subject:"Re\: Why are you \(still\) using PowerPC\-based Macs\?"

On 1/30/10 1:31 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio at 
wrote:

> $ problems seems to be the underlying reason in the majority of statements in
> this thread. Otherwise I suspect most of us would buy new Macs and not regret
> the move.


My intention is to buy a brand-new Intel MacBook, but let my current
day-by-day computer (a Beige G3 with 640MB RAM/80GB HD with Tiger and OS
9/Samsung DVD writer) still funcioning as a backup/internet server machine.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/30/10 1:04 PM, JoeTaxpayer at  wrote:

> The G4 is friendly to upgrades. Maxed out the memory to 2GB. For $10
> added a USB 2.0 card. Easy to add Hard Drives as I catch them getting
> cheaper and cheaper.


That' what a like in minitower CPUs. Think about the fact that a
first-generation iBook will be locked forever on slow USB 1.1... And a
800x600 screen.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/25/10 10:17 PM, Kasey Smith at  wrote:

> The only iMac to ever
> have an expansion slot were the very  first (Rev.A) tray-load iMacs.

That was the "mezzanine" PCI slot.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/25/10 7:05 PM, coolr...@comcast.net at  wrote:

> I know someday I'll have to upgrade to Intel just as I had to upgrade
> from OS9 a few years ago but for now everything is working. As Bruce
> quoted the old axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."


Another thing to consider is that older Macs are quite cheap and you feel
more comfortable to open and hack trough it...;-)
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/24/10 1:55 PM, Dan at  wrote:

> Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But I
> really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very cool.
> sigh.  Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good industrial
> design should, IMO, include easy-open / access features.  Yea, I know
> - Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze - 90% of the bench time
> should NOT be taken up by just opening and closing a machine!

Apple is somehow schizo in its CPU designs: or it made them VERY EASY to
open and upgrade (Centris 660/PowerMac 6100, LC I/II/III/Performa 475,
PowerMac 8600/PowerMac Beige G3, Mac G4 Cube, Blue and White G3 and all
other minitower CPUs before the G5) or TERRIBILY DIFFICULT to open and
upgrade (the original 128k and all other compact all-in-one Macs based on
it, the Quadra 840/PowerMac8100/PowerMac 8500, the PowerMac 4400/7220
series, all iMacs in general, MacMinis).

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-02-14 Thread Daniel Stewart

I use a Power Mac G4 because I can afford it, it is very attractive
and it is very stable.  In fact a friend of mine who works with them
in a professional capacity  at a print shop and she said in their
experience in the art room their old G4 Power Macs are more
consistently reliable then their Brand new Intel Macs.  That seems
like good enough reasons for me.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:13 PM, MaGioZal  wrote:
> On 1/23/10 3:36 PM, Mac User #330250 at  wrote:
>
>> One thing is certain though: Intel gave the Macs the performance boost to
>> compete the PCs again. I don't blame Apple for that. It just would have been
>> nice of Apple to extend support for Tiger (Classic) and Leopard (Mac OS X on
>> PowerPC) due to this.
>
>
> Do you remember the "Run to the GigaHertz" in early 2000s? As far as I can
> remember Apple had to wait almost 2 years before launching a
> GigaHertz-processor machine, and this was a great marketing blow for Steve
> Jobs' company.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> MaGioZal.
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
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> Macs.
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-02-14 Thread Michael G.M.

My G4 (DA) 800 plays iTunes movies well and plays non-HD youtube
videos fine.
The TV seems like a good choice for iTunes too and maybe beyond.(I
think you can get youtube vids to play on it or at least export them
with QT Pro) It's only $230! Less if you get one refurbished!
I'm probably going to get an  TV. At least I can enjoy all my iTunes
goodness in 100% cool and I'll be almost at the full intel Mac
status.

-Mike

On Feb 14, 11:40 pm, MaGioZal  wrote:
> On 1/22/10 7:41 PM, Dan at  wrote:
>
> > At home, I think it's pretty stupid to dedicate a $1000+ computer to
> > play streaming radio and drive a scanner.
>
> But for YouTube videos, it is very hard to handle them in older computers.
> :-/
>
> --
> MaGioZal.
> 

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 3:36 PM, Mac User #330250 at  wrote:

> One thing is certain though: Intel gave the Macs the performance boost to
> compete the PCs again. I don't blame Apple for that. It just would have been
> nice of Apple to extend support for Tiger (Classic) and Leopard (Mac OS X on
> PowerPC) due to this.


Do you remember the "Run to the GigaHertz" in early 2000s? As far as I can
remember Apple had to wait almost 2 years before launching a
GigaHertz-processor machine, and this was a great marketing blow for Steve
Jobs' company.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 3:36 PM, Mac User #330250 at  wrote:

>> GIMP is nice.  I prefer GraphicConverter 5.9.5 on the Smurf.
> 
> I'll check it out. But I'm guessing that GraphicConverter isn't free...

...but is completely usable in its shareware version. Well, you'll get a
annoying "hang-on startup screen", but this is very little compared with the
capabilities of this software.

Anyway, GC is the one of the few sharewares I think is worth paying for. And
as of 2010, they still support Mac OS 9 and PowerPC.

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 2:38 PM, Da'Birdman at  wrote:

> I find Tiger performs noticeably faster than Panther.


Believe me, sometimes I feel Tiger as quick (or as slow...:-P) as Jaguar on
my Beige G3.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 1:59 PM, Dan at  wrote:

>> Adobe Reader 9.2 (I yet have to update to 9.3!)
> 
> If you don't need Reader for something specific, use Preview instead.


Or Apple's Safari, which is pretty confortable to view some PDFs.
;-)
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 11:37 AM, Lawrence David Eden at  wrote:

> I watch videos on the
> internet...voice and video are a little out of sync.


YouTube videos here are COMPLETELY out of sync, even when they'e completely
downloaded. :-/
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/23/10 10:41 AM, Mac User #330250 at  wrote:

> My experience is different, since all the Macs I have make a lot of noise. The
> most silent Power Mac I own is the G5 "Late 2005" which has liquid cooling
> (even though it is the 2.0 GHz single processor (Dual Core) model -- I've read
> contrary information at everymac.com about the cooling system).

Well, my Beige G3 is quite silent, mainly now when it has a 80GB ATA Maxtor
HD. The former HD, a 9.1GB Ultra-SCSI IBM, oinked like a mad pig.
:-P
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/22/10 7:41 PM, Dan at  wrote:

> At home, I think it's pretty stupid to dedicate a $1000+ computer to
> play streaming radio and drive a scanner.


But for YouTube videos, it is very hard to handle them in older computers.
:-/
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/22/10 7:41 PM, Dan at  wrote:

> All my Macs, that run System 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, Panther, and
> Tiger, are still running.  They didn't suddenly gak the other day.


The only BIG problem for these older OSes is web surfing.
:-/
 




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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-02-14 Thread Ashgrove

Why?

'Cause they rock. 'Nuff said.

Felix

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/21/10 7:12 PM, Mac User #330250 at  wrote:

> But then... I love the Power Mac/Mac Pro aluminium case. It is beautiful but
> still functional and an do-it-yourself-hardware-upgraders' dream...


And you can left one of the sides visible from the inside...;-)
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

On 1/21/10 6:51 PM, Jonas Ulrich at  wrote:

> Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.

But on the other side Tiger is still quite usable. It is my everyday OS
here, runnning on a non-upgraded Beige G3. By now, the only major softwares
that don' run on Tiger that I "miss" are the newest version of iTunes and
Google Chrome.
 




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Re: [G3-5]Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-02-12 Thread MaGioZal

> =
> So, G-Group: Why are you (still) PowerPC-based Mac users?
> 


Because I would like to buy a brnd-new Intel Mac, but I still have to get
the money to do that. And because with my Tiger-running Beige G3 I can most
of the applications made for Mac OS X and Mac OS classic.

That's it.
 




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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-30 Thread Paul Stamsen

Because:
They're fun, useful, experienced, trustworthy, paid for and functional.
and my wife has the new one.

Paul
-- 
When a person can no longer
laugh at himself, it is time
for others to laugh at him.  -- Thomas Szasz

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-30 Thread James Therrault

On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:34 AM, Ed Grey wrote:

I use an older Mac because:

1) I'm not a gamer
2) I'm not editing video
3) It still does what I want it to do with little trouble
4) There are inexpensive ways to improve its performance if needed
5) I'm not: a trust fund baby, otherwise wealthy, or someone who
prefers having the coolest Mac to having decent food & shelter

I've had a G4 400 MHz Gigabit since early 2000. It is one of two
Macs that I bought new the other being a Mac II in 1987. Both ran
flawlessly. I do have a faster Powerbook 1.25 GHz that I got off of
eBay but I use it just for traveling and one or two net surfings a
day. (It is connected to wireless 3G broadband).

Steps 1 through 5 also apply to me. I used to do a lot of desktop
publishing but no longer as I am retired.

I will confess to playing some mahjong and online free slots on
occasion...

(Who apologizes to the nannies for the nutzero tacked on ad that I
never see)

Small Business Tools
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your
business.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=ch_cZvt6kBL42Bt0TrgMIgAAJ1Hoq79FjCQ74OFkFSWhCpbyAAYAAADNAAARMQA=

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-30 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

$ problems seems to be the underlying reason in the majority of statements
in this thread. Otherwise I suspect most of us would buy new Macs and not
regret the move.

But Bang for Buck is a big advantage of the Gs.

No doubt about that.

But lets get to the real crux of the matter. What other platform is as
satisfying all around?

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-30 Thread JoeTaxpayer

Good timing for this question. Forgive my long-winded answer.

I bought a G4 1.25GHz MDD new, over 7 years ago.
2 years ago, my family insisted on a family room computer, and wanted
a PC. $600, Vista #fail. 'nuff said.
I found my workhorse G4 on ebay for sub $200, and bought it for the
family about a year ago. Plug and play. My wife and daughter hit print
and it prints to my home office printer.
It runs the software to sync TV shows off our TiVos so my daughter can
either watch on her iPod or burn to DVD.
It hosts her iTunes library.
It drives two monitors so I'm looking at 2 24in screens as I type
this.
It runs Leopard like a champ, bringing all the features that came with
10.5.

I. Love. My. G4s.

As others wrote, I'm not a gamer either. I do some video encoding and
that's where you can see the performance hit. But. When I have a video
I want to encode for TV viewing, it may take 4 hours to encode an hour
of video. It's not like a new Mac will do this in under an hour, more
likely 2 or so. So for this single use case, the new machine still
won't help when my wife wants to see a show that not encoded yet.
Either way it takes planning and an earlier or overnight process. I'm
just saying for the one thing a new machine will do better, I'm still
loving my old ones.

The G4 is friendly to upgrades. Maxed out the memory to 2GB. For $10
added a USB 2.0 card. Easy to add Hard Drives as I catch them getting
cheaper and cheaper.

When you look at Performance per dollar, I dare say the G4 MDD Macs
are at the peak of that curve.

I understand, "support" will start to fade over time, but I ask you,
not as a PC user whom you might want to evangelize a Mac to, but as a
happy Leopard user, with now 4 of these G4s around the house, what is
your compelling reason for me to make the switch?

(On the other hand - I drool over the iPad. I plan to buy it as soon
as I can go to the Apple store and wait less than 2 hours on line to
get one.)

Joe

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-30 Thread Ed Grey

I use an older Mac because:

1) I'm not a gamer
2) I'm not editing video
3) It still does what I want it to do with little trouble
4) There are inexpensive ways to improve its performance if needed
5) I'm not: a trust fund baby, otherwise wealthy, or someone who
prefers having the coolest Mac to having decent food & shelter

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-28 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 24, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:



On Jan 24, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Mac User #330250 wrote:



Are there any free Mac games out there that will play nicely on my  
G3 B&W? I'm

running Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger if that matters.


Glider Pro:



A very very classic Mac game.

--
Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are" B. Banzai,  PhD


Thanks for the game, its really fun! :D

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-27 Thread JOHN CARMONNE



On Jan 27, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:



On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mac User #330250 wrote:



GIMP does it for me right now, but if I should have to work more  
with pictures
than I do now (very very seldom!) I will take Photoshop Elements  
2.0 into

consideration.
Thanks for the hint.

This topic is getting very hard to follow, Somebody please kill it:-)
JOHN CARMONNE
Yorba Linda USA
carmo...@aol,com

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-27 Thread Bruce Johnson



On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mac User #330250 wrote:



GIMP does it for me right now, but if I should have to work more  
with pictures
than I do now (very very seldom!) I will take Photoshop Elements 2.0  
into

consideration.
Thanks for the hint.


