Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz writes: My comments are not about either perfection or 'strict adherence to the printed score', they're about playing -- or being committed to play -- what's written down without excuses or slovenliness, and for the conductor to (a) notice and (b) point it out. [snip] It's also not made clear from the start that the players are expected to do their best to perform what's shown on the page, and not willy-nilly think of notational indications as optional niceties that their compositional judgment, however immature, may override. It really *is* staggering, and an example of a point I've made before on this list: that many performers (and, it seems, conductors) don't ultimately care about the music they're playing -- and so composers are wise to insist on detailed notation rather than leave judgments in the hands of players they don't already know well and trust implicitly. David has ably set out the problems faced by amateur ensembles and their conductors. I would like to comment on another aspect of Dennis' remarks. Dennis, you are indeed arguing for strict adherence to the printed socre. The problem is that musical notation never has, does not today, and never will give the performer absolutely all the information needed for a performance. There are always assumptions, often never even thought about. That's called style. Music always has been and always will be a collaboration between composer and performer (often with an arranger standing between the two, and with a large ensemble always with a conductor standing between them). The responsibility is shared. In the Baroque era that was understood by composer and performer alike. In the Renaissance it was an absolute necessity, since the band leader or head chorister always had to make performance decisions on something as simple as the distribution of parts among singers and instrumentalists. The musical notations developed in the 11th century by Guido, added to in the late 12th century at Notre Dame de Paris, and further developed by Franco, Petrus de Cruce, and Phillipe de Vitry in the 13th and early 14th centuries gave the minimum amount of information needed by the performers. Notation changed when music changed, and new ways of indicating new melodic or rhythmic concepts had to be newly invented, just as happened during the 20th century. It was a blueprint, albeit a crude one in some ways (but very exact in others), from which the performer was expected to create a performance, and it was understood that probably no two performances of the same music would ever be identical. That's just as true (or should be) of every Baroque piece using figured bass, and every jazz piece using chord symbols. It's fine to be prescriptive, if that is your mindset, and to say I want everything that's on the page and nothing that isn't on the page, but music isn't one damn note after another. Music must communicate, must have soul, and must touch the heart and mind of the listener, and markings on a page cannot do that. A skilled, musical, artistic performer can, taking the notes as the blueprint they still are today, and finding the music that is hidden in those markings. In a very real sense, music is phrasing, and phrasing has too many variables to be completely rendered in notation. To draw a crude analogy, a carpenter may follow a blueprint exactly, but he has to decide where to put the nails. And if his blueprint contains an error--equivalent to a composer specifying a tempo that sounds like crap--he has the responsibility of fixing that error. One difference between today and previous centuries is that the old guys weren't composing for publication, for glory, or for self-expression. They were composing for next week's concert, for the week after's church service, for the Duke's garden party, or for themselves and their own students. And yes, they were ALWAYS writing for singers and players whom they already knew well and trusted implicitly. And they were such fine craftsmen that their music still speaks to us, even though we may have lost the instictive way of interpreting that music that both the composers and the performers took for granted. When you write for publication, you lose the right to pick and choose your performers, and you face the reality of having your music played by fallible human beings whom you do NOT know and trust implicitly. I'm not foolishly saying that a composer's wishes aren't very important, but with rare exceptions the composer isn't the performer, and has responsibility to provide as detailed a blueprint as possible, to make sure that it is playable AND sounds good as written, and to answer in advance any questions that may arise. On that we agree. And the performer's responsibility is to take that blueprint and turn it into music, using the tools that are available. Barring mental telepathy, that isn't going to change. John --
