subject:"Re\: \[EVDL\] Supercharging is not the way."

On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> dump pack

Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a 
rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own.

Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak 
demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where 
luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; 
that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on 
a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in 
the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the 
grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. 
And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility 
because of the sharply peaking nature of the load.

But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are 
empty, the station only "sees" one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a 
megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or 
however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a 
constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a 
constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots 
would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of 
time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again.

Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely 
expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll 
more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can 
reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Michael Ross via EV

You can't just splice in extra nodes everywhere.  The wiring and circuit
protection has to accommodate the potential increased concurrent load.

Realistically, this applies to the entire grid.  You cannot suddenly power
a significant amount of our transportation with the existing grie.  The
ampacity is not there.  Add in too much and it all melts down.

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high
> as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to
> domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or
> no) off street parking spaces.
>
> Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a
> lightbulb, and it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A
> circuits to all those spaces. We hear more and more news stories about
> apartments providing plugs in the parking stalls, street meters doubling as
> charging points, and so on. I bet that's the standard we'll see: just as
> you expect a light switch at shoulder hight just inside every door on the
> same side as the knob, you'll expect an outlet at every parking spot.
>
> b&
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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Roland via EV

Did any of you monitor the voltage of the most negative cell and the most 
positive cell during the charging cycle and discharge cycle using a very high 
charging system?

My first EV came with a on board 50 amp charger and a off board 100 amp 3 phase 
charger.  These were SCR chargers which you could dial from 0 to 100 amp at 90 
volt to 280 volt output with a AC input of 125/250 VAC. 

Did not have any BMS back in the 70's at the time.  During the discharging 
cycle which may be up to 800 motor amperes, the most positive cell would always 
end up less voltage than the most positive cell.  This effect was also noted in 
a article call the Electric Vehicle News which was cause by the flow of 
electrons from the positive to the negative plates during discharge. 

During the charge cycle, the most positive cell may end up with more voltage 
then the most negative cell.  It was noted at the time, this effect was not to 
get concern over.  

This same charging and discharging voltage difference can be seen with the Li 
Ion pack that's has BMS.  The difference is very slight which is only 0.01 volt 
difference between the most negative and most positive.  

My battery pack consist of six strings of 54 cells in series at 33 ah for 226 
volts with the six strings in parallel.  Charging at 42 amperes with a 50 amp 
/250 vac charger, each string only receives 42/6 = 7 ampere per string taking 
the battery voltage only to 95% of the maximum rating of the cells. 

Driving only 10 miles, and charging at this rate, the voltage is reach in with 
30 seconds.  The voltage is then held until the ampere hour reaches 100% SOC 
which may take about 40 minutes.  

Using these superchargers, what is the recommended maximum charge current that 
can be use on one string of cells?

Roland

- Original Message - 

From: Ben Goren via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: EVDL Administrator<mailto:evp...@drmm.net> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 10:21 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

> On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> 
>> 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of
>> insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see 
>> in
>> a residential setting.
> 
> Not so far beyond at all.  A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 
> 240 volt service.  If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service 
> could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW.  
> 
> Many modern "mcmansions," which are often built by the dozens in high end 
> developments, now have 400 amp service.  This would allow for a continous 
> power of almost 77kW.  
> 
> Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly  
> widely available right now.

Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point.

60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and 
nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living 
in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, 
especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra 
to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge 
the car?

Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker 
in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. 
That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as 
will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for 
the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as 
not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage.

And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover 
all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid 
connection entirely.

I just don't see it.

What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the "new 
normal," for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or 
maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people 
who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a 
footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on 
road trips or out of desperation.

And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability 
at the same time they charge exorbitant fees

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread tomw via EV

I agree with Jamie. There are obviously a great range of situations, but I
would guess his is more typical.Where I live people seem to roughly fall
into two categories: those who like evs but can't afford one, and those who
can afford an ev but don't want one. The former can only afford one car
(typically a used one), and need to occasionally take longer trips to
grandparents, etc, and/or have a long commute. These people typically live
further from work because that's where they can afford a house. The latter
group considers an ev just a car, and far inferior to other cars they can
buy which refuel fast and go far. One put it rather succinctly after I told
her my car's range: "Its useless." In order for an ev to meet the desires of
the former group it has to compete with buying a used ice car. To sell to
the latter group it has to be "special" or "sexy", high quality, and have
long range, something like a Tesla S.

Myself, I found I used my ev more when I increased charging rate. It
enabled me to quickly charge at home for those times when I need to go
somewhere in the late afternoon or evening after coming home from a trip
where I used most of the battery's capacity. It also permitted me to charge
faster at public EVSEs, increasing the distance I could drive with a 30 - 60
minute stop, and decreasing my dwell time at the EVSE so it is available to
others. The latter is a big consideration where ev density is higher. My
charger is 10 kW, which is about 45 highway miles per hour charge for my
car. I sometimes stop at RV parks and charge from a 220V/50A outlet at 9 or
10 kW for 30 minutes then continue on. I also charge from a 220V/50A outlet
at home.

But of course a bicycle is much more efficient than an ev, so I ride that
for many of my errands except during the cold days of winter.

--
View this message in context:
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 14, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in 
> the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all 
> into their superchargers at the same time!

Indeed, that may well be a significant part of the behind-the-scenes thinking 
with their new Powerwall product. Remember how we were discussing "dump packs" 
for that Israeli high-current battery that we suspect could be vaporware? The 
Powerwall would likely make an excellent dump pack for a Model S.

After all, Tesla is selling the Powerwall as a way to use off-peak electricity 
during on-peak times...and few if any home appliances are as power-hungry as a 
rapidly-charging EV. Yeah, a single module is only 7-10 kWh...but I bet that's 
right in line with typical daily charging demands as reported over-the-air back 
to Tesla.

Hadn't thought of it before...but, now that I have, I'd be surprised if Tesla 
engineers haven't.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as 
> (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic 
> charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off 
> street parking spaces.

Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a lightbulb, and 
it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A circuits to all those 
spaces. We hear more and more news stories about apartments providing plugs in 
the parking stalls, street meters doubling as charging points, and so on. I bet 
that's the standard we'll see: just as you expect a light switch at shoulder 
hight just inside every door on the same side as the knob, you'll expect an 
outlet at every parking spot.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service...
Many modern "mcmansions," which are often built by the dozens in high end
developments, now have 400 amp service.  This would allow for a continous
power of almost 77kW.