Try Seashore. Gimp with a native OS X interface, runs a lot faster.
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-27 Thread Kelly Harding

I still use my G4 iBook (1.42Ghz, 1.5Gb RAM, 250Gb hdd) for day to day
usage, email, documents. It can struggle with flash (as others have
noted here), but it just about copes with my needs, with a few
occurances of twiddling my thumbs (it runs Leopard), but as I can't
afford to replace it at present, it has to suffice, and considering
its age I'm pretty pleased with it.

It is pretty much desk bound now though as it has a chassis problem
meaning the battery won't stay in properly. But otherwise works fine.

I also have a Quicksilver 2001 (dual 800mhz, 1.5Gb ram) that runs
Tiger, keep thinking about shoving Leopard on it, but don't know if it
would be worth the effort. I use it less and less since setting up a
Core2Duo PC with Ubuntu, which until it suffered a faulty motherboard
was my every day machine for everything, including games, but that
will be fixed soon.

I complement the iBook with a little Aspire One, so I think thats why
I can live with the shortcomings the iBook is now presenting.

I've also got an old G3 iBook with duff video I was given, I might get
around to trying to find a use for this sometime too.

Eventually I aim to get a MacBook or MacBook Pro, but funds just don't
allow for it at present, but I don't think I'd have a problem with
Intel graphics on one as my usage wouldn't really be intensive enough
to test it in that regard, but i could be wrong.

Kelly

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-27 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mac User #330250 wrote:





--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Kasey Smith 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com


On Jan 23, 2010, at 3:59 AM, Mac User #330250 wrote:

--  Original message  --
I'm also using some 3rd party drivers (kext, kernel extensions):
  ATIcellerator II 1.0.6b
  NTFS-3G 2004.04.04 with MacFUSE
  HPIJS 3.9.2 (updated HP printer drivers for CUPS, by the Linux
Foundation)
  and the Wester Digital external HDD software for My Passport.


Be careful with ATicellerator, i once completely crashed my G3/400
here. (I also run Tiger on mine, and a tip, instead of using GIMP,
grab a copy of Photoshop Elements 2.0, its not free but it has teh
same amount of plugins, if not more, and you can probably find it
cheap nowadays)


Thanks, I've installed ATIcellerator just so I /could/ alter the  
frequencies.

I didn't do that until now.

GIMP does it for me right now, but if I should have to work more  
with pictures
than I do now (very very seldom!) I will take Photoshop Elements  
2.0 into

consideration.
Thanks for the hint.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250


I would like to mention that the reason i have Elements 2.0 is  
because it was at my local thrift store. I only have expereince witht  
he slowness of GIMP. Also, instead of MS Office or OpenOffice i use  
iWork '05 and AppleWorks6 (AppleWorks has no powerpoint  
compatability...)


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-27 Thread littlefeet

I'll tell you why I use a G4 AGP graphics with a 450 processor.
Because I refuse to collude with the destruction of our planet by
dumping a working machine and buying a less reliable replacement I
don;t really need. I also refuse to surrender to Apple's pressure to
constantly update hardware and software they try to force on us by
their simple expediency of withdrawing support for everything not
quite current. If I want to upgrade I can (and do) add memory, an
additional hard drive, an external firewire DVD burner (pre-owned from
ebay), PCI cards etc. I can get used software cheaply online. I can
continue to use OS 9.2 on the original drive with some of the vintage
software I have, with OS X tiger on the newer drive. Recycling could
be our salvation.

I've been using Macs since the SE30 was an innovation. I have an LC
and a Powermac in the attic. They both still work. A 1975 VW beetle
would get me from A to B. Think of my G4 as a VW beetle. Long may it
last




On Jan 21, 8:08 pm, "Mac User #330250"  wrote:
> Hello fellows of the G-Group!
>
> I was just thinking about the future. I've just made an old G3 B&W working
> again (it was wasting space and picking up dust for about two years or more)
> and it is now in my office. I've installed Tiger and it is just okay working
> with it, in other words: it is slow.
>
> Where was I? Ah, thinking about the future...
> Apparently Apple has finally dropped all support for Tiger. That was
> forseeable, it doesn't come as a surprise.
>
> I am wondering: I read so many postings here about people buying or working
> with Power Macs and G3/G4-Laptops. As operating system you're all running Mac
> OS X, some are still on Mac OS (which I call "Classic", because I've joined
> the Mac world two years ago so the term seems fit to me).
>
> But why? (Why Power Macs _and_ why Mac OS X?)
>
> All newer software will be for Mac OS X/Intel very soon. Some of you may be
> using Leopard already, but it is now also just a question of time when it will
> be dropped as well. And this is dropping PowerPC support alltogether.
>
> If Apple does as they always do, Leopard support will be dropped with the
> release of the successor of Snow Leopard. Since Snow Leopard is already 6
> months out, PowerPC users are safe for another two years or so. But that will
> be it. Dead for good. No more. The end.
>
> So why bother with the G3-G5 anyhow?
>
> On the other hand you can all convert to Linux. Linux was and will be running
> on PowerPC for at least another decade (-- my personal opinion). So if Mac OS
> X is now longer an option, you can always go the Linux way. But as I think of
> it, you will all be very unhappy with Linux. Mac OS X is really the best when
> it comes to being user friendly and easy to use for everyone (beginners but
> also experts; and geeks off course).
>
> I'm now in this situation. My G3 B&W runs Tiger. I use it in my office for
> writing documents (Word 2004, OpenOffice.org Writer 3.1.1 and Bean), for
> making spreadsheet calculations (Excel 2004 and OpenOffice.org Calc 3.1.1)
> _and_ for surfing in the world wide web. And the last part is the problem.
> With Tiger no longer being supported the recently discovered security flaws
> are no longer being fixed. Surfing the internet will become more dangerous.
>
> Newer browsers will be (Snow)Leopard-only. Tiger support will be dropped in
> the forseeable future. Using old browsers (with ahellofalot unfixed security
> flaws not yet discovered) will also make the situation worse. (Like running
> Panther and being bound to use Firefox version 2.0, which is not a good idea
> if you ask me.)
>
> So: why bother with Gs?
>
> I've read, I think it was the Geekbench homepage, that the switch to Intel was
> a boost in performance to the Mac world. And I agree. Intel Macs are just...
> well, Macs! It doesn't make a difference if the hardware is PowerPC or Intel
> x86 -- as long as the operating system doesn't show any difference at all --
> which it doesn't. Work on an Intel Mac and you won't notice anything, except
> that it is faster than any Power Mac you've ever used. Period.
>
> To clarify one thing: I'm only having Power Macs standing around at home and
> the one in my office. I got them as presents since they were no longer used in
> the company of a friend. So he thought I could use them still, which I do by
> the way. Just one I bought myself: a Late 2005 G5 with 2.0 GHz Dual-Core. It
> is nice, but really Leopard isn't using all its power (like 64-bit).
>
> _But_ my perspective was always to run Linux on it, just like I did -and do-
> with all my x86-PCs. So for me it was mainly a new experience and to see if I
> could manage a difference hardware architecture with Linux.
>
> I've also entered the world of Mac OS X -- which is a great OS by the way --
> and got stuck with using Tiger daily on my G3 B&W. I love it. Something
> different for a change.
>
> So, G-Group: Why are you (still) PowerPC-based Mac users?
>
> Cheers,
> Andr

Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?




--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Kasey Smith 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> On Jan 23, 2010, at 3:59 AM, Mac User #330250 wrote:
> > --  Original message  --
> > I'm also using some 3rd party drivers (kext, kernel extensions):
> >   ATIcellerator II 1.0.6b
> >   NTFS-3G 2004.04.04 with MacFUSE
> >   HPIJS 3.9.2 (updated HP printer drivers for CUPS, by the Linux
> > Foundation)
> >   and the Wester Digital external HDD software for My Passport.
> 
> Be careful with ATicellerator, i once completely crashed my G3/400
> here. (I also run Tiger on mine, and a tip, instead of using GIMP,
> grab a copy of Photoshop Elements 2.0, its not free but it has teh
> same amount of plugins, if not more, and you can probably find it
> cheap nowadays)

Thanks, I've installed ATIcellerator just so I /could/ alter the frequencies. 
I didn't do that until now.

GIMP does it for me right now, but if I should have to work more with pictures 
than I do now (very very seldom!) I will take Photoshop Elements 2.0 into 
consideration.
Thanks for the hint.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> At 9:46 PM +0100 1/23/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:
> >where do I find the system logs?
> 
> The logs live in a number of places.  Use Console.app to view them.
> That app is a nice reader, with some simple filtering capability.
> And it's read-only, so peruse all you want.
> 
> /Applications/Utilities/Console.app

I put it to sleep with the fans (internal and the one of the power supply) 
still running. There is nothing unusual in the system log.


--  Original message  ------
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> >Do you happen to know if Safari can block Flash with the ability to allow
> > it in a user controlled way?
> 
> ClickToFlash works great in Safari.

Installed. Thanks.

> And I use SafariBlock as a general ad/url blocker.  It's a bit crude
> and buggy, but it's free and open source, so I can fool with the code.

I'm still considering alternatives (MacUpdates has a view in its database).

> >>  You should NOT be experiencing any typeahead delays.

Still having.

> >>  It's possible that Spotlight's indexing is dragging you down.
> >
> >This should be a temporary issue, right?
> 
> Yea, but if you do a lot of file manipulations, Spotlight's indexer
> keeps kicking in.  So it's a re-occuring suck.  Personally, I'm not
> fond of Spotlight, so I've got the indexing disabled on all my
> volumes currently.  (Don't kill Spotlight itself; if you do then many
> apps that require it will crash).

Disabled it using mdutil. Haven't worked much with it since though. Will check 
next week.


Thanks for your help so far.
I may make a clean cut though and install it all once more from scratch. Maybe 
I shouldn't install it all on the G4, and so some installations on the G3 
itself to prevent it being so slow. But for the time being I'm leaving it like 
it is, since I just don't have the time for this right now.


Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Sonntag 24 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> I don't game much.  But in the past, I've enjoyed the ones from
> Ambrosia.  Maelstrom, Chiral, Barrack, Bubble Trouble, Aki (Mah
> Jong), etc.
> 
> Been a while since I perused their site, but as I recall they still
> have their older games available, that run quite well on older
> machines and OSes.
> 
> <http://www.ambrosiasw.com/>
> 
> Also check the game category on MacUpdate.

MacUpdate is something I have to get used to. But I will have this page 
bookmarked and visited regularily.

The Ambrosia games are all >$10, and I won't be spending money due to lack of 
time playing games. But thanks for the hint. If I have the time to play, which 
is very seldom on my G3 B&W, I will try to get free games.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Sonntag 24 Januar 2010N
From:Bruce Johnson 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> Glider Pro:
> 
> <http://homepage.mac.com/calhoun/Glider%20PRO.html>
> 
> A very very classic Mac game.

Thanks. Downloaded but not yet installed. I'll try it out some time.

Cheers,
Andreas.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

> So, G-Group: Why are you (still) PowerPC-based Mac users?

So it all comes down to this:
* they are reliable (most of the times)
* they are now vintage and part of Mac History
* they do the job
* they are cheap

But still some things aren't so pretty:
* at this time only security updates for Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard
* Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger and previous are no longer fixed/patched
* Flash and some other current internet standards don't run well
* slow when compared to Intel-Macs of the recent two years (Geekbench!)


(If you continue reading, please open up and don't get it wrong. I don't want 
to offend anyone in this group. Also I hope I'm choosing the right words for 
this -- as a non-native speaker:)

I know for some of you the decision to go Intel was kind of like treason. 
Apple+Motorola/Freescale+IBM were the good guys, Microsoft+Intel were the bad 
guys. And all would have lived happily ever after if not Steve Jobs (once 
again) moved forward in a very unconventional way: he went on with one of the 
bad guys.


Fact is though, the PowerPC platform is no longer supported nor wanted by 
Apple. The industry has their own view and alot of applications are still 
universal due to customers needs. But to be honest, most modern applications 
need a fast computer and most PowerPC-Macs are not performing as well as the 
task would require.
Only one example is Adobe CS4, which will most propably be the last to run on 
PowerPC-based Macs. And for it to work in a responsive and productive kind of 
way you need at least the fastest Dual-G4 or an even faster Dual-G5. On the 
other side you get at least the same performance out of any Intel-based Mac -- 
every recent model performs better, even the cheap ones.


So, what is left is using these computers for older applications. And there is 
nothing wrong with that if one can live with being and/or becoming "not 
compatible" in the common sense of it. By that I mean, if someone else gives 
you a file to do some work with (i.e. any kind of document file), you may be 
in the situation that you cannot even open it. And of course the other way 
around is also true. (Who can still open and work with, say: WordPerfect files 
nowerdays? And the other way -- can you open an XML-style .docx text document 
with AppleWorks?).



