Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Stephen Weber]

Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I
mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.

From,
Stephen

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel  wrote:

>
> It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>
> WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a
> little while.
>
> Len
>
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Al boone]

I just got my low end G 5, I am NOT moving up to an intel Mac just to get
the latest and greatest. I am not.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber  wrote:

> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
> real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I
> mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.
>
> From,
> Stephen
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel  wrote:
>
>>
>> It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>>
>> WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>>
>> Sorry about that.
>>
>> Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a
>> little while.
>>
>> Len
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[roger deghetto]

me either i have my mdd  very happy with it sorry apple i dont want nothing to 
do with x86when you stop updateing 10.5 there will allways be a ppc linux distro

--- On Mon, 6/8/09, Al boone  wrote:

From: Al boone 
Subject: Re: It is official, we are orphans.
To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 2:30 PM

I just got my low end G 5, I am NOT moving up to an intel Mac just to get the 
latest and greatest. I am not.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber  wrote:

Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why real 
businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I mean 
look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.



From,
Stephen   

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel  wrote:




It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only



WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.



Sorry about that.



Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a

little while.



Len























  
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Sam Macomber]

Glad i told my uncle to just buy a new mini rather than fix his G4  
mini. :)

Was planning on upgrading our home computer in a year or so any  
how...as it is 10.5 and my QS G4 (with a 1.8GHz upgrade) is just  
fine for surfing the web, checking my email, serving A/V to my AppleTV  
and using Quicken(which is in need of an update bad..   thinking  
that'll be intel only when it happens so I'll just upgrade than)

-sam



> me either i have my mdd  very happy with it sorry apple i dont want  
> nothing to do with x86
> when you stop updateing 10.5 there will allways be a ppc linux distro
>
> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Al boone  wrote:
>
> From: Al boone 
> Subject: Re: It is official, we are orphans.
> To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 2:30 PM
>
> I just got my low end G 5, I am NOT moving up to an intel Mac just  
> to get the latest and greatest. I am not.
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber  
>  wrote:
> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you  
> wonder why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does  
> stuff like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep  
> supporting older hardware.
>
> From,
> Stephen
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel   
> wrote:
>
> It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>
> WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a
> little while.
>
> Len
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[insightinmind]

I love my QS 2002 Dual 1GHz under Leopard 10.5.7
I will like my new Digital Audio dual 533 (entering the FedEx system,  
almost) under Tiger 10.4.11
I like my Yikes! oc/d to 450 under Tiger 10.4.11
I liked my Performa 
I liked my Mac Plus

What's an Intel ...

Orphans?

We're in good company ...

Bill Connelly
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myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio




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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Alexander MacLeod]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:

> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
> real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.

And how long did you expect them to keep supporting the PPC
architecture, forever? And it's not like Snow Leopard is substantively
different than "regular" Leopard, it's just optimized for Intel
hardware. Personally, I'm looking forward to a new OS without all that
extra PPC code, and I still have some PPC Macs. I'll just keep running
10.5 on them.

> I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.

You mean, like Vista and the new formats in Office? Please.

Alex

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[insightinmind]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:43 PM, insightinmind wrote:

> I love my QS 2002 Dual 1GHz under Leopard 10.5.7
> I will like my new Digital Audio dual 533 (entering the FedEx  
> system, almost) under Tiger 10.4.11
> I like my Yikes! oc/d to 450 under Tiger 10.4.11

I forgot:
I liked my PPC 8500s under Panther and Tiger
I liked my 9500 (well the idea) under Panther (but not as much as the  
8500s)

> I liked my Performa 
> I liked my Mac Plus

Bill Connelly
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Iain Thornton]

Hi

Not sure about you lot, but most of us faced all this a while ago!

And compatibility has always been a marketing joke. Just because something is 
listed as compatible, it's not necessarily useful for the job. Now it just 
means that people can stop kidding I guess. Even if PPC was included, a beige 
G3 would have no use, even though some people seem to think it would. 

I do sympathise with anyone who owns a G5 however. This should never happen to 
a machine still so capable. And there are plenty of capable G4s so perhaps 
owners of those too

Still, good luck with the future. I guess this group is going to have to avoid 
dealing with current OS problems

regards

Iain Thornton


> > 
> 

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[John Musbach]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
> real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I
> mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.

But you also gotta realize that unlike Microsoft, Apple's source code
is not bloated with backwards compatibility hacks like Windows is. If
you look at the leaked NT source code you can see such outrageous
stuff like bits of windows 95 code being hacked on top for backwards
compatibility. This is actually Microsoft's ultimate fall because
these backwards compatibility hacks are catching up with them and
preventing decent security and stability. Additionally, because
Microsoft business consumers now expect this constant backwards
compatibility they are extremely constrained as to how they can revamp
the kernel. It is not a good situation and I applaud Apple for not
sticking hack on top of hack on their software to ensure constant
backwards compatibility.



-- 
Best Regards,

John Musbach

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Ted Treen]

Stephen Weber wrote:
> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder 
> why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff 
> like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting 
> older hardware.
>
> From,
> Stephen

Oh come on - you mean just like Vista ran quite happily on an average 
2004 Office basic Windows PC?

Ted

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Stephen Weber]

If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment would
have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty sure
Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm running
Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over Vista
SP1.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Ted Treen  wrote:

>
> Stephen Weber wrote:
> > Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder
> > why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff
> > like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting
> > older hardware.
> >
> > From,
> > Stephen
>
> Oh come on - you mean just like Vista ran quite happily on an average
> 2004 Office basic Windows PC?
>
> Ted
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[John Musbach]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
> If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment would
> have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty sure
> Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm running
> Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over Vista
> SP1.

Vista is crap... Is it just me or does your vista machine take forever
to shutdown while appearing to do nothing?



-- 
Best Regards,

John Musbach

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[dc]

You should download Monolingual, go to the "Architectures" tab and
remove PPC code. You can also remove languages you don't need. I did
that for my Intel-based "Mac" and it trimmed off over 2 GB, speeding
things up a bit.

On Jun 8, 1:43 pm, Alexander MacLeod  wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
> And it's not like Snow Leopard is substantively
> different than "regular" Leopard, it's just optimized for Intel
> hardware. Personally, I'm looking forward to a new OS without all that
> extra PPC code
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Steve R]

At 1:53 PM -0400 6/8/09, Len Gerstel posted:
>  It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>
>  WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>

W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!

Get over it!

Steve R


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Tim Gochnour]

LMAO!

Thanks for the laugh.  Sarcasm usually works to cheer me up

Thanks again!

Tim




On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:

> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you  
> wonder why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does  
> stuff like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep  
> supporting older hardware.
>
> From,
> Stephen
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel   
> wrote:
>
> It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>
> WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a
> little while.
>
> Len
>
>
>
>
>
> >


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Steve R wrote:

> W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!



Whaa?  I can do that!


