Re: When to geld
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:47 AM 4/30/2002 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's an excellent question to bring up, especially with this breed, since there is an extraordinarily high percentage of colts here that are left whole. Mike, seems that you I had this discussion a while ago. Has it gotten any better? Well with 356 living stallions listed on the books I don't think so. Way back in the beginning when I first bought Dusty, I saw things happening within this breed that alarmed me. For instance, a breeder would sell a weanling colt cheap as a gelding prospect. Time would pass and before you knew it, the weanling had become of breeding age and had not yet 'met the knife'. And before you knew it the owner started thinking about making some money by breeding a few mares. In most cases, the owner had no idea whether this critter was of good enough quality to be used as a stallion. So then breeders need to sell geldings NOT prospects! Besides geldings are cheaper to register so the breeders should be doing the gelding the registering before they are sold. The other problem that arises from this is that the Fjord gene pool is relatively small in this country when you compare to QH's, Arabs, etc. So now we have a high number of stallions prancing around that are all carrying the same blood lines. Yes this is probably true. I have since been gelding all of my colts prior to them leaving my possession. I think this is the best practice myself Gayle. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: When to geld
This message is from: Skeels, Mark A (MED) [EMAIL PROTECTED] One thing to note on this message, remember that the gelding can still be fertile for a couple months after he is gelded; just in case you have mares around you should still keep them separate for quite a while. Mark Skeels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 6:48 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: When to geld This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our gelding who is now almost 10 years old, and who we have owned for two years, was gelded when he was 3 1/2 years old, and my personal feeling is: that is way to late, as he is a real pain when our two mares (1 arab, 1 QH) come in heat. He will literally mount them and perform, - something I did not know he would or could do. Rondi Tyler. So. Calif.
Re: When to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our gelding who is now almost 10 years old, and who we have owned for two years, was gelded when he was 3 1/2 years old, and my personal feeling is: that is way to late, as he is a real pain when our two mares (1 arab, 1 QH) come in heat. He will literally mount them and perform, - something I did not know he would or could do. Rondi Tyler. So. Calif.
RE: When to geld
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just thought I's mention how it works in Norway. We usually never geld until they are three - so this is a big difference. It seems like all the ones gelded early are doing equally well here in the U.S. Saves a lot of effort and avoids dangerous situations though, it's not for everybody to have a 3-year-old bursting with hormones on their hands. However we are very strict about the breeding, since you are not allowed to breed a stallion that has not been approved by the registry (BTW, stallion show coming up this weekend in Norway, anybody going?). The only exception is if you own both the mare and the stallion, but the offspring will have little value if the sire is not approved so this is not done. What are the rules in the US? Dagrun in San Jose, happily playing with fjords Quinn and Tinn, waiting for that saddle I bought on ebay.
Re: When to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 5/1/2002 6:49:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I decided to geld my colts that year just prior to weaning so that they could get healed nicely before I took them away from their moms. Didn't want to do those things too close together so they wouldn't be overly stressed. It worked out wonderfully well, colts healed quite quickly, and by the time they went to their new homes, it was all said and done and I didn't have to worry about whether the new owner was going to cut them. I have since been gelding all of my colts prior to them leaving my possession. Gayle: I wholeheartedly agree with this; we've done the same thing with both of the colts we've had so far. Cutting while they are still on the mare does make it a bit less stressfull on the little guy. And of course it makes it so you don't have to worry about whether the new owner gelds or not. More breeders (both the big ones and the back yard breeders - nothing derogatory meant for either one) should take this BIG responsibility on themselves, rather than leaving the decision up to a purchaser who may have no clue as to whether they have a stallion quality colt or not. Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Redmond, OR Fjord [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: WHen to geld
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Having left Odin until he was one year, I think it would have been better to geld him earlier(or not at all...he is turning out to be a very nicely put together grey gelding with a rock-solid unflappable Fjord disposition). My reasoning is that the year he spent being poisoned by testosterone COULD have left him with some fairly serious psychological problems if we had tried to train him and subdue all of his more difficult impulses. Fortunately, caring for my demented mother meant we were forced to more or less neglect his training until the age of two, so he did not have a long history of being nippy and obstinate, and then being (inexpertly) corrected by us. When we started him at two he was VERY difficult, but came along a little. Then we let him sit over the winter until age three and now he has finally figured out that he has a job to do and is just fine. So, my advice re the stud colt is to geld him right away. If you think you want him to be a stallion, DO NOT spend more time trying to train him yourselves using a whip. While it is true that he does need to learn to submit, a whip in the hands of someone who has not developed the right timing will just result in a confused, frustrated and dangerous colt. Turn him over to an expert trainer (if you can find such a thing who knows how to work with Fjords...who DO NOT necessarily respond to the usual techniques of so-called trainers ) OR turn him over to a really nasty mare. Another little caution. YOur baby sounds like Odin...very dominant. We found that geldings put up with WAY too much nonsense from himhe just walked all over them, and then, when they came back to discipline him, he did his little I'm just a baby, don't hurt me routine and never really suffered the consequences of his actions. Had we had a mare around (other than his mother, who was TOTALLY permissive with him) he might have been easier to work with when we started him. Gail Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: WHen to geld
