Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Larry Loen]

Jim Lux wrote:

>At 04:00 PM 1/2/2007, Frank Brickle wrote:
>  
>
>>On 1/2/07, James Courtier-Dutton 
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I use Microsoft Word's equation editor, reviewing, and cross
>>>referencing capabilities a lot, and open office is incompatible for
>>>some reason. I haven't dug into why, but since I need to generate MS
>>>Word documents for others to review and work on, I'm not likely to
>>>change, nor am I interested in spending lots of time figuring out how
>>>to make it compatible.
>>>  
>>>
>>I have no idea on this one, so you might have a point here.
>>
>>
>>I frequently use OO for my wife to "fix" Microsoft Office documents 
>>that get wedged on account of M$Office bugs and version incompatibilities.
>>
>>But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters 
>>and short articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.
>>
>>
>
>On punch cards, I'm sure... (after you've graduated from NROFF and paper tape)
>
>
>Jim 
>-- next part --
>  
>

No,  I'm with Frank on this one.  IME, 99 per cent of all Word documents 
I have ever read could have bee prepared on Wordpad (aka write).  The 
rest are complex enough to profit from a real typesetting system.  There 
are limits to the GUI paradigm.  You can "wimp out" and use LaTex if you 
like.  For complicated documents, either is actually easier.



Larry  WO0Z




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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[petervn]

Only 2 rows of lamps?
My PDP8 has 5 rows of lamps, (Lost the TTY, does not run anymore)
a picture (not mine, I do'n have the glass box, but metal)
www.cedmagic.com/history/dec-pdp-8.html 
<http://www.cedmagic.com/history/dec-pdp-8.html> 
 
Software Defined Radio... with 8k 12 bits words (if you had a 4k mem 
extension)???
 
7402;-) pa0pvn
 
groeten Peter
petervn(a)hetnet.nl <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  ; pa0pvn(a)hetnet.nl 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ;
pa0pvn(a)gmail.com ; pa0pvn(a)amsat.org .
 



Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens Mike Naruta
Verzonden: wo 3-1-2007 12:51
Aan: Jim Lux; FlexRadio
Onderwerp: Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?



Woosies used card decks and punched paper tape.

Real Men use the toggle switches and lamps on
the console.  One row for address and one row
for data.

I could do the binary DEC bootstrap loader in my
sleep, and often did.  Got so I could tell what
was running just by the pattern in the lights.

Then again, I could tell when someone on RTTY
was sending CQ or RYs just by the sound.
850 Hertz shift, of course.


To the Good Old Days.  May they never return.



Mike - AA8K



Jim Lux wrote:

>>
>> But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters
>> and short articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.
>
> On punch cards, I'm sure... (after you've graduated from NROFF and paper tape)
>
>
> Jim

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Mike Naruta]

Woosies used card decks and punched paper tape.

Real Men use the toggle switches and lamps on
the console.  One row for address and one row
for data.

I could do the binary DEC bootstrap loader in my
sleep, and often did.  Got so I could tell what
was running just by the pattern in the lights.

Then again, I could tell when someone on RTTY
was sending CQ or RYs just by the sound.
850 Hertz shift, of course.


To the Good Old Days.  May they never return.



Mike - AA8K



Jim Lux wrote:

>>
>> But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters 
>> and short articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.
> 
> On punch cards, I'm sure... (after you've graduated from NROFF and paper tape)
> 
> 
> Jim 

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Simon Brown \(HB9DRV\)]

- Original Message - 

> ... when it gets right down to it, Windows is more of a
> "Presentation Manager" than a real operating system, and so, very UI
> centric, not OS services centric.

Windows NT / 2K / XP / VISTA is based on OpenVMS, if you look at the way the 
operating system is designed you will see this.

http://www.businessreviewonline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/index.html#81

For more background Google for Windows, VMS and Dave Cutler.

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=97&ArticleID=4494

" And now...the rest of the story: I'll take you on a short tour of NT's 
lineage, which leads back to Digital and its VMS OS. Most of NT's lead 
developers, including VMS's chief architect, came from Digital, and their 
background heavily influenced NT's development."

VMS was and IMHO still is the finest server system available today.

I also used RSTS with the PDP-11, started with punched cards and paper tape!

Simon Brown, HB9DRV 


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

Jim Lux wrote:

>> But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters and
>> short articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.
> 
> On punch cards, I'm sure... (after you've graduated from NROFF and paper
> tape)

Nah. Scribed directly onto DECtape with magnetized needles.

Don't laugh, though. Did you ever see a description of how the RCA
Mark II Synthesizer had to be programmed? It tells you something
that people abandoned it and went *back* to splicing 1/4" tape
with razor blades.

73
Frank
AB2KT

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Jim Lux]

At 04:00 PM 1/2/2007, Frank Brickle wrote:
>On 1/2/07, James Courtier-Dutton 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I use Microsoft Word's equation editor, reviewing, and cross
> > referencing capabilities a lot, and open office is incompatible for
> > some reason. I haven't dug into why, but since I need to generate MS
> > Word documents for others to review and work on, I'm not likely to
> > change, nor am I interested in spending lots of time figuring out how
> > to make it compatible.
>I have no idea on this one, so you might have a point here.
>
>
>I frequently use OO for my wife to "fix" Microsoft Office documents 
>that get wedged on account of M$Office bugs and version incompatibilities.
>
>But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters 
>and short articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.

