Re: [FRIAM] EM Drive

[Douglas Roberts]

Geez, do you think the study might be a bit bogus?

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/11/nasas-em-
> drive-still-a-wtf-thruster/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2016 10:48 AM
> *To:* Wedtech ; Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] EM Drive
>
>
>
> What was once thought to be a kooky-science space propulsion engine, the
> EM Drive has been proven to be real:
>
> http://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-official-nasa-s-peer-
> reviewed-em-drive-paper-has-finally-been-published
>
>
>
> Unfortunately it appears to violate Newton's third law re: action/reaction
> in traditional thrust based rocket engines.
>
>
>
> Several attempts to reconcile how the EM Drive works have odd side
> effects. The current favorite is an unusual alternative to the traditional
> interpretation of quantum mechanics, "Pilot Wave" theory:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie-Bohm_theory
>
>
>
> Ruth, Bruce and others: is this quackery?
>
>
>
> If not, it certainly is going to be a Brave New World!
>
>
>
>-- Owen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>



-- 

*Doug robertsd...@parrot-farm.net *
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*


*505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] windows Q

[Douglas Roberts]

I believe that if you look in the Open Microsoft Specifications

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd208104.aspx

you will find that spontaneous reboots are required as per the Technical
Specifications section, here:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj712081.aspx

Be prepared to wait for the document, however, because the
msdn.microsoft.com server apparently rebooted while I was trying to view
the document.

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> (Windows frustrates me but that's different thread)
>
> Anyone else have there windows box seemingly reboot for no reason?
>
> I left mine on overnight, had some setup projects I'm working on set up.
> Come back to find it had rebooted. Nothing in settings stands out in the
> update settings (don't like those).
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 

*Doug robertsd...@parrot-farm.net *
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*


*505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog : Landmark 2013 IPCC Report: 95% Chance Most of Global Warming is Human-Caused | Weather Underground

[Douglas Roberts]

Some are just more gaping than others.  Consider this rather exact analogy
to our current political situation:

So, Imagine that the company you work for held a poll, and asked everyone
if they thought it would be a good idea to put a soda machine in the break
room. The poll came back, and the majority of your colleagues said "Yes",
indicating that they would like a soda machine. Some said no, but the
majority said yes. So, a week later, there's a soda machine. Now imagine
that Bill in accounting voted against the soda machine. He has a strong
hatred for caffeinated soft drinks, thinks they are bad you you, whatever.
He campaigns throughout the office to get the machine removed. Well,
management decides "OK, we'll ask again" and again, the majority of people
say "Yes, lets keep the soda machine." Bill continues to campaign, and
management continues to ask the employees, and every time, the answer is in
favor of the soda machine. This happens, lets say... 35 times. Eventually,
Bill says "OK, I'M NOT PROCESSING PAYROLL ANYMORE UNTIL THE SODA MACHINE IS
REMOVED", so nobody will get paid unless management removes the machine.
What should we do???

Answer: Fire Bill and get someone who will do the fucking job.

Bonus: Bill tells everyone that he was willing to "Negotiate", to come to a
solution where everyone got their payroll checks, but only so long as that
negotiation capitulated to his demand to remove the soda machine.

Bill is a fucking jackass.


On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen  wrote:

> Owen Densmore wrote at 10/01/2013 10:10 AM:
>
>  I'll take a page from Doug: I think AssHoles are the true problem.
>>
>
> And, of course, you're using "asshole" as a synonym for "human".
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Neolithic fear is such a motivating factory.
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] #cloning #copying #realityhax #lifehax

[Douglas Roberts]

I must have been mistaken, then.  I thought that museum display was on LANL
micro-management.

I feel so silly now.

--Doug


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

>
>
> For folks in the Northern New Mexico area, I understand the Bradbury
> Science Museum in Los Alamos has an exhibit on nanotech.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/**pages/Center-for-Integrated-**Nanotechnologies/
> **290948830952233
>
> Another way is to harness existing biological systems to do the work.
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/**angela_belcher_using_nature_**
> to_grow_batteries.html
>
> Meanwhile, 3d lithography is making impressive strides (amazing to me
> anyway), e.g. http://www.nanoscribe.de
>
> Marcus
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Fwd: Russia Grants Snowden 1-Year Asylum - NYTimes.com

[Douglas Roberts]

Well, as General Alexander said during Wednesday's keynote at Blackhat, all
of this homegrown surveillance is to protect our freedom.

Of course, at that point one member of the estimated 15,000 in the audience
shouted BULLSHIT! loud enough for us all to hear.

And when the General said that we (the NSA) were protecting you (us, the
audience) from Al Queda attacks, that same guy shouted back, "THEY'RE
ATTACKING US BECAUSE WE'RE BOMBING THEM!"

And then things proceeded to get a bit lively.

-Doug
On Aug 1, 2013 7:28 PM, "Roger Critchlow"  wrote:

> Aha, an even less satisfying explanation:
>
>
> http://gawker.com/how-a-paranoid-blogger-made-everyone-scared-to-google-p-992804224
>
> Dad's home because he recently left his previous job, and his search
> history on his work computer contained backpacks and pressure cookers, so
> his previous employer reported him as suspicious to the local cops.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
>
>>  On 8/1/13 4:09 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>>
>> My guess is that the how-to bomb instructions site was a honey pot.  The
>> "plan" was to find feeble minded Tsarnaev copycats who could be encouraged
>> to build pressure cooker bombs.
>>
>> Who would be suspicious of searches for Quinoa?
>>
>>http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/KO/KOHome.html
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Fwd: Russia Grants Snowden 1-Year Asylum - NYTimes.com

[Douglas Roberts]

I'm having interesting cut and paste issues here at Blackhat.  The last
sentence from my previous message didn't belong there...

However, ultimately, on the cosmological scale of things, I guess it really
doesn't matter...
On Aug 1, 2013 10:22 AM, "Douglas Roberts"  wrote:

> You underestimate the influence of the good old boy system. He exposed the
> head of them NSA as a liar, and in so doing made the entire top echelon of
> the US government look dishonest and foolish.
>
> They want to make him pay, and leaning on weaker governments to not accept
> his requests for asylum is one way they are trying to do that.
>
> BTW, I am at Blackhat this week, and General Alexander, head of the NSA
> got a very chilly reception here during his keynote talk yesterday.
>
>
> https://threatpost.com/nsa-director-defends-surveillance-activities-during-tense-black-hat-keynote/101541
>
> The story left out the part about when General Alexander said that all of
> this NSA civilian surveillance was to protect American freedom, and
> somebody in the audience shouted, "BULLSHIT!"
>
> It got a bit lively after that...
>
> People seem to forget that it just doesn't matter.
>
> ▶ Show quoted text
>  Fascinating.  I certainly was surprised so few countries would grant him
> asylum.
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/world/europe/edward-snowden-russia.html?_r=0
>
>
>-- Owen
>
>
>
> ___
> Wedtech mailing list
> wedt...@redfish.com
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/wedtech_redfish.com
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Fwd: Russia Grants Snowden 1-Year Asylum - NYTimes.com

[Douglas Roberts]

Blackhat, fyi, is probably the premier, largest cybersecurity conference,
held world wide.  The US conference is always held in Las Vegas, in July.


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Pamela McCorduck  wrote:

> Yes, really scary.
>
> Doug, why do you say it doesn't really matter? (And fmi, what is Black
> Hat?)
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:30 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
> Here's a near comic but really scary example of just how idiotic these
> fools are: search for backpacks and pressure cookers and you get a visit by
> black SUVs and men in black:
> https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724
>
>-- Owen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Fwd: Russia Grants Snowden 1-Year Asylum - NYTimes.com

[Douglas Roberts]

Pamela, I am having interesting cut and paste issues, compounded by flaky
wifi access while here at Blackhat.  That last sentence appeared unnoticed
by me in my previous message, thereby escaping the editorial process.

However, all things considered (on the cosmological scale, anyhow), people
tend to forget that it really doesn't matter...


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Pamela McCorduck  wrote:

> Yes, really scary.
>
> Doug, why do you say it doesn't really matter? (And fmi, what is Black
> Hat?)
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:30 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
> Here's a near comic but really scary example of just how idiotic these
> fools are: search for backpacks and pressure cookers and you get a visit by
> black SUVs and men in black:
> https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724
>
>-- Owen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Fwd: Russia Grants Snowden 1-Year Asylum - NYTimes.com

[Douglas Roberts]

You underestimate the influence of the good old boy system. He exposed the
head of them NSA as a liar, and in so doing made the entire top echelon of
the US government look dishonest and foolish.

They want to make him pay, and leaning on weaker governments to not accept
his requests for asylum is one way they are trying to do that.

BTW, I am at Blackhat this week, and General Alexander, head of the NSA got
a very chilly reception here during his keynote talk yesterday.

https://threatpost.com/nsa-director-defends-surveillance-activities-during-tense-black-hat-keynote/101541

The story left out the part about when General Alexander said that all of
this NSA civilian surveillance was to protect American freedom, and
somebody in the audience shouted, "BULLSHIT!"

It got a bit lively after that...

People seem to forget that it just doesn't matter.

▶ Show quoted text
 Fascinating.  I certainly was surprised so few countries would grant him
asylum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/world/europe/edward-snowden-russia.html?_r=0


   -- Owen



___
Wedtech mailing list
wedt...@redfish.com
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/wedtech_redfish.com

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] Separate Vacations This Summer

[Douglas Roberts]

Dear FRIAMers (even those of you who are a bit of an asshole now & then)

I've come to the conclusion that it is best if we take separate vacations
this summer.  Accordingly, I have adjusted my incoming stream of email to
skillfully detect any missives that originate from the FRIAM list, and have
arranged things so that they proceed directly on to the archives without
dallying around in my inbox.

Have a great summer V, and we'll pick things up again on the flip side.  Or
not!

--Doug

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

[Douglas Roberts]

You know, Glen, you can be a bit of an asshole at times.  History has
taught me this.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 1:13 PM, glen  wrote:

> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/25/2013 12:09 PM:
> > If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong
> > person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a
> psychologist.
>
> No, I wasn't asking you.  History has taught me that you won't
> contribute.  But I do believe there are those on the list who might.
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Shut me off 'cause I go crazy with this planet in my hands
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

[Douglas Roberts]

If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong
person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a psychologist.

--Doug


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:36 AM, glen  wrote:

>
> beliefs of a patient?  And more refined, does the condition of the
> patient matter?  E.g. I can see how bursting my friend, who is getting
> accupuncture for her neck pain, might help her.  But how about a 50 year
> old prostate cancer patient with a good prognosis?  Versus a 98 year old
> emphysema patient?
>
> -
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

[Douglas Roberts]

The intent was to produce a pragmatic perspective, not a philosophical one.
By avoiding the telling of escapist fantasy-world fairy tails in the first
place, there will be less untruth to deal with at later stages in life.

--Doug


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:08 AM, glen  wrote:

> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/25/2013 09:44 AM:
> > A better question might be: why are we still teaching them these
> > dishonest little fairy tales in the first place, which we then have to
> > un-teach later?
>
> I admit that's a more philosophical question, but not a better one.
> It's not clear how answering that question will help address the applied
> complexity problem of handling the mature organism, where these beliefs
> are deeply rooted and may well affect their physiology in some way.
>
> Harris' questions get to the root of the applied complexity problem.  Do
> you tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth to a dying old
> person?  If so, is that medically beneficial or detrimental?
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Man alive the jive and lyrics,
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

[Douglas Roberts]

A better question might be: why are we still teaching them these dishonest
little fairy tales in the first place, which we then have to un-teach later?

--Doug


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:29 AM, glen  wrote:

>
>
> The same could be said of children, I suppose.  When/how do you explain
> to your child that there is no Santa Claus?  When/how do you explain to
> your child that there is no God and those who say there is are simply
> wrong, but perhaps not always wrong in a terrible way?
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Meta-discussion

[Douglas Roberts]

We used to go there in the mid-80's and sit next to her and Rhett Butler,
her black dog and tell her stories about our parrots.
On Apr 23, 2013 8:27 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:

>  As long as we are picking nits and splitting hairs, the menu refers to
> "Rosalea" as opposed to "Rosalie".
>
> A Margarita by any other name would taste as fine?
>
> Damn, I stand (sit, actually) corrected. Remind me to never bet against
> you.
> On Apr 23, 2013 8:20 PM, "Marcus G. Daniels"  wrote:
>
>> On 4/23/13 8:08 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The Rosarita is a Margarita recipe invented by Rosalie back in the late
>>> 50's. You remember that, right Marcus?
>>>
>>>  Exhibit A, page 2.
>>
>> http://www.thepinkadobe.com/PinkAdobeDinnerMenu1012.pdf
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Meta-discussion

[Douglas Roberts]

Damn, I stand (sit, actually) corrected. Remind me to never bet against you.
On Apr 23, 2013 8:20 PM, "Marcus G. Daniels"  wrote:

> On 4/23/13 8:08 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>>
>> The Rosarita is a Margarita recipe invented by Rosalie back in the late
>> 50's. You remember that, right Marcus?
>>
>>  Exhibit A, page 2.
>
> http://www.thepinkadobe.com/**PinkAdobeDinnerMenu1012.pdf<http://www.thepinkadobe.com/PinkAdobeDinnerMenu1012.pdf>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com<http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Meta-discussion

[Douglas Roberts]

Ha, gotcha. The Rosarita is a Margarita recipe invented by Rosalie back in
the late 50's. You remember that, right Marcus?
On Apr 23, 2013 8:05 PM, "Marcus G. Daniels"  wrote:

> On 4/23/13 6:45 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
>> he should be enjoying his Rosarita (is that a type of Margarita?) at the
>> Dragon
>>
> Hmm, I have to clarify some terminology here.   I believe it's known as a
> Rosalita at the Pink Adobe.
> Don't you just hate auto-correct on mobile devices?
>
> Marcus
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

Actually, I did look at WP, just not at that entry. As an aside, it is
fascinating in its own way how little FRIAM bullshit matters, when viewed
from behind the comfortable haze produced by  Rosarita served up at the
Dragon Room.
On Apr 23, 2013 5:09 PM, "Eric Smith"  wrote:

> Thanks Robert and Owen too,
>
> Yes, many sins.  in all possible arenas.  The only limit is how fast one
> can commit them
>
> E
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2013, at 5:30 PM, Robert Holmes wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> I've never heard of inflation being attributed to the Higg's boson.
>
>
>
> Not looking something up in Wikipedia is almost as big a sin as not
> googling something…
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)#Theoretical_status
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

Interesting, Eric.  I've never heard of inflation being attributed to the
Higg's boson.  The concept of inflation was first cooked up as a fudge to
explain the observed size of the fluctuations in the cosmic background
radiation.  I've never heard of anybody claiming to be able to explain the
mechanism of inflation.