Thus, while I love the design of the Power Macs (I don't have any other kind 
of PowerPC-Mac) and the way they "work", it is an abondoned technology in 
terms of standard software, internet, upcoming applications and so on.

Just imagine that Skype wasn't invented yet. Say it was invented in two years 
from now when Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard is the previous version of the Apple 
OS. Can you see it? Just imagine -- the Skype software would properbly be 
Intel-only and thus support the two actively supported Apple operating systems 
(that always seemed to be common pollicy). With all those customers allready 
using Intel-Macs the Skype-company wouldn't loose so many customers at all and 
it would be unlikely that they ever made an universal version of Skype.

I'm using Skype. I would want to live without it. Off course, if I had never 
used it I wouldn't know what I'm missing.


As I see it -- using Power Macs I will most likely be forced to get any other 
kind of recent system -- running either Windows or Mac OS -- to use for every 
day tasks with standard applications, because of the growing difficulty to get 
these applications for the Power Macs. That is, within the coming years... (2 
yrs? 5 yrs? 10 yrs?)


This is also true for Linux on PowerPC, because Flash doesn't work on it 
either. At least Java 1.6 does due to IBM's pSeries. Surfing the internet and 
not being able to reserve cinema tickets because this d*mn homepage doesn't 
work without Java 1.6 or Flash -- while my wife using Windows Vista can do all 
that easily -- would make me overthink my Power Mac usage...



So my decision is that I will continue using my PowerMacs as primary systems 
until I cannot work with it anymore. This will hopefully be some more years. 
And what that happens, I will know it right away (hopefully).
Ha! Some more years of freedom from every x86-binary malwere and from the 
majority of x86 systems worldwide. And some years of being part of a small 
group that runs a desktop Linux on PowerPC computers. I just love it!



These were just my thought of the PowerPC-Macs, since I've recently discovered 
them and found them to be an abondoned architecture. I should have made the 
step towards them earlier, but then they were too expensive for me at that 
time. PCs have always been cheaper (in every way). Now I'm using Power Macs as 
they are becoming the trailing edge of technology... So's life.


To all who answered to my initial question (see top):   T H A N K  Y O U !
You helped me by deciding and finding what to do with my Macs and how to plan 
future computer spending... (The forbidden word: H*ck*nt*sh- and Linux 
compatible...)


Thank you and
"live long and pros

Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread Chance Reecher

Flash kills pretty much every G4 except the >1ghz dual processor
machines. My media MDD is a dual 1GHz with maxed out RAM, and it just
barely can handle Hulu, and definitely not anything HD. The faster
single G4s can handle YouTube OK though, but only when it's the only
thing using CPU cycles.

I rebuilt a dead iMac G4 800MHz for my 11 year old sister this past
summer, and (running 10.4 w/maxed out RAM) it's slow with everything
but Word and iTunes. I get frequent complaints from her about how
"such and such internet game looks like crap." (And it's wired into my
network too, I stay away from WiFi as much as I can.) I guess I'll
have to upgrade my media MDD to a G5 and give the MDD to her.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Arnel Tuazon  wrote:
> On 26/01/10 7:58 PM, "Chance Reecher"  wrote:

>>
>
> I hear you brother.  I have an upgraded G4 Sawtooth for my daughter (1.6GHz
> CPU, 1.5GB RAM, 802.11 G wifi PCI card) and it was great when it was being
> used for day to day work stuff.  But have it play online kid's flash games
> from Treehouse or Disney and it laaagsss.  I have an Airport Extreme
> base station about 1/2 a meter from it.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
> those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power 
> Macs.
> The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
> guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
> To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
>

-- 
Chance Reecher
765-4609
491-2286
cnrtechh...@gmail.com
AIM: cnrtechhead

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread Arnel Tuazon

On 26/01/10 7:58 PM, "Chance Reecher"  wrote:

> Glad G4s are still cutting it for you. They don't for me anymore.
> Between today's internet (flash), multitasking, gaming, and
> video/graphics work, I need Intel.
> 
> I'm not saying that G4s aren't totally useless though. I have 2 DAs
> running as servers, and an MDD hooked up to a projector for watching
> TV and movies online. I just need the increased speed of Intel for my
> day-to-day computing.
> 

I hear you brother.  I have an upgraded G4 Sawtooth for my daughter (1.6GHz
CPU, 1.5GB RAM, 802.11 G wifi PCI card) and it was great when it was being
used for day to day work stuff.  But have it play online kid's flash games
from Treehouse or Disney and it laaagsss.  I have an Airport Extreme
base station about 1/2 a meter from it. 

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread Chance Reecher

Glad G4s are still cutting it for you. They don't for me anymore.
Between today's internet (flash), multitasking, gaming, and
video/graphics work, I need Intel.

I'm not saying that G4s aren't totally useless though. I have 2 DAs
running as servers, and an MDD hooked up to a projector for watching
TV and movies online. I just need the increased speed of Intel for my
day-to-day computing.

Chance

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:31 PM, PM7500  wrote:
> Besides, the G4's and G5's running Tiger
> and Leopard are still doing what I need them to do.
>

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread PM7500

I'm not buying any Mac with Intel GMA video, which is pretty much all
I can afford at this time. Besides, the G4's and G5's running Tiger
and Leopard are still doing what I need them to do. When they stop
being able to do what I need and the price of an Intel Mac with decent
options and no major reliability issues comes down then I will
consider one.

On Jan 21, 3:08 pm, "Mac User #330250"  wrote:
> Hello fellows of the G-Group!
>
> I was just thinking about the future. I've just made an old G3 B&W working
> again (it was wasting space and picking up dust for about two years or more)
> and it is now in my office. I've installed Tiger and it is just okay working
> with it, in other words: it is slow.
>
> Where was I? Ah, thinking about the future...
> Apparently Apple has finally dropped all support for Tiger. That was
> forseeable, it doesn't come as a surprise.
>
> I am wondering: I read so many postings here about people buying or working
> with Power Macs and G3/G4-Laptops. As operating system you're all running Mac
> OS X, some are still on Mac OS (which I call "Classic", because I've joined
> the Mac world two years ago so the term seems fit to me).
>
> But why? (Why Power Macs _and_ why Mac OS X?)
>
> All newer software will be for Mac OS X/Intel very soon. Some of you may be
> using Leopard already, but it is now also just a question of time when it will
> be dropped as well. And this is dropping PowerPC support alltogether.
>
> If Apple does as they always do, Leopard support will be dropped with the
> release of the successor of Snow Leopard. Since Snow Leopard is already 6
> months out, PowerPC users are safe for another two years or so. But that will
> be it. Dead for good. No more. The end.
>
> So why bother with the G3-G5 anyhow?
>
> On the other hand you can all convert to Linux. Linux was and will be running
> on PowerPC for at least another decade (-- my personal opinion). So if Mac OS
> X is now longer an option, you can always go the Linux way. But as I think of
> it, you will all be very unhappy with Linux. Mac OS X is really the best when
> it comes to being user friendly and easy to use for everyone (beginners but
> also experts; and geeks off course).
>
> I'm now in this situation. My G3 B&W runs Tiger. I use it in my office for
> writing documents (Word 2004, OpenOffice.org Writer 3.1.1 and Bean), for
> making spreadsheet calculations (Excel 2004 and OpenOffice.org Calc 3.1.1)
> _and_ for surfing in the world wide web. And the last part is the problem.
> With Tiger no longer being supported the recently discovered security flaws
> are no longer being fixed. Surfing the internet will become more dangerous.
>
> Newer browsers will be (Snow)Leopard-only. Tiger support will be dropped in
> the forseeable future. Using old browsers (with ahellofalot unfixed security
> flaws not yet discovered) will also make the situation worse. (Like running
> Panther and being bound to use Firefox version 2.0, which is not a good idea
> if you ask me.)
>
> So: why bother with Gs?
>
> I've read, I think it was the Geekbench homepage, that the switch to Intel was
> a boost in performance to the Mac world. And I agree. Intel Macs are just...
> well, Macs! It doesn't make a difference if the hardware is PowerPC or Intel
> x86 -- as long as the operating system doesn't show any difference at all --
> which it doesn't. Work on an Intel Mac and you won't notice anything, except
> that it is faster than any Power Mac you've ever used. Period.
>
> To clarify one thing: I'm only having Power Macs standing around at home and
> the one in my office. I got them as presents since they were no longer used in
> the company of a friend. So he thought I could use them still, which I do by
> the way. Just one I bought myself: a Late 2005 G5 with 2.0 GHz Dual-Core. It
> is nice, but really Leopard isn't using all its power (like 64-bit).
>
> _But_ my perspective was always to run Linux on it, just like I did -and do-
> with all my x86-PCs. So for me it was mainly a new experience and to see if I
> could manage a difference hardware architecture with Linux.
>
> I've also entered the world of Mac OS X -- which is a great OS by the way --
> and got stuck with using Tiger daily on my G3 B&W. I love it. Something
> different for a change.
>
> So, G-Group: Why are you (still) PowerPC-based Mac users?
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250 (and: Linux User #330250, Windows User #330250)

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 26, 2010, at 4:26 AM, coolr...@comcast.net wrote:

It's a iMac G5. There's a hack to allow the video port to support  
extended desktop mode and not just be mirrored. The hack works with  
Leopard, Tiger and Classic.


It can be found here: http://rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Rick

On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Kasey Smith wrote:



On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:05 PM, coolr...@comcast.net wrote:

The only Mac I ever had that was cutting edge was a 512K that I  
bought new. I've always been behind the times but they're still  
powerful machines and get the job done. Heck yeah I'd like to  
have a new Mac but what can it do that I can't do already? Or  
need to to do?


I have a small network at home. A G5 iMac for web, email, etc., a  
B&W that's tricked up (1GHz accelerator, max RAM, SCSI card,  
extra hard drives, etc.) for Pro Tools and a 450MHz G3 iMac that  
I bought at a yard sale for $10 that I use as a print server.  
They all run Tiger though I have a Leopard partition on the G5  
and can boot the B&W into Tiger or OS9 depending on my needs.  
Both the G5 and the B&W run two displays. I also have a totally  
maxed out IIci that would have cost $25K in 1990 that I use as a  
MIDI controller for an old version of Performer for some vintage  
MIDI files that I have. The IIci runs System 7.1 and has a Nubus  
(remember that?) Ethernet card and is connected to the network so  
I can back it up. I have $70 in the IIci.


I know someday I'll have to upgrade to Intel just as I had to  
upgrade from OS9 a few years ago but for now everything is  
working. As Bruce quoted the old axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't  
fix it."


r


Lol, i thoink you mean PowerMac G5, not iMac. The only iMac to  
ever have an expansion slot were the very  first (Rev.A) tray-load  
iMacs. Also, i run dual displays on my G3 B&W too, with an extra  
rage 128.


Blargh, for some reason it made me think that he put in another video  
card. I knew about the hack but i spaced the fact that the imac now  
has a video connector that can do more than mirroring. (My newest  
iMac is the Summer 2 Indigo iMac DV


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-26 Thread coolrays

It's a iMac G5. There's a hack to allow the video port to support  
extended desktop mode and not just be mirrored. The hack works with  
Leopard, Tiger and Classic.


It can be found here: http://rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Rick

On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Kasey Smith wrote:



On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:05 PM, coolr...@comcast.net wrote:

The only Mac I ever had that was cutting edge was a 512K that I  
bought new. I've always been behind the times but they're still  
powerful machines and get the job done. Heck yeah I'd like to have  
a new Mac but what can it do that I can't do already? Or need to  
to do?


I have a small network at home. A G5 iMac for web, email, etc., a  
B&W that's tricked up (1GHz accelerator, max RAM, SCSI card, extra  
hard drives, etc.) for Pro Tools and a 450MHz G3 iMac that I  
bought at a yard sale for $10 that I use as a print server. They  
all run Tiger though I have a Leopard partition on the G5 and can  
boot the B&W into Tiger or OS9 depending on my needs. Both the G5  
and the B&W run two displays. I also have a totally maxed out IIci  
that would have cost $25K in 1990 that I use as a MIDI controller  
for an old version of Performer for some vintage MIDI files that I  
have. The IIci runs System 7.1 and has a Nubus (remember that?)  
Ethernet card and is connected to the network so I can back it up.  
I have $70 in the IIci.


I know someday I'll have to upgrade to Intel just as I had to  
upgrade from OS9 a few years ago but for now everything is  
working. As Bruce quoted the old axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't  
fix it."


r


Lol, i thoink you mean PowerMac G5, not iMac. The only iMac to ever  
have an expansion slot were the very  first (Rev.A) tray-load  
iMacs. Also, i run dual displays on my G3 B&W too, with an extra  
rage 128.


--
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particular focus on Power Macs.
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group/g3-5-list


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-25 Thread Michael G.M.

