subject:"Re\: \[E\-devel\] \[e\-users\] Is there \*real\* documentation for edje\?"

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com
said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had swallow
stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically - just with
objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc
build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the old
pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the matter,
like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to use -
this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed him for a day.
teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. i'm pointing to the
docs so he can keep looking around and refer to them for more questions
etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in directly
and concisely answering their questions - that way not only do they address
the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it easier to write clear
documentation as they go along writing code and even then, no single
wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no explanation
is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never even found
yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs port of call
imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different matter

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52749964d20e3195d1a40st02duc

--
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-02 Thread Robert Heller

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com
said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had swallow
stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically - just with
objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc
build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the old
pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the matter,
like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to use -
this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed him for a
day.
teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. i'm pointing to the
docs so he can keep looking around and refer to them for more questions
etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in directly
and concisely answering their questions - that way not only do they address
the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it easier to write clear
documentation as they go along writing code and even then, no single
wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no explanation
is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never even found
yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs port of call
imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than anything I
founf in the docs.

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52749964d20e3195d1a40st02duc

--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

--
Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that
developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
paper to learn more about

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically -
just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc
build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the
old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the matter,
like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to use -
this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed him for a
day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. i'm pointing
to the docs so he can keep looking around and refer to them for more
questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in directly
and concisely answering their questions - that way not only do they
address the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it easier to
write clear documentation as they go along writing code and even
then, no single wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no explanation
is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never even
found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs port
of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than anything I
founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell you what a
swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that api says
that. :)

An edje object is a particular kind of container evas object
(also called evas smart objects). In the edc description, an edje
object is defined as a 'group'.
As a container object, it has child objects and these are declared
in the edc as various kinds of 'parts' within that group. There are
parts like 'rectangle' and 'image', for example, which are of known
type. But an edje can also have child evas objs of any sort by
declaring 'swallow' parts in its edc. The 'swallow' C-api is what then
enables you to programatically add an arbitrary evas object (that
you've obtained somehow) as a child of the edje so as to 'fill'
whatever declared swallow part.

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat
storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52749964d20e3195d1a40st02duc

--
Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform
that developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download
this white paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that
can help keep Android apps secure.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
enlightenment-devel mailing list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel

--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-02 Thread Robert Heller

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what
a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically -
just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc
build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the
old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather
than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the
matter,
like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to
use -
this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed him for a
day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. i'm pointing
to the docs so he can keep looking around and refer to them for more
questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in
directly
and concisely answering their questions - that way not only do they
address the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it easier to
write clear documentation as they go along writing code and even
then, no single wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no
explanation
is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never even
found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs port
of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than anything I
founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell you what a
swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that api says
that. :)

The only thing in the PDF doc were a couple of *examples* and no real
explaination of what it all *means*. The examples alone is not enough (for
me). There wasn't any API docs in the PDF at all. I did:

make doc
cd doc
make refman.pdf
xpdf refman.pdf

I *expected* some sort of useful explaination, but it was not there.

I thought that my original message was clear that I found the docs I found
were not useful.

An edje object is a particular kind of container evas object
(also called evas smart objects). In the edc description, an edje
object is defined as a 'group'.
As a container object, it has child objects and these are
declared
in the edc as various kinds of 'parts' within that group. There are
parts like 'rectangle' and 'image', for example, which are of known
type. But an edje can also have child evas objs of any sort by
declaring 'swallow' parts in its edc. The 'swallow' C-api is what
then
enables you to programatically add an arbitrary evas object (that
you've obtained somehow) as a child of the edje so as to 'fill'
whatever declared swallow part.

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat
storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52749964d20e3195d1a40st02duc

--
Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform
that

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains
what a swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing
basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly
doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is
the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or
something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather
than beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of
the matter, like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to
use - this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed
him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep looking around and refer
to them for more questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in
directly and concisely answering their questions - that way not only
do they address the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it
easier to write clear documentation as they go along writing code
and even then, no single wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no
explanation is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth
explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never even
found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs
port of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different
matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than anything I
founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell you what a
swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that api says
that. :)

The only thing in the PDF doc were a couple of *examples* and no real
explaination of what it all *means*. The examples alone is not enough (for
me). There wasn't any API docs in the PDF at all. I did:

make doc
cd doc
make refman.pdf
xpdf refman.pdf

I *expected* some sort of useful explaination, but it was not there.

I thought that my original message was clear that I found the docs I found
were not useful.

the docs i pointed to - the html ones that we actually look at once we write
docs, and put on line did explain. we DONT put pdf docs online. we don't look
at them or check. i know there are issues with doxygen +latex and thus the pdf
stuff wont work right.

putting edje swallow into google for me brings up a lot of refs.. #3 is the
page with the api ref that tells you what a swallow is.

my point here is - you do not like/want to use html docs. you must have pdf
ones printed. alas that doesn't work with doxygen and there is a lot of work
for us to do. :) after all the effort to document things etc. and all this
discussion on how bad the docs are, this kind of mail doesn't encourage docs
to be worked on if they are not used. :( it's a lot of work to write them. it's
a sheer wast of time to write docs that are not used when they are plainly
available, trivially searchable etc. etc. :( yes - i know they can be better,
but i really ask as kindly as i can - use the docs we have already. if your
preferred way to read docs is to print them out then... read - you'll find it
basically impossible. search tools - be they grep or google are going ot get
you the info you want 100 times

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-02 Thread Robert Heller

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 23:36:23 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains
what a swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing
basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly
doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you
now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is
the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or
something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather
than beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of
the matter, like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to
use - this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed
him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a
lifetime.
i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep looking around and refer
to them for more questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't
necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice in
directly and concisely answering their questions - that way not only
do they address the particular issue at hand but also maybe find it
easier to write clear documentation as they go along writing
code
and even then, no single wording will ever be clear to everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no
explanation is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth
explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question never
even
found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the firs
port of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a different
matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than anything
I
founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell you
what a
swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that api says
that. :)

The only thing in the PDF doc were a couple of *examples* and no real
explaination of what it all *means*. The examples alone is not enough (for
me). There wasn't any API docs in the PDF at all. I did:

make doc
cd doc
make refman.pdf
xpdf refman.pdf

I *expected* some sort of useful explaination, but it was not there.