Not quite. That's the peak power available; not the average. The 
utilities aren't building out their network to supply that kind of 
continuous power level for every home. Only a fraction of that power is 
available for any length of time.


I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone 
in the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug 
them all into their superchargers at the same time!

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Roadside charging stations - that's the interesting question.  How many 
will be needed and can they be profitable?  Certainly there's a lot of 
upfront cost to bring in the power, transformers, rectifiers, load 
leveling, and so on.  Once done, though, operation and maintenance 
should be miniscule compared to the existing gas stations.


My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high 
as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to 
domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few 
(or no) off street parking spaces.


As for whether people will install Level 1 or 2 domestic charging, I 
think the L2 will come down enough in price that it will be a defacto 
standard.  It doesn't make any significant difference on the need for 
roadside charging, though.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
To: "EVDL Administrator" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 14-May-15 9:21:47 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point.

60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, 
and nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many 
people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down 
basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool 
equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the 
first place, every time they want to charge the car?


Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A 
breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an 
electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, 
almost as many as will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the 
cost of the copper for the wiring is going to be insane -- especially 
since the meter is, as often as not, on the opposite side of the house 
as the garage.


And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper 
to cover all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, 
and cut the grid connection entirely.


I just don't see it.

What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the 
"new normal," for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V 
/ 15A (or maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the 
types of people who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers 
installed, and then a footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid 
charging that only gets used out on road trips or out of desperation.


And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for 
profitability at the same time they charge exorbitant fees




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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Rick Beebe via EV


On 05/14/2015 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A 
breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not 
an electrician. 


I have an 80A breaker in my panel for the 15Kw backup heat in our 
air-source heat pump.


--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> 
>> 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of
>> insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see 
>> in
>> a residential setting.
> 
> Not so far beyond at all.  A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 
> 240 volt service.  If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service 
> could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW.  
> 
> Many modern "mcmansions," which are often built by the dozens in high end 
> developments, now have 400 amp service.  This would allow for a continous 
> power of almost 77kW.  
> 
> Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly  
> widely available right now.

Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point.

60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and 
nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living 
in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, 
especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra 
to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge 
the car?

Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker 
in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. 
That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as 
will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for 
the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as 
not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage.

And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover 
all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid 
connection entirely.

I just don't see it.

What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the "new 
normal," for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or 
maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people 
who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a 
footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on 
road trips or out of desperation.

And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability 
at the same time they charge exorbitant fees

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Paul Dove via EV

GM seems to disagree with you.

Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. "The 
Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full 
performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is 
depleted," he said.
The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a 
small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those 
three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce 
drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive 
the vehicle.
Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its own. 
The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be combined 
with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels.
Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it cannot 
operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors.
The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and 
produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.
There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the 
wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the 
power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two 
electric motors.

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 14, 2015, at 6:59 AM, Russ Sciville  wrote:
> 
> The electronics only register cell electricity usage in the kWh field and gas 
> use in the other field.
> I agree though that any use of gas when measuring range could be slightly 
> incorrect as the Volt/Ampera REX is a generator only and starts and stops 
> regularly if driving slowly to ensure that it doesn't put any gas generated 
> power into the cells. 
> The software engineers try extremely hard to only generate energy for the 
> road when the cells are considered empty but are actually topped up and 
> emptied in a continuous process.
> 
> If you check earlier posts you will note that many display electricity only 
> use and are often over 50 miles.
> 
> BTW, these cars were so ahead of their time and are still probably the only 
> PHEV's that are pure electric with gas mode only used when the cells are 
> empty or "Hold/Mountain" mode is selected.
> They have huge power off the line and will happily reach and cruise at 100mph 
> (not on a public road) using battery only.
> 
> It is later hybrids like the Outlander that seem to need gas mode to assist 
> the electric motor.
> 
> From: Paul Dove 
> To: Russ Sciville  
> Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 12:41
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
> 
> I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a 
> gallon like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 
> 15 miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I 
> believe
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers.
>> 
>> My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of 
>> high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with 
>> other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce 
>> the need for higher capacity battery packs. 
>> 
>> The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used 
>> for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no 
>> capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount.
>> 
>> As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art 
>> many EVers develop naturally and this forum link   
>> https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is 
>> exceeded regularly.
>> 
>> What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of 
>> my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive 
>> train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third..
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: paul dove via EV 
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
>> Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
>> 
>> No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery.
>> You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you 
>> drive 40 MPH.
>> I was speaking of normal driving.
>>   From: Russ Sciville

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 13 May 2015 at 22:31, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> a certain percentage of the market will never be happy with EVs until
> they are "just like ICEs". 

I hate to say it, and I'm vulnerable to "citation needed," but I'd have to 
estimate that percentage at around 90 percent.  :-\

Especially here in the US, vehicle buyers have outsize expectations.  They 
want their vehicles to handle >any< situation, from commuting to hauling 
lumber and furniture.  Their habit is thus to buy vehicles that are grossly 
oversized and overpowered for their routine needs.  

It's also common for buyers to increase the vehicle size with every new 
vehicle purchase.  Presumably that's why automakers typically increase the 
size of each model with every redesign.

Unless they're forced to by circumstances or legislation, these consumers 
are not going to pay the same or more for a product that does less.  That's 
just normal consumer behavior.

Personally, I'm open to more limited EVs, and probably many others on the 
EVDL are too.  But let's face it, we're not "normal" vehicle consumers.  
Barring a major disruption in the market, EVs will have limited success with 
real world vehicle buyers until they match the capability of ICEVs, feature 
for feature.  

The only way round that is through low cost "niche" EVs which don't engender 
comparisons with ICEVs.  This is why e-bikes have been successful.  They 
cost less than cars, trucks, and motorcycles, and they supplement these 
larger and more capable vehicles rather than trying to replace them. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of
> insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in
> a residential setting.

Not so far beyond at all.  A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 
240 volt service.  If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service 
could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW.  

Many modern "mcmansions," which are often built by the dozens in high end 
developments, now have 400 amp service.  This would allow for a continous 
power of almost 77kW.  

Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly  
widely available right now.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Russ Sciville via EV

The electronics only register cell electricity usage in the kWh field and gas
use in the other field.I agree though that any use of gas when measuring range
could be slightly incorrect as the Volt/Ampera REX is a generator only and
starts and stops regularly if driving slowly to ensure that it doesn't put any
gas generated power into the cells. The software engineers try extremely hard
to only generate energy for the road when the cells are considered empty but
are actually topped up and emptied in a continuous process.
If you check earlier posts you will note that many display electricity only use
and are often over 50 miles.
BTW, these cars were so ahead of their time and are still probably the only
PHEV's that are pure electric with gas mode only used when the cells are empty
or "Hold/Mountain" mode is selected.They have huge power off the line and will
happily reach and cruise at 100mph (not on a public road) using battery only.
It is later hybrids like the Outlander that seem to need gas mode to assist the
electric motor.
From: Paul Dove
To: Russ Sciville
Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 12:41
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a gallon
like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15
miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I believe

Sent from my iPhone

On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville wrote:

Hi Paul,
I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers.
My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high
mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other
posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need
for higher capacity battery packs.
The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for
longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity
loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount.
As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many
EVers develop naturally and this forum link
https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is
exceeded regularly.

What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my
Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train
which uses the original gearbox fixed in third..

From: paul dove via EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery.
You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive
40 MPH.
I was speaking of normal driving.
From: Russ Sciville
To: Paul Dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs
and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel
chassis.

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Russ Sciville via EV

From: paul dove via EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Jay Summet via EV

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I have a "low range" S-10 pickup conversion with lead acid batteries.
(I limit it to 20 miles a charge with new batteries, and after a year
or two the usable range is closer to 15 miles.)  It's also relatively
inefficient, especially for the stop and go driving I do, plus some
hills (500-700 watt/hours a mile depending upon how you measure).

Level 1 charging works fine for my short commute (5 miles round trip
daily), and I used level 1 for a year almost exclusively until I had a
240 volt outlet installed in the appropriate location.

However, if I want to make two trips in a day (Saturdays, to the
hardware store and then somewhere else, or going out after work) L1
won't cut it.

Level 2 (relatively low 240 volts @ 18 amps or 4.3kWatts) charging
makes the truck much more usable, as I can do two trips per day, and I
wouldn't go back to L1 except for opportunity charging where a 240
volt outlet isn't available.

That being said, if my truck had a 200 mile range, L1 charging WOULD
be fine for me, as I never really go more than 10-15 miles on any of
my trips.

Jay



On 05/14/2015 05:07 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
> 
> All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid 
> charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to
> go soon, L1 is punishment charging.
> 
> There are places where L1 works well, for example at an airport
> where the car is going to sit for days. And no doubt there are
> folks who don't need much spontaneity and have consistent daily
> needs (or another vehicle available) so that L1 would suffice.
> 
> But while L1 can work for some cases, and it's nice to have in a
> pinch, it clearly limits what can be done with an EV.
> 
> I wouldn't try to speak for most people, but I do think that
> flexible (home and away) charging options are big part of the
> equation for growing the EV market.
> 
> L2 controllers do not cost thousands, ours was around $1k with 
> professional installation and construction permit. Faster home
> charging adds flexibility and makes the car investment worth much
> more.
> 
> When 200 mile ranges become the norm, it will be even more useful
> to charge at home at L2 6.6kW (or more) at around 25 miles per hour
> (or more) instead of trickling in at 5 miles/hour or so - except
> for those who don't mind parking their car much of the time and
> limiting their EV options.
> 
> The potential pricing of L3 charging is an interesting topic. Right
> now it's free or not much $$ around here. BTW, Nissan removed their
> earlier warning about L3 charging after monitoring the performance
> of the packs for several years, and perhaps after changing the
> battery chemistry.
> 
> Cheers, -Jamie
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/13/15 7:19 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
>> On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> It's the outliers that you have to accommodate.
>> 
>> Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging. When 200-mile
>> ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a 40 kWh
>> (usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the 
>> situation becomes moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual
>> day. Put "only" 70 miles back in the car in a shortened overnight
>> charge. The battery isn't full, but you've still got 120 miles of
>> range. Do your normal (but still more than average) 40 miles the
>> next day; down to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back
>> to full. At no time did you have less than 50 miles of range, and
>> all your charging was at L1 rates only while you were in bed.
>> 
>> Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to 
>> Grandma 200 miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile
>> round trip commute? No. If you need to do that sort of thing
>> often or without warning, you'll need something more.
>> 
>> But most people will look at that and decide they can pay
>> exorbitant rates at somebody else's rapid charger the once or
>> twice a year that sort of thing happens, or rent a car, or
>> otherwise manage, rather than spend thousands on a dedicated
>> charger.
>> 
>> Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and
>> takes a lot of Wh to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and
>> rapid charging is a real way to assuage it. But if you can be
>> confident that you'll wake up every morning with more miles in
>> the "tank" than you'll need to drive, range anxiety vanishes.
>> 
>> ...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery 
>> life
>> 
>> b&
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

You're in a higher echelon, Lawrence.  I want my Leaf to morph into a 
Stella, now!  I'm stuck with  350kw/mile in city, translates to 45 miles 
/16kW.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 13-May-15 9:23:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

The iMev is not efficient.  Stella goes 375 miles on the same 16kw 
pack.  55wh per mile is much better than 250 which is what all the 
steel evs get.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV

The iMev is not efficient.  Stella goes 375 miles on the same 16kw pack.  55wh 
per mile is much better than 250 which is what all the steel evs get.  Lawrence 
Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



Small, light, efficient, yes. Bring 'em on!

We also live in a small town, but it's in the middle of a large metro 
area. Not surprisingly, with that and other considerations our driving 
needs are different. We couldn't make a go of it here with just L1 and 
the LEAF. But with home 6.6kW L2 it's working pretty well.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 9:36 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Jamie K via EV wrote:

All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid
charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go
soon, L1 is punishment charging.


This is the problem that Lawrence Rhodes pointed out. If you build EVs
just like big heavy power-hungry ICEs, then they need lots of power.
That means big expensive battery packs, and big expensive fast chargers.

But if you build small, light, efficient EVs, then all this excess size,
weight, and cost goes away.



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Jamie K via EV wrote:

All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid
charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go
soon, L1 is punishment charging.


