[EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used & Outside-State Purchased EVs
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too
Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too
By John Voelcker May 13, 2015
[images
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg
2015 Nissan Leaf
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg
Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from SolarDave
blog
]
The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives and
fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders.
And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record.
But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by any
other state, as far as we can determine.
That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not just to
new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously been
claimed.
That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside Colorado.
That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a credit
for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a
maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicle.
According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain anonymous,
a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the program.
That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to California
to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three
years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase rebate.
Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado, register it
as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's tax
return.
That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric
car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy
Efficiency Project (SWEEP).
On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have instituted a
special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the gasoline
taxes they don't pay.
But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year.
Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric
Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other
infrastructure.
At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state was
one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla Motors
from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state.
That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim
Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
published in October 2012.
If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to get
more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
exactly that.
A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes for
the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015] Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or greater
than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit
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[EVDL] EVLN: Determining the residual value of a Leaf EV
http://www.torquenews.com/1/what-determines-residual-value-nissan-leaf What Determines The Residual Value of Nissan LEAF By Armen Hareyan 2015-05-13 [image http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/2014_nissan_leaf_residual_value.jpg (screen shot of page showing residual values over time) ] Since there are more and more used Nissan LEAFs for sale, one wonders how the residual market value of LEAF EVs are determined. In this picture you see the residual value of 2014 Nissan LEAF 5dr HB S, estimated by Cars.com. But there are issues related to battery replacement and battery life, which I don't know if are included while calculating the 2014 LEAF's residual value. I asked the question to some Nissan LEAF owners and here is what they commented [ https://www.fac ebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/871431416247854/ ]. Thomas Crummett, who earlier blogged on how he uses his Nissan LEAF's trip computer [ http://www.torquenews.com/1/how-i-use-my-nissan-leafs-trip-computer ], writes that residual value is the amount the financing company owes on the vehicle. If you get a 3-year lease with $0 down and $100/mo, the residual will be the sale value - $3600. Or, more accurately, it would be the purchased price minus all payments. Often this is over KBB/resale value, and with Electric Vehicles, it's often off by thousands. Battery vs EV Residual Value However, one problem, that LEAF drivers were pointing out related to Nissan LEAF's residual value is the constantly improving battery technology. In general, a big unknown when it comes to resale value of electric vehicles is battery degradation and the cost of replacing the battery pack. "Due to the constantly improving battery technology and the EV technology in general, the LEAF had never held value since its original release," writes Melina Hristova, referring to "lizard battery" to address higher temperature climates tolerance as an example. However, we have to point that Nissan has addressed this problem [ http://www.torquenews.com/2250/replacement-battery-cost-bodes-well-used-leaf-market ] with aggressive pricing of Nissan LEAF replacement batteries. How well it's working, I don't know. Victor Sfo who lives in San Franciso, says he never had an overheating issue with his LEAF's battery. Crummett replied back and explained that any time it's over ~90, your battery will suffer. "Just because it hasn't immediately failed or significantly degraded does not mean you wouldn't benefit from an improved chemistry. Definitely much more significant in areas like Arizona," Crummett writes. Hristova replied back and wrote that there was a reason Nissan decided to improve the battery chemistry. "If you are down to 9 bars and getting only 50 miles out of a full charge, the adjusted warranty means nothing. You are waiting like many to lose that 4th bar, so you can claim warranty replacement, and struggle to make your commutes and rounds like many. Not to mention, pre-owned LEAFS with even one missing bar are sitting unsold at dealerships for months, no matter how low the price is, while the value of the car continue to drop almost weekly," she explains. Interestingly, Luke Ottaway, at the time was a fellow in automotive engineering at the Clemson University International Center for Automotive Research, says that EV Battery degradation in extreme temperatures might not be as bad as AAA says [ http://www.torquenews.com/2250/battery-degradation-extreme-temperatures-might-not-be-bad-aaa-says ]. EV Residual Value and Market Conditions Brian Henderson redirects the conversation pointing out how important the market conditions are when determining anything's residual value. He correctly writes that the "residual value depends on the market conditions at the time the lease was initialed. Like interest rates on a loan; they vary based on a number of market factors … no one magical formula." David Laur agrees with him saying "Brian is right. The value of anything is what people are willing to pay for such item. With other incentives available for new LEAFs, older ones can be tough to sell. In most cases, used LEAFs can be several thousand less than the residual on the lease. If you are in a lease and its about to end and you cannot negotiate a lower buyout, then let them take it and go buy a used one. You will likely save a ton." [© torquenews.com] For EVLN posts use: http://evdl.org/evln/ http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/May/Norwegian-EV-initiatives-to-continue-until-2017/0438019816 Norwegian EV initiatives to continue until 2017 http://ecomento.com/2015/05/14/norway-to-stick-with-electric-car-subsidies/ http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/hydro-quebec-research-partnership-touts-higher-density-ev-battery-147960/ hydroquebec.com nonflammable-electrolyte no-cobalt metallic-li battery http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/13/zero-motorcycles-italy/ The complete Zero electric motorcycles line will be available in Italy http://ww
[EVDL] EVLN: Roe-Deer.no kamikaze'd Kjetil-Jystad's e-Golf EV
http://www.torquenews.com/1/safety-place-when-vw-e-golf-hits-deer
Safety in Place When VW e-Golf Hits a Deer
By Armen Hareyan 2015-05-13
[image
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/vw_e-golf.jpg
We saw this picture on Fac ebook after one of the VW e-Golf drivers had
shared what happened to him when his e-Golf had an accident with a deer
]
Everyone were OK. After such a big hit even the airbag of the VW e-Golf was
not used.