I thought that my original message was clear that I found the docs I found
were not useful.

the docs i pointed to - the html ones that we actually look at once we write
docs, and put on line did explain. we DONT put pdf docs online. we don't look
at them or check. i know there are issues with doxygen +latex and thus the pdf
stuff wont work right.

putting edje swallow into google for me brings up a lot of refs.. #3 is the
page with the api ref that tells you what a swallow is.

my point here is - you do not like/want to use html docs. you must have pdf
ones printed. alas that doesn't work with doxygen and there is a lot of work

It *DOES* work with doxygen -- I do it all the time with *my* code (see:
http://www.deepsoft.com/modelrailroadsystem/).

for us to do. :) after all the effort to document things etc. and all this
discussion on how bad the docs are, this kind of mail doesn't encourage docs
to be worked on if they are not used. :( it's a lot of work to write them.
it's
a sheer wast of time

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-02 Thread Andrew F

guys, these points are valid on both sides.

I think one critical point that has not been looked at is what we want to
accomplish with E.
Obviously we want to encourage more developers. So why not help developers
get started with E.

We could answer their questions directly and provide a source in the docs
if we have know it. That would be the best of both points of view.
We could also give some narrative as to some key concepts around the
topic. If we can help developers get rolling with E, then
they will have the momentum to carry on without ongoing assistance.

But initially, lets help them get up to speed.

Robert is taking on a big challenge, lets not brush him off or suggest to a
veteran of 20+ years how he should learn.. or how he
should read docs. I think he knows what he is best for him.

Lets give detailed assistance and give a reference in the docs if its
available and known, and if you want brownie points, offer
some narrative to tie it all together if appropriate.

Thats the way I see it.

I do appreciate all the time and comments on this thread. Clearly this is
a strong group of
programmers that are passionate about the technology and E.

Andrew

On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com wrote:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 23:36:23 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that
explains
what a swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days -
it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing
basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto
nightly
doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do
you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And
where is
the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook
or
something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing
rather
than beat around the bush... Something short but to the
heart of
the matter, like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its
impossible to
use - this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish -
you feed
him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a
lifetime.
i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep looking around and
refer
to them for more questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't
necessarily
idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice
in
directly and concisely answering their questions - that way
not only
do they address the particular issue at hand but also maybe
find it
easier to write clear documentation as they go along writing
code
and even then, no single wording will ever be clear to
everyone.
Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no
explanation is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth
explaining again.

given this thread... it appears the original poster/question
never even
found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the
firs
port of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a
different
matter

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than
anything I
founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell
you what a
swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that
api says
that. :)

The only thing in the PDF doc were a couple of *examples* and no real
explaination of what it all *means*. The

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-02 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

Em Dom, 2013-11-03 às 00:36 +, Andrew F escreveu:

 Lets give detailed assistance and give a reference in the docs if its
 available and known, and if you want brownie points, offer
 some narrative to tie it all together if appropriate.


Give detailed assistance and give reference is redundant work. If some E
developer has free time and is willing to help a user with problems,
then it could improve (just enough to help the user) the related docs
and point the user to the updated docs. This way, he only will invest
time for one thing (doc/ref) instead of two (doc/ref and user).

But this suggestion won't work for everything, of course.


-- 
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
https://about.me/vinipsmaker


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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 11:03:28 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 23:36:23 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains
what a swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it
had swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing
basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto
nightly doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you
now want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where
is the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook
or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing
rather than beat around the bush... Something short but to the
heart of the matter, like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible
to use - this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish -
you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him
for a lifetime. i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep
looking around and refer to them for more questions etc.

That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't
necessarily idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more
practice in directly and concisely answering their questions -
that way not only do they address the particular issue at hand
but also maybe find it easier to write clear documentation as
they go along writing code and even then, no single wording
will ever be clear to everyone. Remember another cliche: If a
thing is truly clear then no explanation is ever needed. And if
it's not, then it's worth explaining again.

The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than
anything I founf in the docs.

but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell you
what a swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc.
that api says that. :)

make doc
cd doc
make refman.pdf
xpdf refman.pdf

I *expected* some sort of useful explaination, but it was not there.

I thought that my original message was clear that I found the docs I
found were not useful.

the docs i pointed to - the html ones that we actually look at once we write
docs, and put on line did explain. we DONT put pdf docs online. we don't
look at them or check. i know there are issues with doxygen +latex and thus
the pdf stuff wont work right.

putting edje swallow into google for me brings up a lot of refs.. #3 is
the page with the api ref that tells you what a swallow is.

my point here is - you do not like/want to use html docs. you must have pdf
ones printed. alas that doesn't work with doxygen and there is a lot of work

It *DOES* work with doxygen -- I do it all the time with *my* code (see:
http://www.deepsoft.com/modelrailroadsystem/).

it doesn't work for us. the tex won't compile to pdf. can't even make a dvi.
latex is most unhappy. (a series of sty files

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 00:36:15 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

guys, these points are valid on both sides.

