Re: phlegmatic Fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Why do you think they have changed?  I have one from a rescue that was there 
for being uncontrollable, and my hoof-trimmer says he acts like an Arabian.  


On Wed, 9/25/13, Michael  Misha misha...@eoni.com wrote:

 Subject: phlegmatic Fjords
 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
 Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 3:37 PM
 
 This message is from: Michael 
 Misha misha...@eoni.com
 
 
 I like the stories of the quietude of Fjords and I have had
 so many and bred so many rock solid types but over the last
 few years most of the Fjords I have encountered are very
 high energy and reactive. They bolt a lot, and some of them
 buck and rear with the best. The Fjord horse is my favorite
 breed, and i would gladly trade two lively but gentle high
 evaluated big movers for a pokey Fjord of yesteryear. Like
 the ones you are all talking about. I guess it depends on
 what you want to use them for but for those of us who love
 the gentle cart ride or the easy peasy trial ride, the quiet
 ones rock it! i guess it is about buyer beware and not
 assuming!
 
 Misha of Shota Fjords 
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RE: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


...2) Also, context matters. ... --Gail
 
Thanks Gail.  You answered that much better than I could have.


Put a novice on him and he acts like he has no idea what they want him to do.
Granted, they may not have much finesse in their aids but trust me, he knows
what they want, he just doesn't think he has to do it. So training is not the
only thing that goes into getting horses to do or not do what you want, there
are other factors involved. IMO, that is.--Robin

He is not trained to do what novices want him to do, for whatever
reason.  Horses do what they know.  You know what they know by watching what
they do, not by reading their minds.  He knows to do one thing when you get on
him, and another when the novice gets on him, i.e. it's a training issue.  You
might be able to train him by reacting to the assumption he is being willfully
disobedient, but you can do the same thing if you leave out the assumption of
devious thinking on his part, and probably do a better job of it if you look
for the real reasons why he does what he does.

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Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


OK I guess it can't be fixed then.

--- On Wed, 6/26/13, Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, June 26, 2013, 1:22 PM

This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


It is not a training issue.
 
Robin




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Re: horse training

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi Debbie, I missed this email some how.  Odi loves me to rub his ears like
that too.  I am having to work on Bam-Bam being comfortable with touching
his.  That's funny, you carrying the rabbit like a baby.  I know how you can
hold them like that, but if they get scared and kick, they can really
scratch!

Clicker training with horses is pretty new, I think.  To really appreciate
how well it works, you'd just have to try it.  The part that makes it works
so well is the marker (some people use a click).  It lets the horse know
exactly what you are rewarding him for, which speeds up training.  They don't
get it wrong.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net wrote:

From: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net
Subject: horse training
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:58 PM

This message is from: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net


I’ve really enjoyed a lot of the read, the different methods, different of
opinions.  I remember my Lang hanging his head on my shoulder, when he was
ill, not well, head on my shoulder, that heavy head, and me rubbing those
long
“mule” ears I teased him about.  And he with his eyes closed.  I think
he
and my “mom” were the only two that enjoyed this.  I recall over the
years
with Lang, getting shots when he’d had a terrible infection in his gut, a
few years before I lost him, many shots, given by the vet, and many pills, to
save his life.  And me rubbing his ears to sooth him.   If any have had a
domestic rabbit before, one can lay them in your arms much like you’d hold
a
baby, and rub their tummies and it sooth them.  I had one, was a temporary
rabbit.  He was passed from family to family when we were stationed in
Hawaii.
We were lucky to have him for a bit.  I remember rocking him to sleep in my
arms rubbing his tummy, just like a baby.  Forgetting even that he wasn’t
a
baby, while I visited with neighbors.  What a good laugh we had about that.

My first horse I lost, ruptured intestine, had him at a University vet
clinic,
he was heavily sedated, but able to stand and his head on my shoulder, having
to switch shoulders off and on, his head was so heavy.  But talking to him,
a
familiar voice.

I do know that Ynde, had tried to use my shoulder to rub or dry her chin,
after taking the bridle off, and that was not allowed.  Lang use to love to
have his butt scratched, with a rubber curry, and would back me into a corner
so had to not allow that.  I would take him to the cross ties and curry and
curry, and curry.  Ynde too loved to be curried.  All had their favorite
spots.  Usually places they could not reach.

I’ve never done clicker, just had my own way, a mix up of different
methods,
different trainers, things that worked for me, threw out the rest.  I never
liked training that scared the horse.  Never liked running a horse until it
gave.  It seemed to me, too much the horse doing it out of fear.  I’ve
seen
some of the top trainers training horses to load on trailers, lunge lunge
lunge, until they run them into the trailer.  And the horse sweating and
breathing hard.  It seemed a lesson learned in fear.  I remember watching
John
Lyons many many years ago, and another trainer that followed his line of
training, just use a whip the length to reach the butt, or the hock/back leg.
And one stood beside the horse to lead the horse in, if he stopped, then one
would tap tap tap, not hit, but just tap.  Enough tap to irritate.  When
the
horse lifts the leg, stop, rub, and then tap tap tap.  I always kept the
horses head facing into the trailer.  I think I only had one horse this did
not work on.  “mom” she was running away as soon as she saw the trailer.
I didn’t feed treats, there was hay and treats in their hay bag once they
were in.   Sometimes this would take hours when first starting or working
with
one who had fear, many times one would do it day after day after day.  And
if
they’d not been hauled for awhile and I planned to haul, then I’d do it
for several days, just to remind.

I’ve seen some horse trainers on RFD, running the horses in the roundpen,
saddle on them for the first time and then running them.  I guess that works
for them.  Works for some people.  Just wasn’t my way of doing it.

A lot of different ways I suppose.

As far as the herd mind of a horse.  I guess I never did that with mine.  I
always kept only those together that got along and separated those that
didn’t.  All had neighbors, horses each side of them.  I don’t like one
being the boss and one being the one bullied.  Just seems stressful to them,
something for them to worry about.  I took that away from them.  After all,
mine were not in the wilds, on many many acres, out 24/7.  Mine were
stalled,
mine were fed in their stalls, I had runs, I had paddocks.  Some will say
horses are happier out  24/7, being a â

RE: NH and CT?? Mouthy?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Cindy I probably told you, both of mine did that teeth-scrape thing at first,
but then they stopped, I don't know why did it at first or why they stopped. 
Since I had to wear gloves because of the cold anyway, I didn't pay much
attention to it; I thought maybe they just couldn't help it, and that's why
people say don't give horses treats, but it did seem a little excessive, and
not quite accidental, but not really like they were trying to hurt me on
purpose either.  More an emotional over-reaction thing.  But then they
stopped, so I don't know what that was about.
 
I was using baby carrots, but switched to cut-up long carrots (can get them
cheap in bulk for juicing).  That works really well, because I tend to cut
them long and skinny.  So I can just hold them by one end.  Even if they miss
by accidental a little bit, they don't get me.  I just have to not shove the
carrot up their nose by accident.  But even if I use little treats if I run
out of carrots, use their lips now.  I wish I knew what causes them to switch,
but all I can figure is time.  They seem somewhat jaded by treats now.  My
dogs got the same way.  They still want to work for the click, it still has
the same psychological result, but the treat starts seeming like
afterthought.  I guess even carrots get boring after a while. But I never
found anything they liked better, they seem disappointed to repulsed if I use
anything else.
 
Hmm I think I'll ask about that on the CS forum.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:


From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: RE: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 10:06 PM


This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


I do know of someone who would hold the treat in a pair of plyers.  I think it
was Marsha Jo Hanna, who may still be on this list.  The horse found that his
teeth got knocked if he tried to grab a treat from the plyers without being
careful. 

My apologies for assuming you had little experience.  I actually do find that
Clinton Anderson's methods work, but I do prefer to give the horse a less
harsh experience by clicking and treating when the horse gets something right.

Gail

his message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


It is a shame that you had problems with biting.  They are pretty easy to
fix.  

It's not always easy to fix.  Again, I totally realize that somebody else
could do better -- or at least different -- than I did; but this situation was
not easy for me to fix.

Yes, I did work with protected contact.  Yes, I did use the
click-for-turning-your-head-away lessons.  Often he would bite me as he was
taking the treat from my hand.  So I would click him for whatever good
behavior and hold out the treat for him.   (And, yes, I do know about
proper treat delivery.)  He would put his lips in my hand, then bear down,
taking the treat and a bit of skin at the same time, then snatch his head and
the treat back.  Yikes!

Then I tried treating him only with a bucket; but it was just too impractical

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Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I know.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Kim Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Kim Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:46 AM

This message is from: Kim Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com


We definitely have a herd leader here.
I see the hierarchy at work every
day with my 5 horses.
I imagine the only way to not see herd leadership at
work is if you keep your horses in individual paddocks.

My husband definitely
is herd leader over his horse (who is our herd leader) when he steps into the
pasture.

We practice The Method which is Clinton Anderson's NH training.
It
has completely changed our horses into willing partners and they dont expect
treats to be handed to them for it.
While I have checked out CT, I never
really cared for it because I dont think I want my horses to see me as a
treat
vending machine.  : (

Kim in MD






On Jun
23, 2013, at 17:34, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 All that
stuff about being herd leader is mythology

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Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I've never seen them riding on each other. 

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence
To: Fjord List fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:03 AM

This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


From Mary's iPad

PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING  OR FORWARDING THIS  EMAIL.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 17:34, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 All that stuff about being herd leader is mythology

I guess you have never seen horses interact

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RE: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Obviously NH trains horses, but not for the reasons that the people who sell
their particular training methods say they do. People like reasons, it sells
better than, Just do this.

There was a study published recently where they used remote-control toy cars
to train horses, mimicking NH, and it worked.  So unless horses can see toy
cars as their herd leader, that's not what's going on.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: RE: Disposition/intelligence
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:51 AM

This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


 All that stuff about being herd leader is mythology

I guess you have never seen horses interact

I think she was referring to the idea that horses see humans as their herd
leader...as a sort of replacement for the horse leader. 

I agree that there is no evidence that the horse sees someone who does NH with
it as a replacement for a horse.  In order to say that, one needs to be able
to read a horse's mind.  Relationship counselors working in the human context
usually advise one not to read the mind of one's partner, as mistakes can be
made, and the wrong assumptions made about the partner's thoughts may well not
be helpful.  It is relevant to look at what happens when natural horsemanship
is practiced, as inis the horse no longer rearing, screaming, bolting, etc
after he/she has been exposed to the natural horsemanship training?

As BF Skinner said, it is more accurate to view the horse's mind as an opaque
black box and assume you cannot read it.  That way, one can focus on what
actually happens when one interacts with the horse.

Gail

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Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I've been doing CT since I met my fjord last August. 

--- On Sun, 6/23/13, divingduoandcor...@comcast.net
divingduoandcor...@comcast.net wrote:

From: divingduoandcor...@comcast.net divingduoandcor...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: NH and CT??  Mouthy?
To: fjordhorse fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 11:43 PM

This message is from: divingduoandcor...@comcast.net


I am a former dressage/ct person in my mid 50s.   My trainer/friend is 60
and use to train and show all kinds of western disciplines.  I think he
agreed to help me (he does it on the side, more for fun) because he was
curious about Soph.   (and maybe he felt sorry for me moving to the barn
with a serious shoulder injury and then surgery).   My mare is very
smart...she learns things very quickly and sometimes appears to be frustrated
(or embarrassed, really ) when corrected.   Seriously, the look on her face
is interesting...we do not usually need to correct very hard in the first
place .   My trainer is very calm and has never worked with a fjord
before but adores her...we both are enjoying the process.   We do not
ride
with spurs or whips (which I always used to carry) and she is amazingly light
in her response to aids.  He thinks she can learn flying lead changes
soon!   I just wanted to canter without my arms being pulled from their
sockets LOL.  That is where we started 18 months ago.  In a year she has
become an ace trail horse...often leading horses much larger than
herself.  (that's what I told my husband I was going to do - just trails
 haha)  



When we started training (I couldn't ride for months) I was there every ride
possible.   I was not going to tolerate any kind of heavy or harsh
correction.   I really lucked out.   We are very like-minded even though
we come from different backgrounds.



Sorry to ramble but the point being...I don't have much experience in
clicker training but have seen some amazing examples...there was a video of
someone working with a rescue mule going into a shower stall for the first
time (wow), etc.   BUT...I cannot feed Soph by hand or she turns into a
starving pirannha !!   I have lost pulls on vests, coats, actual pockets
 and almost a cell phone she stole out of my pocket.   Almost lost some
skin.   She seems to be back to being curious but not putting everything in
her mouth.   I basically subscribe to trying to reward by release of
pressure.



Obviously not all things work well every time for every horse... but given
the
love of snacks that seems to be an issue with alot of fjords... I would not
think that would be a good approach.?



Just curious ...

Beth, Bob, the Corgis and the Fjord

- Original Message -
From: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:58:57 PM
Subject: NH and CT

This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


I have done a little NH and by no means am I any expert but I thought that it
was helpful in gaining the respect of the horse. I also have played around
with clicker training both with horses and dogs. Magnus caught onto it in
about 15 sec, Levi not so much. I think it takes a lot of patience and it is
difficult to get the timing right. I think it is much easier with dogs but am
no expert at that either. I just find that I don't really need it because I
have taught mine pretty much anything I wanted them to know so far by just
talking to them, rewarding them when appropriate, etc. The stuff I see people
teaching with CT my horses already know. That is not to say that if I wanted
them to do something that they didn't seem to be catching onto that I
wouldn't
be willing to try it again but I just find it difficult and time-consuming.
�
Robin

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Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I know.  You have to actually learn how to do CT, which most people won't do,
because it is gospel that you don't feed horses by hand.  But somehow I can do
it, and a lot of other people can.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: NH and CT??  Mouthy?
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 4:48 AM

This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


BUT...I cannot feed Soph by hand or she turns into a
starving pirannha !! 