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:57:27 -0400, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It's not about the pedal A, it's about the attitude -- we'll change whatever the composer wrote / whenever it's a bother to play the note. Then, there is the we'll change what the composer wrote, because they couldn't have meant what they wrote attitude. Happened to a student of mine a couple of days ago. During the rehearsal of (quite a dense) orchestral piece, the vibraphone player insisted on playing everything with pedal, despite the extremely clear (and frequent) reminders in the part to play nearly all of it _without_ any pedal. It was ruining the musical effect, and the conductor wasn't catching it- there were enough other mistakes keeping him occupied, I suppose. My student managed to have a word with the player during the break, and things were fine by the evening's performance. The comment from the player was interesting though- Oh, I didn't play it without pedal because I've never played anything on the vibraphone without pedal before. This is a player who will presumably go on the job market in a few years... David -- David Horne | www.davidhorne.co.uk note that email address has changed slightly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is no longer read tel:+44(0)161-796-7964|fax:+44(0) 870-133-9627|mobile:+44(0)7904-114580 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 2:15 PM -0500 10/03/03, Richard Huggins wrote: Ray, your statement is curious to me. First I'm not exactly certain what you mean by mere alteration of the printed pitch. What's mere about it? Are you suggesting that a ledger-line note is more respected than a note with an 8va on it? Second, are you saying that the performer might arbitrarily decide the composer didn't really mean it? I'd like to answer for Ray. Yes. I suppose in the fabulous world that we would all like to live in, where composers ALWAYS know everything about the instruments and their characteristics, and players always have complete, virtuostic technical control and endless endurance, such problems would never come up. But I can't tell you how many times a composer has marked something 8va but didn't REALLY mean it. (usually 8va, though on tuba and bass trombone I sometimes see passages marked 8vb that make them completely unplayable.) It sounded good on his synth at home, but it is not practical in many instances, or even if it is playable when he really hears it played by real players, it is too intense for the context. In those situations, I hear musicians ask the composer (if he is present) or the conductor Did you REALLY want this passage in that octave? and I'd say about 3 times out of 5 it turns out that if the musician has to ask, then the composer decides that he DIDN'T really want it in that octave. Sad, but true. I hope, through tireless education, to change this situation, but I'm not holding out too much hope. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 7:50 PM 10/03/03, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Why choose music you can't play well, or don't want to play well, or don't want even to try to play well? I can't speak to the latter two, but the reason to choose music you can't play well is because you love the music and you hope that some day you'll be able to play it perfectly, but in the meantime playing it imperfectly is much better than not playing it at all. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I am chiming in late on the overworked 8va vs. leger line fight: As a performer, I have sometimes observed other performers, good and bad, amateur and professional, ignore 8va markings when it suited their purpose. (Such as I don't like this piece, and I don't feel like working that hard by playing that high or that low). They are _much_ less likely to alter an extreme note that is written with leger lines. An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Ray, your statement is curious to me. First I'm not exactly certain what you mean by mere alteration of the printed pitch. What's mere about it? Are you suggesting that a ledger-line note is more respected than a note with an 8va on it? Second, are you saying that the performer might arbitrarily decide the composer didn't really mean it? Richard From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Hey! Don't shoot the messenger! I've seen it happen, that's all. I've seen 8va markings for extreme ranges ignored, occasionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. They seem to be taken less seriously, sometimes, by some players, then are leger lines. A typical example: Tuba part has an isolated low A with an 8ba under it. One player I used to work with, many years ago, would tend to ignore the 8ba in a case like that and just play the low A, not the pedal A. If that note, on the other hand, was written with 6 leger lines and a space, he would have been less likely to take it up an octave. Speaking for myself (and most of the good musicians I work with), I always try very, very hard to play everything the composer writes. (The most common exception for me would be something that is commonly written for bass trombone but makes little effect: a loud, low, pedal note, flutter tongued. Usually this is more successful without the flutter.) Just this morning we got to watch our percussionists running around before dress rehearsal tuning their wine glasses. (We also decided that He's been tuning his wine glasses again is a great euphemism for a percussionist falling off the wagon.) And, sure enough, the slow movement of the piece by A. Louie ended with a beautiful, ethereal chord of wine glasses. So I'm not saying that pros don't care. I'm just trying to help others on the list avoid pitfalls. These are in-the-field observations (together with my guesses at the reasoning behind them), folks. Just read them and factor them with