I think one critical point that has not been looked at is what we want to
accomplish with E.
Obviously we want to encourage more developers. So why not help developers
get started with E.

we have tried. jeremy answered early on. i didn't see a need to repeat it. i
pointed to the docs we have.

the issue is the docs are being rejected because of the users slow internet
connection. it's rather annoying to be told that you have no docs or your
docs suck when the docs that have had 1000's of man hours spent on are being
rejected because of this.

now i understand the problem of having a modem - mind you having to download
and deal with efl over a modem must be hell in and of itself. :) but there are
solutions:

make doc

you can make docs locally and have all the html - grep/search it there yourself.

you can still use google. a modem doesn't stop that. it may be slower, but it
works and still is vastly faster than printed paper. i do remember the days of
being on a 28.8k modem. it worked and i would use altavista at the time to
search for documentation on the web... it was not impossible.

But initially, lets help them get up to speed.

Robert is taking on a big challenge, lets not brush him off or suggest to a
veteran of 20+ years how he should learn.. or how he
should read docs. I think he knows what he is best for him.

by the same token - brushing off the effort already made as above is even
worse. someone has ALREADY invested, 100's or even 1000's of hours of their
time on documentation just because the consumer will not use all the
documentation already made available.

Lets give detailed assistance and give a reference in the docs if its
available and known, and if you want brownie points, offer
some narrative to tie it all together if appropriate.

Thats the way I see it.

I do appreciate all the time and comments on this thread. Clearly this is
a strong group of
programmers that are passionate about the technology and E.

Andrew

On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com wrote:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 23:36:23 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com
said:

At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez
jose_...@juno.com
said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F
andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that
explains
what a swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days -
it had
swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing
basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto
nightly
doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do
you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And
where is
the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook
or
something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing
rather
than beat around the bush... Something short but to the
heart of
the matter, like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its
impossible to
use - this is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish -
you feed
him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a
lifetime.
i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-01 Thread Jose Gonzalez

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had swallow
stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically - just with
objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the old
pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the matter,
like say:

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52737b99609147b905dc2st02duc

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-11-01 Thread The Rasterman

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez jose_...@juno.com said:

Carsten wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com
said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had swallow
stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically - just with
objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc build).

Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do you now
want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :)
Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And where is the old
pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook or something)?

Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing rather than
beat around the bush... Something short but to the heart of the matter,
like say:

because of the comments that efl has no docs so its impossible to use - this
is undocumented anywhere. give a man a fish - you feed him for a day. teach a
man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. i'm pointing to the docs so he can
keep looking around and refer to them for more questions etc.

Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And improved
Exchange server? And .. :)

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52737b99609147b905dc2st02duc

--
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread The Rasterman

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:02:04 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

 Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 08:51 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
  i know. i spent some of my early life on unix/linux paying large sums
  for
  o'reilly books. and reading them cover to cover. they had diagrams. i
  frankly
  far prefer raw simple code over those books. the code is digestible in
  a
  fraction of the time. :) if i have an actual working bit of code i can
  compile
  it, run it and then modify it to see how it wobbles when poked. poke a
  bit more
  and see some more wobbling. these wobbles tell me the story of how
  CHANGES to
  the example affect the behaviour. start small with small changes and
  see. :) a
  book doesn't give me that. english words don't give me that. code
  does. :) but
  that is my style - i know that within all fields of education
  including foreign
  languages, math, science, etc. etc. i always gravitated to learn by
  example.
  i naturally break up the examples into their constituent parts and
  know how to
  manipulate them - the pattern builds over time naturally.
 
 
 Code is interactive. School and all non-interactive shit is difficult
 and pain to learn (at least for me and for you).
 
 But... I wonder how you avoid undefined behaviour code that can break in
 the next release of the lib/compiler or in the second compiler/platform.

experience teaches... and of course reading docs/references.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
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Android apps secure.
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread Andrew F

enlightenment desktop is getting a lot of attention with e17.  Good Speed,
good looks, and great features.
 Maybe its time we step back and look at where we are going and what that
means.  If Enlightenment is going big time, we are going to have more
qualified programmers join the project and they deserve to have decent
documentation.  After all, why should we make it harder for them to get up
to speed.  If they are joining the project, lets make it as easy as
possible.

S
strong
documentation to strengthen the project.
P
erhaps we can brake the information up into logical chapters and have
different people or teams of people write specific chapters.

Look at QT, they are getting huge and their documentation is exceptional.
Its easy for developers to get up to speed.Their success is directly
related to how easy it is to learn to program QT.
I think we should follow that model to help e17 grow even faster.

We need an editor to outline the document, create the table of contents and
manage volunteers who will write the individual chapters.

Who has the knowledge of e17 to do this?


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.comwrote:

 On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:02:04 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
 vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

  Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 08:51 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
   i know. i spent some of my early life on unix/linux paying large sums
   for
   o'reilly books. and reading them cover to cover. they had diagrams. i
   frankly
   far prefer raw simple code over those books. the code is digestible in
   a
   fraction of the time. :) if i have an actual working bit of code i can
   compile
   it, run it and then modify it to see how it wobbles when poked. poke a
   bit more
   and see some more wobbling. these wobbles tell me the story of how
   CHANGES to
   the example affect the behaviour. start small with small changes and
   see. :) a
   book doesn't give me that. english words don't give me that. code
   does. :) but
   that is my style - i know that within all fields of education
   including foreign
   languages, math, science, etc. etc. i always gravitated to learn by
   example.
   i naturally break up the examples into their constituent parts and
   know how to
   manipulate them - the pattern builds over time naturally.
 
