Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Cara, Coolness. I'll have to look into this further. :D On 4/3/2012 1:40 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, you would need to create a basic app in XCode on a Mac, but that is as simple as opening XCode and creating a new project. Once you do that, you can use any number of interpreters. Here's a link to a Python interpreter on the Apple App Store. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/python-for-ios/id485729872?ls=1mt=8 So you can write in Python if you choose. I haven't looked these up, but there are also apparently even several BaSIC interpreters for iOS as well. So the quick answer is yes, you can code for iOS with other languages. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Yeah, but I can't just write a program in Java or Python on my Linux box and slap it on my iPhone right? I still have to end up creating some app using Object C and the iOS SDK or it won't work. At least that's my understanding of iOS development as it currently stands. On 4/2/2012 3:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Orin, Is that a question or a statement? ;) No, you can use other languages. However depending on what they are, they may need to be interpreted into Obj C. For example, I can place lines of C++ code right in the middle of my Obj C code and it works just fine. Not all languages will behave like this though… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 4:30 AM, Orin wrote: You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) ---
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Ten years? Are you really out of touch that bad? Those things are what is on market now. The PDA thing is dead and gone. I do think that win8 probably works better on a phone or tablet, because of them being touch devices. At 12:29 AM 4/4/2012, you wrote: I aggree. Ms likes to create something that is really awesome then shoot themselves in the rear either in the current os or sometimes along the way. On that note I don't know why ms just gets rid of its magnifier and narater and use free opensource stuff like nvda and a magnifier it doesn't make. Seems it would help it a load. Ms are trying to impliment tablets into the desktop market and I guess in 10 years or so when every one blind included uses a tablet touch data pad this will be second nature. Right now though I am seriously going to just upgrade to 7, or if I can bad and insecure that it is stay with xp. Heck I can use vista shite that it is with classic menus! Unfortunately I have spent to much to ever go to another os. windows programs, readers, games, office apps, the list goes on. If I could go back in time I'd convince myself that all ms software was total crap and I should use macs. ofcause I'd never play windows games, but still, apple's tablet os seems to be better layedout than ms. Ms unfortunately has the reputation of stuffing up and requiring to update their stuff because its insecure. Even uac while I like it needs certificates which most stuff doesn't have, so its useless for general use and better switched off. I remember having a program back in the old dos days called interlink. With this program and its server app inter server,I was able to do paralel and serial backups of dammaged systems. True it took days but it still was a good thing. Ofcause being realtime especially on 9x systems it slowed down loads and eventually crashed the other system. it would also render the host system unbootable if I didn't start the server first. The good thing and major reason I used it was that I could load it without speech. my host system config may look like this. well you know what a config.sys looks like. I only needed a device to be set for interlnk.exe and it would be fine. In the server end in autoexec I just needed intersvr and thats all Sadly its not that easy now. sigh At 06:12 p.m. 3/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Cara, Yes, Microsoft is working on improved accessibility by updating Narrator to be more like VoiceOver, but the beta I've seen still isn't quite VoiceOver quality. Although, some of the new voices like Microsoft David are certainly better than some of their older Sapi voices. They've also started the push towards UI Automation which insures a high degree of accessibility of apps and programs in the future. So there are certainly improvements in Windows 8. However, in typical Microsoft fashion they take one step forward and two steps back in terms of access. On one hand they have given us a much improved version of Narrator, Speech Recognizer, and Magnifier, but turn around and give us a less intuitive interface. The start screen is laid out like a table with groups and icons in columns and rows and it makes it difficult to actually find the program launcher we want. We can't just press w and jump to the Wordpad icon, but must hunt for it on the screen or type wordpad in the run dialog.Its the least accessible user interface I've seen on any modern OS to date. On Ubuntu Linux 12, for example, in Unity we can press alt+f1 which brings the focus to the quick launch panel. The Launcher Panel is a nice little area on the Unity desktop to place quick launch icons for frequently used applications and folders which is easier than browsing the menus for the icons. Plus with the addition of the quick launch panel we can now use the super key with numbers 1through 0 to launch apps from the quick launch panel and bring focus to that application's window. In short, the features showing up in Ubuntu 11 and 12 are obvious ideas borrowed from Windows 7 which are certainly good things that will pay off accessibility wise for VI Linux users. Anyway, I hadn't thought about picking up a used Mac Mini or MacBook for software development, but that is a good idea. It would probably save me some money, and as you said the Mac OS upgrades are cheaper than Windows upgrades. So its something to think about once my financial situation gets straightened out. Cheers! On 4/3/2012 2:00 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, wow, I wasn't aware Win 8 was as crazy as that. I thought they were supposed to be doing a big push for accessibility and are supposedly developing their own screen reader a'la Voiceover? Yes? Anyway, on the subject of Mac / iOS, remember that all the dev tools are free so yes, it will cost a bit up front but after that, with the exception of your developer membership ($99 per year) everything you need to write apps is free. Plus, the Mac OS
