[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Thank God for Judy.
 
 Ditto. Thank God for Judy. She can mop the floor with Barry with one
 hand tied behind her back and knock down a bourbon while she's at it.

HeHe. ;-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Richard M]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:

 TurquoiseB wrote:
  The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
  Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
  Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
  I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
  other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
  in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
  to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
  and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
  waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
  the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
  which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
  are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
  dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
  it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
  same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
  cooler rebirth.
 Boy Art Bell's cousin sure had an effect on you. :-D
 
 I've mentioned one lucid dream I've had several times on FFL and that 
 was the one with Jesus who looked more like Naveen Andrews than the 
 way that Christianity portrays him.  He told me he wanted to tell me 
 something and I had to walk over to talk to him and there were 
 fundamentalist Christians who seemed to be stuck in the ground telling 
 me I had no right to talk to him.  He just nodded at them in disgust
and 
 said pay no attention to them.   He essentially warned me that things 
 were going to get really bad in the world (and it did happen).  The 
 experience makes it a little difficult for me as I really didn't think 
 there actually was such an individual as Roman history makes no mention 
 of him (and they were good historians) and might actually may be a work 
 of fiction derived possibly from some activist's activities (which
would 
 have been so minor the Romans wouldn't have bothered with a mention)
and 
 a mystic at the time.  Some theologians seem to buy into this idea.


Interesting. I think it points up a curious tension in this thread
between, on the one hand, the idea of cultivating dreams because they
might have the potential to point to something, or to intimate
something profound (though like looking for a black cat through a
very dark glass darkly!). And on the other, trying to take control
over dreams and direct them. I would have thought trying to practise
the latter technique might bollocks up any hope of benefit from the
former? i.e. It is the innocence of the state of dreaming that *may*
allow it to open a door to something? Perhaps.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
 
  I've mentioned one lucid dream I've had several times on 
  FFL and that was the one with Jesus who looked more like 
  Naveen Andrews than the way that Christianity portrays him.  
  He told me he wanted to tell me something and I had to walk 
  over to talk to him and there were fundamentalist Christians 
  who seemed to be stuck in the ground telling me I had no 
  right to talk to him.  He just nodded at them in disgust
  and said pay no attention to them.   He essentially warned 
  me that things were going to get really bad in the world 
  (and it did happen).  The experience makes it a little 
  difficult for me as I really didn't think there actually 
  was such an individual as Roman history makes no mention 
  of him (and they were good historians) and might actually 
  may be a work of fiction derived possibly from some activist's 
  activities (which would have been so minor the Romans wouldn't 
  have bothered with a mention) and a mystic at the time.  Some 
  theologians seem to buy into this idea.
 
 Interesting. I think it points up a curious tension in 
 this thread between, on the one hand, the idea of cultivating 
 dreams because they might have the potential to point to 
 something, or to intimate something profound (though like 
 looking for a black cat through a very dark glass darkly!). 
 And on the other, trying to take control over dreams and 
 direct them. I would have thought trying to practise
 the latter technique might bollocks up any hope of benefit 
 from the former? i.e. It is the innocence of the state of 
 dreaming that *may* allow it to open a door to something? 
 Perhaps.

An excellent point, and since I initiated the
thread, I'll reply.

The dichotomy you mention between the idea of
innocently interpreting dreams and the idea
of waking up in them and controlling them via
the techniques of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming
is based on a dichotomy between these approaches'
core beliefs about what dreams ARE.

The Western interpret dreams approach is largely
based on the idea that dreams have no real exis-
tence. They are mental constructs only, something
that happens in the brain and may or may not have
something to do with the release of stress. 

The Eastern approach to dreams is that they are
REAL. They're really happening, just on another
plane of existence, in what Castaneda called a
separate reality. Your relationship TO the dream
if you can wake up in it and change it is the SAME
as your relationship to the daily world you see 
around you in the waking state.

On the whole, those who are interested in Dream
Yoga and Lucid Dreaming (in my experience) are not
terribly interested in interpreting dreams, as
symbols for something else. They treat the dreams
as very real (in another plane of existence) and
something that one doesn't analyze for possible
meaning, but that one *interacts with*, in the
same way that one interacts with daily life.

Me personally, I've never been much for symbology,
or for analyzing dreams to suss out their pos-
sible meaning. That has been true my whole life,
and continues to this day. I understand that not
everyone is like that, and that many look to dreams
as symbols from which they can learn something, in
much the same way that JohnR looks to the Ramayana
as a set of symbols from which he can learn some-
thing. And that's cool, if that's what gets you off.

When I was practicing Dream Yoga and Lucid Dreaming,
I wasn't looking for meaning from dreams. I was
treating them as a separate reality, an environ-
ment in which I could be as interactive as I was
in my daily life. The dreams were REAL, within
their own reality.

Eastern philosophies tend to agree with this latter
view. They tend to view dreams as NOT happening 
inside one's brain, but as another level of reality
(the astral plane) that one accesses during dreaming,
and between incarnations. Thus they are looking to
gain more mastery over their actions in this separate
dreaming reality, just as they are looking to gain
more mastery over their actions in waking reality.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Richard M]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost1uk@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  
   I've mentioned one lucid dream I've had several times on 
   FFL and that was the one with Jesus who looked more like 
   Naveen Andrews than the way that Christianity portrays him.  
   He told me he wanted to tell me something and I had to walk 
   over to talk to him and there were fundamentalist Christians 
   who seemed to be stuck in the ground telling me I had no 
   right to talk to him.  He just nodded at them in disgust
   and said pay no attention to them.   He essentially warned 
   me that things were going to get really bad in the world 
   (and it did happen).  The experience makes it a little 
   difficult for me as I really didn't think there actually 
   was such an individual as Roman history makes no mention 
   of him (and they were good historians) and might actually 
   may be a work of fiction derived possibly from some activist's 
   activities (which would have been so minor the Romans wouldn't 
   have bothered with a mention) and a mystic at the time.  Some 
   theologians seem to buy into this idea.
  
  Interesting. I think it points up a curious tension in 
  this thread between, on the one hand, the idea of cultivating 
  dreams because they might have the potential to point to 
  something, or to intimate something profound (though like 
  looking for a black cat through a very dark glass darkly!). 
  And on the other, trying to take control over dreams and 
  direct them. I would have thought trying to practise
  the latter technique might bollocks up any hope of benefit 
  from the former? i.e. It is the innocence of the state of 
  dreaming that *may* allow it to open a door to something? 
  Perhaps.
 
 An excellent point, and since I initiated the
 thread, I'll reply.
 
 The dichotomy you mention between the idea of
 innocently interpreting dreams and the idea
 of waking up in them and controlling them via
 the techniques of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming
 is based on a dichotomy between these approaches'
 core beliefs about what dreams ARE.
 
 The Western interpret dreams approach is largely
 based on the idea that dreams have no real exis-
 tence. They are mental constructs only, something
 that happens in the brain and may or may not have
 something to do with the release of stress. 

Oh yes, that's true of course. But the West has more to offer than
just that I think.