--Doug


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
> I know this isn't the main point of the thread, and perhaps already stuff
> you know, in which case apologies for redundancy:
>
> >  Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is
> postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through
> inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
>
> I think current understanding of inflation and the cosmological constant
> have all grown out of the way we think about the Higgs mechanism and the
> energy in the vacuum.  I did have a chance to ask a real cosmologist this
> to be sure I wasn't mistaken, and I believe what I will say below is right.
>
> The point of Higgs was that the vacuum underwent a freezing transition as
> it cooled, in one of the "bowl-to-mexican-hat" potentials that one always
> sees illustrated in explanations of magnetization etc.  (keyword for a
> google search would be Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking, and apologies that I
> can't write more here, since I should be working).  The general kind of
> freezing mechanism is used for a lot of stuff and reasonably well
> understood (understanding why pi mesons are "roughly" massless, how
> magnetization forms, etc.)   The interesting thing is that the massless
> particle that should have been formed when the Higgs vacuum froze was
> "eaten" (as they say in the jargon) by the previously-massless weak bosons
> because it had weak charge, and that made them massive.  (Keyword here
> would be interaction of gauge fields with Goldstone bosons.)
>
> But all that is essentially background.  The point for this discussion is
> that when the vacuum could be frozen into the low-energy "rim" of the hat,
> but starts out on the high-energy center (the part where the crown of your
> head goes), it has energy to give.  If it can succeed in freezing, that
> creates a shower of massive matter.  But if it is delayed in collapsing to
> the frozen vacuum, like water that is supercooled before it can freeze into
> its proper crystal, that excess vacuum energy becomes a source of stress
> energy-momentum for gravitation.  That stress energy momentum is the
> cosmological constant, and it drives exponential expansion.  Since the
> Higgs is a very high-energy-scale field (on people-scales), the
> cosmological constant associated with not-yet-having-relaxed is huge.  I
> don't know whether inflation people still think it was the Higgs of the
> weak boson that drove initial inflation, but I believe that was the
> proposal back when Alan Guth was working on these things.
>
> In that parlance, the current small-but-not-zero cosmological constant is
> a tiny residual vacuum energy-momentum that hasn't succeeded in relaxing
> away into a more stable, truly zero-energy, vacuum.
>
> This is probably not a great answer to the question of what caused
> inflation, but to the extent that having melted the vacuum to see the
> un-frozen Higgs as a particle seems to get everything right that we can
> measure, from only this minimal model, it is hard to see from here what
> would guide us to a more thorough characterization.
>
> It is remarkable, though, that the vacuum can have un-relaxed energy.  I
> should understand these things better than I do, but I was a bad student
> when I should have been learning them.
>
> Eric
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

Well, to be *totally* fair, Owen, I wasn't just pointing out an article in
one of my interest areas.  I was also using it as an opportunity to gently
criticize some  of my FRIAM colleagues. Just a little bit.

--Doug


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Oh, and I'm 200% with Doug about our "deadly embrace" tendency, quibbling
> about words and sucking the life out of otherwise interesting
> conversations.  Now *that's* trolling!
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
>> Wait, to be fair, Doug simply
>> 1 - Presented a pointer to an interesting article
>> 2 - Explained why the article was interesting to him
>>
>> Where's the problem?
>>
>> I'm amazed at the article and would love to see the stunts that the
>> program uses to increase entropy locally .. if I get it.
>>
>>-- Owen
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, glen ropella  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
>>> fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
>>> people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
>>> and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
>>> networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.
>>>
>>> No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
>>> degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
>>> do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
>>> playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.
>>>
>>> I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
>>> would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
>>> himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
>>> could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
>>> preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
>>> some bible or other.)
>>>
>>> Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
>>> possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
>>> whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
>>> just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
>>> exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>>> > Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the
>>> second
>>> > one is under control, so why delay my response.
>>> >
>>> > Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
>>> > referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced
>>> tendency
>>> > to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and
>>> (dare I
>>> > say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a
>>> random
>>> > sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
>>> > "entropic", and "forces".
>>> >
>>> > And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions
>>> cosmology as
>>> > one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to
>>> describe.
>>> >  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas,
>>> I
>>> > wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
>>> > clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
>>> > understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after
>>> that
>>> > instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe
>>> expanded
>>> > from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused
>>> that?)
>>> > are only sparsely understood.
>>> >
>>> > Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
>>> > bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the
>>> question
>>> > is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>>> >
>>> > But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
>>>

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
one is under control, so why delay my response.

Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
"entropic", and "forces".

And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
 Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
are only sparsely understood.

Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.

But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
(deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater


--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin
wrote:

> Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.
>
> Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:
>   http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf
>
> Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on
> the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there
> something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or
> complexity babble?
>
> The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of
> the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin
> of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed
> non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This
> mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of
> autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and
> Turvey <http://web.haskins.yale.edu/Reprints/HL0297.pdf>), (2000 
> Kauffman<http://www.amazon.com/Investigations-Stuart-A-Kauffman/dp/0195121058/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366685204&sr=8-2&keywords=investigations>),
> (2005 Jun and Hubler <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC545530/>and 
> 2011 Hubler
> et 
> al<http://icmt.illinois.edu/workshops/fluctuations2011/Talks/Hubler_Alfred_ICMT_May_2011.pdf>)
> and (2007 Morowitz and 
> Smith<http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplx.20191/abstract>)
> among others.
>
> I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper
> and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote
> "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and
> "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.
>
> These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:
>
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.region.new-mexico.santa-fe.friam/256
>
> Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you
> have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?
>
> --- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
> stephen.gue...@redfish.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855
> mobile: (505) 577-5828  fax: (505) 819-5952
> tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: (505) 216-6226
> redfish.com  |  simtable.com
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>>
>> http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html
>>
>> It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that
>> are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", &q

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin
wrote:

> Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.
>
> [...]
>


> Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you
> have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?
>

Never too busy to respond to you, G-man.  A slight time delay will be
incurred, however, as I have two proposals to get out the door this week.
But fear not, a saucy riposte is in the works...

--TrollBoi

>
> --- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
> stephen.gue...@redfish.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855
> mobile: (505) 577-5828  fax: (505) 819-5952
> tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: (505) 216-6226
> redfish.com  |  simtable.com
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>>
>> http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html
>>
>> It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that
>> are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex",
>> "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

I don't know about you, Pamela, but I've run clean out of popcorn, and I've
already re-crossed my knees twice.  Truth be known, I'm particularly keen
to follow the exposition on the meaning of the word "through".

Although "forces" is a close second, followed of course by "causal".

--Doug


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> +1
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Pamela McCorduck  wrote:
>
>> Popcorn is popped and buttered; knees are crossed in my Adirondack chair.
>> Carry on.
>>
>> P.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Douglas Roberts 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html
>>
>> It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that
>> are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex",
>> "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>  
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

+1


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Pamela McCorduck  wrote:

> Popcorn is popped and buttered; knees are crossed in my Adirondack chair.
> Carry on.
>
> P.
>
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Douglas Roberts  wrote:
>
>
> http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html
>
> It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that
> are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex",
> "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".
>
> --Doug
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

[Douglas Roberts]

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that
are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex",
"behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] This is truly thinking outside the box

[Douglas Roberts]

A (the only?) downside to not reading every FRIAM post.  Sorry for the dupe.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:26 AM, glen e. p. ropella
wrote:

>
> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/18/2013 05:36 AM:
> > Thinking along the lines of Moore's law, extrapolating it backwards.  I
> > love stories that are told across cosmological time scales:
> >
> >
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/
>
> We have to give credit where it's due! ;-)  Roger already posted this.
>
> Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/16/2013 08:44 AM:
> > I don't know if retrodicting an exponential growth curve back to
> > it's origin is technically an extrapolation, but aside from that
> > quibble this is very cute.
> >
> > Plot Moore's Law, it hits the origin in the 1960's when there were
> > zero transistors on chips.
> >
> > "A similar process works with scientific publications. Between 1990
> > and 1960, they doubled in number every 15 years or so. Extrapolating
> > this backwards gives the origin of scientific publication as 1710,
> > about the time of Isaac Newton."
> >
> > Now make some assumptions about the time of origin of various
> > genetic complexities evident in the history of life on earth, and
> > plot the growth curve for that. When was its origin?
> >
> >
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/
> >
> > http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.3381
> >
> > -- rec --
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com
> The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
> -- Milton Friedman
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] This is truly thinking outside the box

[Douglas Roberts]

The potential ability for bacteria spores to remain viable for millions of
years in cold, icy environments is discussed at length in the full paper.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Life Before Earth is definitely a fun, if not fascinating or correct,
> extrapolation.
>
> Isn't there a theory that indeed very hardy critters (foolhardy? :) could
> survive space travel and end up here in a blaze of light?
>
> Apparently we've some evidence of this in deep sea volcanos.
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> The full article: http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.3381
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, and I forgot to mention: it solves Fermi's paradox as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Roberts 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thinking along the lines of Moore's law, extrapolating it backwards.  I
>>>> love stories that are told across cosmological time scales:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Doug Roberts
>>>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>>>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Doug Roberts
>>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] This is truly thinking outside the box

[Douglas Roberts]

The full article: http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.3381

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Oh, and I forgot to mention: it solves Fermi's paradox as well.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> Thinking along the lines of Moore's law, extrapolating it backwards.  I
>> love stories that are told across cosmological time scales:
>>
>>
>> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] This is truly thinking outside the box

[Douglas Roberts]

Oh, and I forgot to mention: it solves Fermi's paradox as well.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Thinking along the lines of Moore's law, extrapolating it backwards.  I
> love stories that are told across cosmological time scales:
>
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] This is truly thinking outside the box

[Douglas Roberts]

Thinking along the lines of Moore's law, extrapolating it backwards.  I
love stories that are told across cosmological time scales:

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/513781/moores-law-and-the-origin-of-life/

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy

[Douglas Roberts]

+2

On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:40 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  A spontaneous Haiku inspired by a pithy friend's analysis of our
> discussion:
>
> *The Halting Problem**
> **Pretty Girl; Cocktail Party**
> **Knowing when to sto**p*
>
>
>   I don't think the beautiful woman would accept "go read the Wikipedia
> article" as am answer.
>
> N
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com ] On 
> Behalf Of Joseph Spinden
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:21 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy
>
> Owen is right that there are N! ways to map a set of N objects 1-1, onto
> another set of N objects. The first object can go to 1 of N objects, the
> next to 1 of N-1, etc. That's pretty standard.
>
> As to the Halting Problem, Why not start with the first few lines of the
> Wikipedia article ? That is simple and easy to understand.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> On 4/17/13 7:32 PM, lrudo...@meganet.net wrote:
>
>  Nick asks Owen:
>
>
>  So, Owen, you meet a beautiful woman at a cocktail party.  She seems
> intelligent, not a person to be fobbed off, but has no experience
> with either Maths or Computer Science.  She looks deep into your
> eyes, and asks "And what, Mr. Densmore, is the halting problem?"  You
> find yourself torn between two impulses.  One is to use the language
> that would give you credibility in the world of your mentors and
> colleagues.  But you realize that that language is going to be of
> absolutely no use to her, however ever much it might make you feel
>
>  authoritative to use it.  She expects an answer.
>
>  Yet you hesitate.  What language do you use?
>
> You would start, would you not, with the idea of a "problem."  A
> problem is some sort of difficulty that needs to be surmounted.
> There is a goal and something that thwarts that goal.  What are these
>
>  elements in the halting
>
>  PROBLEM?And why is HALTING a problem?
>
>  Nick, Owen may well disagree, but from my point of view you've already
> staked a dubious claim, by assuming (defensably) that "problem" in the
> MathEng phrase "Halting Problem" can and should be understood to be
> the same word as "problem" in your dialect of English.  But this is, I
>
>  think, a false assumption.  Now, at least, whatever the case was when the
> "Halting Problem"
>
>  got its original name (in MathGerman, I think), the meaning that
> "Halting Problem" conveys in MathEng is the same (or nearly the same)
> as that conveyed by "Halting Question".  "Problem" is there for
> historical reasons, just as, in geometric topology, a certain question
> of considerable interest and importance (which has been answered for
> fewer decades than has the "Halting Problem") is still called--even in
>
>  MathEng!--"the Hauptvermutung".  The framing in terms of "a goal" and
> "something that thwarts" is delusive.  There is, rather, "a question"
>
>  and--if you must be florid--a "quest for an answer".  Note, "*an*
> answer".  Of course, at an extreme level (I can't decide whether it's
> the highest or the lowest: I *hate* "level" talk precisely for this
> kind of reason) there is *the* answer ("no").  But that isn't, in
> itself, very interesting (any more: of course it was before it was
> known to be "the" answer).  *How* you get to "no" is interesting, and
> there are (by now) many different "hows" (for the "Halting Question", the
>
>  Hauptvermutung, Poincare's Conjecture, and so forth and so on), each of
> which is *an* answer (as are many of the "not hows").
>
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy

[Douglas Roberts]

In summary, Nick: the problem appears to be two-fold:

   1. The real day job is taking up every spare minute of my time, and
   2. you guys clearly love to discuss abstraction for the seemingly sole
   sake of discussion way, *way* more than I do.  I don't get that, in all
   truth, but you all seem to be enjoying it so much, the very last thing I'd
   ever want to do would be to dampen all that pleasure.

Seriously, please carry on.

--Doug



On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:36 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Steve, 
>
> ** **
>
> I am, I confess, rankled to be called abstrooos, because I try hard to be
> clear.  Bad as I am at it, it is a central passion of my life.  The
> temptation is always just to mouth the words that make one feel like an
> expert, rather than try out words that might actually communicate one’s
> understanding to a person who does not yet share it.  In this conversation,
> I see that a lot of people, yourself included, have been working very hard
> to be clear to one another, although it is very hard work.   Doug has
> little standing to criticize others for being abstrooos, because he has
> usually ducked any request that he explain something difficult to somebody
> who does not share his training.  He may hold the view …. And has, in fact,
> in at least one conversation defended the view … that talking to
> non-experts about matters in a field in which he holds expertise is simply
> not a useful exercise.  But that, I think, quickly leads to the idea that
> we should be governed by scientist-kings in all important matters to which
> scientific expertise is relevant.   That prospect is pretty scary to me.
> Unless one favors such a government, one really has no choice but to jump
> in the sty with the rest of us pigs and wallow around with us.  
>
> ** **
>
> Come on in, Doug.  The mud’s just fine!  What is the halting problem?  ***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve
> Smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:25 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy
>
> ** **
>
> Owen -
>
> Its starting to get lonely here!
>
> It is kind of a "dogpile" here...   with Doug now perched on top! 
>
> I am *sympathetic* with your desire to have the (mostly formal) language
> you are most familiar/comfortable with to apply more *directly* to one you
> may merely have romantic ideas about.   But romance does not an isomorphism
> make?
>
> Maybe we can reframe the discussion in a way that lets you out from under
> the crush...  Is it possible that you are asking something more like?
>
> *Why isn't the language of philosophical logic (ala Bertrand Russell)*
> sufficient for all philosophical discourse?  And if it is, can it not
> therefore be mapped completely (and obviously) into a specification
> suitable for automated processing by a computer program?   And who wouldn't
> want that kind of automated verifiability?
>
> Nick cornered you (with his breathy Marilyn Monroe voice and Groucho
> eyebrows) in the cocktail conversation.  I *think* his point was at least
> partly that even *IF* you could reduce all philosophical discourse to being
> equivalent to computer science, it wouldn't help make the conversation
> accessible to anyone without significant experience/training/exposure to
> the specialized language involved?
>
> Maybe the rest of us are just jealous if we imagine that you could
> "glibly" get away with such cocktail conversations (and by get away with, I
> mean successfully make the point to someone with limited domain-specific
> knowledge, not just get them to pretend to understand as they sidle off
> toward the exit or the group playing Twister in the corner)?  But that
> image (embellished by me of course) was Nick's, not yours so it isn't
> really fair to beat you with that one.
>
> In a nod to Doug (perched smugly on top of the pile), I have to
> acknowledge the precision of his choice of the term "abstruse"... I had to
> look it up (not because I didn't have a working knowledge, but because I
> wanted to see if he and I likely use it the same way):
> ab·struse  
>
> /abˈstro͞os/
>
> Adjective
>
> Difficult to understand; obscure.
>
> Synonyms
>
> obscure - recondite - deep - profound
>
> I have to admit to having always treated it as a portmanteau word formed
> roughly from "abstract" and "obtuse".   Not *quite* as generous as the
> definition given above:  "Annoyingly Insensitive" compounded with
> "dissociated from any specific instance".Wait... maybe that *is* his
> use?
> ob·tuse  
>
> /əbˈt(y)o͞os/
>
> Adjective
>
>1. Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
>2. Difficult to understand.
>
> Synonyms
>
> dull - blunt - dense - slow-witted
> 1ab·stract
>
> *adjective* \ab-ˈstrakt

Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy

[Douglas Roberts]

I believe we might actually, for a change, be cutting a bit closer to the
bone here.

