Re: [Flexradio] audio punch (SVN 1879) - K6JCA Console
I wrote here a few months ago concerning the fact that I was unable to drive the audio hard enough on my SDR1000 to see the meters kick up on my power supply and watt meter. Using Comp Cpdr settings at 2 made a considerable difference. I also noticed John (W5GI)mention the DX button on the console. Holy smokes, what a difference!! I spoke to a gent in Cuba last night on 80meters and was able to reach him with just one call with the DX button engaged. And now those meters are really kicking!! I don't believe this to be a coincidence. Thanks Flex, for listening to your customers. You folks always come through! Thanks Jeff for the new features on the console. I heard a fellow ham using your simplified recorder function yesterday and the folks on the air were really enjoying it. I understand why the backlit old style meter is gone. Hopefully it will be easier to implement when the new architecture is realized. Edwin MarzanAB2VW From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:32:03 -0600 Subject: [Flexradio] audio punch I' tweaked my equalizer settings while calling TO5JF (St. Barts). The output of my MFJ DVK was too low compaired to using the Heil ProSet mic. Duh, read the instructions and adjusted output pot to equal ProSet mic. Got the St. Barts 2 calls later. I found just the slightest uptic on 500 2K setting and 1.5 marks on 1K setting worked and sounded well. Comp and Cpdr setting 1 2 respectively.___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ _ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch (SVN 1879) - K6JCA Console
I got some audio feedback data while in a QSO this weekend. This was relatively local stuff on 75m in the evening but what I heard seems to be in agreement with the described functionality of the new DX button. Basically, when the DX button is engaged, there is considerable punch, providing a nice boost for working the DX; for casual rag chewing as was the case in this QSO, the additional boost was not needed and the audio sounded more natural without DX engaged, which is as I would have expected. All in all, sounds like a nice new feature which I hope to try out soon under DX conditions. 73, Pete N3EVL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of Edwin Marzan Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 3:08 PM To: FireBrick; FlexRadio List Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch (SVN 1879) - K6JCA Console I wrote here a few months ago concerning the fact that I was unable to drive the audio hard enough on my SDR1000 to see the meters kick up on my power supply and watt meter. Using Comp Cpdr settings at 2 made a considerable difference. I also noticed John (W5GI)mention the DX button on the console. Holy smokes, what a difference!! I spoke to a gent in Cuba last night on 80meters and was able to reach him with just one call with the DX button engaged. And now those meters are really kicking!! I don't believe this to be a coincidence. Thanks Flex, for listening to your customers. You folks always come through! ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
John, Gerald and All, John is right about the commercial broadcast like frequency response of the SDR-1000 transmitter. Instead of John's statement about the traditional amateur radios, I would like to say that in their frequency response basses are already somewhat attenuated, which means that the higher frequencies are pre-emphasized up to a certain corner frequency, beyond which the frequency response goes down rapidly. That will add the audio punch, which I like. I sincerely believe that this is also the explanation what Stig was asking for. Another additional property of the SDR-1000 decreasing the punch, is obviously the accurate feed forward control of the peak power that prevents transmitting signal going to the clipping level. As you know, software defined radios can be put to different tasks. To me it is mostly a measurement instrument like a spectrum analyzer and an excellen receiver - especially having now the Janus/Ozy connected to the radio. Sometimes I would like to use it also as an efficient ham band transmitter, but according to my (not so humble) opinion Flex has so far almost completely ignored the needs of serious DX hunters by delaying the introduction of a multichannel equalizer combined to a feed forward compressor that was already started almost four years ago by the initiation of Phil Harman. I think, it is a shame, if Flex-5000 will be entered to the marketplace without at least a promise of a quick update to this optional feature. My very best regards to all and especially to Gerald, Ahti OH2RZ On 04/06/07, John P Basilotto W5GI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It simply is in the adjustments. Traditional amateur radios have pre-emphasis in the audio, i.e there is a certain amount of bass already there. The SDR1K is flat as a pancake. When you add bass, either externally or with the built-in EQ, you are simply adding pre-emphasis. The SDR1k was designed to be flat just like a commercial broadcast transmitter. John P. Basilotto W5GI Marketing and Product Manager FlexRadio Systems 512-535-5266 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stig Rasmussen Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:28 PM To: Ahti Aintila; Dale Boresz Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Hello, please stop this. :-) I dont want any discussion around ESSB / and or DX-pileups modulation. Whats best etc. My point is only to state the fact that SDR-1000 handle bass-less modulation much less punchy than other traditional transceivers, f.example my TS-870 or IC-746PRO. Same power-meter used. Thats it! If there is an explanation I would like to hear... Stig -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Ahti Aintila [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 4. juni 2007 10:26 Til: Dale Boresz Kopi: Jim McLester; flexradio@flex-radio.biz; Stig Rasmussen Emne: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Stig and Jim, Dale is telling the plain truth, if your main interest is getting your signal through in noisy conditions and DX pileups. The basses convey very little speach information, but eat up the limited power of your transmitter. Unless you want to broadcast a Hi-Fi music program on ham bands use a good quality multi-channel equalizer to attenuate the lower frequencies of your modulation. And if you want real information carrying audio punch, you may use a PROPERLY MADE compressor or even RF clipper. However, never use compressors and/or clippers, if the the basses are not attenuated. Almost four years' time already I have tried to convince our Flex software wizards and gurus to implement an integrated audio processor that would enhance the speech signal intelligibility in noise at least as well as explained in the following ancient articles. Sorry for this repeated use of the bandwidth, but please, please, read carefully and understand these: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/speechproc.pdf My understanding is that these functions can be implemented by the DSP means much more elegantly than 30 years ago by the hardware means. I sincerely hope that some of our software experts would take my request seriously. 