And when Windows 7 comes out officially Apple will update their boot  
camp install so that you can indeed run Windows 7 on it . I know more  
than one person who bought a Mac pro *because* it's such a stable,  
good-performing Windows workstation. (This for doing Autocad and Rhino  
3D design stuff.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[James E. Therrault]

Alexander MacLeod wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
> 
> 
>>Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
>>real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.
> 
> 
> And how long did you expect them to keep supporting the PPC
> architecture, forever? And it's not like Snow Leopard is substantively
> different than "regular" Leopard, it's just optimized for Intel
> hardware. Personally, I'm looking forward to a new OS without all that
> extra PPC code, and I still have some PPC Macs. I'll just keep running
> 10.5 on them.
> 



Uh, for Apple to throw high end G5 (including the quads) under the bus 
in less than three years is just plain dumb..  But yet, Apple has done 
that time after time.

Whenever I move up to Intel, it will most likely be some sort of hackintosh.

Bah!

JT

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[insightinmind]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 5:22 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Steve R wrote:
>
>> W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!
>
>
>
> Whaa?  hallucination> I can do that!

I think it was sarcasm ... and OS 7 ...

Bill Connelly
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Arnel Tuazon]

On 08/06/09 5:22 PM, "Bruce Johnson"  wrote:

> 
> 
> On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Steve R wrote:
> 
>> W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!
> 
> 
> 
> Whaa?  hallucination> I can do that!
> 
> 
> And when Windows 7 comes out officially Apple will update their boot
> camp install so that you can indeed run Windows 7 on it . I know more
> than one person who bought a Mac pro *because* it's such a stable,
> good-performing Windows workstation. (This for doing Autocad and Rhino
> 3D design stuff.)

I'm not sure, but I think Steve was talking about the old Apple System 7.  I
don't see why Windows 7 wouldn't run on an Intel Mac.

I don't think this Snow Leopard will be much of a change over Leopard.  As
others have mentioned it simply is a way for Apple to cut costs and maximize
the code for one architecture.  I'm in the sad boat of G5 owners (2.3GHz
dual core) who are in the middle of the Apple ocean reaching for that oar,
but watching it drift away... oh well I guess it's time to get a mini!

On a side note, what cat will be after Snow Leopard and what happens once
Apple starts using Lion do they turn towards canines?   Oooh look the new OS
XI Jack Russell or Rotweiler or Huskey.  Just a thought.



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Josh Keady]

Um, I think by "System 7", he was referring to the REAL System 7...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_System_7

And as for the whole compatibility thing, Apple announced Intel-only
way back when they announced Snow Leopard.  It's not a surprise.  I
actually just finally upgraded my MDD dual 867 to a first-gen dual 2.0
GHz G5 (like, last week) and it's very pleasantly speedy.  I'm still
going to get an Intel MBP, however, because I want to do iPhone dev.

You've got to understand this about what's going on at Apple: all of
their machines have been Intel-only for a couple of years and they are
doing major code updates to their operating system.  It's SO much work
to do major updates on two completely different architectures (ie PPC
and Intel), it just doesn't make any sense for them to continue
supporting the PPC stuff.  Keep in mind, I'm usually four or five
years behind the curve, and I'd love to run the latest and greatest on
my G5, but I can completely understand why Apple would drop support
for them aside from security maintenance and bug fixes.

Josh

On Jun 8, 2:22 pm, Bruce Johnson  wrote:
> On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Steve R wrote:
>
> > W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!
>
> Whaa?  hallucination> I can do that!
>
> And when Windows 7 comes out officially Apple will update their boot  
> camp install so that you can indeed run Windows 7 on it . I know more  
> than one person who bought a Mac pro *because* it's such a stable,  
> good-performing Windows workstation. (This for doing Autocad and Rhino  
> 3D design stuff.)
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Arnel Tuazon wrote:

>>
>> And when Windows 7 comes out officially Apple will update their boot
>> camp install so that you can indeed run Windows 7 on it . I know more
>> than one person who bought a Mac pro *because* it's such a stable,
>> good-performing Windows workstation. (This for doing Autocad and  
>> Rhino
>> 3D design stuff.)
>
> I'm not sure, but I think Steve was talking about the old Apple  
> System 7.  I
> don't see why Windows 7 wouldn't run on an Intel Mac.


But I can run System 7 on my Intel iMac too!  Supports system 7.5.2-9.0.4 :-)

Come on...toss me a hard one! :-P

I could probably install PearPC in my XP virtual Machine to run an  
Apple II emulator if I really wanted to :-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[insightinmind]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Arnel Tuazon wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And when Windows 7 comes out officially Apple will update their boot
>>> camp install so that you can indeed run Windows 7 on it . I know  
>>> more
>>> than one person who bought a Mac pro *because* it's such a stable,
>>> good-performing Windows workstation. (This for doing Autocad and
>>> Rhino
>>> 3D design stuff.)
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think Steve was talking about the old Apple
>> System 7.  I
>> don't see why Windows 7 wouldn't run on an Intel Mac.
>
>
> But I can run System 7 on my Intel iMac too!  sheepshaver.cebix.net/
>> Supports system 7.5.2-9.0.4 :-)
>
> Come on...toss me a hard one! :-P
>
> I could probably install PearPC in my XP virtual Machine to run an
> Apple II emulator if I really wanted to :-)
>


Sounds like someone had their oatmeal cookies today ...
(I'll stop after this one ... I think)

Bill Connelly
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Alexander MacLeod]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:30 PM, James E. Therrault
 wrote:

> Uh, for Apple to throw high end G5 (including the quads) under the bus
> in less than three years is just plain dumb..  But yet, Apple has done
> that time after time.

But what is wrong with Leopard? It's a fine OS, and less than two
years old. Think about all the Windows users out there that run XP
(released in 2001) because Vista is so bad. I run Leopard on a maxed
out DP G5 2ghz machine at work, and it's great, and will continue to
be great in my estimation.

My new Mac Pro is really going to love Snow Leopard. I can't wait, and
a very reasonable upgrade price, too.

> Whenever I move up to Intel, it will most likely be some sort of hackintosh.

Suit yourself. I'd rather pay a little more for the genuine article.
Just my $.02...