 
  Code is interactive. School and all non-interactive shit is difficult
  and pain to learn (at least for me and for you).
 
  But... I wonder how you avoid undefined behaviour code that can break in
  the next release of the lib/compiler or in the second compiler/platform.

 experience teaches... and of course reading docs/references.

 --
 - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
 The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com



 --
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 developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
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 Android apps secure.
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread Andrew F

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.comwrote:

 enlightenment desktop is getting a lot of attention with e17.  Good Speed,
 good looks, and great features.
  Maybe its time we step back and look at where we are going and what that
 means.  If Enlightenment is going big time, we are going to have more
 qualified programmers join the project and they deserve to have decent
 documentation.  After all, why should we make it harder for them to get up
 to speed.  If they are joining the project, lets make it as easy as
 possible.

 S
 strong
 documentation to strengthen the project.
 P
 erhaps we can brake the information up into logical chapters and have
 different people or teams of people write specific chapters.

 Look at QT, they are getting huge and their documentation is exceptional.
 Its easy for developers to get up to speed.Their success is directly
 related to how easy it is to learn to program QT.
 I think we should follow that model to help e17 grow even faster.

 We need an editor to outline the document, create the table of contents
 and manage volunteers who will write the individual chapters.

 Who has the knowledge of e17 to do this?


 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.comwrote:

 On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:02:04 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
 vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

  Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 08:51 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
   i know. i spent some of my early life on unix/linux paying large sums
   for
   o'reilly books. and reading them cover to cover. they had diagrams. i
   frankly
   far prefer raw simple code over those books. the code is digestible in
   a
   fraction of the time. :) if i have an actual working bit of code i can
   compile
   it, run it and then modify it to see how it wobbles when poked. poke a
   bit more
   and see some more wobbling. these wobbles tell me the story of how
   CHANGES to
   the example affect the behaviour. start small with small changes and
   see. :) a
   book doesn't give me that. english words don't give me that. code
   does. :) but
   that is my style - i know that within all fields of education
   including foreign
   languages, math, science, etc. etc. i always gravitated to learn by
   example.
   i naturally break up the examples into their constituent parts and
   know how to
   manipulate them - the pattern builds over time naturally.
 
 
  Code is interactive. School and all non-interactive shit is difficult
  and pain to learn (at least for me and for you).
 
  But... I wonder how you avoid undefined behaviour code that can break in
  the next release of the lib/compiler or in the second compiler/platform.

 experience teaches... and of course reading docs/references.

 --
 - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
 The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com



 --
 Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform
 that
 developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this
 white
 paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
 Android apps secure.

 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 enlightenment-devel mailing list
 enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel



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paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
Android apps secure.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread The Rasterman

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:22:04 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

there is no chance we can compete with qt docs. not on the coldest day in hell
will it freeze over. qt literally has a whole pile of DEDICATED documentation
people paid fulltime... and have been paid fulltime for many years. we have
zero.

doing documentation for us means NOT adding features developers need/want. it
means not optimizing things to be faster that developers want (and that
competing toolkits keep doing too). it means not reviewing patches that come
in. it means not fixing bugs that exist. it basically means not doing code. it's
a choice of using an existing resource for something else.

let me give you an example on how much work it takes to do docs.

http://git.enlightenment.org/core/elementary.git/commit/?id=37fe9cc77144fe42e054a082ed58a4c52a961d35

specifically look at the docs i wrote in the header. those very basic docs took
about as long to write as the code itself. writing docs is a time-consuming
effort. going beyond the docs i wrote there to write up a dialog on the
reasoning for those api's, several examples, and so on will blow out the time
needed even more. it's all a matter of time. unless we get a massive community
effort behind writing lots of documentation we're not going to go very far and
the code will be the thing that suffers.

to say that efl is not documented is wrong.

http://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=docs

saying that it could be better - sure. but how much effort for how much gain?
just talking efl here. not e17/18 internal code and other apps. my current
count for api's in efl + elm is 6350 or so. that's NOT including all the enums,
structs etc. so let's make that an even 7000 if we throw all of those in shall
we?. good documentation might average 2 pages of printed text per api (7000).
that means not just the description and prototype but also reasoning, usage
examples, diagrams, etc. so that's 14000 pages of documentation. that's 114
copies of war and peace. by all accounts it took tolstoy about 6 years to write
it. that would mean we need 684 MAN YEARS of effort to write up what people see
as good documentation for efl in its current state. so let's say we want to
get this done... we need about $54 million to hire all the writers... :)

and that's just documenting all the elements of efl (api's) - it's not writing
all the introductions, overviews and associated docs that glue these together.
so let's round that up to 800 man years then. that's $64 millon... (assuming
average salary of a writer would be $80k/year including all overheads).

just saying... it's a LOT of work... and it's not cheap. this simply can't be
done without a majorly large lump of money or a massively distributed community
effort.

enlightenment desktop is getting a lot of attention with e17. Good Speed,
good looks, and great features.
Maybe its time we step back and look at where we are going and what that
means. If Enlightenment is going big time, we are going to have more
qualified programmers join the project and they deserve to have decent
documentation. After all, why should we make it harder for them to get up
to speed. If they are joining the project, lets make it as easy as
possible.

S
strong
documentation to strengthen the project.
P
erhaps we can brake the information up into logical chapters and have
different people or teams of people write specific chapters.

Look at QT, they are getting huge and their documentation is exceptional.
Its easy for developers to get up to speed.Their success is directly
related to how easy it is to learn to program QT.
I think we should follow that model to help e17 grow even faster.