On punch cards, I'm sure... (after you've graduated from NROFF and paper tape)


Jim 
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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

On 1/2/07, James Courtier-Dutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > I use Microsoft Word's equation editor, reviewing, and cross
> > referencing capabilities a lot, and open office is incompatible for
> > some reason. I haven't dug into why, but since I need to generate MS
> > Word documents for others to review and work on, I'm not likely to
> > change, nor am I interested in spending lots of time figuring out how
> > to make it compatible.
> I have no idea on this one, so you might have a point here.


I frequently use OO for my wife to "fix" Microsoft Office documents that get
wedged on account of M$Office bugs and version incompatibilities.

But really, if you use either OO or MO for anything beyond letters and short
articles, you deserve whatever misery you get. Real Men use TeX.

;-)

73
Frank
AB2KT
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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Jim Lux wrote:
> I call BS. It is a royal pain just to reinstall your existing 
> applications on a new computer, staying in the Windows world. There 
> are lots and lots of Windows only applications out there that are 
> quite useful, if not necessary.
>

> For instance, I use 4NEC2 as a front end for NEC analysis. It's not 
> available for Linux, and I'm not particularly eager to go back to 
> writing and reading bare NEC decks.
Works fine here in Linux using a tool called wine. It lets you use your 
"must have" windows applications under linux, until a better alternative 
presents inself.

>
> I use Microsoft Word's equation editor, reviewing, and cross 
> referencing capabilities a lot, and open office is incompatible for 
> some reason. I haven't dug into why, but since I need to generate MS 
> Word documents for others to review and work on, I'm not likely to 
> change, nor am I interested in spending lots of time figuring out how 
> to make it compatible.
I have no idea on this one, so you might have a point here.

>
> What about hot-syncing my Treo with my PC?
Works fine. Using a bluetooth radio link to do the sync.

>
> What about support for my Tablet PC? I'd hate to give up my stylus and 
> the ability to take notes on a tablet.
Works fine in Linux. Linux support touch screens and the like.

>
> Then, there's those horrible, but necessary, websites that are IE 
> only. All too many manufacturers of components put their data out with 
> slick IE only web interfaces. Why, I do not know (just ignorance on 
> their part, or they hire a low budget web developer who is MS centric).
This may or may not be true. I have just never found such a site yet.
>
>
> What about compatiblity with my co-workers? I work somewhere where we 
> have a variety of OSes (Win, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc.) and people 
> that are non-Windows users tend to wind up having a Windows machine 
> too, just to interoperate. (This just moves the pain of interoperation 
> to just one person, rather than inflicting it on many people) The 
> occasional incompatibility between Powerpoint on the Mac and 
> Powerpoint on the PC alone is a pain, and they're both MS products.
There are incompatibilities between MS Office 2000 and MS Office 2003 
both on the Windows platform, so you cannot really use this complaint 
against Linux.

>
>
> So, if you are running in your own isolated world, you can probably 
> find functional equivalents for most applications that are Linux 
> compatible, and your work can go along just as well or better. 
> However, many people are in a Windows environment at work, and would 
> just as soon use the same applications at home as at work, especially 
> if their life isn't wrapped up in computers and they derive no special 
> thrill from being multi-OS-lingual.
>
> So, I call BS on the claim of "no significant pain to move from 
> Windows to Linux". It just ain't so, which means that if you want 
> people to move, you have to provide not only comparable functionality, 
> but also make the move to Linux (and back to Windows) relatively 
> painless. It's the move back that is especially important, because you 
> may find that Linux just isn't going to work for you.
>
You clearly have your view, and I have mine, I guess we can call this 
quits and end this thread. :-)
>
> Jim, W6RMK
>


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Jim Lux]

At 12:13 PM 1/2/2007, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>Jim Lux wrote:
>>Sure. BUT PowerSDR is a product from a company that presumably 
>>wishes to stay in business and has to sell product to do so (unless 
>>Gerald is going to altruistically support ham radio into the 
>>future..).  And for the next few years at least (and probably well 
>>into the next decade) the dominant platform (in terms of percentage 
>>of computers) is going to be windows (just out of inertia, and 
>>because MS can spend a gargantuan sum of money to keep it that 
>>way).  Out of the hundreds,if not thousands, of SDR1000 owners, I 
>>suspect a very small percentage participate on this list, and there 
>>are a huge number of people just appreciating the SDR1000/PowerSDR 
>>combination as a high performance "black box appliance".  And, 
>>statistically, those people are more likely to be running Windows.
>
>I don't believe Flex-radio sell the PowerSDR at all. It is open 
>source and GPL. Flex-radio sell the Flexradio HARDWARE, and use 
>PowerSDR as a tool to do that.

yes, that's right.


>  The better PowerSDR is, the more Flexradio HARDWARE they will 
> sell. They let other people in the open source community improve 
> the software with them and that results in better, more reliable 
> software, and therefore more Flexradio hardware sales.

yes.. but the OS platform those folks develop for determines the size 
of the pool of potential buyers of the SDR1000 hardware (and its 
successors).  Take an extreme example.  Say I developed a 
miraculously wonderful version of PowerSDR, but it runs ONLY on 
PDP-11 with an attached FPS coprocessor driving a Tektronix 4014 
graphics terminal.  Even the fact that it's written in C and 
opensourced wouldn't drive many sales of the SDR1000, because very, 
very few people have such a hardware configuration.  And, they 
wouldn't be likely to go out and get the hardware just to run my 
fabulous software (heck, they probably wouldn't take it if were offered free).

The same applies, but to a much less degree, to software that 
supports the SDR1000.  No matter how wonderful the Linux version, 
unless you can also do all the other stuff you do with Windows, and 
get it without suffering pain, most people won't switch over.  People 
like their existing word processor client, they like their email, 
they like their printer drivers, etc.  You'd have to give them a very 
convincing total package (not just PowerSDR) to get them to switch.