Alex

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Mark]

Alexander MacLeod wrote:
>
>
> Think about all the Windows users out there that run XP
> (released in 2001) because Vista is so bad.
I have one of those stat analysis thingies on a website.
XP beats Mac a little over 2 to 1
Mac beats Vista a little over 2 to 1
amazing
well, to me

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:55 PM, insightinmind wrote:

>
> Sounds like someone had their oatmeal cookies today ...
> (I'll stop after this one ... I think)



I did, as a matter of fact...made a batch of oatmeal+raisin+chocolate  
chip+pecans yesterday. Yummy!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Stephen Weber]

On the laptop that I had Vista on it took only around 10 seconds to shutdown
from the time I pressed the shutdown button.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:34 PM, John Musbach  wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Stephen Weber
> wrote:
> > If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment would
> > have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty sure
> > Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm running
> > Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over Vista
> > SP1.
>
> Vista is crap... Is it just me or does your vista machine take forever
> to shutdown while appearing to do nothing?
>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> John Musbach
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Steve R]

At 3:30 PM -0700 6/8/09, Bruce Johnson posted:
>  On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:55 PM, insightinmind wrote:
>
>>
>>  Sounds like someone had their oatmeal cookies today ...
>>  (I'll stop after this one ... I think)
>
>
>
>  I did, as a matter of fact...made a batch of oatmeal+raisin+chocolate
>  chip+pecans yesterday. Yummy!
>


Didn't your mommy ever tell you that you're supposed to SHARE??

Steve R
who almost wrote System 6 but thought that was a bit unbelievable.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Stephen Conrad]

On 6/8/09, Arnel Tuazon  wrote:
>
> On a side note, what cat will be after Snow Leopard and what happens once
> Apple starts using Lion do they turn towards canines?   Oooh look the new OS
> XI Jack Russell or Rotweiler or Huskey.  Just a thought.

Believe me, the cat family is huge so no worries about running out of
cats to use for names.

Felidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most familiar felid is the Domestic Cat, which first became associated with
  humans about 1 years ago, but the family includes all other wild cats ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felidae - 199k

The Cat Family

Facts and statistics on felines, from lions to the domestic cat.
http://farheen_i.tripod.com/Cat.html

-- 
Steve Conrad
Henrietta, MO 64036

"The time has come for mankind to grow up and leave its cradle behind;
to go forth and claim our place in outer space."
   - Capt. Henry Gloval


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Help Bunny Take Over The World!

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Vic]

> W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!

Sure you can -- try Basilisk...

V Mabus
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/8/09 11:17 AM, "Stephen Weber"  Broadcast into
the ether:

> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why real
> businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I mean
> look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.

That is not at all true. I work for a couple of LARGE (300+) employees and
they are constantly upgrading their systems.  They keep server version
software longer, but that¹s about it.

Kyle Hansen
-- 
This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Len Gerstel  wrote:

>
> It is officially official. Snow leopard is Intel only
>
> WAAHHH, I want it to run on my Plus.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Hopefully they will keep updates coming for us (10.4 and 5) for a
> little while.
>
> ___


HMMM,  sounds like a case for agent x86 and his friend Psystar.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/8/09 10:53 PM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
Broadcast into the ether:

> HMMM,  sounds like a case for agent x86 and his friend Psystar.

You can build a hackintosh for about $300 if you google around...I am not at
all condoning that but...

Kyle Hansen
-- 
This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Kyle Hansen  wrote:

>  On 6/8/09 10:53 PM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
> Broadcast into the ether:
>
> HMMM,  sounds like a case for agent x86 and his friend Psystar.
>
>
> You can build a hackintosh for about $300 if you google around...I am not
> at all condoning that but...
>

__

Heavens no !

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 12:01 AM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
Broadcast into the ether:

> Heavens no ! 

I am looking at one right now...uh oh...no, no I am not.  I have a ³test²
computer that I fiddle with that I am looking at

Kyle Hansen
-- 
This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Po-en Tsai]

Also,

I might point out the MacBooks are now only polycarbonate white plastic.

The Aluminium Macbook is now the MacBook Pro with added Firewire and  
SD Card slot (all Macbook Pros have that now.) So there is now 13, 15  
and 17 inch MBP's!

This is probably the best WWDC there has been.

Po-en



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Charles Lee]

I think in the comment about Microsoft, he used sarcasm ...

>
> > I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.
>
> You mean, like Vista and the new formats in Office? Please.
>
> Alex
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Charles Lee]

Most of that "glitter" is put there to enhance security.  If you turn
it off you may as well be running XP.

On Jun 8, 2:31 pm, Stephen Weber  wrote:
> If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment would
> have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty sure
> Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm running
> Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over Vista
> SP1.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Ted Treen  wrote:
>
> > Stephen Weber wrote:
> > > Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder
> > > why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff
> > > like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting
> > > older hardware.
>
> > > From,
> > > Stephen
>
> > Oh come on - you mean just like Vista ran quite happily on an average
> > 2004 Office basic Windows PC?
>
> > Ted- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Isaac Smith]

Charles,

I think when Stephen said "glitter" he was referring to processor- 
hogging visual effects, not the security stuff.

Isaac

On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Charles Lee wrote:

>
> Most of that "glitter" is put there to enhance security.  If you turn
> it off you may as well be running XP.
>
> On Jun 8, 2:31 pm, Stephen Weber  wrote:
>> If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment  
>> would
>> have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty  
>> sure
>> Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm  
>> running
>> Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over  
>> Vista
>> SP1.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Ted Treen  
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen Weber wrote:
 Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you  
 wonder
 why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff
 like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting
 older hardware.
>>
 From,
 Stephen
>>
>>> Oh come on - you mean just like Vista ran quite happily on an  
>>> average
>>> 2004 Office basic Windows PC?
>>
>>> Ted- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> >


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Sam Macomber]

>
>
>> Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you  
>> wonder why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does  
>> stuff like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep  
>> supporting older hardware.
>
> That is not at all true. I work for a couple of LARGE (300+)  
> employees and they are constantly upgrading their systems.  They  
> keep server version software longer, but that’s about it.


just saw the server version is intel only as well...  DOHthree of  
our four xserves just got obsoleted,   two are G5s that handle the  
majority of the work one handles mail and web the other handles file  
sharing.  the 3rd is an old G4 it has 4 drive bays so that's our  
retrospect backup server which will stay as it is, still running  
10.4...  I'm not even working those G5s hard at all   so there is  
no need performance wise to upgrade, but   I know my boss is going to  
want all the new stuff in 10.6 for his iPhone

I wonder if that'll be like 10.4 and 10.5 with open directory  
incompatability or will 10.5 and 10.6 talk to each other   and will  
iCal 2.0 server require the clients to be on 10.6?   (has all the  
features we've been waiting for to replace the crash happy now up-to- 
date clients)

I'm gonna have my hands full this fall (unfortunately 10.6 will come  
out right at the beginning of our peak season too)


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

At 3:19 PM -0400 6/8/2009, John Musbach wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
>>  Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
>>  real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.  I
>>  mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.
>
>But you also gotta realize that unlike Microsoft, Apple's source code
>is not bloated with backwards compatibility hacks like Windows is.

Sure it is.  They just go on a rip-it-out frenzy per orders from Above.

This isn't about technological feasability.  This is about MARKETING.

There is a point where THINK DIFFERENT runs amok.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

At 2:43 PM -0400 6/8/2009, Alexander MacLeod wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:
>
>>  Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder why
>>  real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like this.

Exactly.