We need an editor to outline the document, create the table of contents and
manage volunteers who will write the individual chapters.

Who has the knowledge of e17 to do this?

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.comwrote:

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:02:04 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 08:51 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:

i know. i spent some of my early life on unix/linux paying large sums
for
o'reilly books. and reading them cover to cover. they had diagrams. i
frankly
far prefer raw simple code over those books. the code is digestible in
a
fraction of the time. :) if i have an actual working bit of code i can
compile
it, run it and then modify it to see how it wobbles when poked. poke a
bit more
and see some more wobbling. these wobbles tell me the story of how
CHANGES to
the example affect the behaviour. start small with small changes and
see. :) a
book doesn't give me that. english words don't give me that. code
does. :) but
that is my style - i know that within all fields of education
including foreign
languages, math, science, etc. etc. i always gravitated to learn by

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread Cedric BAIL

On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:22:04 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com
said:
there is no chance we can compete with qt docs. not on the coldest day in hell
will it freeze over. qt literally has a whole pile of DEDICATED documentation
people paid fulltime... and have been paid fulltime for many years. we have
zero.

doing documentation for us means NOT adding features developers need/want. it
means not optimizing things to be faster that developers want (and that
competing toolkits keep doing too). it means not reviewing patches that come
in. it means not fixing bugs that exist. it basically means not doing code.
it's
a choice of using an existing resource for something else.

let me give you an example on how much work it takes to do docs.

http://git.enlightenment.org/core/elementary.git/commit/?id=37fe9cc77144fe42e054a082ed58a4c52a961d35

specifically look at the docs i wrote in the header. those very basic docs
took
about as long to write as the code itself. writing docs is a time-consuming
effort. going beyond the docs i wrote there to write up a dialog on the
reasoning for those api's, several examples, and so on will blow out the time
needed even more. it's all a matter of time. unless we get a massive community
effort behind writing lots of documentation we're not going to go very far and
the code will be the thing that suffers.

to say that efl is not documented is wrong.

http://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=docs

saying that it could be better - sure. but how much effort for how much gain?
just talking efl here. not e17/18 internal code and other apps. my current
count for api's in efl + elm is 6350 or so. that's NOT including all the
enums,
structs etc. so let's make that an even 7000 if we throw all of those in shall
we?. good documentation might average 2 pages of printed text per api
(7000).
that means not just the description and prototype but also reasoning, usage
examples, diagrams, etc. so that's 14000 pages of documentation. that's 114
copies of war and peace. by all accounts it took tolstoy about 6 years to
write
it. that would mean we need 684 MAN YEARS of effort to write up what people
see
as good documentation for efl in its current state. so let's say we want to
get this done... we need about $54 million to hire all the writers... :)

just saying... it's a LOT of work... and it's not cheap. this simply can't be
done without a majorly large lump of money or a massively distributed
community
effort.

Basically the only way to solve it is a community effort. It is
something beginners can take on and we will review there contribution.
It is something definitively valuable, but not something the small
team of core developers can take care of. So take this as a huge call
for contribution, where any help is welcomed !
--
Cedric BAIL

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-31 Thread The Rasterman

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 + Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.com said:

Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that explains what a
swallow is?
and how its used.
thanks

swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - it had swallow
stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing basically - just with objects.

didn't you see my link to the swallow docs?

https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271

its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto nightly doc build).

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Andrew F andrewfriedman...@gmail.comwrote:

S
strong
documentation to strengthen the project.
P
erhaps we can brake the information up into logical chapters and have
different people or teams of people write specific chapters.

We need an editor to outline the document, create the table of contents
and manage volunteers who will write the individual chapters.

Who has the knowledge of e17 to do this?

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Carsten Haitzler
ras...@rasterman.comwrote:

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:02:04 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 08:51 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:

Code is interactive. School and all non-interactive shit is difficult
and pain to learn (at least for me and for you).

But... I wonder how you avoid undefined behaviour code that can break in
the next release of the lib/compiler or in the second compiler/platform.

experience teaches... and of course reading docs/references.

--
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:47:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:

 At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:30:54 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
 
  
  On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:14:07 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:
  
   I am trying to write an alternitive version of the Enlightenment's 'start 
   menu', where instead of a cascade menu it is a three column thingy (I am
   not sure what this sort of menu is called), something like this (from
   Mint):
   
   ftp://ftp.deepsoft.com/ftp/pub/deepwoods/Other/RibbonMenu.png
  
  well that link doesn't work... no data. :)
 
 Wrong URL (bad copy-paste).  The correct URL is:
 
 ftp://ftp.deepsoft.com/pub/deepwoods/Other/RibbonMenu.png
 
  
   But I am having a hard time figuring out how to do this.  The
   documentation for edje leaves a lot to be desired and the API for
   enlightenment itself is pretty much not documented at all.  I am a
   skilled C programmer, but without useful documentation it is very hard to
   program...
  
  edje has a full reference. people have pointed to it already. there are
  intro docs all around. but like most things - the rest is look at examples
  and build from there. i personally find documentation obtuse and wasteful
  compared to examples. you may perfer wandering through docs. i spent my
  early unix learning years reading every manual page i could find - but
  frankly, reading someone elses shell scripts and then just referring to a
  manual for reference was by far easier and more productive..
 
 The PDF file generated from the LaTeX is only examples -- there isn't a 
 *reference*. I found the *examples* by themselves to be less than useful, 
 since there didn't seem to be a good *concept* reference.  At least in the
 PDF file I ended up with (make doc; cd doc/latex; make refman.pdf).
 
  
  now what i think your core problem here is, that you can't figure out how
  to do what you want.. because you literally can't do it in edje. you want to
  fundamentally change the behaviour and layout of a menu. not just re-shuffle
  some things, but change its core and that means you need to head off into
  the land of code. e_menu.c is where the entire menu code is. you wish to
  have similar functionality but different arrangement and that is a whole
  new kettle of fish. edje is merely a building-block to produce the gui
  elements you then lay out in code.
 