I've found a very good discussion on Macs @ /.
http://tinyurl.com/yf98yp6

Cheers, :)
Mike

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-25 Thread PM7500

I'm still using PPC Macs because the only Intel based ones I can
afford are pathetic. There isn't a worthy replacement for my hi res
Powerbook G4 that doesn't have major faults until you get to the
nVidia 9400/9600 graphics models. I will not buy any Mac with Intel
graphics or where the video chip gets glitchy (X1600) or burns up over
time (8600M GT).

On Jan 21, 3:08 pm, "Mac User #330250"  wrote:
> Hello fellows of the G-Group!
>
> I was just thinking about the future. I've just made an old G3 B&W working
> again (it was wasting space and picking up dust for about two years or more)
> and it is now in my office. I've installed Tiger and it is just okay working
> with it, in other words: it is slow.
>
> Where was I? Ah, thinking about the future...
> Apparently Apple has finally dropped all support for Tiger. That was
> forseeable, it doesn't come as a surprise.
>
> I am wondering: I read so many postings here about people buying or working
> with Power Macs and G3/G4-Laptops. As operating system you're all running Mac
> OS X, some are still on Mac OS (which I call "Classic", because I've joined
> the Mac world two years ago so the term seems fit to me).
>
> But why? (Why Power Macs _and_ why Mac OS X?)
>
> All newer software will be for Mac OS X/Intel very soon. Some of you may be
> using Leopard already, but it is now also just a question of time when it will
> be dropped as well. And this is dropping PowerPC support alltogether.
>
> If Apple does as they always do, Leopard support will be dropped with the
> release of the successor of Snow Leopard. Since Snow Leopard is already 6
> months out, PowerPC users are safe for another two years or so. But that will
> be it. Dead for good. No more. The end.
>
> So why bother with the G3-G5 anyhow?
>
> On the other hand you can all convert to Linux. Linux was and will be running
> on PowerPC for at least another decade (-- my personal opinion). So if Mac OS
> X is now longer an option, you can always go the Linux way. But as I think of
> it, you will all be very unhappy with Linux. Mac OS X is really the best when
> it comes to being user friendly and easy to use for everyone (beginners but
> also experts; and geeks off course).
>
> I'm now in this situation. My G3 B&W runs Tiger. I use it in my office for
> writing documents (Word 2004, OpenOffice.org Writer 3.1.1 and Bean), for
> making spreadsheet calculations (Excel 2004 and OpenOffice.org Calc 3.1.1)
> _and_ for surfing in the world wide web. And the last part is the problem.
> With Tiger no longer being supported the recently discovered security flaws
> are no longer being fixed. Surfing the internet will become more dangerous.
>
> Newer browsers will be (Snow)Leopard-only. Tiger support will be dropped in
> the forseeable future. Using old browsers (with ahellofalot unfixed security
> flaws not yet discovered) will also make the situation worse. (Like running
> Panther and being bound to use Firefox version 2.0, which is not a good idea
> if you ask me.)
>
> So: why bother with Gs?
>
> I've read, I think it was the Geekbench homepage, that the switch to Intel was
> a boost in performance to the Mac world. And I agree. Intel Macs are just...
> well, Macs! It doesn't make a difference if the hardware is PowerPC or Intel
> x86 -- as long as the operating system doesn't show any difference at all --
> which it doesn't. Work on an Intel Mac and you won't notice anything, except
> that it is faster than any Power Mac you've ever used. Period.
>
> To clarify one thing: I'm only having Power Macs standing around at home and
> the one in my office. I got them as presents since they were no longer used in
> the company of a friend. So he thought I could use them still, which I do by
> the way. Just one I bought myself: a Late 2005 G5 with 2.0 GHz Dual-Core. It
> is nice, but really Leopard isn't using all its power (like 64-bit).
>
> _But_ my perspective was always to run Linux on it, just like I did -and do-
> with all my x86-PCs. So for me it was mainly a new experience and to see if I
> could manage a difference hardware architecture with Linux.
>
> I've also entered the world of Mac OS X -- which is a great OS by the way --
> and got stuck with using Tiger daily on my G3 B&W. I love it. Something
> different for a change.
>
> So, G-Group: Why are you (still) PowerPC-based Mac users?
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250 (and: Linux User #330250, Windows User #330250)

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-25 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:05 PM, coolr...@comcast.net wrote:

The only Mac I ever had that was cutting edge was a 512K that I  
bought new. I've always been behind the times but they're still  
powerful machines and get the job done. Heck yeah I'd like to have  
a new Mac but what can it do that I can't do already? Or need to to  
do?


I have a small network at home. A G5 iMac for web, email, etc., a  
B&W that's tricked up (1GHz accelerator, max RAM, SCSI card, extra  
hard drives, etc.) for Pro Tools and a 450MHz G3 iMac that I bought  
at a yard sale for $10 that I use as a print server. They all run  
Tiger though I have a Leopard partition on the G5 and can boot the  
B&W into Tiger or OS9 depending on my needs. Both the G5 and the  
B&W run two displays. I also have a totally maxed out IIci that  
would have cost $25K in 1990 that I use as a MIDI controller for an  
old version of Performer for some vintage MIDI files that I have.  
The IIci runs System 7.1 and has a Nubus (remember that?) Ethernet  
card and is connected to the network so I can back it up. I have  
$70 in the IIci.


I know someday I'll have to upgrade to Intel just as I had to  
upgrade from OS9 a few years ago but for now everything is working.  
As Bruce quoted the old axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."


r


Lol, i thoink you mean PowerMac G5, not iMac. The only iMac to ever  
have an expansion slot were the very  first (Rev.A) tray-load iMacs.  
Also, i run dual displays on my G3 B&W too, with an extra rage 128.


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Michael G.M.

Ah, the iMac. I remember the time I was disassembling one, and upon
struggling to pull the belly plate off (It must have been jammed) It
popped off and I punched myself in the nose! I was in pain for a month
or more.

I've been wondering what will be the next 'Pro' case too. It is
getting quite old/stale.

As for games, I wouldn't invest anything in Mac games, unless you can
get them for next to nothing, play web games, Free ones, or ebay
cheepies. The PS2 is a way better investment, as it plays new games
and all the older ones. Although I invested in Mac games, in
retrospect, I should have gotten a PS2. I have a GC though! MYST was
interesting, but it finally put me to sleep. I like the TRs. Angel of
Darkness was the best Mac OS X PPC game, imo. I hardly have the time
to drain my brain on games much anymore though.

Anyway, I still use Mac OS 9, 10.3, 10.5, and 10.4, and I'm in the
process of getting ready to install YDL 6.2 on a G4 400 AGP! I think I
still like 10.3 the best and it's support was way too short for such a
capable OS X. G4's are totally fun and pretty easy to upgrade. I still
wanted a G5 only untill recently. I'm probably going to make the leap
after 10.5 support is done (To what I don't know yet, for sure) likely
a mini, or I'm thinking in a couple years there may (finally) be some
actual options and something with some actual expandability, besides
one  FW 800 port and monitor/LCD TV options on the mini. I think Apple
needs to move on to other models besides the more than a decade old
iMac and limited mini. Blu-Ray player would be nice too!

-Mike

On Jan 24, 10:55 am, Dan  wrote:
> I thought it was funny to see how the other companies jumped on
> copying the iMac.
>
> Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But I
> really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very cool.
> sigh.  Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good industrial
> design should, IMO, include easy-open / access features.  Yea, I know
> - Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze - 90% of the bench time
> should NOT be taken up by just opening and closing a machine!
>
> The Power Mac G5 / Mac Pro box... love it.  But it's a bit stale now,
> so I've been wondering where Apple will go with it.
>
> - Dan.
> --
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Gorka Martinez Mezo

> Every B&W G3 and G4 was a breeze to work on, except for the nasty  
> sharp bits pulling the optical drive cable and after a while you  
> develop sufficient scar tissue across your knuckles that you don't  
> notice.

Having work in both the beige G3 desktop and G4 GE, as well as inside many 
generic PC boxes, the Macs are much easier to work with.

The same for the Performa 630 series, although more disassembly in needed. My 
similar vintage Siemens-Nixdorf 486/100 desktop is much easier to work with, 
altough the case in much higher. And has lots of slots.

Gorka from Spain

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Bruce Johnson



On Jan 24, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Dan wrote:

Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But  
I really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very  
cool. sigh. Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good industrial  
design should, IMO, include easy-open / access features.  Yea, I  
know - Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze - 90% of the bench time  
should NOT be taken up by just opening and closing a machine!


Only iMacs, really, and then just some, the G4 iMac in particular. The  
G5 iMac was remarkably easy to get into. If only we didn't have to on  
such a regular basis...it's as if they knew that one was going to be  
the problem child.


But then I still have my 11" long torx screwdriver and case cracker in  
the toolbox. :-)


Every B&W G3 and G4 was a breeze to work on, except for the nasty  
sharp bits pulling the optical drive cable and after a while you  
develop sufficient scar tissue across your knuckles that you don't  
notice.


Of the earlier PowerPC macs only the tower models were a PITA, the  
desktops were easy to work on; and the PC's of the same era were just  
as bad, if not worse. There has been more than one old Dell design  
that I've been unable to figure out how to even open the case without  
resorting to research.  I swear, sometimes that Dell employed the guy  
who designed this  .


:-)

IMO the worst single design decision Apple ever made (after the puck  
mouse, which is an entire 'sucky design decision' magnitude greater)  
was the placement of the power switch on the Centris 610. 


Back in the bad old days, when there were only three Macs in the  
entire college, in one prof's lab, mac newbies would constantly  
complain to me that every time they tried to eject a disk the computer  
shut down :-)


--
Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are" B. Banzai,  PhD

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Bruce Johnson



On Jan 24, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Mac User #330250 wrote:



Are there any free Mac games out there that will play nicely on my  
G3 B&W? I'm

running Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger if that matters.


Glider Pro:



A very very classic Mac game.

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"Wherever you go, there you are" B. Banzai,  PhD

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 24, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Dan wrote:


At 3:16 AM -0500 1/24/2010, Miguel Garcia Gell wrote:
Every body talk about what's is inside of a PPC's family  
BUT!...What about OUTSIDE?...I'm a industrial designer and let me  
tell you... Apple's Power PC are the most beautiful, equilibrating  
and gorgeous design of this century... PLUS all the good's and bad  
stuff of you can say...FOR ME, this classics are like a necessary  
furniture at home(I have 3PPC already from iMac,Digital A. to  
MDD800). Thank you Steve Job and he's TEAM...they are artist!!!


I thought it was funny to see how the other companies jumped on  
copying the iMac.


Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But  
I really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very  
cool. sigh.  Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good  
industrial design should, IMO, include easy-open / access  
features.  Yea, I know - Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze -  
90% of the bench time should NOT be taken up by just opening and  
closing a machine!


The Power Mac G5 / Mac Pro box... love it.  But it's a bit stale  
now, so I've been wondering where Apple will go with it.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.


err, for the easy opening

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 24, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Dan wrote:


At 3:16 AM -0500 1/24/2010, Miguel Garcia Gell wrote:
Every body talk about what's is inside of a PPC's family  
BUT!...What about OUTSIDE?...I'm a industrial designer and let me  
tell you... Apple's Power PC are the most beautiful, equilibrating  
and gorgeous design of this century... PLUS all the good's and bad  
stuff of you can say...FOR ME, this classics are like a necessary  
furniture at home(I have 3PPC already from iMac,Digital A. to  
MDD800). Thank you Steve Job and he's TEAM...they are artist!!!


I thought it was funny to see how the other companies jumped on  
copying the iMac.


Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But  
I really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very  
cool. sigh.  Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good  
industrial design should, IMO, include easy-open / access  
features.  Yea, I know - Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze -  
90% of the bench time should NOT be taken up by just opening and  
closing a machine!


The Power Mac G5 / Mac Pro box... love it.  But it's a bit stale  
now, so I've been wondering where Apple will go with it.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.


It's called the Slot-Loading iMacs ;)

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Dan


At 8:05 AM +0100 1/24/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:


What games are you playing?


I don't game much.  But in the past, I've enjoyed the ones from 
Ambrosia.  Maelstrom, Chiral, Barrack, Bubble Trouble, Aki (Mah 
Jong), etc.


Been a while since I perused their site, but as I recall they still 
have their older games available, that run quite well on older 
machines and OSes.




Also check the game category on MacUpdate.

- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Dan


At 3:16 AM -0500 1/24/2010, Miguel Garcia Gell wrote:
Every body talk about what's is inside of a PPC's family BUT!...What 
about OUTSIDE?...I'm a industrial designer and let me tell you... 
Apple's Power PC are the most beautiful, equilibrating and gorgeous 
design of this century... PLUS all the good's and bad stuff of you 
can say...FOR ME, this classics are like a necessary furniture at 
home(I have 3PPC already from iMac,Digital A. to MDD800). Thank you 
Steve Job and he's TEAM...they are artist!!!