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Shaun, You are a bit behind the times. Tablet PCs are already very popular, and we don't have to wait 10 years to see them dominate the market. Apple's iPad, for example, is doing very well in the tablet market and other software developers like Microsoft and Canonical are attempting to break into the tablet market too. The big push for the Unity desktop environment on Ubuntu 12 is geared for tablet PCs and smart phones, and any other touchscreen type device. However, as Ubuntu Linux is also a desktop operating system Dell desktops, laptops, and netbooks will begin shipping later this year with the new Unity interface preinstalled as well. Bottom line, Linux developers like Canonical are trying to grab the tablet market early on, and Microsoft's Windows 8 is attempting to do the same thing. What this means for us in terms of game development is to begin thinking of what operating systems will be available for tablets and perhaps developing software in that direction. Obviously if the tablet is running Windows 8 or Ubuntu Linux developing software for the tablet will be easier than for an OS device like Apple's iPad. However, this is the kind of future we are looking at because it is relatively in expensive to by a new tablet with accessibility right out of the box. You can pick up an Apple iPad from just about any electronics store in the USA, bring it home, enable VoiceOver, and have a fully accessible portable device to play mp3s, browse the web, check e-mail, take notes, or carry it around with your shopping list on it. Portable media like this is the way of the future and its already here. WE don't have to wait 10 years to see this happen. It is already a reality. As to the idea of Microsoft ditching Narrator for NVDA you seriously need to get a grip on reality. There are a number of reasons why that won't happen, and why it couldn't happen if they wanted to. First, NVDA is fully open source. It would be a violation of the GPL for Microsoft to take the screen reader and sell it as a part of their commercial software. They'd have to release the source code for the screen reader, the dependencies it uses, etc which is not their style. Its just incompatible with their commercial licenses. Second, NVDA depends on a number of open source technologies not the least of which is the Python runtime. BrilleTTY, ESpeak, and a few other components are open source which brings us right back to the first issue of license incompatibilities. Third, NVDA is written in Python. Keep in mind Microsoft developers are trained in Visual C++, Visual C#, and Visual Basic, the Microsoft languages, so how many Microsoft developers are likely to actually know and use Python? The point I want to make here is that they aren't trained or certified for Python. Microsoft would have to retrain their developers to work on NVDA development, and then would have to resubmit any changes back into the open source community. Microsoft will never do this willingly. Finally, Narrator, Magnifier, and so on were in development before NVDA even existed. Microsoft already has a screen reader etc. They just need to get off their apathy and upgrade it so that it is comparable to NVDA or something else of equal quality. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Its to bad that the new metro system at least on desktops is quite hard to navigate and quite clunky though. At 06:32 p.m. 4/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Shaun, You are a bit behind the times. Tablet PCs are already very popular, and we don't have to wait 10 years to see them dominate the market. Apple's iPad, for example, is doing very well in the tablet market and other software developers like Microsoft and Canonical are attempting to break into the tablet market too. The big push for the Unity desktop environment on Ubuntu 12 is geared for tablet PCs and smart phones, and any other touchscreen type device. However, as Ubuntu Linux is also a desktop operating system Dell desktops, laptops, and netbooks will begin shipping later this year with the new Unity interface preinstalled as well. Bottom line, Linux developers like Canonical are trying to grab the tablet market early on, and Microsoft's Windows 8 is attempting to do the same thing. What this means for us in terms of game development is to begin thinking of what operating systems will be available for tablets and perhaps developing software in that direction. Obviously if the tablet is running Windows 8 or Ubuntu Linux developing software for the tablet will be easier than for an OS device like Apple's iPad. However, this is the kind of future we are looking at because it is relatively in expensive to by a new tablet with accessibility right out of the box. You can pick up an Apple iPad from just about any electronics store in the USA, bring it home, enable VoiceOver, and have a fully accessible portable device to play mp3s, browse the web, check e-mail, take notes, or carry it around with your shopping list on it. Portable media like this is the way of the future and its already here. WE don't have to wait 10 years to see this happen. It is already a reality. As to the idea of Microsoft ditching Narrator for NVDA you seriously need to get a grip on reality. There are a number of reasons why that won't happen, and why it couldn't happen if they wanted to. First, NVDA is fully open source. It would be a violation of the GPL for Microsoft to take the screen reader and sell it as a part of their commercial software. They'd have to release the source code for the screen reader, the dependencies it uses, etc which is not their style. Its just incompatible with their commercial licenses. Second, NVDA depends on a number of open source technologies not the least of which is the Python runtime. BrilleTTY, ESpeak, and a few other components are open source which brings us right back to the first issue of license incompatibilities. Third, NVDA is written in Python. Keep in mind Microsoft developers are trained in Visual C++, Visual C#, and Visual Basic, the Microsoft languages, so how many Microsoft developers are likely to actually know and use Python? The point I want to make here is that they aren't trained or certified for Python. Microsoft would have to retrain their developers to work on NVDA development, and then would have to resubmit any changes back into the open source community. Microsoft will never do this willingly. Finally, Narrator, Magnifier, and so on were in development before NVDA even existed. Microsoft already has a screen reader etc. They just need to get off their apathy and upgrade it so that it is comparable to NVDA or something else of equal quality. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, wow, I wasn't aware Win 8 was as crazy as that. I thought they were supposed to be doing a big push for accessibility and are supposedly developing their own screen reader a'la Voiceover?… Yes?… Anyway, on the subject of Mac / iOS, remember that all the dev tools are free so yes, it will cost a bit up front but after that, with the exception of your developer membership ($99 per year) everything you need to write apps is free. Plus, the Mac OS updates are like $29 so even that is ridiculously inexpensive! :) If you wanted, you could also look for a refurbished Mac Mini which would be more than capable of running XCode. So you could use that for your development machine. -Just some thoughts… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! I had no idea that there were that many blind iPhone users. I knew they were becoming popular, people have mentioned them a lot on lists, but definitely I underestimated the actual size of those who own and use them. Which goes to show that there is a substantial market that is being overlooked because of the prevailing opinion that Windows is the only show in town. That 1,238 members of the VI Phone list is larger than Audyssey and I believe the audio games forum combined. That's a huge market we could in theory target if we wanted to break into it. As for getting a Mac and developing games for Mac's and iPhones I've definitely thought about it. I don't have the cash right now, but I've been thinking about switching to Mac for quite a while now do to purely practical reasons. One, I'm beta testing Windows 8 and to be perfectly honest about it I'm not impressed. There are things here and there I like about Windows 8, but over all I don't really care for it. Many of the UI changes such as the ribbons, the new start screen setup, and the general look and feel of the OS isn't appealing to me. Its designed for a touch screen and if you are blind and have to use a keyboard to get around its not really that user friendly or intuitive. The desktop has pretty much been phased out of use so I can't just copy my icons to the desktop like on prior versions of Windows which means I either have to dock them to the taskbar, fight with the confusing startscreen arrangement, or use run to launch the program. That part of it royally sucks. So I'm not really looking forward to using Win 8 in any copacity for my personal use. Second, while I am a faithful Linux user I'm smart enough to see that accessibility isn't as good as it could be. Apple is still far ahead because they have a dedicated team of developers who work on VoiceOver and do access testing with Cocoa to make sure the standard graphics toolkit etc is reasonably accessible with VoiceOver out of the box. As a result when I looked at 10.7 I couldn't believe how user friendly and accessible the design was, and it just keeps getting better. With Ubuntu 12.04 in some regards access took a massive step backwards. Unity 3D the default graphical environment is an accessibility nightmare. The Unity 2D environment is much better, but I still find installing gnome-classic as the most accessible graphical environment to date for Linux. Its a workable solution, but not without doing some extra configuration and having some experience configuring the system to have maximum accessibility. That's fine for an experienced Linux user like myself, as I know how to configure it to get it to do what I want, but experience or not its still frustrating to have to reconfigure everything to get access working as good as it can be. So I've been thinking that Mac OS right now might cost more up front to invest in, but its probably the best solution for a blind user. It seems Apple's accessibility has been growing by leaps and bounds and its worth the investment. Cheers! On 4/2/2012 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Cara, Yes, Microsoft is working on improved accessibility by updating Narrator to be more like VoiceOver, but the beta I've seen still isn't quite VoiceOver quality. Although, some of the new voices like Microsoft David are certainly better than some of their older Sapi voices. They've also started the push towards UI Automation which insures a high degree of accessibility of apps and programs in the future. So there are certainly improvements in Windows 8. However, in typical Microsoft fashion they take one step forward and two steps back in terms of access. On one hand they have given us a much improved version of Narrator, Speech Recognizer, and Magnifier, but turn around and give us a less intuitive interface. The start screen is laid out like a table with groups and icons in columns and rows and it makes it difficult to actually find the program launcher we want. We can't just press w and jump to the Wordpad icon, but must hunt for it on the screen or type wordpad in the run dialog.Its the least accessible user interface I've seen on any modern OS to date. On Ubuntu Linux 12, for example, in Unity we can press alt+f1 which brings the focus to the quick launch panel. The Launcher Panel is a nice little area on the Unity desktop to place quick launch icons for frequently used applications and folders which is easier than browsing the menus for the icons. Plus with the addition of the quick launch panel we can now use the super key with numbers 1through 0 to launch apps from the quick launch panel and bring focus to that application's window. In short, the features showing up in Ubuntu 11 and 12 are obvious ideas borrowed from Windows 7 which are certainly good things that will pay off accessibility wise for VI Linux users. Anyway, I hadn't thought about picking up a used Mac Mini or MacBook for software development, but that is a good idea. It would probably save me some money, and as you said the Mac OS upgrades are cheaper than Windows upgrades. So its something to think about once my financial situation gets straightened out. Cheers! On 4/3/2012 2:00 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, wow, I wasn't aware Win 8 was as crazy as that. I thought they were supposed to be doing a big push for accessibility and are supposedly developing their own screen reader a'la Voiceover?… Yes?… Anyway, on the subject of Mac / iOS, remember that all the dev tools are free so yes, it will cost a bit up front but after that, with the exception of your developer membership ($99 per year) everything you need to write apps is free. Plus, the Mac OS updates are like $29 so even that is ridiculously inexpensive! :) If you wanted, you could also look for a refurbished Mac Mini which would be more than capable of running XCode. So you could use that for your development machine. -Just some thoughts… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