 I know all of that -- I am writting C code to implement the alternitive 
 functionallity, but it seems that I need some edje code  to go with it.

given what you want is still a menu you can re-use the existing edje
groups/parts for now until you have wrapped your head around edje. trust me -
it's not something a document will tell you or teach you. it's cold hard slog
and experience that will. :)


-- 
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:42:36 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) 
ras...@rasterman.com wrote:

 
 On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:47:23 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com said:
 
  At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:30:54 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
  ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
  
   
   On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:14:07 -0400 Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com 
   said:
   
I am trying to write an alternitive version of the Enlightenment's 
'start 
menu', where instead of a cascade menu it is a three column thingy (I am
not sure what this sort of menu is called), something like this (from
Mint):

ftp://ftp.deepsoft.com/ftp/pub/deepwoods/Other/RibbonMenu.png
   
   well that link doesn't work... no data. :)
  
  Wrong URL (bad copy-paste).  The correct URL is:
  
  ftp://ftp.deepsoft.com/pub/deepwoods/Other/RibbonMenu.png
  
   
But I am having a hard time figuring out how to do this.  The
documentation for edje leaves a lot to be desired and the API for
enlightenment itself is pretty much not documented at all.  I am a
skilled C programmer, but without useful documentation it is very hard 
to
program...
   
   edje has a full reference. people have pointed to it already. there are
   intro docs all around. but like most things - the rest is look at 
   examples
   and build from there. i personally find documentation obtuse and wasteful
   compared to examples. you may perfer wandering through docs. i spent my
   early unix learning years reading every manual page i could find - but
   frankly, reading someone elses shell scripts and then just referring to a
   manual for reference was by far easier and more productive..
  
  The PDF file generated from the LaTeX is only examples -- there isn't a 
  *reference*. I found the *examples* by themselves to be less than useful, 
  since there didn't seem to be a good *concept* reference.  At least in the
  PDF file I ended up with (make doc; cd doc/latex; make refman.pdf).
  
   
   now what i think your core problem here is, that you can't figure out how
   to do what you want.. because you literally can't do it in edje. you want 
   to
   fundamentally change the behaviour and layout of a menu. not just 
   re-shuffle
   some things, but change its core and that means you need to head off into
   the land of code. e_menu.c is where the entire menu code is. you wish to
   have similar functionality but different arrangement and that is a whole
   new kettle of fish. edje is merely a building-block to produce the gui
   elements you then lay out in code.
  
  I know all of that -- I am writting C code to implement the alternitive 
  functionallity, but it seems that I need some edje code  to go with it.
 
 given what you want is still a menu you can re-use the existing edje
 groups/parts for now until you have wrapped your head around edje. trust me -
 it's not something a document will tell you or teach you. it's cold hard slog
 and experience that will. :)

I am *trying* to do this, but all I am getting is a 1 pixel wide vertical
strip. I have pretty much copied e_menu.c (to a new C file) , but I suspect
that since the Evas_Object * structure does not match what e_menu.c was
creating and thus the corresponding edje menu.edc (copied to a new edc file)
structure, the result is not displaying anything (or not much). I *think* I
need to have the edje structure match the Evas_Object * structure, yes no? It
does not help much that the enlightenment C API is not partitularly well
documented either.

 
 

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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-30 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

Em Qua, 2013-10-30 às 22:42 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:

 given what you want is still a menu you can re-use the existing edje
 groups/parts for now until you have wrapped your head around edje.
 trust me -
 it's not something a document will tell you or teach you. it's cold
 hard slog
 and experience that will. :)


Rasterman,

I don't want to start a flame war or something, but maybe you're used to
shitty java documentation and this is the reason why you underestimate
documentation so much, but documentation is useful. This is an example
of a good documentation:
http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.0/qtgui/qpainter.html#details


-- 
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https://about.me/vinipsmaker


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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:55:31 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

 Em Qua, 2013-10-30 às 22:42 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
  given what you want is still a menu you can re-use the existing edje
  groups/parts for now until you have wrapped your head around edje.
  trust me -
  it's not something a document will tell you or teach you. it's cold
  hard slog
  and experience that will. :)
 
 
 Rasterman,
 
 I don't want to start a flame war or something, but maybe you're used to
 shitty java documentation and this is the reason why you underestimate
 documentation so much, but documentation is useful. This is an example
 of a good documentation:
 http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.0/qtgui/qpainter.html#details

no.. i'm not used to java documentation. i swore off java back in 1995 or so...
and do not want to ever go near it again.

this is simply a matter of time. spend 1hr adding a feature someone wants, or 1
hr writing docs. i personally use docs as reference only - i ALWAYS use example
codee. nothing to do with java - it simply is faster, easier and more
practical. i read unix man pages to begin with and frankly they told me very
little at all. a whole tonne of words for very little use. examples taught me
100x more in the same amount of effort with docs backing it up as reference.

as such most of efl does have docs. they are not voluminous essays. again - a
matter of time. if you wish to contribute by writing voluminous docs.. go for
it. :)

-- 
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-30 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 00:48 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:

 this is simply a matter of time. spend 1hr adding a feature someone
 wants, or 1
 hr writing docs.


Documentation is a feature too.


 i personally use docs as reference only - i ALWAYS use example
 codee. nothing to do with java - it simply is faster, easier and more
 practical.