I thought it was funny to see how the other companies jumped on 
copying the iMac.


Not crazy about the iMac G4 design (too many with limp necks).  But I 
really like the rest of the iMac designs over the years.  Very cool. 
sigh.  Now if only they were easier to repair.  Good industrial 
design should, IMO, include easy-open / access features.  Yea, I know 
- Jobs is anti-user upgrade.  But geeze - 90% of the bench time 
should NOT be taken up by just opening and closing a machine!


The Power Mac G5 / Mac Pro box... love it.  But it's a bit stale now, 
so I've been wondering where Apple will go with it.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Miguel Garcia Gell wrote:

> *Every body talk about what's is inside of a PPC's family BUT!...What
> about OUTSIDE?...I'm a industrial designer and let me tell you... Apple's
> Power PC are the most beautiful, equilibrating and gorgeous design of this
> century... PLUS all the good's and bad stuff of you can say...FOR ME, this
> classics are like a necessary furniture at home(I have 3PPC already from
> iMac,Digital A. to MDD800). Thank you Steve Job and he's TEAM...they are
> artist!!!*
>
>  __


But Miguel !  Do you LIKE them ?  ;-)



-- 
Adrian D'Alessio aka; Fluxstringer

  fluxstrin...@gmail.com
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-24 Thread Stephen Conrad

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Mac User #330250 wrote:

> --  Original message  --
> Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
> Date:Sonntag 24 Januar 2010N
> From:Stephen Conrad 
> To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
>
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:23 PM, captarne  >wrote:
> > > Well I use them mostly as a hobby, I just was given a pre imac all in
> > > one G3 266 and it works great! I can put all my old OS 9 games on it
> > > Arne
> >
> > I mainly use my 8600/200 as storage but every once in a blue moon I play
> a
> > game on it.
> > My Smurf sees the same usage (I really gotta get my iTunes stuff off of
> it)
> > My only other PMs (5400/180 and 5260/100) both have issues I have yet to
> > fix. Neither seems to want to show me anything (on one the message says
> it
> > cannot find a boot volume and the other has some problem I cannot
> recall).
> > If I get them working they'll be for games most likely
>
> What games are you playing?
>

Right now? I play two on Tagged.com (Mafia Wars and Sorority Wars) and two
on Facebook (Vampire Wars and Zombie Wars). I also play games on Pogo.com
(mostly Word Whomp!). But these I play using my Quicksilver.
When the older ones were being used I played Tetris, Despaire, Solitaire,
etc.
I have some on my older machines (SE FDHD, SE, Plus, IIsi, IIci) but they
are not being used right now.
I also play games on my ][e and //c

>
> Due to my background I don't have even one single Mac game. I have a dozen
> DOS
> games though, and I was wondering if I could play one of those on my "new"
> G4
> B&W with 350 MHz.
> So I installed DOSBox and launched my favorite game Ultima Underworld, but
> it
> is unplayable on the G3 B&W due to its performace. Works well on the
> Quicksilver and on the G5.
>
> So I'm wondering: I _really don't_ wont to inverst any more money on this.
> I
> already did too much for what I do with my older Macs.
>
> Are there any free Mac games out there that will play nicely on my G3 B&W?
> I'm
> running Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger if that matters.
>
> There are several Mac FTP sites out there.
Find any FTP program or do a Google search for Mac FTP sites



-- 
Steve Conrad
Henrietta, MO 64036

"The time has come for mankind to grow up and leave its cradle behind; to go
forth and claim our place in outer space."
  - Capt. Henry Gloval


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Help Bunny Take Over The World!

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Sonntag 24 Januar 2010N
From:Stephen Conrad 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:23 PM, captarne wrote:
> > Well I use them mostly as a hobby, I just was given a pre imac all in
> > one G3 266 and it works great! I can put all my old OS 9 games on it
> > Arne
> 
> I mainly use my 8600/200 as storage but every once in a blue moon I play a
> game on it.
> My Smurf sees the same usage (I really gotta get my iTunes stuff off of it)
> My only other PMs (5400/180 and 5260/100) both have issues I have yet to
> fix. Neither seems to want to show me anything (on one the message says it
> cannot find a boot volume and the other has some problem I cannot recall).
> If I get them working they'll be for games most likely

What games are you playing?

Due to my background I don't have even one single Mac game. I have a dozen DOS 
games though, and I was wondering if I could play one of those on my "new" G4 
B&W with 350 MHz.
So I installed DOSBox and launched my favorite game Ultima Underworld, but it 
is unplayable on the G3 B&W due to its performace. Works well on the 
Quicksilver and on the G5.

So I'm wondering: I _really don't_ wont to inverst any more money on this. I 
already did too much for what I do with my older Macs.

Are there any free Mac games out there that will play nicely on my G3 B&W? I'm 
running Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger if that matters.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:kimtoufectis 
To:  "G-Group" 

> This questions has plainly drawn a great deal of interest and
> discussion...I commented once already, but looking over more recent
> posts here's another reason:  the G4 "lamp base" iMac is one of the
> really elegant designs for a desktop computer, astonishing when
> introduced and still remarkable in its elegance.  I liken it to the
> Philco tube television of another generation...

How true... Some of these older Macs are just beautifully designed. I've been 
thinking about getting a Cube myself lately, but they are too expensive to me 
for what they deliver in performance. And then I think about it -- that I 
don't really need it -- so I don't buy one.

I've still got the G3 B&W which I like a lot so my needs are fulfilled.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?Winblowz connection

2010-01-23 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

Every Winter we see one or more topics like this make 100 or more posts.

Luckily this one is on topic and there is no Nanny whiplash or shutdown
needed.

Best of all everyone is in a comfort zone.


Way ta go Listers !

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Stephen Conrad

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:23 PM, captarne wrote:

> Well I use them mostly as a hobby, I just was given a pre imac all in
> one G3 266 and it works great! I can put all my old OS 9 games on it
> Arne
>
>
I mainly use my 8600/200 as storage but every once in a blue moon I play a
game on it.
My Smurf sees the same usage (I really gotta get my iTunes stuff off of it)
My only other PMs (5400/180 and 5260/100) both have issues I have yet to
fix. Neither seems to want to show me anything (on one the message says it
cannot find a boot volume and the other has some problem I cannot recall).
If I get them working they'll be for games most likely


-- 
Steve Conrad
Henrietta, MO 64036

"The time has come for mankind to grow up and leave its cradle behind; to go
forth and claim our place in outer space."
  - Capt. Henry Gloval


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Help Bunny Take Over The World!

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread captarne

Well I use them mostly as a hobby, I just was given a pre imac all in
one G3 266 and it works great! I can put all my old OS 9 games on it
Arne

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> At 11:59 AM +0100 1/23/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:
> >  > Why?  What did you do to it?  My 300-MHz Smurf handles files just as
> >>
> >>  fast as my 1.5 GHz PB G4, and my housemate's x GHz AMD Windoze
> >>  machine.  Safari displays pages almost as fast as they do too.  Iffa
> >>  your Smurf is slow, then you messed something up.
> >
> >Might well be. I installed Tiger using my G4. I did all the updates and
> >installed everything System Update was offering
> 
> Do you use Dashboard?  If not, disable it (with OnyX). It's chewing
> up 40 MB real memory.

Yes, Dashboard is disabled. I don't use it so I have it disabled on all my 
Macs (except the G5 -- it really doesn't matter there).

> Check to see how much cpu time Spotlight's indexing is chewing (md*
> processes).  You may find your system is much more responsive if you
> disable the indexing.  (Search this LEM list for the details of using
> the mdutil commands to do it).

I'll do so as soon as I'm in the office again next week. Thanks for the hint.

> >(including iTunes 9.0.2).
> 
> iTunes performance is pretty much a total embarrassment to Apple.
> That being said, while 9 is required to talk to much of the iTunes
> Store now, the offical version for G3 systems is 8.2.1.

I knew that iTunes 9 is no longer officially for the G3s, but I didn't care at 
the time of installation as I thought I'll not be using it much anyway. I 
prefer much slimmer applications for listening to music, but the real reason 
is that in the office it is not really possible for me to have music on 
anyway.

> >GIMP 2.6.6
> 
> GIMP is nice.  I prefer GraphicConverter 5.9.5 on the Smurf.

I'll check it out. But I'm guessing that GraphicConverter isn't free... I 
won't be buying additional software. I'm using graphics software so rarely 
that it wouldn't be worth the investment.

> >OpenOffice.org 3.1.1
> 
> Slow on any sub-GHz system.  AppleWorks kicks its butt.

All my documents are OpenDocument now. Besides OpenOffice I don't know which 
other applications truely supports this. I'm willing to wait for the 
application to start just to get compatible documents. The same is true for 
Microsoft Office:Mac 2004 -- which is by the way the only software I bought 
(second hand) for the Mac.

> >Stuffit Expander 13.0.3
> 
> Known to clobber Finder's performance, and cause so many other
> problems...  StuffIt is pretty much crapware these days.  Make it go
> away.

Thanks. But how? Do I just drag it to the pin?

> >Carbon Copy Cloner 3.2.1
> 
> Update this.

I thought it was the newest version. I'll check.

> >Adobe Reader 9.2 (I yet have to update to 9.3!)
> 
> If you don't need Reader for something specific, use Preview instead.
> Reader is typical Adobe crapware - it's full of security holes etc.

I read somewhere that Preview is using xpdf code, which has security issues 
for its own too. (Meaning that some issues affect xpdf only, while others 
affect Acrobat only.)

Anyway, Preview is slimmer, true. I'm having Adobe Reader installed for 
compatibility reasons though. I sometimes have to work with PDFs, including 
PDF forms and I'm not sure wether Preview supports it all.

> >Burn 2.3 (the G3 build)
> 
> Nice build of ffmpeg therein; I use it often (t'was easier than
> building my own copy).  But then I use Sizzle to create the DVD
> itself - much better control etc.

I'll check out Sizzle. I've Burn only for this one time when I really need to 
burn an optical media (propably a CD)...

> ...Performance tip:  Transcoding is very cpu intensive, which can
> really slow your system's response time.  So I get the process going,
> then renice it to +10.  This essentially lowers its priority, so the
> system will kick it to the curb faster when I start using the Mac for
> other things.  When I walk away from my Mac, I'm careful to sleep the
> display or at least put the mouse in the "screen saver off" corner.
> I'd rather the cpu time was given to ffmpeg or Sizzle than the screen
> saver.
>sudo renice +10 pid

I'll keep that in mind, but it's not applicable to me. I always shut my B&W 
down completely.

I noticed that when putting it to sleep, part of the fans keep working (the 
power supply?) and this is a no-go situation. I don't know if the power supply 
is original or not. (You remember I got this G3 B&W as a present and it was 
not working at all at first, so I'm happy with it anyway.)

>

Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Arnel Tuazon

It's was the same when people asked, "Why don't you just throw away that
IIsi?"  The IIsi can still run MS Word 4, boots up quicker than any PPC and
Intel Mac I know of and if you can still find a use for the thing then it
ain't dead.  Surfing the web with it is tricky, but it was my main computer
up until 1999 when I bought a B&W.  I use it with my special needs students
running old edu software that is simple and way better (IMO) than what's
currently out there for the newer systems.  Also with 64MB, playing Marathon
is still a hoot.

As for the G's, as stated above and others have mentioned they are not dead
until people can't find any use for them.  With all these newer versions of
the same apps, what other bells and whistles do you need to write a letter
or a novel or make a card?  E-mail is still text based and never needed any
fancy graphics (although Jobs would like you to think otherwise).  JPEG's
and Gif's and PNGs can still be viewed by older PPC's.  I can still view
most web sites (unless they're frickin' IE specific! DAMN Winbloze IT at
work) and "surfing the internet will become more dangerous"?  For PPC
Macs?  Since when? 

Anyway if you want your B&W to run faster simply upgrade the processor (o/c
it if you want to 600 max.) and max out the RAM.  Mine runs Tiger quite
efficiently and it's used more for entertainment and storage.
 


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread mlitwin3797

The used Apples I bought had the classic programs taken off. I tried to 
add them again but couldn't . They only worked partially. Apple works was 
great though when it worked.

--
From: "Lawrence David Eden" 
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:37 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

For me, the answer is simple:  My G4 PPC works perfectly and runs the 
software that I need at an acceptable speed.  An added advantage is that 
my G4 can still boot into OS 9 when needed and I can connect my old SCSI 
hard drives easily too.

I have several friends that insist on buying "the latest and the greatest" 
from Apple or various software vendors.  I, on the other hand, am happy 
with what I have.  My only complaint with my G4 is that it is a little 
"jerky" when I watch videos on the internet...voice and video are a little 
out of sync.