A "live CD" style scheme (like Knoppix) might work, especially if a 
way were provided to update the PowerSDR image. That is, you'd boot 
off your SDR1000 CD, and it would use the latest version of software 
stored on your hard disk (which you might have updated using an OS 
independent web browser interface).  Of course, if Windows moves to 
an encrypted disk structure, it would cause problems.  But, even 
then, you're basically converting your PC into a dedicated system 
while you're playing radio.  No cut and paste from an email or 
document into a PSK31 program, etc.  So, you've taken a powerful 
multitasking computer and turned it into a special purpose dedicated 
box.  Well, then, why not just embed a single purpose diskless PC 
into the radio.







>>The vocal minority, interested in tinkering, etc., for whom open 
>>source is a godsend, probably has a higher percentage of Linux 
>>users.  Further, just because they're willing to tinker, they're 
>>also willing to suffer some amount of pain to shift from Windows to 
>>Linux  (and, yes, there is significant pain in doing so, 
>>notwithstanding how congenial the environment is after the changeover).
>
>I don't believe there is significant pain to shift from Windows to 
>Linux. Microsoft might want users to think that, but it really is not true.

I call BS.  It is a royal pain just to reinstall your existing 
applications on a new computer, staying in the Windows world.  There 
are lots and lots of Windows only applications out there that are 
quite useful, if not necessary.

For instance, I use 4NEC2 as a front end for NEC analysis.  It's not 
available for Linux, and I'm not particularly eager to go back to 
writing and reading bare NEC decks.

I use Microsoft Word's equation editor, reviewing, and cross 
referencing capabilities a lot, and open office is incompatible for 
some reason.  I haven't dug into why, but since I need to generate MS 
Word documents for others to review and work on, I'm not likely to 
change, nor am I interested in spending lots of time figuring out how 
to make it compatible.

What about hot-syncing my Treo with my PC?

What about support for my Tablet PC?  I'd hate to give up my stylus 
and the ability to take notes on a tablet.

Then, there's those horrible, but necessary, websites that are IE 
only.  All too many manufacturers of components put their data out 
with slick IE only web interfaces.  Why, I do not know (just 
ignorance on their part, or they hire a low budget web developer who 

Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Duane - N9DG]

--- Jim Lux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I actually think the optimum long range solution is a Linux
> embedded 
> PC in the radio box talking over ethernet to the UI running
> on 
> Windows (or whatever).  Then, the radio hackers get a nice
> open 
> source platform to tinker in (and it's easier to do that
> kind of 
> thing in Linux than Windows).  The "all I want is a radio"
> folks get 
> what they want, without having to buy a whole 'nother
> computer that 
> then has to be managed. (the embedded Linux box is a
> stripped down 
> distro, etc.)  And the Windows UI folks get to do all the
> nice 
> Windows UI things, including coexisting with other ham
> radio and 
> other software.

This is pretty much the same conclusion that I keep coming
back to. Although I don't think that the SDR-1000's PC
necessarily need be embedded.

FWIW I drive my SDR-1000 (& other SDR experiments) dedicated
XP machine 90% of the time via VNC from my main 3 monitor W2K
 system even though the SDR-1000's PC is on the same KVM with
the W2K box.

Duane
N9DG
 


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[n4xwe]

Hello Everyone,

Over the past couple of days I have heard a number of comments in this thread 
about the "heartache" and "pain" associated with moving from Windows to the 
Linux OS.  

How soon we forget.  

The transition from DOS to the earlier versions of Windows was much more 
painful.  Not only did we have to deal with that buggy, crashing, piece of 
crap, Windows GUI, but the initial learning curve was tremendous. The only 
saving grace was that most (as in not all) of the Windows applications from the 
user perspective operated in a similar fashion.  And let us not forget about 
some of the horrific application software from the early 90's.  M$ Project 
comes to mind as one of the worst but there were plenty of others.

So when others talk about the "pain" and "heartache" associated with Linux, 
remember it is all relative.  In my opinion, the transition from Windows to 
Linux was a piece of cake.

73,

Dan N4XWE



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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Jim Lux wrote:
> 
> Sure. BUT PowerSDR is a product from a company that presumably wishes to 
> stay in business and has to sell product to do so (unless Gerald is 
> going to altruistically support ham radio into the future..).  And for 
> the next few years at least (and probably well into the next decade) the 
> dominant platform (in terms of percentage of computers) is going to be 
> windows (just out of inertia, and because MS can spend a gargantuan sum 
> of money to keep it that way).  Out of the hundreds,if not thousands, of 
> SDR1000 owners, I suspect a very small percentage participate on this 
> list, and there are a huge number of people just appreciating the 
> SDR1000/PowerSDR combination as a high performance "black box 
> appliance".  And, statistically, those people are more likely to be 
> running Windows.

I don't believe Flex-radio sell the PowerSDR at all. It is open source 
and GPL. Flex-radio sell the Flexradio HARDWARE, and use PowerSDR as a 
tool to do that. The better PowerSDR is, the more Flexradio HARDWARE 
they will sell. They let other people in the open source community 
improve the software with them and that results in better, more reliable 
software, and therefore more Flexradio hardware sales.

> 
> The vocal minority, interested in tinkering, etc., for whom open source 
> is a godsend, probably has a higher percentage of Linux users.  Further, 
> just because they're willing to tinker, they're also willing to suffer 
> some amount of pain to shift from Windows to Linux  (and, yes, there is 
> significant pain in doing so, notwithstanding how congenial the 
> environment is after the changeover).

I don't believe there is significant pain to shift from Windows to 
Linux. Microsoft might want users to think that, but it really is not true.