all the other things you've learned. Just don't jump on me for what I've heard and seen other musicians do! I've gone through this phenomenon before on this list! (Remember the scordatura argument? A pro violin section WON'T DO IT! They'll tear your piece up first! If that's what you want written in your Groves article, fine, but if you want to hear a pro orchestra play your piece NOW, then put the low F# in the VIOLAS, dammit! And it's NOT MY FAULT! ... There, there, calm down, Ray) RH - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Ray, your statement is curious to me. First I'm not exactly certain what you mean by mere alteration of the printed pitch. What's mere about it? Are you suggesting that a ledger-line note is more respected than a note with an 8va on it? Second, are you saying that the performer might arbitrarily decide the composer didn't really mean it? Richard From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am chiming in late on the overworked 8va vs. leger line fight: As a performer, I have sometimes observed other performers, good and bad, amateur and professional, ignore 8va markings when it suited their purpose. (Such as I don't like this piece, and I don't feel like working that hard by playing that high or that low). They are _much_ less likely to alter an extreme note that is written with leger lines. An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Geez, Roy...you took my message way wrong. When I said curious, that's exactly and only what I meant. Nothing more and most certainly nothing adversarial! That being said, I can relate to the notion of the player second-guessing something that seems to be an example of an arranger or composer who did not seem to know the instrument very well. I would think this sort of thing varies according to the reputation (if any) of the composer or arranger; possibly the conductor's influence; and practical factors, such as it sounding like crap... --RH ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I wholeheartedly agree with Ray and others. Players- especially 'non-pros', tend to treat 8ves (up or down) as optional. And to Richard- Yes, I'm afraid that outside of the do it or you're fired world of the pros, leger lines are more respected than 8ve etc. And as for the scordatura- try getting 'stopped horns' in the real world of Community Bands!- or even find a full brass section with mutes- especially anything other than straights! Cheers Keith in OZ - Original Message - From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Hey! Don't shoot the messenger! I've seen it happen, that's all. I've seen 8va markings for extreme ranges ignored, occasionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. They seem to be taken less seriously, sometimes, by some players, then are leger lines. A typical example: Tuba part has an isolated low A with an 8ba under it. One player I used to work with, many years ago, would tend to ignore the 8ba in a case like that and just play the low A, not the pedal A. If that note, on the other hand, was written with 6 leger lines and a space, he would have been less likely to take it up an octave. Speaking for myself (and most of the good musicians I work with), I always try very, very hard to play everything the composer writes. (The most common exception for me would be something that is commonly written for bass trombone but makes little effect: a loud, low, pedal note, flutter tongued. Usually this is more successful without the flutter.) Just this morning we got to watch our percussionists running around before dress rehearsal tuning their wine glasses. (We also decided that He's been tuning his wine glasses again is a great euphemism for a percussionist falling off the wagon.) And, sure enough, the slow movement of the piece by A. Louie ended with a beautiful, ethereal chord of wine glasses. So I'm not saying that pros don't care. I'm just trying to help others on the list avoid pitfalls. These are in-the-field observations (together with my guesses at the reasoning behind them), folks. Just read them and factor them with all the other things you've learned. Just don't jump on me for what I've heard and seen other musicians do! I've gone through this phenomenon before on this list! (Remember the scordatura argument? A pro violin section WON'T DO IT! They'll tear your piece up first! If that's what you want written in your Groves article, fine, but if you want to hear a pro orchestra play your piece NOW, then put the low F# in the VIOLAS, dammit! And it's NOT MY FAULT! ... There, there, calm down, Ray) RH - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Ray, your statement is curious to me. First I'm not exactly certain what you mean by mere alteration of the printed pitch. What's mere about it? Are you suggesting that a ledger-line note is more respected than a note with an 8va on it? Second, are you saying that the performer might arbitrarily decide the composer didn't really mean it? Richard From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am chiming in late on the overworked 8va vs. leger line fight: As a performer, I have sometimes observed other performers, good and bad, amateur and professional, ignore 8va markings when it suited their purpose. (Such as I don't like this piece, and I don't feel like working that hard by playing that high or that low). They are _much_ less likely to alter an extreme note