My wife has a G5 iMac, and I have an Intel based laptop that one of my 
schools issued meboth are very fast and very slickbut neither Mac 
makes me envious.  So, in short, I will upgrade when I have to but 
probably not before.

Larry

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Da'Birdman

On Jan 22, 2:46 pm, "Mac User #330250"  wrote:
> --  Original message  --
> Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
> Date:    Freitag 22 Januar 2010N
> From:    "Da'Birdman" 
> To:      "G-Group" 
>
> > I've seen a lot of good, well thought-out replies on this: "They work
> > well for my needs," "It's what I can afford," or even, perhaps,
> > "They're fun to upgrade and play with." (Obviously, I'm paraphrasing
> > here.)  But, no one has asked the obvious question, "Why would anyone
> > join a group dedicated to Power PC G machines and ask why you are
> > still using them?"  Duh!  If you didn't have a reason, wouldn't you
> > just move on to a Mac Mini (I own two, but still love my Power PC's)
> > or an iMac and leave this group?  I'm not trying to flame on here, but
> > I just think it's odd that a G-List member would question the reasons
> > for owning and working on the very kinds of machines the list is
> > dedicated to.  I mean, I wonder why there are people still working
> > with System 6, but obviously they have their own reasons.  I wouldn't
> > join the group and then question why they are doing it.  It just seems
> > a bit odd to me.  Does it seem strange to anyone else?
>
> Would it have made sense to ask this question in another group?
> Would, for example, the Intel-Group have answers to such a question?

Perhaps so, but apparently nobody else thought that this was odd other
than me, so I'm guessing this was the right place to pose your
questions.

> To explain myself:
> 1) I am not a native speaker, so the language barrier may be an issue.

I don't think so.  Your English is better than a lot of Americans! :-)

> 2) I started using Macs of any kind about two years ago. So my knowledge of
> Macs is very new to me, but "old" (in lack of a better word I cannot cum up
> with right now) to others.
>
> 3) I recently got some older Power Macs, got infected by their design and them
> being different, e.g. NOT Windows and NOT Intel.

You're beginning to answer your own questions, then!

> 4) I come from a Linux background. Updates come regularly and Linux can be
> used on old machines as well as on new machines. But the point is, as long as
> you go with supported distros and supported open source software projects,
> you'll always recieve updates and security fixes.

But no Linux distros come from the manufacturer of the hardware.
Apple has a financial incentive to move people up to new hardware.
The Linux distros don't.

> 5) I've just finished installing Mac OS X and I'm working with it a little bit
> now. I like Mac OS X and in my oppinion starting with Mac OS X 10.3 Panther it
> is really a great and reliably operating system.

I think Tiger is the ultimate OS for Power PC G Machines, but it does
love ram.  Is your Blue & White maxed out at 1024 megs of ram?  It
makes a noticeable difference in performance, and even though it is
not intuitive, I find Tiger performs noticeably faster than Panther.

> 6) Now I'm looking at it -- with the Linux background -- and come to see that
> Panther really isn't safe anymore. And that is not the worst. If I use
> Panther, I cannot use a lot of free software that I would like to use (like
> Firefox, VLC, OpenOffice, and so on). What good is an operating system without
> applications?

That's like buying the "I'm a PC (and I'm cheap!)" But, of course,
then you have to buy a bunch of programs to run on your new, stripped
PC.  These would have been included in the more expensive Mac.
Where's the value now?  As for as the inability to run the free
software on the older G Machines, I think you just have to bite the
bullet and go with Tiger and load the computers up with lots o' ram.

> 7) A lot of people replied that they are using old software that runs quite
> happily on their Power Macs (and not at all on Intel-Macs). Well, my situation
> is different since I don't have and never had older Mac software.

But, this does explain why they are using the older G machines.  You
asked - they answered.

> 8) And last but not least -- I wanted to ask you G-users what you are using
> your Power Macs for. And if you don't experience the same difficulties
> regarding software as I do.
>
> No? Then I'm sorry. Maybe it is the language, or I'm just crazy.

If you run Tiger, I think you'll find fewer issues, at least for the
time being.  Of course, it'll just be a matter of time before a lot of
the freeware out there will require Intel and Leopard, Snow Leopard or
OS 10.7 (Garfield?).

> Either way

Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread John Niven

--- On Sat, 1/23/10, Dan  wrote:

> From: Dan 
> Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
> To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 9:30 AM
> At 2:45 PM -0800 1/22/2010, John
> Niven wrote:
> > Like all good rumor there is truth in some of this.
> > 
> > Semiconductor line widths have become so small that
> the operating voltage has had to be reduced constantly to
> combat leakage and NBTI effects. Having a overvoltage
> condition is VERY hazardous to a cpu's life. We in the
> semiconductor industry [...]
> 
> Are smart enough to put diodes and such in there to protect
> the chips from such conditions.  And besides, the power
> managers in products such as Macintosh are designed so they
> just can't crank out so much power as to fry the chips etc.

http://www.semiconductor.net/article/205454-NBTI_A_Growing_Threat_to_Device_Reliability.phphttp://www.semiconductor.net/article/205454-NBTI_A_Growing_Threat_to_Device_Reliability.php

We DO have circuits to protect against ESD, but I'm talking about much subtler 
conditions that lead to performance degredation of the transistors themselves. 
The practical upshot is the speed of the parts degrades, so since thats fixed 
by the clock, the cpu will eventually malfunction, happening first when it is 
hot.

We have to sell the parts at a lower rated speed to allow a "Useful life" 
before the speed is no longer met.


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Dan

At 11:59 AM +0100 1/23/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:

 > Why?  What did you do to it?  My 300-MHz Smurf handles files just as

 fast as my 1.5 GHz PB G4, and my housemate's x GHz AMD Windoze
 machine.  Safari displays pages almost as fast as they do too.  Iffa
 your Smurf is slow, then you messed something up.

Might well be. I installed Tiger using my G4. I did all the updates and
installed everything System Update was offering

Do you use Dashboard?  If not, disable it (with OnyX). It's chewing 
up 40 MB real memory.

Check to see how much cpu time Spotlight's indexing is chewing (md* 
processes).  You may find your system is much more responsive if you 
disable the indexing.  (Search this LEM list for the details of using 
the mdutil commands to do it).

(including iTunes 9.0.2).

iTunes performance is pretty much a total embarrassment to Apple. 
That being said, while 9 is required to talk to much of the iTunes 
Store now, the offical version for G3 systems is 8.2.1.

GIMP 2.6.6

GIMP is nice.  I prefer GraphicConverter 5.9.5 on the Smurf.

OpenOffice.org 3.1.1

Slow on any sub-GHz system.  AppleWorks kicks its butt.

Stuffit Expander 13.0.3

Known to clobber Finder's performance, and cause so many other 
problems...  StuffIt is pretty much crapware these days.  Make it go 
away.

Carbon Copy Cloner 3.2.1

Update this.

Adobe Reader 9.2 (I yet have to update to 9.3!)

If you don't need Reader for something specific, use Preview instead. 
Reader is typical Adobe crapware - it's full of security holes etc.

Burn 2.3 (the G3 build)

Nice build of ffmpeg therein; I use it often (t'was easier than 
building my own copy).  But then I use Sizzle to create the DVD 
itself - much better control etc.

...Performance tip:  Transcoding is very cpu intensive, which can 
really slow your system's response time.  So I get the process going, 
then renice it to +10.  This essentially lowers its priority, so the 
system will kick it to the curb faster when I start using the Mac for 
other things.  When I walk away from my Mac, I'm careful to sleep the 
display or at least put the mouse in the "screen saver off" corner. 
I'd rather the cpu time was given to ffmpeg or Sizzle than the screen 
saver.

  sudo renice +10 pid

Mozilla Firefox 3.5.2 (as I'm writing this 3.6 is out)
Camino 2.0.1
Flash Player 10.0.42.34
Shockwave Player 11.5.2.602

Be sure to install a Flash blocker in your browsers.  Amazing how 
fast the web becomes when Flash is put under tight control!!!

Little Snitch 2.1.4 (THIS may slow things down)

Yea, it does.

I've skipped Windows Media Components for Quicktime 2.3.0.14, since the 350
MHz G3 won't be able to play WMV files anyway.

Flip4Mac does pretty well, actually.  I've got a lot of wmv files 
that play fine on my Smurf.  And having it installed lets you 
transcode them with ffmpeg.

When I say that it's slow I'm comparing it to my G4 Dual-800 which is feeling
responsive. The G3 B&W 350 MHz lets me wait a lot, e.g. when I start typing I
can see the letters on the screen one or two seconds later until it finished
loading (the HDD is working a lot), thereafter it starts acting "normal" i.e.
without delay. This is even so when it already finished loading = sitting
there for some time waiting for me doing something with it.

You should NOT be experiencing any typeahead delays.

It's possible that Spotlight's indexing is dragging you down.

How much memory does the system have?

Internet browsing feels a lot slower too compared to the Dual-QS. But that was
expected. The speed is okay for what I do. Watching YouTube videos isn't a
good idea though, as almost 23 out of 24 frames are skipped (subjective
feeling, don't let me quote a reliable source on this!).

Firefox is noticeably slower than Safari 4.  And both can be dragged 
to their knees by Flash.

WRT YouTube... Videos are either Flash or H.264.  Flash is a slow 
pig.  And Apple's H.264 codec is horrible.  It really needs a G4 or 
better.

 > >I read so many postings here about people buying or working with

 >Power Macs and G3/G4-Laptops. [...] But why? (Why Power Macs _and_
 >why Mac OS X?)

 PowerPC based Macs, both desktop and laptop *RUN*.  With few
 exceptions, they are VERY reliable.  You give them a task and they DO
 it.  Almost forever.

I am very certain that this is true. The PowerPC architecture was more robust
than the newer Intel design is. Intels have a lot of legacy "features" to
carry along, which doesn't make the design overall better.

Nothing to do with the processor architecture.  This is about 
manufacturing quality -- Intel parts are cheap for a reason.

- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Dan


At 2:45 PM -0800 1/22/2010, John Niven wrote:

Like all good rumor there is truth in some of this.

Semiconductor line widths have become so small that the operating 
voltage has had to be reduced constantly to combat leakage and NBTI 
effects. Having a overvoltage condition is VERY hazardous to a cpu's 
life. We in the semiconductor industry [...]


Are smart enough to put diodes and such in there to protect the chips 
from such conditions.  And besides, the power managers in products 
such as Macintosh are designed so they just can't crank out so much 
power as to fry the chips etc.


My experience is that today's cpu degrade very noticeably through 
stress. I would not expect today's cpu's to have the same longevity 
as in the past. Good enough for the market? Maybe.


If by "today's cpu's" [sic] you mean Intel's products (processors, 
and other chips), then I agree.  They're simply not designed for long 
life, and then there are quality control issues...


However, I would have expected that these systems were designed to 
be fail-safe i.e. the default condition is the voltages start at a 
"safe" maximum and the fans are full on.


Exactly.

- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Lawrence David Eden

For me, the answer is simple:  My G4 PPC works perfectly and runs the 
software that I need at an acceptable speed.  An added advantage is 
that my G4 can still boot into OS 9 when needed and I can connect my 
old SCSI hard drives easily too.


I have several friends that insist on buying "the latest and the 
greatest" from Apple or various software vendors.  I, on the other 
hand, am happy with what I have.  My only complaint with my G4 is 
that it is a little "jerky" when I watch videos on the 
internet...voice and video are a little out of sync.


My wife has a G5 iMac, and I have an Intel based laptop that one of 
my schools issued meboth are very fast and very slickbut 
neither Mac  makes me envious.  So, in short, I will upgrade when I 
have to but probably not before.




Larry

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Freitag 22 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> >>OpenSSL
> >>CVE-ID: CVE-2009-3555
> >>Available for: Mac OS X v10.5.8, Mac OS X Server v10.5.8, Mac OS X
> >>v10.6.2, Mac OS X Server v10.6.2
> >>Impact: An attacker with a privileged network position may capture
> >>data or change the operations performed in sessions protected by SSL
> 
> While this is applicable to all implementations of SSL (it's a direct
> protocol failure), I'm not finding or hearing of any code that takes
> advantage of it on a Mac.

I don't think that this is at all architecture specific. Every secure page 
(https://...) could be affected by it, and it doesn't matter if you're sitting 
in front of a PowerPC-based Mac, an ALPHA-based DEC, or an x86 (Intel/AMD)-
based PC, as long as you direct your browser to an SSL encrypted page, and 
this very browser utilizes the operating systems capabilities to manage SSL. 
Mac OS X and almost all UNIXes use OpenSSL for this job. All are affected. On 
every architecture.