Kjetil Jystad was driving his VW e-Golf in Moelv in Norway, when a deer
tried to crouch his e-Golf. I asked Kjetil if I can share this picture with
TorqueNews readers. He graciously agreed. I don't have many details, except
what Kjetil wrote.
"Happy to report no airbag was used. The roe deer tried to crouch I guess,
went under the car. Luckily no damage to the passengers or battery pack. But
the damages is estimated to approximately 50,000 Norwegian Krones (about
6,765.03 USD according to XE.com) and is covered by car insurance," writes
Jystad.
Looks like it was the end for the deer.
There have always been questions about the safety of electric cars. Here is
one example that EVs like the VW e-Golf could handle the safety well. In
fact, see how Chevy Volt [pih] handles a crash [
http://www.torquenews.com/1/chevy-volt-owner-only-gets-minor-bruises-after-being-hit-mac-truck
]. [© torquenews.com]
...
http://folk.uio.no/atlemy/ril.htm
Roe deer - C. capreolus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_deer
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack#Japanese_Kamikaze
Kamikaze attack
...
https://www.fac ebook.com/public/Kjetil-Jystad
Kjetil Jystad Hedmark County, Norway | Oil & Energy 151 connections
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/May/Norwegian-EV-initiatives-to-continue-until-2017/0438019816
Norwegian EV initiatives to continue until 2017
http://ecomento.com/2015/05/14/norway-to-stick-with-electric-car-subsidies/
http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/hydro-quebec-research-partnership-touts-higher-density-ev-battery-147960/
hydroquebec.com nonflammable-electrolyte no-cobalt metallic-li battery
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/13/zero-motorcycles-italy/
The complete Zero electric motorcycles line will be available in Italy
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ubco-2x2-the-two-wheel-drive-electric-enduro-bike-video-95352.html
Ubco 2x2 e-bicycle feels like an e-motorcycle r:100-150km ts:45kph (v)
http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2015/05/electric_car_charging_available_at_hunterdon_medic.html
EVSE outside the parking garage @Hunterdon Medical Center NJ
+
EVLN: Determining the residual value of a Nissan Leaf EV
{brucedp.150m.com}
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[EVDL] EVent: Victory e-motorcycle racing @iomtt.com Races 6/10 IsleOfMan UK
http://www.cyclenews.com/45/33951/Racing-Article/Victory-Motorcycles-to-Race-Prototype-Electric-Motorcycle-at-the-Isle-of-Man-TT-Races.aspx
Victory Motorcycles to Race Prototype Electric Motorcycle at the Isle of Man
TT Races
By Press Release | 5/16/2015
[images
http://images.cyclenews.com/photogalleries/VictoryIOMTT2.jpg
http://images.cyclenews.com/photogalleries/VictoryIOMTT.jpg
]
This is a press release from TT Press Office
Medina, MN (May 12, 2015) - Victory Motorcycles is announcing their
intention to race at the 2015 Isle of Man TT Races fueled by Monster Energy
on a Victory electric race prototype motorcycle.
The prototype electric race bikes will be piloted by William Dunlop of the
legendary Dunlop dynasty and by Lee Johnston known in the racing world as
"General Lee."
[image] Lee Johnston (left) and William Dunlop (right).
Victory Racing will compete in the Isle of Man TT electric class, marking
the first time that Victory Motorcycles has entered a professional
motorcycle-racing event in Europe and raced an electric motorcycle. Parker,
the world's leading diversified manufacturer of motion and control
technologies and systems, is providing the race-proven, high-performance GVM
PMAC motors for both machines.
"The entire Victory team is excited to make history with this effort," said
Rod Krois, Victory General Manager. "We know that William Dunlop's
experience and the continued Victory Motorcycles development of this
electric race bike through work with Parker will propel us into a strong
future with electric motorcycles."
The SES TT Zero Challenge class event for electric motorcycles is a one-lap
race round the island's 37.73-mile Mountain Course scheduled for Wednesday,
June 10, 2015.