You could say there are three Western views (and no doubt more):

(i) Dreams are just noise in the brain. Perhaps performing some
function that helps the neurons get through their daily drudge. This
is not just a modern idea from our scientific age. Take this on Romeo
 Juliet:

Mercutio treats the subject of dreams, like the subject of love, with
witty skepticism, as he describes them both as fantasy. Unlike
Romeo, Mercutio does not believe that dreams can foretell future
events. Instead, painting vivid pictures of the dreamscape people
inhabit as they sleep, Mercutio suggests that the fairy Queen Mab
brings dreams to humans as a result of men's worldly desires and
anxieties. To him, lawyers dream of collecting fees and lovers dream
of lusty encounters; the fairies merely grant carnal wishes as they
gallop by.

(ii) Dreams are something we can analyse for meaning because they
reveal something about our subconscious, our deeper self.
Manufacturers of leather couches have benefited greatly from this idea. 

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/wpr0052l.jpg

(iii) The great tradition that I guess we get from the ancient Greeks,
the Eqyptians and what-not, that dreams can reveal the future and
perhaps give us wisdom too. As per Romeo above. A very long and deep
tradition in the West! And it's this tradition that I had in mind in
my post.

For example it is alleged (but is it true?) that the physicist Niels
Bohr developed the model of the atom based on a dream of sitting on
the sun with all the planets hissing around on tiny cords. Wow! And
there are of course vast numbers of stories just like that. Some here:

http://www.dr-dream.com/hist.htm

Personally, given the choice of gaining control of my dreams to wander
around alternate, parallel, dimensions, or instead being given the
skill to listen to and appreciate my dreams for what they might
*reveal* to me, I think I would choose the latter. (Second Life is
quite good at the former!). I'm a Westerner after all, living in a
part of the world with a long history of Celtic mysticism and standing
stones

The thing is, as I think you would agree, whether you're a would-be
Niels Bohr hoping to cheat on your PhD, or, more traditionally, a
big-wig general looking for military inspiration, the Western approach
might appear more promising. And surely dreams are only likely to
reveal their secrets (if at all) to the receptive and the innocent,
not to those 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Vaj]

On Jan 29, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Richard M wrote:


Oh yes, that's true of course. But the West has more to offer than
just that I think.

You could say there are three Western views (and no doubt more):



Let me share some counterpoint, the mantrayana views of dream and sleep:

Dreams are helpful in learning to understand how experience itself  
arises. It's like a laboratory.


Since scales of time are different in dream, one is no longer  
encumbered by some of the constraints of the waking state. So if one  
wants to master a certain practice, one can do many hours of practice  
in dream, yet to a waking state observer, only minutes will pass. One  
might use the dream state to memorize materials for later use, a  
practice used for millennia, before writing was popular, that way  
learning becomes a part of the person rather than needing to rely on  
external aids like books or computers. Some practitioners will use  
mastery of the dream state to master understanding of the illusory  
nature of waking state constructs, the mayakaya.


There are basically three kinds of sleep: sleep of ignorance, normal  
deep sleep everyone knows, the basis of patterns of ignorance in day  
to day life and the basis of innate ignorance, that which makes us  
tired and that keeps of from maintaining clarity. The second kind of  
sleep is karmic sleep. Karmic sleep is largely the detritus of  
previous experiences expressing themselves in reassembled story- 
lines. Unlike the void of deep sleep, karmic sleep relies on activity  
of the gross mind, emotional mind states and negative emotions--and  
thus also allows the possibility of mastering mind and destructive  
emotions. The third kind of sleep is clear light sleep. Clear light  
sleep is a form of sleep where one abides in clear awareness. It's a  
laboratory where one can dissolve the illusion of separation directly.


All three dream states have their counterparts in meditative  
experience done in the waking state. As consciousness expands, the  
overlapping reality of dream, waking and meditation become more and  
more obvious. It's just part of the natural expansion of  
consciousness as our awareness begins to grow. Because the states of  
dream and sleep are interrelated, we can use that to our advantage,  
both to monitor the progress of our meditation and to master  
different states of consciousness so awareness expands more and more.  
So dream yoga is a natural part of mastery of consciousness, which  
takes us beyond waking, dreaming and sleeping.


The Buddhist ideals of dream and sleep yoga are really very similar  
to those taught in Advaita and in the Hindu yoga schools. In both  
cases, once mastery is achieved the lull of deep sleep is less  
necessary for daily rejuvenation. Hindu and Buddhist yogis only need  
to sleep 1-4 hours a night for this very reason.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Bhairitu]

Richard M wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
   
 TurquoiseB wrote:
 
 The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
 Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
 Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
 I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
 other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
 in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
 to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
 and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
 waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
 the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
 which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
 are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
 dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
 it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
 same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
 cooler rebirth.
   
 Boy Art Bell's cousin sure had an effect on you. :-D

 I've mentioned one lucid dream I've had several times on FFL and that 
 was the one with Jesus who looked more like Naveen Andrews than the 
 way that Christianity portrays him.  He told me he wanted to tell me 
 something and I had to walk over to talk to him and there were 
 fundamentalist Christians who seemed to be stuck in the ground telling 
 me I had no right to talk to him.  He just nodded at them in disgust
 
 and 
   
 said pay no attention to them.   He essentially warned me that things 
 were going to get really bad in the world (and it did happen).  The 
 experience makes it a little difficult for me as I really didn't think 
 there actually was such an individual as Roman history makes no mention 
 of him (and they were good historians) and might actually may be a work 
 of fiction derived possibly from some activist's activities (which
 
 would 
   
 have been so minor the Romans wouldn't have bothered with a mention)
 
 and 
   
 a mystic at the time.  Some theologians seem to buy into this idea.

 

 Interesting. I think it points up a curious tension in this thread
 between, on the one hand, the idea of cultivating dreams because they
 might have the potential to point to something, or to intimate
 something profound (though like looking for a black cat through a
 very dark glass darkly!). And on the other, trying to take control
 over dreams and direct them. I would have thought trying to practise
 the latter technique might bollocks up any hope of benefit from the
 former? i.e. It is the innocence of the state of dreaming that *may*
 allow it to open a door to something? Perhaps.
I don't purposely try to do Lucid Dreaming but have a fair amount of 
dreams where I do take over control.  It seems to be related to my 
current physiological functioning.  In many of those cases a threatening 
being comes into my dream and tries to take control and I have to kick 
their butt.  Otherwise the rest of my dreams I would say are passive.   
There is a bit of literature in tantra about dream analysis.  I'll look 
again on what is there about trying to take control.  Most of what I've 
read is what the dream portends.  One technique that tantrics do and 
anyone can try is to address your ishta devata and ask them to resolve a 
question you have when you fall asleep and dream.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[dhamiltony2k5]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 What I'm inter-
 ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
 of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
 no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
 
 The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
 Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
 Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
 I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
 other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
 in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
 to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
 and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
 waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
 the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
 which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
 are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
 dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
 it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
 same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
 cooler rebirth.
 