73, Ahti OH2RZ __ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Stig and Jim, Dale is telling the plain truth, if your main interest is getting your signal through in noisy conditions and DX pileups. The basses convey very little speach information, but eat up the limited power of your transmitter. Unless you want to broadcast a Hi-Fi music program on ham bands use a good quality multi-channel equalizer to attenuate the lower frequencies of your modulation. And if you want real information carrying audio punch, you may use a PROPERLY MADE compressor or even RF clipper. However, never use compressors and/or clippers, if the the basses are not attenuated. Almost four years' time already I have tried to convince our Flex software wizards and gurus to implement an integrated audio processor that would enhance the speech signal intelligibility in noise at least as well as explained in the following ancient articles. Sorry for this repeated use of the bandwidth, but please, please, read carefully and understand these: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/speechproc.pdf My understanding is that these functions can be implemented by the DSP means much more elegantly than 30 years ago by the hardware means. I sincerely hope that some of our software experts would take my request seriously. 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 04/06/07, Dale Boresz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stig, I think your power meter is misrepresenting your power levels. I suspect that you are not using a peak-reading power meter, and that your power meter's ballistics are such that it averages the peaks more efficiently at the low audio frequencies than it does at the midrange and upper frequencies, thereby making it appear that when you boost the low end, you're getting extra talk power. Most likely, all that you are doing is concentrating the bulk of your transmitted energy into a very narrow range of frequencies that are in fact chewing up a lot of power and inflating your meter reading, but actually reducing your 'talk power'. The panadapter of the SDR-1000 has been a very interesting tool for me, as I have noticed may stations that have as much as a 20 to 30 dB peak at the low end of their transmitted frequency range (say around 40 to 70 Hz) and are showing S9 on the meter. However, the part of their signal which is actually carrying the intelligibility is in fact averaging around S4. (S9 minus 30 dB). If the excessive peak was removed (the lower frequencies would remain - they just would not be boosted so much), the remainder of the audio passband could be amplified all that much more, such that the average of the remainder of the passband carrying intelligibility would in fact really average out to S9 instead of S4. Note though: Unless you are using a true peak reading power meter (something like a Coaxial Dynamics 83000-A) or an oscilloscope to monitor peak power, it will look as though you are transmitting at a much lower power level since the actual peaks will not be properly displayed. Attempting to drive everything harder to make the power meter read higher will result in a very distorted and severely over-driven signal. 73, Dale WA8SRA ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Hello, please stop this. :-) I dont want any discussion around ESSB / and or DX-pileups modulation. Whats best etc. My point is only to state the fact that SDR-1000 handle bass-less modulation much less punchy than other traditional transceivers, f.example my TS-870 or IC-746PRO. Same power-meter used. Thats it! If there is an explanation I would like to hear... Stig -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Ahti Aintila [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 4. juni 2007 10:26 Til: Dale Boresz Kopi: Jim McLester; flexradio@flex-radio.biz; Stig Rasmussen Emne: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Stig and Jim, Dale is telling the plain truth, if your main interest is getting your signal through in noisy conditions and DX pileups. The basses convey very little speach information, but eat up the limited power of your transmitter. Unless you want to broadcast a Hi-Fi music program on ham bands use a good quality multi-channel equalizer to attenuate the lower frequencies of your modulation. And if you want real information carrying audio punch, you may use a PROPERLY MADE compressor or even RF clipper. However, never use compressors and/or clippers, if the the basses are not attenuated. Almost four years' time already I have tried to convince our Flex software wizards and gurus to implement an integrated audio processor that would enhance the speech signal intelligibility in noise at least as well as explained in the following ancient articles. Sorry for this repeated use of the bandwidth, but please, please, read carefully and understand these: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/speechproc.pdf My understanding is that these functions can be implemented by the DSP means much more elegantly than 30 years ago by the hardware means. I sincerely hope that some of our software experts would take my request seriously. 73, Ahti OH2RZ __ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
It simply is in the adjustments. Traditional amateur radios have pre-emphasis in the audio, i.e there is a certain amount of bass already there. The SDR1K is flat as a pancake. When you add bass, either externally or with the built-in EQ, you are simply adding pre-emphasis. The SDR1k was designed to be flat just like a commercial broadcast transmitter. John P. Basilotto W5GI Marketing and Product Manager FlexRadio Systems 512-535-5266 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stig Rasmussen Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:28 PM To: Ahti Aintila; Dale Boresz Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Hello, please stop this. :-) I dont want any discussion around ESSB / and or DX-pileups modulation. Whats best etc. My point is only to state the fact that SDR-1000 handle bass-less modulation much less punchy than other traditional transceivers, f.example my TS-870 or IC-746PRO. Same power-meter used. Thats it! If there is an explanation I would like to hear... Stig -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Ahti Aintila [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 4. juni 2007 10:26 Til: Dale Boresz Kopi: Jim McLester; flexradio@flex-radio.biz; Stig Rasmussen Emne: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Stig and Jim, Dale is telling the plain truth, if your main interest is getting your signal through in noisy conditions and DX pileups. The basses convey very little speach information, but eat up the limited power of your transmitter. Unless you want to broadcast a Hi-Fi music program on ham bands use a good quality multi-channel equalizer to attenuate the lower frequencies of your modulation. And if you want real information carrying audio punch, you may use a PROPERLY MADE compressor or even RF clipper. However, never use compressors and/or clippers, if the the basses are not attenuated. Almost four years' time already I have tried to convince our Flex software wizards and gurus to implement an integrated audio processor that would enhance the speech signal intelligibility in noise at least as well as explained in the following ancient articles. Sorry for this repeated use of the bandwidth, but please, please, read carefully and understand these: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/speechproc.pdf My understanding is that these functions can be implemented by the DSP means much more elegantly than 30 years ago by the hardware means. I sincerely hope that some of our software experts would take my request seriously. 