"I'm more than excited to race this prototype at the Isle of Man," said
William Dunlop. "Electric powertrains have many advantages, and the Isle of
Man is one of the greatest tests in motorcycle racing."
Lee Johnston will be riding the second entry for Victory Racing in the SES
TT Zero Race and said, "I'm excited to make history by racing the new
Victory electric race prototype. It's thrilling to be part of the emerging
electric motorcycle movement."
[images] Ben Furnish, Marketing Manager for Parker Hannifin said, "Parker is
thrilled to be involved with Victory Motorcycles in this historic event with
these talented riders. We look forward to working with Victory to develop
high performance powertrains for electric motorcycles."
The Victory Racing prototype electric race bike features a dedicated
electric racing motor and power cells as well as highly sophisticated
electric controls to maximize the top power, power delivery, and durability
under racing conditions. Victory engineers have further refined the
electronics and chassis for the upcoming race with private test sessions in
North America.
Victory Motorcycles will host a continuous news feed of updates and photos
from the Isle of Man TT and will have more information available on the
Victory electric prototype race bike at www.VictoryMotorcycles.com. Be sure
to follow Victory on Twitter @VictoryBikes and on Fac ebook at fac
ebook.com/VictoryMotorcycles for additional updates. To learn more about
Parker and their production version of the GVM traction motors visit
http://promo.parker.com/promotionsite/hybrid-electric-vehicle/us/en/home.
[© 2015 CycleNews]
...
http://www.motorcycle.com/features/victory-race-electric-prototype-isle-man-tt.html
Victory To Race Electric Prototype At Isle Of Man TT
...
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2015/May/12/Victory-Motorcycles-TT-Zero-Challenge.aspx
Isle of Man TT electric class
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used & Outside-State Purchased EVs
Does anyone know if the federal credit can be applied to a used EV
provided that the credit hasn't already been applied to that EV?
Peri
-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV"
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 18-May-15 12:41:11 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used & Outside-State
Purchased EVs
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too
Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too
By John Voelcker May 13, 2015
[images
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg
2015 Nissan Leaf
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg
Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from
SolarDave
blog
]
The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives
and
fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders.
And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record.
But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by
any
other state, as far as we can determine.
That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not
just to
new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously
been
claimed.
That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside
Colorado.
That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a
credit
for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a
maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicle.
According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain
anonymous,
a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose
Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the
program.
That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to
California
to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three
years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase
rebate.
Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado,
register it
as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's
tax
return.
That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric
car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy
Efficiency Project (SWEEP).
On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have
instituted a
special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the
gasoline
taxes they don't pay.
But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year.
Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric
Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other
infrastructure.
At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state
was
one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla
Motors
from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state.
That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim
Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
published in October 2012.
If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to
get
more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
exactly that.
A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes
for
the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015] Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or
greater
than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit
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F
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used & Outside-State Purchased EVs
sident Tim
>Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
>published in October 2012.
>
>If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to
>get
>more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
>exactly that.
>
>A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes
>for
>the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
>admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
>[© greencarreports.com]
>...
>http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
>Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
>...
>http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
>Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
>[May 13, 2015] Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
>electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or
>greater
>than 10 kWh - including models ...
>...
>http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
>You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
>...
>https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
>Electric vehicle tax credit
>
>
>
>
>For EVLN posts use:
>http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
>{brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-CO-s-Credit-Applies-2Used-Outside-State-Purchased-EVs-tp4675595.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
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>For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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[EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
MICHELIN ENERGY SAVER 155/65R14 75SES2: This is the best tire I can get from Michelin. Does everyone agree that it is hard to get a more efficient and narrow tire? If this is so what super light rim should I use. If not is there a better tire to use. Each wheel will only have to support 300 to 400 pounds. The car or trike will be based on these tires so the rim must be very light. Would Insight rims be a place to start? I'm trying to use off the shelf parts so building and maintaining the vehicle will be easy. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/c0d933e9/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675605.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 05/18/2015 09:51 AM, tomw via EV wrote: What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
Larger diameter would be more efficient. If they don't need to carry much weight you might look into using motorcycle tires which are narrower. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Wheels-for-efficient-vehicle-tp4675604p4675607.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote: > The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? -- Original Message -- From: "Ben Goren via EV" To: "Willie2" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung weight. . -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? -- Original Message -- From: "Ben Goren via EV" To: "Willie2" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses >On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote: > >> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are >>sprung. > >Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? > >b& >___ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used & Outside-State Purchased EVs
sident Tim
>Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
>published in October 2012.
>
>If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to
>get
>more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
>exactly that.
>
>A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes
>for
>the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
>admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
>[© greencarreports.com]
>...
>http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
>Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
>...