Hi Turq,

Yeah, there is at least one Satsang in FF that works with this as 
technique or method for cultivating clarity of experience with 
immortal soul.  Is a type of meditation for them along with TM.  
Spiritual practice, not spiritism.  Some people quite adept at it.

JGD,
-D in FF

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5
dhamiltony...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  What I'm inter-
  ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
  of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
  no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
  
  The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
  Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
  Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
  I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
  other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
  in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
  to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
  and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
  waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
  the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
  which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
  are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
  dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
  it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
  same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
  cooler rebirth.
 
 Hi Turq,
 
 Yeah, there is at least one Satsang in FF that works with this as 
 technique or method for cultivating clarity of experience with 
 immortal soul.  Is a type of meditation for them along with TM.  
 Spiritual practice, not spiritism. Some people quite adept at it.

Cool. I had to ask because, of course, no such
studies were present in the TMO, at least not
during my time with it, or as reported here or
on a.m.t. in the years afterwards.

I found it a rewarding study, if on no other 
level than fun. ( Which for me is a valid reason
for doing almost anything. :-) Its practical
application ( other than general self knowledge )
might be limited to its relationship with pho-wa,
the Tibetan study of what takes places after death,
and making the transition between death and rebirth
as conscious a process, and as productive as possible, 
but it sure was fun.

Come to think of it, though, some people who, unlike
me, tended to have nightmares or bad dreams were
able to use Lucid Dreaming to address and neutralize
or dissolve their fears. They just woke up in the
dream and faced down the bogeymen who were threat-
ening them. Do this enough times in the dream plane,
and it starts to roll over into one's waking state
as well.

The parallels between the experience of the astral
plane in dreaming and the experience of possibly
the same astral plane in the Bardo are many. Of
course, you won't know whether these parallels 
are anything other than idle speculation until you
Bite The Big One and die. :-)

But if there *is* some connection, it seems to me
that having developed a facility with intentionally
directing the movie in dreams might be handy when
placed in a similar movie in the Bardo. Better IMO
than finding yourself a powerless actor in Someone
Else's Movie. 

Other than that, for which I like everyone else will
have to play wait and see to determine the truth
of, all I can say is that it's great fun. Once a
group of four of us decided to get together in
the dream plane to play poker. It was hilarious!
Everyone kept changing not only the rules (a la
Calvinball in Calvin and Hobbes), but the pictures
on the cards. They'd never be the same from hand
to hand, so the dealer would have to make up new
rules to go with the new cards. I'm laughing out
loud just remembering it.  :-)  :-)  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:


 In the dream state you're not a hampered by time, you can even 
 play dreams in reverse or examine individual dream elements. Once 
 one could shatter the constructs of the dreams, you could reduce 
 it to a bare presence, even less than a 'witness', just a 
 permeating clear presence.
 
 Those are some of the tamer examples. Some are simply too bizarre 
 to share on a public list.

Thanks for sharing your stories, Vaj. I figured
you'd have had a few, given your studies.

The story with your teacher is interesting because
it so clearly maps from dream state to waking
state. You can remember the incident and find some
way of expressing it in the waking state because
it uses waking state images and metaphors.

But did you ever encounter teachings in the dream
plane that just don't map to the waking state at
all? I've had that experience many times, and it's
always fascinating.

The teaching itself was always clear as a bell *in*
the dream plane. Whatever was being discussed or
whatever ability was being taught was no problem 
to follow or learn. But upon waking, any attempt 
to remember it clearly or to put it into words or
to even describe it in terms of everyday reality
failed miserably because the teaching took place
in a separate reality, as Castaneda would put it.

Some things just don't map from astral to waking.
There is no *counterpart* for them in everyday wak-
ing reality. They cannot be expressed here or even
conceived of here. That is one reason why the Rama
guy and at least one Tibetan teacher I've worked 
with preferred to do some of their teaching in the
dream plane. They could get into things there in
a way that they just can't in the waking state.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Vaj]

On Jan 28, 2009, at 8:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:


But did you ever encounter teachings in the dream
plane that just don't map to the waking state at
all? I've had that experience many times, and it's
always fascinating.

The teaching itself was always clear as a bell *in*
the dream plane. Whatever was being discussed or
whatever ability was being taught was no problem
to follow or learn. But upon waking, any attempt
to remember it clearly or to put it into words or
to even describe it in terms of everyday reality
failed miserably because the teaching took place
in a separate reality, as Castaneda would put it.

Some things just don't map from astral to waking.
There is no *counterpart* for them in everyday wak-
ing reality. They cannot be expressed here or even
conceived of here. That is one reason why the Rama
guy and at least one Tibetan teacher I've worked
with preferred to do some of their teaching in the
dream plane. They could get into things there in
a way that they just can't in the waking state.


A number of the things I'd previously described simply cannot be done  
(as they were done in the dream) in the waking state, but they almost  
always will have some waking or meditative state counterpart that I  
had to realize or flash to. Occasionally I would tap into strata  
that I was not ready to integrate across states, despite being  
elaborate teachings which were clearly relevant, taught important  
practical lessons, meditative states etc. and the being that revealed  
them would simply collapse them to a point and reintroduce them into  
my (subconscious) mindstream. As linear events unfold, I can sense  
that enfolded mandala providing datum that teaches along a sequence  
of unfolding waking time (if that makes sense).


Another thing I realized was that sometimes the teaching may not have  
any value outside the dream or trance state other than to introduce  
to the mind the possibility that a certain thing, state of  
consciousness, type of practice is possible. Not only does it have  
the advantage of expanding the realm of possibilities of what the  
mind can conceive, but also expanding the possibility of what it can  
believe. Once it establishes the possibility of belief, the  
possibility of that thing actually occurring, it automatically  
removes an impediment to those things occurring. In yet other cases a  
certain bizarre experience may simply form a passage which creates a  
samskara or mind-imprint which will create a foothold or seed-form,  
usually along with other seed forms to allow other experiences and  
states of consciousness to develop--but an and of themselves they  
possess no real meaning, they're just necessary ordeals.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:


 A number of the things I'd previously described simply cannot be 
 done (as they were done in the dream) in the waking state, but 
 they almost always will have some waking or meditative state 
 counterpart that I had to realize or flash to. Occasionally I 
 would tap into strata that I was not ready to integrate across 
 states, despite being elaborate teachings which were clearly 
 relevant, taught important practical lessons, meditative states 
 etc. and the being that revealed them would simply collapse them 
 to a point and reintroduce them into my (subconscious) mindstream. 
 As linear events unfold, I can sense that enfolded mandala 
 providing datum that teaches along a sequence of unfolding 
 waking time (if that makes sense).

It does make sense, because I once tried to write
a story about one of these doesn't map dreams.
In the dream, I showed up at one of Rama's dream
seminars mentioned earlier. However, this happened
during a period of time when I was no longer one of
his students, so I found it interesting, to say the
least. What reminded me of it was your image of 
collapsing the knowledge into a point and storing 
it somewhere in your mind, conscious or subconscious.
Here's the story, written as I saw it at the time, 
with all of the emotionality of the time. I doubt 
that I would express it the same way now. 

http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm21.html

 Another thing I realized was that sometimes the teaching may 
 not have any value outside the dream or trance state other 
 than to introduce to the mind the possibility that a certain 
 thing, state of consciousness, type of practice is possible. 