>And how long did you expect them to keep supporting the PPC 
>architecture, forever?

yes.  Or at least until the userbase becomes small.  Right now, the 
ppc userbase is still over 15%, over 20% in some markets.  That 
translates to millions of Macs...

>And it's not like Snow Leopard is substantively different than 
>"regular" Leopard, it's just optimized for Intel
>hardware.

Yea, there are some optimizations in it.  But mostly it's just not 
got the ppc code build.  Pretty stupid when you think about it, 
really.  OS X is NOT "intel only".  It builds nicely for a number of 
architectures.

So why rip out the ppc code?  It's not a technological requirement. 
It's MARKETING Jobs Ego.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Stephen Weber]

Yes Isaac that is what I've meant.  I've noticed that most businesses use
the "Windows Classic" theme.  Which is basically the theme from Windows
2000.

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Isaac Smith  wrote:

>
> Charles,
>
> I think when Stephen said "glitter" he was referring to processor-
> hogging visual effects, not the security stuff.
>
> Isaac
>
> On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Charles Lee wrote:
>
> >
> > Most of that "glitter" is put there to enhance security.  If you turn
> > it off you may as well be running XP.
> >
> > On Jun 8, 2:31 pm, Stephen Weber  wrote:
> >> If you turn off all the glitter (which in a work place environment
> >> would
> >> have been done any way) it should run pretty good.  Also I'm pretty
> >> sure
> >> Windows 7 will run great on a 2004 office basic computer.  I'm
> >> running
> >> Windows 7 RC right now and I've noticed a huge speed increment over
> >> Vista
> >> SP1.
> >>
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Ted Treen
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Stephen Weber wrote:
>  Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you
>  wonder
>  why real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff
>  like this.  I mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting
>  older hardware.
> >>
>  From,
>  Stephen
> >>
> >>> Oh come on - you mean just like Vista ran quite happily on an
> >>> average
> >>> 2004 Office basic Windows PC?
> >>
> >>> Ted- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > >
>
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Lana]

  I hate to stir up a tempest but another way Apple upsets people is 
price control and high prices. I am retired. I recently wanted to buy a new 
computer and very badly wanted a new Apple. I couldn't afford the one I 
wanted and the one I could,a Mac mini,offered much less in technology and 
price. I didn't want  buy  a used or refurbished computer. I couldn't find 
any End Of Life's in my area.For $599,I bought a Dell desktop,4 gig ram,5oo 
gig hard drive,intel core duo with Windows Home  Vista Premium ,64 bit.It 
came with new speakers,keyboard,mouse,printer and 19 inch monitor.Admittedly 
the monitor,mouse,keyboard and printer might have been last year's model but 
they all work with 64 bit.When you have been waiting 10 years to buy a new 
computer and are retired,a good deal has to be part of the decision. Apple 
has to work on this area.
 I am now looking for a G5  desktop with Leopard at a local computer 
show at Gibralter Trade Center or on Craig's List.I still want another Apple 
with Leopard on it but will have to wait. I prefer Apple. Apples prices are 
no higher than Windows in somethings but the price controls make the 
difference.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dan" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: It is official, we are orphans.


>
> At 3:19 PM -0400 6/8/2009, John Musbach wrote:
>>On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber 
>>wrote:
>>>  Apple does really know how to make people upset, obviously you wonder 
>>> why
>>>  real businesses don't use Macs.  It's because Apple does stuff like 
>>> this.  I
>>>  mean look at Microsoft and how they keep supporting older hardware.
>>
>>But you also gotta realize that unlike Microsoft, Apple's source code
>>is not bloated with backwards compatibility hacks like Windows is.
>
> Sure it is.  They just go on a rip-it-out frenzy per orders from Above.
>
> This isn't about technological feasability.  This is about MARKETING.
>
> There is a point where THINK DIFFERENT runs amok.
>
> - Dan.
> -- 
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth
>
> > 


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Iain Thornton]

I can't answer that quite directly, some I've come into contact do and some 
don't. However Vista is shit,I'll agree with that directly

Iain Thornton

--- On Mon, 8/6/09, John Musbach  wrote:


> Vista is crap... Is it just me or does your vista machine
> take forever
> to shutdown while appearing to do nothing?


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Iain Thornton]

Just feel lucky you still have a peak season!

regards

Iain Thornton

--- On Tue, 9/6/09, Sam Macomber  wrote:

> I'm gonna have my hands full this fall
> (unfortunately 10.6 will come out right at the beginning of
> our peak season too) 


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

At 10:51 AM -0500 6/9/2009, Lana wrote:
>I hate to stir up a tempest but another way Apple upsets people is
>price control and high prices.

On a feature by feature basis, Apple's systems are very well priced. 
But there is still a massive gap in the product line - the Mini is a 
waste and there's no other lower-end offering.

>I am now looking for a G5 desktop with Leopard at a local computer
>show at Gibralter Trade Center or on Craig's List.

Check also LEM Swap and eBay.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[PeterH]

On Jun 8, 2009, at 10:53 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

> HMMM,  sounds like a case for agent x86 and his friend Psystar.
>


No need to waste your money on OSx86 wanna-bes, such as Psystar.

Check-out the self-managed group mentioned below for both performance  
and economy OSx86 solutions which do not depend upon Psystar's  
crippled technology.



http://groups.google.com/group/hq-a <+> A home for the Hackintosh  
community.

To subscribe to the HQ-A group, send email to hq-a 
+subscr...@googlegroups.com




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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[James E. Therrault]

Kyle Hansen wrote:
> On 6/9/09 12:01 AM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio"  
> Broadcast into the ether:
> 
> Heavens no !
> 
> 
> I am looking at one right now...uh oh...no, no I am not.  I have a 
> “test” computer that I fiddle with that I am looking at
> 


I understand that certain PC(s) can run OS-X right out of the box with 
minimum hassles..

JT


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Jonas Ulrich]

I have seen ads for pc's that come new running leopard.

-Jonas

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:09 AM, James E.
Therrault wrote:
>
> Kyle Hansen wrote:
>> On 6/9/09 12:01 AM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
>> Broadcast into the ether:
>>
>>     Heavens no !
>>
>>
>> I am looking at one right now...uh oh...no, no I am not.  I have a
>> “test” computer that I fiddle with that I am looking at
>>
>
>
> I understand that certain PC(s) can run OS-X right out of the box with
> minimum hassles..
>
> JT
>
>
> >
>

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[James E. Therrault]

Sam Macomber wrote:

> just saw the server version is intel only as well...  DOHthree of 
> our four xserves just got obsoleted,   two are G5s that handle the 
> majority of the work one handles mail and web the other handles file 
> sharing.  the 3rd is an old G4 it has 4 drive bays so that's our 
> retrospect backup server which will stay as it is, still running 10.4... 
>  I'm not even working those G5s hard at all   so there is no need 
> performance wise to upgrade, but   I know my boss is going to want all 
> the new stuff in 10.6 for his iPhone 
> 
> I wonder if that'll be like 10.4 and 10.5 with open directory 
> incompatability or will 10.5 and 10.6 talk to each other   and will iCal 
> 2.0 server require the clients to be on 10.6?   (has all the features 
> we've been waiting for to replace the crash happy now up-to-date clients) 
> 
> I'm gonna have my hands full this fall (unfortunately 10.6 will come out 
> right at the beginning of our peak season too) 


If I were the head of a sizable operation that invested in the latest 
G5s I would be letting Apple know loud and clear that I am not a happy 
camper.