-Doug


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

 :  "Annoyingly Insensitive" compounded with "dissociated from any specific
> instance".Wait... maybe that *is* his use?
>
> ob·tuse
> /əbˈt(y)o͞os/
>Adjective
>
>1. Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
>2. Difficult to understand.
>
>
>   Synonyms
>   dull - blunt - dense - slow-witted
>1ab·stract *adjective* \ab-ˈstrakt, ˈab-ˌ\
>
>  1
>  *a* *:* 
> disassociatedfrom any 
> specific instance  *abstract* entity>
>  *b* *:* difficult to understand *:* 
> abstruse
> <*abstract* problems>
>  *c* *:* insufficiently factual *:* 
> formal  only an *abstract* right>
>  2
>  *:* expressing a quality apart from an object  concrete, *poetry* is *abstract*>
>  3
>  *a* *:* dealing with a subject in its abstract aspects *:* 
> theoretical
> <*abstract* science>
>  *b* *:* impersonal ,
> detached   abstract* compassion of a surgeon — *Time*>
>  4
>  *:* having only 
> intrinsicform with 
> little or no attempt at pictorial representation or narrative
> content <*abstract* painting>
> — *ab·stract·ly* *adverb*
> — *ab·stract·ness* *noun*
>
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy

[Douglas Roberts]

Yes, there hasn't been an abstruse message in at least 10 whole minutes...
On Apr 17, 2013 6:37 PM, "Owen Densmore"  wrote:

> Its starting to get lonely here!
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>  !Owen -
>>
>> I can't wait for Marilyn Monroe (with a Groucho Marx moustache and cigar
>> and Nick Thompson eyebrows) to break into "Happy Birthday Mr. Computer
>> Guy!, Happy Birthday to you "
>>
>> I have to say (Owen) that this doesn't even come close to any reality I
>> live in:
>>
>>"The general problem os software verification is not solvable by
>> computer".  (sic)
>>
>> This would never work at any cocktail party I've been to...   I admit it
>> might be the simplest way of saying it that has a chance of being explained
>> in *one more* unpacking, but is more likely to just end the conversation
>> (young lady with Nick's eyebrows cocks her head and says "I think I hear my
>> stock broker calling!" as she walks off).  So maybe your approach to
>> progressive disclosure is more "recursive" than "iterative".   If her "Big
>> Bold Naivete" comes with her "Nick Thompson eyebrows", she might stick
>> around for another couple of rounds of unpacking.  Like "what in heaven's
>> name does 'software verification' have to do with anything, and why would I
>> *care* if you can do it with a computer or not?".
>>
>> In facte I would claim that *almost literally* anyone who understands
>> your postulation:
>>
>>"The general problem os software verification is not solvable by
>> computer".
>>
>> agrees with it, and anyone who doesn't probably has *virtually* no clue
>> what you are talking about?
>>
>> I admit that Nick (in Marilyn drag) has set you up a little by using
>> words like HALTING, suggesting the (s)he has a more familiar
>> vocabulary/lexicon than in fact (s)he probably does. I suppose anyone who
>> knows the technical definition of "halting" probably already understands
>> the phrase:
>>
>>"The general problem os software verification is not solvable by
>> computer".
>>
>> Beyond this, I don't understand why someone (Owen?) would understand this
>> phrase:
>>
>>"The general problem os software verification is not solvable by
>> computer".  (sic)
>>
>> yet would imagine that the rigorous methods of computer science would put
>> Philosophical questions to bed.   I'd suggest that *most* of Philosophy has
>> been hand-verifying programs written in logic, classifying them, and
>> creating an (ever growing?) bin of "quite possibly undecidable"   (but
>> non-trivial and interesting) statements. I sense that you (Owen) don't
>> agree/believe that this ever-growing bin is a *result* of the application
>> of very formal methods (although driven by intuition and executed in
>> psuedo-natural language) rather than *in spite of* the same?
>>
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>   “But Mr. Densmore:  what is the problem of software verification.”
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I would bat my eyes, by my eyebrows would get in the way.  
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Nick 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]
>> *On Behalf Of *Owen Densmore
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:03 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> *Cc:* Frank Wimberly
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>
>> 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> So, Owen, you meet a beautiful woman at a cocktail party.  She seems
>> intelligent, not a person to be fobbed off, but has no experience with
>> either Maths or Computer Science.  She looks deep into your eyes, and asks
>> “And what, Mr. Densmore, is the halting problem?”  You find yourself torn
>> between two impulses.  One is to use the language that would give you
>> credibility in the world of your mentors and colleagues.  But you realize
>> that that language is going to be of absolutely no use to her, however ever
>> much it might make you feel authoritative to use it.  She expects an
>> answer.  Yet you hesitate.  What language do you use? 
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> Your basic English.
>>
>>  You would start, would you not, with the idea of a “problem.”  A
>> problem is some sort of difficulty that needs to be surmounted.  There is a
>> goal and something that thwarts that goal.  What are these elements in the
>> halting PROBLEM?And why is HALTING a problem? 
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> Well, I do get asked a lot about computation and have found a
>> "progressive disclosure" approach best.  I'd start by saying exactly what
>> Michael Sipser, Intro to Theory of Computation, does: 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>  "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by
>> computer".  
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Usually that is clear enough but if more is needed, we progressively
>> discuss what software is and how it is modeled in computer theory.  Believe
>> it or not, I've had

Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.

[Douglas Roberts]

I don't know, I don't speak Haskell.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Could be!
>
> ** **
>
> Ok.  Now that that is behind us, what did the message mean? 
>
> ** **
>
> N
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 13, 2013 3:02 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Nick,
>
> ** **
>
> I surprised that you are not more conversant  in computer languages.
>  You're always, well, niggling about the meaning of this word, or that one
> in the context of this or that conversation.
>
> ** **
>
> With computer languages, there are very few ambiguities, contextual or
> other wise. Kind of like mathematics. For one as worried as you often
> appear to be about the true meaning of the written word, I would have
> thought that you would positively revel at the ability to express yourself
> with nearly absolute crystal clarity, no ambiguities whatsoever.
>
> ** **
>
> Could it be that you seek out the ambiguities that are ever present  in
> human languages to give yourself something to pounce upon and worry over,
> and to provide the opportunity to engage in nearly endless conversations?*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> --Doug
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Can anybody translate this for a non programmer person?
>
> N
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G.
> Daniels
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:10 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.***
> *
>
> On 4/12/13 5:40 PM, glen wrote:
> > Iteration is most aligned with stateful repetition. Recursion is most
> > aligned with stateless repetition.
> Purely functional constructs can capture iteration, though.
>
> $ cat foo.hs
> import Control.Monad.State
> import Control.Monad.Loops
>
> inc :: State Int Bool
> inc = do i <- get
>   put (i + 1)
>   return (i < 10)
>
> main = do
>putStrLn (show (runState (whileM inc get) 5)) $ ghc --make foo.hs $
> ./foo
> ([6,7,8,9,10],11)
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.

[Douglas Roberts]

Nick,

I surprised that you are not more conversant  in computer languages.
 You're always, well, niggling about the meaning of this word, or that one
in the context of this or that conversation.

With computer languages, there are very few ambiguities, contextual or
other wise. Kind of like mathematics. For one as worried as you often
appear to be about the true meaning of the written word, I would have
thought that you would positively revel at the ability to express yourself
with nearly absolute crystal clarity, no ambiguities whatsoever.

Could it be that you seek out the ambiguities that are ever present  in
human languages to give yourself something to pounce upon and worry over,
and to provide the opportunity to engage in nearly endless conversations?

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Can anybody translate this for a non programmer person?
>
> N
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G.
> Daniels
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:10 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.
>
> On 4/12/13 5:40 PM, glen wrote:
> > Iteration is most aligned with stateful repetition. Recursion is most
> > aligned with stateless repetition.
> Purely functional constructs can capture iteration, though.
>
> $ cat foo.hs
> import Control.Monad.State
> import Control.Monad.Loops
>
> inc :: State Int Bool
> inc = do i <- get
>   put (i + 1)
>   return (i < 10)
>
> main = do
>putStrLn (show (runState (whileM inc get) 5)) $ ghc --make foo.hs $
> ./foo
> ([6,7,8,9,10],11)
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.

[Douglas Roberts]

Nick,

I spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this between sips of
coffee this morning.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> D
>
> Does saying that a thing is in a state mean anything more than that you
> have tried to measure  something about that thing and that your measurement
> theory gives you confidence that you have been successful?  Or, perhaps,
> the switches on some box are set to some position or other.  And while I am
> asking dumb questions, to hard scientists (as opposed to biologists), does
> the word system mean anything more than whatever tf we happen to be talking
> about at the moment? 
>
> ** **
>
> N
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2013 9:25 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Oh shit. Nick's in a state again.
>
> On Apr 12, 2013 9:23 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" 
> wrote:
>
> I have a terrible time with the word "state";  how about analytical output?
>
>
> Otherwise we're good.
>
> Nick
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 5:40 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/12/2013 03:51 PM:
> > [NST ==>[...] Am I correct that you want to exclude for "tautological"
> > sequences of reasoning where the conclusion is entailed the premises
> > (or the answer in the question) but the path is so complex that we
> > cannot anticipate it?  <==NST]
>
> Yes.  On my more flippant days, I'll point out that some people claim
> unanticipatable, complicated deduction reduces to tautology.  And I may say
> it when I get frustrated at people who don't understand the difference
> between deduction and induction.
>
> But for the most part, yes.  A purely deductive system that can hit upon
> true, but surprising, theorems, is not merely tautology.
>
> > [NST ==>The first time you made this distinction, I couldn't quite get
> it.
> > Can you say a bit more?  It wold seem to me that recursion could
> > happen only once, but that iteration would require several instances.
> > So I can imagine an interation of recursions but not the reverse.  In
> > short, I don't know how talk this talk, yet.  <==NST]
>
> Both recursion and iteration can be infinite.  The difference lies the
> focus
> of the repetition. Recursion puts more focus on the I/O of the process,
> what
> comes out of any given application must make sense going in.  The input and
> output must be commensurate.
>
> Iteration puts more focus on the procedure, in particular the state, the
> conditions that obtain.  As long as the conditions still tolerate it, the
> iteration will continue, regardless of whether the I/O is meaningful.
> Iteration can wander more than recursion.  Recursion is less prone to the
> adage "garbage in => garbage out".  So, in your filter metaphor, if your
> filter stays the same, each time the fluid is pushed through, it will
> filter
> more of the same particles out of the fluid until there are none left (or
> the filter fills up).  With iteration, your filter might change each time
> it's used because of unforeseen effects.  For example, if your filter is
> supposed to extract particles
> 1-100 millimeters, but you use it so much that it starts to develop densely
> packed regions, then it may begin to filter only particles that are 1-100
> nanometers.
>
> The filter is a hysterical process.  It has memory.  If you replace the
> filter with a new one each time the fluid goes through it, then you've got
> recursion.  If you allow the filter to get progressively dirty, then you've
> got iteration.  Iteration is most aligned with stateful repetition.
> Recursion is most aligned with stateless repetition.
>
> > "P ^ M -> P" leaves out information.  So, saying "P" is not the same
> > as saying "P^M".[NST ==>AH!  So total entailment is not sufficient
> > to tautology, on your account.  I have to think about that.  So all
> > white swans are white is a tautology but (1) All swans are white (2)
> > this bird is a swan
> > (3) this bird is white is not.  <==NST]
>
> Not technically, no.  But if pressed, I would consider the con

Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.

[Douglas Roberts]

Oh shit. Nick's in a state again.
On Apr 12, 2013 9:23 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" 
wrote:

> I have a terrible time with the word "state";  how about analytical output?
>
>
> Otherwise we're good.
>
> Nick
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 5:40 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tautologies and other forms of circular reasoning.
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/12/2013 03:51 PM:
> > [NST ==>[...] Am I correct that you want to exclude for "tautological"
> > sequences of reasoning where the conclusion is entailed the premises
> > (or the answer in the question) but the path is so complex that we
> > cannot anticipate it?  <==NST]
>
> Yes.  On my more flippant days, I'll point out that some people claim
> unanticipatable, complicated deduction reduces to tautology.  And I may say
> it when I get frustrated at people who don't understand the difference
> between deduction and induction.
>
> But for the most part, yes.  A purely deductive system that can hit upon
> true, but surprising, theorems, is not merely tautology.
>
> > [NST ==>The first time you made this distinction, I couldn't quite get
> it.
> > Can you say a bit more?  It wold seem to me that recursion could
> > happen only once, but that iteration would require several instances.
> > So I can imagine an interation of recursions but not the reverse.  In
> > short, I don't know how talk this talk, yet.  <==NST]
>
> Both recursion and iteration can be infinite.  The difference lies the
> focus
> of the repetition. Recursion puts more focus on the I/O of the process,
> what
> comes out of any given application must make sense going in.  The input and
> output must be commensurate.
>
> Iteration puts more focus on the procedure, in particular the state, the
> conditions that obtain.  As long as the conditions still tolerate it, the
> iteration will continue, regardless of whether the I/O is meaningful.
> Iteration can wander more than recursion.  Recursion is less prone to the
> adage "garbage in => garbage out".  So, in your filter metaphor, if your
> filter stays the same, each time the fluid is pushed through, it will
> filter
> more of the same particles out of the fluid until there are none left (or
> the filter fills up).  With iteration, your filter might change each time
> it's used because of unforeseen effects.  For example, if your filter is
> supposed to extract particles
> 1-100 millimeters, but you use it so much that it starts to develop densely
> packed regions, then it may begin to filter only particles that are 1-100
> nanometers.
>
> The filter is a hysterical process.  It has memory.  If you replace the
> filter with a new one each time the fluid goes through it, then you've got
> recursion.  If you allow the filter to get progressively dirty, then you've
> got iteration.  Iteration is most aligned with stateful repetition.
> Recursion is most aligned with stateless repetition.
>
> > "P ^ M -> P" leaves out information.  So, saying "P" is not the same
> > as saying "P^M".[NST ==>AH!  So total entailment is not sufficient
> > to tautology, on your account.  I have to think about that.  So all
> > white swans are white is a tautology but (1) All swans are white (2)
> > this bird is a swan
> > (3) this bird is white is not.  <==NST]
>
> Not technically, no.  But if pressed, I would consider the context of the
> accusation.  When I'm talking to someone like you, who might actually
> listen
> to me, I'd say "no".  When talking to someone who just likes to hear
> themselves talk, I'd say "ok, sure, 1) all swans are white plus 2) this is
> a
> swan, therefore 3) this swan is white is close enough to a tautology for me
> to call it that for this conversation."
>
> But when/if I allow that, I'm on a slippery slope to calling all deduction
> tautological.
>
> > But, as I said above, there are some people who claim that all
> > deduction is tautology.  They would probably identify different types of
> tautology (e.g.
> > simple or minimal) versus a complicated (perhaps irreversible) deduction.
> >
> > [NST ==>OK.  We are on the same page.  So what term do you want to use?
> > <==NST]
>
> I see no problem with "deduction" or perhaps "inference", "grammatical
> transformation", etc.  Heck, I'd even be ok with "simulation", "numerical
> analysis", "play it forward", "let it roll", and "Deism".
>
> > [NST ==>how about
> > long and short tautologies?  Probably too whimsical.  OK.  How about ..
> > Tautologies for the narrow case, and analytical conclusions for the
> > deductions.  <==NST]
>
> I like "analytical conclusions" as a synonym for "complicated deduction".
> The only issue is the teleological sense I get from "conclusion", I
> suppose.
> How about "analytical end state"? ;-)
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Lobsterbacks attack the town again
>
>
> =

Re: [FRIAM] Tablet PCs and Microsoft

[Douglas Roberts]

No, that was the Nexus 4 phone. But thanks for asking.  :-(

--Doug

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Thanks, interesting. Is this the Nexus which caused all the trouble and
> hassle with Google?
>
> -J.
>
>
> Sent from Android
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Douglas Roberts 
> Date:
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tablet PCs and Microsoft
>
>
> This is what I have, I usually use it with my Nexus 7.  It works well:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054L8N7M/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> --Doug
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>>
>> Arrggh , but you can't  type on these iPads and Android tablets. It is of
>> course crisis, not crises. Can you connect suitable keyboards to Android
>> tablets?
>>
>> Jochen
>>
>> Sent from Samsung tablet
>>
>> Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>> I have bought a new Tablet PC this week, a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (10.1)
>> running Android. What kind of tablets do you use? I assume iPads ? I heard
>> Microsoft slides in a crises because Windows 8 is not selling well among
>> business customers and normal consumers buy iPads or Android tablets
>> instead of Microsoft PCs.
>>
>> Jochen
>>
>> Sent from Samsung tablet
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Tablet PCs and Microsoft

[Douglas Roberts]

This is what I have, I usually use it with my Nexus 7.  It works well:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054L8N7M/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

--Doug

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:

>
> Arrggh , but you can't  type on these iPads and Android tablets. It is of
> course crisis, not crises. Can you connect suitable keyboards to Android
> tablets?
>
> Jochen
>
> Sent from Samsung tablet
>
> Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> I have bought a new Tablet PC this week, a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (10.1)
> running Android. What kind of tablets do you use? I assume iPads ? I heard
> Microsoft slides in a crises because Windows 8 is not selling well among
> business customers and normal consumers buy iPads or Android tablets
> instead of Microsoft PCs.
>
> Jochen
>
> Sent from Samsung tablet
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness

[Douglas Roberts]

"Explanation …does not imply prediction."