I have the same problem. I cannot feed any of my horses by hand if I don' t
want them to start mouthing everything and eventually nipping. This includes
the warmblood. All their treats go in their feed buckets or outside feed
pans.

Robin





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RE: Personalities Intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


:)  When I said horses were much smarter than I ever knew, maybe it's because
I started with a fjord and a mule. 
 
Yes I'm sure all trainers aren't bad.  But there are just so many horror
stories, it seems like a big risk.
 
When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your shoulder, is
that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate?  Mine does that a lot.  A
fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't
escalate beyond that.  He has tried to control me in the past, but he has
gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little residual
bit of that, or just trying to be friendly.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC willowsedgef...@msn.com
wrote:


From: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC willowsedgef...@msn.com
Subject: RE: Personalities  Intelligence
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 9:18 AM


This message is from: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC
willowsedgef...@msn.com


In my years of working with the Fjords, I've found them to be ridiculously
smart. Each horse has it's own personality which changes how they will learn,
but have not found a dumb one yet. :)

In our training program, we start babies at Day 1! They are handled and
handled and handled. We have 4 foals this year (including a tall, white stud
colt if anyone's interested...) that are now between 3-7 weeks. They lead,
they walk by your side (mostly) and stop when asked. They hold their feet
nicely for the farrier - which they've all seen now - and have had the
clippers run over them. They will stand cautiously on a brown tarp.

As for our adults, we're working them building muscle as well as dressage. I
have 2 that we are planning on taking to the Libby evaluations and even
though
they've only begun riding training here in the last few weeks, they have
already gained their w/t/c, collection and leads. We do muscle building
work
and then we do training, and yes, I do believe that those can be separated.
In training, they are learning something new every other day (in addition to
their former work) and when they get it correct, their lesson is done. Then
we
give them a day to think about it. We've had ZERO issues and so far, only
forward moving with 3 of our mares that we're training for this season.

For those who have said they don't want to send their horses out, I agree to
a
point. There are many fabulous Fjord trainers who will take care of your baby
just like you would - and give them some smarts to take home for you as well.

Take your time, be patient and love them. They will reward you greatly.

Corinne Logan
Willows Edge Farm, LLC
Boise, Idaho
208-629-1438 / 425-770-0243
www.willowsedgefarm.com
https://www.facebook.com/WillowsEdgeFarmIdaho

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Re: Belligerent rider

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I wasn't saying they aren't intelligent and can't figure things out.  It's
like not putting bad labels on kids and then treating them differently because
of that.  Of course kids are intelligent, but if they are crabby or lazy or
belligerent, it's not really their fault, because there is a reason even
they don't know that is causing it.  If you can figure out the reason, then
you can deal with the behavior more effectively, rather than just assumiing
it's out of some devious motivation on their part.
 
--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Belligerent rider
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:07 PM


This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them
credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something
they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct. People
think they are not smart because they don't speak our language. The real
problem is that we don't always understand theirs.  We really have no idea
what they do or don't think or feel. My husband who is a big, tough
analytical, unemotional surgeon always says it is people who are the morons
who think animals are not intelligent, don't have emotions, etc. I think it
is
clear that they love certain people or their animal friends, they grieve over
losses, they sometimes do things just for the fun of it. They remember
people,
places and other animals years later. One evening, I had put out hay for the
two fjords I had  at the time, and went to open the gate to let them in. The
mare sprinted forward in true fjord fashion hurrying to
get to the hay. The gelding  just stopped while I was closing the gate and I
thought to myself what is he doing, she is going to eat all the hay When I
walked up beside him, he fell in step with me and then I knew that what he
was
doing was waiting for me. I have a gelding now that is the smartest horse
I've
ever met because I think he understands what you say to him in a more complex
way than just one word commands or praise. One evening I was in the feed barn
behind the main barn getting the food buckets. Most horses I know are going
to
follow whoever has the food, not turn and go in the opposite direction if
they
are told to. I said to this horse with the buckets in my hand, go to your
stall and I'll bring your food. He turned immediately away from the
direction
I was going with the food and went to his stall and waited for me to come
around the other way and dump his food.  Now he's conditioned to do it when I
tell him, but the first time I
told him, I think he understood what I said. My other fjord is not smart in
that way. You can dump his food in the bucket and he'll come in the stall,
not
look in his bucket and come to the stall door and look at me and I have to go
over and show him his food is in the bucket. On the other hand, he is smart
enough to know to stay in the shade when it's hot, something the other two
horses often fail to do.
 
I think as humans we frequently underestimate
an animal's intelligence and ignore the fact that they have emotional lives.
I
think particularly horses can be really traumatized when they are sold and
sent to a different place. We expect them to be carted away and then get  to
some strange place where they know nobody and immediately settle in and do
what they are supposed to and what they have been trained to do. We don't
acknowledge or realize that they may be grieving for the loss of their
owner/handler and their horse friends. There was an article in the past year
in the USDF connection (Dec 2012/Jan 2013) about this that is well worth
reading because I think it can give some insight into how long it can take
for
a horse to settle in and bond to a new owner.  That article really hit home
with me because I had a similar experience when I got my latest fjord. He
seemed nothing like the horse I went to look at, so much so that I actually
wanted
to send him back. I have now said at least a hundred times that I am so glad
I didn't because he has turned out to be super.  He is friendly, engaging and
very steady and also the under saddle work is relatively easy for him. I
think
he was very bonded to the person who sold him to me and he was completely
upset and overwhelmed when he got here because it was totally different. It
took about 3 or 4 weeks for him to start to bond to me and actually quite a
bit longer than that before he would actually work willingly for me.  But,
once he decided that I was ok, he really demonstrated a better work ethic
than
my other fjord. Horses also know the difference between when they are sent to
a new owner and when they are just moved someplace else. Levi who had kind of
flipped out when he got here, didn't blink an eye when I moved him

Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


People who train wild animals with any method are idiotic, IMO.  No comparison
of a horse to a killer whale.  Yes CT let them train dangerous wild animals,
because it is so effective, but that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do.
 
--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 10:17 AM


This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


From Mary's iPad

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On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:53, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 You have to actually learn how to do CT,

Remember Sea World uses CT.  Highly skilled, knowledgeable professionals that
work with their subjects consistently on a daily basis  a performer was
killed by one of the killer whales.  There also had been some previous 
dangerous incidents. I don't know if it was the same whale each time.   Last
year, we went to SeaWorld again in Calif. with grandsons  the performers are
no longer in the water with the killer whales as they had been years ago!
Horses can be dangerous.  Even our cold blooded, laid back Fjords can react
with lightning speed.  Remember, of all domesticated animals, horses have the
fastest reaction time (this includes Fjords)...some of us have personally
experienced this.  Because of my over 30 years of having horses  being very
safety conscious, when NH came on the scene along with CT, I decided to use CA
method because he is safety first  educates you of all the ins  outs of
horsemanship  reading horse behavior,  all to keep me safer  to be a more
effective handler of my horses.  I never stop learning.

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Re: Fjord head on a shoulder?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I don't know for sure. I may have reinforced it when asking him to be still
and stand by my side.  If his head was above my shoulder at some point, he may
have thought that's what I was going for.  He always over-does everything he
learns.  He doesn't go back one step, he goes back 10, etc.  I just wondered
if that was a known horse or fjord behavior.  He is fine with being touched
all over the nose and lips. 
 
--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Linda Lottie horselo...@hotmail.com wrote:


From: Linda Lottie horselo...@hotmail.com
Subject: Fjord head on a shoulder?
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Cc: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 12:15 PM


This message is from: Linda Lottie horselo...@hotmail.com


Fjord head on your shoulder?  Did you ask him to put it there?  If so, your
choice.  Did he choose to put it there?  I personally would not allow that. 

My comfort level with my personal space is VERY critical with all of my
horses.  And, as I get older I find I'm even more aware of it. 

I just don't like any nonsense or verging on getting in my way.  With
fjords, appys, a mini and two mini donkeys all know my rules.  They adore me
(I feed them...LOL) and I spend lots of time hanging out with them in their
turnouts w/o halters.  I give good scratches and smooches but I do NOT like
being clunked in the head or body by any of them!!!  And, they know it!!!

Guests are also encouraged to pet my horses on the neckbut of course they
want to touch the face.  Touch my fjord mares mouth?  Might see teeth!  LOL.
She gets no treats by mouth as she becomes pushy and snotty when there are
none.  Live and learn:)))

JMHO

Linda in steamy NW WI



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:56 AM, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 :)  When I said horses were much smarter than I ever knew, maybe it's
because
 I started with a fjord and a mule.
 
 Yes I'm sure all trainers aren't bad.  But there are just so many horror
 stories, it seems like a big risk.
 
 When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your shoulder,
is
 that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate?  Mine does that a lot. 
A
 fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't
 escalate beyond that.  He has tried to control me in the past, but he has
 gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little
residual
 bit of that, or just trying to be friendly.

 --- On Mon, 6/24/13, Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC
willowsedgef...@msn.com
 wrote:


 From: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC willowsedgef...@msn.com
 Subject: RE: Personalities  Intelligence
 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
 Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 9:18 AM


 This message is from: Logans - Willows Edge Farm LLC
 willowsedgef...@msn.com


 In my years of working with the Fjords, I've found them to be ridiculously
 smart. Each horse has it's own personality which changes how they will
learn,
 but have not found a dumb one yet. :)

 In our training program, we start babies at Day 1! They are handled and
 handled and handled. We have 4 foals this year (including a tall, white
stud
 colt if anyone's interested...) that are now between 3-7 weeks. They lead,
 they walk by your side (mostly) and stop when asked. They hold their feet
 nicely for the farrier - which they've all seen now - and have had the
 clippers run over them. They will stand cautiously on a brown tarp.

 As for our adults, we're working them building muscle as well as dressage.
I
 have 2 that we are planning on taking to the Libby evaluations and even
 though
 they've only begun riding training here in the last few weeks, they have
 already gained their w/t/c, collection and leads. We do muscle building
 work
 and then we do training, and yes, I do believe that those can be
separated.
 In training, they are learning something new every other day (in addition
to
 their former work) and when they get it correct, their lesson is done. Then
 we
 give them a day to think about it. We've had ZERO issues and so far, only
 forward moving with 3 of our mares that we're training for this season.

 For those who have said they don't want to send their horses out, I agree
to
 a
 point. There are many fabulous Fjord trainers who will take care of your
baby
 just like you would - and give them some smarts to take home for you as
well.

 Take your time, be patient and love them. They will reward you greatly.

 Corinne Logan
 Willows Edge Farm, LLC
 Boise, Idaho
 208-629-1438 / 425-770-0243
 www.willowsedgefarm.com
 https://www.facebook.com/WillowsEdgeFarmIdaho

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Re: head on Shoulder

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


:)   That brings tears to my eyes.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Frederick Pack friendlyfred2...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Frederick Pack friendlyfred2...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: head on Shoulder
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 3:51 PM


This message is from: Frederick Pack friendlyfred2...@gmail.com


I have had many times, since I lost my wife, where I stopped in the middle
of a pasturedaydreaming and reminiscing (and feeling blue)...when from
behind, one of my gals would come up quietly...give me a kiss and lay their
great heads on my shoulder.ever so gently.

What a great comfort.unconditional love given from earned trust.

Fred


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Ellen Barry ethba...@yahoo.ie wrote:

 This message is from: Ellen Barry ethba...@yahoo.ie


 My gelding Sam (Bushwhacker's Mister Tea) will rest his head on my
 shoulder very frequently. I will caress his jaws when he does that and he
 will fall asleep with his head resting on my shoulder.
 He will also lay his head in my arms for me to cradle his head and will
 fall asleep like that too.
 I think it's just a gesture of affection and trust, not of dominance.
 I once had a dressage trainer present when he did that and she started
 having tears in her eyes. I asked her what's wrong and she said to me that
 Sam moved her to the core with his obvious love for me.
 Ellen.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Jun 24, 2013, at 1:20 PM,
owner-fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com(fjordhorse-digest) wrote:

  When a horse puts his head on top of you, like rests it on your
 shoulder, is
  that a friendly gesture or an attempt to dominate?  Mine does that a
 lot.  A
  fjord head on your shoulder is kind of noticable, but it doesn't
  escalate beyond that.  He has tried to control me in the past, but he
 has
  gotten 99% better with that, but I didn't know if that was a little
 residual
  bit of that, or just trying to be friendly.

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--
Fred Pack
Packs Peak Stables
Wilkeson, WA

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Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Yes I'm sure you do.  It's hard though, for a person new to horses.  A person
could easily mess it up, I think.

--- On Mon, 6/24/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: NH and CT?? Mouthy?
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 8:53 AM


This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


From Mary's iPad

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On Jun 24, 2013, at 4:24, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 You have to actually learn how to do CT,

You know what, this is true for NH training also. Unless you actually make an
investment of money, time,  effort, to learn the ins  outs of let's say CA'
s methods, you will never understand it, the theory behind it  what it can
accomplish with a horse.
I have  the materials,  understand what is involved in clicker training.  One
person in her materials shows how she trained a miniature horse to be a seeing
eye horse for the blind, very impressive.  I Also have Shawna K.'s book 
have read it.   But I have decided to use the Method in training my horses
after studying all of these materials.
I use a small amount of CT incorporated with the Method.  Because like Lori,
I  use it to speed up a horses learning.