This is the problem that Lawrence Rhodes pointed out. If you build EVs 
just like big heavy power-hungry ICEs, then they need lots of power. 
That means big expensive battery packs, and big expensive fast chargers.


But if you build small, light, efficient EVs, then all this excess size, 
weight, and cost goes away.


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done
while the vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1
chargers are today and always will be good enough for that for nearly
everybody... L2 is pretty much guaranteed overkill


This describes my real-world situation. We live in a small town, so the 
Leaf's 100-mile range, and even my LeCar's 50-mile range is perfectly 
fine for daily driving. And, we have an ICE car for long trips or 
emergencies. In fact, our ICE (a 2001 Prius) was down for repairs, so we 
went all winter with *no* ICE car -- just the EVs.


Thus, 99% of our charging is 120vac L1 charging, done at home, 
overnight. We've had our Leaf for a year, and *never* run out of range, 
or needed L2 charging.


The other 1%? I actually have a 240vac L2 charging cord; but have only 
used it a few times as a test to make sure it works. I got it as a 
placebo for my wife's "range anxiety". :-)



but... there will be situations where people will want to charge,
wherever they happen to be, and they're not going to be happy if
it takes more than ten or fifteen minutes.


Right. People who are used to ICEs want their EV to be exactly like 
their ICE car. They want a range of several hundred miles per charge, 
and "fast" refueling at public fuel stations, just like a gas station.


That's fine -- a certain percentage of the market will never be happy 
with EVs until they are "just like ICEs".



The *real* problem is that I don't think that there's an overlap
between what rapid charging is likely to cost and what people are
likely to be willing to pay, especially when they're used to paying
on the order of $0.10 / kWh at home.


Companies that are promoting fast-charging and high fees for electricity 
see them as an opportunity to make Big Profits. ("They're used to paying 
$50 for a tank of gas, so they'll happily pay $10 for a charge that only 
cost us $1 for the electricity.")


But it will be interesting to see how many of these people discover that 
they prefer cheap charging at home overnight, instead of having to drive 
to some public charging station, and risk waiting for hours or paying 
high fees for electricity.



Perhaps our best real-world hope is for Tesla to offer universal
adapters to their superchargers for about the same price as they
charge to upgrade their vehicles to supercharger capability. (Same
price because Tesla's price includes their capital and operating
expenses for the network, not just whatever is done to the car
itself.) Done right, that would allow the minority who need to make
road trips in non-Tesla vehicles to do so...and it even opens up the
possibility for renting the adapters for rare road trips.


It's hard to imagine the auto companies agreeing on any kind of standard 
for fast-charging. They all see it as an opportunity to establish a new 
monopoly. The LAST thing they want is for competitors to be able to use 
"their" chargers (without paying big royalties for the privilege).


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid 
charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go 
soon, L1 is punishment charging.


There are places where L1 works well, for example at an airport where 
the car is going to sit for days. And no doubt there are folks who don't 
need much spontaneity and have consistent daily needs (or another 
vehicle available) so that L1 would suffice.


But while L1 can work for some cases, and it's nice to have in a pinch, 
it clearly limits what can be done with an EV.


I wouldn't try to speak for most people, but I do think that flexible 
(home and away) charging options are big part of the equation for 
growing the EV market.


L2 controllers do not cost thousands, ours was around $1k with 
professional installation and construction permit. Faster home charging 
adds flexibility and makes the car investment worth much more.


When 200 mile ranges become the norm, it will be even more useful to 
charge at home at L2 6.6kW (or more) at around 25 miles per hour (or 
more) instead of trickling in at 5 miles/hour or so - except for those 
who don't mind parking their car much of the time and limiting their EV 
options.


The potential pricing of L3 charging is an interesting topic. Right now 
it's free or not much $$ around here. BTW, Nissan removed their earlier 
warning about L3 charging after monitoring the performance of the packs 
for several years, and perhaps after changing the battery chemistry.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/13/15 7:19 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


It's the outliers that you have to accommodate.


Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging.
When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a
40 kWh (usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the
situation becomes moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual day.
Put "only" 70 miles back in the car in a shortened overnight charge.
The battery isn't full, but you've still got 120 miles of range. Do
your normal (but still more than average) 40 miles the next day; down
to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back to full. At no time
did you have less than 50 miles of range, and all your charging was
at L1 rates only while you were in bed.

Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to
Grandma 200 miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile round
trip commute? No. If you need to do that sort of thing often or
without warning, you'll need something more.

But most people will look at that and decide they can pay exorbitant
rates at somebody else's rapid charger the once or twice a year that
sort of thing happens, or rent a car, or otherwise manage, rather
than spend thousands on a dedicated charger.

Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and takes a
lot of Wh to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and rapid charging
is a real way to assuage it. But if you can be confident that you'll
wake up every morning with more miles in the "tank" than you'll need
to drive, range anxiety vanishes.

...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery
life

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> It's the outliers that you have to accommodate.

Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging.

When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a 40 kWh 
(usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the situation becomes 
moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual day. Put "only" 70 miles back in 
the car in a shortened overnight charge. The battery isn't full, but you've 
still got 120 miles of range. Do your normal (but still more than average) 40 
miles the next day; down to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back to 
full. At no time did you have less than 50 miles of range, and all your 
charging was at L1 rates only while you were in bed.

Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to Grandma 200 
miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile round trip commute? No. If you 
need to do that sort of thing often or without warning, you'll need something 
more.

But most people will look at that and decide they can pay exorbitant rates at 
somebody else's rapid charger the once or twice a year that sort of thing 
happens, or rent a car, or otherwise manage, rather than spend thousands on a 
dedicated charger.

Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and takes a lot of Wh 
to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and rapid charging is a real way to 
assuage it. But if you can be confident that you'll wake up every morning with 
more miles in the "tank" than you'll need to drive, range anxiety vanishes.

...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery life

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Haudy Kazemi via EV

The Leaf is not always 250 Wh/mile (4 mi/kWh). It can be under comfortable
weather and clean roads, but in deep cold, or slushy highways, with the
resistance heat on, even with smooth driving, it can exceed 350 Wh/mile
(2.9 mi/kWh). Aggressive high speed driving in rainy conditions with the
heat on can bring it to 360 Wh/mile (2.8 mi/kWh).

L2 6.6 kW charge rates translate to about 25 miles range per hour for the
Leaf. That's quite an improvement over L1 1.4 kW 4-5 miles range/hour or L2
3.3 kW of 12 miles range/hour.

