad.
> 
> Very odd - have you spoken to Arturo or emailed him?
> 
> Steve Blackmore

Not recently Steve.  He has the attitude that if I modify it, I'm on my 
own.  Said in one of his responses that it was made to run with a pwmgen 
max frequency of 5hz! 2 or 3 requests for a schematic have been ignored in 
any replies I have received from Arturo.

The mods I've made serve to speed up the response considerably as its so 
slow out of the bag that a PID controller in front of it just sits there 
and goes rail to rail at about 2 hz at Pgains above 5.  With the mods, its 
stable at Pgain=40 giving fairly stiff control above 300 rpm.

Because he is so unresponsive, I have not attempted to email him about 
this.

I figure if he cared, he would be monitoring the list, but apparently 
LinuxCNC does not represent enough of his market to be worth it.  His loss 
IMO.  I've been effectively been thrown under the bus, so I no longer care.  
If I can find something else, so much the better.

In the meantime I'll continue to troubleshoot it, but it would be many 
times easier to do IF I had a schematic.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Steve Blackmore]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:23:33 -0400, you wrote:

>Greetings again;
>
>After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems to 
>have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking like a 4th 
>one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in the 100k 
>region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10 
>megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and getting a hair over 5 
>volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower 
>stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.

Very odd - have you spoken to Arturo or emailed him?

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 15 March 2014 01:25:47 Peter Homann did opine:

> Hi Gene,
> 
> Not sure where you get the $80 rip-off from?

Around 13-14 years ago (before I became aware of emc) Futurlec had a good 
deal on some pci boards with 3 82C55's on each one that I thought would be 
good for machine controlling duties. Something in the $39 USD a copy, said 
to be USD on their web site, so I bought 3 of them.  By the time the 
charges got to my card, they were 80 USD each or about $240 on my card.  
Emails to futurlec about it were never graced with an answer.  The cd with 
drivers turned out to be source code in visual basic, worthless to a linux 
guy who doesn't bother to keep his wine install, if I have installed it, up 
to date.  Understandably I've been a bit spooky since.

> You can select to see the prices in US$ by setting the currency to US$
> in the top right had side of the front page of my site.
> 
> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/
> 
I think it must be the default, it is showing me USD.

> 1. The DC-03 has an optional DC/DC converter that generates a 15Vdc
> supply that is isolated from the 5V logic supply. The Logic circuitry
> is isolated from the "analog" circuity that is generating the control
> voltage.
> 
> If you can get the 10-15V supply for the analog circuitry from your
> spindle controller you don't need the DC/DC converter.

I also have a 15.5 volt supply that I feed the isolated stuff from.  But 
the C41 gets its needed 5 volts from that input with a 7805 on one corner, 
which runs fairly warm.  Essentially everything in the logic runs isolated, 
with the 2 inputs from the breakout board driving the opto-isolators 
direct, eg no logic runs at earth ground on that C41 board.
> 
> The logic circuity is referenced to the breakout board logic supply and
> is not referenced from it.
> 
> 2. The converter can supply a maximum of 60mA at 70% efficiency. 10mA is
> typical.
> 
> Relay Coil current is 21mA each. Another 10-15mA for the rest of the
> board.
> 
> 3. The 2 relays are controlled independently of the PWM signal. The set
> and release times for the relays are 3mS maximum.

That means I'd need another logic signal.  With the existing C41, the relay 
for run/stop, is driven by detecting the PWM presence, so all I need is the 
PWM and REV signals.  I'll have to check as I an not positive I have 
another unused signal line on the C1G since I am using the probe input as a 
homing signal with some hal trickery, and 3 other lines are taken up by the 
spindle encoders A/B/X lines.  Those set/release times are great though. I 
could probably hack up a timer (10 ms retriggerable one shot) to run the 
run/stop relay input so that doesn't rule it out, just makes it more 
complex.  My .hal file is close to 300 lines to run this 7x12 now.  But I 
do have to have both relays active because when they're off, that brings in 
the dynamic braking so I can use a G33.1 cycle as a "peck tap" driving it 
another half a turn per peck. And because that braking is controlled by a 
wcomp hal module, it uses 2 I/O lines to stage the braking r's depending on 
the spindle's instant rpm as its slowing.  The stopped condition so I can 
clock the reverse or forward on thru to the output is also detected in the 
hal file so lcnc can go straight from forward to reverse and back to 
forward without hammering the motor controller by waiting till its within a 
few degrees of stopped before doing the direction reversal.  The braking 
R's do get warm.  And that goes a long ways toward explaining why the hal 
file is nearly 300 lines. :)