73, Ahti OH2RZ __ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Same here, recording studio guy / ham op down the street sees the same on my rig. Jim - W4YXU - Original Message - From: Stig Rasmussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch I tried much different settings with external audio processing. I mostly run ESSB with much bass. Then the talk power is really good. My watt-meter (Daiwa CN-101L)peaks around 50-60W on normal speaking, with external audio gear. If i try to get a squeeky (thin) dx-modulation, all power dissappear. If I cut the bass by 150Hz and more, lets say 200Hz the power is lost. Power peeking max 20W on my watt-meter Im watching mic-in meter an run up to 0dB, but still very little output. I dont use the COMP og CPDR because they make to much distortion, also on (today) the SVN 1215. Very strange, but not my big problem. regards, LA4WAA, Stig ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/2007 12:47 PM ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Stig, I think your power meter is misrepresenting your power levels. I suspect that you are not using a peak-reading power meter, and that your power meter's ballistics are such that it averages the peaks more efficiently at the low audio frequencies than it does at the midrange and upper frequencies, thereby making it appear that when you boost the low end, you're getting extra talk power. Most likely, all that you are doing is concentrating the bulk of your transmitted energy into a very narrow range of frequencies that are in fact chewing up a lot of power and inflating your meter reading, but actually reducing your 'talk power'. The panadapter of the SDR-1000 has been a very interesting tool for me, as I have noticed may stations that have as much as a 20 to 30 dB peak at the low end of their transmitted frequency range (say around 40 to 70 Hz) and are showing S9 on the meter. However, the part of their signal which is actually carrying the intelligibility is in fact averaging around S4. (S9 minus 30 dB). If the excessive peak was removed (the lower frequencies would remain - they just would not be boosted so much), the remainder of the audio passband could be amplified all that much more, such that the average of the remainder of the passband carrying intelligibility would in fact really average out to S9 instead of S4. Note though: Unless you are using a true peak reading power meter (something like a Coaxial Dynamics 83000-A) or an oscilloscope to monitor peak power, it will look as though you are transmitting at a much lower power level since the actual peaks will not be properly displayed. Attempting to drive everything harder to make the power meter read higher will result in a very distorted and severely over-driven signal. 73, Dale WA8SRA Jim McLester wrote: Same here, recording studio guy / ham op down the street sees the same on my rig. Jim - W4YXU - Original Message - From: Stig Rasmussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch I tried much different settings with external audio processing. I mostly run ESSB with much bass. Then the talk power is really good. My watt-meter (Daiwa CN-101L)peaks around 50-60W on normal speaking, with external audio gear. If i try to get a squeeky (thin) dx-modulation, all power dissappear. If I cut the bass by 150Hz and more, lets say 200Hz the power is lost. Power peeking max 20W on my watt-meter Im watching mic-in meter an run up to 0dB, but still very little output. I dont use the COMP og CPDR because they make to much distortion, also on (today) the SVN 1215. Very strange, but not my big problem. regards, LA4WAA, Stig ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
I'm thinking that any type of external processing will eventually be matched wth a software version. It is just a matter of time before we will all have these capabilites built in. It would be interesting to know the make and model of the unit you are using to enhance your audio. I'm using a Heil PR20 with my SDR-1000 and need to get pretty close to the mike in order to really see the needles on my watt meter kick up to the levels that I see on my other HF radios. On CW the needle really kicks hard. Straight to 100 watts. Strangely, the lights in my shack dim slightly with each CW character. I'm using a 45 amp switching power supply from MFJ which handles the current drain with no problem. I know CW and SSB are completely different animals but it seems that CW really drives the radio really hard. I'm hoping to eventually drive the audio just as hard on SSB. Eventually... Edwin Marzan AB2VW From: Chris Maukonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] audio punch Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:46:00 -0400 Interesting thread. I currently use a small mixer for my mic preamp with a nano compressor set to be a brick-wall limiting only. Works very well. By the way that is what they used to do on am broadcast stations. No compression, just limiting. Chris WA4CM -- Chris Maukonen Charley brown. You're the only Sr. Systems Programmer Person I know who can take a University of Central Floridaperfectly wonderful time of the Orlando, Fla.year like Christmas and turn it Work: (407) 823 5460 into a problem. I guess Lucy's [EMAIL PROTECTED] right. Of all the Charley Browns' in the world, you're the Charley Browniest. Linus Van Pelt All of the animals except for man know that the principle business of life is to enjoy it.