I was locked out of Lepeord due to my ancient G4 Gigabit having a low 
clockspeed of 400 MHz but that's OK.  Panther ran best on this machine 
but I do OK with Tiger.  OTOH, some folks run Tiger on earlier G3s.

Put simply, G5 support should have been maintained for the last 
generation PPCs IMNSHO...

JT



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Sam Macomber]

Well, that remains to be seen of course.   very reliant on retail, so  
see how the summer goes.  *crosses fingers*

-sam


>
>
> Just feel lucky you still have a peak season!
>
> regards
>
> Iain Thornton
>
> --- On Tue, 9/6/09, Sam Macomber  wrote:
>
>> I'm gonna have my hands full this fall
>> (unfortunately 10.6 will come out right at the beginning of
>> our peak season too)
>
>
> >
>


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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:27 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:

>
> If I were the head of a sizable operation that invested in the latest
> G5s I would be letting Apple know loud and clear that I am not a happy
> camper.

Most corporations operate on a 3-4 year refresh cycle, particularly  
for things like servers. When they go out of warrantee, it's time to  
replace 'em, because the business losses associated with downtime  
VASTLY outweigh the costs of getting new equipment.

Secondly, businesses that made a significant investment on G5  
technology pretty much hung on until Adobe was Intel-compatible,  
meaning CS3, then they dumped their g5's for the vastly improved Mac  
Pros.

Don't forget...there's an enormous performance improvement between the  
PPC and the Intel generations.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

At 9:43 AM -0700 6/9/2009, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:27 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:
>  > If I were the head of a sizable operation that invested in the latest
>>  G5s I would be letting Apple know loud and clear that I am not a happy
>>  camper.
>
>Most corporations operate on a 3-4 year refresh cycle, particularly 
>for things like servers.

Gov't, the LARGEST "consumer", runs on a 4 to 6 year cycle.

>When they go out of warrantee, it's time to replace 'em, because the 
>business losses associated with downtime VASTLY outweigh the costs 
>of getting new equipment.

Capital equipment vs overhead budget issue.  ROI.

Downtime is less important, as downed servers are simply swapped out 
with spares.


This particular upgrade, I must admit, is creating a lot more 
grumbling in the biz world then I expected.  The main reason - 
maintenance.  Before Snow Leopard:  We had a single universal image 
that we could slap onto any machine.  Now, we have to maintain two 
images and keep track of which machine gets what.

Apple has never been very good at the business environment.  And this 
is a large step backwards.

- Dan.
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Sam Macomber]

>
>
> If I were the head of a sizable operation that invested in the latest
> G5s I would be letting Apple know loud and clear that I am not a happy
> camper.


well we're small so complaining won't change a thing with apple.If  
10.6 plays nice with 10.5   I think we'll be fine and we'll just run  
10.6 on the capable machines

but nothing on apple's site gives any indication,my main concern  
with the server is OD.  can a 10.5 master replicate to a 10.6  
machine?It is a bit of a worry as when we upgraded to 10.5, it  
would not replicate to the older 10.4 servers so we had to upgrade  
everything.   Also will the iCal2 server in 10.6 play nice with iCal  
on 10.5 client machines?this is a slightly lower concern, people  
who very much need the calender are about due for a computer  
upgrade(minis will serve very well for those people)

it'll be an interesting fall around here!  be nice if it came out now,  
things are slow in the summer.

-sam

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Josh Keady]

On Jun 9, 7:25 am, Dan  wrote:
> At 2:43 PM -0400 6/8/2009, Alexander MacLeod wrote:
>
> >On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Weber wrote:

>
> >And how long did you expect them to keep supporting the PPC
> >architecture, forever?
>
> yes.  Or at least until the userbase becomes small.  Right now, the
> ppc userbase is still over 15%, over 20% in some markets.  That
> translates to millions of Macs...
>
> >And it's not like Snow Leopard is substantively different than
> >"regular" Leopard, it's just optimized for Intel
> >hardware.
>
> Yea, there are some optimizations in it.  But mostly it's just not
> got the ppc code build.  Pretty stupid when you think about it,
> really.  OS X is NOT "intel only".  It builds nicely for a number of
> architectures.

It builds nicely, the core, but it's not as simple as just clicking
Build and having the OS all ready to go, surely you know that.  You
can compile Darwin for several different architectures but the Mac OS
it doesn't make.

How is this a marketing move?  They want that lucrative Power PC-
owning market share?  Or new users will say "Phew, thank God they
don't support that crusty old PPC hardware anymore, I'm finally ready
to buy?"  It just does not make enough sense for them ton continue
developing on the Power PC side.  It doesn't.

>
> So why rip out the ppc code?  It's not a technological requirement.
> It's MARKETING Jobs Ego.

They COULD move a few Snow Leopard items to PPC, I'm sure, like
Exchange support and some UI refinements, but then they have to fork
the whole distribution because they can't integrate core technologies
like Grand Central Dispatch (which is WAY more than "some
optimizations") and so you have two different operating systems in two
different states and you have to try to maintain them and market
them.  It's possible, but it sure isn't optimal.  And this is a guess,
but I'd wager that in their moving the system apps to full 64-bit
support, they're also probably marrying those applications to Intel.

Apple does a lot of jackass things, I think that's undeniable, but I
don't see this as anyone's act of ego, I see it as a means of keeping
the OS lean and trim, and I appreciate that.  I appreciate it as a PPC
user, knowing that I'm not going to have to suffer through updates
that don't work and slow bug fixes, and I appreciate it as an Intel
user, knowing that the OS is keeping up with the hardware.

Josh

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

At 1:12 PM -0700 6/9/2009, Josh Keady wrote:
>On Jun 9, 7:25 am, Dan  wrote:
>  > OS X is NOT "intel only".  It builds nicely for a number of architectures.
>
>It builds nicely, the core, but it's not as simple as just clicking 
>Build and having the OS all ready to go, surely you know that.  You 
>can compile Darwin for several different architectures but the Mac 
>OS it doesn't make.

I never said anything about the released Darwin code.  The subject is 
the full OS, as built by Apple internally.

>How is this a marketing move?  They want that lucrative Power PC-
>owning market share?  Or new users will say "Phew, thank God they
>don't support that crusty old PPC hardware anymore, I'm finally ready
>to buy?"  It just does not make enough sense for them ton continue
>developing on the Power PC side.  It doesn't.

