Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:30, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs And what is responsible for that transcendental truth? Like I said, useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing. If arithmetical truth makes sense for you, and if you are a machine, you are assuming, apparently without knowing, a transcendental truth. Thatis: a notion of truth which is far beyond your computability and provability ability. What is responsible for our belief in it is an interesting question, but we know that without that belief/assumption, we cannot get it at all. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. [...] it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience In those papers are you as sloppy in your use of pronouns as on this list? You are the one confusing the 1p and 3p use of the pronoun, as you have illustrated repeatedly. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:35, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. Without fairy tales. Nice for you. But religion and theology are used in the large greek general sense. Thanks to take this into account in future response. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:36, Richard Ruquist wrote: I believe in science. That is my religion. Yes. Religion is no more than the idea that science put some light on *something* beyond ourself. As Einstein said : religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:38, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, That is your dogma. Religion is based on experience and dialog for the founder of science and modern theology, which is forbidden since about 1500 years. Bruno science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:11, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 16:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Alberto, I agree with you that religion cannot be avoided in this sense. Here's a funny example: The Leipzig secular solstice celebration: http://lesswrong.com/meetups/u6 Here's a video of some guy who's trying to become a priest for atheists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vIFloLATxo (I still have some hope that the guy is a comedian, in which case he's a genius) One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. Everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience. This would change the world faster and better than any ideology. All religions have their psychedelic substances. Christianism is mainly wine (Christ blood!), although some pretended that Jesus took magic shrooms. Cannabis would already change a lot, and salvia, often called a medication to cure atheism (!) could bring much more change. Quite possibly. I heard a guy who researches compared religions make an interesting case that colourfully wrapped gifts under the christmas tree represent magic mushrooms -- stemming from a pagan tradition from cold European countries were magic mushrooms will, indeed, grow under pine trees in winter. Of course this is just a case where Christianism assimilated a pagan ritual. Interesting, Bruno Telmo. Bruno Telmo. On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Two more remarks: I´m astonished contemplating how people can contemplate with horror the belief in a god that they thing that it does not exist and accept the belief in worldly lies and praise completely invented myths about their favorite heroes Even if they know that are false. That Kim Jon Il wrote a mean of tree books a day is incredible for them but there are equally fantastic histories and Myths widely believed that would make Chesterton crap up. The wishfulthinker fall in tears when pronouncing his sacred capitalized worlds: People, Democracy, Equalty Human Rights and so on. In the past, Socialism, Worker Class and such craps motivated the same heart lifts. Today even the Terrorists invoke what they call Democracy with passion. But in his country, like in any other, the same families alternate in government, with a few exceptions, no matter the kind or regime and the political party. All are equals except that some are more equal than others. Perhaps things are closer to the Ancient Regime rather than to the myths of his utopic society. The more the utopics are in power, the more the ancient regime (that they had in the imagination) returns. Perhaps all such elevated concepts are not part of the reality but ideological constructions and their most known advocates, just power seekers that may deserve the worship of the wishfulthinkers? I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. In general, platonism has been the victim of the Aristotelian dogma, and has never been dogmatic, although if you serach, you might find exceptions, I guess. Bruno Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... That's not the case for health either today. You confuse a branch of knowledge with the same when used by bandits and special interest. That's attitude helps the bandits to keep the branch in their dogmatic perverse forms. Bruno Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? As soon as you qualify yourself as belonging to one religious group, then that means you follow a set of principle defining such religious group and so following some dogma. If not, why qualifying you in the first place, you could as well belongs to the other group. Quentin In general, platonism has been the victim of the Aristotelian dogma, and has never been dogmatic, although if you serach, you might find exceptions, I guess. Bruno Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? Because if atheist had done what you advocate, church would still burn them in 2013... Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:36, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrot I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs, which is beyond their beliefs. For the arithmetical machine that would be Peano's axioms and the rules of inference. No, it is the standard model of those axioms. I don't see that they are either transcendental or true? If we are machine, we cannot define that standard model. We can do it, because we believe in more than arithmetical truth; but with comp, this is just a differentiation between ontology and epistemology, which needs the non effective transcendental higher order logic and set theories. Peano axioms are not transcendental, but their intended meaning is. The space of such true but non rationally communicable truth is axiomatized, at the propositional level, by G* minus G, and this permits a transparent interpretation of Plotinus theology in arithmetic, and this illustrates already the fact that computationalism leads to a Platonist theology, and contradicts the common Aristotelian metaphysics/theology implicit among many scientists. But these transcendental, i.e. unprovable, truths are rather trivial: This sentence cannot be proven. equivalent to I am consistent. That is not trivial. They are not TRANSCENDENTAL the way theologians mean How can you know that? - beyond the natural world and edifying of human experience. Yes. bruno Brent The experience of God, in the large sense I have given is part of the data in the puzzle. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. This shows also that arithmetic explains not only the apparent existence of matter (constructively, and thus making comp testable), but it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience, and mystical type of knowledge/beliefs/comprehension, making some other aspect of comp testable in some first person sense. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. Well, it is a consequence of QM without collapse, or more simply, elementary arithmetic (and comp). But you need faith to believe in them and their meaning/models. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Me neither, but if comp is true, there is not much choice, and the shape of the immortalities possible is complex and amenable to mathematical studies. Bruno Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:50, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But what has happened is that science has taken away more and more of their domain, It was in the domain at the start. Science is only a lamp, not a truth. It is a way to look at any domain. And the way science looks at a domain is to make models and test them by observation and manipulation. We test theories. We cannot test models. But we interpret and give meaning to the theories, and thus believe in the model or some model. If the models are comprehensive, consilient, have predictive power, then they are tentatively accepted in sense of being assumed in support of other studies. That's why I think that when we are able to make robots that behave like humans we will have models of conscious thought that are much more fine grained than we do now. But conversely we will not longer think What is consciousness to be sensible question. I guess you do miss something in the UDA. If we are machine, we do have a testable theory of consciousness-and-matter. And it has the shape of a neoplatonist theory. That fact is not remarkable. If all correct machine discover that number theology, it is normal that the most less self-referentially wrong human get it when looking inward. It is just that very often humans get attached to some theory, and are followed by the don't ask attitude by those who coerce for some statu quo. And very often humans have gotten attached to the wrong question and have wasted centuries theorizing over answers. UDA shows that we have no choice in the matter. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:52, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/5/2013 12:53 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:... Probabilities add up to one... Which probabilities are you referring to here? The probabilities applies only on your continuation, the partitioning of the infinity of continuations where you're alive are the probabilities to find yourself in such continuation or such other, those adds up to one... Think of it like this: There are 10,000 explanations for your current experience. 9,950 are various physical and biological instances of you living on Earth, 30 instances are various ancestor simulations run by future humans, 15 are by advanced aliens in other universes, and 5 are by Drelb-like entities. If you shoot yourself in the head with a quantum gun, 4,975 of the 9,950 biological instances are dead, and 25 of the 50 simulated ones awaken from the simulation. You pull the trigger again, and 2488 of the 4975 biological survivors from the first trigger pull are dead, and 13 of the 25 simulated survivors wake up from their simulation. Note that with each trigger pull, the proportion who are still alive (either in the simulation or having awoken from it) remains the same: at 50, while the population of physical/biological entities is cut in half each time. After another 12 or so trigger pulls the only remaining survivors will be those that were simulated, and all of them now find themselves in a different realm. ?? They were in a different realm all along. But it was subjectively indistinguishable, as it is the execution of same program. When some of the programs stop, other incarnations of it continue. yes, it is the differentiation/bifurcation false debate. Same in comp and QM. Bruno Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum gun is (approximately) halved. ? Your relative measure on the continuations where you survive remains constant and equal to one. We cannot count the cul-de-sac reality (and that is why Bp Dt can give a quantum measure). Some absolute measure does not make sense. Why not? It measures something different, but I don't see why it doesn't make sense. Describe an experience which gives sense to absolute measure. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each hour having a 50% chance of poisoning you), what would you predict experience to be at the end of that day? I like to answer this by this: At the end of the day I feel well and kiss the cat, together with a total amnesia of having gazed, which begin by a nausea, vomiting, cruel pain and agonizing death. I would put quantum flowers on 'his' quantum tomb to have died for me. Respect for the little kitty too. Would you say there is a greater probability of ending up in a strange and different place on this day, compared to normal days when you don't face a 999,999 out of 1,000,000 chance of being killed? It depends on the killing ability of the gas used. Are you OK for this? I pay you 10,000$ for accepting to sleep one night in my sleep laboratory, I tell you in advance that you will live a quite intense nightmare, but I promise you that you will be 100% amnesic of it and you will unaffected by the experience, are you OK? $10,000 is a lot of money, it's hard to think of a nightmare so bad (even without the amnesia) that would not make it worth taking the money. If the nightmare is *very* painful ... In the equivalent example of torture + amnesia, under which I would be willing to pay $10,000 to avoid to avoid the torture (with or without amnesia), then I think the logical decision is still to reject the torture and $10,000 even if it comes with amnesia. OK. The slowing of the annihilation illustrates something weird. Before the experience the probability are one halve that you will feel either just passing a boring day with a cat in some chamber, or going through a slow unpleasant (ending?) event. Yet the probability that you survive, above one day, the experience seems to be still one. It is part of a finite path elimination process, from the 1p