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Re: [Bulk] Re: head on Shoulder

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I'm so glad it doesn't mean something negative.
 
--- On Mon, 6/24/13, ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net wrote:


From: ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: head on Shoulder
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 24, 2013, 3:40 PM


This message is from: ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net


 I once had a dressage trainer present when he did that and she started
having tears in her eyes. I asked her what's wrong and she said to me that Sam
moved her to the core with his obvious love for me.
 Ellen.


THANKS for sharing that story, Ellen. Sure made me feel good to think of what
a wonderful home he has with you.

Ruthie, nw mt US
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Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


After the bad things I've heard about horses being sent places, I am never
going to do that.

I've had mine since last fall, and our relationship is still changing.  They
are not like dogs, who can love you completely in about 5 seconds.  It takes
them a while.

I don't like NH for the reasons you describe.  I don't want them to feel like
I am the predator.  That's why I do CT.  I think it takes longer with horses
(longer than NH, I mean), but maybe that's because I'm learning as I go.  But
it's worth it.

--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Disposition/intelligence
To: Fjord List fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:35 PM

This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


Horses are horses, a prey animal.  We are the predators.  To communicate with
them horse whisperers have learned to be effective leaders by communicating to
horses in herd language. Because there is so much information out there now
to help us to understand  work with horses effectively, horse whisperers
aren't so much of a mystery any more.  Yes I agree that horses are very
intelligent, some more, some less.   Because of information provided by Such
people as Clinton Anderson  others, people are realizing how smart horses
are.  But they have to be smart because they are prey animals.  Horses have
preferences, but I don't know how to interpret  don't do so on human terms. 
I had a thoroughbred, spirited, that I sent off for training.  He was kept in
a stall.  He became depressed  even coliced.  The times I visited him, he
would be at the back of his stall, depressed, sulking.  When I finally took
him home, I put a halter on him  led
 him to where my trailer was parked.!
   The minute he saw the trailer he started dancing  surged into the trailer.
The ride home was 3 hrs instead of 1 1/4 hrs due to bad traffic.  He traveled
beautifully quiet.  When we got home  I turned him out on 15 acres, he reared
up, hopped 4 hops like the Lipizzaner stallions do.  He was jubilant/happy to
be home.  He had never done that before.  Another incidentI had a quarter
horse type Appy that a trainer borrowed for a while to use as a lesson horse.
When I finally brought the horse home, he wouldn't speak to me for 2 weeks. 
Can't explain it, but it was his body language.  I decided to not loan him out
again after that.  my horses are turned out on 15 acres all day, kept in a
stall with an attached pen at night, they are not happy when living in a stall
24/7. I had a German highly certified trainer, for whom I have a great deal of
respect, tell me that it takes 2 years for a horse to settle in to a new home

From Mary's iPad

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Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


--- On Sun, 6/23/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 6:27 PM

This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


From Mary's iPad

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On Jun 23, 2013, at 15:46, Kimberley Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com wrote:

 NH training should present you as a herd leader to your horse and earn his
respect and trust.

The whole point behind NH training is for you to learn  understand how NOT to
be a predator but a herd leader. 

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Re: Animal Smarts.................

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Yes.  And with a Carlos Castenada quote.  :)  Something he got from a dream,
I'm sure.  Lucid dreaming and clicker training have been the most fun and
interesting things I have ever learned.  I was trying to think of a way to
combine the two, clicker train myself to lucid dream more, but haven't got it
figured out yet.

--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:

From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: Animal Smarts.
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:44 PM

This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


I agree with Robin's statement and the type of thinking - the animals are
not 'intelligent' almost had me walking out of my job several years ago.
One of my fellow co-workers - an attorney that graduated from Exeter, no
less, said something in passing about the stupid ducks.  I said, ducks
aren't stupid, they are only being ducks - that's all they know how to do.
You can't judge intelligent from only the human's view.   This escalated
into a - you're-an- idiot-and-I'm not, argument and I threatened to walk
away from trying to reason with him. We could not agree on any common ground
for either argument.  The outcome, and I've run across this type of thinking
before, is that there are some folks who believe animals have lower
intelligence than humans, and some that believe that they have an equal or
higher intelligence.  Yes, we have the technology, but great apes don't have
to communicate by using their thumbs! (Sorry. I had to put this in!)   Geese
are able to fly south without having to use a giant fuel-burning aircraft.
Horses communicate with subtle body languages that most humans don't pick
up.  Each animal on the planet is not stupid by reason of what they are, and
we, as humans, should not place judgment upon them.

Here is quote from Carlos Castenada    Self-importance is another thing
that must be dropped, just like personal history. As long as you feel that
you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate
the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders; all you see is
yourself apart from everything else.   It doesn't matter what you say to a
plant. You can just as well make up words; what's important is the feeling
of liking it, and treating it as an equal.   So, all in all, the plants and
ourselves are even. Neither we nor they are more or less important.

To me, this says it all.   I'm open for criticism

Mary Ofjord
North Coast Services, LLC
218-387-1879


This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them
credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something
they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct

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Re: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Horses know people aren't horses, and I don't think you would want your horse
to treat you like another horse.  Respect is another word that has no
meaning when applied to animals.  The behavior is either trained, or it
isn't. 

Herd leaders do not make other horses do the things that people make them
do.  All that stuff about being herd leader is mythology that has nothing
to do with what is actually going on.  It works, there is  a reason it works
(horses are easy to threaten), and then there is they stuff people make up
about why it works.   All that left-brain, right-brain stuff, dominance,
respect etc.; it's all pseudo-scientific gobbledy-gook.  Ppeople can't
separate what empirically works from the mythology made up about why it
works.  Just like other mythologies.

--- On Sun, 6/23/13, Kimberley Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Kimberley Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Disposition/intelligence
To: fjordhorse angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 5:46 PM

This message is from: Kimberley Manzoni kim.manz...@yahoo.com


I don't think NH training presents you as a predator to a prey animal. If it
does, you are not understanding it. NH training should present you as a herd
leader to your horse and earn his respect and trust. IMHO.

-kim

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: Disposition/intelligence
From: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
CC:

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


After the bad things I've heard about horses being sent places, I am never
going to do that.

I've had mine since last fall, and our relationship is still changing.�
They
are not like dogs, who can love you completely in about 5 seconds.� It
takes
them a while.

I don't like NH for the reasons you describe.� I don't want them to feel
like
I am the predator.� That's why I do CT.� I think it takes longer with
horses
(longer than NH, I mean), but maybe that's because I'm learning as I go.�
But
it's worth it.

--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Disposition/intelligence
To: Fjord List fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 6:35 PM

This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


Horses are horses, a prey animal.� We are the predators.� To communicate
with
them horse whisperers have learned to be effective leaders by communicating
to
horses in herd language. Because there is so much information out there now
to help us to understand  work with horses effectively, horse whisperers
aren't so much of a mystery any more.� Yes I agree that horses are very
intelligent, some more, some less.���Because of information provided by
Such
people as Clinton Anderson  others, people are realizing how smart horses
are.� But they have to be smart because they are prey animals.� Horses
have
preferences, but I don't know how to interpret  don't do so on human
terms.�
I had a thoroughbred, spirited, that I sent off for training.� He was kept
in
a stall.� He became depressed  even coliced.� The times I visited him,
he
would be at the back of his stall, depressed, sulking.� When I finally took
him home, I put a halter on him  led
 him to where my trailer was parked.!
���The minute he saw the trailer he started dancing  surged into the
trailer.
The ride home was 3 hrs instead of 1 1/4 hrs due to bad traffic.� He
traveled
beautifully quiet.� When we got home  I turned him out on 15 acres, he
reared
up, hopped 4 hops like the Lipizzaner stallions do.� He was jubilant/happy
to
be home.� He had never done that before.� Another incidentI had a
quarter
horse type Appy that a trainer borrowed for a while to use as a lesson horse.
When I finally brought the horse home, he wouldn't speak to me for 2
weeks.�
Can't explain it, but it was his body language.� I decided to not loan him
out
again after that.� my horses are turned out on 15 acres all day, kept in a
stall with an attached pen at night, they are not happy when living in a
stall
24/7. I had a German highly certified trainer, for whom I have a great deal
of
respect, tell me that it takes 2 years for a horse to settle in to a new home

From Mary's iPad

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Re: mules more............

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I think they are bright.  :)  I've been so amazed at how smart they are. 
Before I was around them very much, I figured they weren't very smart.

--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: mules  more
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 2:26 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


 I personally believe any horse will bolt given the right set of
circumstances...I think it is discouraging,
particularly to people who are new to fjords to be told everything the
horse
does is their fault. ...fjords are horses and they do all the same things
other horses do and require the same if
not more effort, and skill to train. People tend to think they are easier
and
maybe some of them are, but I think sometimes they require more finesse to
train than other breeds because in my opinion, they tend to be pretty
smart
and more invested in their relationship with the handler.

I totally agree with Robin's post.

Before I got my Fjord, I was into Andalusians.  Boy, nowhere does more
mythology abound than in that breed!  Andalusians are so gentle that they
can all be left stallions.  They're so intelligent.  So noble.  So kind.
So willing.  They are born balanced on their hindquarters and can do high
school work right from the start...  It just goes on and on.

Trust me, it isn't true.

A horse is a horse.  They are complicated, big, prone to panic, not too
bright (by human measurements) . . . and, of course, wonderful, adorable,
irresistible, mesmerizing, addictive, beautiful . . . (words fail me).

They all have good points and bad, good days and bad.  But they all
require the human to be educated, thinking, and careful.

Cindy

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Cool, thanks!  I'll check it out.  Maybe she can help with Odi too, he has a
strangely shaped head also.  He is definitely big around the cheeks but small
in the nose. Bam-Bam is kind of big all over, but especially cheeks.

--- On Fri, 6/21/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 6:13 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


Ro asked:

Where are you getting yours? (custom made headgear)

Here:  http://www.halfcircleranch.com/store/pc/home.asp

If you call, the nice lady who makes the stuff (Jessica) will talk you
through everything.  Tell her I recommended her.  We've laughed about the
strange proportions of Oden's head!

I had already ordered a regular horse-sized halter with a draft-sized
throatlatch from her. The draft-sized throatlatch fit fine, but the rest
of the halter is too big!

But her prices are cheap, so I don't mind another try.  I just ordered the
Indian hackamore halter (
http://www.halfcircleranch.com/store/pc/Indian-Hackamore-Halter-71p157.htm
).  We took very careful measurements to get everything right, and I know
it's still a bit iffy.

I can tell you the rope she uses is soft and nice.

Cindy

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Re: Belligerent rider

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


If you are responding to me saying that animals can't be stubborn, that
doesn't mean that they don't have personalities, or they can't figure things
out, or are not intelligent.  It just means that they don't choose to do
wrong.  They don't choose to do right either.  They simply do what they know,
either due to instinct or training.  It doesn't make sense to say an animal is
stubborn, or lazy, or any other attribute like that, because that implies the
knowledge that they know what they are right from wrong.  They don't know
that, because they don't have the concept of right and wrong from a human
perspective.  What they do is what they know.  If they don't do something,
then they don't know to do it.  Anything that an animal does that is wrong
is a training issue, not that the animal has chosen to do wrong.  It's
either the fault of the trainer, or the animal is simply not capable of being
trained to do that particular thing.  It's never a
 conscious choice on the part of the animal; it never knows what is right,
but then chooses to do what is wrong.  That's why I say it doesn't make
sense to say that animals are stubborn, lazy, etc. all the adjectives used to
describe people who may know what is right but then choose to do wrong.

--- On Fri, 6/21/13, Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com wrote:

From: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com
Subject: Belligerent rider
To: Fjord Digest Reply fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 5:56 PM

This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com


So lets see: one writer says animals have no personality but humans do.

Are we not in fact animals?

Isn't personality regardless of species simply the labels/attributions we
apply to behaviors and emotional process?

Tekla stands up alone on the hill. Is she depressed? Is she happy to be away
from that pesky Ike? Is she sulking because Baby got to go to the clinic?

If Telka often stands alone on the hill do we label her standoffish? stubborn?
free spirited? belligerent?  Seems we make a best guess using observed data
and try to work with that personality.

My Morgan could hear when the fencer was off and would strum the wire with her
lip. We could attribute that pretty fairly to intelligence. She was an alpha
mare. She was smart and playful. No she could not plot revenge on me when I
sold her son. But she could connect no clicking with wire and beyond that to
heaven (grass).

No doubt in my mind at first Nickie tried every trick in the book to try
(short term plan) to unsettle us (run down hill, wipe your through pine
boughs, dump in puddle, over jump tiny stick, fake trip, fake drunk (weave out
driveway), lay down (sooo embarrassing in halter class) etc. Most fascinating
is each trick was played only once! He is coming along great and later we
bought his Mom who is clearly the tree from which he fell!

Must say we got Nick from nice people who treated him like a spoiled puppy
which leads me to the blame the trainer thread:
First of all of course good training matters. But we do not (I hope) blame the
parent of autistic child for the kid's bad social skills. Why wouldn't horses
or lines of horses have these same genetic differences and deficits?

I wonder how animals perceive the personality of humans? Somehow they might
differentiate the nice one from the mean one.  The pushover from the assertive
leader. What do they make of Tekla's behavior? I find personality very
interesting concept. I must be inquisitive:)

Tonja Acker-Richards
Pond House Farm

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Re: mules more............

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Yea it's funny someitmes, some animals seem so smart about some things, but so
dumb about others that really seem obvious.

--- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: mules  more
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:12 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


Cindy said:

A horse is a horse.  They are complicated, big, prone to panic, not too
bright (by human measurements) . . . 