Screwing existing customers is always a good way to make them buy 
you're latest offering.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Steve R]

At 1:12 PM -0700 6/9/09, Josh Keady posted:
>  They COULD move a few Snow Leopard items to PPC

They will, "they" being the active community of hackers that got OS X 
to load on Windows, and "they" being the active community of hackers 
that got Tiger and Leopard to run on earlier Mac architectures that 
were unsupported. I think everyone moaning and groaning about Snow 
Leopard's shortfalls is selling the
Mac _community_ short. Let's wait and see what comes out of the 
_community_. "They" haven't let us down yet.

Every orphan knows there's family of birth and family of choice.

Steve R

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Josh Keady]

The entire "full OS" still has to be _maintained_, by a team of
people, who have to work with the Intel people, writing brand new code
for the PPC as the Intel version is updated.  In your last message,
you said it was a simple matter of building a PPC version.  I'm
saying, it's not.  I'll reiterate what I wrote in the last post:

They COULD move a few Snow Leopard items to PPC, I'm sure, like
Exchange support and some UI refinements, but then they have to fork
the whole distribution because they can't integrate core technologies
like Grand Central Dispatch (which is WAY more than "some
optimizations") and so you have two different operating systems in
two
different states and you have to try to maintain them and market
them.  It's possible, but it sure isn't optimal.  And this is a
guess,
but I'd wager that in their moving the system apps to full 64-bit
support, they're also probably marrying those applications to Intel.

I'm sorry, but that is NOT simple.

>
> Screwing existing customers is always a good way to make them buy
> you're latest offering.
>
> - Dan.

So you're on board?

Josh
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Dan]

hum.  Looks like Apple has ripped out the rest of AppleTalk from Snow Leopard?

So no more using AppleTalk printers etc...

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Dan  wrote:

>
> At 1:12 PM -0700 6/9/2009, Josh Keady wrote:
> >On Jun 9, 7:25 am, Dan  wrote:
> >  > OS X is NOT "intel only".  It builds nicely for a number of
> architectures.
> >
> >It builds nicely, the core, but it's not as simple as just clicking
> >Build and having the OS all ready to go, surely you know that.  You
> >can compile Darwin for several different architectures but the Mac
> >OS it doesn't make.
>
> I never said anything about the released Darwin code.  The subject is
> the full OS, as built by Apple internally.
>
> >How is this a marketing move?  They want that lucrative Power PC-
> >owning market share?  Or new users will say "Phew, thank God they
> >don't support that crusty old PPC hardware anymore, I'm finally ready
> >to buy?"  It just does not make enough sense for them ton continue
> >developing on the Power PC side.  It doesn't.
>
> Screwing existing customers is always a good way to make them buy
> you're latest offering.
> _



I imagine there are some poor art directors out there who put their asses on
the line 3 years ago and got there bosses tospend heavily on multicore G5s
with all the trimmings.

Does Apple really expect them to now put their asses on the line again to
recommend buying Mac Pros after curtailing the productive life of expensive
machinery?  Hard enough to expect in good times but in a near depression?

Apple is crazy and somewhere business owners are angry.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Josh Keady]

I don't think that THEY will.  "They" would have to pull off a pretty
big miracle to make Snow Leopard run on PPC.  It's a fundamentally
totally different architecture and it's just not gonna happen.

Josh

On Jun 9, 1:41 pm, Steve R  wrote:
> At 1:12 PM -0700 6/9/09, Josh Keady posted:
>
> >  They COULD move a few Snow Leopard items to PPC
>
> They will, "they" being the active community of hackers that got OS X
> to load on Windows, and "they" being the active community of hackers
> that got Tiger and Leopard to run on earlier Mac architectures that
> were unsupported. I think everyone moaning and groaning about Snow
> Leopard's shortfalls is selling the
> Mac _community_ short. Let's wait and see what comes out of the
> _community_. "They" haven't let us down yet.
>
> Every orphan knows there's family of birth and family of choice.
>
> Steve R
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 1:47 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

> Does Apple really expect them to now put their asses on the line  
> again to
> recommend buying Mac Pros after curtailing the productive life of  
> expensive
> machinery?  Hard enough to expect in good times but in a near  
> depression?

I'm sorry, I must have missed the line where they said "All PowerPC  
systems will drop dead the moment Snow Leopard is released." This  
doesn't curtail the productive life of their existing PPC systems.  
Anyone looking for performance has bitten the bullet and bought a Mac  
Pro.

Time == Money, and hardware costs in ANY business are miniscule in  
comparison to wetware costs.

How long would an ad agency that could get 20% improved output take to  
make enough money to pay for those new Mac Pros? Not very long at all.

Moreover, any Art Director that maxed out on G5's after June 2005  
(When Apple announced the move to Intel and the roadmap for the  
transition) deserves to lose their job.

ANYONE in the business of speccing Mac systems should have immediately  
gone into a 'The only systems we buy are what we HAVE to' mode, and  
waited to get a clearer idea of the transition. That the developer  
systems that debuted at WWDC that year were amazingly fast running  
Intel-native software should have clued everyone in.

When Apple introduced the first MacBook the next January with  
performance that simply smoked the best Powerbook then available,  
nobody should have been making massive purchases of G5's.

Finally, if Apple is crazy, this is craziness the rest of the  
corporate world would love to catch. Their sales went down a few  
percent in the last quarter, true.

HP's went down 16%, iirc and Dell almost 25%.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 1:12 PM, "Josh Keady"  Broadcast into the
ether:

> How is this a marketing move?  They want that lucrative Power PC-
> owning market share?  Or new users will say "Phew, thank God they
> don't support that crusty old PPC hardware anymore, I'm finally ready
> to buy?"  It just does not make enough sense for them ton continue
> developing on the Power PC side.  It doesn't.

As an ex-Apple employee and current Apple Certified Technician I COMPLETELY
agree with the above statement.

I am a nanny here, and I am well aware that this *is* lowendmac.com, but you
guys have this thread running well into the future which is not what this
list is really for but what the heck.

If you want to figure out a way to make it work do so.  If you want to
compile Hyper Card stacks on your se/30, then do so.  But whining about the
fact that now they are going Intel only with their OS is not intelligent
imo.  The OS is what Apple is all about and they need to tune it to their
hardware...especially their processor.  Apple rolled out Intel based
machines in 2006.  That is 3 years and 5 months ago. That is a long time in
the computing world. They did so in YOUR best interest.  Intel has a better
roadmap for the future.  IBM and Motorola had not met goals that they
promised.  Intel is a better processor for desktop computers and laptops.
Apple is thinking Laptops, Phones and iPods primarily.  Because that is
where the users are going.  I'm 41 and despise tweeting.  But the times they
are a changin' with or without me.

Let me put it this way, if you owned a business and the employee was
supposed to start his/her shift at 8am every day but never showed up until
10am, and also was supposed to start in 2009 but didn't show up until 2010
would you keep that employee? Hell no.  Think about it for a few minutes.