-- Samuel Butler ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ _ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Edwin Marzan wrote: I'm thinking that any type of external processing will eventually be matched wth a software version. It is just a matter of time before we will all have these capabilites built in. It would be interesting to know the make and model of the unit you are using to enhance your audio. I'm using a Heil PR20 with my SDR-1000 and need to get pretty close to the mike in order to really see the needles on my watt meter kick up to the levels that I see on my other HF radios. On CW the needle really kicks hard. Straight to 100 watts. Strangely, the lights in my shack dim slightly with each CW character. I'm using a 45 amp switching power supply from MFJ which handles the current drain with no problem. I know CW and SSB are completely different animals but it seems that CW really drives the radio really hard. I'm hoping to eventually drive the audio just as hard on SSB. Eventually... Edwin Marzan AB2VW Well I currently have a Rhode NT1 mic into a Yamaha mixer with an Alesis NanoCompressor set to limiting only. Seems to work just fine.The mixer is side chained through the insert. I also have the C-R output of the mixer going to another mixer to monitor myself since I use headphones exclusively as my hearing is quite poor. WA4CM Chris -- === Chris Maukonen I'm sure if there was something Sr. Systems Programmer up there in the universe looking Univ. of Central Florida down here. They are wise enough 4000 Central Florida Blvdto stay away from us. - Grissom Orlando, Florida 407 823 5460 The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum. Thomas Paine ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Two years ago before we redid the transmitter from the ground up to produce a larger punch audio chain, and have all of the stages metered, the compander was being overdriven by stages in front of it. There was an ad hoc scaling added by me to keep it from overdriving the stages beyond it, in particular, always overdriving the ALC. Eric and I were working on control problems for the compander in the branch code and Eric did a fantastic analysis of the input and output using the Phil Harman Spread Sheet Analysis Style. I am completely sold on this. I suggest everyone go the hamsdr download pages and get all of Phil's spreadsheets. They are really instructive. Eric took a page, he plotted the input and output and in five seconds, I knew what the problem was. I removed the scale and the compander now produces peaks that are full scale. The average power should be up by at least 2 dB. That is not insignificant when the lows in the voice can easily be slightly below the noise floor. This should improve intelligibility a lot. SO Dave is right. BE CAREFUL and watch your average power. You may need to do adjustment now that this faux pas has been removed from PowerSDR and dttsp v2.0 (all versions). Alex, VE3NEA, is my favorite software author for a fee in all of amateur radio. Every day he produces something brilliant to be emulated. For example, the new Flex5000 with its ability to generate a swept oscillator in front end, will use the Rocky algorithm in a flash (with huge signals) to almost perfectly balance the 5000 (image rejection). This is based on the simple formulae Alex has given us on his Rocky SDR page. There is much to emulate in Alex's VoiceShaper. I am sure we will be doing that. http://www.dxatlas.com/ and http://www.dxatlas.com/rocky/ The receiver will be able to listen to the transmitter and make nearly perfect image rejection and carrier suppression. When asked, it will be able to do backoff and predistortion to help eliminate IMD. The transmitter and predriver can be tuned (its bias) to run everything from Class A through C. Next, with the impulse generator in the 5000, I can estimate the impulse response. I have been doing some experiments where I correlate the perfect impulse response with incoming signals to see what the type i and type ii error probabilities look like on the noise pulse subtraction front. We have to balance this with effectiveness of course. It appears that Leif Åsbrink has the balance just about right in Linrad, so we will be extracted that work as well as his spur elimination work. You may expect to see this show up in PowerSDR and dttsp v2.0 in the coming days. This is pretty exciting. Bob Dave Nancy Ridge wrote: My findings with SDR-X SVN:1209. I work 6 meter weak signal stuff. I want/need, on SSB, audio that is very penatrating but not distorted. I have a Remote Base (SDR) 17 mile from me, thanks to W4MO. I have spent many hours listening to myself, watch the Panadapter on the Remote Base and adjusting my audio for penetrating audio. I have listened on 20 meters for DX'er audio that has the characteristics that I like. What I have found is the Icom ProIII and the Yaesu FT2000 has audio that I like. This is with their compression turned on. I have tried to measure their band width with the SDR Panadapter. I have found they run about 200Hz to 2,800 Hz band width for the effect I like. I use no external processing. My setting are: Transmitter band with 200 to 2,800Hz. Leveler On, Compander on 3, Compressor on 3, Mic Gain 20, TX EQ on, setting of EQ Preamp 3rd mark down from top...top mark being #1, Low 6 down, Mid 4 down, High 1 (top mark...15db) and 160Hz Notch on. I did not think the notch would help running 200 to 2,800 Hz Band Width, but it does. I use no external processing. Using a Marshall MXL 2003 condenser Mic. The lastest change that Bob made (1209) really helped average power out with very low distortion! Thanks Bob. I have tried VE3NEA Voice Shaper software, but much prefer the SDR on board setting above. Watch your Mic Gain setting! Every rig is different, with a multitude of Mics out there. Let me know what you think after having a friend listen to your audio. 73, Dave, W9DR -- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up. Hunter S. Thompson ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Great job. Audio punch is much improved! Farnk, WA3JBT - Original Message - From: Robert McGwier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Nancy Ridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch Two years ago before we redid the transmitter from the ground up to produce a larger punch audio chain, and have all of the stages metered, the compander was being overdriven by stages in front of it. There was an ad hoc scaling added by me to keep it from overdriving the stages beyond it, in particular, always overdriving the ALC. Eric and I were working on control problems for the compander in the branch code and Eric did a fantastic analysis of the input and output using the Phil Harman Spread Sheet Analysis Style. I am completely sold on this. I suggest everyone go the hamsdr download pages and get all of Phil's spreadsheets. They are really instructive. Eric took a page, he plotted the input and output and in five seconds, I knew what the problem was. I removed the scale and the compander now produces peaks that are full scale. The average power should be up by at least 2 dB. That is not insignificant when the lows in the voice can easily be slightly below the noise floor. This should improve intelligibility a lot. SO Dave is right. BE CAREFUL and watch your average power. You may need to do adjustment now that this faux pas has been removed from PowerSDR and dttsp v2.0 (all versions). Alex, VE3NEA, is my favorite software author for a fee in all of amateur radio. Every day he