Ro said:

I think they are bright.  :)  I've been so amazed at how smart they
are.
Before I was around them very much, I figured they weren't very smart.

But wait!  I qualified my not-bright comment with by human measurements.


For example, a horse might feel entrapped, and see a partially-open gate,
not nearly big enough for a horse to go through; but he might think,
somehow, that if he runs fast enough, he can squeeze through it.  That's
the kind of not bright I'm talking about.  I know in horsey ways, they
are far smarter than we are.

The problem is that they are obliged to live in human environments --
which takes us back to the original discussion.  It is up to the human to
keep things safe and sensible for the horse because the horse is not
bright in human things.

Cindy

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


thanks!

--- On Fri, 6/21/13, Lori Albrough l...@bluebirdlane.com wrote:


From: Lori Albrough l...@bluebirdlane.com
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 6:57 AM


This message is from: Lori Albrough l...@bluebirdlane.com


On 6/20/13 9:59 PM, Rovena Kessinger wrote:
 This message is from: Rovena Kessingerro_k...@yahoo.com
 
 
 Where are you getting yours?

You can order made-to-measure bridles from Brubacher's Harness 
http://brubachersharness.ca/

They have a form you fill out with all the measurements, colours, options, etc. 
I have had them make both snaffle and double bridles for riding, and they also 
specialize in driving equipment. Prices are very reasonable and quality is 
great.

I recommend calling and speaking to Henry Junior or Noah, I don't think they 
have a way to do this on the website.

Toll-Free: 1-866-669-2064
Local: 519-669-2064

Lori

-- Lori Albrough
Bluebird Lane Fjords
R.R.#3 Moorefield Ont Canada N0G 2K0
phone: 519-638-5598
email: l...@bluebirdlane.com
http://www.bluebirdlane.com

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Re: mules more............

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I'm pretty sure it's handling too.  Bam-Bam was so head-shy and nervous and
ready to run when when I first got him, but now he acts like a puppy when it's
just me and him.  I just need to get him better with everything else.  It's
not things he is scared of, but people.  Today I had an umbrella, and they
were both scared at first, but it only took a few minutes before Bam-Bam was
ignoring me opening over his head and all around.  Odi the mule wouldn't get
close to it when I was opening it up.
 
I think mules are mistreated a lot because they are so stoic. 

--- On Fri, 6/21/13, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:


From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: mules  more
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 11:48 AM


This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


I have not heard of Fjords with the issues that have come up with this
current thread, but apparently they are out there.
Such as; not liking to have their feet handled; kicking when cornered (any
horse would do that); unfriendly Fjords, bolting and spooking...

I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been
around.

If I didn't know better and had just read these past few posts, I surely
would not want a Fjord. These are not horse issues; they are more than
likely caused by people's improper handling of the horses.

And in praise of mules; nowadays, the mule people are breeding some
outstanding mules - beautiful animals, and when treated and started with
kindness and respect, they turn out just fine.  I'm not saying you have to
be wishy-washy around them, but some of the comments about bad mules also
come from improper handling of the animals - the 'Old Mule Skinner' ways.
The comment below from Rovena's trimmer about the mules aiming to kill just
exacerbates the reputation of these fine animals. So sad.

Mary Ofjord
North Coast Services, LLC
218-387-1879



You mean about how mules kick?


This message is from: Theresa Christiansen t...@littlerockfarm.com


Wow!  I own both mules and fjords and have for years.  I couldn't disagree
more with your farrier.


 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My
 trimmer was very, very cautious.  She siad mules kick to kill, and
 they can aim.  They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is
 actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule.  The mule
 always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he
 is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk
 to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people
 he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash
 somebody.

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RE: mules more............

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


It's very hard not to reward the behavior you don't want sometimes.

--- On Fri, 6/21/13, Teressa tere...@kodiakfishco.com wrote:


From: Teressa tere...@kodiakfishco.com
Subject: RE: mules  more
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 2:52 PM


This message is from: Teressa tere...@kodiakfishco.com


Along the lines of Robin's comments, I have a gelding who used to be a
bolter. He was a big boy and if he wanted to take control, he would. I am a
relative novice horse owner so I don't have years of experience with lots of
different horses. But I noticed when a friend was riding him and he would
bolt, that he was brought back to the trot and then the walk. Fjords are
smart and most like to work but they also like to mess with us humans. I
suggested that when she felt the bolt, to turn him, still in the canter,
into a 10 meter circle which like a one rein stop slows his pace and then
continue with whatever cantering exercise was being done. Once he figured
out that the bolt wouldn't get him out of work, he quit doing it. I also
think it was his method of getting attention - if he's cantering with
someone on his back, he doesn't get petted.

That's my gelding - none of my fjords are exactly the same in their
disposition - just like none of my schnauzers are. Generally, though, the
fjords are affectionate, smart and can figure us out quicker than we figure
them out. Often, my reaction to misbehaviors must have seemed like a reward
to them. Still happens now.

Teressa

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Re: Spook etc

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I do but I don't think I know enough about horses in general to know how
fjords are different than others, or how much more fjords are like mules than
other horses.  But I've had other people tell me that they are alike too.  To
me, they seem pretty different.  The mule is a minimalist, the fjord over does
everything.  For example, in teaching to move FQ over, the mule will just tap
with his foot near me on the other side and call it good.  The fjord over does
it to the point where he spins in a complete circle.  It's a struggle to teach
the mule to back.  Even after he does it well in training sessions, he won't
do it during other times.  The fjord will keep backing way past where he
needed to.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Spook etc
To: Fjord List fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 10:13 AM


This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their
behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would someone
explain?  I have observed that my few fjords are different from the variety of
horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I have to work
more with the fjord mind.  Anybody have mules  fjords?  What similarities do
you observe?

From Mary's iPad

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Re: Mules Fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now.  With my two, it's the
fjord who constantly demonstrates what he knows and is much easier to teach
than the mule.  I taught him to smile on command, and he won't quit doing it
now, and a guy walked up to us and Bam-Bam scared the heck out of him by
putting a big smile right in his face, the guy thought he was attacking.
 
But Odi the mule has started lifting his foot offering foot-lifts, like when I
was putting some fly-spray on him.  I was near his foot, so I guess he thought
he should lift it.  But other things are so difficult with him.  He still will
hardly back up for me, except under training circumstances.  It's like he
figure he doesn't have to do it unless we're specifically working on that. 
But Bam-Bam backs up really well all the time now.  I wouldn't say he is light
and easy to move, but he has gotten much better than he used to be.
 
My hoof-trimmer said Bam-Bam acted more like an arabian than a fjord, because
he is so hyper-alert and vigilant and reactive.  But I think that is because
of his background and he doesn't like people, especially ones who do things
to him.  She said the mule was way overly hyper-alert too.  But maybe that's
how mules are, I don't know.  They only act like that when weird things are
going on, but she said a lot of horses are not like that, some are much calmer
no matter what is going on around them.
 
Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types
have in common, I don't know.
 
.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:


From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: Mules  Fjords
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 11:18 AM


This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


I have a mule and Fjords.  Mules will do anything for you, but you need to
gain their trust first.  They will definitely learn to do something if it's
in THEIR best interest! For example, I clicker trained our mule to place his
foot and keep it  on the farrier's hoof stand.  It took about two tries and
he had it!  When the farrier went around to trim his back feet, he raised
his front foot in the air!  Now, anytime the farrier goes into the mule's
stall to trim, he will automatically raise his front foot! Be careful what
you train your mules!

I find that mules and Fjords are not as easy as other horses to move around
using body language. They are a bit more cold blooded in behavior. I find
myself having to shout at the Fjords when I ask them to do something at
liberty on or the longe line.  Actually, my mule is easier to move than the
Fjords in that respect, however, when they get it and are paying attention,
they can be quite light to move.  When I work with other types of horses, I
have to remember to keep my body language softer and quieter than when I
work with the Fjords.  The Fjords are very stoic and self-minded.  They look
out for themselves and that's what some might refer to being stubborn, as it
is with mules.  That being said, once my mule figures out what I am asking,
he will generally go along with my request, but he may have to stop and
think about it first, and I have experienced that with some Fjords too.

Mary Ofjord
North Coast Services, LLC
218-387-1879



This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their
behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would
someone explain?  I have observed that my few fjords are different from the
variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I
have to work more with the fjord mind.  Anybody have mules  fjords?  What
similarities do you observe?

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RE: Mules Fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I had to get a hoof-trimmer who specializes in hard-to-trim equines to drive
two hours to do them. The first guy, he tried to do Odi, who wouldn't let him
touch his back feet, and Bam-Bam was watching, and when the guy approached
Bam-Bam, he jjust went wild, rearing and trying to get away.  This trimmer is
very calm and gentle and takes her time, like, hours.  Odi is fine with her
now, but Bam-Bam still gets nervous.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:


From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: RE: Mules  Fjords
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:07 PM


This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


This is a good point.  I have noticed the difference in how my equines act
depending on the energy of the farriers.  The farrier we have right now is
so calm around my horses that he has never even raised his voice - not once!
I no longer hear Quit or Stop it that I heard when I had farriers that
took a much longer time to trim my horses.  I guess I don't blame them for
getting fidgety after have to stand in one spot for about an hour.  Our
current farrier knows how to hold the horse's feet in a way that is
comfortable for them, and he is efficient at his trade.  I also believe that
our animals pick up on our body signals, without us even being aware of it.
Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically.  Our
critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those
stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules.

Mary Ofjord
North Coast Services, LLC
218-387-1879



This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now.  Maybe the
difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in
common, I don't know.

.

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Spook etc

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I think that's why mine ended up in a rescue before I got him.  He does not
respond well to any kind of pressure.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net wrote:


From: ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: Spook etc
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:28 PM


This message is from: ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net


 A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their
 behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would
someone
 explain?   From Mary's iPad


I don't have much experience with mule's, but it seems to me that throughout
the years it was said many times that both the mule and the Fjord resist
pressure the same.

Someone mentioned trust, that cannot be emphasized enough.. take time to
establish
a relationship with your Fjord, before trying to move their furniture around.
ha

Ruthie, nw mt US
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Re: Spook etc

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young fjord by
itself with a bunch of kids.  That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen,
which I guess it was.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu wrote:


From: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
Subject: Re: Spook etc
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM


This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu


my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord.   Self preservation, a
certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food.  both
are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than
the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages.

I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed the
most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after
three months.  Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I found
out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows
and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very
mulelike.  Of note, this was his only horse on the place.   The mule is
herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether
coyote, dog or moose.  He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly,
but she is calming down.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


 A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their
 behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would
 someone explain?  I have observed that my few fjords are different from the
 variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I
 have to work more with the fjord mind.  Anybody have mules  fjords?  What
 similarities do you observe?

 From Mary's iPad

 PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING  OR FORWARDING THIS
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Re: Crafty

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Animals act by instinct and training.  They are not stubborn, belligerent, or
any other negative personality trait.  If they don't do what they are supposed
to do, their training is lacking.  It's as simple as that. Animals are not
like people; they don't make complicated decisions and have ulterior motives
and all those other things people do.  I am not saying they are not smart and
cannot figure things out, but these adjectives that imply particular
personality traits in people is not accurate of what is really going on. 

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com wrote:


From: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com
Subject: Crafty
To: Fjord Digest Reply fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 10:13 AM


This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com


I love the word crafty used by another poster to describe some like minded
fjords. Perfect. Like a valued resource. Way better the my use of the word
belligerence.

One time I described my horses to a Nordic buddy and she said simply: Well
they are Norwegian.
I am too and German. Great combo for a Fjorder. (Yes I make up words too)

Tonja Acker-Richards
Pond House Farm

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Re: Mules Fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I have been doing all positive reinforcement with him and he has really
changed a lot since I got him.  He and the mule coming running from the field
when I call them and are always happy to be with me and love their training. 
My hoof-trimmer tried to do some very gentle NH with him and he ran away from
her the next time she came.  He doesn't like to be pressured to do things, but
learns very well if he is rewarded.
 
It's funny you say they are like your chow, because I always think Bam-Bam is
like my dog, who is a german shepherd/boxer mix and cannot be handled roughly
because he has the potential to be dangerous (actually, he is dangerous, but
not to me), and what you say is what both of them is true, they need to be
handled gently or it won't work, but they would walk all over me if I let
them.
 
--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Mules  Fjords
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:53 PM


This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com


I have owned 5 different fjords and they were all different. In general,
I find them to be more stoic than other horses, and I think developing a
trusting relationship with the handler is more important with them. They will
do a lot more for you if you are their person and they respect you. The
ones
I have had would not have done well with rough handling. Calm, consistent
handling with positive reinforcement but with very definite expectations
is what works best with them. In this way they remind me of my chows. Chows
don't respond to rough handling but they must have discipline or they will
walk all over you. I agree with Mary that the best way to correct them is
through work, if they are naughty they get to work harder not in an angry
way,
just in a matter of fact way and if they are good they may get to quit
early. 
The other important thing is if you need to take it slow in training them, do
so but always set things up for a positive result
and so that you win (in other words, get the outcome you were looking for)
Some people among us are more skilled with horses than others but that
doesn't
mean that someone who is inexperienced or not as brave cannot be successful,
it just may take longer.
 
Robin in SW Florida where it is really hot and
miserable and Magnus and Levi are planning on calling the SPCA if I don't let
them on vacation until at least October

 







Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and
physically.  Our
critters can do the same - each is a little different, still
those
stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules.