>From wikipedia:

"Jobs stated that Apple's primary motivation for the transition was their
disappointment with the progress of IBM's development of PowerPC technology,
and their greater faith in Intel to meet Apple's needs. In particular, he
cited the performance per watt (that is, the speed per unit of electrical
power) projections in the roadmap provided by Intel. This is an especially
important consideration in laptop design affecting hours of use per battery
charge."

Apple is working in your best interest.  Motorola is going into phone
processors etc, and Apple is thinking ahead, not behind.

So run what you want.  But don't bitch about it.  I have an Apple ][e
sitting close by with dual 5" floppy disks so I can play Zork and Sneakers
whenever I wanna get nostalgic.  I also have all the old gaming consoles
ready to go at a moments notice with over a hundred Atari cartridges.  I am
with you.  But you guys have to really think this through.

Kyle Hansen
-- 
This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Eric Volker]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Kyle Hansen wrote:
> As an ex-Apple employee and current Apple Certified Technician I  
> COMPLETELY
> agree with the above statement.
>
> I am a nanny here, and I am well aware that this *is* lowendmac.com,  
> but you
> guys have this thread running well into the future which is not what  
> this
> list is really for but what the heck.

I agree that Apple needs to look ahead and plan for the future.  
However, I don't think they should abandon the G5 so readily.  
Supposedly compiling Universal Builds is as simple as clicking a check  
box in Xcode. Not being a developer, I don't know if this is actually  
true or not. However, if it is, it requires basically zero effort to  
compile a binary that will run on Intel or PPC. Granted the extra code  
will take up more space, but that doesn't seem sufficient reason to  
leave all of us G5 owners in the dust. Or is Mr. Jobs trying to get us  
to buy shiny new Mac Pros?

Eric

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 1:52 PM, "Josh Keady"  Broadcast into the
ether:

> They COULD move a few Snow Leopard items to PPC, I'm sure, like
> Exchange support and some UI refinements, but then they have to fork
> the whole distribution because they can't integrate core technologies
> like Grand Central Dispatch (which is WAY more than "some
> optimizations") and so you have two different operating systems in

And I will AGAIN agree with this statement.  Read the post I made a few
minutes ago and you will get it.

Kyle Hansen
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 1:56 PM, "Dan"  Broadcast into the ether:

> 
> hum.  Looks like Apple has ripped out the rest of AppleTalk from Snow Leopard?
> 
> So no more using AppleTalk printers etc...
> 
> - Dan.
> -- 

It's been Ron-Day-Voo and Bonjour for years now.

Kyle Hansen
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 2:50 PM, "Bruce Johnson"  Broadcast
into the ether:

> I'm sorry, I must have missed the line where they said "All PowerPC
> systems will drop dead the moment Snow Leopard is released."

Hha hah hahah  ha ha.  Well said sir.

> Moreover, any Art Director that maxed out on G5's after June 2005
> (When Apple announced the move to Intel and the roadmap for the
> transition) deserves to lose their job.
> ANYONE in the business of speccing Mac systems should have immediately
> gone into a 'The only systems we buy are what we HAVE to' mode, and
> waited to get a clearer idea of the transition. That the developer
> systems that debuted at WWDC that year were amazingly fast running
> Intel-native software should have clued everyone in.

EXACTLY!

Kyle Hansen
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Clark Martin]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Kyle Hansen wrote:

>
> On 6/9/09 1:56 PM, "Dan"  Broadcast into the  
> ether:
>
>>
>> hum.  Looks like Apple has ripped out the rest of AppleTalk from  
>> Snow Leopard?
>>
>> So no more using AppleTalk printers etc...
>>
>> - Dan.
>> -- 
>
> It's been Ron-Day-Voo and Bonjour for years now.

And Apple has been saying to get away from AppleTalk for years  
now.So we've been warned.

A couple of years ago I got a new WiFi router.  One day I happened to  
pull up something that scanned AppleTalk on my laptop.  I was  
surprised to find it was showing several machines on the network.  I  
didn't know this router (a Motorola) supported AppleTalk wirelessly,  
it didn't mention it at all anywhere in the manual.  It didn't matter  
though, there is nothing I need to do with my laptop that requires  
AppleTalk.

I do have some machines running OS 9 or earlier but even they don't  
make much use of AT.  And frankly I don't use them often.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

I expect no less than progress from Apple and while admitting envy for those
who can move up to it I know that for each one of those in todays ecobomy
therre will be many more whose businesses will fall further behind because
they believed enough to invest heavily in high end G5s relatively recently.

And they may fail sooner for not having the ability to go Intel. Good for
the big guys and bad for those with jobs lost.

That's right Apple, embrace Windows users and
alienate Mac true believers. Great business plan.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/9/09 9:16 PM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
Broadcast into the ether:

> I expect no less than progress from Apple and while admitting envy for those
> who can move up to it I know that for each one of those in todays ecobomy
> therre will be many more whose businesses will fall further behind because
> they believed enough to invest heavily in high end G5s relatively recently.
> 
> And they may fail sooner for not having the ability to go Intel. Good for the
> big guys and bad for those with jobs lost.
> 
> That's right Apple, embrace Windows users and
> alienate Mac true believers. Great business plan.

All the stuff they are doing now will be the same.  There will be some
transitioning just like from OS9 to OSX.  Everyone calm down.  I have inside
info on this but I have also signed an NDA so I can not share.

Kyle Hansen
-- 
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Kyle Hansen  wrote:

>
> All the stuff they are doing now will be the same.  There will be some
> transitioning just like from OS9 to OSX.  Everyone calm down.  I have inside
> info on this but I have also signed an NDA so I can not share.
>
=

That is not the problem. 604s still do the stuff they did in the old days
too.

They problem is for those who bought G5s for workstations  right before
their obsolescence, who thought they could at least pay those off and make a
profit before the competition ran over them.

Home users and non business types are losers to the degree that they need to
run new software.

And for true low end mac types like myself it means the sooner I get hands
on cool hardware that is still generations behind the curve.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Kyle Hansen]

On 6/10/09 12:55 AM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
Broadcast into the ether:

> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Kyle Hansen  wrote:
>> 
>> All the stuff they are doing now will be the same.  There will be some
>> transitioning just like from OS9 to OSX.  Everyone calm down.  I have inside
>> info on this but I have also signed an NDA so I can not share.
>> 
> =
> 
> That is not the problem. 604s still do the stuff they did in the old days too.
> 
> They problem is for those who bought G5s for workstations  right before their
> obsolescence, who thought they could at least pay those off and make a profit
> before the competition ran over them.
> 
> Home users and non business types are losers to the degree that they need to
> run new software.
> 
> And for true low end mac types like myself it means the sooner I get hands on
> cool hardware that is still generations behind the curve.
> 
> 
First off, if you bought a G5 right before it¹s obsolescence that¹s your
fault.   Any person that is remotely interested in Mac¹s knows the signs and
knows when they are rolling a new product out.  When ipod shuffles are free
after a mail in rebate guess what?  They are clearing their supply chain and
there are about to be new shuffles on the market.  So if you hold out for
the best deal, and wait for the sale you will get screwed every time.  Thy
announce at Macworld (or used to) now at WWDC.  So Don¹t buy anything around
those times.  And the software that runs on the G5¹s is still competitive
with the new stuff.  Final cut Pro is Final Cut Pro.  Just takes longer to
crunch on an older machine.  And the G5¹s are 3 years old.  That is ARCHAIC
in modern computing.  Moore¹s law.  Every 18 months.  You already know all
this stuff Wallace.