>>
>> The SDR1000 is most certainly not a "no user serviceable parts inside" 
>> product.
> 
> 
> The fact that it is "user servicing allowed and encouraged" but supports 
> the "black box" model is all to the better.
> 

That is more the point I was trying to make.

> 
> Jim, W6RMK
> 


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Jim Lux]

At 07:56 AM 1/2/2007, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>Jim Lux wrote:
>>At 02:58 PM 1/1/2007, Ken N9VV wrote:
>>>I enjoyed this thought provoking article about the "real" cost of M$
>>>Virus (Vista)
>>>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
>>>de ken
>
>>
>>And that gets to what the future of an SDR1000/PowerSDR is...
>>is an SDR1000 a hacker platform?
>>is it a consumer software radio?
>
>I think the answer is both. It works very nicely as a consumer 
>radio, but also is open enough to act as a hacker platform.
>
>>If the latter, then PowerSDR must go the Vista route (unless MS goes
>
>"must" is way to strong here. PowerSDR does not have to go any 
>particular route. It is an open platform and will just go whichever 
>way users want it to go.


Sure. BUT PowerSDR is a product from a company that presumably wishes 
to stay in business and has to sell product to do so (unless Gerald 
is going to altruistically support ham radio into the future..).  And 
for the next few years at least (and probably well into the next 
decade) the dominant platform (in terms of percentage of computers) 
is going to be windows (just out of inertia, and because MS can spend 
a gargantuan sum of money to keep it that way).  Out of the 
hundreds,if not thousands, of SDR1000 owners, I suspect a very small 
percentage participate on this list, and there are a huge number of 
people just appreciating the SDR1000/PowerSDR combination as a high 
performance "black box appliance".  And, statistically, those people 
are more likely to be running Windows.

The vocal minority, interested in tinkering, etc., for whom open 
source is a godsend, probably has a higher percentage of Linux 
users.  Further, just because they're willing to tinker, they're also 
willing to suffer some amount of pain to shift from Windows to 
Linux  (and, yes, there is significant pain in doing so, 
notwithstanding how congenial the environment is after the changeover).

I actually think the optimum long range solution is a Linux embedded 
PC in the radio box talking over ethernet to the UI running on 
Windows (or whatever).  Then, the radio hackers get a nice open 
source platform to tinker in (and it's easier to do that kind of 
thing in Linux than Windows).  The "all I want is a radio" folks get 
what they want, without having to buy a whole 'nother computer that 
then has to be managed. (the embedded Linux box is a stripped down 
distro, etc.)  And the Windows UI folks get to do all the nice 
Windows UI things, including coexisting with other ham radio and 
other software.


>>out of business or becomes a <10% minority share player in the 
>>market). There are already limitations imposed on PowerSDR (as 
>>shipped) to meet regulatory requirements, and any peculiar DRM 
>>related functional issues would be the same. Hey, the source code 
>>can still be open and so can the hardware interface specifications, 
>>so the philosophical intent of Gerald, et al, can still be met.
>
>Regulations are different in each country. The PowerSDR source code 
>ships to be compatible with US Regulations, but users in other 
>countries are free to modify the source code they use in any way 
>they see fit and lawful. For example, the UK authority is not nearly 
>as draconian as the FCC.

Yes. And that IS a benefit of opensource.  The point I was trying to 
make is that we already accept some limitations on what we can do to 
meet regulatory requirements, and it's not much different for digital 
rights management.  It might well be that you can't run PowerSDR 
(which would need fully open interfaces to adhere to the philosophy) 
and watch a DVD or listen to iTunes at the same time.  Sure, it's not 
the "total flexibility do whatever I want in a single box nirvana," 
but that's never going to happen anyway, right?

Splitting the DSP and "radio" functionality into a separate processor 
(running Linux or RTEMS or whatever) and just passing control 
interface and audio through Windows fits within the existing and 
planned DRM models of Microsoft just fine. It's just another audio 
stream, and it can be tagged as wideopen unprotected, etc., without 
any trouble.

What you will find is that Windows is going to be ever less of a 
"hackers platform" than ever, but that's no big surprise.  It has 
always been painful to try and do real-time processing within 
Windows, because, when it gets right down to it, Windows is more of a 
"Presentation Manager" than a real operating system, and so, very UI 
centric, not OS services centric.  And, as corporate customers demand 
real OS features (like privilege management, security, etc.) it's 
only going to get less tinkering friendly.  With security (in any 
form) comes finer grained access controls and a larger administrative 
overhead to manage those controls.  It matters not whether you are 
protecting some video stream or sensitive health care information, 
the trend is to better security overall.


>>As far as the former goes, t

Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Jim Lux wrote:
> At 02:58 PM 1/1/2007, Ken N9VV wrote:
>> I enjoyed this thought provoking article about the "real" cost of M$
>> Virus (Vista)
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
>> de ken
> 
> 

> 
> 
> And that gets to what the future of an SDR1000/PowerSDR is...
> 
> is an SDR1000 a hacker platform?
> is it a consumer software radio?

I think the answer is both. It works very nicely as a consumer radio, 
but also is open enough to act as a hacker platform.

> 
> If the latter, then PowerSDR must go the Vista route (unless MS goes 

"must" is way to strong here. PowerSDR does not have to go any 
particular route. It is an open platform and will just go whichever way 
users want it to go.

> out of business or becomes a <10% minority share player in the 
> market). There are already limitations imposed on PowerSDR (as 
> shipped) to meet regulatory requirements, and any peculiar DRM 
> related functional issues would be the same. Hey, the source code can 
> still be open and so can the hardware interface specifications, so 
> the philosophical intent of Gerald, et al, can still be met.