that is written with leger lines. An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Ray Horton wrote: Hey! Don't shoot the messenger! I've seen it happen, that's all. I've seen 8va markings for extreme ranges ignored, occasionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. They seem to be taken less seriously, sometimes, by some players, then are leger lines. I have to agree with Ray's very practical observation. I happen to be playing tuba in our Community Band. (Bass trombone is my band axe, but we have a full trombone section and needed tubas.) The tuba I was able to borrow is a 3-valve Eb, so it lacks the low range. (Yes, I've finally figured out how to get the half-wavelength notes, but the instrument is a nice English Besson and what I would have considered logical fingerings didn't work, so I had to experiement.) Some composers and some arrangers assume that every tuba in every band is a BBb, and write accordingly. When we play that music, I have to make continuous choices and basically rewrite the part to fit my instrument. The opening to the John Williams theme from Saving Private Ryan, for instance, sits down on an Ab, piano, for a real long time, and my half-wavelength low Ab isn't all that pretty, but the note's needed so I try to produce it. If the note were fast, I'd automatically play it an octave higher than written. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 08:05 AM 10/4/03 +1000, helgesen wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with Ray and others. Players- especially 'non-pros', tend to treat 8ves (up or down) as optional. And to Richard- Yes, I'm afraid that outside of the do it or you're fired world of the pros, leger lines are more respected than 8ve etc. In all this discussion ... where is the conductor? What conductor would put up with this behavior, pro or not? I've conducted plenty of amateurs, and by golly they played what was written, or tried to. If there was an impossibility or poor writing or arranging, it might be time for a change. As a composer, I'm pretty staggered by this entire aspect of ignoring notation! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Well, grab onto something and steady yourself. Conductors are often caught between a rock and a hard place -- balancing the preparation of many weeks of concerts with the strict adherence to the printed score. Many community bands come together for a rehearsal or two and then essentially to sight-read 10 or 12 weekly concerts. And as a composer you can be as angry or upset or put-out or indignant about it as you wish, but the fact of the matter is that not all of us are blessed with audition-only, play-everything-perfectly-or-you're-out groups. Many of us work with less-than-ideal situations from a musical-perfection point-of-view. I paraphrase that old prayer: God grant me the strength to fix those passages can be fixed, the serenity to accept that which can never be played quite perfectly and the wisdom to know the difference. With my community orchestra I was amazed at how quickly the would forget what we had gone over at the previous rehearsal regarding rhythms, pitches, basic stuff. Often the next rehearsal would seem like they were reading the music for the very first time. I am happy for you that you never have had to work in such situations. Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 08:05 AM 10/4/03 +1000, helgesen wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with Ray and others. Players- especially 'non-pros', tend to treat 8ves (up or down) as optional. And to Richard- Yes, I'm afraid that outside of the do it or you're fired world of the pros, leger lines are more respected than 8ve etc. In all this discussion ... where is the conductor? What conductor would put up with this behavior, pro or not? I've conducted plenty of amateurs, and by golly they played what was written, or tried to. If there was an impossibility or poor writing or arranging, it might be time for a change. As a composer, I'm pretty staggered by this entire aspect of ignoring notation! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 07:09 PM 10/3/03 -0400, David H. Bailey wrote: Conductors are often caught between a rock and a hard place -- balancing the preparation of many weeks of concerts with the strict adherence to the printed score. Many community bands come together for a rehearsal or two and then essentially to sight-read 10 or 12 weekly concerts. And as a composer you can be as angry or upset or put-out or indignant about it as you wish, but the fact of the matter is that not all of us are blessed with audition-only, play-everything-perfectly-or-you're-out groups. Many of us work with less-than-ideal situations from a musical-perfection point-of-view. I paraphrase that old prayer: God grant me the strength to fix those passages can be fixed, the serenity to accept that which can never be played quite perfectly and the wisdom to know the difference. With my community orchestra I was amazed at how quickly the would forget what we had gone over at the previous rehearsal regarding rhythms, pitches, basic stuff. Often the next rehearsal would seem like they were reading the music for the very first time. My comments are not about either perfection or 'strict adherence to the printed score', they're about playing -- or being committed to play -- what's written down without excuses or slovenliness, and for the