There is a relationship between trip distance, pack size, and useful charge
times. ICE vehicles have an advantage on 'pack' (tank) size and 'charge'
times. Trip distance is a function of the owner's needs, and in some cases
but not always, planning.

Vehicles with large packs can more easily get by with slower charging for a
greater number of trips, as long as the pack's remaining capacity is always
greater than the length of the next trip, and on average there is
sufficient time allocated in the schedule for it to be plugged in to 'catch
up'. A 200 mile range EV could run a charging deficit for several days and
still be able to make a 100 mile trip without stopping along the way.
Spending half a day/4 hours at the destination on L2 6.6 kW restores this
EV to 100 miles range for a return trip. Visits in half day category
include spending the evening with family/friends, some office
schedules/site visits, museums, zoos, and some amusement park trips. These
EVs really only need L3 fast charging only on the extended road trips that
go beyond their pack capacity, and because they have a large pack, those
trips are quite likely few and far between.

Vehicles with small packs need fast charging in more situations to remain
useful. 1 hour stops at a location are not uncommon: movie theater,
shopping mall, dentist, and may be 20 miles from the next stop/home. A 60
mile range EV needs to keep it's charge level up, and have access to fast
charging to make the same 100 mile trip possible in a reasonable timeframe.
That 60 mile range EV will need an in between stop with DC fast charging to
make the 100 mile trip, unless waiting 2 hours somewhere en route is
acceptable. These EVs run into their pack capacity limits much more
frequently than the longer range models, and on road trips will need that
many more fast chargers to stay useful.

Lastly, people are more accepting of waiting at either end of a trip than
in the middle; this in turn affects the charging needs.

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

>
> So I take it you aren't driving an electric car and using L1 at home to do
> all or most of your driving?
>
> For us it isn't hypothetical or theoretical. And for anyone, please be
> clear that a "typical day" is not a relevant metric for range requirements.
>
> It's the outliers that you have to accommodate. Don't lose sight of that.
>
> Your data about 10,000 miles being 40 miles per day is again getting hung
> up on the average. The average is not the appropriate consideration for
> range, some days will be less, some more, and a savvy (and ultimately
> satisfied) EV buyer must consider the latter cases (or have another vehicle
> that can handle them).
>
> The average doesn't include trips to grandma's in the next town over, or
> the emergency trip to a child's school, or an extra trip home to retrieve a
> forgotten item, or going out again after work, or rushing to a hospital, or
> accommodating any other part of life that may come up occasionally that,
> while above the irrelevant average, are important and maybe even critical.
>
> Some days we might not drive at all, some days we might charge multiple
> times and cover longer distances. On those days, with the 6.6kW charger, we
> are back in business in an hour or so, four at the most. whereas if we were
> at the mercy of slow L1, multiply that times five.
>
> Realistically, on those days we can't wait 5-20ish hours for each
> additional charge. On those days, we can't have the car be out of service
> for anywhere close to that long, that would make it unusable.
>
> If the goal here is to have electric cars be widely adopted and not just
> niche vehicles, flexibility for the busier days is key. Faster charging
> makes that possible. On days when it's not important, no problem. On those
> days when it IS important, what a relief it is to have a usable car.
>
> The top selling EV is the Nissan LEAF, and they get it. They offer 6.6kW
> L2 charging including at home, and much faster L3 charging, both of which
> make our 2013 SV usable for our situation, for everything but longer road
> trips. They are also working toward longer range cars which will also help
> EV adoption, as will the next round from Tesla, GM and hopefully others.
>
> Of course our situation is not everyone's situation, but I wouldn't
> dismiss it as particularly rare either. Everyone's situation is different
> and potential EV owners have to evaluate range ba

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



So I take it you aren't driving an electric car and using L1 at home to 
do all or most of your driving?


For us it isn't hypothetical or theoretical. And for anyone, please be 
clear that a "typical day" is not a relevant metric for range requirements.


It's the outliers that you have to accommodate. Don't lose sight of that.

Your data about 10,000 miles being 40 miles per day is again getting 
hung up on the average. The average is not the appropriate consideration 
for range, some days will be less, some more, and a savvy (and 
ultimately satisfied) EV buyer must consider the latter cases (or have 
another vehicle that can handle them).


The average doesn't include trips to grandma's in the next town over, or 
the emergency trip to a child's school, or an extra trip home to 
retrieve a forgotten item, or going out again after work, or rushing to 
a hospital, or accommodating any other part of life that may come up 
occasionally that, while above the irrelevant average, are important and 
maybe even critical.


Some days we might not drive at all, some days we might charge multiple 
times and cover longer distances. On those days, with the 6.6kW charger, 
we are back in business in an hour or so, four at the most. whereas if 
we were at the mercy of slow L1, multiply that times five.


Realistically, on those days we can't wait 5-20ish hours for each 
additional charge. On those days, we can't have the car be out of 
service for anywhere close to that long, that would make it unusable.


If the goal here is to have electric cars be widely adopted and not just 
niche vehicles, flexibility for the busier days is key. Faster charging 
makes that possible. On days when it's not important, no problem. On 
those days when it IS important, what a relief it is to have a usable car.


The top selling EV is the Nissan LEAF, and they get it. They offer 6.6kW 
L2 charging including at home, and much faster L3 charging, both of 
which make our 2013 SV usable for our situation, for everything but 
longer road trips. They are also working toward longer range cars which 
will also help EV adoption, as will the next round from Tesla, GM and 
hopefully others.


Of course our situation is not everyone's situation, but I wouldn't 
dismiss it as particularly rare either. Everyone's situation is 
different and potential EV owners have to evaluate range based on their 
own range needs (but not merely their average range needs).


Talk to anyone who started out with only L1 (usually to save money) but 
eventually added L2. An EV with faster home charging becomes much more 
flexible and useful and creates happier EV drivers, which helps 
word-of-mouth promotion and growth in the EV market.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 6:04 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an
electric car as our main vehicle.


The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're
putting 80 miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably borderline at
best for you. But, for most people, half that is an unusually busy
driving day. Not all people, of course, by any means...but most.
Remember: most automotive warranties are in the range of 10,000 miles
/ year, which is equal to 40 miles per day, five days a week, fifty
weeks a year; if you're doing more than that, you're probably beyond
your warranty's coverage, which most people don't do.