FYI, have a listen, -Forwarded Message- From: John J Herzog [mailto:johnjher...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:12 AM Subject: windows 8 narrator, provides hype and not hope Hello everyone, I just completed a podcast explaining how narrator works in the new windows 8. Here is the link, and below are my opinions. I urge you to share this with every blind person you know, before our time to change things for the newest windows has passed. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15813782/windows%208%20narrator%20demo.mp3 Ok, now here are my thoughts. Long story short, Narrator is incredibly disappointing, and yet Microsoft is emphatically stating how great the upcoming accessibility will be on their developer blog. I am sending this podcast to all of you with the hopes that you will have ideas on how we can encourage blind consumers to pressure Microsoft to do better. It is clear to me that Microsoft is interested in nothing more than positive publicity for helping everybody out, yet does not want to put in the effort to give the blind a truly usable screen reader. Louis, narrator is no better in the consumer preview than it was in the developer version of windows released last September. Microsoft claims that over 10 changes were made from the first preview of windows to the current beta. And yet nothing was done for accessibility in that time. If we do not voice our disappointment as a community, then the final version of windows will likely not contain further accessibility improvements. To Marlaina and everybody else, you need to give this a listen to understand what Microsoft claims they are doing versus what they are actually doing. Scott, I know you were with me when I produced this tonight. However, I cannot find the link needed to submit this to the blind cool tech web site. Maybe one of you can get this posted to serotalk? If not, then I hope you all will share this with every other blind person you know. I normally don't get upset when things won't work as advertised. However, Microsoft really should know better than to produce such a flawed access solution. When better screen readers can be found in free operating systems such as Linux, there is a definite problem that needs to be addressed. And when they market accessibility, they really should have a product that stands up to the claim that it makes windows an inclusive operating system for everybody. I don't mean to rant, but give this a listen and let me know what you think. Thank you, John --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
I aggree. Ms likes to create something that is really awesome then shoot themselves in the rear either in the current os or sometimes along the way. On that note I don't know why ms just gets rid of its magnifier and narater and use free opensource stuff like nvda and a magnifier it doesn't make. Seems it would help it a load. Ms are trying to impliment tablets into the desktop market and I guess in 10 years or so when every one blind included uses a tablet touch data pad this will be second nature. Right now though I am seriously going to just upgrade to 7, or if I can bad and insecure that it is stay with xp. Heck I can use vista shite that it is with classic menus! Unfortunately I have spent to much to ever go to another os. windows programs, readers, games, office apps, the list goes on. If I could go back in time I'd convince myself that all ms software was total crap and I should use macs. ofcause I'd never play windows games, but still, apple's tablet os seems to be better layedout than ms. Ms unfortunately has the reputation of stuffing up and requiring to update their stuff because its insecure. Even uac while I like it needs certificates which most stuff doesn't have, so its useless for general use and better switched off. I remember having a program back in the old dos days called interlink. With this program and its server app inter server,I was able to do paralel and serial backups of dammaged systems. True it took days but it still was a good thing. Ofcause being realtime especially on 9x systems it slowed down loads and eventually crashed the other system. it would also render the host system unbootable if I didn't start the server first. The good thing and major reason I used it was that I could load it without speech. my host system config may look like this. well you know what a config.sys looks like. I only needed a device to be set for interlnk.exe and it would be fine. In the server end in autoexec I just needed intersvr and thats all Sadly its not that easy now. sigh At 06:12 p.m. 3/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Cara, Yes, Microsoft is working on improved accessibility by updating Narrator to be more like VoiceOver, but the beta I've seen still isn't quite VoiceOver quality. Although, some of the new voices like Microsoft David are certainly better than some of their older Sapi voices. They've also started the push towards UI Automation which insures a high degree of accessibility of apps and programs in the future. So there are certainly improvements in Windows 8. However, in typical Microsoft fashion they take one step forward and two steps back in terms of access. On one hand they have given us a much improved version of Narrator, Speech Recognizer, and Magnifier, but turn around and give us a less intuitive interface. The start screen is laid out like a table with groups and icons in columns and rows and it makes it difficult to actually find the program launcher we want. We can't just press w and jump to the Wordpad icon, but must hunt for it on the screen or type wordpad in the run dialog.Its the least accessible user interface I've seen on any modern OS to date. On Ubuntu Linux 12, for example, in Unity we can press alt+f1 which brings the focus to the quick launch panel. The Launcher Panel is a nice little area on the Unity desktop to place quick launch icons for frequently used applications and folders which is easier than browsing the menus for the icons. Plus with the addition of the quick launch panel we can now use the super key with numbers 1through 0 to launch apps from the quick launch panel and bring focus to that application's window. In short, the features showing up in Ubuntu 11 and 12 are obvious ideas borrowed from Windows 7 which