conductor to (a) notice and (b) point it out. Why choose music you can't play well, or don't want to play well, or don't want even to try to play well? And to stand by damaging it, no less, by blaming it on some 'rock and hard place' decision that you've chosen for yourself! Just leave it alone, and do something that can actually be accomplished. And if that can't be done, for goodness sake, have some principles and don't do it at all! This is the saddest defense of shoddy behavior as I've ever heard. In this community of folks who are worried about the minuscule placement of accent marks or elegant spacing proportions, you are happy not only to defend but to encourage and participate in the making of the musical equivalent of chicken scratch. I love amateur performers. On the looking-up side of the baton, I am one, and know the struggle. But something is very wrong when the music is not appropriately chosen and, if that's been done, it's also not made clear from the start that the players are expected to do their best to perform what's shown on the page, and not willy-nilly think of notational indications as optional niceties that their compositional judgment, however immature, may override. It really *is* staggering, and an example of a point I've made before on this list: that many performers (and, it seems, conductors) don't ultimately care about the music they're playing -- and so composers are wise to insist on detailed notation rather than leave judgments in the hands of players they don't already know well and trust implicitly. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I'm glad you can hear every tuba pedal A that goes by in every crazy piece of new music that gets played, because our conductors haven't been able to! RH - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet In all this discussion ... where is the conductor? What conductor would put up with this behavior, pro or not? I've conducted plenty of amateurs, and by golly they played what was written, or tried to. If there was an impossibility or poor writing or arranging, it might be time for a change. As a composer, I'm pretty staggered by this entire aspect of ignoring notation! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 09:51 PM 10/3/03 -0400, Ray Horton wrote: I'm glad you can hear every tuba pedal A that goes by in every crazy piece of new music that gets played, because our conductors haven't been able to! It's not about the pedal A, it's about the attitude -- we'll change whatever the composer wrote / whenever it's a bother to play the note. But you knew that. ;) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Well, my name's Ray, but gosh, Robert, we all make mistakes. I'll ease off on the medication before I hit reply next time ; ) RH - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Geez, Roy...you took my message way wrong. When I said curious, that's exactly and only what I meant. Nothing more and most certainly nothing adversarial! ... --RH ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
But you asked where the conductor was. Conductors simply do not hear everything! Yes, the single performer's attitude, in this one example, was a bad one, obviously. I was simply giving the list some advice on how a composer could guard against such a performer's attitude in this type of case. Which would rather do: complain about musicians, or hear your pedal A? And, although this thread went quickly toward amateurs, one specific tuba player I had in mind was a pro who could play as fine a pedal register as anyone, when he wanted to. RH - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet At 09:51 PM 10/3/03 -0400, Ray Horton wrote: I'm glad you can hear every tuba pedal A that goes by in every crazy piece of new music that gets played, because our conductors haven't been able to! It's not about the pedal A, it's about the attitude -- we'll change whatever the composer wrote / whenever it's a bother to play the note. But you knew that. ;) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 9/30/2003 04:43 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: This certainly was not true for me, either on clarinet or bassoon. Note names were associated with the notation from the very beginning. What came later was the idea that note names recurred in different octaves. Agreed. And that the different octaves had different fingerings. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 10:47 PM 9/29/03 -0400, Tim Thompson wrote: I was rehearsing a piece today on tenor sax with a pianist. My part went up to C (5 lines above), and I don't have to think too hard about that, as I am only reading one line, but the pianist was constantly asking what's that note? I work with a brilliant pianist whose sight is poor. He always prefers 8va markings on passages (not just a few notes). He had a particularly difficult time with one score he commissioned from me last year; it had some extreme low and high passages. When I then 8va'd the score for him, other pianists also commented that it was easier to read. Though it was a small sample (just five pianists), none preferred the ledger lines (one even re-wrote the score by hand because he was shy to ask for a copy without ledger lines!). Keyboardists, conductors, and composers are notational generalists, though, aren't they? Performers on instruments with well-exploited extreme ranges are more comfortable