Got it. In between beers I'm positive this will come up in the

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug, Steve, 
>
> ** **
>
> I am a little confused about which of you is beering with Epstein, but
> whichever one of you it is, please take along a copy of
> http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/12/1/9.html and ask him what the hell he
> was drinking when he wrote, "Explanation …does not imply prediction." If
> you do download the article, please disregard the abstract which is missing
> a key word in its last line.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2013 8:42 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness
>
> ** **
>
> "Equilibrium", and "Josh Epstein" are not two terms that normally
> correlate with each other.
>
> -Doug
>
> On Apr 11, 2013 8:39 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:
>
> Doug -
>
>
> I'll be eating ribs with Josh next month in Austin, I'll try to remember
> to ask him his opinion on this.
> Upon consideration: no I won't. We'll be eating ribs and drinking beer and
> having fun.  Scientific philosophical discussion will not even emerge.
>
> Get it? Emerge.
>
> In my experience philosophical discussions "erupt" rather than emerge...
> drinking beer, eating ribs, having fun, waxing philosophical all tend to
> follow a pattern of punctuated equilibrium...
>
> - Steve
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness

[Douglas Roberts]

"Explanation …does not imply prediction."

Got it. In between beers I'm positive this will come up in the conversation.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug, Steve, 
>
> ** **
>
> I am a little confused about which of you is beering with Epstein, but
> whichever one of you it is, please take along a copy of
> http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/12/1/9.html and ask him what the hell he
> was drinking when he wrote, "Explanation …does not imply prediction." If
> you do download the article, please disregard the abstract which is missing
> a key word in its last line.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2013 8:42 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness
>
> ** **
>
> "Equilibrium", and "Josh Epstein" are not two terms that normally
> correlate with each other.
>
> -Doug
>
> On Apr 11, 2013 8:39 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:
>
> Doug -
>
>
> I'll be eating ribs with Josh next month in Austin, I'll try to remember
> to ask him his opinion on this.
> Upon consideration: no I won't. We'll be eating ribs and drinking beer and
> having fun.  Scientific philosophical discussion will not even emerge.
>
> Get it? Emerge.
>
> In my experience philosophical discussions "erupt" rather than emerge...
> drinking beer, eating ribs, having fun, waxing philosophical all tend to
> follow a pattern of punctuated equilibrium...
>
> - Steve
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness

[Douglas Roberts]

"Equilibrium", and "Josh Epstein" are not two terms that normally correlate
with each other.

-Doug
On Apr 11, 2013 8:39 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:

> Doug -
>
>>
>> I'll be eating ribs with Josh next month in Austin, I'll try to remember
>> to ask him his opinion on this.
>> Upon consideration: no I won't. We'll be eating ribs and drinking beer
>> and having fun.  Scientific philosophical discussion will not even emerge.
>>
>> Get it? Emerge.
>>
> In my experience philosophical discussions "erupt" rather than emerge...
> drinking beer, eating ribs, having fun, waxing philosophical all tend to
> follow a pattern of punctuated equilibrium...
>
> - Steve
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

Because everybody follows the recommendations of the ornithologists to the
letter.



I'm fun at parties too.

-Douug
 On Apr 11, 2013 7:49 PM, "Gary Schiltz"  wrote:

> Ooh, ooh, a comment about birds, step aside, let me through please :-)
>
> 
> Actually, ornithologists provide a lot of value to birds, in that they
> help understand their behavior, life history, requirements, etc, thus
> helping with their conservation.
> 
>
> ;; Gary
>
> On Apr 11, 2013, at 8:27 PM, Russell Standish 
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 01:30:44PM -0600, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> >> This phrase struck me, and this will sound like a dumb question, but
> humor
> >> me: What is a philosopher of science? And what value do they provide?
> >> Serious question.
> >>
> >
> > About as much value as ornithologists provide to birds, I expect.
> (Channeling
> > Dick Feynmann here...).
> >
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Whirled Happiness

[Douglas Roberts]

When you're simulating all 370 million residents of the US in a pandemic
influenza model, all of the parameters listed below are, well,
represented parametrically. The idea is to get a gross measure of trends,
and relative assessments of the effectiveness of various intervention
strategies.  Not to get a "correct" answer, because as Josh Epstein would
no doubt say, there is no correct answer.

I'll be eating ribs with Josh next month in Austin, I'll try to remember to
ask him his opinion on this.

--Doug

Upon consideration: no I won't. We'll be eating ribs and drinking beer and
having fun.  Scientific philosophical discussion will not even emerge.

Get it? Emerge.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Ron/Merle -
>
>
>
> Is there a model of sorts for "contagious happiness"?   I also assume some
> of those here who use models of contagious disease might have some
> meta-models to offer (Doug, show your hand)?  Are there reservoir
> populations?  What are the non-human vectors (pets?).   Is cynicism a
> prophylactic?  Does happiness (and cynicism) act like quorum
> sensing/quenching (as with biology and/or hive populations?)  Are there
> memetic equivalents to the modes of gene/protein expression?
>
>
>
> - Steve
>
>  Merle,
> I'm the developer of www.WorldHappinessMeter.com  (WHM).  How can I be
> involved in the Happiness Santa Fe launch on Saturday?  I notice from your
> site that an in-depth survey is part of the festivities.  One planned
> addition to WHM is a survey in order to gather data worldwide to save the
> need for boots on the ground.
>
>  Ron
>
> --
> Ron Newman, Founder
> MyIdeatree.com 
> The World Happiness Meter 
>
>  On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
>
>> Roger,
>>
>>  Righto!  We launch "Happiness Santa Fe" on Saturday ( go to our
>> website, the Center for Emergent Diplomacy, or just go to Happiness Santa
>> Fe for a calendar of events). We've had many recent  conversations about
>> how to encourage conditions for a shift in our mental models from
>> consumerism and inequality toward compassion and generosity.
>>
>>  When I teach Complexity at Upaya in the Buddhist chaplaincy program I
>> usually suggest that compassion is an emergent property of the biggest
>> system of all--our brains.  So I say, hey guys, just meditate more!  We
>> have hard neuroscience on how that works.  But how do we change the initial
>> conditions for a collective response?  Perhaps one way is to  measure human
>> happiness and well-being differently by expanding GDP to include ecological
>> and social indicators as the Bhutanese have been trying to do for decades.
>>  We tend to value what we measure.
>>
>>  You know, dear Roger, that I follow the research carefully.  Thanks for
>> this link.  You guys study--we act and put it on the ground!!
>>
>>  Merle
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>> There's an intriguing book review in Science this week:
>>>
>>>  *Studying Human Behavior* How Scientists Investigate Aggression and
>>> Sexuality *by Helen E. Longino* University of Chicago Press, Chicago,
>>> 2013. 261 pp. S75. ISBN 9780226492872. Paper, $25, £16. ISBN 9780226492889.
>>>
>>>  http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6129/146.1.full?rss=1
>>>
>>>  The claim is that there is not and will not be a dominant paradigm for
>>> researching human behavior, there are multiple ways of establishing causes
>>> for behavior and that's just the way it is.
>>>
>>>  So not only do phenomena worth studying emerge at different levels of
>>> organization, but the emerging phenomena at a level of organization are
>>> amenable to different disciplines of study which may all be judged
>>> "scientific" by a philosopher of science.
>>>
>>>  So, what's scientific evidence now?
>>>
>>>  -- rec --
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>> me...@emergentdiplomacy.org
>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>> skype:  merlelefkoff
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

Now *that* is a good answer.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Russell Standish wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 01:30:44PM -0600, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> > This phrase struck me, and this will sound like a dumb question, but
> humor
> > me: What is a philosopher of science? And what value do they provide?
> > Serious question.
> >
>
> About as much value as ornithologists provide to birds, I expect.
> (Channeling
> Dick Feynmann here...).
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

Well, Nick, as long as you are talking along evolutionary time scales,
eventually we will all be able to tell right from wrong as well.

My recommendation is to not hold your breath on this, though.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> The Village Pragmatist believes that in time, perhaps an extremely long
> time, that scientists will converge on the right method, just as they will
> converge on the final opinion and that, by definition, will be the Truth.
>  (Glen – that would be a tautology)  
>
> ** **
>
> But I think, also, that  the Village Pragmatist might question the notion
> of a single right method for a field as diverse as psychology.  Method for
> doing what? The VP would ask.  What is it that we are hoping to do with our
> method?  
>
> ** **
>
> On Peirce’s account, knowledge is about self control … really, about the
> control of the environment that is impinging on us.  When we do *this*,
> what comes back at us?   If I want *that* to happen, what do I do?   So,
> scientists will converge on is a  particular relation between how the
> environment will respond when we poke it in a particular way and any
> conception that stands for that relation ….. like the periodic table, for
> instance.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
> Critchlow
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:42 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science
>
> ** **
>
> The issue here is that we have a variety of ways of studying human
> behavior each of which claims to be good science done by good scientists.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> One philosopher of science (Kuhn) says the study of human behavior is
> immature, when it's really good science it will settle on the correct
> method.
>
> ** **
>
> Another philosopher of science (Longino) says maybe there isn't a single
> correct method, maybe there are multiple correct methods.
>
> ** **
>
> The scientist says my method is the correct method!  Fund me!
>
> ** **
>
> The popular science journalist writes it up as a horse race or prize fight
> or political campaign.
>
> ** **
>
> -- rec --
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Roger, 
>
>  
>
> I guess my hackles went up a bit at the notion that something gets to be
> scientific based on the judgment of a philosopher of science.  Most of the
> philosci I have read has been based on trying to get at the essence of what
> scientists do when they are successful.  
>
>  
>
> Every scientist gets taught a lot of philosophy of science in their
> introductory courses … the particular scientific ideology that infuses
> their specialty.  Much of this is harmless within the field, but turns out
> to be absolute junk when it is exported to other fields, as when
> psychologist have physics envy.  There is a lot of this sort of ideology
> that floats around the table at FRIAM.  There is something about having
> this sort of thing inflicted on one in graduate school that makes one want
> to inflict it on others.  So one of the values of having a good philosopher
> of science around  for is to undermine the assertions of specialists in one
> field or another, or of one school or another within a field, that there is
> one, and only one way, to do science.  An example was Joshua Epstein’s
> assertion, some years back, that “Good theories don’t predict”, which
> apparently was gospel in the simulation crowd, and flaming nonsense
> elsewhere.   
>
>  
>
> The other peril in all of this is the scientist who asserts that he has no
> philosophy … he just does good science.  
>
>  
>
> Nick ****
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
> Critchlow
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2013 2:40 PM
>
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Douglas Roberts 
> wrote:
>
>  
>
> >> So not only do phenomena worth studying emerge at different levels of
> organization, 
>
> >> but the emerging phenomena at a level of organization are amenable to
> different disciplines of study 
>
> >> which may all be judged "scientific"  by a philosopher of science.
>
>  
>
> This phrase str

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

I've made him gun-shy, Nick.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Steve, 
>
> ** **
>
> Why presuppose that the question is anything but a question?
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve
> Smith
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2013 2:39 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science
>
> ** **
>
> Doug -
>
> This phrase struck me, and this will sound like a dumb question, but humor
> me: What is a philosopher of science? And what value do they provide?
> Serious question.
>
> Straight out of Wikipedia (for convenience, not because it is necessarily
> an infallible authority):
>
> The *philosophy of science* is concerned with all the assumptions,
> foundations, methods ,
> implications of science , and with
> the use and merit of science. This discipline sometimes overlaps
> metaphysics , 
> ontologyand
> epistemology , viz., when it
> explores whether scientific results comprise a study of 
> truth
> .
>
>
> I know you call this a serious question, but I think it might be
> argumentative, restating your declaration/assumption that philosophy has no
> value, at least not in the context of science?  I think you are using a
> fallacious definition of the term philosophy perhaps.
>
> Also out of Wikipedia (same caveats):
>
> *Philosophy* is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as
> those connected with reality ,
> existence , 
> knowledge,
> values , 
> reason,
> mind , and 
> language
> .[1] 
> [2]Philosophy
>  is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by
> its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational
> argument 
> .[3]In
>  more casual speech, by extension, "philosophy" can refer to "the most
> basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group".
>
> I know you well enough to believe that if you accept these definitions (of
> philosophy and philosophy of science) that you would acknowledge the value
> of both.  Can you confirm or deny that apprehension?   I suspect your
> suspicion of the terms/fields and their utility is based on a different
> understanding of the term(s).   I suspect you use the term "philosophy"
> roughly in the same way I use the term "wanking".
>
> I will acknowledge that many with limited or no formal training in science
> will resort to all sorts of specious rhetoric or sophistry to make claims
> about reality.  However, I would claim that a similar number of us (you in
> this case?) use the term "Philosophy" roughly to describe the very same
> *small subset* of discourse/thinking.
>
> Philosophy in general and philosophy of science in particular frame the
> relevance of science and it's limits.  Many of the tools of science
> (mathematics, logic, formal reasoning) are not *part of Science*.   Perhaps
> you use the term "philosophy" to mean all parts of philosophy that are NOT
> directly relevant to science (e.g. theology for sure, epistomology maybe,
> aesthetics probably, non-physical cosmology, ... etc.) perhaps you use
> "science" to describe science itself plus all of the parts of philosophy of
> direct relevance (physical cosmology, logic, mathematics, and possibly
> parts of language, epistimology, ontology and metaphysics).  This use of
> "science" would then of course be tautological.
>
> I'm sure there are others here more well educated in Philosophy than I.
> I'm sure I have made at least a few mis-statements or mis-implications in
> this shoot-from-the hip response.
>
> I also think there are bigger implications to the discussion about Science
> vs Philosophy.  Tory has brought up some of the issues of "Philosophy as
> studied/presented by the white male patriarchy" which opens own issues and
> I suspect some of our other more non-Western-leaning members (Dave Wade,
> Carl Tollander, Rich Murray, Sarbajit Roy, ???) may have *yet another*
> perspective to add.
>
> - Steve
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at 

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

Relying to Steve & Roger:

No, for once I was not being argumentative, it was the "of science" part I
was questioning.  As compared, say, to a philosopher of religion, or
morality, or human psychology.  Continuing to use our favorite reference
source, Wikipedia gives this definition for "Philosopher" (which, as it
turns out, does not really differ substantively from mine):

A *philosopher* is a person <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person> with an
extensive knowledge <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge> of
philosophy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy> who
uses this knowledge in their work, typically to solve philosophical
problems<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_philosophy>.
Philosophy is concerned with studying the subject matter of fields such as
aesthetics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics>,
ethics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics>
, epistemology <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology>,
logic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic>
, metaphysics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics>, as well as social
philosophy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social> and political
philosophy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy>
.


My definition of *philosopher*, btw, is "One who thinks deeply about
important stuff."

Back to the original question, what benefits does a Philosopher *of
Science* provide.
 Does he aid people like, say, George Smoot (Noble Prize in Physics, 2006)
do cosmology better? Or, does he help a computer scientist develop better
code or systems designs?