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Re: Spook etc

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My trimmer was
very, very cautious.  She siad mules kick to kill, and they can aim.  They
think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is actually a lot more likely to
hurt somebody than the mule.  The mule always knows where his feet are, never
tries to kick anybody, and he is very friendly to people, and loves for people
to pet him and talk to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is
scared by people he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to
squash somebody.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu wrote:


From: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
Subject: Re: Spook etc
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 2:12 PM


This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu


The comment about the filly being bored is probably very true.  They will
find ways to amuse themselves.  There is a lot to be said for maturity.  I
sold two other fjords this spring, both of which were four and five years
old, barely started under saddle.  I get a call at least once a week from
the owner, absolutely thrilled to death with them and their progress.  She
has taken them slowly and now is able to ride both of them out in the
woods, on roads and her 10 year old daughter will be riding one in the 4th
of July parade.   I was reluctant to sell the younger filly - a two year
old - and am glad to have her back.   I tried to have him take one of the
older horses but he wanted one he could start his way.  IAll the
youngsters have similar breeding and the same start.
Re mules and watching other horses.  I had a farrier that my horses loved
and respected.  The mule insisted on going first or her feelings were hurt.
He was trained by the Amish who told him that with the mule, the first
time you do it, let him watch the other horses, process the fact that they
were ok and then they will be fine.  I have problems finding farriers who
are not afraid of the mule- she is a catalonian/thoroughbred and stands
about 17 hands tall. After the first session, where he did her last, she
was his buddy forever.



On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.comwrote:

 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young fjord
 by
 itself with a bunch of kids.  That sounds like a disaster waiting to
 happen,
 which I guess it was.

 --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu wrote:


 From: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
 Subject: Re: Spook etc
 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
 Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM


 This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu


 my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord.   Self preservation, a
 certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food.  both
 are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than
 the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages.

 I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed the
 most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after
 three months.  Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I found
 out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows
 and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very
 mulelike.  Of note, this was his only horse on the place.   The mule is
 herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether
 coyote, dog or moose.  He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly,
 but she is calming down.


 On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

  This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
 
 
  A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in
 their
  behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would
  someone explain?  I have observed that my few fjords are different from
 the
  variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems
 that I
  have to work more with the fjord mind.  Anybody have mules  fjords?
 What
  similarities do you observe?
 
  From Mary's iPad
 
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Re: Mules Fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Interesting.  That's kind of what I figured out.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Cynthia Madden cynthia.mad...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Cynthia Madden cynthia.mad...@gmail.com
Subject: Mules  Fjords
To: FH-L fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 3:27 PM


This message is from: Cynthia Madden cynthia.mad...@gmail.com


When I think of mules  Fjords,I think SMART! I have requently suggested to
people in this area of the country to find a mule trainer if there is no
Fjord trainer. Avoid at all costs quarter horse trainers, etc. They do not
understand a SMART horse (or mule). Both animals are willing and easy to
work with (generally)  if you treat them with respect and don't try to push
them around. It doesn't work. They need to understand what you want and
have time to absorb it. .

--
Cynthia Madden
Las Cruces, NM

cynt...@carriagehorse.com

No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses.  ~Herman
Melville, Redburn. His First Voyage, 1849

Sometimes you are the pigeon. Sometimes you are the statue. - Anon.

          *() ()*

*    ~/ ( o o)*

*  ~/        \\*

*~/           (,,)*

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Re: Crafty

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I think different animals have different temperaments too, and can figure
things out, and I think they are a lot smarter than most people realize.  But
at the same time, I don't think certain words that describe peoples' bad
qualities should be used to describe them.  Stubborn, belligerent, etc.
are due to a failure of training.  Some animals might be harder to train than
others, but that is always the answer.  You can't know for sure why they
aren't doing something.  Blaming the animal is blaming the wrong one; anything
that happens between a domestic animal and a human is always the human's
responsibility.


--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Melinda melinda.schumac...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Melinda melinda.schumac...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Crafty
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 6:49 PM

This message is from: Melinda melinda.schumac...@gmail.com


My dog, when my kids were young and we used to get carry-out French fries and
burgers weekly, on one occasion went to the dining room window and barked out
at the driveway.  We lived deep in the woods so we all trotted over to see
who/what was approaching the house - nothing.  My dog then hopped up to the
table and snuck some French fries while our backs were momentarily turned. 
Clearly that was a successful plot!

I think animals have varying temperaments that make them more or less gentle
or aggressive, congenial or belligerent, without implying premeditation or
higher powers of mentation.  I also think humans are reactive and act from
instinct and training, more so the younger and more immature or
psychologically unhealthy we are.

Soon after I got her, my fjord mare went to a trainer who, unbeknownst to me,
was somewhat harsh.  She absolutely loved Mirakel, but ever since that time
Mirakel has been highly afraid of whips, so I strongly suspect the woman hit
her (which I wouldn't condone).  I regret I didn't know more to prevent that
scenario unfolding, but that's how we learn.

Melinda
With Mirakel and Norrman
In sunny warm Ohio!



Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

 This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


 I would agree.   Animals are honestthey act according to their feelings
in the moment, not by plotting. 

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Re: bridles for fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I get the warmblood size for rope halters, and those fit him.  I'll check out
Dover, thanks.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net wrote:

From: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net
Subject: bridles for fjords
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 8:28 PM

This message is from: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net


I found that Dover had pieces one could buy.  And one can get a browband
with
“bling” if they like, fancy it up some.   I had luck with the
warmblood
size, was able to use it for two of them.  One used the horse size.  These
were english dresage bridles.    I know that there are some negative things
said or thought about the tighter fitting noseband.  I think some use it to
prevent ones horse from either tongue hanging out or chopping to much on the
bit.  I purchased one as it was so nicely padded, even at the chin.  One
does
not have to have it tight, a finger or two I think.  And make sure it’s a
finger or two below the cheek bone.  I do think its good for youngsters to
chew on the bit, play with it in their mouths, but you don’t want it
hanging
too low either.

Well, just wanted to mention Dover.  They are good about taking back the
items
if you don’t like them or they don’t fit.  Or have been to me.

Debby

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Where are you getting yours?


--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 5:48 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


What size is it?  I think Bam-Bam must have an extra-large size head.

I have struggled with headgear for Oden too.  He definitely needs a
draft-sized throatlatch.  His muzzle, though, is a bit smaller than a
regular horse sized halter or bridle.  Try to get stuff that is handmade
where they can customize the size for you.  I'm in the middle of such a
project right now.  (Again.)

Cindy

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RE: Crafty

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


That's what I'm trying to say.  They don't know something is bad.  They
either do what they feel, or what they have been trained to do.  They can't
control either one of those things.

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: RE: Crafty
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 5:52 PM

This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


I would agree.   Animals are honestthey act according to their feelings in
the moment, not by plotting. 

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Re: Spook etc

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


You mean about how mules kick?

--- On Thu, 6/20/13, Theresa Christiansen t...@littlerockfarm.com wrote:

From: Theresa Christiansen t...@littlerockfarm.com
Subject: Re: Spook etc
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 9:27 PM

This message is from: Theresa Christiansen t...@littlerockfarm.com


Wow!  I own both mules and fjords and have for years.  I couldn't disagree
more with your farrier.

tc


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.comwrote:

 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My trimmer was
 very, very cautious.  She siad mules kick to kill, and they can aim.  They
 think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is actually a lot more
 likely to
 hurt somebody than the mule.  The mule always knows where his feet are,
 never
 tries to kick anybody, and he is very friendly to people, and loves for
 people
 to pet him and talk to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is
 scared by people he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely
 to
 squash somebody.

 --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu wrote:


 From: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
 Subject: Re: Spook etc
 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
 Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 2:12 PM


 This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu


 The comment about the filly being bored is probably very true.  They will
 find ways to amuse themselves.  There is a lot to be said for maturity.  I
 sold two other fjords this spring, both of which were four and five years
 old, barely started under saddle.  I get a call at least once a week from
 the owner, absolutely thrilled to death with them and their progress.  She
 has taken them slowly and now is able to ride both of them out in the
 woods, on roads and her 10 year old daughter will be riding one in the 4th
 of July parade.   I was reluctant to sell the younger filly - a two year
 old - and am glad to have her back.   I tried to have him take one of the
 older horses but he wanted one he could start his way.  IAll the
 youngsters have similar breeding and the same start.
 Re mules and watching other horses.  I had a farrier that my horses loved
 and respected.  The mule insisted on going first or her feelings were hurt.
 He was trained by the Amish who told him that with the mule, the first
 time you do it, let him watch the other horses, process the fact that they
 were ok and then they will be fine.  I have problems finding farriers who
 are not afraid of the mule- she is a catalonian/thoroughbred and stands
 about 17 hands tall. After the first session, where he did her last, she
 was his buddy forever.



 On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com
 wrote:

  This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com
 
 
  From the time I've spent with mine, I cannot imagine putting a young
 fjord
  by
  itself with a bunch of kids.  That sounds like a disaster waiting to
  happen,
  which I guess it was.
 
  --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu wrote:
 
 
  From: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
  Subject: Re: Spook etc
  To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
  Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 12:49 PM
 
 
  This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel spiek...@isu.edu
 
 
  my mule is nothing if not a long eared fjord.   Self preservation, a
  certain need to be convinced rather than coerced and a love of food.
 both
  are extremely lovable and probably closer to the wild type of horse than
  the domesticated form, although they have been domesticated for ages.
 
  I recently sold one of my best fillies, who of all of my fjords showed
 the
  most pormise as a laid back kids horse. The purchaser returned her after
  three months.  Although he cited helath reasons, in talking to him, I
 found
  out she had developed a habit of kicking when cornered, chasing his cows
  and his dogs, testing his fences and wanting to eat everything. all very
  mulelike.  Of note, this was his only horse on the place.   The mule is
  herd protector, taking on any thing that is not in her herd, whether
  coyote, dog or moose.  He returned her as a suspicious high strung filly,
  but she is calming down.
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
   This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
  
  
   A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in
  their
   behavior or something like that.  Not being familiar with mules, would
   someone explain?  I have observed that my few fjords are different from
  the
   variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems
  that I
   have to work more with the fjord mind.  Anybody have mules  fjords?
  What
   similarities do you observe?
  
   From Mary's iPad
  
   PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING  OR FORWARDING

Re: Bolting and belligerence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Lol Bam-Bam doesn't do all that bad stuff yet!  Maybe I'll get lucky.  He's
gotten so sweet.  I can totally see what a calm nice good horse he is going to
be in a few years.

--- On Wed, 6/19/13, Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com wrote:


From: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com
Subject: Bolting and belligerence
To: Fjord Digest Reply fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:32 AM


This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com


I was happy to see someone struggle with a rescue fjord here. Rest assured
even non rescues have issues with belligerence. And bolting. And fake
spooking. And anticipation. And genius devil thinking. And relentless attempts
to remain alpha. And laying down on the job. And circling on the blacktop. And
pretending to pee just to rest. And and and..
My thick necked brilliant Lippitt (old style) Morgan's did it all too.

Best hope ride ride ride drive drive drive and try natural horsemanship. Bits
oh yes we like em. Rope halters we like em too.

Tonja Acker-Richards
Pond House Farm

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Re: Bolting and belligerence

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I guess that is a common thing with fjords.  A friend of mine (Saskia, I think
she is on this list) also has one that was trained too harshly and started
bolting away when she came back.  Maybe they just can't handle rough training
like other horses.

--- On Wed, 6/19/13, Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Bolting and belligerence
To: Fjord List fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 12:09 PM


This message is from: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com


The gentle, trusting relationship you have with your horse is what it's all
about. When I read that your horse had had experience with a tough,
experienced trainer, I thought, 'Uh, oh, I'll BET that didn't work.
I had some similar experiences with my first. She was trained up to sell
by a couple of young Western Pleasure/Reiner type people. I've had her for
about 10 years now, and to this day, I cannot carry anythng that even
resembles a whip, like a fly chaser fern, etc., or she bolts until it is
dropped and away from her. It took about 2 years before I could even touch
her sides with my leg or she was off and running - she didn't know where
she was running to, she just knew that when a leg touched her she needed to
go somewhere- fast. She is the best horse ever now. Still fun and crafty,
but I love it.  They can't be pushed around or punished severely. If
something needs to happen it has to be set up so the concrete consequence
is self administered. My gelding was taking off (he only had to walk or
trot no matter what I tried because he is so darned strong) when being
loaded and unloaded at trailer time. He would take off and then turn around
and wait for me to come and get him, or even turn around and walk toward
me, for another try, it was a fun game- for him .I put a bitted bridle on
him, and just held in in a natural leading position. when he took off, he
popped himself with the bit. Not harsh, but effective.
Keep up the good work, it will be so worth it!
BTW: I use Freeform treeless saddles on mine.
Lola



On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 Lol Bam-Bam doesn't do all that bad stuff yet!  Maybe I'll get lucky.  He's
 gotten so sweet.  I can totally see what a calm nice good horse he is
 going to
 be in a few years.

 --- On Wed, 6/19/13, Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com wrote:


 From: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com
 Subject: Bolting and belligerence
 To: Fjord Digest Reply fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com
 Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:32 AM


 This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards tacke...@aol.com


 I was happy to see someone struggle with a rescue fjord here. Rest assured
 even non rescues have issues with belligerence. And bolting. And fake
 spooking. And anticipation. And genius devil thinking. And relentless
 attempts
 to remain alpha. And laying down on the job. And circling on the blacktop.
 And
 pretending to pee just to rest. And and and..
 My thick necked brilliant Lippitt (old style) Morgan's did it all too.