with the ledger lines (and of course other techniques), and lines can be liberally used in parts for those players. (As one whose first instrument was the bass clarinet, I know that reading lines below the treble clef still continues to be more 'instinctive' than lines above.) Working with performers for first performances gives valuable feedback. I can adjust the notational presentation if it seems reasonable to change it (immediately with Finale, if necessary). But it's impossible to know how performers will react once you get outside familiar territory. Sometimes they'll complain because they feel it's their duty to find something amiss in a new piece. :) Veering further off topic: I will happily change how a score or part looks -- as long as the changes do not turn the notation into a see Spot run version of what I mean. As some of you probably know, I'm among those who believe notation (like the written word) is more than the representation of potential sound -- and that where changes misrepresent meaning, it is wrong to make them. There will always be unhappy consequences. [I capitulated to see Spot run for a premiere some years ago. The piece (chamber music for five performers) was created without barlines. But despite frequent dotted guidelines (for rehearsal) and plenty of musical pulsation in some parts, the group still demanded it be broken into measures of simple meters. I did that. And I soon regretted it (too late to change it back) because they then played the notes perfectly in place, but never 'got' the melodic flow because the presence of barlines created an illusion of syncopations (as well as an ugly mess o' notes). Their performance was filled with not-quite-right meter-native accents, breath intakes, nodding, and other distractions that revealed they have given up the musical meaning for counting through music that now looked much more difficult.] To return to the ledger lines question: I use the clear-at-three-feet rule, based on my aging vision. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:20 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: To return to the ledger lines question: I use the clear-at-three-feet rule, based on my aging vision. Good rule. I haven't quite hit 40 yet, and I'm sure that when I do, I will have a new appreciation for that! On the senza misura question, I know from personal experience that many performers want to know exactly when to play, and don't do well with approximate rhythmic notation. But as soon as one makes the notation more specific, then the freeness is hopelessly lost. Tim ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Based on anecdotal evidence, I would agree with this theory (in most cases). Tim On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:52 AM, Daniel Dorff wrote: I've heard some editors point out that the piano keyboard looks the same in each octave and requires the same eye/hand coordination patterns in any octave, whereas wind and string instruments are fingered differently in the highest registers compared to below. A flutist associates high high C above the 5th line with a certain fingering and seeing that note up there sets up automatic muscle memory in fingers and embouchure that isn't true for the visual experience of the C on the 2nd ledger line. This kinetic reaction to notation can carry over to general registers/octaves of the piano but not to fingering and perhaps tone production. So if this theory is valid, and I believe it is, then it makes most sense to always write for flute without 8va signs, but to sometimes use them for piano. It sounds like Dennis's colleagues would agree with this. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:52:35 -0400, Daniel Dorff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So if this theory is valid, and I believe it is, then it makes most sense to always write for flute without 8va signs, but to sometimes use them for piano. It sounds like Dennis's colleagues would agree with this. Some composers have a habit of writing extremely high piano notes (6 or more ledger lines) but writing the note name above it. At least in reading situations, I've always found this difficult to read, and counter-productive. That said, with regular eyesight, reading up to 5 ledger lines for a pianist really shouldn't be an issue, but I'd agree that if the music stays in a register with several ledger lines, an 8va sign would probably be appropriate. I don't think Dennis was referring to this, but I've played from scores where 8va signs were used in a register where none of the resultant notes went above the stave. Personally, I find this quite difficult to read (certainly in a sight- reading, rehearsal situation) and a number of other pianists I've talked to have similar reactions. I think it's partly because, on the whole, we're not used to reading 8va notes there. While I'm at it, mixing 8va and non 8va notes in rapid passages can be difficult to read, because there is a disjuncture between what you see, and what the hand has to stretch to. That's no doubt obvious, but I see it quite a bit- and of course there are many older pieces which are notated this way. All of this is more of an issue for initial reading, but let's face it, that's the situation many composers will find themselves in- with limited reharsal time, etc. David -- David Horne | www.davidhorne.co.uk note that email address has changed