>http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
>Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
>[May 13, 2015] Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
>electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or
>greater
>than 10 kWh - including models ...
>...
>http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
>You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
>...
>https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
>Electric vehicle tax credit
>
>
>
>
>For EVLN posts use:
>http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
>{brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-CO-s-Credit-Applies-2Used-Outside-State-Purchased-EVs-tp4675595.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
>___
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>For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
To determine what size and load rating that is require for a vehicle, first find out what the static load that is on each wheel and tire. Lets say the vehicle weighs 3000 lbs and the weight distribution is 50/50. Meaning 1500 lbs on each axle or 750 lbs on each wheel and tire. In choosing a wheel, it is recommended to add a percentage over the actual load on each wheel or about 1.25% over the load on the tire and wheel. For are example of a 750 lb load rating, choose a tire with a minimum of 1000 lb max load rating. Also choose a wheel with the same load rating as the tire. Lets say the load rating of the tire is 1000 lbs max at 40 psi, and you only have 750 lbs load on that tire, this does not mean to air the tire to 40 psi. To determine the best psi setting to use, test the tire deflection rate by doing the following test: Jack the tire off grade and air it up to the maximum psi rating that's on the side of the tire. Now lower the tire to where it touches the ground. Measure from the ground to the rim of the wheel. Record this measurement. Now lower the tire to the ground putting full weight of the vehicle on the ground and measure again to the same reference point. Lets say it reads 0.5 inch difference between the full load and unloaded weight of the vehicle. The 0.5 inch deflection is about the standard that is use for most vehicles. If the deflection rate is more than 0.5 inch than add some air. Some truckers may use a deflection rate at about 0.385 inch or 3/8 inch for smooth highway surfaces to decrease fuel usage. I have tried the 3/8 inch deflection rate, but it gives a very harsh ride and on rough roads, it does not allow the tire to roll smoothly over wavy roads. If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go thru the wheel. Roland - Original Message - From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:10 AM Subject: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle. MICHELIN ENERGY SAVER 155/65R14 75SES2: This is the best tire I can get from Michelin. Does everyone agree that it is hard to get a more efficient and narrow tire? If this is so what super light rim should I use. If not is there a better tire to use. Each wheel will only have to support 300 to 400 pounds. The car or trike will be based on these tires so the rim must be very light. Would Insight rims be a place to start? I'm trying to use off the shelf parts so building and maintaining the vehicle will be easy. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/c0d933e9/attachment.htm<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/c0d933e9/attachment.htm>> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/3a07f202/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
We must be using different terminology. As best I understood it, the hub is the center of the wheel where the axle connects. The hubcap covers the hub. And I thought that hub motors are in the same basic location as the hubcap, with either the stator or rotor in the wheel and the other half in the axle. Unsprung weight is the wheels and that which is fixed to them. Sprung weight is the frame and that which is fixed to it. The springs connect the two. Components, such as axles, that are fixed to both frame and wheels contribute some of their weight to each. At absolute best, an axle motor would be partially sprung and partially unsprung. But once you put the motor in the wheel, in the hub, it's entirely unsprung. b& On May 18, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Mark Grasser via EV wrote: > Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung > weight. > > . > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM > To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range > EV4the masses > > Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Ben Goren via EV" > To: "Willie2" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > > Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range > EV4the masses > >> On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote: >> >>> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are >>> sprung. >> >> Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? >> >> b& >> ___ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 18 May 2015 at 11:35, Mark Grasser via EV wrote: > Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung > weight. > I'm not positive, but I think the car's website has it backward. I think the following is mostly correct; engineers please set me right if not. The body of a vehicle is sprung mass, because it's suspended on springs. The wheels are unsprung mass, unless you count the limited resiliency of the tires. Old fashioned solid axles are unsprung mass. In a modern car, some suspension components are unsprung mass. A motor mounted in the wheel or fastened to a solid axle is (a fair bit of) unsprung mass. A motor mounted to the vehicle body, driving the wheels through a flexible axle shaft, is sprung mass. In this case, the drive axles are partly sprung and partly unsprung, but I don't know how to calculate the proportions. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I think you are wrong. The rule of thumb is weight / 10. For your car 2260/10=226 Wh/m You claim 216 so this fits. Tesla weighs 4700 lbs so it should use 470 Wh/m but it's between 325 and 375 Wh/m for most people. That comes to a 20% increase in efficiency over your car. From: tomw via EV To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675605.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/85d49f11/attachment-0001.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range.EV4the masses