That is how I understand it. But maybe I'm wrong again.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Samstag 23 Januar 2010N
From:Geke 
To:  "G-Group" 

> One more angle:
> I like to type stuff in silence. Now where do you find a silent
> computer these days, and a notebook at that?
> 
> My 15-y old Powerbook 1400 (with G3 processor upgrade) has a 1GB
> compact flash card for a hard drive, and it doesn’t have a fan. It
> runs on Mac OS 8.6, just enough for simple browsing, so I can use
> google mail (in simple html mode) and e.g. type this reply.

My experience is different, since all the Macs I have make a lot of noise. The 
most silent Power Mac I own is the G5 "Late 2005" which has liquid cooling 
(even though it is the 2.0 GHz single processor (Dual Core) model -- I've read 
contrary information at everymac.com about the cooling system).

The most silent computer I have is the IBM ThinkPad R51 from 2004.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Len Gerstel



On Jan 23, 2010, at 1:06 AM, Fabian Fang wrote:


On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Len Gerstel wrote:


On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:


At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:


Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in  
general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for  
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer  
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm  
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


Some Apple software requires 10.5 or better, iWork for example.



This is not a good example.

iWork '09 does not "require 10.5 or better":


It works just fine on my PowerMac G4 under OS 10.4.11


OOPS, bad reading on my part. Sorry.

Len

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-23 Thread Geke

One more angle:
I like to type stuff in silence. Now where do you find a silent
computer these days, and a notebook at that?

My 15-y old Powerbook 1400 (with G3 processor upgrade) has a 1GB
compact flash card for a hard drive, and it doesn’t have a fan. It
runs on Mac OS 8.6, just enough for simple browsing, so I can use
google mail (in simple html mode) and e.g. type this reply.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?
Date:Freitag 22 Januar 2010N
From:Dan 
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com

> At 9:08 PM +0100 1/21/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:
> >I've just made an old G3 B&W working again (it was wasting space and
> >picking up dust for about two years or more) and it is now in my
> >office. I've installed Tiger and it is just okay working
> >with it, in other words: it is slow.
> 
> Why?  What did you do to it?  My 300-MHz Smurf handles files just as
> fast as my 1.5 GHz PB G4, and my housemate's x GHz AMD Windoze
> machine.  Safari displays pages almost as fast as they do too.  Iffa
> your Smurf is slow, then you messed something up.

Might well be. I installed Tiger using my G4. I did all the updates and 
installed everything System Update was offering (including iTunes 9.0.2).
I've then put the HDD into the G3 B&W and it booted fine and as far as I can 
see it runs all the software (I haven't tried iTunes yet and maybe I never 
will) without any errors or system hangs.

Additional software is:
  Microsoft Office:Mac 2004
  GIMP 2.6.6
  OpenOffice.org 3.1.1
  Scribus 1.3.5.1

and some additional (system) tools:
  Stuffit Expander 13.0.3
  7zX 0.7.1
  VLC 0.9.10 (the newer 1.0.3 requires Leopard...)
  Open XML File Format Converter 1.1.3 (for Office:Mac 2004)
  OnyX 1.8.5
  muCommander 0.8.4
  Carbon Copy Cloner 3.2.1
  Adobe Reader 9.2 (I yet have to update to 9.3!)
  Bean 2.4.2
  Smultron 3.1.2 (newest requires Leopard)
  0xED 1.0.7
  DOSBox 0.7.3
  Burn 2.3 (the G3 build)

the (mandatory) internet stuff:
  Mozilla Firefox 3.5.2 (as I'm writing this 3.6 is out)
  Camino 2.0.1
  Flash Player 10.0.42.34
  Shockwave Player 11.5.2.602
  Little Snitch 2.1.4 (THIS may slow things down)
  Transmission 1.54 (newest requires Leopard or even Snow Leopard)
  TeamViewer 4.1.6886 (I'm occationally helping out friends)

I'm also using some 3rd party drivers (kext, kernel extensions):
  ATIcellerator II 1.0.6b
  NTFS-3G 2004.04.04 with MacFUSE
  HPIJS 3.9.2 (updated HP printer drivers for CUPS, by the Linux Foundation)
  and the Wester Digital external HDD software for My Passport.

I've skipped Windows Media Components for Quicktime 2.3.0.14, since the 350 
MHz G3 won't be able to play WMV files anyway.

Any hint on that? What should or should I not do to make it *feel* faster?

When I say that it's slow I'm comparing it to my G4 Dual-800 which is feeling 
responsive. The G3 B&W 350 MHz lets me wait a lot, e.g. when I start typing I 
can see the letters on the screen one or two seconds later until it finished 
loading (the HDD is working a lot), thereafter it starts acting "normal" i.e. 
without delay. This is even so when it already finished loading = sitting 
there for some time waiting for me doing something with it.

This starts right after boot-up when the login screen (for the password) is 
displayed. I type the password, and the stars "*" are displayed a second 
later, sometimes it also doesn't take my "Enter" key for confirmation and 
keeps me waiting to hit enter again.

Don't get me wrong on this -- I'm very happy with my B&W. I love the idea that 
it is older than a decade and still being useful for me. I use it for writing 
texts and spreadsheets mainly, and for that it suffices for me. I have to say 
though that Word and Excel 2004 are a little bit faster than OpenOffice.org 
3.1.1 (the latest) is. OpenOffice is just too big and slow, takes a minute or 
two to even start.

Internet browsing feels a lot slower too compared to the Dual-QS. But that was 
expected. The speed is okay for what I do. Watching YouTube videos isn't a 
good idea though, as almost 23 out of 24 frames are skipped (subjective 
feeling, don't let me quote a reliable source on this!).

> >Apparently Apple has finally dropped all support for Tiger.
> 
> cite?
> 
> All my Macs, that run System 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, Panther, and
> Tiger, are still running.  They didn't suddenly gak the other day.

It's not that they would have stopped working. Why should an old system 
suddenly stop working? No. I meant that Tiger users don't get any more 
updates, especially security updates. And most newer software (take Smultron 
for example, a simple editor) doesn't support Tiger anymore. You may think 
"what's wrong using the older version?" You've got a point here. Actually, 
nothings wrong with that. It is just a fact.

The only thing I don't feel comfortable with is using older browsers or older 
versions of Java and JavaScript, but also Adobe Reader and off course Flash 
Player. I'd also add Quicktime-like software like the VLC Video Player to this 
list.

They've just fixed some serious bugs in Adobe

Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Fabian Fang


On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Len Gerstel wrote:


On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:


At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:


Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in  
general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for  
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer  
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm  
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


Some Apple software requires 10.5 or better, iWork for example.



This is not a good example.

iWork '09 does not "require 10.5 or better":


It works just fine on my PowerMac G4 under OS 10.4.11.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Stephen Conrad

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 6:51 PM, James Therrault wrote:

>
> On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Dan wrote:
>
>  At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.
>>>
>>
>> I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for
>> PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer supporting
>> Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm thinking that's just
>> general rumour or something.
>>
>> - Dan.
>>
>
>
> If "Software Update" is a factor, I still get various updates, (security,
> java etc.), at least once a month.
>
> OTOH, I suspect that Tiger will be a bygone within the next couple of years
>


I just did the "Software Update" thing and nothing was waiting (I an running
10.4.11)
I haven't seen one in awile actually


-- 
Steve Conrad
Henrietta, MO 64036

"The time has come for mankind to grow up and leave its cradle behind; to go
forth and claim our place in outer space."
  - Capt. Henry Gloval


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(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread James Therrault



On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Dan wrote:


At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:


Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for  
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer  
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm  
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


- Dan.



If "Software Update" is a factor, I still get various updates,  
(security, java etc.), at least once a month.


OTOH, I suspect that Tiger will be a bygone within the next couple of  
years.


JT

(Who's on the lookout for an el cheapo Intel machine)






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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?Winblowz connection

2010-01-22 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Kasey Smith  wrote:

>
> On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>  But you may notice "my" spinoff  thread was about speculations as to why
>> people run Microsoft Winblowz on Macs and ignore the far superior OS X.
>>  That can be very mysterious.
>>
>
> I have a few devices that need windows, unfortunately... If you have a Mac,
> do NOT buy a Magellan GPS, unless its an eXplorist (it acts like a USB
> drive.) My Triton doesn't even fully implement USB and requires the
> propriatary winblows software... Oh, my Fly Fusion pen needs one too...
> (don't yell at me saying i can get a new Mac if i didnt spend it on this
> stuff, i got the pen for $5 and the GPS for around $100...)
>
> __
>

As a would-be media producer I find a need for PCs and Winblowz too.
Because of software already owned or the need to be able to use what is on
hand.

But at the University there is an Apple store. Many students don't even give
OS X a chance. They are told by the sales goofs that it'll run Winblowz and
that is what they boot. Apple should train their people better or OS X will
be a tiny feather in history like Amiga Workbench.

And the EULA taboo against running OS X hackintoshed  will reinforce that
outcome. IMO of course.


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:48 PM, mlitwin3797  wrote:

>  * I agree with your wife.*
>



> This is the first use of a custom font I have seen on LEM since i joined a
> decade ago. A milestone!
>

And no complaints or Nannie threats ! WOO HOO !
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Kasey Smith

Heh, im a student here (freshman in high school.) Lemme know if you  
can find a 500 series (like a Quadra or Performa or even an LC)


On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Paul Twiddy wrote:

How far do you want to go? I have some 6500s down there and I might  
find a G-3 Beige File Server.


I am also retired. Worst job I have ever had. Don't like it.

Paul


On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Kasey Smith wrote:



On Jan 22, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Paul Twiddy wrote:


What kind do you want? I have some old ones in the vault.

Paul Twiddy
Past President of CACC
Charlotte Area Computer Club
ptwi...@comporium.net
Serving Charlotte Since 1978




On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:55 PM, mlitwin3797 wrote:

   I'm not cheap. I'm retired. please let me know where I can  
find an Apple for almost free.


Lol, im on the other end of the spectrum.. :\


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?


At 5:26 PM -0500 1/22/2010, Len Gerstel wrote:

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Dan wrote:

At 4:37 PM -0500 1/22/2010, Len Gerstel wrote:

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:

At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:

Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for 
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer 
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm 
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


Uh, Dan, lets see:

Last couple of security updates did not include Tiger.


Were the patches applicable to the software in Tiger?


On 12/3/09, the security update was to update Java and did not 
include 10.4 updates. Since Java is semi-independent of the OS, if 
Apple was going to keep supporting 10.4, it SEEMS to me that they 
would have updated it in 10.4 beside 10.5 and .6.


As I recall, it was for the Java release that's available on only 
Leopard/SL anyway.



The most recent one included updates to cups


Have to look at that one.


and flash


Apple could issue a new security update every week, and not keep up 
with Flash.  So I'm not going to knock them there.  Additionally - 
how many of the Flash vulnerabilities are actually exploited on OS X?



OpenSSL
CVE-ID: CVE-2009-3555
Available for: Mac OS X v10.5.8, Mac OS X Server v10.5.8, Mac OS X 
v10.6.2, Mac OS X Server v10.6.2
Impact: An attacker with a privileged network position may capture 
data or change the operations performed in sessions protected by SSL


While this is applicable to all implementations of SSL (it's a direct 
protocol failure), I'm not finding or hearing of any code that takes 
advantage of it on a Mac.


- Dan.
--
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?Winblowz connection

2010-01-22 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

But you may notice "my" spinoff  thread was about speculations as  
to why people run Microsoft Winblowz on Macs and ignore the far  
superior OS X.  That can be very mysterious.


I have a few devices that need windows, unfortunately... If you have  
a Mac, do NOT buy a Magellan GPS, unless its an eXplorist (it acts  
like a USB drive.) My Triton doesn't even fully implement USB and  
requires the propriatary winblows software... Oh, my Fly Fusion pen  
needs one too... (don't yell at me saying i can get a new Mac if i  
didnt spend it on this stuff, i got the pen for $5 and the GPS for  
around $100...)


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Paul Twiddy

How far do you want to go? I have some 6500s down there and I might find a G-3 
Beige File Server.

I am also retired. Worst job I have ever had. Don't like it.