slightly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is no longer read tel:+44(0)161-796-7964|fax:+44(0) 870-133-9627|mobile:+44(0)7904-114580 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 07:58 AM, David Horne wrote: On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:52:35 -0400, Daniel Dorff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So if this theory is valid, and I believe it is, then it makes most sense to always write for flute without 8va signs, but to sometimes use them for piano. It sounds like Dennis's colleagues would agree with this. Some composers have a habit of writing extremely high piano notes (6 or more ledger lines) but writing the note name above it. At least in reading situations, I've always found this difficult to read, and counter-productive. That said, with regular eyesight, reading up to 5 ledger lines for a pianist really shouldn't be an issue, but I'd agree that if the music stays in a register with several ledger lines, an 8va sign would probably be appropriate. I don't think Dennis was referring to this, but I've played from scores where 8va signs were used in a register where none of the resultant notes went above the stave. Personally, I find this quite difficult to read (certainly in a sight- reading, rehearsal situation) and a number of other pianists I've talked to have similar reactions. I think it's partly because, on the whole, we're not used to reading 8va notes there. While I'm at it, mixing 8va and non 8va notes in rapid passages can be difficult to read, because there is a disjuncture between what you see, and what the hand has to stretch to. That's no doubt obvious, but I see it quite a bit- and of course there are many older pieces which are notated this way. All of this is more of an issue for initial reading, but let's face it, that's the situation many composers will find themselves in- with limited reharsal time, etc. Just to corroborate: on the piano, I'm so comfortable with exactly what an octave looks like that, with several ledger lines above the treble staff, I can nearly automatically see its counterpart an octave below. Thus, figuring out high notes is never a problem, because I can just read it an octave down and put my hand an octave to the right. In my mind, this is very similar to reading for clarinet or tenor sax from a piano score. it's just a different degree of mental transposition. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
At 10:10 AM 9/30/03 -0400, Tim Thompson wrote: On the senza misura question, I know from personal experience that many performers want to know exactly when to play, and don't do well with approximate rhythmic notation. But as soon as one makes the notation more specific, then the freeness is hopelessly lost. I wasn't clear. The music was without barlines, but was otherwise very specific. The long lines were very detailed, but had no consistent meter to them, nor in relationship to the other parts. However, the notes always 'lined up' rhythmically. It's reminiscent (if it's reminiscent at all!) of Ockeghem via Reich, except with much longer phrases before a cadence of any kind is reached. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On the senza misura question, I know from personal experience that many performers want to know exactly when to play, and don't do well with approximate rhythmic notation. But as soon as one makes the notation more specific, then the freeness is hopelessly lost. Tim I do some of my Renaissance choral editions without barlines, which may not be entirely what you're thinking of. The originals almost never had barlines, so the singer could see the shape of his part and--having been brought up singing chant in groupings of 2s and 3s--find the proper phrasing for each part. That is completely destroyed by accurate modern notation with barlines, whether through the staves or between them. But about half of my singers end up marking in the bar lines anyhow. I do put in bar numbers for rehearsal purposes, and I do put the parts in score, not separately as in the originals. What I would not call this is approximate rhythmic notation. It is very exact notation, but the singer has to sing the individual note lengths accurately without the crutch of bar lines. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:52 AM, Daniel Dorff wrote (in part): A flutist associates high high C above the 5th line with a certain fingering and seeing that note up there sets up automatic muscle memory in fingers and embouchure that isn't true for the visual experience of the C on the 2nd ledger line. Yes, and another way to think about this is to realize that beginning instrumentalists do not first learn to identify, label and play notes, but fingerings. They learn, in other words, a tablature that applies to their instrument, with each line or space denoting a specific fingering. Labeling those lines and spaces with note names is a lot more intellectual, and generally comes later in the learning process. When I first added viola to my violin playing, I didn't know what notes I was playing for a long time, but I did know how to finger them! On the matter of ledger lines, I've enjoyed reading this thread, but it's really a non-argument. Instrumentalists learn to read the ledger lines that are typically used for their own instrument, and are uncomfortable reading ledger lines that are not. It's a matter of learning, like learning tenor or alto clef if it is not native to your instrument, and anyone can do it. Therefore I would second the suggestions that extended bass clarinet parts remain in treble clef with a 9th transposition. What I would NOT do is expect an orchestral player (and certainly not a band player) to have a low C bass clarinet or even have access to one at any level below fully-professional, full-time orchestral specialists. Which comes down to the basic question of whom your music is intended for, and how willing you are to limit its playability by writing in ranges that are not, in fact, universal. There's a big difference between writing for publication and writing for immediate performance by people whose capabilities you are familiar with, like the old guys did. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Yes, and another way to think about this is to realize that beginning instrumentalists do not first learn to identify, label and play notes, but fingerings. They learn, in other words, a tablature that applies to their instrument, with each line or space denoting a specific fingering. Labeling those lines and spaces with note names is a lot more intellectual, and generally comes later in the learning process. John Howell This certainly was not true for me, either on clarinet or bassoon. Note names were associated with the notation from the very beginning. What came later was the idea that note names recurred in different octaves. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Daniel Dorff: when there's music for the bottom few notes, that's a lot of ledger lines, leaving 3 options: a) write treble clef at the normal transposition a 9th higher than sounds, and let the player get used to ledger lines or pencil in the note names, Oh c'mon, it's only 4 lines! Tuba players routinely read 5, and even the unextended bcl needs four for the occasional low D#. I just can't see this being an issue for any professional. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Andrew, I think we're agreeing, as (a) was my first choice. The reasons why I brought up the other options are that I do see them on music put in front of me, and that clarinetists aren't used to as many ledger lines below as tubists, which is why they should get used to seeing them. -DD - Original Message - From: Andrew Stiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Daniel Dorff: when there's music for the bottom few notes, that's a lot of ledger lines, leaving 3 options: a) write treble clef at the normal transposition a 9th higher than sounds, and let the player get used to ledger lines or pencil in the note names, Oh c'mon, it's only 4 lines! Tuba players routinely read 5, and even the unextended bcl needs four for the occasional low D#. I just can't see this being an issue for any professional. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 05:01 PM, Daniel Dorff wrote: The reasons why I brought up the other options are that I do see them on music put in front of me, and that clarinetists aren't used to as many ledger lines below as tubists, which is why they should get used to seeing them. But (we) clarinetists are very used to seeing the E down there... a notated C is only one space more. I don't play bass clarinet (not usually, anyway, and I've never used one with a low C), but I can't imagine that any decently proficient player would have any trouble at all. I'm agreeing with you, don't get me wrong... I'm just wondering why anybody would do anything *but* notate it in treble clef transposed at the 9th. The four ledger lines used in such a case are a far cry from the plethora of lines that piccolo and flute players are accustomed to reading... why go easy on some players but not others? - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I was rehearsing a piece today on tenor sax with a pianist. My part went up to C (5 lines above), and I don't have to think too hard about that, as I am only reading one line, but the pianist was constantly asking what's that note? His part frequently had 6 ledger lines on both ends, and only used 8va signs when the top note on the piano was called for! But another pianist I work with prefers it that way--she hates excessive use of 8va signs. And a violinist I have helped with some scale books only wants to see ledger lines all the way up--no 8va at all. He says it is confusing! Tim On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 08:31 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 05:01 PM, Daniel Dorff wrote: The reasons why I brought up the other options are that I do see them on music put in front of me, and that clarinetists aren't used to as many ledger lines below as tubists, which is why they should get used to seeing them. But (we) clarinetists are very used to seeing the E down there... a notated C is only one space more. I don't play bass clarinet (not usually, anyway, and I've never used one with a low C), but I can't imagine that any decently proficient player would have any trouble at all. I'm agreeing with you, don't get me wrong... I'm just wondering why anybody would do anything *but* notate it in treble clef transposed at the 9th. The four ledger lines used in such a case are a far cry from the plethora of lines that piccolo and flute players are accustomed to reading... why go easy on some players but not others? - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