are certainly good things that will pay off accessibility wise for VI Linux users. Anyway, I hadn't thought about picking up a used Mac Mini or MacBook for software development, but that is a good idea. It would probably save me some money, and as you said the Mac OS upgrades are cheaper than Windows upgrades. So its something to think about once my financial situation gets straightened out. Cheers! On 4/3/2012 2:00 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, wow, I wasn't aware Win 8 was as crazy as that. I thought they were supposed to be doing a big push for accessibility and are supposedly developing their own screen reader a'la Voiceover? Yes? Anyway, on the subject of Mac / iOS, remember that all the dev tools are free so yes, it will cost a bit up front but after that, with the exception of your developer membership ($99 per year) everything you need to write apps is free. Plus, the Mac OS updates are like $29 so even that is ridiculously inexpensive! :) If you wanted, you could also look for a refurbished Mac Mini which would be more than capable of running XCode. So you could use that for your development machine. -Just some thoughts Smiles, Cara :)
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, Then we're on the same wavelength. Best of luck with your engine, I hope it's well received and that you make some nice games with it! Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Philip, Yeah, I see. You have a good point there. I didn't really think about it that way, but you are right. I could have just stated features x, y, and z and left it at that rather than comparing it to BGT. I certainly understand your opinion, and why you feel like I was criticizing BGT. Next time I'll be more mindful of this, and attempt to just stick to features x, y, and z without attempting to compare a product of mine to someone else's product. As you say most people can do that themselves by downloading and trying each product and find out what they personally liked or disliked. Obviously, I'm excited about the new project, and I suppose I went a bit over the top. There are a lot of little things I like about my new engine. While I generally prefer C or C++ I'm growing to like Python more and more because it is quick, simple, and allows me to just do something without a lot of unecessary overhead. In a way the new engine is like BGT in that all the core modules are compiled, but are wrapped with a very quick and simple scripting language that allows me to get things done quicker and easier than I ever could in C++. In addition, I've actually redesigned some aspects of the engine from scratch to simplify them for myself as well as new programmers that never occured to me before. For example, in the Genesis engine, the one written in C++, I have a header file called serface.h which has several surface constants like dirt, snow, water, mud, stone, etc. While it is a pretty comprehensive list I'm still finding I have to add to that list of constants because as I write more games I need more customized surfaces. Well, I've totally simplified this in Open G3D. Instead of passing a constant variable like SURFACE_STONE I can just pass a string like stone which is far simpler than defining several constant variables. Its totally flexable because I can use a string of text to identify doors, walls, surfaces, etc which is not restricted to some predefined constants. I like it, and I'm strongly considering modifying the C++ version of the engine to adopt some of these new changes. Cheers! On 4/1/2012 7:24 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi Thomas, These things are certainly true, but that was not what I was taking issue with. My question was more along the lines of, why must you target BGT specifically? Why can you not simply say that this engine offers this and this feature, open source being considered a feature in this case, and then let the users do the comparison based on what they consider important? The end result when you write something like that newsletter becomes, at least in my eyes, a side by side list saying why your engine is superior. This is marketing, of course, but I think it would be just as effective just to point out the advantages that you see with your engine without putting other things down. It is possible to mention advantages without mentioning specific products that you want to beat, as it were. It's not really necessary as far as I'm concerned. You say that you are frustrated that BGT is being mentioned whenever someone is asking about developing audio games. Could this be because of merit? It sounds, forgive me for saying so, like a case of envy when viewed in that light. To take an example. When I put out the Perilous Hearts concept demo, I stressed the things that I thought made it worth playing. I could easily have done a side by side comparison with Mota, and pointed out things I didn't like about Mota and stated why my game does this or that in a better way. I chose not to do this because it doesn't really add to the effectiveness of my sales pitch, and it would be negative for you as a fellow game designer in such a small community. This is what I'm getting at. It's really not a question of what either of our engines can or cannot do, but rather how these things are presented. Naturally one does have to make direct comparisons sometimes, but I feel personally that this went a bit over the top especially considering the message from yesterday on top. I would like to just coexist peacefully without arguing who's engine is the best. That's up to the users. Make them aware of the features, cross platform or not, networking or not, etc etc and then let them determine what they want. I would be very surprised if people were not aware that there are other options besides BGT, so I don't think this has to be stressed any further as it is just common sense. No need to point out flaws in other products in order to accomplish ones own success, in such a small community