I fully agree.

 Not only does it have the advantage of expanding the realm of 
 possibilities of what the mind can conceive, but also expanding 
 the possibility of what it can believe. 

Exactly. This applies to experience of witnessing
the siddhis being performed as well.

 Once it establishes the possibility of belief, the  
 possibility of that thing actually occurring, it automatically  
 removes an impediment to those things occurring. 

Yup.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Larry]

I don't know if this qualifies as Lucid Dreaming or not - but about
1-2 times per month I will find myself in a frustrating dream.  I
attempt to salvage the dream by removing the frustration, but
eventually just decide to end it and wake up.

Example:
Just last night I dreamt I was on a jet flight and was stuck with this
super annoying passenger. He was bugging the crap out of me - and
everyone else on the plane.  

At some point I got fed up with everything and I step in and decided
to have the plane land far short of the runway on a city street just
so I could get off the plane and away from this guy.

I remember looking out the passenger window and 'flying' the plane
down thru this city street, the wings  get knocked off by the
buildings.  I remember the potholes and even a stretch of cobblestone.
 Beautiful landing.

The plane comes to a stop - I get off and away from this guy, then
it's back to dream mode - in other words, back to more frustration.

Cuz this guy reappears and tells me he going to go to O'Hare with me
but first he's got to take a leak . . . 


Anyways, sorry about the boring details, but the nuts and bolts are
the following:

1) frustration in a dream
2) I 'step in', put the dream on hold, and attempt to remove the
frustration
3) if I am successful, dream will continue
4) either way, eventually the 'frustration stack' will get to me and I
decide to wake up and end it
5) my first thought upon waking is always regret - I should have given
the dream one more chance.





--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
 determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
 in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
 It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
 ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
 
 I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is
 pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter-
 ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
 of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
 no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
 
 The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
 Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
 Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
 I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
 other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
 in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
 to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
 and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
 waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
 the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
 which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
 are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
 dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
 it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
 same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
 cooler rebirth.
 
 Basically, the definition of Lucid Dreaming I am using
 for this rap, and calling for stories about, has to do
 with the *interactive* nature of Lucid Dreaming. It is
 *not* the same as witnessing dreams, because that
 phenomenon is usually described as passive. Depending
 on the spiritual culture, the witness in witnessing
 dreams may be considered to be the self, or the Self.
 For the purposes of this rap, that distinction doesn't
 matter. All that matters is when that self or Self
 decides to wake up and take an interactive, 
 *intentional* role in the dream.
 
 For example, if you wake up in the dream and find yourself
 in a room that has purple wallpaper, and you don't like
 the color purple, you can change the color of it in an
 instant. Just *intend* the color blue, and zap!, you're
 in a blue-colored room. If you find yourself in a location
 that doesn't quite do it for you, you can switch locations
 equally quickly and easily. That sorta thing.
 
 In the Rama trip, he first taught all of his students the
 basics of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming, and had us prac-
 tice on our own for some time. Then, after enough students
 reported gaining a facility with it, he started having
 dream seminars. They were fun.
 
 What he'd do is announce that on a certain night he was
 open for business as a spiritual teacher, but in the
 dream plane. He wouldn't tell us where, or how to get
 there. That was our challenge, or task. To accomplish it,
 you'd have to first wake up in the dream, and then focus 
 on his vibe or energy, and see if you could find the
 group. If you did, there was often a talk going on, or
 a demonstration of some abilities or siddhis, or just a
 party. Interestingly, many times students would see other
 students that they recognized in the dream seminars,
 say something to them, and then ask them later in the 
 waking state to repeat it back to them. They were often
 able to do so. Go figure.
 
 Anyway, I always thought that Lucid Dreaming was FUN, and
 so I continued practicing it after I left 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Vaj]

On Jan 28, 2009, at 9:52 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:


Not only does it have the advantage of expanding the realm of
possibilities of what the mind can conceive, but also expanding
the possibility of what it can believe.


Exactly. This applies to experience of witnessing
the siddhis being performed as well.


Well even in the case of siddhis you have not experienced in waking  
state. For example some of my teachers have spontaneously displayed  
various siddhis while I was present, others when I wasn't around to  
witness. My degree of trust is so established, when I hear of other  
phenomenon by the same teacher, I have a base of practical  
understanding to accommodate experiences I have not experienced first  
hand myself. For example, my one teacher was handed a tiny yellow  
scroll with minute dakini-script writing on it in a dream. He later  
awoke with his fists still clenched around it. He literally pries  
open his fists and there, in waking state, is the yellow scroll from  
the dream. I did not experience this first hand, but the level of  
trust, along with my own first hand experiences, tells me that as  
strange as it sounds, this actually did happen, as described. It also  
jives with my growing perception of the super-seamlessness of so-call  
different states of consciousness. :-)


Conversely, hearing stories of MMY walking thru walls from a concrete  
salesman theosophist are more likely to have me chuckling rather than  
even considering them as valid. There's just no credibility or  
integrity there to support it. Quite the opposite really. There's  
that sleazy feeling you're being set up. It is interesting to me that  
some people are willing to go to such extremes to sell their product  
or to get people to buy into their belief system that they'll just  
make stuff up becasue they no some people will buy it hook-line-and- 
sinker.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

I am far from an expert on all this myself, and
thus can't say whether this is a legitimate 
example of Lucid Dreaming or not. Sounds like it, 
if you intentionally changed the direction of the
dream, even if you didn't have the sensation of
waking up in the dream.

On the other hand, if I'm ever on a plane with you 
sometime, you'll have to forgive me if I sit in 
another row, just in case.  :-)  :-)  :-)


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Larry inmadi...@... wrote:

 I don't know if this qualifies as Lucid Dreaming or not - but about
 1-2 times per month I will find myself in a frustrating dream.  I
 attempt to salvage the dream by removing the frustration, but
 eventually just decide to end it and wake up.
 
 Example:
 Just last night I dreamt I was on a jet flight and was stuck with this
 super annoying passenger. He was bugging the crap out of me - and
 everyone else on the plane.  
 
 At some point I got fed up with everything and I step in and decided
 to have the plane land far short of the runway on a city street just
 so I could get off the plane and away from this guy.
 
 I remember looking out the passenger window and 'flying' the plane
 down thru this city street, the wings  get knocked off by the
 buildings.  I remember the potholes and even a stretch of cobblestone.
  Beautiful landing.
 
 The plane comes to a stop - I get off and away from this guy, then
 it's back to dream mode - in other words, back to more frustration.
 
 Cuz this guy reappears and tells me he going to go to O'Hare with me
 but first he's got to take a leak . . . 
 