And, with a 250 Wh / mile vehicle (such as the LEAF), 40 miles is a
mere 10 kWh and well under 7 hours at L1 rates.

If it takes less time to charge the car for an entire day's worth of
driving than it does to get a night's sleep, any sort of argument for
faster charging as the normal mode is damned hard to make.

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric car as 
> our main vehicle.

The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're putting 80 
miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably borderline at best for you. But, 
for most people, half that is an unusually busy driving day. Not all people, of 
course, by any means...but most. Remember: most automotive warranties are in 
the range of 10,000 miles / year, which is equal to 40 miles per day, five days 
a week, fifty weeks a year; if you're doing more than that, you're probably 
beyond your warranty's coverage, which most people don't do.

And, with a 250 Wh / mile vehicle (such as the LEAF), 40 miles is a mere 10 kWh 
and well under 7 hours at L1 rates.

If it takes less time to charge the car for an entire day's worth of driving 
than it does to get a night's sleep, any sort of argument for faster charging 
as the normal mode is damned hard to make.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread paul dove via EV

I'm speaking of normal driving.
Besides, I live in the country and most roads are 55 MPH anyway.
If I drive in town at 40 it goes much further but that goes without saying.

  From: Russ Sciville via EV 
 To: Peri Hartman ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 2:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
   
Yes, needs a gentle foot but often achieved. Checkout SpeakEV forum in the 
Volt/Ampera section.I've achieved 48 miles which includes city driving.
      From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 17:13
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
  
Are you sure about that number?  That would be equivalent to the Leaf 
regularly getting about 120 miles on a charge.  Probably possible on a 
flat road, no stops, at 40mph but not possible for regular driving.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Russ Sciville via EV" 
To: "Paul Dove" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Sent: 13-May-15 9:05:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

>Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery 
>packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in 
>a steel chassis.
>      From: Paul Dove via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 16:59
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
>
>The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw 
>battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries 
>>and the 1 megawatt per car requirement.  It's time to stop the 
>>madness.  As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy 
>>pigs.  85KW!  Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when 
>>there are vehicles that can go further on less energy why not use 
>>efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal.  Stella the 
>>electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge 
>>has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight.  
>>Using the solar panels it can go further and faster.  Engineers seem 
>>to forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the 
>>charging time.  If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen 
>>just by size requiring less than MW consumption.  Think of a ten stall 
>>quick charging station.  That might require 10mw when fully deployed.  
>>Then look at Stella at a Chademo site.  About 20 minutes to 80 
>>percent.  With those new batteries I cou
>  ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of 
>electricity.  So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps 
>on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles 
>.16 or so and stop making these energy hogs.  Efficiency not Mega 
>Watts.    Lawrence RhodesStella Solar Powered Car
>>
>>  |  |
>>  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
>>  | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the 
>>Stella, the first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow 
>>from TechCrunch TV |
>>  |  |
>>  | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo |
>>  |  |
>>  |  |
>>
>>
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>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



Charging associated with hotels seems like a good idea for road trips.

For day-to-day local use, do you primarily drive an EV where you use L1 
charging at home or are you talking theoretically?


I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric 
car as our main vehicle. Approximately 22 hours of L1 would be a long 
time to be plugged in. Even 10 hours for a lesser charge would be 
unworkable for us. Such long charge times take the car out of commission 
when it's needed.


Having only L1 charging at home wouldn't work for us because it wouldn't 
cover our maximum range needs within a workable amount of time. In 
addition to over night charging opportunities, we also need to be able 
to replenish the charge during the day in a reasonably short amount of 
time.


We don't view our LEAF as just a simple commuter car, it's what we use 
for everything except long road trips. And no, we don't want to stop at 
public chargers unless absolutely necessary. Reasonably fast home 
charging and jumping into a ready-to-go topped up car is very practical.


I'm not convinced that L1 is sufficient for "most people" as a practical 
matter. It could work for a predictable commuting pattern, but L2, 
especially 6.6kWh+, makes EVs more practical for life's unexpected 
twists and turns.


If the goal is just to provide a simple commuter car, sure, that could 
work, but if the goal is to upgrade the general car fleet to electric 
power, faster home charging is part of that equation.


I know a volt owner who started out with L1. But even for the Volt, with 
its gas generator backup, he soon realized home L2 made his car more 
practical (BTW a lot of Volt owners I know suffer from "gas anxiety" - 
they want to avoid burning gas). Count me among those who would like to 
see GM up the V2 Volt's L2 support to something faster than 3.3kW.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 2:00 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


But real range needs are based on maximums.


I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting
that in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be
charged.

My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in
their home, if we're assuming that there are faster charging options
on the road. But the resulting problem is that that sets an
expectation of, say, at $0.10 / kWh and a 50 kWh (usable) pack and
250 wH / mile...a 200-mile range that costs $5 in "fuel" in the
"tank." And what roadside rapid charger of any capability, let alone
a supercharger, can compete with costs like that?

That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and
the minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is
going to be a challenge.

If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger
batteries. If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your
charger can top off overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do
that every day for several days on end. But batteries aren't cheap,
and you've still got a problem for multi-day road trips. Maybe the
hotels invest in rapid chargers that're comfortable putting a
500-mile charge into a typical car over the course of eight hours,
and the expense is included in the room rate? Because, even at 250 wH
/ mile, you're still looking at 70A @ 220V for that, more than is
realistic for any home charger.

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread paul dove via EV

No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery.
You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 
40 MPH.
I was speaking of normal driving.
  From: Russ Sciville 
 To: Paul Dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
   
Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs 
and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel 
chassis.
 

 From: Paul Dove via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 16:59
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
   
The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery 
and charges in 30 min on chase mo.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 
> megawatt per car requirement.  It's time to stop the madness.  As much as I 
> love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs.  85KW!  Yes much better than 
> a gas car of any size but when there are vehicles that can go further on less 
> energy why not use efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal. 
>  Stella the electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar 
> Challenge has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight.  
> Using the solar panels it can go further and faster.  Engineers seem to 
> forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the charging 
> time.  If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen just by size 
> requiring less than MW consumption.  Think of a ten stall quick charging 
> station.  That might require 10mw when fully deployed.  Then look at Stella 
> at a Chademo site.  About 20 minutes to 80 percent.  With those new batteries 
> I cou
 ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of 
electricity.  So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, 
reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so 
and stop making these energy hogs.  Efficiency not Mega Watts.    Lawrence 
RhodesStella Solar Powered Car
> 
> |  |
> |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
> | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the Stella, the 
> first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow from TechCrunch TV |
> |  |
> | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo |
> |  |
> |  |
> 
> 
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV

State opf Maryland study came up with only 0.3% of the need is fast
charging.  This was from a total indepth DOT transportation and counting
of vehicle statistics on all roads in the state.