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Orin, I don't know if things have changed at all over the past few years, but when I was developing I-phone stuff you could only write it with Objective C. It's not that bad but yes, if you struggled with BGT then I can see why you wouldn't care much for Objective C. You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Philip, Thanks. Hopefully this project will turn out as good as it sounds. At this point its as much experimental as based on background research. this will be the first time an audio game developer will be considering using SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, as a core part of an audio game engine. I'm unclear how successful I'll be with it because SDL Mixer is a very very generic API for mixing and playing audio. While it has 2d stereo panningwhich is fine for some games I'll probably have to invest some time in developing some modules for FMOD or OpenAL for anything that requires 5.1 3d audio support. That said, I have a pretty good idea of what should be possible using this engine. There are some limitations like the lack of 5.1 surround sound support for more realistic 3d audio environments, no force feedback support for joysticks, and things like that, but I can think of several good games that don't require those advanced features anyway. I know several games for Linux that are decent games that don't really need that sort of thing to be good. There is Lin City which is a free open source clone of Sim City. There is Free Civ which is a clone of Civilization. There is Flight Gear which is a clone of Microsoft Flight Simulator. Not to mention all the free arcade games like Asteroids, Missile Command, Frozen Bubble, Super Tux, Packman, etc. All are written using SDL so even though its not in the same league as DirectX I think we can bring some relatively decent games to the platform. Plus as I'm not dealing with a lot of 3d graphics and such Python should be able to handle the games well enough. Cheers! On 4/2/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi Thomas, Then we're on the same wavelength. Best of luck with your engine, I hope it's well received and that you make some nice games with it! Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Orin, Is that a question or a statement? ;) No, you can use other languages. However depending on what they are, they may need to be interpreted into Obj C. For example, I can place lines of C++ code right in the middle of my Obj C code and it works just fine. Not all languages will behave like this though… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 4:30 AM, Orin wrote: You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Cara, Yeah, but I can't just write a program in Java or Python on my Linux box and slap it on my iPhone right? I still have to end up creating some app using Object C and the iOS SDK or it won't work. At least that's my understanding of iOS development as it currently stands. On 4/2/2012 3:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Orin, Is that a question or a statement? ;) No, you can use other languages. However depending on what they are, they may need to be interpreted into Obj C. For example, I can place lines of C++ code right in the middle of my Obj C code and it works just fine. Not all languages will behave like this though… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 4:30 AM, Orin wrote: You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Cara, Wow! I had no idea that there were that many blind iPhone users. I knew they were becoming popular, people have mentioned them a lot on lists, but definitely I underestimated the actual size of those who own and use them. Which goes to show that there is a substantial market that is being overlooked because of the prevailing opinion that Windows is the only show in town. That 1,238 members of the VI Phone list is larger than Audyssey and I believe the audio games forum combined. That's a huge market we could in theory target if we wanted to break into it. As for getting a Mac and developing games for Mac's and iPhones I've definitely thought about it. I don't have the cash right now, but I've been thinking about switching to Mac for quite a while now do to purely practical reasons. One, I'm beta testing Windows 8 and to be perfectly honest about it I'm not impressed. There are things here and there I like about Windows 8, but over all I don't really care for it. Many of the UI changes such as the ribbons, the new start screen setup, and the general look and feel of the OS isn't appealing to me. Its designed for a touch screen and if you are blind and have to use a keyboard to get around its not really that user friendly or intuitive. The desktop has pretty much been phased out of use so I can't just copy my icons to the desktop like on prior versions of Windows which means I either have to dock them to the taskbar, fight with the confusing startscreen arrangement, or use run to launch the program. That part of it royally sucks. So I'm not really looking forward to using Win 8 in any copacity for my personal use. Second, while I am a faithful Linux user I'm smart enough to see that accessibility isn't as good as it could be. Apple is still far ahead because they have a dedicated team of developers who work on VoiceOver and do access testing with Cocoa to make sure the standard graphics toolkit etc is reasonably accessible with VoiceOver out of the box. As a result when I looked at 10.7 I couldn't believe how user friendly and accessible the design was, and it just keeps getting better. With Ubuntu 12.04 in some regards access took a massive step backwards. Unity 3D the default graphical environment is an accessibility nightmare. The Unity 2D environment is much better, but I still find installing gnome-classic as the most accessible graphical environment to date for Linux. Its a workable solution, but not without doing some extra configuration and having some experience configuring the system to have maximum accessibility. That's fine for an experienced Linux user like myself, as I know how to configure it to get it to do what I want, but experience or not its still frustrating to have to reconfigure everything to get access working as good as it can be. So I've been thinking that Mac OS right now might cost more up front to invest in, but its probably the best solution for a blind user. It seems Apple's accessibility has been growing by leaps and bounds and its worth the investment. Cheers! On 4/2/2012 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hmm. Yet they add machine support to their VmWare Fusion so you can virtualize Mac on another Mac. How convenient… Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Orin, Unfortunately, the only way to program games and apps for iOS devices is to program it in Objective C with their proprietary tools and proprietary APIs. Plus since Apples license agreement for Mac OS prevent companies like VMware adding virtualization support for Mac OS to their virtual machines we end up having to buy a Mac to do it. As a result its not really a viable option for most developers as there is quite