 
 Anyways, sorry about the boring details, but the nuts and bolts are
 the following:
 
 1) frustration in a dream
 2) I 'step in', put the dream on hold, and attempt to remove the
 frustration
 3) if I am successful, dream will continue
 4) either way, eventually the 'frustration stack' will get to me and I
 decide to wake up and end it
 5) my first thought upon waking is always regret - I should have given
 the dream one more chance.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Duveyoung]

Turq,

I find it strange that you are being somewhat pro lucid dreaming
when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general.

I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with
you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things
for me if you honestly answer.

If you truly believe that you and others were meeting in the astral
or were in the same dream . . . whatever, then there's easy and
scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an
experience is real or merely imagination.

So, here's an experiment:  All you have to do is come out of a lucid
dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then
check to see if that is true.  

I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid
dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with
information about the statues.  I'm betting you'll say you personally
cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE.  I'm
saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information about my
statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then astral
traveling remains unproved.  But you seem to be a cheerleader for the
validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other POVs.

I'm shocked that you are being such a pushover about the reports
about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting
to know how that all works inside your logic systems.  Your statement
about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that
you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it
astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by now.
 In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great
Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA and
other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a
threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to dream
about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the President
is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc.

The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have
discovered and used the ability to astral travel for many many many
reasons.  Where's the beef?  

All that said, how's 'bout this:  If someone can guide their dreams,
then why not simply have the intention to be enlightened, or, say,
meet Krishna, or, hey, my favorite, have the dream character
meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right
next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more
intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser
state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be. 
So???  Got beef?

But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers, and in
fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their experiences
will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming
material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming
community for having their best dreamers be tested as The Great
Randi might suggest.

I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a
skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to have much
skill in doing.

I'm convinced that it is a case of what happens in meat, only happens
in meat.  Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the willingness to
be fooled is commonplace.

A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any
scientist in short order -- but it simply has not happened, right?

Edg









--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
 determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
 in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
 It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
 ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
 
 I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is
 pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter-
 ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
 of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
 no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
 
 The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
 Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
 Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
 I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
 other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
 in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
 to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
 and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
 waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
 the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
 which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
 are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
 dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
 it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
 same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
 cooler rebirth.
 
 Basically, the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[raunchydog]

Jumping in. I've never had any instruction on how to control lucid
dreams, have no intention intention to do so, but find that I can if I
want to. If lucid dreaming spontaneously occurs, it sometimes happens
in the dome during rest after program. If I had a particularly
blissful program, during rest, maybe it's kundalini, I don't really
know, but it feels like my crown chakra is plugged into a light
socket. Here's the re-occurring sequence: I'm resting, my eyes are
closed but I see everything and everyone in the dome. I start to
fly above everyone and can control where I go and what I see. As I
rise higher above everyone I can fly anywhere, over roof tops, into
the clouds, to the moon, the stars, the sun, wherever. The longer I
fly the move intense the feeling of electricity flooding my brain.
Sometimes I hear choirs of angels and I can direct the music.
Sometimes, I see Maharishi or Guru Dev or a bright light that looks
like me looking back at me or a third eye right in front of my third
eye, but more like an elephant eye, like Ganesha and I can decide to
observe it. I don't know what it means and I don't care. I take a
neutral attitude toward it and I just enjoy it when it happens. Some
might call my experience astral travel but on this subject I do
remember Maharishi cautioning We don't leave the house if it isn't
clean. If I am astral traveling hopefully, my house is clean enough
that I can leave it for a few minutes without having uninvited guests
showing up.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
 determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
 in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
 It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
 ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
 
 I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is
 pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter-
 ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
 of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
 no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
 
 The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
 Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
 Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
 I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
 other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
 in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
 to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
 and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
 waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate
 the dream state is seen as valuable to a culture in
 which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead
 are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal
 dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then 
 it is assumed that you might also be able to do the 
 same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a 
 cooler rebirth.
 
 Basically, the definition of Lucid Dreaming I am using
 for this rap, and calling for stories about, has to do
 with the *interactive* nature of Lucid Dreaming. It is
 *not* the same as witnessing dreams, because that
 phenomenon is usually described as passive. Depending
 on the spiritual culture, the witness in witnessing
 dreams may be considered to be the self, or the Self.
 For the purposes of this rap, that distinction doesn't
 matter. All that matters is when that self or Self
 decides to wake up and take an interactive, 
 *intentional* role in the dream.
 
 For example, if you wake up in the dream and find yourself
 in a room that has purple wallpaper, and you don't like
 the color purple, you can change the color of it in an
 instant. Just *intend* the color blue, and zap!, you're
 in a blue-colored room. If you find yourself in a location
 that doesn't quite do it for you, you can switch locations
 equally quickly and easily. That sorta thing.
 
 In the Rama trip, he first taught all of his students the
 basics of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming, and had us prac-
 tice on our own for some time. Then, after enough students
 reported gaining a facility with it, he started having
 dream seminars. They were fun.
 
 What he'd do is announce that on a certain night he was
 open for business as a spiritual teacher, but in the
 dream plane. He wouldn't tell us where, or how to get
 there. That was our challenge, or task. To accomplish it,
 you'd have to first wake up in the dream, and then focus 
 on his vibe or energy, and see if you could find the
 group. If you did, there was often a talk going on, or
 a demonstration of some abilities or siddhis, or just a
 party. Interestingly, many times students would see other
 students that they recognized in the dream seminars,
 say something to them, and then ask them later in the 
 waking state to repeat it back to them. They were often
 able to do so. Go figure.
 
 Anyway, I always thought that Lucid Dreaming was FUN, and
 so I continued practicing it after I left the Rama trip,
 first 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:

 Turq,
 
 I find it strange that you are being somewhat pro lucid dreaming
 when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general.

Edg, I have *no problem* with oogabooganess.

I have a problem with *unexamined* oogabooganess. :-)

That is, I have respect for those who accept their
out-of-the-ordinary experiences as valid experiences.
But I have little for those who buy into someone else's
ego-stroking explanation of what those experiences
mean.

To quote Blade Runner, I've seen things you people
wouldn't believe. But I don't claim to know what
those things meant. And I don't claim that having
seen them makes me special, or highly evolved, 
only lucky.

 I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with
 you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things
 for me if you honestly answer.
 
 If you truly believe that you and others were meeting in the 
 astral or were in the same dream . . . whatever, then there's 
 easy and scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove 
 if such an experience is real or merely imagination.

Yup. I suggest you get in touch with some group that
practices Lucid Dreaming and propose your experiment
to them. I'm not involved with such a group.

 So, here's an experiment:  All you have to do is come out of a lucid
 dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then
 check to see if that is true.  

Been there, done that many times. But for me to say 
so now means as little as for me to say that I've
seen real levitation. Both are true, from my subjec-
tive experience, but I can't prove it to you. I don't
even care to try. I'm merely reporting my experiences;
you can make of them what you want.

But I agree with you that some of the Lucid Dreaming
experiences could be objectively verified. I hope you
get in touch with some group that is interested in
putting them to the test. I'm not in touch with any
such group at this time, so I can't help you.