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
> >> So not only do phenomena worth studying emerge at different levels of
> organization,
> >> but the emerging phenomena at a level of organization are amenable to
> different disciplines of study
> >> which may all be judged "scientific"  by a philosopher of science.
>
> This phrase struck me, and this will sound like a dumb question, but humor
>> me: What is a philosopher of science? And what value do they provide?
>> Serious question.
>
>
> The author of the book is a faculty member at Stanford University who
> identifies as a philosopher of science.  She wrote a book.   She presumably
> teaches classes, writes scholarly articles, and reviews the writings of
> other scholars.
>
> She identifies the different ways of studying human behavior as equally
> "scientific", while the popular science literature, the grant competition
> process, and the disciplines themselves tend to treat the alternatives as
> mutually exclusive possible truths, in a conflict from which one shall
> emerge triumphant.
>
> So which question is the serious one?  Taken together, you are expressing
> skepticism of philosophy by asking a question about values. That is as
> close to the origins of western philosophy as you can get without directly
> quoting Socrates.
>
> -- rec --
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] pluralism in science

[Douglas Roberts]

This phrase struck me, and this will sound like a dumb question, but humor
me: What is a philosopher of science? And what value do they provide?
Serious question.

--Doug


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> There's an intriguing book review in Science this week:
>
> *Studying Human Behavior* How Scientists Investigate Aggression and
> Sexuality *by Helen E. Longino* University of Chicago Press, Chicago,
> 2013. 261 pp. S75. ISBN 9780226492872. Paper, $25, £16. ISBN 9780226492889.
>
> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6129/146.1.full?rss=1
>
> The claim is that there is not and will not be a dominant paradigm for
> researching human behavior, there are multiple ways of establishing causes
> for behavior and that's just the way it is.
>
> So not only do phenomena worth studying emerge at different levels of
> organization, but the emerging phenomena at a level of organization are
> amenable to different disciplines of study which may all be judged
> "scientific" by a philosopher of science.
>
> So, what's scientific evidence now?
>
> -- rec --
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage

[Douglas Roberts]

I've always said that.  Ask anybody, they'll tell you. They'll say, that
Roberts guy is *always* saying,* "it is unfortunate that enthymeme
resolution is treated as a kind of presumptive meaning determination". *

It fact, it's been pointed out to that I say this so often, it's almost
become my meme. So I think I'll stop saying it.

--Doug

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:32 AM, glen e. p. ropella
wrote:

>
>
> ... it is unfortunate that enthymeme resolution is treated as a kind of
> presumptive meaning determination. -- Gabbay & Woods in "The Reach of
> Abduction"
>
>
> --
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Little Corporate Lies; Still Naive After All These Years

[Douglas Roberts]

A big brown chunk, as it turns out.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

> Doug -
>
>  Actually, Steve, it has been a good experience.  I lost a modicum of
>> naivete that was not doing me any favors.
>>
> Good...  we were *all* worried that you were too naive!  Of course mostly
> I was just trying to have a little fun on your tab.
>
> How much is a modicum?   More than a smidge and less than a dollop?
>
> - Steve
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Little Corporate Lies; Still Naive After All These Years

[Douglas Roberts]

Actually, Steve, it has been a good experience.  I lost a modicum
of naivete that was not doing me any favors.

--Doug

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Somebody!  Buy Doug (with a bone) a new Phone!  I think he's starting to
> harm himself with this one!
>
>
> http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-fine-art-of-corporate-fibbing.html
>
>  --
>  *Doug Roberts *
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] Little Corporate Lies; Still Naive After All These Years

[Douglas Roberts]

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-fine-art-of-corporate-fibbing.html

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage

[Douglas Roberts]

It will overwrite files with the same name.  You can set with a parameter
whether it will do a mirror-like sync or to instead leave files that have
been deleted on source directory on the backup directory.  To delete
extraneous files on the destination directory use the --del parameter.

--Doug

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> No, the odds *have gotten *me. I am assuming that rsync overwrites past
> history, so it saves less than a time machine. Is that correct?
>
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Douglas Roberts  wrote:
>
> Did I fail to mention that I keep backups of my backups?  I did, didn't
> I...
>
> I am not paranoid, the odds *are* out to get you.
>
> --Doug
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Is your 3TB drive off-site? Offsite backup is the problem to be
>> solved, IMHO.
>> 2. I imagine that the probability that your 3TB drive will be alive and
>> functional in a year is less than 99.9% (not that I fully
>> believe Amazon's claims, but they do monitor their disks and move the data
>> when the error rate hits a certain threshold).
>> 3. If my data is off-site, I want it encrypted. I'm not sure how to do
>> that with rsync. We do use rsync nightly, however, to update our CTAN
>> mirror.
>>
>> --Barry
>>
>>
>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Douglas Roberts 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just curious why you Mac guys are buying backup systems, when there is a
>> perfectly good way to use rsync. Here's my nightly backup script, which
>> currently sends my nightly incrementals to a cheap 3TB USB3 external drive:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>>
>> # Just in case they are not mounted
>> /bin/mount /mnt/3TB >&/dev/null
>> /bin/mount /mnt/Movies >&/dev/null
>> /bin/mount /mnt/Video >&/dev/null
>>
>>
>> #
>> #/home/roberts
>> #
>> echo "Starting /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>> date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>>
>> /usr/bin/rsync -vurltD --exclude-from=/home/roberts/.rsync/exclude
>> /home/roberts /mnt/3TB >>/home/roberts/backup2.log 2>&1
>>
>>
>> echo "Completed /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>> date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>>  My $.02 on Time Machine.
>>>
>>> I bought a 2TB time machine about 4? years ago and set up two MB Pro's
>>> with it.  Other than a little irritation from accidental reboots on the
>>> device (connected to the same power strip as my flakey motorola internet
>>> service, yielding a reboot via powerstrip toggle sometimes), I've had
>>> nothing but good look.
>>>
>>> I've only had one occasion to do a full restore in an emergency and it
>>> worked like a charm.. I *have* used it to migrate between MB Pros and an
>>> iMac about 5 or 6 times in the same period.  That has worked flawlessly as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> It might be prudent to back that up somewhere offsite, but I'm just not
>>> that prudent and now am spoiled to my regular "backup" and potential
>>> "restores" being almost entirely invisible to me.  I can't tell from the
>>> discussion on the list how "transparent" the true cloud services are,
>>> unfortunately I'm pretty sure my totally lame internet would make *restore*
>>> a long and painful experience.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>> I have one data point. One of our Macs near Seattle had a drive fail, so
>>> I had an employee take it to an Apple store. The 'genius' was very happy
>>> when he saw the Time Machine, and, I think, nothing was lost.
>>>
>>>  About the depth of cloud backups: I now use Arq on the Mac. The
>>> backups are in Amazon's S3, and the frequency is settable: I have one done
>>> every hour. You set a limit on how much space you want to use -- just as a
>>> Time Machine has a fixed size -- and once you hit that limit, it will
>>> overwrite the oldest versions as necessary. Also the paid version of
>>> DropBox keeps at least some history. For saving a Time Machine offsite,
>>> Amazons Glacier storage is one cent a gigabyte per month, so your 150
>>> gigabytes would be $18 per year. They really hit you with transfer charges
>

Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage

[Douglas Roberts]

Did I fail to mention that I keep backups of my backups?  I did, didn't I...

I am not paranoid, the odds *are* out to get you.

--Doug

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> 1. Is your 3TB drive off-site? Offsite backup is the problem to be solved,
> IMHO.
> 2. I imagine that the probability that your 3TB drive will be alive and
> functional in a year is less than 99.9% (not that I fully believe
> Amazon's claims, but they do monitor their disks and move the data when the
> error rate hits a certain threshold).
> 3. If my data is off-site, I want it encrypted. I'm not sure how to do
> that with rsync. We do use rsync nightly, however, to update our CTAN
> mirror.
>
> --Barry
>
>
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Douglas Roberts  wrote:
>
> Just curious why you Mac guys are buying backup systems, when there is a
> perfectly good way to use rsync. Here's my nightly backup script, which
> currently sends my nightly incrementals to a cheap 3TB USB3 external drive:
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> # Just in case they are not mounted
> /bin/mount /mnt/3TB >&/dev/null
> /bin/mount /mnt/Movies >&/dev/null
> /bin/mount /mnt/Video >&/dev/null
>
>
> #
> #/home/roberts
> #
> echo "Starting /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
> date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>
> /usr/bin/rsync -vurltD --exclude-from=/home/roberts/.rsync/exclude
> /home/roberts /mnt/3TB >>/home/roberts/backup2.log 2>&1
>
>
> echo "Completed /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
> date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>  My $.02 on Time Machine.
>>
>> I bought a 2TB time machine about 4? years ago and set up two MB Pro's
>> with it.  Other than a little irritation from accidental reboots on the
>> device (connected to the same power strip as my flakey motorola internet
>> service, yielding a reboot via powerstrip toggle sometimes), I've had
>> nothing but good look.
>>
>> I've only had one occasion to do a full restore in an emergency and it
>> worked like a charm.. I *have* used it to migrate between MB Pros and an
>> iMac about 5 or 6 times in the same period.  That has worked flawlessly as
>> well.
>>
>> It might be prudent to back that up somewhere offsite, but I'm just not
>> that prudent and now am spoiled to my regular "backup" and potential
>> "restores" being almost entirely invisible to me.  I can't tell from the
>> discussion on the list how "transparent" the true cloud services are,
>> unfortunately I'm pretty sure my totally lame internet would make *restore*
>> a long and painful experience.
>>
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>> I have one data point. One of our Macs near Seattle had a drive fail, so
>> I had an employee take it to an Apple store. The 'genius' was very happy
>> when he saw the Time Machine, and, I think, nothing was lost.
>>
>>  About the depth of cloud backups: I now use Arq on the Mac. The backups
>> are in Amazon's S3, and the frequency is settable: I have one done every
>> hour. You set a limit on how much space you want to use -- just as a Time
>> Machine has a fixed size -- and once you hit that limit, it will overwrite
>> the oldest versions as necessary. Also the paid version of DropBox keeps at
>> least some history. For saving a Time Machine offsite, Amazons Glacier
>> storage is one cent a gigabyte per month, so your 150 gigabytes would be
>> $18 per year. They really hit you with transfer charges if you try to read
>> a large amount in a short time, but since that presumably happens only when
>> your Mac and your time machine have both been roasted in a fire, you
>> probably will be happy to pay them. Unfortunately 150 gigs is not enough
>> for most time machines.
>>
>>  --Barry
>>
>>
>>  On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:42 AM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <
>> rob...@cirrillian.com> wrote:
>>
>> So has anyone successfully restored an entire system from the Cloud (or a
>> Time Machine come to think of it)?  How easy was it?  Any statistics on
>> success rate?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>

Re: [FRIAM] Cloud storage

[Douglas Roberts]

Just curious why you Mac guys are buying backup systems, when there is a
perfectly good way to use rsync. Here's my nightly backup script, which
currently sends my nightly incrementals to a cheap 3TB USB3 external drive:

#!/bin/bash

# Just in case they are not mounted
/bin/mount /mnt/3TB >&/dev/null
/bin/mount /mnt/Movies >&/dev/null
/bin/mount /mnt/Video >&/dev/null


#
#/home/roberts
#
echo "Starting /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log

/usr/bin/rsync -vurltD --exclude-from=/home/roberts/.rsync/exclude
/home/roberts /mnt/3TB >>/home/roberts/backup2.log 2>&1


echo "Completed /home/roberts backup" >>/home/roberts/backup2.log
date >>/home/roberts/backup2.log




On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  My $.02 on Time Machine.
>
> I bought a 2TB time machine about 4? years ago and set up two MB Pro's
> with it.  Other than a little irritation from accidental reboots on the
> device (connected to the same power strip as my flakey motorola internet
> service, yielding a reboot via powerstrip toggle sometimes), I've had
> nothing but good look.
>
> I've only had one occasion to do a full restore in an emergency and it
> worked like a charm.. I *have* used it to migrate between MB Pros and an
> iMac about 5 or 6 times in the same period.  That has worked flawlessly as
> well.
>
> It might be prudent to back that up somewhere offsite, but I'm just not
> that prudent and now am spoiled to my regular "backup" and potential
> "restores" being almost entirely invisible to me.  I can't tell from the
> discussion on the list how "transparent" the true cloud services are,
> unfortunately I'm pretty sure my totally lame internet would make *restore*
> a long and painful experience.
>
>
> - Steve
>
> I have one data point. One of our Macs near Seattle had a drive fail, so I
> had an employee take it to an Apple store. The 'genius' was very happy when
> he saw the Time Machine, and, I think, nothing was lost.
>
>  About the depth of cloud backups: I now use Arq on the Mac. The backups
> are in Amazon's S3, and the frequency is settable: I have one done every
> hour. You set a limit on how much space you want to use -- just as a Time
> Machine has a fixed size -- and once you hit that limit, it will overwrite
> the oldest versions as necessary. Also the paid version of DropBox keeps at
> least some history. For saving a Time Machine offsite, Amazons Glacier
> storage is one cent a gigabyte per month, so your 150 gigabytes would be
> $18 per year. They really hit you with transfer charges if you try to read
> a large amount in a short time, but since that presumably happens only when
> your Mac and your time machine have both been roasted in a fire, you
> probably will be happy to pay them. Unfortunately 150 gigs is not enough
> for most time machines.
>
>  --Barry
>
>
>  On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:42 AM, "Robert J. Cordingley" 
> wrote:
>
> So has anyone successfully restored an entire system from the Cloud (or a
> Time Machine come to think of it)?  How easy was it?  Any statistics on
> success rate?
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

I'm deeply insulted that my church was not given mentioned.  After all, He
boiled for our sins.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Apropos of nothing, I was looking at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups the other day and
> discovered that the Rastafari outnumber the Unitarians by about 70,000
> adherents.  They are locked in battle for the last place on that particular
> list, though they both outnumber the Scientologists.
>
> And the article notes that most of the numbers are more or less made up.
>
> -- rec --
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

Yep, I think 90% is in the ballpark, but it's not the percentage as much as
the trend which bothers me. That, plus the fact that "we" are just
passively allowing the degradation of education, and the teaching of
critical thought to continue as is in Texas, and other parts of the
religion-dominated regions of our country.

Don't see the religion factor?  Look again.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>
>And it will be *we* who let it happen if/as/when we get *more*
> screwed.   Actually I don't feel screwed.  I feel like maybe 90% of our
> population is screwed... and while that is inconvenient and sad, I feel I
> have escaped most of it.  Haven't you (Doug)?
>
> - Steve
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

This was big news last summer. Also, one cannot fail to recognize that it
was the good Texas Christians who were behind the rejection of teaching
critical thinking skills.  A thinly-veiled move to prevent losing any Texas
Good Christians to the critical thought process.