 Best hope ride ride ride drive drive drive and try natural horsemanship.
 Bits
 oh yes we like em. Rope halters we like em too.

 Tonja Acker-Richards
 Pond House Farm

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I looked at mine.  That's where the clip is, holding the brow band on, but I
see I could take that off.  That might make it fit.  Thanks for the idea.

I may not have a Dr. Cook's.  I can't remember for sure the brand name, I got
it on ebay.  It may be a copy or some other brand.



--- On Mon, 6/17/13, Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 3:18 PM

This message is from: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com


Hmm. I don't remember a metal clip. I just unbuckled the cheek piece from
the nose band, and slid the brow band off the cheek and throat latch
straps.

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Re: bridles and bits for fjords

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Thanks.  I'm going really slow.  I'm not in any rush.  I don't want to get
hurt myself or have him get hurt.  I don't care how long it takes; it may
take several years.  I'm doing a lot of reading about this.  I don't have
any people in person to help, so I'm doing it myself, but I have gotten a lot
of good advice like this and on forums, and I think it's going well.  He is a
lot different than when I first got him, but still not there yet.
 
The only person I know who ever tried to ride him used a bit, and he ran away
with her.  She is a really tough experienced horse person, and she said
there was just no way to stop him.   If he gets scared, he
is uncontrollable.  My hoof trimmer had to go very, very slowly with
him, but she specializes in hard-to-trim equines, and he will let his hooves
be trimmed now.  She didn't think he had ever had his hooves trimmed
before.  He pulled people around with a rope halter at the rescue. So a bit
wouldn't save me anyway.  It has to be the training and trust.  He is very
sensitive.  He is not spooky to things, he is very calm with me and
doesn't spook at things a lot of horses would spook about, but he is scared
of people, and as soon as he detects anything but extremely gentle treatment,
he becomes very reactive.  Even if a person walks towards him with the
intent to do something, he gets runs away, or gets very wild if he
 cannot get away.  But if a person doesn't want to do anything to him, he is
OK.  He always knows the difference.  He can sense a person looking at him
and know what they have in mind to do with him.  That's why he wasn't scared
of me, because I didn't know what I was doing, and he knew that.  So I just
do positive reinforcement training with him, and he likes that. He is much,
much better than he was when I got him.
 
I don't know if how he acts is a fjord trait or not. 
 
A lot of people who do positive reinforcement training ride bitless.  .So I
have some good examples.  But I just can't find one that fits him that I
like.  I have the same problem with the mule.  They both have big heads, but
draft sizes are too big.  Kind of big around, but not that long.
 
I'm looking for a trained horse that I can actually ride, and learn what I'm
doing before I ride him.  But I'd like to get the equipment and get him used
to it.

--- On Tue, 6/18/13, Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net wrote:


From: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net
Subject: bridles and bits for fjords
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 8:06 AM


This message is from: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net


I know there are some that ride bitless out there.  I’ve moved a lot over
the years, military life, and never actually saw anyone.  I’d wondered if
it
were more popular amongst the endurance riders?  I do recall a Paso Fino
owner
using a type of bosal to ride in but it was not the hard rawhide, was a soft
leather and her horses were very well trained.

I’d wondered about riding a horse without a bit if one hasn’t much
knowledge or is in the learning phase.  But then I wonder about people using
harsh bits and have much experience.  We are all different that is true.

I would really worry though about a rider on a horse they’ve never really
ridden and is new to them period, especially if they are a green rider, one
just learning.  I only mention this as at some time in all of our lives we
were green riders, and I dare say many of us tried our luck on green horses
and if we were very lucky and God was indeed watching over us, we came out of
it with little scrapes and can look back and say “my God, how did we
survive”.   Theres an expression for that, slips my mind.

But, knowing what I know today, I believe that green rider, green horse, get
thee to a barn for lessons.  If one can find someone that has worked with
fjords, even better.  Especially as they can help with their knowledge about
saddles and bridles and bits.  Always find a trainer that puts the horse
first, not only the comfort in the tack, but the correct training.

And do a lot of research, reading, going  to local shows, see how trainers
work with their horses and their students.  See who’s horses are happy in
the work they do.  Well taken care of.  Look at the horses feet, a good
sign
of a horse well taken care of is regular hoof trimming done right.  Talk to
your veterinarian.  Talk to farriers.  Find  good people in your area that
can
help you.  If you come across ones that give you a bad feeling in your
stomach, they aren’t good to horses, then run.

I hope all new riders the best with their new horses, keep it safe for
themselves and their horses, and enjoy a lifetime together.

Debby

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Thanks Lola.  I guess I ordered the wrong size.  I don't see how to take the
brow-band off in any case.  It has some metal on there that seems like it
would be uncomfortable. Maybe that's how you take it off, take that metal clip
off of there.  I'll have to look at it.

--- On Mon, 6/17/13, Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 11:32 AM


This message is from: Lola Lahr lolal...@gmail.com


I usually use the largest Dr Cook's without the brow band. I use black
elastic pony tail holders (wrapped many times) to keep the cheek piece and
throat latch in place instead of the brow band. You can also have a custom
brow band made by local tack maker/repairer. Recently, I actually had a
bitless bridle made from leather that was designed like the Dr Cook's for a
little over $100. It was custom fit for my new mare. I didn't feel like
fooling around with ordering and returning and trying to make one work,
plus, I needed an additional bridle.

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Re: bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


That saddle looks very interesting.
 
I just don't know about the bridle; I'll have to read some more.  There is
such a mixture of reviews.  Some people say it doesn't release, teaches the
horse to put their head up, or something like that.  What size is it?  I think
Bam-Bam must have an extra-large size head. I get the warmblood size for his
halters.  I think he's kind of big, like 15 hands.   What material is it?  I
don't know if they are all the same thing.
 
I have very little experience with horses and so am learning.  Thanks.

--- On Mon, 6/17/13, Diana Calder dcal...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Diana Calder dcal...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: bridles
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Monday, June 17, 2013, 11:21 AM


This message is from: Diana Calder dcal...@gmail.com


For saddle - we've had good luck with Australian saddles. One was an eBay
purchase (maker unknown) that I pretty much got lucky with, fitwise. The
other is a Down Under Longreach
Endurancehttp://www.downunderweb.com/store/Saddles_Aussie_DownUnder.html.
Down Under Saddlery
http://www.downunderweb.com recommended a couple of options, based on the
withers tracings that I faxed them. They will custom-fit but a standard fit
turned out just fine for both my Fjords. We use both a breastcollar and a
crupper, just in case, but I don't think either has ever actually had to
earn its keep. We use wool pads from Down Under with the saddles. We have
Down Under's wool seat-savers on both saddles. The Longreach gets more use
than the no-name because it's a bigger seat size and has been a better fit
for both my dad and me in recent years but I could probably comfortably use
the other one again. Both are leather but the Longreach is much lighter and
easier to handle. The girth on it is different and buckles English-style. I
love the security of Aussie saddles - I'm not a great rider by any means
but I've never felt in any danger of coming out of the saddle during
Donnie's ten-feet-sideways startle when a pheasant flies out of the
fencerow into his face - if I'd been in a bareback pad during one of those,
I'd have been on the ground.

For bitless bridles - I've used a Nurtural Bitless Bridle with both of our
Fjords a few times - one of our local carriage club members organized a
demo and we bought one when we attended. Donnie went quite well in it
during a time when he just wouldn't stop playing with (and getting his
tongue over) a bit of any type. Once he got past that little phase, we
didn't use the bitless again. We drive more than ride and it wasn't worth
the hassle of getting permission to use it in driving classes and we didn't
want to use something at home that we couldn't at a show. We just didn't
see a big enough difference in bitless versus bitted to make it worthwhile.
If you're interested, I'd be willing to sell it - it's basically like-new
because it had so little usage (maybe 20-30 times?).



On 16 June 2013 19:51, Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com wrote:

 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


 I've been reading the saddle info.  How about bridles?  I want a bitless
 one.
 I have one of those cross-over ones that I converted to side-pull, but it
 was
 too small for my fjord's massive head.  Does anybody use any kind of
 bitless
 bridles that works well and fits?  I could just use a rope halter but I've
 like to have a leather one.

 I'm not riding him yet.  I have a treeless saddle that I think is going to
 work.  I have a bareback pad but the strap won't reach.

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bridles

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I've been reading the saddle info.  How about bridles?  I want a bitless one. 
I have one of those cross-over ones that I converted to side-pull, but it was
too small for my fjord's massive head.  Does anybody use any kind of bitless
bridles that works well and fits?  I could just use a rope halter but I've
like to have a leather one.

I'm not riding him yet.  I have a treeless saddle that I think is going to
work.  I have a bareback pad but the strap won't reach.

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Re: Abrasive Trim clinic Wisconsin/Mich

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


When is this?  I would go if I can get away, depending on when it is.

--- On Fri, 3/29/13, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: Abrasive Trim clinic Wisconsin/Mich
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Friday, March 29, 2013, 4:14 PM

This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


See below.  Is anyone interested in a barefoot abrasive trimming clinic. 
Look
up Soft Touch hoof care for details about the grinder that is available from
Phil, and about abrasivetrimming.  It is much easier, but I do find that
horses do not like the trimmings hitting their bellies.  One needs an upside
down applied bareback pad...or something like that.
Gail

From: abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:42 AM
To: abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [abrasivehorsehooftrimming] Re: trim clinic near wisconsin/michigan



I would be interested too, and I live in south central Minnesota. Also have
another friend in this area that would be too. So that's 2 more.

--- In
abrasivehorsehooftrimm...@yahoogroups.commailto:abrasivehorsehooftrimming%40
yahoogroups.com, candy forpets@...mailto:forpets@... wrote:

 I am wondering if there is anyone who would be willing to get a clinic with
Phil going in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ilinois or Minnesota? I would be willing
to
travel to most of the locations in any of these states if someone could
organize it. Thanks candy My private email if needed is
 forpets @tds. net

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Re: Feeding the chubbies

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi Cindy.  What do you mean about the pasture-- is the pasture not good, the
24/7 not good, or the over-grazed part not good? 

(Lol you know my difficulties comprehending language since I got into horses. 
I never understand the subtleties.)

Bam-Bam is on snow-covered pasture now, so they aren't eating grass, fed hay
24/7 (supplied by facility, I don't know what it is), a small amount of a
different kind of hay once/ most days that I bring and feedd to my two, and
variable quantities of carrots and/or other treats.  (I buy at the feed store,
just to hopefully give them so variety) 

I'm a little worried about what's going to happen in the spring, but this is
how he lived before I got him too, I mean out in a pasture just eating the
grass with other horses, supplemented with hay, so hopefully it will be OK. 

Oh vitamin and mineral supplements too.

I don't know if he is too fat or not, I don't really think so.

--- On Sat, 3/9/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Feeding the chubbies
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, March 9, 2013, 2:51 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


Those of you who limit your Fjord's feed to keep them from getting obese
-- how much do you give them, and what do you give them?

Mine gets 20 lbs a day of chaffhaye (which is very low starch/sugar
alfalfa) + a couple of handfuls a day of a could-be-fed-free-choice feed
(which I use in training) + some supplements.  Oh, and plus very
overgrazed pasture 24/7 (which I know is not good for IR-prone horses, but
it's all I have).  He gets the chaffhaye through a slow feeder, but it's
still gone faster than I would wish.  :(

He looks terrific, but he tells me he's starving.

What are you doing?

Cindy
Lots of pictures of his fine self here: 
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden

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Re: Feeding the chubbies

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


So much to know.  Thanks!

--- On Sat, 3/9/13, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:

From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: Feeding the chubbies
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Saturday, March 9, 2013, 6:38 PM

This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


What do you mean about the pasture-- is the pasture not good, the
24/7 not good, or the over-grazed part not good?

Hi Ro,

The current thinking is that stressed-out grass is high in sugar and
therefore the worst for horses prone to insulin resistance, laminitis,
founder, and just plain chubbiness.  Stressed out grass is supposed to be
the worst right after a rain when it gets a shot in the arm and sprouts
up.

I'm a little worried about what's going to happen in the spring, but
this is
how he lived before I got him too, I mean out in a pasture just eating the
grass with other horses, supplemented with hay, so hopefully it will be
OK. 

Spring grass can be a problem.  Some people use a grazing muzzle or dry
lot (a lot with no green growth).  I really don't care for either option.
It's hard to know how to give our horses a perfect life.  :)

Cindy

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Re: Bam Bam feet

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Thanks Mary.  I've got some CA books around here to read...

--- On Thu, 11/29/12, Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com
Subject: Bam Bam feet
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Thursday, November 29, 2012, 12:24 PM

This message is from: Me Kint me.k...@yahoo.com


However, when I try to pick up his foot, he either doesn't move it, or
he jerks it away and slams it back down.

I use a little CT as well as C. Anderson's method...make the right thing easy
 the wrong thing difficult.  When you ask nicely  don't get the correct
response/effort put Bam Bam to work!  Make him HUSTLE move forward backward
left  right,  then stop, calmly try the feet again.  Repeat as many times as
necessary.  When you get the least little bit of positive response, click ( I
changed the click to a cluck with my tongue so i don't have to carry a clicker
around  free up both hands, the horses catch on to the change real fast.) 
treat, pour on the praise  quit.   Repeat the process daily or even twice a
day but not immediately following.  Give him time to think  absorb between
efforts.  This method addresses that horses are basically lazy   the right
response is easy but the wrong response is a lot of WORK.

From Mary's iPad

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Fw: Re: Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


#yiv1988381887 p {margin:0;}



HI!  So glad you adopted your fjord and a mule...I love both breeds.  
Names?
 