Regulations are different in each country. The PowerSDR source code 
ships to be compatible with US Regulations, but users in other countries 
are free to modify the source code they use in any way they see fit and 
lawful. For example, the UK authority is not nearly as draconian as the FCC.

> 
> As far as the former goes, there's a small and vibrant community of 
> people playing with the SDR1000 hardware platform in a variety of 
> ways. And I think it will stay that way.  But recognize that the 
> software/hardware hacker and tinkerer is a distinct minority of the 
> total SDR1000/PowerSDR market.  There are a lot of people who would 
> be perfectly happy with a SDR1000 in a sealed ("no user serviceable 
> parts inside") box connected to a sealed Windows Genuine Advantage 
> ("No user serviceable software inside") Vista box, as long as the box works.
> 

The SDR1000 is most certainly not a "no user serviceable parts inside" 
product.



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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Jim Lux]

At 02:58 PM 1/1/2007, Ken N9VV wrote:
>I enjoyed this thought provoking article about the "real" cost of M$
>Virus (Vista)
>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
>de ken


There is some interesting commentary that follows that article, to 
wit, that to a certain extent, the concerns are overblown and 
theoretical.  Yes, Microsoft *could* cause everything to quit working 
and yes, there could be unforseen side effects from DRM.  However, 
this is the same thing that happens now.  Most MS users use automatic 
update, and nothing stops MS from rolling out (either by accident or 
design) a patch that kills Windows. (e.g. the whole WGA thing).

Corporate users would obviously not tolerate such a threat to mission 
critical systems (and, in fact, such a "remote software kill" feature 
if implemented intentionally is actually illegal (civil not criminal) 
in some case), and since MS wants corporate users, I suspect there 
will be appropriate procedures (and, most likely, Vista Corporate 
Edition) to deal with it. Tying software serial number to physical 
hardware has been around for decades (remember "vault" and 5 1/4" 
floppies) and doesn't create a significant hardship on the mainstream 
corporate computer builder/user nor on the run of the mill consumer, 
who is buying a "computer as a black box".


Most consumer electronics is not "user serviceable" in any real sense 
of the word (and neither are most ham radios, for that 
matter).  Nobody, when faced with a dead $40 consumer DVD player, 
goes out and buys a replacement drive and tries to bolt it into the 
existing chassis.  Likewise, the TIVO box, the Sony Playstation, etc. 
(not to say that people haven't done it, it's just not the intended 
use case.) For that matter, the same applies to TVs and Stereos. PCs 
are EXACTLY the same.  They are pieces of consumer electronics and 
have long since moved away from the "open up the case and swap in 
another interface" world.  (hence the popularity of 1394 and USB 
interfaces).  Sure, there are places that do servicing (for all 
appliances) and for decades there has been a system (authorized 
factory service centers, SAMS Photo-facts, etc.) to deal with 
repair/replacement at the component level.

The fact that this "no user serviceable parts inside" philosophy 
happens to be tied to digital rights management does cause a lot of 
"information wants to be free" philosophers to get their knickers in 
a twist, but, again, this sort of thing is nothing new.  The attempt 
to control the hardware and software configuration has great 
potential benefits for most consumers (at least as far as the user 
experience goes.. note that Apple stayed in business many years with 
a very closed architecture) and is legally required in some cases 
(the reason there are no firmware updates (and not even any mechanism 
for doing so) for my IC7000 is that the FCC requires "no user 
serviceable" components to get equipment authorization.. not because 
Icom has some evil plan for world domination)

The people who will be most subject to the problem will be the ones 
trying to do something unusual (i.e., the hackers and tweakers) or 
who are trying to reuse old hardware (replacing the mobo, for 
instance).  But this is nothing new, and is just part of the fun of 
hacking.  It just means it gets a bit harder, or you have to choose a 
different platform to hack on.


And that gets to what the future of an SDR1000/PowerSDR is...

is an SDR1000 a hacker platform?
is it a consumer software radio?

If the latter, then PowerSDR must go the Vista route (unless MS goes 
out of business or becomes a <10% minority share player in the 
market). There are already limitations imposed on PowerSDR (as 
shipped) to meet regulatory requirements, and any peculiar DRM 
related functional issues would be the same. Hey, the source code can 
still be open and so can the hardware interface specifications, so 
the philosophical intent of Gerald, et al, can still be met.

As far as the former goes, there's a small and vibrant community of 
people playing with the SDR1000 hardware platform in a variety of 
ways. And I think it will stay that way.  But recognize that the 
software/hardware hacker and tinkerer is a distinct minority of the 
total SDR1000/PowerSDR market.  There are a lot of people who would 
be perfectly happy with a SDR1000 in a sealed ("no user serviceable 
parts inside") box connected to a sealed Windows Genuine Advantage 
("No user serviceable software inside") Vista box, as long as the box works.




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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

Bill Tracey wrote:

> In the Ozy/Janus modified version of PowerSDR we have code to take the
> frames from the USB pipe, convert 'em to floats and pack them into a
> PortAudio frame and then call the same callback that PowerSDR uses for
> PortAudio.
> 
> I'm sure we could get something going on Linux if there's interest.

There's nothing standing in the way of providing a jack client
that does essentially the same things. The downside is that it
would introduce one buffer of latency at the start.

The Right Thing To Do is probably to gin up an ALSA slave device
that communicates between the Ozy/Janus handler process and the
ALSA server via shared memory. ALSA can be responsible for the
int<->float conversions.