perspective. It is analogous to the backtracking. I am not sure it is correct as I cannot be sure the agonizing near death experience terminates, and for who? Nothing is simple here. Indeed. I accept *total* annihilation experience only in thought experience! In practice it might not exist. We don't know (and can't know) our substitution level, and it depends on what you are willing to abandon, or to what you identify with is. 1-annihilation experiences are near death experiences. Is it clear that they have endings in the arithmetical reality? Who knows? The same can be asked for some type of dreams, and altered states of consciousness. The way I have for a time looked at is, is there are X instances that explain your current experience. Some may be ordinary while others might be, say a dream. If in your experience, you encounter something you are unlikely to survive ordinarily, like a Mushroom cloud on the horizon, then you will likely next find yourself waking from a dream. (Since all the non-dreaming ordinary explanations are dead). Is there something wrong with this reasoning? Consistent, but not necessarily necessary. There are dreams and dreams. You might awaken in another realm, or in computers build by descendents, etc. And, who knows, you can awaken in some heaven and unconditional love state ... In my opinion, understanding a theorem in arithmetic already provides a glimpse on a deep and atemporal experience, connected to the first person in virtue of an argument. I will need to think more on this. Thanks. OK, bruno Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:23, Quentin Anciaux wrote: It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. It is true that there might be a part of religion which is not corrigible, but consciousness is like that too. Those incorrigible thing exist, and that is why people *can* easily be manipulated by religious institutions. True believers feel alone, and are glad when other fake similar beliefs. But that means they are half awaken, as the most incorrigible assertion on God, is that it cannot be used in *any* terrestrial matter. Again, you confuse a field of inquiry, and its human institutionalisation. Spiritual persons have no public dogma. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 23:47, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like me) agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that we are determined to do it ... I think I agree. My view is that free will is a 1p experience that makes no sense as a 3p concept. OK. (This is slightly nuanceable, but is not important) But here I was arguing against a religious claim. Proposing that there is a God that is testing us, and that the meaning of or lives is to pass this test is a strong claim, Indeed. one that can deeply affect people's behaviours. That might be the reason of its existence. From an omniscient God's perspective, everything already happened. Like with comp, all the arithmetical truth are already decided, from outside, but it looks different from inside. Trying to recover possible wishes of an entity at this God's level and introducing them at the level of our experience seems nonsensical. Yes. like it is nonsensical to justify some behavior by saying I was just obeying to the SWE. On the other hand, this type of claim sounds suspiciously convenient for some very human purposes... Alas, yes. bruno Telmo. Bruno And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo.
Re: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad
On 06 Dec 2013, at 02:15, Roger Clough wrote: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad Materialists spend much effort on trying to show that reality is simply physics. But the philosophy of Plato, Leibniz, Kant, and now Heidegger shows that materialism and analytic philosophy is incomplete, since it omits mind from reality. The notion of matter does not even make sense, if we assume mechanism. It is like phlogiston or ether. It is not much incomplete than epistemologically inconsistent. Bruno Leibniz modeled reality as material bodies in the dualism of a monad, which is the corresponding mental being of matter. The matter is in spacetime, the monad is outside of spacetime. Heidegger's dasein is a combination of the german words da, meaning there, and sein meaning being or mental. The da is in spacetime and the sein is outside of spacetime, so a dasein is a monad. Thus Heidegger's universe is essentially the same as Leibniz's, an infinite collection of monads or daseins. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad
On 06 Dec 2013, at 02:21, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 14:15, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad Materialists spend much effort on trying to show that reality is simply physics. But the philosophy of Plato, Leibniz, Kant, and now Heidegger shows that materialism and analytic philosophy is incomplete, since it omits mind from reality. For some unaccountable reason you have left Bruno off your list. Thanks Liz :) Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 6 December 2013 21:45, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum gun is (approximately) halved. ? Your relative measure on the continuations where you survive remains constant and equal to one. We cannot count the cul-de-sac reality (and that is why Bp Dt can give a quantum measure). Some absolute measure does not make sense. Why not? It measures something different, but I don't see why it doesn't make sense. Describe an experience which gives sense to absolute measure. I assume you mean experiment (although an experience would also be interesting :) In an uncountably infinite multiverse, the relative measure of me, humanity, Earth, the galaxy and probably the Hubble sphere is effectively zero. At least, I think it is. In a quantised multiverse which allows every instance of a finite number of 'worlds' to exist (a very large number, of course) then the absolute measure of, say, me is finite (though very small), and one might in principle be able to work out what it is. But in a quantised multiverse I'm not sure QTI would hold. Or *can* the multiverse be quantised in that sense? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each hour having a 50% chance of poisoning you), what would you predict experience to be at the end of that day? I like to answer this by this: At the end of the day I feel well and kiss the cat, together with a total amnesia of having gazed, which begin by a nausea, vomiting, cruel pain and agonizing death. I would put quantum flowers on 'his' quantum tomb to have died for me. Respect for the little kitty too. I don't see this. Surely you are far more likely to have experienced the nausea and pain, and to have nevertheless survived somehow - by a very unlikely chance - than to have lucked out and not been gassed at all? This is the problem with QTI - it seems to me almost inevitable that one will only survive in a very unfortunate state, at least for a long time. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The way I have for a time looked at is, is there are X instances that explain your current experience. Some may be ordinary while others might be, say a dream. If in your experience, you encounter something you are unlikely to survive ordinarily, like a Mushroom cloud on the horizon, then you will likely next find yourself waking from a dream. (Since all the non-dreaming ordinary explanations are dead). Is there something wrong with this reasoning? It certainly worked for George Orr. (Generally, and then I woke up is the worst cop-out in literature, but somehow it works for Lewis Carroll and Ursula le Guin) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run
Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run JOHN-- Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's universe] coming from a staunch Republican conservative govt minimizer. Perhaps an atheist is just someone who thinks something the size of the whole universe can operate on its own laws without a lot of direct interference? ROGER- According to my understanding of Leibniz and the Bible, after God had created the universe in six days, he wrote a computer program called the pre-established harmony on the seventh to run the universe forever onward and rested. He's still resting. In this program God allowed for free will and knew what we would do but did not cause us to do so. Luther believed that our free will only applied to everyday affairs, but in matters of salvation (good or bad) he chose for us. Note that God is in what Leibniz called the world of necessary logic, which is timeless (eternal), so that knowing before-hand is simply part of God's nature. JOHN ---Also interesting. The universe does indeed seem to operate on some pretty iron-clad laws, and there are some who suspect that perhaps that's because the only way to have a universe that will support/create life is to have almost exactly the laws (and special constants) that govern our universe. ROGER-- That would be the pre-established harmony. Nonliving entities move by deterministic or efficient causation, but life does not operate by such iron-clad laws, it operates by what Aristotle called final causation, which means it is goal-oriented and purposeful. It therefore has to have innate intelligence. JOHN- Personally, although I think the idea of a personal God is important, I do have concerns as to why an omnipotent, universal overseer who has already so cleverly tuned the universe to such perfection would need to continually need to tweak things locally. Seems very much like we need God far more than HE needs us. ROGER - The tweaking is indeed local, but it has already been programmed into the pre-established harmony. JOHN - So, in order to consider a personal God, it seems to me that the real reason for locality is more about how HE wants me to become more like HIS ideal, and is offering opportunities. ROGER- No, we have free will, at least to some extent. JOHN-- Given that HE is out of time and space, that is a pretty neat trick, and I find it highly unlikely that any of HIS creations are at all cognizant of how or why or what HIS purposes are. But, I think the Universe itself is understandable, and probably exists as one of the simplest sets of laws that can work. ROGER-- Out of time and space means in eternity. The world isn't all law-governed (deterministic), for both man and nature have some degree of unpredictability, but this has been pre-programmed into Leibniz's pre-established harmony. JOHN- There is really already a lot of evidence to support that idea. And some evidence to support the idea that our whole universe is a tiny part of everything. Already, it is pretty clear that most people really still have no concept of the scale of our little visible part of our universe, either in time or space. Most never even look up to see that there are actually more stars (and star systems) than there are grains of sand on every beach in our entire world - and that our entire world is less than a dust mote, even within our solar system, much less in the real immensity of space and time. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Science comes from latin and means knowledge... if some wants to use science as a cover for something else, that doesn't redefine what it is... science is an attitude towards pursuit of knowledge... Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. That's why I say QI is a religion. Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. Empiricism is part of science, but not all... Not all knowledge can be through empiricism. It is restricted You restrict it to it... to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. If you don't dispute it, it would. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. You say it can't be without proving it, as such I'll stay open to the possibility it can. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. Stubborn person exists everywhere, they can use science as a cover, that doesn't render their argument correct nor redefine what science is. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. You misunderstand what I'm saying... you can discuss these thing... while you can't discuss a dogma and saying you're still following that particular religion who holds that dogma. Quentin Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Yes, that's called hypothesis, hypothesis can go to oblivion... Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Who is pretending such a thing ? Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. That's why I say QI is a religion. QI is an hypothesis, that could be false... it's not a religion. I see lot of people would like to conflate hypothesis with dogma and religion with science... but it's rethorical. Quentin Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 4:07 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. Jason Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. Jason Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.comjasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. If you're alone, it's not a religion. A religion is not just a set of belief, but it comes with codification, and also those codifications /beliefs are shared between members of that religion. What you call religion are a just set of beliefs. As the usage of god for UR, dogma for hypothesis, using religion for that is bad... it's just to make a giant salad with word that lose their intended meanings. Quentin Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. Jason Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.comjasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? I