 I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid
 dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with
 information about the statues.  I'm betting you'll say you 
 personally cannot do this...

I wouldn't want to. Besides, in my experience I was
usually only able to dream teleport to the *astral
counterpart* of places I'd been to in real life, for
the most part. It was rarer for me to be able to go
to somewhere I'd never been before. 

As for astral counterpart, I'm saying that sometimes
the quality of the place was different in dreaming
than in waking state. Lighting could be different, 
doors could be present in dreaming that aren't there
in real life, that sorta thing. Again, I'm not trying
to explain this stuff or make excuses for it; I'm
merely reporting what my experiences were.

 ...but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE.  

I have no idea whether it can be done or not. I think
yours is an unrealistic test. If you find someone who
cares enough about proving things to take you up on
your challenge, based on my experience I'd suggest 
giving them the option of going somewhere they have
been able to go before. You can control what appears
in that location you want, as part of the test, but
picking an arbitrary location they've never been before
seems like a bad test to me, based on my experiences.

 I'm saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information 
 about my statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then 
 astral traveling remains unproved.  

And I'm saying that yours is an unrealistic test. See
above.

 But you seem to be a cheerleader for the validity of the concept, 
 and that seems at odds with your other POVs.

Not at all. I am merely at odds with accepting one and
only one interpretation of one's experiences as the
correct one. I continually examine and reexamine my
experiences, and am open to many ways of seeing them.
It's only when someone declares *This* is what my
experience 'means' that I give them a tough time.

 I'm shocked that you are being such a pushover about the 
 reports about lucid dreaming...

I'm shocked that you can't read. I have said *nothing*
about reports about lucid dreaming. I have merely
reported my own subjective experiences.

 ...and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting
 to know how that all works inside your logic systems. Your statement
 about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that
 you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it
 astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by 
 now.

Makes sense to me. But it is not my interest to do so.
Never has been, never will be. If it's yours, by all
means pursue it. I only dabbled in lucid dreaming for
fun.

 In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great
 Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA 
 and other black-op governmental wogs would be all over 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Larry]

Hey Edg,

I'll have to check again tonight, but when I floated thru your office
the other night, I thot for sure one of those stautues was a bust. 
Speaking of busts, those old Playboys you've got stashed away are a hoot.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:

 Turq,
 
 I find it strange that you are being somewhat pro lucid dreaming
 when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general.
 
 I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with
 you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things
 for me if you honestly answer.
 
 If you truly believe that you and others were meeting in the astral
 or were in the same dream . . . whatever, then there's easy and
 scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an
 experience is real or merely imagination.
 
 So, here's an experiment:  All you have to do is come out of a lucid
 dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then
 check to see if that is true.  
 
 I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid
 dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with
 information about the statues.  I'm betting you'll say you personally
 cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE.  I'm
 saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information about my
 statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then astral
 traveling remains unproved.  But you seem to be a cheerleader for the
 validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other POVs.
 
 I'm shocked that you are being such a pushover about the reports
 about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting
 to know how that all works inside your logic systems.  Your statement
 about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that
 you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it
 astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by now.
  In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great
 Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA and
 other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a
 threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to dream
 about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the President
 is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc.
 
 The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have
 discovered and used the ability to astral travel for many many many
 reasons.  Where's the beef?  
 
 All that said, how's 'bout this:  If someone can guide their dreams,
 then why not simply have the intention to be enlightened, or, say,
 meet Krishna, or, hey, my favorite, have the dream character
 meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right
 next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more
 intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser
 state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be. 
 So???  Got beef?
 
 But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers, and in
 fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their experiences
 will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming
 material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming
 community for having their best dreamers be tested as The Great
 Randi might suggest.
 
 I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a
 skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to have much
 skill in doing.
 
 I'm convinced that it is a case of what happens in meat, only happens
 in meat.  Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the willingness to
 be fooled is commonplace.
 
 A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any
 scientist in short order -- but it simply has not happened, right?
 
 Edg
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
  determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
  in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
  It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
  ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
  
  I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is
  pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter-
  ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
  of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
  no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.
  
  The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught
  Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan
  Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those
  I've later found in Native American shamanism and 
  other disciplines. The Tibetan connection is that
  in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous
  to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death
  and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with 
  waking up in the dream, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Duveyoung]

No busts over here.  Wanna try another guess?

Playboys?  Here?  As if.  Real sex is how I roll.

What I do think you DO know is why you posted this.  And, if you
could expound on that, hey, we'd all be agog if it were done with
clarity.  

I'm an easy target here for this kind of teasing, but far harder to
see is the mechanics of how my presentation triggers responses in
others.  I don't mind the elbow in the ribs, but I do wonder about the
motivation to have done so.

Maybe I'm reading you wrongly, Larry, er, what was your intent with
the post?  

Edg


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Larry inmadi...@... wrote:

 Hey Edg,
 
 I'll have to check again tonight, but when I floated thru your office
 the other night, I thot for sure one of those stautues was a bust. 
 Speaking of busts, those old Playboys you've got stashed away are a
hoot.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Turq,
  
  I find it strange that you are being somewhat pro lucid dreaming
  when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general.
  
  I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with
  you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things
  for me if you honestly answer.
  
  If you truly believe that you and others were meeting in the astral
  or were in the same dream . . . whatever, then there's easy and
  scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an
  experience is real or merely imagination.
  
  So, here's an experiment:  All you have to do is come out of a lucid
  dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then
  check to see if that is true.  
  
  I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid
  dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with
  information about the statues.  I'm betting you'll say you personally
  cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE.  I'm
  saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information about my
  statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then astral
  traveling remains unproved.  But you seem to be a cheerleader for the
  validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other POVs.
  
  I'm shocked that you are being such a pushover about the reports
  about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting
  to know how that all works inside your logic systems.  Your statement
  about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that
  you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it
  astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by now.
   In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great
  Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA and
  other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a
  threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to dream
  about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the President
  is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc.
  
  The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have
  discovered and used the ability to astral travel for many many many
  reasons.  Where's the beef?  
  
  All that said, how's 'bout this:  If someone can guide their dreams,
  then why not simply have the intention to be enlightened, or, say,
  meet Krishna, or, hey, my favorite, have the dream character
  meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right
  next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more
  intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser
  state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be. 
  So???  Got beef?
  
  But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers, and in
  fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their experiences
  will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming
  material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming
  community for having their best dreamers be tested as The Great
  Randi might suggest.
  
  I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a
  skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to have much
  skill in doing.
  
  I'm convinced that it is a case of what happens in meat, only happens
  in meat.  Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the willingness to
  be fooled is commonplace.
  
  A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any
  scientist in short order -- but it simply has not happened, right?
  
  Edg
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
   determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
   in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
   It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
   ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
   
   I recently posted a 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[Larry]

On the long-shot that I was correct about the bust(s), then I could
finally tell my Mom my one year at MIU paid off because it expanding
my 'hunch power'

If I was way off, I fall back on gentle ribbing.  Since you caught me
on both accounts, I apologize and won't do it again.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:

 No busts over here.  Wanna try another guess?
 