73
Frank
AB2KT

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Bill Tracey]

Yes and No.  Ozy/Janus send frames containing audio samples and some 
control status bits over a USB pipe that can be read via LIBusb.  It reads 
frames containing transmit data and data destined for the monitor 
speaker.  No in that I don't think the USRP handles that data for the 
speakers and mic  Also I don't think USRP sends the control bits in the 
audio data stream and its sampling rate us much higher.

In the Ozy/Janus modified version of PowerSDR we have code to take the 
frames from the USB pipe, convert 'em to floats and pack them into a 
PortAudio frame and then call the same callback that PowerSDR uses for 
PortAudio.

I'm sure we could get something going on Linux if there's interest.

Regards,

Bill (kd5tfd)

At 06:45 PM 1/1/2007, Frank Brickle wrote:
>
>
>Janus+Ozy basically mimics the USRP mechanism, is that right?
>
>73
>Frank
>AB2KT



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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

Lyle Johnson wrote:

> ... knows the popular
> USB knobs and knobs-plus-buttons widgets, handles the various
> (supported) soundcards, understands the HPSDR Janus+Ozy interface...

Not that far off even now. I have an experimental version that
reads MIDI control streams and thus the USB controllers through
the USB-MIDI pseudo-drivers. All of the mapping of devices to
control streams is handled by the ALSA MIDI patching graphic
utilities.

Janus+Ozy basically mimics the USRP mechanism, is that right?

73
Frank
AB2KT

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[KD5NWA]

Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> Linux isn't always the most user-friendly hand-holding OS, but you
>> can't beat the power and flexibility.
> 
> OTOH, it is reasonable to expect that an application (e.g., SDR-1000 
> console) can be made to self-boot and just look like, well, an SDR 
> console, without having to know anything about Linux, mess with 
> networks, worry about virii, or deal with a command-line consle.
> 
> The TiVO system, I am told, is a Linux application, yet the consumers 
> who use it everyday need know nothing about Linux.
> 
> At least one of the popular iPOD-like audio-addiction-dispensers is also 
> running Linux inside.
> 
> I believe the OS in my AvMAP GPS is Linux, too.  Might be wrong, but I 
> never see it, I just use the application.
> 
> In the end, I just want to use the radio.  It isn't about Linux, or 
> Windows, or BSD -- it's about the radio.
> 
> At least, it is for me :-)
> 
> 73,
> 
> Lyle KK7P

Those devices have the software in "Firmware" so you can even turn it 
off without shutting it down and no harm done, but a PC is another 
beast, if you shut it down improperly you might damage the data on the 
hard disk, so you will need software to recover.

How often does the Tivo software gets upgraded compared to the SDR software?

Where is the incentive to do this? Those companies strip down a copy of 
Linux because they are going to make a ton of money. How many people are 
there out with intimate knowledge of Linux are going to render a version 
of Linux useless for anything else?

The closest I can come up with is Puppy Linux, it's made to be small 
(60Mb) can run from a CD or, from a HD, or, from a USB Flash drive, it's 
lightning fast, since unlike most distros everything is loaded in RAM, 
it makes distros such as Knoptics look like they took slowdown pills.

The 60Mb is with Open Office software suite, Internet browser, email, 
ftp, games, and hundred of other tools. I have not checked lately but 
there was a development version that had tools like GCC and other 
programming tools.

-- 

Cecil
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com www.hpsdr.com

"Sacred Cows make the best Hamburger!"  Don Seglio Batuna

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[ZPO]

Lyle,

Very true -

Tivo, Linksys WRT54G/GS (at least until the latest crippled versions)
NSLU2, various music players, my Thecus NAS box, etc - All running
Linux inside and I've hacked all of them (less my NAS box - I've got
too much stuff on it at 2TB to play around comfortably)

The difference is that all those devices are appliances.  I can
defintely see a market for a fully integrated box that boots from
flash into PowerSDR or some other console.  A couple SPDIF in/out
ports on the back would obviate an additional A/D-D/A step for running
digital mode software.  Folks that want to use the appliance as
shipped could do so.  The intrepid souls that want to venture into the
guts could add all sorts of nifty extra functionality.  The ding comes
at the pricepoint.

I'm all about the radio too.  I'm used to working the seams between
the user interface and the black box.  That is where I find the fun
that I know how to work with well.  I don't have the skills *yet* to
whip up a design for something like an SDR.  I do have the skills to
integrate all the pieces-parts into an integrated working system that
allows me to make contacts and enjoy both processes.

73 N5VFF/YI9VFF - Brian

On 1/2/07, Lyle Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> OTOH, it is reasonable to expect that an application (e.g., SDR-1000
> console) can be made to self-boot and just look like, well, an SDR
> console, without having to know anything about Linux, mess with
> networks, worry about virii, or deal with a command-line consle.
>
> The TiVO system, I am told, is a Linux application, yet the consumers
> who use it everyday need know nothing about Linux.
>
> At least one of the popular iPOD-like audio-addiction-dispensers is also
> running Linux inside.
>
> I believe the OS in my AvMAP GPS is Linux, too.  Might be wrong, but I
> never see it, I just use the application.
>
> In the end, I just want to use the radio.  It isn't about Linux, or
> Windows, or BSD -- it's about the radio.
>
> At least, it is for me :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Ken N9VV]

I enjoyed this thought provoking article about the "real" cost of M$ 
Virus (Vista)
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
de ken


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[KD5NWA]

Jerry wrote:
> I too am adding my voice to the demand for a Linux version. 
> 
>   Remember, however, that other software such as logging and "good" RTTY
> demod programs are needed to convert the SDR to a useful adjunct to the
> shack.  We are talking about a system not just a single component.
> 
>   The logging programs, the RTTY and PSK programs etc for Linux are quite
> primitive in comparison to those available for windows.  Win 2K and XP will
> be around for a while. Vista may not be.
> 
>   73 de Jerry NO2T

Vista may be around longer than any other OS from Microsoft, I read an 
article that mentioned that it cost over 10 Billion dollars, yes Billion 
dollars to develop Vista.  Even Microsoft will not be able to afford 
that kind of development cost too often, or it's going to "Hasta la 
Vista, Baby"

Make sure you don't loose your XP or Win2K cd's.