produces something brilliant to be emulated. For example, the new Flex5000 with its ability to generate a swept oscillator in front end, will use the Rocky algorithm in a flash (with huge signals) to almost perfectly balance the 5000 (image rejection). This is based on the simple formulae Alex has given us on his Rocky SDR page. There is much to emulate in Alex's VoiceShaper. I am sure we will be doing that. http://www.dxatlas.com/ and http://www.dxatlas.com/rocky/ The receiver will be able to listen to the transmitter and make nearly perfect image rejection and carrier suppression. When asked, it will be able to do backoff and predistortion to help eliminate IMD. The transmitter and predriver can be tuned (its bias) to run everything from Class A through C. Next, with the impulse generator in the 5000, I can estimate the impulse response. I have been doing some experiments where I correlate the perfect impulse response with incoming signals to see what the type i and type ii error probabilities look like on the noise pulse subtraction front. We have to balance this with effectiveness of course. It appears that Leif Åsbrink has the balance just about right in Linrad, so we will be extracted that work as well as his spur elimination work. You may expect to see this show up in PowerSDR and dttsp v2.0 in the coming days. This is pretty exciting. Bob Dave Nancy Ridge wrote: My findings with SDR-X SVN:1209. I work 6 meter weak signal stuff. I want/need, on SSB, audio that is very penatrating but not distorted. I have a Remote Base (SDR) 17 mile from me, thanks to W4MO. I have spent many hours listening to myself, watch the Panadapter on the Remote Base and adjusting my audio for penetrating audio. I have listened on 20 meters for DX'er audio that has the characteristics that I like. What I have found is the Icom ProIII and the Yaesu FT2000 has audio that I like. This is with their compression turned on. I have tried to measure their band width with the SDR Panadapter. I have found they run about 200Hz to 2,800 Hz band width for the effect I like. I use no external processing. My setting are: Transmitter band with 200 to 2,800Hz. Leveler On, Compander on 3, Compressor on 3, Mic Gain 20, TX EQ on, setting of EQ Preamp 3rd mark down from top...top mark being #1, Low 6 down, Mid 4 down, High 1 (top mark...15db) and 160Hz Notch on. I did not think the notch would help running 200 to 2,800 Hz Band Width, but it does. I use no external processing. Using a Marshall MXL 2003 condenser Mic. The lastest change that Bob made (1209) really helped average power out with very low distortion! Thanks Bob. I have tried VE3NEA Voice Shaper software, but much prefer the SDR on board setting above. Watch your Mic Gain setting! Every rig is different, with a multitude of Mics out there. Let me know what you think after having a friend listen to your audio. 73, Dave, W9DR -- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up. Hunter S. Thompson ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
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Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
My experience of listening to the SDR1000 on the air is also that there is no audio punch. I keep a sked with a ZS every Friday over quite a difficult polar path. He has two radios, one an old analogue rig with an RF clipper, and the other an SDR1000. When the path is especially difficult, or there is some auroral flutter, the SDR is almost unusable. I have raised this issue with the SDR software guys, asking if/when there is going to be an RF clipper included as an option. Reactions have been mixed. One guy said he appreciated that RF clipping was the way to go, but the other is not convinced. I am intending to replace my ageing analogue rig with an HPSDR, but will not put in on the air on SSB until the Tx audio issue is resolved. I was hoping that somebody else would write the clipper software, but it doesn't look like that will happen in the short term. I will therefore have to have a go myself. The problem is that, although I have written some C in the past, software development has left me behind a tad, and it will take a while to catch up. I have, however ordered Visual Studio, and when it arrives I will start my re-learning process. I DO intend to have an RF clipper in my HPSDR, even if it takes a while. If someone else comes up with one in the mean time, so much the better! 73, Greg, ZL3IX ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Hi for all interested increase the audio performance in his SDR1K, please look at this VE3NEA software: http://www.dxatlas.com/vshaper/ I use it with the on board audio of my P4, placing the out to input of my FA66, with outstanding performance: EQ/RFclipper/Gate. If you have Firebox, you can use MIC2 input, 5/6 output route to MIC1 input. You can use VAC, but some latency is sure. Speaking at normal level on a few Euro mic, I get more punch than the audio path of PowerSDR, without distorsions or noise. The CPU usage is very low (3/5%), ASIO support and real time. Alex has write a great piece of software for this branch. 73 Beppe IK3VIG ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
I am in agreement with you Greg as far as the clipper goes. Some of the other posts so far are saying to use external gear. That's ok for the audio boys but an RF Clipper is a different animal. I don't believe anyone is manufacturing an external unit anymore. I do believe that a good RF Clipper/Processor is an essential feature that must be included IN a rig. Just like RIT, etc. I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. - Original Message - From: Greg - ZL3IX [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:41 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.flex-radio.biz/pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20 070531/fef9cc03/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Frank Mayer wrote: I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. Hi Frank, Indeed it can. In my previous employment we used one that was written in DSP assembler for the 56002 (not by me unfortunately, although I did give the algorithm inputs). It was very effective. 73, Greg ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Hi Greg et al, FINALLY! Ihave been waiting for 4 years that other flexers start get interested. As an old hardware man I have been talking about RF clipping alot. I want to admit that the time of this method is over already during this SDR era, but that function in the more sophisticated software form was still missing until Alex, VE3NEA, made his Voiceshaper. Still, again I want to give these links that help to understand why we weak signal fans are missing the function of this brutal RF clipper and look forward that Alex's Voiceshaper will be an integral part of all SDR equipment. Here are the links: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 31/05/07, Greg - ZL3IX [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Mayer wrote: I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. Hi Frank, Indeed it can. In my previous employment we used one that was written in DSP assembler for the 56002 (not by me unfortunately, although I did give the algorithm inputs). It was very effective. 