 Playboys?  Here?  As if.  Real sex is how I roll.
 
 What I do think you DO know is why you posted this.  And, if you
 could expound on that, hey, we'd all be agog if it were done with
 clarity.  
 
 I'm an easy target here for this kind of teasing, but far harder to
 see is the mechanics of how my presentation triggers responses in
 others.  I don't mind the elbow in the ribs, but I do wonder about the
 motivation to have done so.
 
 Maybe I'm reading you wrongly, Larry, er, what was your intent with
 the post?  
 
 Edg
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Larry inmadison@ wrote:
 
  Hey Edg,
  
  I'll have to check again tonight, but when I floated thru your office
  the other night, I thot for sure one of those stautues was a bust. 
  Speaking of busts, those old Playboys you've got stashed away are a
 hoot.
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Turq,
   
   I find it strange that you are being somewhat pro lucid dreaming
   when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general.
   
   I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with
   you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things
   for me if you honestly answer.
   
   If you truly believe that you and others were meeting in the
astral
   or were in the same dream . . . whatever, then there's easy and
   scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an
   experience is real or merely imagination.
   
   So, here's an experiment:  All you have to do is come out of a lucid
   dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then
   check to see if that is true.  
   
   I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid
   dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with
   information about the statues.  I'm betting you'll say you
personally
   cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE
DONE.  I'm
   saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information
about my
   statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then astral
   traveling remains unproved.  But you seem to be a cheerleader
for the
   validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other
POVs.
   
   I'm shocked that you are being such a pushover about the reports
   about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and
wanting
   to know how that all works inside your logic systems.  Your
statement
   about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that
   you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it
   astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat
by now.
In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great
   Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the
NSA and
   other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a
   threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to
dream
   about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the
President
   is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc.
   
   The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have
   discovered and used the ability to astral travel for many many
many
   reasons.  Where's the beef?  
   
   All that said, how's 'bout this:  If someone can guide their dreams,
   then why not simply have the intention to be enlightened, or, say,
   meet Krishna, or, hey, my favorite, have the dream character
   meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right
   next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more
   intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser
   state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be. 
   So???  Got beef?
   
   But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers,
and in
   fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their
experiences
   will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming
   material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming
   community for having their best dreamers be tested as The Great
   Randi might suggest.
   
   I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a
   skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to
have much
   skill in doing.
   
   I'm convinced that it is a case of what happens in meat, only
happens
   in meat.  Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the
willingness to
   be fooled is commonplace.
   
   A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any
   scientist in short order 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:

 If you played poker in the astral with your buddies, and they all 
 said the next day that they had had the same experience and 
 considered it true to say we were actually in each other's 
 presense, actually had really experiences, actually could map point 
 for point our get-together, then I say, you're making a statement 
 about laws of physics of the real world, and it's simply too 
 powerful a statement to go unchallenged, since it represents a 
 siddhi of immense worth to the real world.  

What's the worth? We were in a DREAM, dude? :-)

It was DREAM poker. Yes, we all laughed about it
IN the dream, and the next day, OUT of the dream,
comparing notes, but that has no worth. 

You can challenge it all you want. I can laugh
at your challenge -- and at you -- all I want. 
Now THAT is real world.  :-)

 I suspect you'd back off saying that the poker playing was an actual
 event and that all of the participants were merely imagining up the
 scenario with a high degree of synchronicity like that. If you are
 going to contend that the event really happened, then extraordinary
 claims require extraordinary proof.

*Of course* it really happened. For *all* of us.
In a DREAM. 

Prove to me that the things that happened in *your*
dreams last night really happened. I'll wait. :-)

 To me, the big tell about your report is that you feign an
 indifference to the truth that might be easily revealed by
 experimentation. Sure sounds like the TMO research attitude to me. 
 It's like you're saying, Yeah, I astral travel for real, but the
 obvious advantages of such an ability don't interest me. 

First, Edg, you *really* need to learn the difference
between astral travel and going to different places
in dreams. What happens in dreams *happens in dreams*.
What I've heard about astral travel is usually 
initiated from the waking state and claims to have
gone to these place *in the waking state* and being
able to describe what's going on there in the waking
state, in real time. I made no such claims. I went 
to places IN DREAMS and described what happened
there IN THE DREAMS. Apples and oranges. Don't be 
so fuckin' ignorant.

As for my indifference, you DAMN BETCHA I am indif-
ferent. They were DREAMS, dude. The nature of dreams
is *subjective*. I don't CARE about your seemingly
psychotic need for proof about my DREAMS. Get a
life. 

If I were involved in trying to sell courses in lucid
dreaming, or if I were involved in trying to convince
you of anything or change your mind about anything,
you might have a reason to be so demanding of proof.
I'm not. You're just going a little crazy, that's all.
We've all seen you do it before, and we'll see you
do it again. 

 As for your attitude of being indignant about my post...

I am NOT indignant at your post. I am LAUGHING 
at you, and trying to get you to laugh at yourself.

 ...well at least
 you're consistent and take everything I write about you in the worst
 possible way.  I find some interest in how well you're able to find
 yourself being wronged by me; it's a study of your denial and 
 meanness skills.  But I tire of it, dude, honest.  

I notice you have not admitted that pretty much 
everything you wronged me with was *made up*.
You don't seem all that tired to me. :-)

You are being LAUGHABLE, Edg. You're cuckoo, over
the top, several cans short of a six-pack. I'm
just trying to point that out so you'll lighten
up and learn to *notice* when you go crazy like
this.

 In this day of Obamaficational good intentions, maybe your can mood 
 make yourself to a higher intention to speak the sweet truth.  

The sweet truth is that your outrage exists only
in your own head. You know, like the outrage you
spouted for months about me being a predator
existed only in your own head. 

YOU MAKE SHIT UP, EDG. And then you get *outraged*
about the shit you make up. 

I'm just trying to help you realize this, so you
won't come off as so much of a buffoon.

 I'm trying over here, honest.  Not that this post is a good 
 example of such, since you did prong me enough to get negative 
 on your ass.

Edg, the ONLY thing I did to prong you was to
write honestly about my personal experiences.

Your decision to go negative was based entirely
on your own overreaction to hearing those exper-
iences. I wasn't trying to sell you anything; I
wasn't trying to convince you of anything. You
decided to go crazy ALL ON YOUR OWN.

 So fuck your attitude and fuck you for bashing me gratuitously 
 when I'm trying to make nice here and simply have an exchange 
 of some worth with you. 

Poor, poor, victimized Edg. You bash the shit out
of me, over stuff that EXISTS ONLY IN YOUR HEAD,
and you portray that as making nice.

You're not only a little crazy, Edg, you are 
hypocritically crazy. Learn to laugh at yourself,
dude. Everyone else is. You'll feel better if you
join in with the laughter.

 Seems you're still smarting from my many 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[I am the eternal]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.comwrote:

So we never leave the dream world.  We lived a dream world in the TMO and we
left to live in an even dreamier world?