-- 

Cecil
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com www.hpsdr.com

"Sacred Cows make the best Hamburger!"  Don Seglio Batuna

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

tlf has most of what you want. xlog is very close.

73
Frank
AB2KT

Greg wrote:
>  I would cross over to
> Linux in a NY minute IF it there were applications for:
> Telnet dx spotting
> Comprehensive logging program with telnet, rotor control, contestingetc.
> PowerSDR
> Mapping...similar to DX Atlas
> 

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Lyle Johnson]

> Linux isn't always the most user-friendly hand-holding OS, but you
> can't beat the power and flexibility.

OTOH, it is reasonable to expect that an application (e.g., SDR-1000 
console) can be made to self-boot and just look like, well, an SDR 
console, without having to know anything about Linux, mess with 
networks, worry about virii, or deal with a command-line consle.

The TiVO system, I am told, is a Linux application, yet the consumers 
who use it everyday need know nothing about Linux.

At least one of the popular iPOD-like audio-addiction-dispensers is also 
running Linux inside.

I believe the OS in my AvMAP GPS is Linux, too.  Might be wrong, but I 
never see it, I just use the application.

In the end, I just want to use the radio.  It isn't about Linux, or 
Windows, or BSD -- it's about the radio.

At least, it is for me :-)

73,

Lyle KK7P


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[ZPO]

I'm in and very conversant in Linux.

Linux isn't always the most user-friendly hand-holding OS, but you
can't beat the power and flexibility.

73 N5VFF/YI9VFF - Brian


On 1/1/07, Ross Stenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Let the people speak and the revolution begins (continues)
>
> 73 Ross K9COX
>
> > Count me in on the groundswell...
>
>
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[petervn]

Who writes a windows(XP...)-simulator under Linux . ;-(
73
 
groeten Peter
petervn(a)hetnet.nl   ; pa0pvn(a)hetnet.nl 
   ;
pa0pvn(a)gmail.com ; pa0pvn(a)amsat.org .
 

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Greg]

I use my comoputer mostly for ham radio applications.  I would cross over to
Linux in a NY minute IF it there were applications for:
Telnet dx spotting
Comprehensive logging program with telnet, rotor control, contestingetc.
PowerSDR
Mapping...similar to DX Atlas

I like having all these features interact with each other.  If this was
available in Linux without the crazy usual windows bog downs it would be a
no brainer for me to switch.

Greg
AB7R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of KD5NWA
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 12:33 PM
To: Flex-radio Reflector
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?


Frank Brickle wrote:
> Ken --
>
> The stuff has to be finished and shrink-wrapped first. The
> hardware dependencies aren't big problems.
>
> The basic issue is that the Linux development has been getting
> little more than crumbs. Brilliant crumbs, to be sure, like John
> Melton, Edson Pereira, and Bob Cowdery. Crumbs nonetheless.
>
> Every time it's looked like proper attention could be paid to
> really finishing the Linux version (read: I've stamped my feet and
> thrown a tantrum), one fire or another has sprung up on the
> Windows side which drained away any of the available "official"
> resources that could be devoted to Linux. This situation is likely
> to continue unless there is at least *some* demand on the part of
> users or potential users for a quality Linux product.
>
> One of my New Year's resolutions (actually went into effect a few
> months ago) was to do nothing on the Flex front that wasn't
> directly applicaMble first and immediately to the new software
> design under Linux. In part this is because none of the really
> interesting pending SDR features (like co-channel interference
> removal or comprehensive automatic signal classification) is worth
> even thinking about under the current design, or under Windows in
> general for that matter. Vista only makes it worse.
>
> If people want a consumer-oriented Linux version, there has to be
> a groundswell of popular support for it. Otherwise the individual
> Linux developers are going to continue to write to suit
> themselves, and that development is, for now, aimed almost
> exclusively at experimenters.
>
> 73 and Happy New Year
> Frank
> AB2KT
>

I  would like to add my voice to the groundswell of demand for a Linux
version.

--

Cecil
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com www.hpsdr.com

"Sacred Cows make the best Hamburger!"  Don Seglio Batuna

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Lyle Johnson]

>> Count me in on the groundswell...
> 
> Me, too.  I would like a load-the-CD-and-go version that just works. 
> Handles the parallel port, or various USB interfaces, knows the popular 
> USB knobs and knobs-plus-buttons widgets, handles the various 
> (supported) soundcards, understands the HPSDR Janus+Ozy interface...

Or (even better?,) so it will boot and load into my Cell Processor-based 
system and it understands the SIXAXIS controller for tuning, mode 
selection, etc!

-Lyle KK7P


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Ross Stenberg]

Let the people speak and the revolution begins (continues)

73 Ross K9COX

> Count me in on the groundswell...



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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Larry Loen]

The other, not quite so obvious alternative to Linux would be to support 
XP, only, for as long as we can.

This is not as strange an idea as it looks.  It may be that we aren't 
the only ones unwilling or unable to enter this brave new world of 
optimizing everything for the record industry.

Plenty of powerful computers (any old 2.4 GHz Pentium is plenty good) 
will exist for some time to come at good prices and virtually all will 
have valid XP licenses when you buy them.  It may be a problem for Flex 
Radio at some point when official consumer support dies, but maybe 
things will straighten out by then.