You have it backwards. Unsprung weight refers to the weight which has no suspension between it and the ground (tire, wheel, perhaps some or all of the axle, diff, and driveshaft), while the spring weight is the portion which is riding on springs (chassis, body, passengers, battery, etc.) One minimizes unsprung weight in order to avoid using too much energy moving the car up and down over bumps and potholes and so forth, among other reasons. -Bill > On May 18, 2015, at 16:35, Mark Grasser via EV wrote: > > Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung > weight. > > . > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM > To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range > EV4the masses > > Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Ben Goren via EV" > To: "Willie2" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > > Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range > EV4the masses > >>> On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote: >>> >>> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are >>> sprung. >> >> Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? >> >> b& >> ___ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > The rule of thumb is weight / 10. Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion. How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox. I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of "Murphy factor" such that my surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant. (And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the electric motor connected only to that.) b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile does. The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared. Either way 216 or 196 is far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one human around, which is the typical occupancy. Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight. Then the Tesla would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be 196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city driving. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675619.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV wrote: > If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is > recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick > that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go > thru the wheel. To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon disc wheel. The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center. b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general. Above 45 mph aerodynamics starts being more important than weight. This is why the the heavy first generation Toyota prius has good highway MPG. In general the stop and go nature of travel below 45 mph overwhelms the greater efficiency. We used a hill between my house and shop to work on the aerodynamics of my car. After playing with cardboard and tape (then later vinyl) we increased the coast downhill speed by 15 mph and decreased my 1/8 mile time by 2/10 with the same trap speed. After this my 2000 pound Daytona-look-a-like went from around 350 wh/mile to 312 wh/mile driving 15 miles with 6 stop lights 4 stop signs and a large hill and no-regeneration in both directions. This was testing done for X-prize competition and was well measured. -Original Message- From: tomw via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile does. The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared. Either way 216 or 196 is far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one human around, which is the typical occupancy. Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight. Then the Tesla would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be 196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city driving. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675619.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Michael Kadie via EV wrote: > The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general. That makes sense, and it's good news for my PHEV conversions...all-electric mode is going to be mostly around town and mostly at or below 45 MPH. Which means I should easily hit, for the Mustang at least, my goal of range performance roughly comparable to a Chevy Volt b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: MICHELIN ENERGY SAVER 155/65R14 75SES2: This is the best tire I can get from Michelin. Does everyone agree that it is hard to get a more efficient and narrow tire? If this is so what super light rim should I use. If not is there a better tire to use. Each wheel will only have to support 300 to 400 pounds. The car or trike will be based on these tires so the rim must be very light. Would Insight rims be a place to start? I'm trying to use off the shelf parts so building and maintaining the vehicle will be easy. Lawrence Rhodes I have no info on that particular tire. But I do with the Bridgestone Potenza RE92 175/65R14 84S XL. This was the special low rolling resistance tire that came on our 2001 Prius. When I (and pretty much everyone else) changed from this tire to any other, MPG went down by 3-5 mpg. As it happens, we just needed to replace the tires on our Prius last fall. We bought replacements of exactly this tire from NTB for just under $100 each. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
tomw via EV wrote: At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. That excellent, Tom. Remind me again what your EV is? A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD... Should that be 80% DOD (i.e. 80% of the capacity of the pack used)? This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH. It just requires a very efficient design that is scratch-built as an EV, and not just an IC conversion or other car built with the same heavy steel construction as ICEs. For example, the Solectria Sunrise went over 200 miles on a charge with its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles with James Worden hypermiling at the wheel. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I thought that at freeway speeds the weight of the vehicle doesn't make much difference. But how "slippery" it is does. Unless, of course, you're going 186 miles all uphill. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Lee Hart via EV" To: "tomw" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 18-May-15 11:40:19 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses tomw via EV wrote: At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. That excellent, Tom. Remind me again what your EV is? A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD... Should that be 80% DOD (i.e. 80% of the capacity of the pack used)? This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH. It just requires a very efficient design that is scratch-built as an EV, and not just an IC conversion or other car built with the same heavy steel construction as ICEs. For example, the Solectria Sunrise went over 200 miles on a charge with its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles with James Worden hypermiling at the wheel. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