This message is from: Skeels, Mark A (MED) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our vet said that the earlier the better; however, you probably need to be sure both testicals have dropped, sometimes this can take over 6 months. Our last one seemed to drop and go back up, when the vet showed up it was up, but the vet said when they guy is tranquilized it will probably drop, and that's exactly what happened. Mark Skeels Got into 50's today, threat of rain again tonight. Planted my lawn last week so all the rain is good I guess. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 10:24 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: WHen to geld This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/29/2002 7:45:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WHEN is the best time to geld a colt. Janne: I talked to our vet about this on several occasions. There is the old adage that you should let the colt get his growth before gelding; so folks will wait to geld till 2 years old. According to my vet, a colt gelded earlier (say 4 months to a year - or even a bit earlier) will actually grow more than the colt left ungelded until 2 or more years. And, the younger they are the easier the surgery is on them. For me, if a colt is obviously a gelding candidate it's best to do it sooner rather than later. If a colt is possible stallion material That's another thing altogether. Look at oxen for instance. When have you ever seen a bull get as big as some of the work oxen you've seen? And most of these oxen were cut or banded within the first few days of their life. Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Redmond, OR Fjord [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WHen to geld
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Janne Myrdal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In light of the reason discussion on the misbehaving of a colt, I wanted to bring up a discussion that we have had quite a bit of locally. WHEN is the best time to geld a colt. That's something that'll have a lot of different answers. Some folks want them to get their growth first. One vet who used to post to another list said any time after the mare has the foal licked dry! Some say to wait for fly-less weather (less chance of fly-carried infections), others say not in the winter (because cold-hosing the site is sometimes part of the therapy---hard to do with frozen hoses). Some want to do it by the phases of the moon (sorry, I don't know the details of the theory). My favorite answer came from one of my vets---as soon as possible after the owner brings up the subject. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: WHen to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/29/2002 7:45:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WHEN is the best time to geld a colt. Janne: I talked to our vet about this on several occasions. There is the old adage that you should let the colt get his growth before gelding; so folks will wait to geld till 2 years old. According to my vet, a colt gelded earlier (say 4 months to a year - or even a bit earlier) will actually grow more than the colt left ungelded until 2 or more years. And, the younger they are the easier the surgery is on them. For me, if a colt is obviously a gelding candidate it's best to do it sooner rather than later. If a colt is possible stallion material That's another thing altogether. Look at oxen for instance. When have you ever seen a bull get as big as some of the work oxen you've seen? And most of these oxen were cut or banded within the first few days of their life. Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Redmond, OR Fjord [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/9/01 1:35:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ai is now allowed with frozen (or fresh) semen from foreign stallions as long as the stallion has been DNA typed the DNA Marker Report is on file with us. Of course all other AI rules have to be adhered to as well. That is great news! Glad the registry will now allow this! :) Pamela
Re: when to geld
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:34 PM 10/9/2001 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/9/01 8:46:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, we also need to find some way to make good stallions more accessible to every mare ownervia cooled shipped or frozen semen. Which is, of course expensive for the mare owner...even if the owners of high quality stallions do not charge high stud fees. Is there anything we can do to promote the use of frozen or cooled semen? Well there is one thing I can think of, and I direct the question to Mike. Mike? Remember a couple years back I inquired about registering a baby who was conceived via ai from a Dutch stallion? And at the time there was no system in place to register the baby? What is the current status? It would be a wonderful way to broaden the U.S. gene pool with top quality stallions from afar. Ai is now allowed with frozen (or fresh) semen from foreign stallions as long as the stallion has been DNA typed the DNA Marker Report is on file with us. Of course all other AI rules have to be adhered to as well. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/9/01 8:46:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, we also need to find some way to make good stallions more accessible to every mare ownervia cooled shipped or frozen semen. Which is, of course expensive for the mare owner...even if the owners of high quality stallions do not charge high stud fees. Is there anything we can do to promote the use of frozen or cooled semen? Well there is one thing I can think of, and I direct the question to Mike. Mike? Remember a couple years back I inquired about registering a baby who was conceived via ai from a Dutch stallion? And at the time there was no system in place to register the baby? What is the current status? It would be a wonderful way to broaden the U.S. gene pool with top quality stallions from afar. Pamela Who now isn't interested in the international stallions for my mares at this point as there are 3, 4 magnificent stallions in the U.S. that I want to have foals by, and I don't have enough mares to go around!!!