Kyle Hansen
-- 
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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 4:15 AM, Kyle Hansen  wrote:

>  On 6/10/09 12:55 AM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
> Broadcast into the ether:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Kyle Hansen  wrote:
>
>
> All the stuff they are doing now will be the same.  There will be some
> transitioning just like from OS9 to OSX.  Everyone calm down.  I have inside
> info on this but I have also signed an NDA so I can not share.
>
> =
>
> That is not the problem. 604s still do the stuff they did in the old days
> too.
>
> They problem is for those who bought G5s for workstations  right before
> their obsolescence, who thought they could at least pay those off and make a
> profit before the competition ran over them.
>
> Home users and non business types are losers to the degree that they need
> to run new software.
>
> And for true low end mac types like myself it means the sooner I get hands
> on cool hardware that is still generations behind the curve.
>
>
> First off, if you bought a G5 right before it’s obsolescence that’s your
> fault.   Any person that is remotely interested in Mac’s knows the signs and
> knows when they are rolling a new product out.  When ipod shuffles are free
> after a mail in rebate guess what?  They are clearing their supply chain and
> there are about to be new shuffles on the market.  So if you hold out for
> the best deal, and wait for the sale you will get screwed every time.  Thy
> announce at Macworld (or used to) now at WWDC.  So Don’t buy anything around
> those times.  And the software that runs on the G5’s is still competitive
> with the new stuff.  Final cut Pro is Final Cut Pro.  Just takes longer to
> crunch on an older machine.  And the G5’s are 3 years old.  That is ARCHAIC
> in modern computing.  Moore’s law.  Every 18 months.  You already know all
> this stuff Wallace.
> _
>



Luckily I can use Mac Pros and other Macs at the University. So this does
not really effect me that much.

But I question alienating users during hard times as a wise business
strategy. The Mac Intel newbies won't notice when the loyalists abandon
ship. Their heads will be buried in Windows and they will have the most
expensive PCs with Apple badges.

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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>
> That's right Apple, embrace Windows users and
> alienate Mac true believers. Great business plan.


Actually, since Apple's consistently profitable and is outperforming  
all the rest of the major PC manufacturers in this economy, I'd say  
damn straight it's a good business plan!

What 'true believers' are they alienating?

The ones who won't buy a new Mac every four to five years? What's in  
it for Apple to spend millions to keep supporting these people?  
Keeping 68K support in the Mac OS after the PPC transition helped kill  
the Mac OS during a time when Windows 95 and 98 were killing it in the  
market.

It wasn't until 8.6 that the last of the 68K code was purged from the  
OS. Apple's misfortunes in the mid-late 90's can't be laid at the foot  
of the slow development of the classic OS, there were some remarkably  
stupid things done throughout the company, but the grim determination  
to maintain backwards compatibility DID doom all efforts to update the  
Mac OS into a modern form. OS X was a clean break, and Apple has  
steadily shed backwards compatibility throughout the product's  
lifetime. Beige G3's with 10.3, G3's with 10.5, G4's and G5's with 10.6.

Apple doesn't need 'true believer' evangelists anymore. The last ten  
or so macs that have come into our building have been for people I  
would have never in a million years expected to switch.

Those Windows users are coming over of their own accord; starting at  
the top...the Dean of the college and both department heads use 'em,  
and each of the 5 specialty research centers have Macs in 'em as well.

Much of this is a DIRECT CONSEQUENCE of Apple's move to Intel.

Like it or not, progress happens, and NO ONE who has been even  
peripherally involved with Apple and IT professionally should be the  
slighted surprised or angry with the move to Intel-only for 10.6.

A great deal of the 'failure' of Vista can be ascribed to Microsoft  
when they lowballed the system requirements for Vista, to intimate  
that any system that could run XP would run Vista.

They could, but horribly, horribly slowly. This was to Vista what the  
'Doonesbury effect' was to the Newton: an early stumble that they  
never recovered from. Consumers stayed away in droves form upgrading,  
and since the solution was to buy a new computer, well, "Hell, I gotta  
buy a new computer anyway, and Jerry down the block who just got his  
Apple keeps raving about it, guess I'll check it out."

This is business as usual for Apple, always has been. They have  
consistently dropped older systems whenever it would compromise  
performance and the user experience..the user experience is THE ONLY  
THING Apple sells.

Not cool, or looks, or Steve's overinflated ego or any of the other  
crap you hear about: the difference between OS X and Windows is using  
the thing. The difference between the iPod and any of it's (now)  
distant competitors is not 'everybody has to have one to be cool' or  
'stupid  Apple fanbois', but the fact that it is staggeringly simple  
to to complex things with.

The Dean of the college brought this home to me yesterday. He said "  
When I run into something I don't know how to do on the Mac, all I  
have to do is stop, calm down, and do what comes naturally, it almost  
always works. I only have trouble when I get stressed and start just  
trying things."

That's a deep, deep level of UI design.

Recent switchers are the evangelizing force behind new switchers.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:43 AM,  wrote:
> On 6/10/09, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>> ...I question alienating users during hard times as a wise business
>> strategy. The Mac Intel newbies won't notice when the loyalists abandon
>> ship. Their heads will be buried in Windows and they will have the most
>> expensive PCs with Apple badges.
>
> When loyalists "abandon" Apple it's usually because they've finally come to
> admit that a computer is a computer. Except for a few die-hards, the days of
> the elitist have passed. Any machine will do what 98% of users require. It's
> just a matter of personal choice. The remaining 2% need extra crunching
> power and are mostly accessing super computers. Don't ask me where the
> figures come from because I won't tell. :-)
>

_

A stance which many Amigans found necessary to adopt. The fall of
Commodore brought more than a decade of promises and bad business
practices from around the world.

And after all we just wanted to run that sweet OS!

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Re: [G3-5]Re: It is official, we are orphans.

[MaGioZal]

On 6/8/09 9:45 PM, Vic at  wrote:

>> W! I can't run System 7 on my Intel iMac! Damn Apple!
> 
> Sure you can -- try Basilisk...


Well, I've just got the brand-new Safari 4 running on my old Beige G3 Mac.
I felt a little less orphan...;-D
 




--
MaGioZal.




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