--Doug


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> As I said: we're screwed.  And we let it happen.
>
> --Doug
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Robert J. Cordingley <
> rob...@cirrillian.com> wrote:
>
>>  So how do we fund/organize an education system *for all* that teaches
>> critical thinking skills (if it's possible)?  Especially  when faced with
>> such phenomenon (from July 2012) as described in
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html(PS
>>  I haven't fact checked this).
>>
>> -- Robert C
>>
>>
>> On 4/6/13 11:33 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>>
>> That would suggest the willingness to apply rational cognition to the
>> issue, which, as you suggest, is the whole point.
>>
>>  --Doug
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>> Lather, apply Occam's razor, repeat.
>>>
>>>  -- rec --
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
>>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails.  In fact,
>>>> there is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t
>>>> have anything about chemtrails.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gotta stop thinking about this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>>>> Roberts
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] just the facts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Doug Roberts
>>>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>>>
>>>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>>>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> *
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

As I said: we're screwed.  And we let it happen.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Robert J. Cordingley  wrote:

>  So how do we fund/organize an education system *for all* that teaches
> critical thinking skills (if it's possible)?  Especially  when faced with
> such phenomenon (from July 2012) as described in
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html(PS
>  I haven't fact checked this).
>
> -- Robert C
>
>
> On 4/6/13 11:33 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
> That would suggest the willingness to apply rational cognition to the
> issue, which, as you suggest, is the whole point.
>
>  --Doug
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> Lather, apply Occam's razor, repeat.
>>
>>  -- rec --
>>
>>
>>  On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails.  In fact,
>>> there is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t
>>> have anything about chemtrails.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gotta stop thinking about this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>>> Roberts
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:27 AM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] just the facts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Doug Roberts
>>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>>
>>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>>
>>> *
>>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>  *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

So, by extrapolation to the average 21st century knowledge base, we're
screwed, Occam's Razor-wise. At least in the United States where our public
education system spews out illiteracy at an ever-increasing rate.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Patrick Reilly <
patrick.rei...@ipsociety.net> wrote:

> Of course, applying Occam's razor with an 18th century knowledge base
> yields "libertarianism".
>
>
> On Saturday, April 6, 2013, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>
>> Lather, apply Occam's razor, repeat.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails.  In fact,
>>> there is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t
>>> have anything about chemtrails.  
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Gotta stop thinking about this.  
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Nick 
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>>> Roberts
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:27 AM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] just the facts
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> *Doug Roberts
>>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>>
>>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>>> 
>>>
>>> *
>>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and
> confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the person(s)
> named above. If you are not the intended recipient,  you are hereby
> notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of
> this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
> of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly,
> please send an email to patrick.rei...@ipsociety.net.
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

That would suggest the willingness to apply rational cognition to the
issue, which, as you suggest, is the whole point.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Lather, apply Occam's razor, repeat.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails.  In fact, there
>> is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t have
>> anything about chemtrails.  
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Gotta stop thinking about this.  
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Nick 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>> Roberts
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:27 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] just the facts
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>>
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 
>>
>> *
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

No, no! Keep thinking about it.  Here, Wikipedia's got us covered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory

These are fascinating insights into our society, and that general human
tendency to glom on to a belief set and then hang on to it come Hell or
High Water, rational cognition be damned.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails.  In fact, there
> is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t have
> anything about chemtrails.  
>
> ** **
>
> Gotta stop thinking about this.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:27 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] just the facts
>
> ** **
>
> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>
> ** **
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

I suspect that if one were to conduct a survey about the belief that the US
Government is trying to poison us all by flying these special airplanes at
30,000 feet to spray nasty chemical poisons (hence all those horrible *
chemtrails* that you can clearly see in the sky), at least 40% of Santa
Fe's fine inhabitants would be True Believers.  No shit.

--Doug

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> True, their focus as I understand it is assigning a "grade" for political
> wonks current statements, with source material supporting their grade of
> their evaluation.
>
> Chemtrails?  WTF?
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>>>
>>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] just the facts

[Douglas Roberts]

-1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails.

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Thanks for All the Fish!

[Douglas Roberts]

I think I'm always channeling Douglas Adams. Thanks for asking.

--Doug

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Doug -
>
>1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence?
>
>   In the case of the chemtrail faithful I can safely characterize their
> measure (singular) of evidence as: "Look! See the chemtrails? 'They' are
> trying to poison us!!!"
>
> No argument there but *why* are they trying to poison us!!!  Wait...
> I'm on the skeptics side...  nevermind...
>
>
>>1. Is the current "exponential" growth in tech divergent or
>>convergent?
>>
>>
>  I believe that the true source of divergence (in what? you might ask, in
> everything, I might answer: politics, technology, religion, ...) is that
> too many people are complete, embarrassingly ignorant assholes.
>
> And just what is your measure of evidence about what the multi-objective
> function of *complete, embarassing, ignorant, *and* asshole*?   And what
> *does* the pareto frontier of that look like in these 4 dimensions?
> Anyone who doesn't understand the question or it's import are *complete,
> embarassingly ignorant assholes* (by one measure)!
>
>  And thanks for asking.
>
> You are most welcome (as always)... anything else you would like me to ask
> ?
>
> For some reason this last line of yours makes me imagine that you are
> channelling Doug(las) Adams (aka Roberts?):
>
>  "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!"
> by
> Douglas Adams (RIP)
>
>
> So long and thanks for all the fish
> So sad that it should come to this
> We tried to warn you all but oh dear?
>
> You may not share our intellect
> Which might explain your disrespect
> For all the natural wonders that
> grow around you
>
> So long, so long and thanks
> for all the fish
>
> The world's about to be destroyed
> There's no point getting all annoyed
> Lie back and let the planet dissolve(around you)
>
> Despite those nets of tuna fleets
> We thought that most of you were sweet
> Especially tiny tots and your
> pregnant women
>
> So long, so long, so long, so long, so long
> So long, so long, so long, so long, so long
>
> So long, so long and thanks
> for all the fish
>
> If I had just one last wish
> I would like a tasty fish
> If we could just change one thing
> We would all learn how to sing
>
> Come one and all
> Man and Mammal
> Side by Side in life's great gene pool
>
> (hhh hhh oooaah- ah ahh)
>
> So long, so long, so long, so long, so long
> So long, so long, so long, so long, so long
>
> So long, so long and, !Thanks!
> for all the fish!
>
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Roger/Glen -
>
> Good stuff... I find both topics very compelling:
>
>
>1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence?
>
> In the case of the chemtrail faithful I can safely characterize their
measure (singular) of evidence as: "Look! See the chemtrails? 'They' are
trying to poison us!!!"


>
>1. Is the current "exponential" growth in tech divergent or convergent?
>
>
I believe that the true source of divergence (in what? you might ask, in
everything, I might answer: politics, technology, religion, ...) is that
too many people are complete, embarrassingly ignorant assholes.   And
thanks for asking.

--Doug

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

+1

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>
>  Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult
> people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about
> it.  Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit.
>
>  -Doug
>
> I can testify to this, as I disagree with Doug often and he only insults
> me when he's being a complete asshole about it !
>
>  - Steve
>
>  On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, "glen"  wrote:
>
>> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM:
>> >  I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense,
>>
>> You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term,
>> which of course they don't.  Even reputable scientists disagree on what
>> constitutes evidence.  I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom
>> you disagree.  But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ
>> depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc.
>>
>> Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence
>> in, say, biology or physics.  And that's without leaping out into the
>> softer sciences.
>>
>> --
>> =><= glen e. p. ropella
>> Looked pretty horny if I do say
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

But they do promise life everlasting.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Again, acting in my capacity as the Village Pragmatist, I would assert that
> science is the only procedure capable of producing lasting consensus.  The
> other methods  various forms of torture, mostly ... do not produce such
> enduring results.  N
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 6:12 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the
> TED
> Controversy is Sending
>
> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM:
> >  I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense,
>
> You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term,
> which of course they don't.  Even reputable scientists disagree on what
> constitutes evidence.  I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom you
> disagree.  But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ depending
> on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc.
>
> Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence
> in,
> say, biology or physics.  And that's without leaping out into the softer
> sciences.
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Looked pretty horny if I do say
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people
who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it.
Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit.

-Doug
On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, "glen"  wrote:

> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM:
> >  I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense,
>
> You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term,
> which of course they don't.  Even reputable scientists disagree on what
> constitutes evidence.  I know you're willing to insult anyone with whom
> you disagree.  But the fact remains that standards of evidence differ
> depending on the context of the discussion, the domain of inquiry, etc.
>
> Evidence in, say, cosmology or evolution is very different from evidence
> in, say, biology or physics.  And that's without leaping out into the
> softer sciences.
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> Looked pretty horny if I do say
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

I'm guessing I would have liked your dad, Steve.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Doug -
>
>  On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a
> church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge
> $20 a head at the door each week.
>
> Clearly you haven't been to FRIAM (in person) lately... you are in arrears
> on your dues!  We'll take it out of the royalties on your eBook.
>
> Tangenting again...  my parents were both of Applachian stock where those
> who "had Christ" used their bibles to access him without benefit of a
> church or preacher.
>
> My mother liked to go to church Christmas and Easter and I think the last
> (and only?) time my father came with her, when the collection plate came
> by, he reached in, then pulled his hand back empty and said "no thank you,
> I think I have enough" and passed it on.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>  --Doug
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>  Yes but …..
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn’t believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either.
>> “You aren’t telling me that a president that was going to win an election
>> in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters?”  I just
>> could not believe that they could be so stupid.  I fell for Colin Powell’s
>> thing at the UN;  my wife didn’t buy it for a moment.  I have to say, that
>> in most contexts, I believe in gullibility.  I think a little bit of
>> gullibility is the best program for getting on in life.  But I have been
>> known to carry it too far.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>> Roberts
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM
>>
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that
>> the TED Controversy is Sending
>>
>>
>>
>> There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick.  To nobody's
>> great surprise, I guess.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Doug,
>>
>>
>>
>> Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise
>> perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my
>> jaw hanging open.   What do you say when somebody your sort of like,
>> touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but
>> ….”
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess, “You’re nuts!”
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
>> Roberts
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM
>>
>>
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that
>> the TED Controversy is Sending
>>
>>
>>
>> Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how
>> about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant
>> segment of the US population who fervently believe that "they" are
>> poisoning us, on purpose.  But only on those days that the jets leave con
>> ... er ... chemtrails.  No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman  wrote:
>>
>> But you're missing the point.:  *something* is working for them if they
>> believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is.  The
>> question is how does it work?  No, that's not good enough, because it too
>> easily leads back to premature assumptions.  The question is:  how can
>> placebo be improved.  Not set aside but improved.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM:
>>
>> > I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the
>> > patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You
>> > can fool all of ….").
>>
>> A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her
>> chronic back and neck pain.  There's a zealot in our local CfI
>> (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly
>> shouts about acupuncture bein

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

Well, I suppose.  I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense, rather
than the political one, or the one which so many idiots prefer to use which
could loosely defined as "I choose to believe, so there is plenty of
evidence to support my belief."

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:37 PM, glen  wrote:

> Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:21 PM:
> > I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to
> adopt
> > a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The
> > Truth.
>
> Yeah, but the real problem is equivocation around the word "evidence".
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> It's already in their eyes.
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt
a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The
Truth.

On a related note, now would appear to be an excellent time to start a
church, impose mandatory weekly attendance upon the faithful, and charge
$20 a head at the door each week.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Yes but …..
>
> ** **
>
> I didn’t believe Watergate the first few times I heard about it, either.
> “You aren’t telling me that a president that was going to win an election
> in a walk actually sent Burglars into the Democratic Headquarters?”  I just
> could not believe that they could be so stupid.  I fell for Colin Powell’s
> thing at the UN;  my wife didn’t buy it for a moment.  I have to say, that
> in most contexts, I believe in gullibility.  I think a little bit of
> gullibility is the best program for getting on in life.  But I have been
> known to carry it too far.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that
> the TED Controversy is Sending
>
> ** **
>
> There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick.  To nobody's
> great surprise, I guess.
>
> ** **
>
> --Doug
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Doug, 
>
>  
>
> Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise
> perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my
> jaw hanging open.   What do you say when somebody your sort of like,
> touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but
> ….”  
>
>  
>
> I guess, “You’re nuts!”
>
>  
>
> N
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM
>
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that
> the TED Controversy is Sending
>
>  
>
> Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how
> about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant
> segment of the US population who fervently believe that "they" are
> poisoning us, on purpose.  But only on those days that the jets leave con
> ... er ... chemtrails.  No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails.
> 
>
>  
>
> --Doug
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman  wrote:*
> ***
>
> But you're missing the point.:  *something* is working for them if they
> believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is.  The
> question is how does it work?  No, that's not good enough, because it too
> easily leads back to premature assumptions.  The question is:  how can
> placebo be improved.  Not set aside but improved.
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM:
>
> > I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the
> > patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You
> > can fool all of ….").
>
> A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her
> chronic back and neck pain.  There's a zealot in our local CfI
> (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly
> shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously...
> is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time
> I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense
> with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_
> points and nerve clusters.  But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse
> couldn't achieve more effectively.
>
> But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so
> far.  My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury.
>  He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his
> chiropractor.  I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere
> with her placebo effect.
>
> Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc
> analysis of my lack of action.  Would I want someone to burst my placebo
> effect bubble?  If so, when? 

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

There are a surprising number of them on facebook, Nick.  To nobody's great
surprise, I guess.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug, 
>
> ** **
>
> Somebody laid the chemtrails thing on me the other day … an otherwise
> perfectly sensible neighbor … and I was left standing in the street with my
> jaw hanging open.   What do you say when somebody your sort of like,
> touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but
> ….”  
>
> ** **
>
> I guess, “You’re nuts!”
>
> ** **
>
> N
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that
> the TED Controversy is Sending
>
> ** **
>
> Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how
> about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant
> segment of the US population who fervently believe that "they" are
> poisoning us, on purpose.  But only on those days that the jets leave con
> ... er ... chemtrails.  No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails.
> 
>
> ** **
>
> --Doug
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman  wrote:*
> ***
>
> But you're missing the point.:  *something* is working for them if they
> believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is.  The
> question is how does it work?  No, that's not good enough, because it too
> easily leads back to premature assumptions.  The question is:  how can
> placebo be improved.  Not set aside but improved.
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM:
>
> > I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the
> > patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You
> > can fool all of ….").
>
> A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her
> chronic back and neck pain.  There's a zealot in our local CfI
> (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly
> shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously...
> is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time
> I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense
> with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_
> points and nerve clusters.  But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse
> couldn't achieve more effectively.
>
> But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so
> far.  My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury.
>  He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his
> chiropractor.  I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere
> with her placebo effect.
>
> Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc
> analysis of my lack of action.  Would I want someone to burst my placebo
> effect bubble?  If so, when?  Immediately?  Or perhaps after some window
> of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard
> biophysical/physiological limits?
>
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
>
> I can't get no peace until I get into motion
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> --
> Ron Newman, Founder
> MyIdeatree.com <http://www.Ideatree.us>
> The World Happiness Meter <http://worldhappinessmeter.com>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[Douglas Roberts]

Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how
about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant
segment of the US population who fervently believe that "they" are
poisoning us, on purpose.  But only on those days that the jets leave con
... er ... chemtrails.  No proof necessary, just *look* at those chemtrails.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ron Newman  wrote:

> But you're missing the point.:  *something* is working for them if they
> believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is.  The
> question is how does it work?  No, that's not good enough, because it too
> easily leads back to premature assumptions.  The question is:  how can
> placebo be improved.  Not set aside but improved.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, glen  wrote:
>
>> Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM:
>> > I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the
>> > patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You
>> > can fool all of ….").
>>
>> A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her
>> chronic back and neck pain.  There's a zealot in our local CfI
>> (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) group who continuously and loudly
>> shouts about acupuncture being as quackish as homeopathy. (Seriously...
>> is there anything as quackish as homeopathy?) The tiny amount of time
>> I've spent looking into acupuncture indicates that it's mostly nonsense
>> with some slight possibility of truth in regard to certain _pressure_
>> points and nerve clusters.  But nothing that an evidence-based masseuse
>> couldn't achieve more effectively.
>>
>> But I kept my mouth shut and let her talk about how well it's worked so
>> far.  My dad also used acupuncture for a racquetball associated injury.
>>  He claimed it worked very well... [ahem] ... even better than his
>> chiropractor.  I didn't want to introduce any doubt that might interfere
>> with her placebo effect.
>>
>> Interestingly, I was trying to apply the Golden Rule in a post-hoc
>> analysis of my lack of action.  Would I want someone to burst my placebo
>> effect bubble?  If so, when?  Immediately?  Or perhaps after some window
>> of time as the placebo effect decays and it bumps up against the hard
>> biophysical/physiological limits?
>>
>> --
>> =><= glen e. p. ropella
>> I can't get no peace until I get into motion
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ron Newman, Founder
> MyIdeatree.com 
> The World Happiness Meter 
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Browser market share

[Douglas Roberts]

Owen,

Yes, Netflix is implemented with HTML5 on the Samsung (ARM) Chromebook.
Could you see Google allowing a M$ solution on one of their products?

Originally, Google & Netflix were going to implement the app for the cb
with NACL, but apparently changed their minds.