I'm going back to the Self.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
 determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
 in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
 It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
 ever talks about their spiritual experiences.


Only fools and inexperienced souls like The Turq would consider 
dreams and astral travel spiritual experiences. Yet he does, thus 
demonstrating his spiritual naivite.

It's not spiritual, these are harmless experiences for many, many 
people, often born from lack of mind-body coordination and often due 
to the over-use of drugs.

For some Buddhists like Vaj and The Turq a simple out outofthebody-
experience will be spiritual.
 
For TM-er's this is a field of astral tricks long ago transcended.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... 
wrote:

 Jumping in. I've never had any instruction on how to control lucid
 dreams, have no intention intention to do so, but find that I can 
if I
 want to. If lucid dreaming spontaneously occurs, it sometimes 
happens
 in the dome during rest after program. If I had a particularly
 blissful program, during rest, maybe it's kundalini, I don't really
 know, but it feels like my crown chakra is plugged into a light
 socket. Here's the re-occurring sequence: I'm resting, my eyes are
 closed but I see everything and everyone in the dome. I start to
 fly above everyone and can control where I go and what I see. 
As I
 rise higher above everyone I can fly anywhere, over roof tops, 
into
 the clouds, to the moon, the stars, the sun, wherever. The longer I
 fly the move intense the feeling of electricity flooding my 
brain.
 Sometimes I hear choirs of angels and I can direct the music.
 Sometimes, I see Maharishi or Guru Dev or a bright light that 
looks
 like me looking back at me or a third eye right in front of my 
third
 eye, but more like an elephant eye, like Ganesha and I can decide to
 observe it. I don't know what it means and 

I don't care.

 I take a
 neutral attitude toward it and I just enjoy it when it happens. Some
 might call my experience astral travel but on this subject I do
 remember Maharishi cautioning We don't leave the house if it isn't
 clean. If I am astral traveling hopefully, my house is clean 
enough
 that I can leave it for a few minutes without having uninvited 
guests
 showing up.

I like that you say I don't care because these experiences belong 
to the gap between the relative and the absolute, they are as such 
not interesting but for the personality to enjoy temporarily. 

They are a an amusing by-product of what you just experienced in 
Programme. 

Whereas for people like the Turq or Vaj (who never did TMSP in the 
first place) these little things are paramount and very interesting.

I was present when someone presented a similar story as yours, in 
Seelisberg. Maharishi did not caution the fellow but rather said that 
since you already are the universe he could roam wherever he wanted 
without fear.

You are certainly clean. Have no fears. Enjoy !
 
Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of
  determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested
  in the odd things I am, and wants to swap stories.
  It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody
  ever talks about their spiritual experiences.
 
 
 Only fools and inexperienced souls like The Turq would consider 
 dreams and astral travel spiritual experiences. Yet he does, thus 
 demonstrating his spiritual naivite.
 
 It's not spiritual, these are harmless experiences for many, many 
 people, often born from lack of mind-body coordination and often 
due 
 to the over-use of drugs.
 
 For some Buddhists like Vaj and The Turq a simple out 
outofthebody-
 experience will be spiritual.
  
 For TM-er's this is a field of astral tricks long ago transcended.

Just to add; for some souls these experiences goes on for many, many 
years and they are real and not tricks. In my experience, and 
that of many others they will wane, being overtaken by a situation 
of Heaven on Earth where both realities are expeienced 
simultaneously.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is
 pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter-
 ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences
 of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No experts,
 no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out.


I have long been able to be conscious of my dreams as dreams and control
their outcome.  When I was a child, like many, I had terrible
nightmares.  My mother said think about looking for signs for knowing
something is a dream.  That suggestion was an effective way of teaching
me to lucid dream.  Also, we did a lot of dream talk at home which
encouraged the remembering of dreams.  Reviewing your dreams after they
occur help you remember them plus helps you get some measure of control.
When thinking about this thread I went to the wikipedia entry on lucid
dreaming.  The article gives some suggestions on how to lucid dream. 
What I thought was interesting was the section where it talks about
going to sleep while maintaining some awareness, which will then allow
you to lucid dream.  The description which I quote below sounds like
something a meditator would describe:



During the actual transition into the dream state, one is likely to
experience sleep paralysis, including rapid vibrations,[15] a sequence
of loud sounds and a feeling of twirling into another state of body
awareness, to drift off into another dimension, or the feeling like
passing the interface between water into air face-front body first, or
images or sceneries they are thinking of and trying to visualize
gradually sharpen and become real, which they can actually see,
instead of the fuzzy indefinable sensations one feels when trying to
imagine something when wide awake.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[ruthsimplicity]

Here is an interesting article on lucid dreaming and the blurred lines
between awake and sleep:  http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html

[FairfieldLife] Re: Call for Lucid Dreaming stories

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ 
 wrote:
 
  Jumping in. I've never had any instruction on how to control lucid
  dreams, have no intention intention to do so, but find that I can 
 if I
  want to. If lucid dreaming spontaneously occurs, it sometimes 
 happens
  in the dome during rest after program. If I had a particularly
  blissful program, during rest, maybe it's kundalini, I don't really
  know, but it feels like my crown chakra is plugged into a light
  socket. Here's the re-occurring sequence: I'm resting, my eyes are
  closed but I see everything and everyone in the dome. I start to
  fly above everyone and can control where I go and what I see. 
 As I
  rise higher above everyone I can fly anywhere, over roof tops, 
 into
  the clouds, to the moon, the stars, the sun, wherever. The longer I
  fly the move intense the feeling of electricity flooding my 
 brain.
  Sometimes I hear choirs of angels and I can direct the music.
  Sometimes, I see Maharishi or Guru Dev or a bright light that 
 looks
  like me looking back at me or a third eye right in front of my 
 third
  eye, but more like an elephant eye, like Ganesha and I can decide to
  observe it. I don't know what it means and 
 
 I don't care.
 
  I take a
  neutral attitude toward it and I just enjoy it when it happens. Some
  might call my experience astral travel but on this subject I do
  remember Maharishi cautioning We don't leave the house if it isn't
  clean. If I am astral traveling hopefully, my house is clean 
 enough
  that I can leave it for a few minutes without having uninvited 
 guests
  showing up.
 
 I like that you say I don't care because these experiences belong 
 to the gap between the relative and the absolute, they are as such 
 not interesting but for the personality to enjoy temporarily. 
 
 They are a an amusing by-product of what you just experienced in 
 Programme. 
 
 Whereas for people like the Turq or Vaj (who never did TMSP in the 
 first place) these little things are paramount and very interesting.
 
 I was present when someone presented a similar story as yours, in 
 Seelisberg. Maharishi did not caution the fellow but rather said that 
 since you already are the universe he could roam wherever he wanted 
 without fear.
 
 You are certainly clean. Have no fears. Enjoy !
  
 Jai Guru Dev


Thanks Nabby. It's good to know Maharishi has commented on similar
experiences. As always, I just take it as it comes.