Re: when to geld
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] it's up to the MARE OWNER to have done their homework, know what is good quality and what is not, and exercise the judgement to pay a little more to breed to the quality animal. That may be when the marginal studs meet the knife. But I agree with your last statement regarding the Norwegian system of gelding late and producing quality stallions. A country with so little space must have a reason for that. Yes...but that is a tall order for a small breed in a big country. It is not just a matter of mare owners being stingy with their stud fee dollars. It requires education of the mare owner. We are pursuing that with the huge effort to do regional evaluations this year. We also need to help mare owners understand that a blue ribbon stallion is not necessarily appropriate for ANY Fjord marethat intelligent breeding is not entirely a matter of breeding quality to quality. Stallions have strengths and weaknesses. Mare owners need to have access to information about both...in the stallion and in the mare. Evaluations will help. The Record book is a huge help. A new Fjord owners handbook is an excellent step in the right direction. However, we also need to find some way to make good stallions more accessible to every mare ownervia cooled shipped or frozen semen. Which is, of course expensive for the mare owner...even if the owners of high quality stallions do not charge high stud fees. Is there anything we can do to promote the use of frozen or cooled semen? Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when to geld
This message is from: truman matz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, When the owner of a marginal stallion is unwilling to throw away all that time invested in raising a testosterone loaded animal,... that's when it's up to the MARE OWNER to have done their homework, know what is good quality and what is not, and exercise the judgement to pay a little more to breed to the quality animal. That may be when the marginal studs meet the knife. But I agree with your last statement regarding the Norwegian system of gelding late and producing quality stallions. A country with so little space must have a reason for that. Judy It was interesting at Libby. The quality of the mares presented for evaluation was, overall, better than the stallions. I think this is a function of the fact that people who let a stallion grow up and mature before making the decision to geld are less likely to want to throw away all that time invested in raising a testostone loaded animal ...who then turns out to be a little marginal as a stallion. The Norwegian system of gelding late probably does act as a better system for producing quality stallions! Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when to geld
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another item to consider is that I'm also personally aware of at least one owner who wishes with all of her heart that she had waited to geld one colt, as he turned out to be an excellent quality animal, but alas too late, he was already gelded. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a procedure for reversing castration at this time. It was interesting at Libby. The quality of the mares presented for evaluation was, overall, better than the stallions. I think this is a function of the fact that people who let a stallion grow up and mature before making the decision to geld are less likely to want to throw away all that time invested in raising a testostone loaded animal ...who then turns out to be a little marginal as a stallion. (I felt a little like this about my first husband...seems a shame to get the divorce when he was just starting to mellow out. :) Conversely, people who do not want to grow out their stud colts likely end up gelding a lot of really nice prospects. The Norwegian system of gelding late probably does act as a better system for producing quality stallions! Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when to geld
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/6/01 7:46:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe that any stallion left whole should be an outstanding individual - not just a ball-bearing horse. I am a Nazi when it comes to a sharp knife. LOL Gayle!! I agree that it's very tempting to see the dollar signs in owning a stallion (or breeding a mare for that matter). I think the NFHR Journal addressed this issue a few months back. What people forget is the time expense of keeping breeding animals and the fact that it's not a 100% gamble. The stallion might not be fertile, the mare might not take, the foal and/or mare can die during pregnancy and birthing. So many variables. Also as you say there are already too many stallions. If each stallion can cover 80 mares a year (as I've read some do in Europe, lucky guys : ) then he has a huge influence on the breed. Whereas, a mare can only bear one foal each year. So only the most true to type with great talent should be kept entire. It's interesting to see how, since the Fjord is so versatile, there are breeding programs for each type. Some more inclined towards driving, dressage, draft or what have you. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Our /A A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Fjords/A / )__~ /L /L
Re: when to geld?