73, Greg ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Hi, Well, it seems to me that if VE3NEA can do it, then the FlexRadio software engineers can too. I do have a FireBox. so I will try it per below. 73, Chas W1CG At 04:30 AM 5/31/2007, Giuseppe Campana wrote: Hi for all interested increase the audio performance in his SDR1K, please look at this VE3NEA software: http://www.dxatlas.com/vshaper/ I use it with the on board audio of my P4, placing the out to input of my FA66, with outstanding performance: EQ/RFclipper/Gate. If you have Firebox, you can use MIC2 input, 5/6 output route to MIC1 input. You can use VAC, but some latency is sure. Speaking at normal level on a few Euro mic, I get more punch than the audio path of PowerSDR, without distorsions or noise. The CPU usage is very low (3/5%), ASIO support and real time. Alex has write a great piece of software for this branch. 73 Beppe IK3VIG ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
Chas, Of course the Flex Radio programmers can do it. But, I am certain that just like software projects at my soon-to-be former job, there is a very large list of things they want to do a list of things that MUST be done 1st to meet a deadline, such as getting the code ready for the Flex-5000. Make certain that your idea is in the feature list wait. With FlexRadio, Santa comes many times a year, not just at Christmas. 73, Ray, K9DUR -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.flex-radio.biz/pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20070531/9a49e326/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Thank God ...I thought I was the only one that thought Comp/Compndr was way lacking! (as well as the ANF). I know alota folks don't need or want anything other than Communication Audio...and after talking with 100's of hams on the air...I see their point. It's usually wasted on people listening at 2.4 thru a 4 inch speaker. I use a 1/3 Octave Ashley EQ and a DBX 266 compressor with a Presonis Tubepre etc. but Wished there was something in software to run instead. I never got the VShaper to run correctly but will try again :( I hate Latency. I agree that when I switch to the 746Pro or 7000 everyone says it's much louder. I continue and continue to try and reproduce the Punch of the Icom and have almost succeeded ...with alota effort :) It's that the flex has almost too much dynamic range and needs a good comp to slam it up against the wall for certain band conditions. (noisy low bands for me) Please keep us informed of any progress you folks make on the voice processing front...It's the main reason I bought a Flex. There ARE some of us watching and waiting for a better EQ,Comp, Dwn Expander etc. flex on and tnx steve kw5tx Ahti Aintila wrote: Hi Greg et al, FINALLY! Ihave been waiting for 4 years that other flexers start get interested. As an old hardware man I have been talking about RF clipping alot. I want to admit that the time of this method is over already during this SDR era, but that function in the more sophisticated software form was still missing until Alex, VE3NEA, made his Voiceshaper. Still, again I want to give these links that help to understand why we weak signal fans are missing the function of this brutal RF clipper and look forward that Alex's Voiceshaper will be an integral part of all SDR equipment. Here are the links: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 31/05/07, Greg - ZL3IX [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Mayer wrote: I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. Hi Frank, Indeed it can. In my previous employment we used one that was written in DSP assembler for the 56002 (not by me unfortunately, although I did give the algorithm inputs). It was very effective. 73, Greg ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Since March of 06, there has been an enhancement request to support VST effects audio plug-ins, of which there are thousands (free and not free) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology You can blog the enhnacement at: http://support.flex-radio.com/ReviewBug.aspx?id=125it=F And maybe it will get a status change from submitted to plan to implimnet. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Frank Mayer Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch At 07:12 PM 5/30/2007, Larry W8ER wrote: Frank ... everyone that I know that is serious about audio and owns a Flex is using external processing for exactly the reason that you are inquiring about. I have been absolutely unable to get close to the performance of a simple external hardware preamp and compressor with the built in software processing. So the short is .. yes your experience is right on. I have to add however, that I don't consider it a problem. It would be nice to not need to use external gear but it doesn't bother me that I do! I would speculate that since this sort of function is very popular for other uses (e.g. the music biz), folks are figuring you could buy some software to implement it (or find freeware), and then pipe the audio output to the PowerSDR input using VAC or something similar. For audio processing this is a MUCH more appealing model, IF the needed processing is available somewhere else. It keeps PowerSDR less cluttered. I'd rather the PowerSDR developers spend their time on radio specific features (like calibration and RF performance related things.. noise blankers, etc) rather than trying to build ever better audio equalizers, multiband compressors, or gods forbid, flangers, phasers, fuzzboxes, wah pedal emulators, reverb, etc. I don't know the specifics of what's available, but I have several friends working with fairly sophisticated recording studios and a LOT of signal processing in software (albeit most on Macs). Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Larry W8ER wrote: Frank ... everyone that I know that is serious about audio and owns a Flex is using external processing for exactly the reason that you are inquiring about. I have been absolutely unable to get close to the performance of a simple external hardware preamp and compressor with the built in software processing. So the short is .. yes your experience is right on. I have to add however, that I don't consider it a problem. It would be nice to not need to use external gear but it doesn't bother me that I do! --Larry W8ER Frank Mayer wrote: I have had my SDR-1000 for about 6 months now and I am very happy with it for the most part. After all is said and done the only criticism that I really have of the rig is the performance of the Compressor. What is this function actually? I have tried all versions of the Power SDR software and I just can't seem to get the compression performance that I am used to with my conventional transceivers. If I increase the level of compression to where I approach the level of average power that I am used to, the audio is not clear but muffled. The unprocessed audio with the SDR has been exceptional but the only way I can get the rig to approach the punch and talk power of my other rigs is to use my Ten-Tec 234 speech processor with the SDR. Using the external unit my audio is indistinguishable from a FT-1000D or TS-870 both using 10db of compression. I just cannot duplicate this with the software. I wonder if the guys at Flex realize that the processing is lacking? If not it may never improve. If so I'll wait patiently for an improvement. Frank, WA3JBT. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.flex-radio.biz/pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20070530/e78785e2/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ I've been running my SDR 1000 for 2 years with a Heil HC4, mic gain 63, compression 3, compansion 2 or 3, 3000hz wide, and I have the same if not better talk power than my Rice boxes. You need to go back and try this set up with any mic. Only the mic gain will change. Jerry ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
At 01:33 AM 5/31/2007, Frank Mayer wrote: I am in agreement with you Greg as far as the clipper goes. Some of the other posts so far are saying to use external gear. That's ok for the audio boys but an RF Clipper is a different animal. I don't believe anyone is manufacturing an external unit anymore. I do believe that a good RF Clipper/Processor is an essential feature that must be included IN a rig. Just like RIT, etc. I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. Yes, it can. Assuming that you want to generate a signal with a bandwidth less than, say, 20 kHz, the SDR1000 can generate it. All it takes is the software, and to do that,you have to have a good mathematical description of what you want. The problem (I suspect) is that describing exactly what it is you want is a bit tricky. Obviously, it's not just an audio clipper (or you'd have already done that), so what you really are depending on is some sort of filtered non-linearity somewhere in the if/rf chain, and that doesn't necessarily have a convenient description. In particular, it's probably very radio mfr/model dependent. (sort of like musicians preferring a particular type of distortion and sound in their guitar amp) Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
I guess Yaesu was one of the pioneers of RF speech processing way back in the early 70's with the Ft-101 series of transceivers. The way that these RF Processors work is they convert the audio from the mic input to RF with a SSB generator. They use clipping at the RF level and filter the harmonics there which is very easy. Then they convert this SSB signal back to audio with a detector. All the older vintage analog transceivers used this method (Kenwood TS940, 850, Yaesu Ft-990, etc.) Obviously this can be done in DSP because all the new rigs do so with good results (Orion, FT-1000 series, Kenwood TS-870, Icom ProIII) - Original Message - From: Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Frank Mayer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg - ZL3IX [EMAIL PROTECTED]; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch At 01:33 AM 5/31/2007, Frank Mayer wrote: I am in agreement with you Greg as far as the clipper goes. Some of the other posts so far are saying to use external gear. That's ok for the audio boys but an RF Clipper is a different animal. I don't believe anyone is manufacturing an external unit anymore. I do believe that a good RF Clipper/Processor is an essential feature that must be included IN a rig. Just like RIT, etc. I wonder if this type of circuit CAN be written in software. Yes, it can. Assuming that you want to generate a signal with a bandwidth less than, say, 20 kHz, the SDR1000 can generate it. All it takes is the software, and to do that,you have to have a good mathematical description of what you want. The problem (I suspect) is that describing exactly what it is you want is a bit tricky. Obviously, it's not just an audio clipper (or you'd have already done that), so what you really are depending on is some sort of filtered non-linearity somewhere in the if/rf chain, and that doesn't necessarily have a convenient description. In particular, it's probably very radio mfr/model dependent. (sort of like musicians preferring a particular type of distortion and sound in their guitar amp) Jim, W6RMK -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Frank, I'm no software man, but I suppose that it can be done. 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 31/05/07, Frank Mayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not familiar with the voice shaper. Is this supposed to be incorporated into the SDR? - Original Message - From: Ahti Aintila [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greg - ZL3IX [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:26 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch Hi Greg et al, FINALLY! Ihave been waiting for 4 years that other flexers start get interested. As an old hardware man I have been talking about RF clipping alot. I want to admit that the time of this method is over already during this SDR era, but that function in the more sophisticated software form was still missing until Alex, VE3NEA, made his Voiceshaper. Still, again I want to give these links that help to understand why we weak signal fans are missing the function of this brutal RF clipper and look forward that Alex's Voiceshaper will be an integral part of all SDR equipment. Here are the links: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/ahti/sdr-1000/filtclip.pdf 73, Ahti OH2RZ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
At 08:28 AM 5/31/2007, Frank Mayer wrote: I guess Yaesu was one of the pioneers of RF speech processing way back in the early 70's with the Ft-101 series of transceivers. The way that these RF Processors work is they convert the audio from the mic input to RF with a SSB generator. They use clipping at the RF level and filter the harmonics there which is very easy. One can do the same at baseband, theoretically. I suspect, though, that the clipping is not a hard clip, but a soft clip, determined by the saturation characteristics of the amplifiers. And that might be a bit tricky to specify. Especially since what sounds good is subjective. (Just like tube distortion simulation in solid state DSP guitar amps) Then they convert this SSB signal back to audio with a detector. All the older vintage analog transceivers used this method (Kenwood TS940, 850, Yaesu Ft-990, etc.) Obviously this can be done in DSP because all the new rigs do so with good results (Orion, FT-1000 series, Kenwood TS-870, Icom ProIII) And for all those rigs, the exact signal processing isn't published, and I'd be willing to bet it's not something simple. It's not going to be y(i) = bpfilter(max(1,min(-1,x(i))) But something a bit more sophisticated.. Maybe someone who's analyzed the clipping/compression behavior of those rigs can weigh in with speculation (or knowledge) about what they actually do implement. Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