The mule's name is Odi.  The fjord's name was Oli--just random that they had
rhyming names, but I couldn't keep them straight, and Odi couldn't tell the
difference (it didn't help I used the wrong name half the time.)  Since Odi
knew his name, I kept his the same, and have been calling the fjord Bam-Bam. 
I guess that's his name now lol, since he knows it.  It was just one of
several nicknames I had for him while I was thinking of a name, but it
stuck.  (Better than Butter-Butt, I guess, which was one of the other
ones.)  His personality is very much Bam-Bam right now (he kicked me in the
shins twice (not very hard) when I turned my attention away from him
momentarily and he thought I should still be looking at him), but he's getting
better all the time.
 
   I have a 9 yo mare and yes, they are very smart...and mine is food
motivated so if you know clicker training, there are people doing that with
them.   There are a couple of sites on facebook...Norwegian
Fjords...Fjords   one of the women there is sharing what she is doing with a
clicker.   There is also some good stuff on youtube.   I recall seeing a
video of someone at mule rescue getting an appy mule to go into a wash
stall...it was really cool!!
 
Yes, CT is great.  I think I am following the woman on facebook; Life with
Oden?  And yes, they are both definitely food-motivated.  That was the
amazing part; I thought dogs were food-motivated, but there are things dogs
like better than food sometimes.  I don't think there is anything those
horses like better!
 
Soph recently gave pony rides to small children and even let them lead her
around.  I have to watch the treats, because she gets very pushy...has pulled
tabs off my barn coat.  I get after her and she acts sullen...for a while 
LOL  She seems to be sensitive to correction once she understands what you
want.
 
With CT, the first thing you train them (any animal, not just horses) is not
to mug you for treats.  So it takes care of that problem.
 
I have a western trainer helping me with her.   She was pretty green a year
ago... he loves working with her.  She is very smart and happy to work.
 
That's good to hear.  Yea these two guys come running when they see me.  I
don't think they think it is work, lol. 
 
Good luck!   Keep us up to date with your progress.   Beth and Soph

Beth, Bob, the Corgis and the Fjord
 
Thanks for the welcome! 
 
 



From: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:47:50 PM
Subject: Introduction

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi everybody.� I hope I am posting to this list the right way.

I have a four year old fjord gelding that I got from a horse rescue.� He
was
left there after two owners gave up on him.� I have had him for about two
months.� He has had minimal training, and I don't think any of it stuck.

I am new to horses.� I learned about clicker-training last year with a
problem
dog, and that worked so well, it gave me confidence to try it on a new
species. It's going really well.� He was VERY pushy and domineering at
first,
and I was rather stupid and probably put myself in danger, I realize now that
I know more, but it turned out OK, and he has made a huge amount of
progress.�
So, now that I know better, and he is better, it's all good.

He is incredibly smart, and not scared of anything.� I have a mule that I
do
CT with too.� The reason that I picked those two out of all the horses was
that they always came to the gate to greet me when I got there, and the one
left in the field always watched me as I worked with the other one, obviously
wanting to be in on it.� So I couldn't leave either behind.� The mule is
12.�
He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot more suspicious
and spooky. So they both need a lot of work.� Somebody told me that mules
and
fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two.� I
thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison.

Anyway, I found this list, and thought it would be interesting to see what
other people are doing with their fjords.� My immediate issue with mine is
his
hooves.� I want to keep him barefoot, and I think from what I read that is
how
most fjords are.� A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let
the
guy get near him.� So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet
handled.� I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet.�
I'm
sure we'll get there, but after that, I don't know a good barefoot trimmer in
my area.� He obviously needs something done, so I was going to let the
farrier
just trim him, despite the fact he doesn't seem to now anything special about
barefoot trimming.ï

Fw: Re: Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi Cindy!  I've been following you and Oden with interest since you are using
CT too and Oden is way ahead of Bam-Bam.
 
Luckily, I can touch him all over with my hands and with stuff, he doesn't
mind that.  I have been using umbrella, tarp, plastic bags, metal pans, etc.
to desensitize Odi the mule, who is very wary and suspicious of anything new,
and then I do it with Bam-Bam too, and he doesn't care.  He watches Odi, who
has to work up to doing it slowly, and then when it's his turn he runs over
and starts touching things and stomping on things, so he can get CT too. 
Actually he broke out of his halter which I must not have tied well when he
was tied up yesterday to come touch the umbrella, lol.  And I can touch his
legs and his hooves fine.
 
However, when I try to pick up his foot, he either doesn't move it, or
he jerks it away and slams it back down.  I am just CT for any tiny bit of
progress at this point.   It's hard to catch that time that it's up before
it's slammed back down again.  Surely he's had his hooves worked on at some
point, but it's like he has no idea what I am trying to do.  Maybe he thinks I
want him to move his foot over.
 
He does do this thing when I'm not CT fast enough for him where he picks up
his front foot and waves it around.  I'm always worried he's going to paw/kick
forward, since he has done that before, but that was under different
circumstances.  I wonder if I should CT that to start, since his foot is way
in the air then.  That's an idea, I guess.  I haven't noticed if it's always
the same foot or not, like if he is left or right-hooved.  (Or horses left or
right-hooved?)
 
Thanks!  That gives me an idea.   Nice to see you here. :)

--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org wrote:


From: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org
Subject: Re: Introduction
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 2:30 PM


This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti cin...@ipi.org


Ro, since I know you're doing clicker training, the way to approach this
is to break it into the smallest possible steps.

If it were me, I would probably get a carrot stick (so I could stand back
until I was sure whether he was going to kick out).  Take the time to make
sure he's comfortable with your stroking him with the stick.  Then, see if
you can rub his flank with the stick.  If so, click and treat for that.
Then, gradually, start running the stick down his leg.  Click and treat
for that.  Continue that until you are sure he won't kick at the stick.

Then repeat the exercise with your hand, clicking for him staying calm as
you touch his flank, his leg, his ankle, and then, finally, his hoof.

You'll need to repeat this on each hoof.

Finally, you'll try to pick a hoof up.  At first, click and treat even if
he just shifts his weight off the hoof you want.  In the end, you won't
click until you can hold the hoof quietly in your hand.

I am working on this with Oden right now, although Oden doesn't have
issues with having his hooves touched.  I'll try to get a video of it.  I
actually tried -- with you in mind -- just a few minutes ago; but I was
working by myself, and there was no way to hold the camera, the hoof, the
clicker, and everything else.  LOL!  I had to give up!  But I'll try again
when I can get my photographer (my 15YO son) to come out with me.

Cindy

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Fw: Re: Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi Mary.  This is what happened.  I held Odi the mule, while Bam-Bam was tied
up and watching.  (That was probably a mistake; he always watches stuff that's
going on.)  The farrier did Odi's front hooves fine (he doesn't need much
work, it just took a few minutes).  Then he went for his back hooves, and Odi
didn't like that and started moving around.  Before I really knew what was
happening, he had a rope out and was going to use it somehow on his back
feet.  Odi freaked out and wasn't having any of that, and the farrier said,
He's been hog-tied before, and gave up on him.  That was annoying to me,
because I didn't know he was going to do something traumatic to Odi. 
 
When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had
me hold him and went at his feet.  So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the
farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier started got
close to us.  He didn't rear, but he was jumping all around and it was hard
for me to hold onto.  The farrier was like, OK, no way, and he turned around
and left.  The Bam-Bam was fine.  Bam-Bam just didn't want that bad guy
carrying torture-implements (for all he knew) getting close to him.
 
So, I can see that mistakes that were made.  Strange man holding strange
tools, he sees the man do something bad to Odi, then the man goes at him like
a predator, I haven't been lifting his hooves, etc.  My fault.
 
Oh good, thanks so much for that link.  I'll check it out.  The state of his
hooves are my main worry with him.  I've tried several leads but nothing has
panned out yet.  I need to get him more comfortable first anyway, I guess.
 
 
--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:


From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: Re: Introduction
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 9:27 AM


This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


The mule is 12.  He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot
more suspicious
 and spooky. So they both need a lot of work. Somebody told me that mules
and
 fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two. I
 thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison.

We have a mule and five Fjords. And yes, the mule and Fjords have
similarities, such as needing to understand if it benefits them to do
something, then convinicing them to do so.


A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let the
 guy get near him. So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet
 handled. I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet.

If this horse has had problems in the past, he may be wary of farriers.  How
did he approach your horse?
Did he let the horse sniff him, and did he 'introduce' himself to the horse,
or did he just go in and grab a leg and
start to trim?  Most farriers come in smelling like other horses, and
sometimes that will make a horse suspicious.


I am in northern Wisconsin (Rhinelander). If anybody
 knows a good trimmer near me, especially for a fjord and any special needs
 they may have, I would appreciate if you let me know.

All our animals are barefoot and have been for several years.  We do
occasionally use boots - Cavallo Sport are my choice.
Here's a link to the Wisconsin Association for the Advancement of Natural
Horse Care Practices:

http://www.aanhcp.net/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=140Itemid
=121

Good luck in your search for a Natural Hoof Care Practitioner.

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Fw: Introducing My Rescue Fjord

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Yay, another rescue fjord!  Hi Keslie, I just joined the list too.  I also
have a four year old gelding from a rescue, named Bam-Bam.  I've had him for
about two months.
 
I'm so glad Trumann is OK now, and that he has found a good home.  Trumann is
much further along in his training than Bam-Bam.  That is inspiring, that he
has come so far.
 
I couldn't see the picture.  :(

--- On Wed, 11/28/12, keslie_d...@comcast.net keslie_d...@comcast.net
wrote:


From: keslie_d...@comcast.net keslie_d...@comcast.net
Subject: Introducing My Rescue Fjord
To: fjordhorse fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 12:38 PM


This message is from: keslie_d...@comcast.net


Hello All-


A while back Gayle Ware of Field of Dreams asked me to introduce myself, so I
hope I am doing this right. My name is Keslie Down and last March, I adopted
my four year-old Fjord gelding Trumann (picture attached) from the USPCA in
Yamhill, Oregon. Trumann, along with his mother, mother's sister, and a senior
Arabian mare, belonged to an animal hoarder who tried to hide them from the
authorities for nearly a year before a farmer found them loose, grazing in his
field, several miles from their original home. The seizure included the four
horses, several turkeys, pigs, goats and chickens.


When found, the horses were thin, malnourished, and anemic and their hooves
were in terrible shape, but they took to their rescuers immediately and
Trumann--who had never seen a trailer (or probably a halter) in his life,
hopped right in and went along for the ride in true Fjord fashion. Upon his
arrival they discovered that he had partial vision loss in his left eye,
possibly due to an injury sustained while in the wild, though he wasn't (and
isn't) bothered by it in the least. He became an immediate favorite at the
Rescue Barn because of his sweet and accepting (and sometimes mischievous)
personality.


I have loved and ridden horses most of my life, and after taking lessons with
Gayle and falling in love with the Fjord breed, I knew I had to have one of my
own. I stumbled upon him in a Craigslist ad, his information squished between
two flashy horses. I had been casually looking at other Fjords for a while,
but hadn't yet found the one. I told my husband that it couldn't hurt to
just have a look at him--my famous last words! It was love at first sight. His
calm, easy going (even for a Fjord) and trusting countenance won me over
completely, and before I knew it, I was bringing him home just in time for my
31st birthday. It was a dream come true.


The adoption was not without stresses--he was sick just days after we brought
him home, runny nose, cough, the works. And, upon our vet's hunch, we tested
him for leptospirosis (a bacterial infection caused by wild animal urine
that's contaminated drinking water, which can cause blindness, kidney trouble,
etc) and discovered that he was mildly positive. This put me into a complete
tailspin as we waited to see what the markers in his blood work would do--what
if he continued to go blind? I knew I couldn't continue boarding a young and
completely blind horse. What could I do? I hated thinking about having to give
him up.


We waited, continued to rehabilitate him with good nutrition, antibiotics,
iron, and LOTS of love, and when his vet check came back clear and healthy (a
TRUE miracle), I couldn't wait to get out to the barn to hug everyone who had
helped get him back on his feet. Trumann is now going beautifully under
saddle, and is constantly learning and surprising us all. We call him the
Little Engine That Could. Gayle says he was an honor student during his
training, and I continue to be amazed at his progress, his sound mind, and his
gentle heart, and accepting spirit. I couldn't be more in love with this
horse!


Adopting a rescue horse is not for the faint of heart, and is surely not for
everyone, but I can say, knowing what I know now, that I would do it all over
again. It was a long road, but well worth the journey. The reward has been an
amazing Fjord partner that I will continue to love and grow with for years to
come, for better or for worse. Feel free to e-mail me with more questions or
for info on adopting a rescue. I'm happy to share!


I could not have done it alone--Many THANKS to Gayle and the wonderful people
at Field of Dreams for all their love, support and prayers. And another happy
ending--all of the horses in his herd now have forever homes! Trumann's mother
and auntie were adopted by The Healing Reins Therapeutic Riding Center in Bend
and they are amazing therapy horses who love their job. It doesn't always work
out this way, and I truly count my blessings.

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Fw: CT the mule.....

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Oh, that was Bam-Bam the fjord that waves his foot around, and he is the one
I'm having the most trouble with.  Odi is older and has been around some,
which is good and bad, I guess.  Odi doesn't mind too much his front feet
being worked with, but I was warned about his back feet at the rescue, and
then we had that problem with the farrier.  However, he doesn't mind
me touchiing them, but I haven't had the nerve to ask him to lift them yet.
All in good time...and when I'm wearing a helmet and maybe a hockey-mask. 
Othewise, Odi is very calm and still all the time when I'm working with him. 
He never waves his foot at me.  He is like a statue, just facing foward
without moving even if he's not tied, and lets me put things on him, walk
around him, etc. without moving at all.
 