-Doug
 On Apr 3, 2013 10:00 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:

>  Doug -
>
> Not to disturb you and Wallander, but here's a browserDrivel question:
> are you saying Netflix is streaming to your Chromebook without
> Silverlight?I'd like to "never see Silverlight again"...
>
> - Steve
>
> QUIT BOTHERING ME WITH THIS PISSANT BROWSER DRIVEL!
>
>  I'm watching Wallander on my Google Chromebook with Netflix running ad
> an html5 implementation in my Chrome browser.
>
>  Or at least I would be if you all would quit going on and on and on
> about javascript, and Mozilla, and wtf else...
>
>  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
>>  I'm a bit surprised that Chrome is behind Fire Fox.
>>
>>
>> http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=1&qpcustomb=0
>>
>>  This makes me more interested in asm.js than ever.  And MozPhone.  And
>> Emscripten.  And Rust.
>>
>>   I wish the Dev Tools weren't so opaque.
>>
>> -- Owen
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>  *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Browser market share

[Douglas Roberts]

I agree, Bruce, Wallander is really interesting. In fact, the blond,
divorced special investigator is the same actress who played against
Blovmqvist in the "Girl With The Dragon Tatooo" series. Good stuff!

Plus, I love listening to Swedish.
On Apr 3, 2013 9:35 PM, "Bruce Sherwood"  wrote:

> Doug, I can't tell whether you're being serious or not. Though I'm not in
> a position to act immediately on all the new developments that Owen
> enthusiastically ferrets out, I value the fact that he's giving us a
> picture of how very much rich ferment there is right now in the
> JavaScript/browser world. Something interesting really is happening.
> Thanks, Owen.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> QUIT BOTHERING ME WITH THIS PISSANT BROWSER DRIVEL!
>>
>> I'm watching Wallander on my Google Chromebook with Netflix running ad an
>> html5 implementation in my Chrome browser.
>>
>> Or at least I would be if you all would quit going on and on and on about
>> javascript, and Mozilla, and wtf else...
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a bit surprised that Chrome is behind Fire Fox.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=1&qpcustomb=0
>>>
>>> This makes me more interested in asm.js than ever.  And MozPhone.  And
>>> Emscripten.  And Rust.
>>>
>>> I wish the Dev Tools weren't so opaque.
>>>
>>>   -- Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Browser market share

[Douglas Roberts]

QUIT BOTHERING ME WITH THIS PISSANT BROWSER DRIVEL!

I'm watching Wallander on my Google Chromebook with Netflix running ad an
html5 implementation in my Chrome browser.

Or at least I would be if you all would quit going on and on and on about
javascript, and Mozilla, and wtf else...

Thank you.




On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> I'm a bit surprised that Chrome is behind Fire Fox.
>
> http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=1&qpcustomb=0
>
> This makes me more interested in asm.js than ever.  And MozPhone.  And
> Emscripten.  And Rust.
>
> I wish the Dev Tools weren't so opaque.
>
>   -- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] John Resig - Asm.js: The JavaScript Compile Target

[Douglas Roberts]

So that after learning it, you could honestly claim that your skills were
Rusty.

--BadaBing

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:

>  Interesting a new language I hadn't hear about.  But why would you name
> anything Rust?
>
>
> --joshua
>
> --
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Cell phone turns 40

[Douglas Roberts]

You want to feel old?  Try interacting with the Android development
community.  The average age of the CyanogenMod community, for example,
appears to be about 14 years.  I actually heard one of the CM devs refer to
one of their "senior" developers, who turns out to be 30 years old.

--Doug

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Gary -
>
> Thanks a lot, dude. The second post that makes me feel incredibly old at
> 54 :-)
>
> You and me both (56)...
>
> I certainly remember life without cell phones, trying to find a public
> phone and the right change.
>
> In my Private Investigator days (late 70s) I carried a fully analog pager
> and had a CB Radio under the dash and a roll of dimes in the ashtray of my
> AMC Gremlin and a cassette tape-based answering machine on my landline.  No
> Rockford or Magnum (though with some of their *funkier* characteristics I
> suppose).   I knew where all the pay phones were and which ones worked and
> which ones were likely to have boogers on the handset.   My wife *hated*
> the CB (with all the noisy "Breaker Breaker" ratchetjaw chatter) but was
> willing to leave it on a mostly unused channel for me to check in with her
> on.   She didn't take messages but usually was willing to tell me if *any*
> messages had come in  and in a pinch would play them back for me.
>
> My first Cell was a Motorola Brick (beam me up Scotty!) that I had for
> work for about a year in the mid 90's  I didn't go back to a cell until the
> early 2000's and was at least a year late on the smart-phone bandwagon.
>
>  Incredible how much things can change in such a short time (including
> the differing perceptions of what constitutes "a short time").
>
> I remember when (crotchety old man voice) the term "Internet Time" was
> coined.   It wasn't that long ago except in "Internet Time" where it is of
> course, eons!
>
>  Actually, it makes me feel rather hopeful about the future, but at least
> a little intimidated...
>
> I feel more deprecated (and hopeful) than intimidated!
>
>   I voted for Obama more because he was young than because he was
> not-white.  I would  have voted for Hillary if she wasn't *older than me*
> (and of course wasn't *actually* HIllary)...
>
> I want my children's generation *30 somethings* to take the reins firmly
> from my *parents* and my own generation (50s through 80s) and be ready to
> include the *20 somethings* as they demonstrate their ability (plenty who
> are, see Resig and some of our own constituency right here!).   I guess you
> 40-somethings (Guerin, et al) should just accept being the wise elders you
> already have become and get over having the chance to run the world into
> the ground.
>
> - Steve
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Google Nose BETA

[Douglas Roberts]

Something doesn't smell right about this, Steve. Oh, wait.  What's the date?


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  Doug -
>
>  *New google critter?  I bet it only lasts a day.*
> * *
> **
> *https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/*
>
> If you (and anyone else with one) open up your Nexus7 (warning, this *will
> void the warranty) you will see the beta scentChip they installed between
> the Bluetooth and WiFi radios.   The ester, aline, amine generators
> naturally disrupts the ether.
>
> If you check your outbound traffic, you will see streams of .wif files
> going out  Google has been illicitly collecting data from Nexus7 users
> like they did with their StreetView cars sniffing out WiFi.   The FBI and
> ATF are hot to get their hands on this data as it *is* sensitive enough to
> detect the proximity of illegal drugs, gunpowder and other explosives, and
> alcohol.  Add this to GPS location and the busts will be coming down left
> and right.
>
> Of course in your case, they will only find that you are roasting and
> grinding your own coffee, drinking only the finest of whiskeys, and live
> with dozens of birds, I don't think it will detect your "sweet disposition"
> however.
>
> The final frontier for replacing paper junk mail is user-targeted scratch
> and sniff adverts!
>
> Carry on!
>  - Steve
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 3:12 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
>>  New google critter?  I bet it only lasts a day.
>>
>> https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
>>
>> -- Owen
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>  *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Google Nose BETA

[Douglas Roberts]

Yeah, like as long as April 1 lasts.


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 3:12 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> New google critter?  I bet it only lasts a day.
>
> https://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/nose/
>
>   -- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] mooc stuff

[Douglas Roberts]

One of mine, however.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Curt McNamara  wrote:

> Reminds me of A Clockwork Orange (*not* my favorite movie).
>
> Curt
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jack Stafurik wrote:
>
>> Here is a link to a Washington Post article on mooc:
>>
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/in-education-innovatio
>>
>> n-moocs-are-only-the-beginning/2013/03/29/88d77ae6-97ef-11e2-814b-063623d80a
>> 60_story.html?wpisrc=nl_tech
>>
>> At friam this morning we talked about whether this approach could be used
>> to
>> develop a "best" teaching approach. The last three paragraphs of this
>> article gave an interesting perspective on how this can be done. It's
>> copied
>> below:
>>
>> "But is there a method of detecting whether a student has learned
>> anything?
>> Quizzes and tests are imperfect measures. Enter, sensor-based technology,
>> which could detect the interest, learning, and emotion of the student.
>>
>> For example, NeuroSky markets a headset called MindWave that the company
>> says measures brainwave signals and transmits them via Bluetooth to a
>> mobile
>> device. The $99 device, according to the company, detects the attention
>> level of students as they learn mathematics, science, or any other
>> pattern-recognition disciplines. Affectiva is developing a biosensor
>> bracelet called Q Sensor to measure electrodermal activity, which changes
>> based on one's emotional state. Ideally, the sensor would detect when a
>> student is anxious, bored or excited.
>>
>> Now, imagine the digital tutor of the future. If a child likes reading
>> books, it teaches mathematics and science in a traditional way. If that
>> doesn't work, the tutor tries videos. If that's too boring, it switches to
>> games or puzzles. The digital tutor takes the student into holographic
>> simulations to teach history, culture, and geography. It teaches art and
>> music through collaboration. The tutor, via sensor data, knows what the
>> child has learned and the time of day when he or she learns the most. It
>> asks experts from all around the world the questions it can't answer. It
>> tells the parents how the child is doing whenever they want to know. It
>> becomes the child's trusted guide - a teacher tailor-made to fit them."
>>
>> This could probably be adapted to determine if a student is cheating on a
>> test!
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice

[Douglas Roberts]

It would almost be worth it to see the look on your face, Steve.


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  On 3/26/13 9:12 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>
>  Doug,  
>
> ** **
>
> One day, I will sit down with you over a beer and ruin your life by
> proving to you (using philosophical methods of course) that you ARE
> interested in it.  At which point you will experience a Saul-to-Paul
> conversion  and appear on the Plaza in white robes and sandals dispensing
> spiritual wisdom to the masses.
>
> Careful... if the wind comes up and Doug's robes blow up (think Marilyn
> Monroe) it will be exposed that he wears the very same "funny underwear"
> that he chides the Mormons on.  It is a funny world isn't it?
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice

[Douglas Roberts]

As you say, Nick. And that will either right before, or right afterward I
convert to some religion or another.

But in the mean time, we can still have that beer.

--Doug


On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:12 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug,  
>
> ** **
>
> One day, I will sit down with you over a beer and ruin your life by
> proving to you (using philosophical methods of course) that you ARE
> interested in it.  At which point you will experience a Saul-to-Paul
> conversion  and appear on the Plaza in white robes and sandals dispensing
> spiritual wisdom to the masses.  
>
> ** **
>
> Beware. 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:04 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice
>
> ** **
>
> This list constantly reminds me that we are all, thankfully, different.
>  Offhand, I can not think of a topic that I would be more violently
> disinterested in than the "philosophy of causation".  Unless maybe it would
> be "the philosophy of complexity", or perhaps "the philosophy of
> agent-based model design".
>
> ** **
>
> But I acknowledge that a not small fraction of you eat this stuff up, so
> please: have at it!
>
> ** **
>
> --Doug
>
> ** **
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
>  
>
> Here is the complete citation:
>
>  
>
> Glymour, C., and Wimberly, F. 
>
>   Actual Causes and Thought Experiments,
>
>   in Joseph Keim Campbell, Michael O'Rourke, Harry S. Silverstein
> (eds.), 
>
>   Causation and Explanation:  Topics in Contemporary Philosopy, MIT
> Press, Cambridge, July 2007.
>
>  
>
> I’ll buy a cup of coffee for anyone who reads the whole paper.  The book
> contains a number of papers by luminaries in the area of philosophy of
> causation including Patrick Suppes, Nancy Cartwright, Christopher
> Hitchcock, etc.  I was surprised to find that it’s available on Google
> books:  *http://tinyurl.com/d9l44jh *
>
> * *
>
> Frank
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>  
>
> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
>
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nicholas
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 11:57 PM
> *To:* russ.abb...@gmail.com; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group'
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice
>
>  
>
> Russ, 
>
>  
>
> I don’t know wtf I am.  I have always thought of  myself as a scientist,
> but I am sure that many on this list have their doubts.  I am certainly not
> a “hard” scientist.  
>
>  
>
> I was hoping by my comment to lure you into a more lengthy explication of
> the idea that real scientists don’t think in terms of causes.  But now you
> have smoked me out instead, so here goes. 
>
>  
>
> Many of the *philosophers* I know, from time to time like to talk about
> causality as if it were a sophomoric illusion, citing Hume, or some sort of
> weird quantum theory.  But that does not keep them from using causal
> reasoning freely in their everyday lives.  I have never heard a philosopher
> who was reluctant to say things like “my car stalled because it ran out of
> gas”.  I think what they mean when they deny causality is the denial of
> something that, as a behaviorist, I never thought to entertain: some deep
> gear-and-cog mechanism lurking behind experience.   If one once concedes
> that all one means by causality is some forms of relation between previous
> and successive events such that a previous event makes a successive event
> more likely, then determining causality is just an exercise in
> experimentation.  The sort of thing that all scientists do all the time.
>  Thus, while “causality” may be unfounded in some fastidious philosophical
> sense, it is by no means empty.  I’ll  quote below from a footnote from a
> paper we just wrote which tries to preempt criticism our use of “causal”
> arguments in the paper.  The footnote makes reference to work by a
> colleague and friend of mine, here in Santa Fe, Frank Wimberly.  I will
> copy him here to try and get him to speak up.  He ten

Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice

[Douglas Roberts]

This list constantly reminds me that we are all, thankfully, different.
 Offhand, I can not think of a topic that I would be more violently
disinterested in than the "philosophy of causation".  Unless maybe it would
be "the philosophy of complexity", or perhaps "the philosophy of
agent-based model design".

But I acknowledge that a not small fraction of you eat this stuff up, so
please: have at it!

--Doug


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> Nick,
>
> ** **
>
> Here is the complete citation:
>
> ** **
>
> Glymour, C., and Wimberly, F. 
>
>   Actual Causes and Thought Experiments,
>
>   in Joseph Keim Campbell, Michael O'Rourke, Harry S. Silverstein
> (eds.), 
>
>   Causation and Explanation:  Topics in Contemporary Philosopy, MIT
> Press, Cambridge, July 2007.
>
> ** **
>
> I’ll buy a cup of coffee for anyone who reads the whole paper.  The book
> contains a number of papers by luminaries in the area of philosophy of
> causation including Patrick Suppes, Nancy Cartwright, Christopher
> Hitchcock, etc.  I was surprised to find that it’s available on Google
> books:  *http://tinyurl.com/d9l44jh *
>
> * *
>
> Frank**
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> ** **
>
> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
>
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nicholas
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 11:57 PM
> *To:* russ.abb...@gmail.com; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group'
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice
>
> ** **
>
> Russ, 
>
> ** **
>
> I don’t know wtf I am.  I have always thought of  myself as a scientist,
> but I am sure that many on this list have their doubts.  I am certainly not
> a “hard” scientist.  
>
> ** **
>
> I was hoping by my comment to lure you into a more lengthy explication of
> the idea that real scientists don’t think in terms of causes.  But now you
> have smoked me out instead, so here goes. 
>
> ** **
>
> Many of the *philosophers* I know, from time to time like to talk about
> causality as if it were a sophomoric illusion, citing Hume, or some sort of
> weird quantum theory.  But that does not keep them from using causal
> reasoning freely in their everyday lives.  I have never heard a philosopher
> who was reluctant to say things like “my car stalled because it ran out of
> gas”.  I think what they mean when they deny causality is the denial of
> something that, as a behaviorist, I never thought to entertain: some deep
> gear-and-cog mechanism lurking behind experience.   If one once concedes
> that all one means by causality is some forms of relation between previous
> and successive events such that a previous event makes a successive event
> more likely, then determining causality is just an exercise in
> experimentation.  The sort of thing that all scientists do all the time.
>  Thus, while “causality” may be unfounded in some fastidious philosophical
> sense, it is by no means empty.  I’ll  quote below from a footnote from a
> paper we just wrote which tries to preempt criticism our use of “causal”
> arguments in the paper.  The footnote makes reference to work by a
> colleague and friend of mine, here in Santa Fe, Frank Wimberly.  I will
> copy him here to try and get him to speak up.  He tends to lurk, until I
> say something really foolish, which no doubt I have.  The whole paper is at
> http://www.behavior.org/resource.php?id=675 . So, here is the footnote:***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Some might argue that in falling back on a more vernacular understanding
> of causality we have paid too great a price in rigor. However, as our
> Seminar colleague Frank Wimberly pointed out, the vernacular understanding
> of casualty is potentially rigorous. Research investigating what aspects of
> the world lay people are sensitive to when assigning causality suggests
> people are sensitive to particular types of probabilistic relationships
> (Cheng, Novick, Liljeholm, & Ford, 2007) and that certain types of
> experiments are better than others at revealing such relationships (Glymour
> & Wimberly, 2007).
>
> ** **
>
> Frank?  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Russ Abbott
> *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 11:05 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice
>
> ** **
>
> Nick,
>
> ** **
>
> You're the scientist; I'm only a computer scientist. So you are more
> qualified to talk about science and cause. 
>
> ** **
>
> Do you think science organizes its theories in terms of causes? I see
> equations, entities, structures, geometries, and mechanisms, but I don't
> see causes. As I'm sure you know, the notion of "cause" is very slippe

Re: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team

[Douglas Roberts]

Nick, I somehow feel that you and I have both been vaguely, yet abstrusely
(but delicately) chastised.