Documentation can include snippets.


 i read unix man pages to begin with and frankly they told me very
 little at all. a whole tonne of words for very little use. examples
 taught me
 100x more in the same amount of effort with docs backing it up as
 reference.


Comparing manpages with HTML rich (or even PDFs) docs.


  * Manpages cannot have images (maybe with Terminology this is no
longer true) and for a GUI toolkit this is kind of a must.
  * Manpages don't have an easily browsable content (like HTML) have

  * Summary
  * Detailed description and extra sections
  * Extra pages (not directly related to one class only)
  * A small text for each function



 as such most of efl does have docs. they are not voluminous essays.
 again - a
 matter of time. if you wish to contribute by writing voluminous docs..
 go for
 it. :)


The magic of open source. :)


-- 
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https://about.me/vinipsmaker


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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:09:52 -0400 Enlightenment users discussion  support 
enlightenment-us...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

 
 Hi,
 
 Just to chime in with 10c's worth.
 
 This is my personal preference, working examples atleast as a base works
 for me ( examples as in code )...  Documentaions words are ok for the nitty
 gritty but not as a substitute for a good example.
 
 If you look at most tech books, the question is how many of us read any of
 them cover to cover?.

But *I* do find them *very* useful, even if I don't read them cover to cover.  
Often reading a page here or there (or even a whole section) if *very* useful, 
and *not* because of the included examples.  And an *important* part of any 
tech book is its index and/or table of contents -- either/both of these gets 
me to the page or section I need to read.

 
 Probably near none at all, so really for me thats enough said.


The main problem with documentation-by-example is what happens when there
isn't an example that covers the question at hand? Or (worse) when the
example's name or title does not fully suggest or explain what it is an
example of. Also, sometimes it is critical when looking at examples that there
is some explaination of the concepts involved. Examples alone can never really
explain how to do things, if the *underlying* concepts are not either known or
else explained. For example, what does 'swallow' mean in the context of edje?
The code in e_menu is using this, but I have no clue as to what is going on
and the swallow example does not really *explain* what is going on, it just
shows you how to use it, without explaining why you would do it or what 
its purpose is. Somehow, I don't think it has anything to do with eating or 
birds (but maybe it does?).

 
 Nige
 
 Disclaimer: This is my personal belief as stated.
 
 
 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM, VinÃcius dos Santos Oliveira 
 vini.ipsma...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Em Qui, 2013-10-31 Ã s 00:48 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
   this is simply a matter of time. spend 1hr adding a feature someone
   wants, or 1
   hr writing docs.
 
 
  Documentation is a feature too.
 
 
   i personally use docs as reference only - i ALWAYS use example
   codee. nothing to do with java - it simply is faster, easier and more
   practical.
 
 
  Documentation can include snippets.
 
 
   i read unix man pages to begin with and frankly they told me very
   little at all. a whole tonne of words for very little use. examples
   taught me
   100x more in the same amount of effort with docs backing it up as
   reference.
 
 
  Comparing manpages with HTML rich (or even PDFs) docs.
 
 
* Manpages cannot have images (maybe with Terminology this is no
  longer true) and for a GUI toolkit this is kind of a must.
* Manpages don't have an easily browsable content (like HTML) have
 
* Summary
* Detailed description and extra sections
* Extra pages (not directly related to one class only)
* A small text for each function
 
 
 
   as such most of efl does have docs. they are not voluminous essays.
   again - a
   matter of time. if you wish to contribute by writing voluminous docs..
   go for
   it. :)
 
 
  The magic of open source. :)
 
 
  --
  VinÃcius dos Santos Oliveira
  https://about.me/vinipsmaker
 
 
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  Android apps secure.
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:43:45 -0400 Enlightenment users discussion  support 
enlightenment-us...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

 
 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Robert Heller hel...@deepsoft.com wrote:
 
  At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:09:52 -0400 Enlightenment users discussion 
  support enlightenment-us...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
 
  
   Hi,
  
   Just to chime in with 10c's worth.
  
   This is my personal preference, working examples atleast as a base works
   for me ( examples as in code )...  Documentaions words are ok for the
  nitty
   gritty but not as a substitute for a good example.
  
   If you look at most tech books, the question is how many of us read any
  of
   them cover to cover?.
 
But *I* do find them *very* useful, even if I don't read them cover to
  cover.
Often reading a page here or there (or even a whole section) if *very*
  useful,
and *not* because of the included examples.  And an *important* part of
  any
tech book is its index and/or table of contents -- either/both of these
  gets
me to the page or section I need to read.
 
 
 
 Fair comment,
 
 
 
 
  
   Probably near none at all, so really for me thats enough said.
  
 
  The main problem with documentation-by-example is what happens when there
  isn't an example that covers the question at hand? Or (worse) when the
  example's name or title does not fully suggest or explain what it is an
  example of. Also, sometimes it is critical when looking at examples that
  there
  is some explaination of the concepts involved. Examples alone can never
  really
  explain how to do things, if the *underlying* concepts are not either
  known or
  else explained. For example, what does 'swallow' mean in the context of
  edje?
  The code in e_menu is using this, but I have no clue as to what is going on
  and the swallow example does not really *explain* what is going on, it just
  shows you how to use it, without explaining why you would do it or what
  its purpose is. Somehow, I don't think it has anything to do with eating or
  birds (but maybe it does?).
 
 
 I think at this stage, perhaps it would be good to take the opportunity to
 take a look at the documentation available.