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, excellent advice on gelding post-op managment (of course, your'e the vet!) One thing my vet has me do on top of what you have allready outlined is a little bit of hydrotherapy, er, sppritzing of whats left down there with a not too harsh, but steady stream of cool water for appx 5 min. Kinda keeps the crud sloughing off, and drainage open...a bit of a challenge for some folks when your horse hates to be around the hose get wet, especially THERE! but actually good training in the long run.. Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV Original Message Follows From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: when to geld? Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:20:00 -0500 This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can geld really anytime you want. The younger you geld, the easier it is on them. Weanlings hardly swell at all when gelded and don't seem to miss them much. On average you will get an inch or two more growth if you geld weanlings compared to gelding them as yearlings or 2 yr. olds. My usual protocol is that the gelding have stall rest the day that it is done. This will help keep them from starting to bleed again. Then, starting the second day for about 5-7 days it is important that the horse get lots of exercise. This is important to promote drainage and keep the swelling down. Now by exercise I mean forced exercise, 15 to 20 mins of trotting (not just hand walking) every day. I often get people calling me a couple days after a castration complaining about the horse being swollen. I ask if they have been exercising it and they say well I've got him turned out in the paddock. After biting my tongue hard I remind them politely how I said to force exercise it daily. A horse that has just been castrated is going to be sore and not want to move any more than it has to. That is why you must make it work. Steve _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: when to geld?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can geld really anytime you want. The younger you geld, the easier it is on them. Weanlings hardly swell at all when gelded and don't seem to miss them much. On average you will get an inch or two more growth if you geld weanlings compared to gelding them as yearlings or 2 yr. olds. My usual protocol is that the gelding have stall rest the day that it is done. This will help keep them from starting to bleed again. Then, starting the second day for about 5-7 days it is important that the horse get lots of exercise. This is important to promote drainage and keep the swelling down. Now by exercise I mean forced exercise, 15 to 20 mins of trotting (not just hand walking) every day. I often get people calling me a couple days after a castration complaining about the horse being swollen. I ask if they have been exercising it and they say well I've got him turned out in the paddock. After biting my tongue hard I remind them politely how I said to force exercise it daily. A horse that has just been castrated is going to be sore and not want to move any more than it has to. That is why you must make it work. Steve
RE: when to geld?
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Eunice/Mary, This is one of the interesting differences between Norway and US. In Norway the standard age to geld a horse is 3 years. This is done (I think) to allow them to build some more of the muscle that stallions have, and they will definitely look more masculine than the ones who are gelded very young. But of course it is more work to keep a stallion up to 3 years. And gelding at 1 year or so that you do in the US seems to work fine, too. They do seem to become more compact when gelded late and tall and long-legged when gelded early. Dagrun -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:18 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: when to geld? This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] hi eunice we gelded two app/arab colts when they were app 8 months old - we just turned them out when finished - it was the fall of year when flies and other insects are at a minimum - ours didn't do much running the first few days because, i suppose, of the discomfort of being gelded i have been told by several people, vets included, that gelding at an early age makes the gelding grow taller and somewhat more feminine - i would be interested if anyone else out there has heard this or has had first hand experience leaves are turning in virginia mary harvey
Re: when to geld?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] hi eunice we gelded two app/arab colts when they were app 8 months old - we just turned them out when finished - it was the fall of year when flies and other insects are at a minimum - ours didn't do much running the first few days because, i suppose, of the discomfort of being gelded i have been told by several people, vets included, that gelding at an early age makes the gelding grow taller and somewhat more feminine - i would be interested if anyone else out there has heard this or has had first hand experience leaves are turning in virginia mary harvey