There's going to be a long delayed rampdown of XP in any event.  For 
reasons entirely unrelated to us, major companies are not going to 
immediately dump XP.

We have a while to think about this -- perhaps a year or two -- and if 
Vista gets in the way, it could be a serious position not to bother with 
it for as long as Gerald can manage it without harming his business.  I 
don't know when that point is, but it isn't today, that's for sure.


Larry WO0Z




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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Lyle Johnson]

> Count me in on the groundswell...

Me, too.  I would like a load-the-CD-and-go version that just works. 
Handles the parallel port, or various USB interfaces, knows the popular 
USB knobs and knobs-plus-buttons widgets, handles the various 
(supported) soundcards, understands the HPSDR Janus+Ozy interface...

HNY,

Lyle KK7P


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Ed Haskell]

Me too.

I'm not going to upgrade to Vista and am not anxious to find that I have to
keep a WinXP machine around just because this is no PowerSDR for Linux.

On 1/1/07, John Ackermann N8UR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Count me in on the groundswell...
>
> John
> 
>
> Frank Brickle said the following on 01/01/2007 02:56 PM:
> > If people want a consumer-oriented Linux version, there has to be
> > a groundswell of popular support for it. Otherwise the individual
> > Linux developers are going to continue to write to suit
> > themselves, and that development is, for now, aimed almost
> > exclusively at experimenters.
>
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[KD5NWA]

Frank Brickle wrote:
> Ken --
> 
> The stuff has to be finished and shrink-wrapped first. The
> hardware dependencies aren't big problems.
> 
> The basic issue is that the Linux development has been getting
> little more than crumbs. Brilliant crumbs, to be sure, like John
> Melton, Edson Pereira, and Bob Cowdery. Crumbs nonetheless.
> 
> Every time it's looked like proper attention could be paid to
> really finishing the Linux version (read: I've stamped my feet and
> thrown a tantrum), one fire or another has sprung up on the
> Windows side which drained away any of the available "official"
> resources that could be devoted to Linux. This situation is likely
> to continue unless there is at least *some* demand on the part of
> users or potential users for a quality Linux product.
> 
> One of my New Year's resolutions (actually went into effect a few
> months ago) was to do nothing on the Flex front that wasn't
> directly applicable first and immediately to the new software
> design under Linux. In part this is because none of the really
> interesting pending SDR features (like co-channel interference
> removal or comprehensive automatic signal classification) is worth
> even thinking about under the current design, or under Windows in
> general for that matter. Vista only makes it worse.
> 
> If people want a consumer-oriented Linux version, there has to be
> a groundswell of popular support for it. Otherwise the individual
> Linux developers are going to continue to write to suit
> themselves, and that development is, for now, aimed almost
> exclusively at experimenters.
> 
> 73 and Happy New Year
> Frank
> AB2KT
> 

I  would like to add my voice to the groundswell of demand for a Linux 
version.

-- 

Cecil
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com www.hpsdr.com

"Sacred Cows make the best Hamburger!"  Don Seglio Batuna

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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Count me in on the groundswell...

John


Frank Brickle said the following on 01/01/2007 02:56 PM:
> If people want a consumer-oriented Linux version, there has to be
> a groundswell of popular support for it. Otherwise the individual
> Linux developers are going to continue to write to suit
> themselves, and that development is, for now, aimed almost
> exclusively at experimenters.


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Frank Brickle]

Ken --

The stuff has to be finished and shrink-wrapped first. The
hardware dependencies aren't big problems.

The basic issue is that the Linux development has been getting
little more than crumbs. Brilliant crumbs, to be sure, like John
Melton, Edson Pereira, and Bob Cowdery. Crumbs nonetheless.

Every time it's looked like proper attention could be paid to
really finishing the Linux version (read: I've stamped my feet and
thrown a tantrum), one fire or another has sprung up on the
Windows side which drained away any of the available "official"
resources that could be devoted to Linux. This situation is likely
to continue unless there is at least *some* demand on the part of
users or potential users for a quality Linux product.

One of my New Year's resolutions (actually went into effect a few
months ago) was to do nothing on the Flex front that wasn't
directly applicable first and immediately to the new software
design under Linux. In part this is because none of the really
interesting pending SDR features (like co-channel interference
removal or comprehensive automatic signal classification) is worth
even thinking about under the current design, or under Windows in
general for that matter. Vista only makes it worse.

If people want a consumer-oriented Linux version, there has to be
a groundswell of popular support for it. Otherwise the individual
Linux developers are going to continue to write to suit
themselves, and that development is, for now, aimed almost
exclusively at experimenters.

73 and Happy New Year
Frank
AB2KT

Ken N9VV wrote:
> Dear smart Linux guys, I wonder if in the future there might be any 
> chance of a Knoppix LiveCD style setup for PowerSDR?
> 
> It would be so wonderful to have a pre-configured O/S that I can run off 
> my CDROM (or 1GB USB stick) with everything in RAM.
> 
> Perhaps dependencies on parallel port, display, and sound card 
> interfaces makes this impossible?
> 
> TU de ken n9vv
> 
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> 


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Re: [Flexradio] Linux, any chance of a knoppix like setup?

[Ken N9VV]

Dear smart Linux guys, I wonder if in the future there might be any 
chance of a Knoppix LiveCD style setup for PowerSDR?

It would be so wonderful to have a pre-configured O/S that I can run off 
my CDROM (or 1GB USB stick) with everything in RAM.

Perhaps dependencies on parallel port, display, and sound card 
interfaces makes this impossible?

TU de ken n9vv

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