tomw via EV wrote: Larger diameter would be more efficient. If they don't need to carry much weight you might look into using motorcycle tires which are narrower. It's not quite that easy. Larger diameter is more efficient, all things being equal. But they are rarely equal. A larger tire and its rim is going to be heavier. The extra weight pushes you in the wrong direction. A larger tire adds wind resistance, both from its larger frontal area, and by stirring more air around it as it spins. The tire may be constructed differently. For example, motorcycle tires are definitely not built for low rolling resistance. Years ago, I talked to Bob McKee about his amazing Sundancer EVs. They were going up to 140 miles on a charge on just twelve 6v golf cart batteries! He said he did a lot of experiments on tires, and found that *smaller* wheels were better, because the weight savings and reduced aerodynamic losses were greater than the increase in rolling resistance. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Ben Goren via EV wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a universal joint between it and the axle. Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit). Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension. Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: > So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they > might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? > > It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish > mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. I see that some have recommended LEAFs, but I personally would have a hard time recommending one for Phoenix if you need 50 miles of range on the freeway in the heat and expect to keep that range for years to come. Phoenix was the epicenter of rapid capacity loss for the 2011-2012 LEAF, after two years owners could not make it 50 miles per charge. Now, if you lose enough capacity Nissan will install a new supposedly heat-tolerant battery (or you can buy one for about $6k installed if no longer under warranty) that should survive Arizona heat better, but no-one is really sure how long even the heat-tolerant "lizard" pack will last there. After 4 years in southern California my '11 LEAF with 2 capacity bars lost will do just about 50 miles on the freeway with light air conditioning usage from 100% to the first low-battery warning at which point there's about 12 miles of range left. In my opinion, all the affordable EVs are risky investments for someone on a limited budget who need a reliable 50 miles of range. They might consider a used plug-in hybrid, like a Volt, whose battery appears to be holding up much better in the heat. But they are also priced more than the LEAF on the used market. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
When I built mine I did a spread sheet. It's all weight until you get up to highway speeds in excess of 65 miles per hour on my 86 Celica. From: Ben Goren To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > The rule of thumb is weight / 10. Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion. How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox. I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of "Murphy factor" such that my surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant. (And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the electric motor connected only to that.) b& -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/9b756599/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Correction drag from Aerodynamics did not become larger than weight until after 75 mph. It has an effect after 20mph just much smaller than the weight. Got to about 20% of the weight by 50 mph. Aerodynamics makes a parabolic curve so by 75 it matches the effects of weight. From: paul dove via EV To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses When I built mine I did a spread sheet. It's all weight until you get up to highway speeds in excess of 65 miles per hour on my 86 Celica. From: Ben Goren To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > The rule of thumb is weight / 10. Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion. How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox. I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of "Murphy factor" such that my surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant. (And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the electric motor connected only to that.) b& -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/9b756599/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/6fad8676/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
One more thing that I did not mention. Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face against the driving surface. You calculated the square area of the actual contact surfaces of the tire and divided that into the vehicle weight that is on that tire. The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire and than lower it on a white plastic cover board. You will find that a wide tire will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches long for the width of the tire. If there is no thread on the tire and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have about 24 square inches of contact rubber. Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 lbs per square inch which is not good for traction. A narrow tire foot print will be longer than 2 inches which a standard vehicle tire may be up to 6 inches long and about 6 inches wide. Again with only solid rubber area, the contact patch would be about 6 x 6 = 36 square inches. Therefore the smaller width tire will have more contact area. We found out that on dry smooth pavement, 10 lbs per square inch will work, while on ice, it takes about 50 lbs per square inch to maintain the traction. Roland - Original Message - From: Ben Goren<mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com> To: Roland<mailto:e...@msn.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle. On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote: > If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is > recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick > that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go > thru the wheel. To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon disc wheel. The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center. b& -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/0389ff0d/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
720 / 24 = 30 lbs per square inch. At 12:54 PM 5/18/2015, Roland via EV wrote: One more thing that I did not mention. Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face against the driving surface. You calculated the square area of the actual contact surfaces of the tire and divided that into the vehicle weight that is on that tire. The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire and than lower it on a white plastic cover board. You will find that a wide tire will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches long for the width of the tire. If there is no thread on the tire and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have about 24 square inches of contact rubber. Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 lbs per square inch which is not good for traction. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