BOb

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:00 PM
To: Jamie K; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> But real range needs are based on maximums.

I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that
in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be charged.

My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in their
home, if we're assuming that there are faster charging options on the
road. But the resulting problem is that that sets an expectation of, say,
at $0.10 / kWh and a 50 kWh (usable) pack and 250 wH / mile...a 200-mile
range that costs $5 in "fuel" in the "tank." And what roadside rapid
charger of any capability, let alone a supercharger, can compete with
costs like that?

That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and the
minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is going to be
a challenge.

If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger
batteries. If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your
charger can top off overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do that
every day for several days on end. But batteries aren't cheap, and you've
still got a problem for multi-day road trips. Maybe the hotels invest in
rapid chargers that're comfortable putting a 500-mile charge into a
typical car over the course of eight hours, and the expense is included in
the room rate? Because, even at 250 wH / mile, you're still looking at 70A
@ 220V for that, more than is realistic for any home charger.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

To give an illustration of how high the need is for fast charging:
I have at least 3 L2 chargers since 2 years and I have not installed any of 
them yet,
since overnight L1 charging is more than I need for my daily driving needs.
Of course, I plan to install at least one L2 station later this year when
I am pulling wire from the service panel anyway to a small load center in
my garage, so I will have an AC disconnect for the solar inverter and the
presence of a load center allows me to add an RV style NEMA 14-50 outlet
to plug in a L2 charger.
Any time that I come home with batteries depleted and still needing to make
a long trip, well - those times I will hop into the Prius.
But I rarely drive the Prius and I do use my EV truck on a daily basis,
so that should tell you a bit about the sufficiency of L1 charging.

P.S. and yes, I occasionally need to get creative with charging while I am
running about, but the great thing about L1 is that every single house,
office, school and other meeting place is actually equipped with these outlet
that allows recharging using a simple 100ft extension cord.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jamie K via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

The assumption of what "nearly everyone needs in a day" is based on averages, 
right?

Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real range 
needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume that averages 
define the actual range needs of most people.

Further, it matters how often people need to hop in the car and run an errand, 
handle an emergency or drive to the next town. Faster L2 charging frees up the 
car for more trips in a day, and L3 opens the portal to nearby intercity trips. 
Supercharging opens the portal to interstate trips. All of these charging 
options make an EV that much more practical.

For the Volt there's a 300 mile generator included, so it's OK to design for 
"most trips." But for a BEV, the driver must consider the maximum trip required 
or have another vehicle to pick up that slack.

Cheers,
  -Jamie

On 5/13/15 1:08 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
> On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:
>
>> Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody 
>> and L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?
>
> Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 
> 20 kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as 
> many miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given 
> the types of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was 
> advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's 
> still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as "almost good 
> enough for 100% electric for almost everybody."
>
> Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 
> 40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an 
> EV that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?
>
> Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of 
> extra money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves 
> them with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day 
> before?
>
> b&
>

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lawrence Harris via EV

The normal verbiage used is average and you are correct (I think) in pointing 
out that if a BEV is to be your only vehicle you might want to look at average 
plus 2 standard deviations which would cover 95% of your travels and leave only 
5% needing to use public transit or a rental vehicle.  In my case I have a 
second vehicle and so use that for extended trips and can live with the average 
plus 1 standard deviation as my range goals.

Lawrence

> On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> The assumption of what "nearly everyone needs in a day" is based on averages, 
> right?
> 
> Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real 
> range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume that 
> averages define the actual range needs of most people.
> 
> Further, it matters how often people need to hop in the car and run an 
> errand, handle an emergency or drive to the next town. Faster L2 charging 
> frees up the car for more trips in a day, and L3 opens the portal to nearby 
> intercity trips. Supercharging opens the portal to interstate trips. All of 
> these charging options make an EV that much more practical.
> 
> For the Volt there's a 300 mile generator included, so it's OK to design for 
> "most trips." But for a BEV, the driver must consider the maximum trip 
> required or have another vehicle to pick up that slack.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> 
> 
> On 5/13/15 1:08 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
>> On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:
>> 
>>> Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody 
>>> and L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?
>> 
>> Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 
>> 20 kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as 
>> many miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given 
>> the types of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was 
>> advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's 
>> still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as "almost good 
>> enough for 100% electric for almost everybody."
>> 
>> Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more 
>> than 40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so 
>> in an EV that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?
>> 
>> Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of 
>> extra money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always 
>> leaves them with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of 
>> the day before?
>> 
>> b&
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> But real range needs are based on maximums.

I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that 
in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be charged.

My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in their home, if 
we're assuming that there are faster charging options on the road. But the 
resulting problem is that that sets an expectation of, say, at $0.10 / kWh and 
a 50 kWh (usable) pack and 250 wH / mile...a 200-mile range that costs $5 in 
"fuel" in the "tank." And what roadside rapid charger of any capability, let 
alone a supercharger, can compete with costs like that?

That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and the 
minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is going to be a 
challenge.

If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger batteries. 
If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your charger can top off 
overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do that every day for several days 
on end. But batteries aren't cheap, and you've still got a problem for 
multi-day road trips. Maybe the hotels invest in rapid chargers that're 
comfortable putting a 500-mile charge into a typical car over the course of 
eight hours, and the expense is included in the room rate? Because, even at 250 
wH / mile, you're still looking at 70A @ 220V for that, more than is realistic 
for any home charger.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



The assumption of what "nearly everyone needs in a day" is based on 
averages, right?


Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real 
range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume 
that averages define the actual range needs of most people.


Further, it matters how often people need to hop in the car and run an 
errand, handle an emergency or drive to the next town. Faster L2 
charging frees up the car for more trips in a day, and L3 opens the 
portal to nearby intercity trips. Supercharging opens the portal to 
interstate trips. All of these charging options make an EV that much 
more practical.