said *a* way. Religion on the contrary is not *a* way, religion will not ask you to doubt it. Quentin Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. Jason Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:52, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Science comes from latin and means knowledge... *that* *is* *the* error of the latine. They misunderstanding of the greeks and indians. For the platonist, and the popperians notably, science is *only* beliefs, public theories, I would be a more severe teacher, I would ask you to present them in first order languages and theories (which is tiedous but easily feasible for a large part of the current science (set of beliefs in fashion today). Science is not ma = KmM/r^2. Science (well understood) is only ma = KmM/r^2? Science is not universe Science is not multiverse Science is universe?, multiverse? something else?, ... They are quite important longstanding theories in which we believe and there is nothing wrong in building on them, but we must be able to retrieve beliefs to stand the facts and the theories assumed. There is no science. There are only field of inquiries, and humans having a scientific attitude. Scientific attitude is field independent. Research can be refrained only by abuse of authority. Genuine believer hides nothing and don't fear reason. To separate science and theology is like saying OK !, on the ultra- fundamental questions we tolerate the dogma, the authoritative argument, the arbitrariness, etc.. That is like forbidding research, and the application of reason, in a field, to perpetuate the oppression of the authoritative argument in it. With comp, theological truth extends science, but that extension is relative, and machine with big provability means, like ZF, can study the theology of the simpler machines, like PA. As far as lifting such theology on oneself is an entirely personal matter and an ability of recognizing one self in an other. Keep in mind that as a platonist, the theology associated to the machine M is the truth about the machine M (the set of true arithmetical sentence concerning machine M). The whole truth. Not just what the NSA could collected. The whole truth ands its determination in the most probable continuations. It can be the set of all diophantine equation solved with M as parameter, for example). That a very complex non computable set. In fact the theology gives what you can hope assuming you are correct (including on the substitution level for example). But theology here is a fundamental science, made indirectly testable by giving constraints (at the least) on physics, making the law basically invariant for the choice of the base phi_i, for example. I am agnostic. But I do believe in elementary arithmetic, and this astonished me, and makes me suspect of something. if some wants to use science as a cover for something else, that doesn't redefine what it is... science is an attitude towards pursuit of knowledge... I agree with this. Again why not favor that attitude in all domains? No need of ontological commitment. Only hypotheses and an open mind and a listening to the others, taking into account that the subject is a bit taboo, for historical and psychologically normal reasons. To separate theology from science seems spiritually immature to me. For religion, it is perhaps different. Like Plotinus I am skeptical on theurgy, unless they do succeed in doing it with the right sense of humor, if spiritually mature enough. No problem with celebrations and contemplations, and sharing of technics and theories. But I am not sure, abuse can lead to brainwashing by repetitions. Bruno Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 06 Dec 2013, at 11:07, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 21:45, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum gun is (approximately) halved. ? Your relative measure on the continuations where you survive remains constant and equal to one. We cannot count the cul-de-sac reality (and that is why Bp Dt can give a quantum measure). Some absolute measure does not make sense. Why not? It measures something different, but I don't see why it doesn't make sense. Describe an experience which gives sense to absolute measure. I assume you mean experiment (although an experience would also be interesting :) Gosh, someone told me that was the same thing. So you agree that experiences are 1p-experiment, and that experiment = 3p-experience? In an uncountably infinite multiverse, the relative measure of me, humanity, Earth, the galaxy and probably the Hubble sphere is effectively zero. This has no meaning to me. Only relative measure makes senses. At least, I think it is. In a quantised multiverse which allows every instance of a finite number of 'worlds' to exist (a very large number, of course) then the absolute measure of, say, me is finite (though very small), I really cannot make any sense of that. Anyway, if you are Turing emulable, you are plausibly distributed on a continuum of (infinite) computations. And you have no absolute measure. and one might in principle be able to work out what it is. But in a quantised multiverse I'm not sure QTI would hold. OK. In a quantized multiverse, assuming we know our substitution level, one could build an annihilator which guarantied you disappear in all your accessible worlds! But you know that things are reversible, all right. That does not make sense, although it is hard to judge this with comp, despite a shadow of symmetry in all directions might appear at his core physics. Or can the multiverse be quantised in that sense? We just did. Oops! Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:11 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Ah yes I've heard that the gravity at the event horizon can be as weak as you like with a suitably large hole - that you might not even realise you'd crossed it Yes. though surely you'd get some optical effects? If you were falling back first into a Black Hole things that were behind you would start to look as if they were ahead of you, and as you got very close to the event horizon all the light from the entire external universe would be coming to you from a small disk directly in front of you. When you actually crossed the event horizon (the point of no return) the diameter of that disk would shrink to zero and you'd be forever cutoff from the universe you knew. If the Black Hole were large enough you could still be alive when you crossed the event horizon, although a few seconds later tidal forces would rip you apart through spaghettification So the Michell star is effectively like a solid version of a black hole's event horizon. It's more than that, at the event horizon of one of Einstein's Black Holes, even if the gravity was only 1g, you could never escape the Black Hole and return to Earth no matter how powerful your rocket is; on the surface of Michell's dark star even if it was a billion g you could escape if your rocket was powerful enough (assuming a billion g didn't prove harmful to your health). John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 12:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. In other words, what all the rest of the world calls philosophy. Brent Atheism is not a religion, just as a vacant lot is not a type of building, and health is not a form of sickness. --- Jim Heldberg, San Francisco Atheist Coordinator -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Can you refute comp-I? No I can not because of the IHA principle. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. First, because you didn't show that we need faith - only that we need trust. Trust is different than faith; it is tested and earned. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? Because you redefine 'religious' to try to sweep everybody into that category. I might ask, if everybody is religious, then what use is the word - if it conveys no distinction if is meaningless. If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Atheists on this list are, like myself, agnostic about many things. But it would be foolish to believe in the gods of Olympus and the god of Abraham and all those other Big Daddies in the Sky whose worship is denominated theism. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? The use is authoritative because it is ubiquitous; that's how language is. I don't defend it. I look it up in the dictionary. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 06 Dec 2013, at 11:10, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each hour having a 50% chance of poisoning you), what would you predict experience to be at the end of that day? I like to answer this by this: At the end of the day I feel well and kiss the cat, together with a total amnesia of having gazed, which begin by a nausea, vomiting, cruel pain and agonizing death. I would put quantum flowers on 'his' quantum tomb to have died for me. Respect for the little kitty too. I don't see this. Surely you are far more likely to have experienced the nausea and pain, and to have nevertheless survived somehow - by a very unlikely chance - than to have lucked out and not been gassed at all? In the traditional experience, the trigger of the gas capsule is in the state 1/sqrt(2)(will trigger + will not trigger), so you have 1/2 to not be poisoned and 1/2 to be poisoned. the one not poisoned remember nothing of the experience of the one poisoned. This is the problem with QTI - it seems to me almost inevitable that one will only survive in a very unfortunate state, at least for a long time. In the end, it looks like that, but computer science suggest jumps, like sort of 1p-phase transition in decaying universal machine. But it is technically still rather complex. Drugs experience, and sleep, illustrates that few simple 3p change can alter consciousness drastically. Concentrating on the unfortunate state can lead to bad trips and an unfortunate state. Some 1p states are more defined by what you expect than by what you got. (that part of why the logic of Bp Dp differ from Bp). Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 3:59 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. Initial postulates can be tested and justified by predictive success - and in that case they aren't dogma. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 4:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? Plus hypothesizing and testing. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 4:56 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. What are these? Is Bruno getting rid of them? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 7:21 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. And they know that is wrong...how? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 7:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Another attempt to sweep everybody into the religion bin. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. And religion is always ready to provide a final answer, one never to be questioned, because if it's the right answer then it must always have been right. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. I take 'religion' to mean what people refer to when they say they belong to a religion. Brent Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. --- Chaz Bufe -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 10:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is no science. There are only field of inquiries, and humans having a scientific attitude. Scientific attitude is field independent. Research can be refrained only by abuse of authority. Genuine believer hides nothing and don't fear reason. This is really hilarious. On the one hand you want to claim everybody is religious by redefining religion to mean any belief. Then you want to say there is no science - it's just an attitude. Like my attitude that the refrigerator I left in the kitchen is still there. Since I believe it's there that must be a dogma of my religion. It can't be scientific knowledge because that doesn't exist. Brent Philosophy is the systematic abuse of terminology invented for the purpose. --- Arthur Koestler -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On 12/6/2013 12:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_%28mathematics%29 ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum gun is (approximately) halved. ? Your relative measure on the continuations where you survive remains constant and equal to one. We cannot count the cul-de-sac reality (and that is why Bp Dt can give a quantum measure). Some absolute measure does not make sense. Why not? It measures something different, but I don't see why it doesn't make sense. Describe an experience which gives sense to absolute measure. Describe an experience which gives sense to multiverses. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum gun is (approximately) halved. ? Your relative measure on the continuations where you survive remains constant and equal to one. We cannot count the cul-de-sac reality (and that is why Bp Dt can give a quantum measure). Some absolute measure does not make sense. Why not? It measures something different, but I don't see why it doesn't make sense. Describe an experience which gives sense to absolute measure. Isn't this required to prove comp, by looking at the results of running the UD for a long time? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each hour having a 50% chance of poisoning you), what would you predict experience to be at the end of that day? I like to answer this by this: At the end of the day I feel well and kiss the cat, together with a total amnesia of having gazed, which begin by a nausea, vomiting, cruel pain and agonizing death. I would put quantum flowers on 'his' quantum tomb to have died for me. Respect for the little kitty too. I don't see this. Surely you are far more likely to have experienced the nausea and pain, and to have nevertheless survived somehow - by a very unlikely chance - than to have lucked out and not been gassed at all? This is the problem with QTI - it seems to me almost inevitable that one will only survive in a very unfortunate state, at least for a long time. Yes, if QTI, or Computational Immortality are true, then the only way to explain them, given we are not infinitely old, is that we are in a state of amnesia concerning our true history of experiences. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:59, Richard Ruquist wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? In which theory? In comp, comp_i is a theorem, or meta-theorem. The amoeba can prove that IF she survives 24h, then she is in principle immortal. I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. OK. But many believe that comp is the theory of the materialist and of those who believe in mortality. Once we accept mechanism, it becomes a huge complex problem. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. I don't believe in any universe. That's why I say QI is a religion. QM is a religion. QI is a theorem, or meta-theorem in QM. Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. Once you believe a theory applies to something, you do a religious act, in the comp sense of attributing truth or meaning to (syntactical, reperesented) belief. OK. Bruno On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed to admit that there are some things I just don't know. And that makes me much wiser than some on this list, at least I know I don't know shit. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 7 December 2013 09:31, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed to admit that there are some things I just don't know. And that makes me much wiser than some on this list, at least I know I don't know shit. You're too modest, John. I suspect you do know shit. (Even I do, sometimes!) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaoismThe term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code, language, script cannot be told. So in the first two sentences of wiki definition your image of identical, zombified robots following some trivial, fixed, dogmatic theology fanatically, concerning theology and Taoism here in particular, is without support. As with Science, people interpret theology in a variety of ways; more or less literally etc. PGC Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 6 December 2013 06:58, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I think I love you. I've been saying this sort of thing for years, but rarely have I managed to do it so articulately. Awww.. thanks Liz! :) :-) Obviously it will have to be Platonic! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Richard: I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Fine, but to 'think: what is a dogma' you learned as a li'l kid when you had to pray at bedtime. BTW (I never attended Harvard) did they teach you that 'physics' is a dogma? I try to identify 'phisix' as a way to explain poorly understood phenomena in our ignorance - using math as the 'main' tool. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: John, I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:14 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Quentin wrote: *A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion.* *(*addressed to Richard's:I believe in science.That is my religion.) It is a questionable semantic situation what one can call an 'axiom', or even a math-groundrule (like: primes are primes ) what (I think) Bruno would deem so funamental that it cannot be justified into more fundamentals. Richard: you learned your (scientific) dogma-librARY in grade school, or earlier, Quentin - you fell for a philosophical (logistical?) argument that is fictitious. IMO a religion is not based on (a) dogma, it is based on a 'story' what people are willing to accept as a dogma. Then they kill the infidel. Or the gays. Or both. There are diverse gods: some are vain (require adoration and praise plus full obedience from their 'creatures') some are vicious and jealous, some cheat on their spouses, some kill for such. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism The term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* Nothing I say has meaning... great... what's the point ? It's just a sentence that sounds good but is totally empty. So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. Are you saying we can't ? Yes, one hypothesis of science, is that the world is understandable... if it is not, all of what you're saying is useless. Science use hypothesis, not dogma, and yes there are fundamental hypothesis, if the world in fine is shown not to be understandable, science goal will have failed and will not be recoverable. Quentin There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code, language, script cannot be told. So in the first two sentences of wiki definition your image of identical, zombified robots following some trivial, fixed, dogmatic theology fanatically, concerning theology and Taoism here in particular, is without support. As with Science, people interpret theology in a variety of ways; more or less literally etc. PGC Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Re: Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run
So these guys are equating God with the laws of physics, or maybe the origin of the laws of physics? On 7 December 2013 00:07, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: *Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run* JOHN-- Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's universe] coming from a staunch Republican conservative govt minimizer. Perhaps an atheist is just someone who thinks something the size of the whole universe can operate on its own laws without a lot of direct interference? ROGER- According to my understanding of Leibniz and the Bible, after God had created the universe in six days, he wrote a computer program called the pre-established harmony on the seventh to run the universe forever onward and rested. He's still resting. In this program God allowed for free will and knew what we would do but did not cause us to do so. Luther believed that our free will only applied to everyday affairs, but in matters of salvation (good or bad) he chose for us. Note that God is in what Leibniz called the world of necessary logic, which is timeless (eternal), so that knowing before-hand is simply part of God's nature. JOHN ---Also