If you have not looked at VE3NEA Vshaper, you should ! It is instructive to just play with it outside of the SDR. It includes a build in recorder loop that lets you listen to the result as you adjust the setting ( both with and without QRN QRM ). With the SDR, you can select the Vshaper input to come from you current SDR mic input (i.e. Input 3/4 on the D44 sound card) and route the output to either your PC speaker or thru VAC to the SDR. Yes, there is latency coming in through the SDR VAC input but I am convinced that the latency is within the VAC input of the SDR and not in VAC itself. AL, K0VM ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
I would like to jump in and ask about real-world measurements. From what I hear on the air, most guys rely on the *totally subjective* assessment of another Ham to tell them about their audio. This is great if the Receiving Ham is a talented audiophile but what about his *hearing*, his *speakers* or *headphones*, his *receiver* and his *ears* ? - So instead, how about using the *SWEEP* function in the PowerSDR *TEST* tab to generate a known range of frequencies from 50hz to 4000hz (or your upper limit is) and have the other ham make a screen dump of his panadapter so you can actually SEE WHAT HE IS RECEIVING? - Perhaps some enterprising and talented Flexer can setup a UltraVNC server to show us his Rx panadapter live so we can contact his station and see the full effect of COMPRESSION, COMPANDERS, EQUALIZERS, and outboard equipment. - Would the sweep in any way simulate a real voice? or does the test need to be more sophisticated? - Or course when the FLEX-5000 is released, it will display a real world picture of both Tx and Rx simultaneously using the new FULL DUPLEX capabilities. Then you can see, hear, and adjust in real time and know exactly what each adjustment is accomplishing. - tnx for reading, BK de Ken N9VV ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] audio punch
I use another receiver with headphones...mostly a 746Pro and when I wanna hear what my other radios sound like...I use the flex with headphones as the receiver as someone said earlier today Good is Subjective ... Its chevys and fords man steve kw5tx Ken N9VV wrote: I would like to jump in and ask about real-world measurements. From what I hear on the air, most guys rely on the *totally subjective* assessment of another Ham to tell them about their audio. This is great if the Receiving Ham is a talented audiophile but what about his *hearing*, his *speakers* or *headphones*, his *receiver* and his *ears* ? - So instead, how about using the *SWEEP* function in the PowerSDR *TEST* tab to generate a known range of frequencies from 50hz to 4000hz (or your upper limit is) and have the other ham make a screen dump of his panadapter so you can actually SEE WHAT HE IS RECEIVING? - Perhaps some enterprising and talented Flexer can setup a UltraVNC server to show us his Rx panadapter live so we can contact his station and see the full effect of COMPRESSION, COMPANDERS, EQUALIZERS, and outboard equipment. - Would the sweep in any way simulate a real voice? or does the test need to be more sophisticated? - Or course when the FLEX-5000 is released, it will display a real world picture of both Tx and Rx simultaneously using the new FULL DUPLEX capabilities. Then you can see, hear, and adjust in real time and know exactly what each adjustment is accomplishing. - tnx for reading, BK de Ken N9VV ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
Frank ... everyone that I know that is serious about audio and owns a Flex is using external processing for exactly the reason that you are inquiring about. I have been absolutely unable to get close to the performance of a simple external hardware preamp and compressor with the built in software processing. So the short is .. yes your experience is right on. I have to add however, that I don't consider it a problem. It would be nice to not need to use external gear but it doesn't bother me that I do! --Larry W8ER Frank Mayer wrote: I have had my SDR-1000 for about 6 months now and I am very happy with it for the most part. After all is said and done the only criticism that I really have of the rig is the performance of the Compressor. What is this function actually? I have tried all versions of the Power SDR software and I just can't seem to get the compression performance that I am used to with my conventional transceivers. If I increase the level of compression to where I approach the level of average power that I am used to, the audio is not clear but muffled. The unprocessed audio with the SDR has been exceptional but the only way I can get the rig to approach the punch and talk power of my other rigs is to use my Ten-Tec 234 speech processor with the SDR. Using the external unit my audio is indistinguishable from a FT-1000D or TS-870 both using 10db of compression. I just cannot duplicate this with the software. I wonder if the guys at Flex realize that the processing is lacking? If not it may never improve. If so I'll wait patiently for an improvement. Frank, WA3JBT. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.flex-radio.biz/pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20070530/e78785e2/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Audio Punch
At 07:12 PM 5/30/2007, Larry W8ER wrote: Frank ... everyone that I know that is serious about audio and owns a Flex is using external processing for exactly the reason that you are inquiring about. I have been absolutely unable to get close to the performance of a simple external hardware preamp and compressor with the built in software processing. So the short is .. yes your experience is right on. I have to add however, that I don't consider it a problem. It would be nice to not need to use external gear but it doesn't bother me that I do! I would speculate that since this sort of function is very popular for other uses (e.g. the music biz), folks are figuring you could buy some software to implement it (or find freeware), and then pipe the audio output to the PowerSDR input using VAC or something similar. For audio processing this is a MUCH more appealing model, IF the needed processing is available somewhere else. It keeps PowerSDR less cluttered. I'd rather the PowerSDR developers spend their time on radio specific features (like calibration and RF performance related things.. noise blankers, etc) rather than trying to build ever better audio equalizers, multiband compressors, or gods forbid, flangers, phasers, fuzzboxes, wah pedal emulators, reverb, etc. I don't know the specifics of what's available, but I have several friends working with fairly sophisticated recording studios and a LOT of signal processing in software (albeit most on Macs). Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