For the Volt there's a 300 mile generator included, so it's OK to design 
for "most trips." But for a BEV, the driver must consider the maximum 
trip required or have another vehicle to pick up that slack.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 1:08 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:


Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and L2 being 
overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?


Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 kWh you 
get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as many miles as nearly 
everybody is going to need in a day, especially given the types of efficiency figures 
we're headed towards and that Lawrence was advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. 
Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt 
as "almost good enough for 100% electric for almost everybody."

Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 
40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an EV 
that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?

Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of extra 
money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves them 
with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day before?

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV

It is actually 14.4 kWh from 110V/12A.  Most people have 15A circuits and 
shouldn't draw more than 12A.

When I first got my Tesla, I was charging on 110V and having some trouble 
keeping up.  My normal commute is 50 miles round trip, plus side trips.  The 
Tesla has about 250-300 wh per mile.

With L2 charging, there is no problem, even after fully depleting the pack.  It 
fully charged overnight.

I do agree that smaller, lighter cars and better efficiency would be helpful.  
However, I'm not sure whether a cD less than 0.22 will be enough like a car to 
be practical and accepted.   Looking through the lists of cars below, most cars 
with a drag coefficient less than 0.25 are concept cars.  The Tesla Model S is 
actually pretty good at 0.24. Its biggest problem is its size and weight.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

On May 13, 2015 1:08:06 PM MDT, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
>On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:
>
>> Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly
>everybody and L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?
>
>Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that
>the 20 kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good
>enough for as many miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day,
>especially given the types of efficiency figures we're headed towards
>and that Lawrence was advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles.
>Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, the range that Chevy
>targeted for the Volt as "almost good enough for 100% electric for
>almost everybody."
>
>Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive
>more than 40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want
>to do so in an EV that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?
>
>Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots
>of extra money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging
>always leaves them with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at
>the end of the day before?
>
>b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Russ Sciville via EV

Yes, needs a gentle foot but often achieved. Checkout SpeakEV forum in the 
Volt/Ampera section.I've achieved 48 miles which includes city driving.
  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 17:13
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
   
Are you sure about that number?  That would be equivalent to the Leaf 
regularly getting about 120 miles on a charge.  Probably possible on a 
flat road, no stops, at 40mph but not possible for regular driving.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Russ Sciville via EV" 
To: "Paul Dove" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Sent: 13-May-15 9:05:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

>Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery 
>packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in 
>a steel chassis.
>      From: Paul Dove via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 16:59
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
>
>The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw 
>battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries 
>>and the 1 megawatt per car requirement.  It's time to stop the 
>>madness.  As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy 
>>pigs.  85KW!  Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when 
>>there are vehicles that can go further on less energy why not use 
>>efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal.  Stella the 
>>electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge 
>>has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight.  
>>Using the solar panels it can go further and faster.  Engineers seem 
>>to forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the 
>>charging time.  If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen 
>>just by size requiring less than MW consumption.  Think of a ten stall 
>>quick charging station.  That might require 10mw when fully deployed.  
>>Then look at Stella at a Chademo site.  About 20 minutes to 80 
>>percent.  With those new batteries I cou
>  ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of 
>electricity.  So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps 
>on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles 
>.16 or so and stop making these energy hogs.  Efficiency not Mega 
>Watts.    Lawrence RhodesStella Solar Powered Car
>>
>>  |  |
>>  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
>>  | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the 
>>Stella, the first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow 
>>from TechCrunch TV |
>>  |  |
>>  | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo |
>>  |  |
>>  |  |
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and 
> L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?

Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 
kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as many 
miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given the types 
of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was advocating. At 
250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, 
the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as "almost good enough for 100% 
electric for almost everybody."

Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 
40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an EV 
that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?

Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of extra 
money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves them 
with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day before?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.



Good points about the importance of low weight and improved CD, 
Lawrence. If the Tesla Model 3 can be more efficient than the Model S, 
that would help get the price down from Model S levels while still 
maintaining their desired range. Carrying fewer batteries would help 
further with the weight side of the equation. It will be interesting to 
see what they can accomplish.


Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly 
everybody and L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?


I can tell you that the 6.6kW L2 charging ability _at home_ is what 
makes our 2013 LEAF practical for our use.


There are days when we charge several times, from home. Even 3.3kW L2 
would make the LEAF much less useful. Relying on slow L1 would make it 
necessary to drive another car much of the time.


Once there's a 160+ miles/charge LEAF with a larger battery pack, L1 
would be even less practical since it would take days to charge from empty.


Finally, L3 is what makes our LEAF practical for trips to nearby towns, 
where we can charge quickly near the destination in order to make the 
return trip. Having just L1 would eliminate the LEAF from that use case 
entirely, and even 6.6kW L2 would generally be too slow.


For longer road trips the supercharging approach works for the Model S, 
and it could work even better for more people given higher efficiency, 
lower cost vehicles in the future. The Model S is high performance but 
low efficiency.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 11:58 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done
while the vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1
chargers are today and always will be good enough for that for nearly
everybody, and L2 is pretty much guaranteed overkill for nearly all
the rest.



...but...unless the per-charge mileage is in the four-digit range,
there will be situations where people will want to charge, wherever
they happen to be, and they're not going to be happy if it takes more
than ten or fifteen minutes. And 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60
kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still
in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting.

The *real* problem is that I don't think that there's an overlap
between what rapid charging is likely to cost and what people are
likely to be willing to pay, especially when they're used to paying
on the order of $0.10 / kWh at home. And with low demand, the prices
would have to be even higher since they won't be spread out over as
many customers, driving down demand even further.

But without the option for rapid charging, a small but significant
minority of the miles people unthinkingly drive today simply can't be
done in an electric vehicle, creating a chicken-and-egg problem.

That's part of Tesla's marketing brilliance with their own rapid
charger network, but I don't know that it's something that can
realistically be made universal.

Perhaps our best real-world hope is for Tesla to offer universal
adapters to their superchargers for about the same price as they
charge to upgrade their vehicles to supercharger capability. (Same
price because Tesla's price includes their capital and operating
expenses for the network, not just whatever is done to the car
itself.) Done right, that would allow the minority who need to make
road trips in non-Tesla vehicles to do so...and it even opens up the
possibility for renting the adapters for rare road trips.

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.