Humm, thinking out loud, the PWM signal from the C1G can source or sink 
24ma.  Could I sense the PWM with a diode and recover enough to run the 
run/stop relay?  That would be quite simple with a .2 uf paper to bridge 
the off times in the duty cycle of the PWM.

Would that be feasible?

> Cheers,
> 
> Peter
> 
> On 15/03/2014 3:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 14 March 2014 23:53:24 Peter Homann did opine:
> >> Hi Gene,
> >> 
> >> Have a look at the DC-03 Digispeed that I design and sell. It
> >> converts a PWM signal into an isolated control voltage, and has
> >> quite small form factor.
> >> 
> >> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&c
> >> Pat h=1&products_id=21
> > 
> > 3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD
> > to USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).
> > 
> > 1. I read it that it has a builtin charge pump to make the 15 volt
> > isolated supply from the 5 volt input, and that the 5 volt supply
> > isn't isolated, only the 15 volt and associated circuitry.  Correct?
> > 
> > 2. In that case, how much power does it need from the 5 volt line when
> > that 15 volt generating charge pump is running?
> > 
> > I can get 5 volts from the C1G breakout but that is fed from a lm317
> > bolted to the box the drivers & motor supplies are in.  A relatively
> > massive heat sink, but gets up to about 115-120F on a warm

Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

Not sure where you get the $80 rip-off from?

You can select to see the prices in US$ by setting the currency to US$ in the 
top right had side of the front page of my site.

http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/

1. The DC-03 has an optional DC/DC converter that generates a 15Vdc supply 
that is isolated from the 5V logic supply. The Logic circuitry is isolated 
from the "analog" circuity that is generating the control voltage.

If you can get the 10-15V supply for the analog circuitry from your spindle 
controller you don't need the DC/DC converter.

The logic circuity is referenced to the breakout board logic supply and is not 
referenced from it.

2. The converter can supply a maximum of 60mA at 70% efficiency. 10mA is 
typical.

Relay Coil current is 21mA each. Another 10-15mA for the rest of the board.

3. The 2 relays are controlled independently of the PWM signal. The set and 
release times for the relays are 3mS maximum.

Cheers,

Peter


On 15/03/2014 3:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 14 March 2014 23:53:24 Peter Homann did opine:
>
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> Have a look at the DC-03 Digispeed that I design and sell. It converts a
>> PWM signal into an isolated control voltage, and has quite small form
>> factor.
>>
>> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
>> h=1&products_id=21
>
> 3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to
> USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).
>
> 1. I read it that it has a builtin charge pump to make the 15 volt isolated
> supply from the 5 volt input, and that the 5 volt supply isn't isolated,
> only the 15 volt and associated circuitry.  Correct?
>
> 2. In that case, how much power does it need from the 5 volt line when that
> 15 volt generating charge pump is running?
>
> I can get 5 volts from the C1G breakout but that is fed from a lm317 bolted
> to the box the drivers & motor supplies are in.  A relatively massive heat
> sink, but gets up to about 115-120F on a warm day.  If your 5 volts needs
> 250 mills because its also running the relay coils, that will probably mean
> another LM317 will need to be provided.
>
> 3. One last Q since the drawings in the pdf do not say, nor does the text.
>
> That is, does the run-stop relay effectively operate by presence or absence
> of the PWM signal?  How much lag in that event?
>
> Thanks Peter.
>
> Basically trying to figure how best to make it a drop in for the C41, but
> one that works a heck of a lot better.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 14 March 2014 23:53:24 Peter Homann did opine:

> Hi Gene,
> 
> Have a look at the DC-03 Digispeed that I design and sell. It converts a
> PWM signal into an isolated control voltage, and has quite small form
> factor.
> 
> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
> h=1&products_id=21

3 concerns with the -03 Peter (besides the ripoff when converting AUD to 
USD, usually resulting in at least an $80 charge).