On May 18, 2015, at 12:54 PM, Roland wrote: > The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire > and than lower it on a white plastic cover board. I understand that most track racing uses pyrometers or infrared cameras or the like to see which parts of the tire are heating up most, and adjust inflation to achieve and maintain maximally uniform load distribution. I would further suggest that such an approach is ideal for all driving -- though, of course, generally impractical. Regardless, if you wish to change the dynamics of your tire's contact patch, the only safe way to do so is by choosing a different tire. Changing it away from optimal through inflation will result in either overinflation or underinflation, both of which can be most detrimental to the car's handling. b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart wrote: > Ben Goren via EV wrote: >>> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. >> Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? > > One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like > the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a > universal joint between it and the axle. > > Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft > and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free > to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit). Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle. > Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be > attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the > suspension. Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. You've either got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels attached to the car and also somehow spinning. > Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken. Sounds like the answer b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV wrote: > When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Because of the nature of the project, I'm not overly worried about battery range, but it's always better to refine expectations when possible. Thanks! b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee Hart wrote: ...have a long shaft on the motor... acts like a swing axle ...have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between motor shaft and wheel... Ben Goren via EV wrote: Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle. Much of this is defined by marketing, not engineering. If calling it a "hub motor" makes it sell, then it's called a "hub motor". You'll find lots of examples of bicycle "hub motors" that have a high-speed motor with a gear reduction between it and the wheel, for example. Of course in bicycles, unsprung weight is much less of a problem due to the low speeds and general lack of suspension anyway. have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension. Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. True direct-drive hub motors pretty much *are* an impossible design. :-/ They only work if you're willing to sacrifice cost, performance, reliability, etc. just to have a hub motor. That means they only get used in specialized applications. You've either got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels attached to the car and also somehow spinning. Indeed, the working examples do have these issues. They'll use McPherson strut suspension, so the wheel does move straight up/down. Then some kind of planar ball bearing, air cushion, or other means to keep the rotor and stator apart, or minimize the consequences of them touching (RPM is low, after all). -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Paul Dove wrote: When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Ben Goren via EV wrote: Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations. This is a "dead" version for email purposes (filled out for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations for the calculations. Ben, I can send a "live" version to your email address if you like (let me know off-list). Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculations by: Lee Hart HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag where rolling resistance = R W V / 375 R = tire roll resistance0.008 W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306 V = velocity, mph 5 power train loss = C W V^2 / 375 C = loss coefficient0.0002 I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc. aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625 Cd = drag coefficient 0.35 A = frontal area, sq.ft.18 motor ADC L91 15 HP at 96 volts and 135 amps = 86% efficiency batteries 12 Concorde 12 v each weight (lbs)63 33% of curb wt 144 v total amp-hrs (20-hr rate)95 175 minutes at 25 amps Peukert amp-hrs 104 621 minutes at 8 amps Peukert exponent1.11 MPH 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 MotorHP 2.673.745.076.698.6210.91 13.57 16.66 Eff.66% 72% 77% 81% 84% 85% 86% 86% WattsIn 30393863489261607701955411762 14373 Amps22 28 36 45 56 70 86 105 Minutes 200 153 118 91 71 56 45 36 Miles 83 77 69 61 54 47 41 36 A spreadsheet makes it easy to play "what if..." games. What if I add a battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I reduce the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.
I knew you will get it. Roland - Original Message - From: Al Lumas<mailto:ajlu...@hughes.net> To: Roland<mailto:e...@msn.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle. 720 / 24 = 30 lbs per square inch. At 12:54 PM 5/18/2015, Roland via EV wrote: >One more thing that I did not mention. >Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face >against the driving surface. You calculated the square area of the >actual contact surfaces of the tire and divided that into the >vehicle weight that is on that tire. >The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink >the tire and than lower it on a white plastic cover board. You will >find that a wide tire will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches >long for the width of the tire. If there is no thread on the tire >and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have about 24 square inches >of contact rubber. > > Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 > lbs per square inch which is not good for traction. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/a4dbb721/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee Hart via EV wrote: Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations... Grr... I'm sorry the columns don't line up. It seems like the modern web simply can't handle a plain ASCII text file any more. Programs insist on changing tabs, double spaces, fonts, etc. which messes up the columns. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? -Chris On 5/18/2015 5:17 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Paul Dove wrote: When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Ben Goren via EV wrote: Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations. This is a "dead" version for email purposes (filled out for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations for the calculations. Ben, I can send a "live" version to your email address if you like (let me know off-list). Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculationsby: Lee Hart HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag whererolling resistance = R W V / 375 R = tire roll resistance0.008 W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306 V = velocity, mph5 power train loss = C W V^2 / 375 C = loss coefficient0.0002 I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc. aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625 Cd = drag coefficient0.35 A = frontal area, sq.ft.18 motorADC L91 15 HP at 96 volts and 135 amps = 86% efficiency batteries12 Concorde12 v eachweight (lbs)63 33% of curb wt144 v totalamp-hrs (20-hr rate)95 175 minutes at25 ampsPeukert amp-hrs104 621 minutes at8 ampsPeukert exponent 1.11 MPH2530354045505560 MotorHP2.673.745.076.698.6210.91 13.5716.66 Eff.66%72%77%81%84%85%86%86% WattsIn303938634892616077019554 1176214373 Amps22283645567086105 Minutes2001531189171564536 Miles8377696154474136 A spreadsheet makes it easy to play "what if..." games. What if I add a battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I reduce the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Yes I agree that on average over different vehicle types the drag force generally becomes larger than the rolling resistance force at around 45 mph. The Tesla S is interesting in this regard though since it has very low Cd and not that large of cross sectional area for such a massive vehicle. As a result the drag force doesn't become larger than the rolling resistance force until significantly higher speed. The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50% larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling resistance estimates from roll down tests) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675640.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Thanks Lee. The car is a 2001 Suzuki Swift, www.evalbum.com/3060 Yes it should have been 80% DOD. Thanks, I corrected it. I keep the tires at about 36 psi (that's what the tire gauge says anyway). Cd = 0.32 and rolling resistance plus brake drag = 0.014 gave best fit to the roll down data, and the Cd agrees with the spec I found on line. The Tesla S has almost exactly the same CdA as this car. Pretty impressive for such a large vehicle. From that, and the much greater weight of the Tesla you can see drag force will not exceed rolling resistance force until quite a bit above 45 mph, the cross over point for my car. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675641.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On Mon May 18 20:42:44 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: >The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50% >larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling >resistance estimates from roll down tests) I really should figure this out for my EV. 95 Ford F250. Around 6300 lbs. Anyone have the calcs handy? -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Mr23 via EV wrote: Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23! Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Google docs, that allows you to share spreadsheets, so anyone can (online) fill out your spreadsheet, save it or just look at it. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:50 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses Mr23 via EV wrote: > Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with > all the other technical information? That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23! Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 19 May 2015 at 0:50, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active > spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the > results online? Maybe something like this: http://www.luisllamas.es/excel2html-convert-excel-sheets-to-html-with- formulas/ http://v.gd/Tkvreo David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 18 May 2015 at 13:40, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH ... the Solectria Sunrise > went over 200 miles on a charge with its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* > occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles with James Worden hypermiling > at the wheel. This is true. A Sunrise prototype achieved 377 miles in the Tour de Sol. I should point out though that it was a specially prepared (read: stripped-out and highly optimized) prototype. So was the one that James Worden drove from Boston to New York (217mi), at speeds up to 65mph, with charge left over. This makes it hard to say what the Sunrise's real world range was. Others may know, but I've seen reports of 150 and 200 miles, so I'm going to make an irresponsibly wild guess and say perhaps 180mi. That would give us 145 Wh/mi at drop-dead DOD. Curiously, this efficiency is pretty close to the 150 Wh/mi that quite a few Solectria Force (Geo Metro conversion) owners have reported. This wouldn't be surprising. Their drivetrain was similar. The original Sunrise weighed a bit under 2300lb all up with battery. The Force's curb weight was close - 2100lb for the early model, 2450lb for the later one - even though it's a much smaller car. But the Sunrise had a big advantage over the Force in range. From what I can see, it came mostly from the fact that the Sunrise could carry a much bigger battery. A better comparison to the proposed Luka might be with Axel Krause's Mini- Evergreen. Although the Luka article is mum on dimensions, it looks to be closer in size to the two-place Mini-Evergreen than to the 5-place Sunrise. http://www.brusa.eu/en/development/applications/evergreen.html The Mini-Evergreen had a range of 220km (almost 140mi) at a steady 65km/h (40mph) round the Swiss countryside on an 18kWh battery. That's 129 Wh/mi. Now where have I seen that number before? Oh yeah, that's what you get when you compute the (unproven, speculative) Wh/mi claimed for this Luka EV. The Mini-Evergreen weighed 900kg (about 1985lb) including its 375kg (825lb) NiCd battery. Its aerodynamics couldn't have been anywhere close the Sunrise's slippery .17 CD, but looking at the photos of the Luka EV prototype, I'm not so sure that the Luka is much better. I'm no expert, but it looks to me like stylists had more to do with the Luka's shape than engineers. The Luka is supposed to weigh 1660lb all up. (I assume that includes the battery, but ...) That's 16% less than the Evergreen. So if it hits all its goals, then it might indeed have a chance at their efficiency target. My question is, will they get there? I don't know what Solectria's total Sunrise budget was, but I know they got something over a million bucks up front from Boston Edison and DARPA, and they worked on the car for at least 4 years. Lee Hart's effort to make the Sunrise into a kit car is a labor of love. I'm sure he's spent WAY less than Solectria did. But he's also been at it for about a decade now, and it looks like he still has a fair bit of work to go. Compare those - 4+ years, 10+ years - with the goals for the Luka. The article says nothing about the MW Motors budget, or where its funding comes from. It doesn't even tell us who's behind it, repeatedly and bizarrely attributing quotations to "MW Motors" and "the team leader." (This is a huge red flag, IMO.) Regardless, whoever it is wants to dispatch the project in LESS THAN A YEAR. To me, that says they're going to be throwing bushel baskets of cash into labor and contract work. Where's the funding coming from? From whom? How stable is it? We don't know. The article carefully sidesteps those issues. This makes me worry about a couple of things. One is that this might turn out to be another investor-trolling effort. The other is that it's sincere, but will end up like hundreds of other similar ones. The money tree sheds its leaves, the staff are let go, the workshop goes quiet. The doors are locked on the unfinished project. Bills go unpaid. Eventually a court calls for the assets to be sold to pay part of the debts. All the work, materials, and good ideas scatter to the four winds. Let's hope that neither of these scenarios happens here. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