However, I wonder if I could use this idea for Bam-Bam the fjord.  I have a
hoof-jack (big dreams of doing it myself someday.)  I wonder if I brought that
and just put it in front of him and waited.  He paws a lot, so he would kick
it eventually. 
 
Do you think I should do that, or CT and shape him from waving his front foot
around, or just continue with trying to pick it up by hand?  I really haven't
tried just doing it by hand very much.
 
(Lol, I just thought of a cute trick:  Ask him his name, and teach him to
bam his foot twice.  Possibly not smart however if he wants to introduce
himself too often, like your mule wanting to shake everybody's hand, lol.)

--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org wrote:


From: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org
Subject: CT the mule.
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:13 PM


This message is from: Mary Ofjord ma...@boreal.org


 He does do this thing when I'm not CT fast enough for him where he picks up
 his front foot and waves it around. I'm always worried he's going to
paw/kick
 forward, since he has done that before, but that was under different
 circumstances. I wonder if I should CT that to start, since his foot is way
 in the air then.

I had to laugh when I read this part, because we taught our mule to put his
front foot on the farrier's stand by CT.
As soon as we got his foot into position, we'd click  treat. He caught on
REAL fast!
The next time the farrier came out, she crossed in front of the mule, who
promptly put his foot out, only he hit the farrier with his leg.
I can now ask him to 'shake hands' by pointing at either front foot - he
learned that from clicker training too.  Now, you have to be careful when
you're by the front of the mule if you're not paying attention, because he
wants to raise his legs to see if there's anything in it for him. He also is
very good about putting his front feet on the farrier's stand.
Be careful what you teach mules..

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RE: Re: Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


I don't think I can read animals' minds, and I sure don't claim to be an
expert on horses, but they are not black boxes anymore than other people are. 
I think that people are more so than animals, being more complex.  Some
emotions are obvious, some are subtle, but it can be very useful if you know
what the emotion is.  I think we can safely assume that fear is at the top
of a horses' strong emotions.  That's not really psychoanalysis, lol; it's
just common sense, as fellow mammals.

I don't know why Bam-Bam kicked me when I turned my attention to somebody
else:  jealousy, anger, pawing due to frustration, a simple reflex?  I don't
know why he moves his foot when I touch it--irritation, an attempt at
compliance, a simple reflex?  But I do know fear when I see it, even in an
animal that I am not very familiar with.

However, I understand why you are saying that, and I do try not to read too
much into anything. I know people in general assume way too many things about
why animals are doing what they do.  I try to neither anthropomorphize, nor
dismiss what any child could tell a scientist about what an animal is
feeling.  Emotions are universal, coming from a very primitive part of the
brain.  A lot of time, the exact emotion is somewhat irrelevant; however, if
you are doing something counter to a very strong emotion, it helps to realize
that, and take it into account.  Especially something as basic (and
potentially dangerous) as fear in an animal like a horse.  Bam-Bam scared was
not something that I had experienced before, and it was not fun for either of
us.

Yes, I have all of Alexandra's stuff, and follow her list.  She was nice
enough to reply personally to me when I first got the horses and e-mailed her
for advice.  Very good information; I think that she really uses CT to its
potential with horses. A lot of it is just beyond me; so subtle; but it's very
beautiful.

I'm not going to just simulate drunkenness, I plan to actually get
falling-down drunk and ride, so as to expose the horses to every likely
situation that they may encounter.  Not tonight, however; it's pretty cold,
and I don't want to be incapacitated out there, if worse comes to worst.  
Luckily, I live in Wisconsin, a great state where drunk driving is merely
frowned upon, and all those pesky laws about the operation of a vehicle while
under the influence have the word motor, in there somewhere, I think.

Kidding!  Seriously, I am clumsy, so falling down by them on purpose would
probably be a good idea.  I was watching Rick Gore acting silly and falling
all over and running up waving his arms and going under them and sticking his
head between their back legs--I'm sure that's all good.  I am going to try to
expose them to everything I can in a controlled way, so they will be ready
when things are not as controlled.

I can't really travel to any conferences about CT.  I have young dogs and cats
at home who need me.  I don't even travel for work conferences anymore.  In my
experience, conferences are always way more trouble than they are worth, in
any case.  The learning/dollars is pretty low compared to just reading and
talking like this.  Lots of good ideas so far here.


--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: RE: Re: Introduction
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:37 PM

This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


Be careful about all the pschoanalysis of why Bam Bam was unable to stand for
the farrier.  BF Skinner always cautioned that the organism (BAM BAM) should
be treated as a black box.  You have no idea of his motivations or what else
is going on in his head.  It is enough to just accept the fact that he does
not know how to deal with this situation, and figure out how to prepare him
for picking up his feet in a variety of situations, including with a farrier
who approaches in any old manner.  I know horse trainers who pretend to be
falling down drunks trying to mount their horses.get the horse used to
anythingand the truth is that many many horses will eventually have to
deal with a falling down drunk person :).  I encourage you to buy Alexandra
Kurland's books and join her click that teaches list.  She is a trained
behavioral scientist, as are some of the people on her list.

Also, consider going to the Clicker Expo or to the Wicked Minds conference in
January at Texas State University.

GAil
?
When he started with Odi, he didn't introduce himself or go slowly, just had
me hold him and went at his feet.? So after that, I got Bam-Bam, and the
farrier couldn't even get near him, he went wild when the farrier?started?got
close to us.? He didn't rear, but he was jumping all?around and it was hard
for me to hold onto.? The farrier was like, OK, no way, and he turned around
and left.? The Bam-Bam was fine.??Bam-Bam just didn't want

Re: picking up feet

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Thanks Debby.  That wouldn't be good to see a farrier treating your horse in
a way that you knew was uncomfortable. I would think that somebody like that
would be more considerate, and not just act like a mechanic working on a
machine. 

Ynde probably got used to your way, and to your husband's way--she had two
different habits, depending on the person.

Yes, slow and steady, it can be done. :)




--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net wrote:

From: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net
Subject: picking up feet
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 PM

This message is from: Debby Stai debby.s...@earthlink.net


When I’ve had problems with a horse or a pony, even a mini that was scared,
very scared (thinking not treated so kindly in his previous life), I would
always have someone hold them with the lead rope, never tying.  If they are
tied and then struggle and feel trapped, I think it’s a concern for them
and
for me.
I always do a “tr” noise, not sure where I picked it up, it’s a
soothing noise I make.  I try to do a lot of pick up foot, tap on bottom and
put foot down before they take from me.  As they get better, and know me
better, I expect a bit more, and try to not let them yank the foot or do the
pulling with the back foot, trying to stay as close to their body as
possible.
Always lots of good boy, good girl, rubbing, scratching.  I always take
notice
too, that a new farrier would introduce himself or herself.

My Langster was terrible about moving away, sneaky bugger.  Ears pinned like
he was so bad, but he was not.  He was a good boy.  Ynde is kind of that
way.
I find with her, she does not like her foot held tight, and some farriers
will
put a death grip.  I know they have to hold the foot in awkward positions
for
the horses, and its tough on smaller horses and ponies and as tough on the
farrier, getting that leg where he needs it.  I’ve had farriers do great
jobs, get it done and fast and good and others slow and the horses get
grouchy.  The last farrier I’d tried was over 6ft tall, and doing my old
mare that was just 13.2 with arthritis, I’d have to ask him please try to
not pull her back legs way out behind her, she had arthritis in her hocks.
With most of mine I could just rest their foot on my hand and pick out their
feet, and they have the other foot lifted when I got to it.  Funny thing is,
I
had my way, which foot to start with and work around the pony, and husband
would do it the opposite, and Ynde is a creature of habit.
The minis we have now, were a bit nervous about feet being done, and they
have
been handled and had their feet done, but I suspect a bit rough treatment.
But calm I do it and now they are calm and I do it  while they are munching
hay.  They are better with me than with husband, but I touch the leg and he
grabs.

Good luck with yours, they will come around, just daily and a bit at a time,
even just picking up, patting, go to the next foot.  Eventually it will all
come natural.

Debby in Tx

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Re: Hello from Canada

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Saskia!  You made it! ;-) 

Saskia has helped me immensely.  Her understanding of horses and ability to
communicate her knowledge in a usable way to a complete newbie like me is
amazing. 

We are going to ride our fjords together someday. :)

--- On Wed, 11/28/12, ronsaskia rbd...@accesscomm.ca wrote:

From: ronsaskia rbd...@accesscomm.ca
Subject: Hello from Canada
To: fjordhorse-dig...@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:53 PM

This message is from: ronsaskia rbd...@accesscomm.ca


Hi everyone,
I just want to introduce myself. My name is Saskia, I live in Saskatchewan,
and I own 2 horses. One is a 7 year old Fjord horse mare, Freya , and the
other one is Flicka,  a pony mare of almost 9 years old,  that looks like a
New Foundland pony.
I bought Flicka green broke 6 years ago, and she’s my riding horse since
then. She’s a sweetheart and very reliable.

I bought Freya, my fjord horse untrained. In fact she was never handled. The
only thing that was done with her was chasing her into a chute 2 times a
year,
where she would be tied up so they could shave her mane. She was never
touched
by a farrier so her feet were very neglected. When I got her, she was a very
scared mare, didn’t trust people. But I worked almost daily with her and
won
her trust. It took me 6 months to get her ready for a farrier so he could
take
care of her (cow) feet. So in a way you can say she’s a rescue horse.

Freya has a bolting problem, developed after I send her to a regular trainer
that I thought was a good trainer. She started to bolt during the 5 weeks in
training, probably caused by too much pressure and the pain of a bit,  and
when she came back home, she was changed from a calm horse into this nervous
horse that thought she had to run all the time. On our 3rd ride she bolted on
me and jumped my wire fence. I fell off and lucky got only hurt a little,
Freya was ok. I left her in pasture for 6 weeks after that, then re-trained
her with the courses of Leslie Pavlich. Since then she never bolted on me
again and I could ride her again in a calm walk and since last summer we are
even going into trot without running off. Plus I never put a bit in her mouth
again. I ride her in a bitless bridle.  We take little steps but that’s
ok.
I’m not in a rush. I just enjoy our journey.

I got to this list because of Rovena, who owns a mule and a fjord horse. I
think it’s great to have contact with other fjord horse owners and exchange
our experiences with our beautiful fluffy equines.
Saskia Dockrill

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RE: Re: Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Be still is something that I am really working on right now.

Yes, head down was one of the first things I worked on, and he still offers
that as a default behavior, which is good.

--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com wrote:

From: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com
Subject: RE: Re: Introduction
To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 4:27 PM

This message is from: Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com


You need to train an opposite action as he has gotten the idea that movement
is being rewarded.  It is tricky to clicker train foot stuff because they get
too enthusiastic.  I would start rewarding for keeping all four on the
floor.  Under various circumstances. 

Then, train the picking up of the foot and make sure to put it under stimulus
control.  I have never really gotten down how to have really good stimulus
control.  Kathy Sdao has a DVD or two on the subject.

One place to look at is Clean Run, which is a dog agility training site.  They
have lots of DVD's on various details of training.  All of it is positive
reinforcement training.  Not because they have a thing for it, but because
it is the only thing that works to train winning agility dogs.

Overall, it sounds like you need more of the training detail.  I sympathize. 
I have had some mishaps training behaviors involving feet.  However, these
things are fixable.  It does sound like you need to do a lot of training of
quiet behaviors.  Have you worked on head down?

Gail

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Introduction

[Rovena Kessinger]

This message is from: Rovena Kessinger ro_k...@yahoo.com


Hi everybody.  I hope I am posting to this list the right way.

I have a four year old fjord gelding that I got from a horse rescue.  He was
left there after two owners gave up on him.  I have had him for about two
months.  He has had minimal training, and I don't think any of it stuck.

I am new to horses.  I learned about clicker-training last year with a problem
dog, and that worked so well, it gave me confidence to try it on a new
species. It's going really well.  He was VERY pushy and domineering at first,
and I was rather stupid and probably put myself in danger, I realize now that
I know more, but it turned out OK, and he has made a huge amount of progress. 
So, now that I know better, and he is better, it's all good.

He is incredibly smart, and not scared of anything.  I have a mule that I do
CT with too.  The reason that I picked those two out of all the horses was
that they always came to the gate to greet me when I got there, and the one
left in the field always watched me as I worked with the other one, obviously
wanting to be in on it.  So I couldn't leave either behind.  The mule is 12. 
He is much more well-trained than the fjord, but also a lot more suspicious
and spooky. So they both need a lot of work.  Somebody told me that mules and
fjords are a lot alike, so it made sense what happened with those two.  I
thought those two made the other horses seem like sheep in comparison.

Anyway, I found this list, and thought it would be interesting to see what
other people are doing with their fjords.  My immediate issue with mine is his
hooves.  I want to keep him barefoot, and I think from what I read that is how
most fjords are.  A farrier came just to trim, but my horse wouldn't let the
guy get near him.  So I am trying to desensitize him to having his feet
handled.  I can touch all of them now, but haven't picked them up yet.  I'm
sure we'll get there, but after that, I don't know a good barefoot trimmer in
my area.  He obviously needs something done, so I was going to let the farrier
just trim him, despite the fact he doesn't seem to now anything special about
barefoot trimming.  I am in northern Wisconsin (Rhinelander).  If anybody
knows a good trimmer near me, especially for a fjord and any special needs
they may have, I would appreciate if you let me know.

Thanks, Ro

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