1. I read it that it has a builtin charge pump to make the 15 volt isolated 
supply from the 5 volt input, and that the 5 volt supply isn't isolated, 
only the 15 volt and associated circuitry.  Correct?

2. In that case, how much power does it need from the 5 volt line when that 
15 volt generating charge pump is running?

I can get 5 volts from the C1G breakout but that is fed from a lm317 bolted 
to the box the drivers & motor supplies are in.  A relatively massive heat 
sink, but gets up to about 115-120F on a warm day.  If your 5 volts needs 
250 mills because its also running the relay coils, that will probably mean 
another LM317 will need to be provided.

3. One last Q since the drawings in the pdf do not say, nor does the text.

That is, does the run-stop relay effectively operate by presence or absence 
of the PWM signal?  How much lag in that event?

Thanks Peter.

Basically trying to figure how best to make it a drop in for the C41, but 
one that works a heck of a lot better.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[andy pugh]

On 14 March 2014 23:19, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> That would be a tempting price, if it wasn't in AUD despite what the page 
> says,  how much is it in my USD?

www.xe.com says that $AU38 = $US34 = £25.5 = 0.0548362 Bitcoins

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 14 March 2014 19:17:49 Peter Homann did opine:

> Hi Gene,
> 
> Have a look at the DC-03 Digispeed that I design and sell. It converts a
> PWM signal into an isolated control voltage, and has quite small form
> factor.
> 
> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
> h=1&products_id=21
> 
That would be a tempting price, if it wasn't in AUD despite what the page 
says,  how much is it in my USD?
 
> If your PWM signal has a base frequency of 1K or above, have a look t
> the DC-05 digiSpeed
> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPat
> h=1&products_id=38
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter
> 
> On 15/03/2014 7:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings again;
> > 
> > After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems
> > to have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking
> > like a 4th one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance
> > in the 100k region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100
> > rpm when I put a 10 megohm digital meter on its output to measure it,
> > and getting a hair over 5 volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in
> > the output voltage follower stage acts exactly like the one I pulled
> > out thinking it was bad.
> > 
> > So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> > another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do
> > I fire up eagle & design my own?
> > 
> > The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it
> > needs to fit in by about an inch both ways.
> > 
> > Anybody else got any suggestions?
> > 
> > Thanks guys.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> 
> -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
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> Emc-users mailing list
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

Have a look at the DC-03 Digispeed that I design and sell. It converts a PWM 
signal into an isolated control voltage, and has quite small form factor.

http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=21

If your PWM signal has a base frequency of 1K or above, have a look t the 
DC-05 digiSpeed
http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=38

Cheers,

Peter

On 15/03/2014 7:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings again;
>
> After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems to
> have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking like a 4th
> one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in the 100k
> region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10
> megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and getting a hair over 5
> volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower
> stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
>
> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do I
> fire up eagle & design my own?
>
> The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it needs
> to fit in by about an inch both ways.
>
> Anybody else got any suggestions?
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>

--
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Re: [Emc-users] I&$@)^ another C41 gone to hell.

[Pete Matos]

Yup..MESANET... LOL.

Pete



On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings again;
>
> After putting in a diode, that part seemed to work, but this C41 seems to
> have gone south again. (and again (and again)), and its looking like a 4th
> one has failed.  Symptoms seem to be an output impedance in the 100k
> region, making 375 rpm maximum, and dropping nearly 100 rpm when I put a 10
> megohm digital meter on its output to measure it, and getting a hair over 5
> volts for my trouble, and a fresh LM358 in the output voltage follower
> stage acts exactly like the one I pulled out thinking it was bad.
>
> So it looks like I need another, but it seems to me there ought to be
> another choice besides this non-linear POS, and the PMDX-106.  Or, do I
> fire up eagle & design my own?
>
> The PMDX-106 works great, but its physically too big for the area it needs
> to fit in by about an inch both ways.
>
> Anybody else got any suggestions?
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> Cheers, Gene
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> --
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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