Paul


On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Kasey Smith wrote:

> 
> On Jan 22, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Paul Twiddy wrote:
> 
>> What kind do you want? I have some old ones in the vault.
>> 
>> Paul Twiddy
>> Past President of CACC
>> Charlotte Area Computer Club
>> ptwi...@comporium.net
>> Serving Charlotte Since 1978
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:55 PM, mlitwin3797 wrote:
>> 
>>>I'm not cheap. I'm retired. please let me know where I can find an Apple 
>>> for almost free.
> 
> Lol, im on the other end of the spectrum.. :\
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
> those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power 
> Macs.
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?Winblowz connection

2010-01-22 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:40 PM, kimtoufectis wrote:

> I share many of the views expressed in this thread about using a
> computer that is a great value and does what we need it to do.  In
> most cases the need is expressed in software terms, since software is
> generally what we are referring to when we say we "use" a computer.
>
> I'd like to add that my clamshell iBook (300 Mhz, 544 MB RAM, 2 GB
> ROM) is a sustainable computing hardware project for me.  That I found
> it on eBay for $79 and have kept total project cost for software and
> hardware to $150 or so adds to the value proposition, but I use it in
> part BECAUSE it is over ten years old and still works.  Decent
> keyboard, decent screen, decent software.  I considered the new-
> netbook alternative, and one day I might acquire one of those as well,
> but as long as this serves, why introduce yet another computer to the
> wild and have reason to believe that my cast-off may well be in a
> landfill somewhere?
>
> Besides, the iBook has panache, it never crashes, and I can use
> browsers as recent as the last incarnation of Opera 9.  Yes, out-of-
> date browsers pose some risk, but perhaps we're just not much of a
> market for the malwarers...do you suppose there are many Nash Ramblers
> carved up in chopshops to feed the repair parts market these days?
>
> 
>

I love Nash Ramblers and Metropolitans too.

But you may notice "my" spinoff  thread was about speculations as to why
people run Microsoft Winblowz on Macs and ignore the far superior OS X.
That can be very mysterious.

you will not find any arguments from me on the points you made. I was sold
on Mac OS over a decade ago.


-- 
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread John Niven

Like all good rumor there is truth in some of this.

Semiconductor line widths have become so small that the operating voltage has 
had to be reduced constantly to combat leakage and NBTI effects. Having a 
overvoltage condition is VERY hazardous to a cpu's life. We in the 
semiconductor industry perform "burn-in" at the component level to remove 
infant-mortality failures before shipping. We primarily use Voltage and 
temperature as our weapons of choice, but also continue this into sample 
"life-testing" on new products. My experience is that today's cpu degrade very 
noticeably through stress. I would not expect today's cpu's to have the same 
longevity as in the past. Good enough for the market? Maybe. 

Who said "The light that burns twice as bright, burns twice as fast"?

However, I would have expected that these systems were designed to be fail-safe 
i.e. the default condition is the voltages start at a "safe" maximum and the 
fans are full on.

When I power on my G5 Xserve the fan noise is very high until the software is 
loaded to control them. I'm sure the same applies to other Macs.

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Dan  wrote:
> >> I *AM NOT* kidding. Linux
> does not know how two work the CPU voltage part of the SMC
> chip, which makes electrons jump the electron paths in the
> CPU, eventually boring new paths and shorting out the CPU.
> 
> Darn it.  Now I gotta clean coffee out of my
> keyboard.
> 
> > This is pure, unadulterated, horse hockey.
> 
> Thank you.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Kasey Smith



On Jan 22, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Paul Twiddy wrote:


What kind do you want? I have some old ones in the vault.

Paul Twiddy
Past President of CACC
Charlotte Area Computer Club
ptwi...@comporium.net
Serving Charlotte Since 1978




On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:55 PM, mlitwin3797 wrote:

   I'm not cheap. I'm retired. please let me know where I can find  
an Apple for almost free.


Lol, im on the other end of the spectrum.. :\

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Len Gerstel



On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Dan wrote:


At 4:37 PM -0500 1/22/2010, Len Gerstel wrote:

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:

At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:
Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in  
general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for  
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer  
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm  
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


Uh, Dan, lets see:

Last couple of security updates did not include Tiger.


Were the patches applicable to the software in Tiger?


On 12/3/09, the security update was to update Java and did not  
include 10.4 updates. Since Java is semi-independent of the OS, if  
Apple was going to keep supporting 10.4, it SEEMS to me that they  
would have updated it in 10.4 beside 10.5 and .6.


The most recent one included updates to cups and flash (which I think  
are like the Java update, pretty OS independent) and the following:



OpenSSL

CVE-ID: CVE-2009-3555

Available for: Mac OS X v10.5.8, Mac OS X Server v10.5.8, Mac OS X  
v10.6.2, Mac OS X Server v10.6.2


Impact: An attacker with a privileged network position may capture  
data or change the operations performed in sessions protected by SSL


Description: A man-in-the-middle vulnerability exists in the SSL  
and TLS protocols. Further information is available at http:// 
www.phonefactor.com/sslgap A change to the renegotiation protocol  
is underway within the IETF. This update disables renegotiation in  
OpenSSL as a preventive security measure. The issue does not affect  
services using Secure Transport as it does not support  
renegotiation. Credit to Steve Dispensa and Marsh Ray of  
PhoneFactor, Inc. for reporting this issue.





which sounds like a widespread problem, not just 10.5 and newer.


Some Apple software requires 10.5 or better, iWork for example.


Yes, but that's app development, not OS support.

iTunes LPs and iTunes Extras require 10.5 or better.


Again, app dev and (frankly) lame featuritis.


If they are not putting development effort into the software for the  
OS, that kind of implies that the OS will be left behind soon, also.  
See above.




Dropping implies in the process of, and those few examples seem to  
indicate it.


I'm not saying they're supporting it with every app product etc.   
I'm just not seeing some global "we've dumped this" pronouncement.


Not officially, but the writing on the wall is getting pretty big.

Len

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread starrfarr

Ok,  I'll chime in. I have Beige G3 at work running an eternal slide  
show on two 19 inch LCD monitors. And a 500mhz G4 for general  
classroom work, mostly Photoshop, on another pair of 19 inch LCDs.
Both running OSX, the G4 runs Leopard.  Very reliable and fast enough.


At home I have a dual 800 gig DA G4 for serious graphic and video work  
on still another pair of 19" LCDs.  We have a family MacBook we all  
use downstairs for email, browsing and games. I almost forgot the  
clamshell my ten year old sometimes uses,  also networked to  
everything else and the web.  The G3 iMac she occasionally turns on  
for old OS9 games isn't networked to anything.


Sure I'd like a desktop Intel Mac but who can justify the expense?   
Especially when everything else still works fine.


And the truth is much of my browsing and email is done on this little  
Touch I have in my hand right now. Pretty up to date, at least until  
next week.  Who could have imagined it?


Rich
Sent from my iPod





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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?


At 4:37 PM -0500 1/22/2010, Len Gerstel wrote:

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:

At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:

Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for 
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer 
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm 
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


Uh, Dan, lets see:

Last couple of security updates did not include Tiger.


Were the patches applicable to the software in Tiger?


Some Apple software requires 10.5 or better, iWork for example.


Yes, but that's app development, not OS support.


iTunes LPs and iTunes Extras require 10.5 or better.


Again, app dev and (frankly) lame featuritis.

Dropping implies in the process of, and those few examples seem to 
indicate it.


I'm not saying they're supporting it with every app product etc.  I'm 
just not seeing some global "we've dumped this" pronouncement.


- Dan.
--
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

I *AM NOT* kidding. Linux does not know how two work the CPU 
voltage part of the SMC chip, which makes electrons jump the 
electron paths in the CPU, eventually boring new paths and shorting 
out the CPU.


Darn it.  Now I gotta clean coffee out of my keyboard.


This is pure, unadulterated, horse hockey.


Thank you.


Ok.  Back to work.  Trying to re-wire this console so it throws 
sparks across the room whenever the cat walks by, or the cameraman 
wiggles.


- Dan.
--
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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?


At 9:08 PM +0100 1/21/2010, Mac User #330250 wrote:

I was just thinking about the future.


ow.

I've just made an old G3 B&W working again (it was wasting space and 
picking up dust for about two years or more) and it is now in my 
office. I've installed Tiger and it is just okay working

with it, in other words: it is slow.


Why?  What did you do to it?  My 300-MHz Smurf handles files just as 
fast as my 1.5 GHz PB G4, and my housemate's x GHz AMD Windoze 
machine.  Safari displays pages almost as fast as they do too.  Iffa 
your Smurf is slow, then you messed something up.



Apparently Apple has finally dropped all support for Tiger.


cite?

All my Macs, that run System 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, Panther, and 
Tiger, are still running.  They didn't suddenly gak the other day.


I read so many postings here about people buying or working with 
Power Macs and G3/G4-Laptops. [...] But why? (Why Power Macs _and_ 
why Mac OS X?)


PowerPC based Macs, both desktop and laptop *RUN*.  With few 
exceptions, they are VERY reliable.  You give them a task and they DO 
it.  Almost forever.


Intel based Macs... ROFL.  Yea, the desktops have the lowest repair 
rate in the intel-based industry.  But that's not saying much - PPC 
Macs were and are MUCH more reliable.  And the MB and MBP... You 
should see the file cabinets full of repair paperwork my clients have.



All newer software will be for Mac OS X/Intel very soon.


And you have an assumption that newer is better?   LOL  iTunes needs 
a multi GHz computer to play an mp3 without making the rest of the 
computer unusable, but QuickTime on OS 9 can do it on a 180-MHz 
machine just fine.  Yup.  That's "better".


Some of you may be using Leopard already, but it is now also just a 
question of time when it will

be dropped as well. And this is dropping PowerPC support alltogether.


eh.  Enthropy.  pffft.


So why bother with the G3-G5 anyhow?


A better question is why use the older OS releases?

And what's the right tool for the job?

A case on point: My clients have peripherals that don't work in 
Leopard or Snow Leopard.  Apple tells them to upgrade.  Yea, right, 
they're going to throw out $250K+ devices.  It is more likely that 
they'll switch to new PC hardware and run Windows 7 --- which 
(almost) talks to those old devices just fine.   (Almost = a i/o 
throughput issue that makes Windows 7 go plaid, er BSOD.  But that's 
better than Mac OS X - where the devices don't work at all).


At home, I think it's pretty stupid to dedicate a $1000+ computer to 
play streaming radio and drive a scanner.  I use a 180-MHz PM for 
that.  My main computer here is a 300 MHz Smurf.  They get the job 
done.



Newer browsers will be (Snow)Leopard-only. Tiger support will be dropped in
the forseeable future.


Yes, Apple has done a pretty good job of making Tiger support more 
difficult in XCode.  How nice of them.


Using old browsers (with ahellofalot unfixed security flaws not yet 
discovered) will also make the situation worse.


And which of those security flaws are actually exploited on the Mac?

- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?Winblowz connection

2010-01-22 Thread kimtoufectis

I share many of the views expressed in this thread about using a
computer that is a great value and does what we need it to do.  In
most cases the need is expressed in software terms, since software is
generally what we are referring to when we say we "use" a computer.

I'd like to add that my clamshell iBook (300 Mhz, 544 MB RAM, 2 GB
ROM) is a sustainable computing hardware project for me.  That I found
it on eBay for $79 and have kept total project cost for software and
hardware to $150 or so adds to the value proposition, but I use it in
part BECAUSE it is over ten years old and still works.  Decent
keyboard, decent screen, decent software.  I considered the new-
netbook alternative, and one day I might acquire one of those as well,
but as long as this serves, why introduce yet another computer to the
wild and have reason to believe that my cast-off may well be in a
landfill somewhere?

Besides, the iBook has panache, it never crashes, and I can use
browsers as recent as the last incarnation of Opera 9.  Yes, out-of-
date browsers pose some risk, but perhaps we're just not much of a
market for the malwarers...do you suppose there are many Nash Ramblers
carved up in chopshops to feed the repair parts market these days?


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Len Gerstel



On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Dan wrote:


At 12:51 PM -0800 1/21/2010, Jonas Ulrich wrote:


Yes, Apple is dropping support for PPC machines and Tiger in general.


I've seen information about Apple no longer providing parts for  
PowerPC-based Mac repairs, in some cases.  But as for no longer  
supporting Tiger?   Please provide specific citations.  I'm  
thinking that's just general rumour or something.


- Dan.


Uh, Dan, lets see:

Last couple of security updates did not include Tiger.

Some Apple software requires 10.5 or better, iWork for example.

iTunes LPs and iTunes Extras require 10.5 or better.

Dropping implies in the process of, and those few examples seem to  
indicate it.


Len
Running 10.4.11 at work for the foreseeable future


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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?

2010-01-22 Thread Bequette Jeff



Jeff Bequette
jbeque...@tconl.com


Bought my last dual g5/1.8 (June 04), six years later still doing  
almost everything I need it to do... (Civ IV would be nice, but not  
nice enough to buy new.) Works very well in leopard.  However, I  
didn't get the bluetooth option when I bought it.  Does anyone have  
recommendations, third party cards?


With teenage daughters papers and iTunes libraries, I have upgraded  
both HD's 800 and a 300gb, maxed the ram.  My daughter's new intel  
macbook (for college) can run rings around it.



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Re: Why are you (still) using PowerPC-based Macs?