--Doug


On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:04 AM,  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Even a former English major ought to be able to faithfully transcribe a
> short phrase from the
> second line of the first sentence of a two-paragraph, three-sentence
> e-mail that is actually
> included a few inches below the locus of his transcription...
>
> On the other hand, if it weren't for the long history of paleography,
> scribal errors, and
> variorum editions, the structure that for hundreds of years supported the
> "English major" (and
> other "literature majors") might never have existed in the form the former
> English major may
> have encountered stumbling about on its last legs, before it was finally
> utterly replaced by
> the Higher Nonsense.
>
> Lee Rudolph
>
> P.S. No one should forget the old "high-byte"--at least, no one who ever
> dealt with WordStar.
>
> > You are absolutely correct.  "higher-order bit" it is.  Even better.  Can
> > you imagine what a former English major's imagination did with that?
> >
> >
> >
> > n
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Thorp
> > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:01 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team
> >
> >
> >
> > Also I doubt Owen ever said "top bit",  I imagine it was probably
> > "high-order bit".
> >
> >
> >
> > I like the question though, can a bug be on purpose.  Seems like it
> would be
> > in the eye of the beholder, one person's bug might be another's feature.
> >
> >
> >
> > --joshua
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Douglas Roberts 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick's counselling session will be scheduled shortly...
> >
> >
> >
> > --Doug (Who can tell when his chain is being yanked.)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Now you all know, that, ever since Owen first used the word "top bit" in
> my
> > presence, nearly a decade ago, I have followed, with rapt attention, the
> use
> > of language on this list.  So,  you guys.  I need to understand this
> better.
> > Can a "bug" be "on purpose"?  It sounds to me like Google has sabotaged
> its
> > own product, right.  Therefore, if I understand the language, any Nexus
> > phone thatactually  worked, would be "buggy"., by definition.  I am
> sorry to
> > bother you about this, but these are the kinds of things that keep me
> awake
> > at night.  N
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas
> Roberts
> > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:44 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Google Device Support Team.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's  been a while since we spoke, but I recently discovered that
> someone in
> > your organization has been (I hope inadvertently) disseminating
> inaccurate
> > information about this Nexus 4
> > <
> https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/mobile/l4uYRMVHnHY/rHpsXdwNGPc
> > J>  bug, and I thought you'd want to know about it right away.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's the deal: you see, we all know that the Nexus 4 was not designed
> on
> > purpose to prevent wifi and bluetooth from being used at the same time.
>  We
> > all know that it is a bug.  Well, all of us except for Steve, apparently.
> > Here, read for yourselves:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/translated.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Now, we all have the utmost confidence that someone in your organization
> > will immediately take Steve aside for a private little counselling
> session
> > about the inappropriateness of, shall we say, bending the truth regarding
> > this particular flaw in the Nexus 4 product.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> >
> > --Doug
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >

Re: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team

[Douglas Roberts]

Well in that case, Nick, it's pretty simple.  Google fucked up either the
radio design of the Nexus 4, or LG fucked up its manufacture, because you
are supposed to be able to use wifi and bluetooth at the same time.

And you can't. On the Google Nexus 4. You can with other Android phones.
But not with the Google Nexus 4.  Google's Android.  Google's phone.
 Broken.

--Doug


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug, 
>
> ** **
>
> No.  No!  Honest.  No chains jerked.  Promise.  Just want to know how the
> language works.  Remember, I am the guy who thinks that language and
> metaphor lie at the core of science (even tho I am also the guy who thinks
> that Rorty is a schmuck).  I follow the blogs of noaa weather forecasters
> with the same intense interest.  I may be nuts, but I don’t think I am
> devious.   
>
> ** **
>
> My favorite term of art in weather forecasting is “least-regret
> forecast”,  which explains why, if a forecaster makes a mistake early, that
> mistake tends to get compounded later because the “least-regret forecast”
> is the one that involves the fewest changes of mind.  If you don’t change
> your original bad forecast, at least you have only been wrong once. 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:58 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Nick's counselling session will be scheduled shortly...
>
> ** **
>
> --Doug (Who can tell when his chain is being yanked.)
>
> ** **
>
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Now you all know, that, ever since Owen first used the word “top bit” in
> my presence, nearly a decade ago, I have followed, with rapt attention, the
> use of language on this list.  So,  you guys.  I need to understand this
> better.  Can a “bug” be “on purpose”?  It sounds to me like Google has
> sabotaged its own product, right.  Therefore, if I understand the language,
> any Nexus phone thatactually  worked, would be “buggy”., by definition.  I
> am sorry to bother you about this, but these are the kinds of things that
> keep me awake at night.  N
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:44 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team
>
>  
>
> *Hi, Google Device Support Team.*
>
>  
>
> *It's  been a while since we spoke, but I recently discovered that
> someone in your organization has been (I hope inadvertently) disseminating
> inaccurate information about this Nexus 
> 4<https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/mobile/l4uYRMVHnHY/rHpsXdwNGPcJ>
>  bug,
> and I thought you'd want to know about it right away.  *
>
>  
>
> *Here's the deal: you see, we all know that the Nexus 4 was not designed on
> purpose to prevent wifi and bluetooth from being used at the same time.
>  We all know that it is a bug.  Well, all of us except for Steve,
> apparently. Here, read for yourselves:  *
>
>  
>
> *http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/translated.html*
>
>  
>
> *Now, we all have the utmost confidence that someone in your organization
> will immediately take Steve aside for a private little counselling session
> about the inappropriateness of, shall we say, *bending the truth* regarding
> this particular flaw in the Nexus 4 product.*
>
>  
>
> *Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter.*
>
>  
>
> *Best,*
>
>  
>
> *--Doug*
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
>

Re: [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team

[Douglas Roberts]

Nick's counselling session will be scheduled shortly...

--Doug (Who can tell when his chain is being yanked.)


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Now you all know, that, ever since Owen first used the word “top bit” in
> my presence, nearly a decade ago, I have followed, with rapt attention, the
> use of language on this list.  So,  you guys.  I need to understand this
> better.  Can a “bug” be “on purpose”?  It sounds to me like Google has
> sabotaged its own product, right.  Therefore, if I understand the language,
> any Nexus phone thatactually  worked, would be “buggy”., by definition.  I
> am sorry to bother you about this, but these are the kinds of things that
> keep me awake at night.  N
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
> Roberts
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:44 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team
>
> ** **
>
> *Hi, Google Device Support Team.*
>
> ** **
>
> *It's  been a while since we spoke, but I recently discovered that
> someone in your organization has been (I hope inadvertently) disseminating
> inaccurate information about this Nexus 
> 4<https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/mobile/l4uYRMVHnHY/rHpsXdwNGPcJ>
>  bug,
> and I thought you'd want to know about it right away.  *
>
> ** **
>
> *Here's the deal: you see, we all know that the Nexus 4 was not designed on
> purpose to prevent wifi and bluetooth from being used at the same time.
>  We all know that it is a bug.  Well, all of us except for Steve,
> apparently. Here, read for yourselves:  *
>
> ** **
>
> *http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/translated.html*
>
> ** **
>
> *Now, we all have the utmost confidence that someone in your organization
> will immediately take Steve aside for a private little counselling session
> about the inappropriateness of, shall we say, *bending the truth* regarding
> this particular flaw in the Nexus 4 product.*
>
> ** **
>
> *Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter.*
>
> ** **
>
> *Best,*
>
> ** **
>
> *--Doug*
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 
>
> *
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] BTW, I found a picture of Steve. No, not that one...

[Douglas Roberts]

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/steves-upcoming-counseling-session.html

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] Just sent this to the Google Device Support Team

[Douglas Roberts]

*Hi, Google Device Support Team.*
*
*
*It's  been a while since we spoke, but I recently discovered that someone
in your organization has been (I hope inadvertently) disseminating
inaccurate information about this Nexus
4
bug,
and I thought you'd want to know about it right away.  *
*
*
*Here's the deal: you see, we all know that the Nexus 4 was not designed on
purpose to prevent wifi and bluetooth from being used at the same time.  We
all know that it is a bug.  Well, all of us except for Steve, apparently.
Here, read for yourselves:  *
*
*
*http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/translated.html*
*
*
*Now, we all have the utmost confidence that someone in your organization
will immediately take Steve aside for a private little counselling session
about the inappropriateness of, shall we say, *bending the truth* regarding
this particular flaw in the Nexus 4 product.*
*
*
*Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter.*
*
*
*Best,*
*
*
*--Doug*

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

[FRIAM] Another Saturday, another Google fib sees the light of day

[Douglas Roberts]

Thought for the day: If you decide to start a company, it's probably not a
good idea to adopt the motto "Don't be evil" if you plan on using marketing
campaigns that rely on spouting humongous fibs about your product's
deficiencies.

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/03/translated.html

--Doug

-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Google Voice

[Douglas Roberts]

That's what I'd expect as well.  It is such a useful service that even
cheapskates like me would pay for it.

But don't tell those bastards at Google I said so.

--Doug


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> The free US long distance service associated with Google Voice is a "bonus
> feature" that's been extended each year, but could go to a paid model any
> year now.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> One could argue that Google Voice has become a core service, like email,
>> from which they reap information harvested from its users.  I'd surprised
>> if it were not a growing service, given the continued growth of the mobile
>> industry.
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> Bingo: this was my concern, that GV would go the way of Reader.
>>>
>>> But if it's easy to transfer to another VoIP service, then having Google
>>> abandon GV would be less a blow, but certainly a hassle.
>>>
>>>-- Owen
>>>
>>>  On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Robert Holmes <
>>> rob...@robertholmes.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Google Voice is living on borrowed time. If the Guardian's analysis
>>>> is correct 
>>>> (link<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/22/google-keep-services-closed?INTCMP=SRCH>),
>>>> we could have expected Google to kill it off about two weeks ago on
>>>> 3/9/2013.
>>>>
>>>> But until they do, I'll carry on using it for my 2¢ per minute calls to
>>>> the UK.
>>>>
>>>> —R
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Google Voice

[Douglas Roberts]

One could argue that Google Voice has become a core service, like email,
from which they reap information harvested from its users.  I'd surprised
if it were not a growing service, given the continued growth of the mobile
industry.

--Doug


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Bingo: this was my concern, that GV would go the way of Reader.
>
> But if it's easy to transfer to another VoIP service, then having Google
> abandon GV would be less a blow, but certainly a hassle.
>
>-- Owen
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Robert Holmes 
> wrote:
>
>> Google Voice is living on borrowed time. If the Guardian's analysis is
>> correct 
>> (link),
>> we could have expected Google to kill it off about two weeks ago on
>> 3/9/2013.
>>
>> But until they do, I'll carry on using it for my 2¢ per minute calls to
>> the UK.
>>
>> —R
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Google Voice

[Douglas Roberts]

Hey Owen,

- GV is very easy to use, there is a talk plugin for the Chrome browser
(implied: you have to use the Chrome browser) which provides a nice little
phone dialer app.  What I like about the app is that it is integrated with
your Google contacts, so looking up somebody's number is slick.  Also, the
calls are crystal clear. Sometimes, rarely, a call will drop, but not often
enough to be a major issue.

- For the cell phone there is the GrooveIP Google voice Android app.  I
don't know if there is an IOS equivalent.

- Don't know about transferring your landline number. Maybe you can do that.

- I don't trust Google to not fuck this up. They are a
huge dysfunctional rich-kid bully. Spoiled, too. Arrogant, as well.  And
tone deaf to the concept of "customer" (referring now to their paying
customers, as compared to people how use their free stuff, although they
seem pretty tone deaf to folks using their free stuff as well.)

--Doug




On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Doug: thanks, very clear.
>
> Couple of questions:
> - Is it pretty easy to setup and use?
> - If you give up your landline, can you transfer it to GV so you don't
> loose it?
> - How comfortable are you that Google will continue the service?
>
>-- Owen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Google Voice

[Douglas Roberts]

I use Google voice as my main number.  When I'm at my desktop in the
office, I use the Google Chrome talk plugin and phone dialer app as my
phone, both for incoming & outgoing.  I have Google voice set up to ring
other phones, like my cell, so I give out my Google voice number as my
mobile. This is handy for when I happen to be somewhere where I don't have
enough bandwidth to use the GrooveIP voip Android app to receive calls; the
regular cell voice line rings me.

Google voice is not perfect, but it's pretty damn good.

Now that I've said something good about Google, let me reiterate that the
part of Google that is responsible for the Nexus 4, and for Android for the
Nexus are a lying bunch of bastards. There are thousands of complaints
about broken wifi and bluetooth on the Nexus 4, but if you were to call the
Google toll-free Device Support number right now, they'd still tell you
that "There are no known issues with the Nexus 4."

Being evil.

--Doug

--Doug


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> After the great tales of Doug and Android/Nexus, and seeing sigs w/ GV
> numbers .. I thought I'd ask for those of us (not me yet) who use GV could
> give us a glimpse into that future.
>
> Just as Doug has taken the phone to its logical conclusion: "Its the
> internet stupid" sort of thing .. maybe we all ought to think about GV and
> internet-only (data-only) services.
>
> In other words .. how close _are_ we to data-only services for phone, TV,
> etc?
>
> I finally switched from DSL to Cable, urged on by the idea of data-only
> TV, landline and so on (thanks Gil). Speed test (http://www.speedtest.net/)
> showed seriously shocking differences between DSD & Cable:
> *ping ms  down Mbps  up **Mbps*
> *DSL:  69  1.470.60*
> *Cable:43 35.325.73*
>
> So what _are_ our experiences with GV?  Can we cut that cord?
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Semiannual Time Change

[Douglas Roberts]

+1


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

> On 3/19/13 1:53 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> That's got to be the stupidest thing I've heard all day.
>>
>> :)
>>
> Shoosh, you Cat bowling, Peacock loving, Saxaphone playing, HPC-LINUX
> loving, Admiral-deposing, Blog posting, Whiskey snorting, Google bashing,
> Novel writing, Motorcycle touring, Iconoclastic wanker!
>
> ;^}
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com<http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Semiannual Time Change

[Douglas Roberts]

That's got to be the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

:)


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:55 PM, glen e. p. ropella
wrote:

>
> It's much more interesting than the communities where every stray
> thought is shut down and ridiculed the instant it shows up.
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com
> http://meat.org
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Semiannual Time Change

[Douglas Roberts]

Lofty, only occasionally?  That must be some other parallel universe FRIAM,
Nick.

Not to be confused with this one.

--Doug


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Yes, you would think. 
>
> ** **
>
> From long experience with FRIAM  I have learned that it is best not to be
> lofty and wrong at the same time.  Lofty, occasionally?  Wrong, often! But
> never lofty AND wrong.  
>
> ** **
>
> See Dictionary.com **
> **
>
> ** **
>
> Not to be confused with biennial.  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Ross Goeres
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 11:03 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] Semiannual Time Change
>
> ** **
>
> I haven't read the posts but I would have thought someone would have
> noticed it's not a bi-annual time change and corrected the subject line.**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> BTW, the petition doesn't say biannual, does it?
>
> 
>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com