I have, and it is not *useful* -- there isn't any explaination of what is
really going on. The 'Swallow Example' does not really explain what
edje_object_part_swallow(edje_obj, part_one, rect); does. There does not
seem to be a *useful* explaination of what edje_object_part_swallow() does,
why you should use it (or not). It is there in the code I copied from
e_menu.c, but I have no clue whether or not it is or is the reason I am not
seeing anything useful on the screen. Or if I need to add something to the
.edc file or what I should add to the .edc file.

Bascially, *none* of the edje_* *C* functions are explained in any detail, the 
examples, just show their use, within the context of the given examples, but 
without the explaination needed to extrapolate to other contexts.

Maybe the problem is that *I* have not absorbed the 'culture' behind the E17 
project.  I have not worked with a *C* based GUI API in some time (the last C 
based GUI API I worked with was Motif).  Most of the GUI programming I have 
been doing for the past 20+ years has been with Tcl/Tk.  (I have been coding 
in C and C++ all though that time, but the C code has not been GUI coding -- 
the C and C++ code ends up as a loadable shared library loaded into a Tcl/Tk 
main program that implements the GUI, if any.)

 
 Alot of these comments though have been made on howto's,  in that they
 usually only made sense after you have completed the task yourself.

I am not sure that this really makes sense for anything other then rote tasks.
And then one may end up only learning the rote task without the understanding
how to extend the task to other contexts. That is one can learn that to count
to 10 in C one does:

   int i;
   for (i=1, i=10; i++) printf(%d\n,i);
   
but without additional information it is not clear how to count backwards or
to only count even numbers (the above code does not explain how to do either
of these things). One cannot fully learn how to generally write C programs
from random little examples like the above. A proper reference book for the C
language *has* have more in it besides a dozzen or so examples like the above.
Otherwise it is not really useful.

 
 I would not doubt that the current documents could use some work.  I am not
 actually 100% on whom would be doing the task.  Possibly the person who
 wrote / contributed to the module in question.
 
 Would be cool to find a common agreement here.
 
 Nige
 
 
 
   Nige
  
   Disclaimer: This is my personal belief as stated.
  
  
   On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM, VinÃcius dos Santos Oliveira 
   vini.ipsma...@gmail.com wrote:
  
Em Qui, 2013-10-31 Ã s 00:48 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
   
 this is simply a matter of time. spend 1hr adding a feature someone
 wants, or 1

Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

2013-10-30 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

Em Qua, 2013-10-30 às 13:43 -0400, Nigel Sollars escreveu:

 Would be cool to find a common agreement here.
 
 Nige


Like Rasterman said: It's an open source project. We can change the
project and if the contribution is useful, it'll go upstream.

But about common agreement. This is not needed, because the options
don't exclude each other. We can have documentation AND examples.


-- 
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
https://about.me/vinipsmaker


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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

At Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:42:14 -0300 Enlightenment users discussion  support  
enlightenment-us...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

 
 
 
 Em Qua, 2013-10-30 Ã s 13:43 -0400, Nigel Sollars escreveu:
 
  Would be cool to find a common agreement here.
  
  Nige
 
 
 Like Rasterman said: It's an open source project. We can change the
 project and if the contribution is useful, it'll go upstream.
 
 But about common agreement. This is not needed, because the options
 don't exclude each other. We can have documentation AND examples.

YES+++

 
 

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Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/
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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:58:41 -0300 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
vini.ipsma...@gmail.com said:

 Em Qui, 2013-10-31 às 00:48 +0900, Carsten Haitzler escreveu:
 
  this is simply a matter of time. spend 1hr adding a feature someone
  wants, or 1
  hr writing docs.
 
 
 Documentation is a feature too.

in this case - for the minority of people. :)

  i personally use docs as reference only - i ALWAYS use example
  codee. nothing to do with java - it simply is faster, easier and more
  practical.
 
 Documentation can include snippets.

yes - i know. i prefer just code. get rid of the english fluff.

  i read unix man pages to begin with and frankly they told me very
  little at all. a whole tonne of words for very little use. examples
  taught me
  100x more in the same amount of effort with docs backing it up as
  reference.
 
 Comparing manpages with HTML rich (or even PDFs) docs. 
 
   * Manpages cannot have images (maybe with Terminology this is no
 longer true) and for a GUI toolkit this is kind of a must.
   * Manpages don't have an easily browsable content (like HTML) have

i know. i spent some of my early life on unix/linux paying large sums for
o'reilly books. and reading them cover to cover. they had diagrams. i frankly
far prefer raw simple code over those books. the code is digestible in a
fraction of the time. :) if i have an actual working bit of code i can compile
it, run it and then modify it to see how it wobbles when poked. poke a bit more
and see some more wobbling. these wobbles tell me the story of how CHANGES to
the example affect the behaviour. start small with small changes and see. :) a
book doesn't give me that. english words don't give me that. code does. :) but
that is my style - i know that within all fields of education including foreign
languages, math, science, etc. etc. i always gravitated to learn by example.
i naturally break up the examples into their constituent parts and know how to
manipulate them - the pattern builds over time naturally.

all i can offer here is - don't go massively rewrite some code within an app or
toolkit you are not immensely familiar with. start small. start with some
really minor augmentations very minor, and one small thing at a time - work
towards what you ultimately want. each step teaches you something important. :)

   * Summary
   * Detailed description and extra sections
   * Extra pages (not directly related to one class only)
   * A small text for each function

actually man pages do have these. ever seen the see also section? it is
effectively links to other related pages. :) i've read a LOT of man pages. :)

  as such most of efl does have docs. they are not voluminous essays.
  again - a
  matter of time. if you wish to contribute by writing voluminous docs..
  go for
  it. :)
 
 
 The magic of open source. :)

indeed. :)

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Re: [E-devel] [e-users] Is there real documentation for edje?