interesting. The universe does indeed seem to operate on some pretty iron-clad laws, and there are some who suspect that perhaps that's because the only way to have a universe that will support/create life is to have almost exactly the laws (and special constants) that govern our universe. ROGER-- That would be the pre-established harmony. Nonliving entities move by deterministic or efficient causation, but life does not operate by such iron-clad laws, it operates by what Aristotle called final causation, which means it is goal-oriented and purposeful. It therefore has to have innate intelligence. JOHN- Personally, although I think the idea of a personal God is important, I do have concerns as to why an omnipotent, universal overseer who has already so cleverly tuned the universe to such perfection would need to continually need to tweak things locally. Seems very much like we need God far more than HE needs us. ROGER - The tweaking is indeed local, but it has already been programmed into the pre-established harmony. JOHN - So, in order to consider a personal God, it seems to me that the real reason for locality is more about how HE wants me to become more like HIS ideal, and is offering opportunities. ROGER- No, we have free will, at least to some extent. JOHN-- Given that HE is out of time and space, that is a pretty neat trick, and I find it highly unlikely that any of HIS creations are at all cognizant of how or why or what HIS purposes are. But, I think the Universe itself is understandable, and probably exists as one of the simplest sets of laws that can work. ROGER-- Out of time and space means in eternity. The world isn't all law-governed (deterministic), for both man and nature have some degree of unpredictability, but this has been pre-programmed into Leibniz's pre-established harmony. JOHN- There is really already a lot of evidence to support that idea. And some evidence to support the idea that our whole universe is a tiny part of everything. Already, it is pretty clear that most people really still have no concept of the scale of our little visible part of our universe, either in time or space. Most never even look up to see that there are actually more stars (and star systems) than there are grains of sand on every beach in our entire world - and that our entire world is less than a dust mote, even within our solar system, much less in the real immensity of space and time. -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?
It's a fascinating concept. What a shame it can't happen in the real world. On 7 December 2013 07:42, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:11 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Ah yes I've heard that the gravity at the event horizon can be as weak as you like with a suitably large hole - that you might not even realise you'd crossed it Yes. though surely you'd get some optical effects? If you were falling back first into a Black Hole things that were behind you would start to look as if they were ahead of you, and as you got very close to the event horizon all the light from the entire external universe would be coming to you from a small disk directly in front of you. When you actually crossed the event horizon (the point of no return) the diameter of that disk would shrink to zero and you'd be forever cutoff from the universe you knew. If the Black Hole were large enough you could still be alive when you crossed the event horizon, although a few seconds later tidal forces would rip you apart through spaghettification So the Michell star is effectively like a solid version of a black hole's event horizon. It's more than that, at the event horizon of one of Einstein's Black Holes, even if the gravity was only 1g, you could never escape the Black Hole and return to Earth no matter how powerful your rocket is; on the surface of Michell's dark star even if it was a billion g you could escape if your rocket was powerful enough (assuming a billion g didn't prove harmful to your health). John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism The term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* Nothing I say has meaning... great... what's the point ? It's just a sentence that sounds good but is totally empty. Nah, Tao can still be spoken, just not eternal. Like we can say set of all sets or all partial recursive functions but it doesn't lead to decidable proof, diagonalization and contradiction, or help us in some absolute sense, even if serving as some pointer. So this doesn't rule out notions like emanation, as posed by Plotinus or arithmetic successor function and multiplication operator, that are, as examples, not or only part, reflection, emanation etc. of that unspeakable name/one/Tao. To confuse this with nihilism is understandable but inappropriate because it does refer to some unnamable principle, where nihilism crudely put, does not. So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. Are you saying we can't ? Yes, one hypothesis of science, is that the world is understandable... if it is not, all of what you're saying is useless. Science use hypothesis, not dogma, and yes there are fundamental hypothesis, if the world in fine is shown not to be understandable, science goal will have failed and will not be recoverable. Agreed, and I don't think the above mentioned theologies would have much of a problem with that... I still don't see how an interpretation of science protects it from being practiced or manipulated dogmatically, same as with theologies though. E.g. with some fundamentally atheist interpretation, it can even seem more treacherous and dishonest by using empirical data as proof of truth because of self-evidence tricks of culture and local biological and predatory circumstance. In this example, Science doesn't lay the ambiguity and controversy of its axioms on the table and can be abused in the same manner as any other system of beliefs. PGC Quentin There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code,
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 16:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. I agree, and that's why the theology of the numbers is *interesting*: it is testable in the usual 3p sharable way. That theology contains physics as a subpart. What is subjective is the appreciation, or not, of the term theology, and that is subjective indeed, but it could also be related to strategy. My difference with Quentin is on that point. But I have already hidden the wording theology for a long time, and that strategy did not really worked, and so I come back to the usual method of choosing word: using the word the most applied by those in the fields or appreciating the subject. Bruno Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 4:07 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