a bit of startup cost involved in acquiring the hardware and software required to write iOS applications. That's why I definitely won't be writing anything for iOS in the near future. Cheers! On 4/2/2012 7:30 AM, Orin wrote: You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Orin, Yeah, but I guess as long as it is on their own hardware Apple doesn't care. They just get piffy with people who have non-apple hardware attempting to virtualize Mac OS along side Linux or Windows. As long as people pay for the software why should they care if it is on a Toshiba, Del, Compaq, etc? I suppose its all a part of their marketing strategy. If you want the software then they require you run it exclusively on their hardware and only their hardware. That said, there are ways to get around it if someone doesn't mind violating a few rules. I've seen some Youtube videos where people have installed VMware Player and got Mac OS to work on their desktop or laptop. Unfortunately it requires an Intel processor to work successfully and half my machines use AMD processors so virtualizing Mac OS on this laptop wouldn't work at all. On 4/2/2012 7:25 PM, Orin wrote: Hmm. Yet they add machine support to their VmWare Fusion so you can virtualize Mac on another Mac. How convenient… Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, you would need to create a basic app in XCode on a Mac, but that is as simple as opening XCode and creating a new project. Once you do that, you can use any number of interpreters. Here's a link to a Python interpreter on the Apple App Store. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/python-for-ios/id485729872?ls=1mt=8 So you can write in Python if you choose. I haven't looked these up, but there are also apparently even several BaSIC interpreters for iOS as well. So the quick answer is yes, you can code for iOS with other languages. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Yeah, but I can't just write a program in Java or Python on my Linux box and slap it on my iPhone right? I still have to end up creating some app using Object C and the iOS SDK or it won't work. At least that's my understanding of iOS development as it currently stands. On 4/2/2012 3:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Orin, Is that a question or a statement? ;) No, you can use other languages. However depending on what they are, they may need to be interpreted into Obj C. For example, I can place lines of C++ code right in the middle of my Obj C code and it works just fine. Not all languages will behave like this though… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 2, 2012, at 4:30 AM, Orin wrote: You know, does Apple only let you code games in Objective C? That's kind of a slap in the face to people who prefer other languages such as Python. I'm in the Mac dev program so I'd love to create a game, but I can't get my head around BGT, which means I won't be able to get my head around Objective C. I was looking at Patyon and the syntax and everything is just easier, plus I like how you can test if something works or if you are doing it right in the Python shell. Orin orin8...@gmail.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks Skype: orin1112 On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :)
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Well Ryan is not far off on his thoughts for platform. If you would think a moment. Just where do the majority of the blind or disabled get there computer/ The go to the government and orgs. Witch have contracts with FS and that means windows based computers. Not many orgs want to go against contract and get a Mac from Apple. Just because cross platform sounds nice, it's not practical think in the blind community. There are still only a handful that run Mac or linix. Those are mostly thought of as private ventures. That is why support for linix stuff is not really that good for us disabled. Yes, your going to say it is, but in reality it is being left behind and broken with every build. When doing programming for the mas community. You have to look at the reality and not what is fantasy only the game goes that rout. At 11:27 PM 3/31/2012, you wrote: Hi Ryan, Well, that is debatible, and to be honest is a bit bias. What I mean by that is you are assuming that everyone uses Windows and that Mac OS and Linux users aren't included in this discussion. As I recall the initial message asked what language or languages would be good for writing games for Mac, Linux, mobile devices, etc and BGT doesn't remotely cover that aspect of his message. While I will agree that BGT is a nice tool it is not the be all and end all of accessible game development. Cheers! On 3/31/2012 5:44 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: I completely echo this sentiment. BGT has a lot of great features that would cover anything you want to accomplish in terms of creating an audio game. Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Tom, Amazing how much you extrapolated from my brief post. You said: Well, that is debatible, [sic] and to be honest is a bit bias. It's most certainly biased. It's biased in favor of market trends which overwhelmingly show that the majority of blind computer users are Windows users. While BGT is not cross-platform, it hardly needs to be in order to support the widest possible customer base. At present that base lies in windows, and nothing compatible to BGT exists elsewhere. Had I not already invested more than a year into learning Python, I would make the switch myself without reservation. You said: While I will agree that BGT is a nice tool it is not the be all and end all of accessible game development. That's funny given how much you recommended it in the past to aspiring game developers. I daresay the only reason you've flip-flopped now is you have it in your head to produce a competing product in Python. By the way, do you still think Python is suitable only for text adventures and is useful only for script kitties? Have fun, Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 10:28 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Ryan, Well, that is debatible, and to be honest is a bit bias. What I mean by that is you are assuming that everyone uses Windows and that Mac OS and Linux users aren't included in this discussion. As I recall the initial message asked what language or languages would be good for writing games for Mac, Linux, mobile devices, etc and BGT doesn't remotely cover that aspect of his message. While I will agree that BGT is a nice tool it is not the be all and end all of accessible game development. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Philip, My apologies regarding the tone of my prior message. It came off a bit harsher than I had intended. I've always admired the work you've done with BGT, but at the same time I do get a bit frustrated about the fact its now the first thing everyone thinks of when anyone mentions game development. In particular, because it only targets one group of gamers. In this specific case the option or potential to develop games for other platforms was mentioned so naturally I have a personal stake in the outcome of that decision. However, instead of some more cross-platform suggestions being proposed it just seemed to me like BGT is being offfered up as the one-size fits all solution when of course it lacked the most important feature to me which was cross-platform support. However, as you said all of this really depends on how much cross-platform support matters to the developer personally, but I didn['t want the cross-platform option to be ignored or taken too lightly. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, What you say makes sense. I realize that cross platform support is important to you personally, I have just been getting the impression that you have been attempting to somehow discredit the general usefulness of the engine on this basis alone. Your last newsletter for instance has many such remarks that, to me, were quite unnecessary in terms of the tone. I realize that it may not have been meant that way, but it gives me the impression that you felt it necessary to paint BGT in a rather negative light in order to stress the importance of your own product. Then this message came on top of that last night and so I wanted to say something. The fact that BGT is recommended is, of course, something that I'm personally very happy about but it should not hinder you in any way from making a competing product with cross platform support and then letting people decide what to use. I will be the first to say that BGT is not suitable if you want support for Linux, Mac or mobile devices, but the fact remains that Windows still has the absolute majority of the blind market. What I'm saying is, I'm sure we can develop our engines simultaneously and help one another by recommending our respective products to users depending on their requirements, rather than work against one another and try to bring the other package down on whatever grounds. I for one think that it is a great initiative that you're taking with your engine, and will not hesitate to recommend it to people should cross platform be an important factor for them. And this is despite the fact that we're competing! Smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Philip, My apologies regarding the tone of my prior message. It came off a bit harsher than I had intended. I've always admired the work you've done with BGT, but at the same time I do get a bit frustrated about the fact its now the first thing everyone thinks of when anyone mentions game development. In particular, because it only targets one group of gamers. In this specific case the option or potential to develop games for other platforms was mentioned so naturally I have a personal stake in the outcome of that decision. However, instead of some more cross-platform suggestions being proposed it just seemed to me like BGT is being offfered up as the one-size fits all solution when of course it lacked the most important feature to me which was cross-platform support. However, as you said all of this really depends on how much cross-platform support matters to the developer personally, but I didn['t want the cross-platform option to be ignored or taken too lightly. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Trouble, What you say is certainly true, but I think you missed the point I was attempting to make. Dakotah had asked about the possibility of cross-platform development and I merely wanted to point out that BBGT would not fulfill this requirement. Weather developing games for Mac, Linux, smart phones, etc is practical is another issue altogether. Ditto for Linux accessibility. Neither have any bearing on what programming languages might help a developer program games for Linux if a developer is thinking of doing so. As for the issue about Windows being the primary target market there is no arguing that point. I know as well as any software developer that Windows holds a solid 85% of the mainstream PC market, and the blind market is probably even higher than that because of state agencies that purchase only Windows PCs. That does not however excuse the fact there are communities of blind PC users using Mac OS and there is a thriving community of Linux users that would like to have games written for their platform as well. Most audio game developers just don't care because its not their problem, and will stand by the old its not practical song and dance. In many cases that's true. However, as I'm discovering it can be done if a developer really and truly has a desire to do it. For example, let's face it Pygame is not in the same class as DirectX, but if a game doesn't require any kind of advanced input and 3d audio etc its still possible to create some decent games with Pygame which is based on SDL. I think we all agree Entombed is an awesome roguelike RPG,and we could certainly write something like that in Python with Pygame as all we need here is basic keyboard input and a sound API to pan sounds. Add pyttsx for Sapi and Espeak support and we now have a fully cross-platform compatible game that is very decent. Am I saying it is practical to create every single game using these APIs and technologies? No, but I can clearly see games like Time of Conflict, Entombed, Spoonbill Software's games, Jim Kitchen's games, etc being ported to Mac and Linux with very little difficulty if a developer wants to put the time and effort into it. Its just that most don't want to put the time or effort into it because they personally don't use Linux or Mac. In that light its not a case of being practical or impractical, but a lack of interest and motivation on the part of the developer. Cheers! On 4/1/2012 7:37 AM, Trouble wrote: Well Ryan is not far off on his thoughts for platform. If you would think a moment. Just where do the majority of the blind or disabled get there computer/ The go to the government and orgs. Witch have contracts with FS and that means windows based computers. Not many orgs want to go against contract and get a Mac from Apple. Just because cross platform sounds nice, it's not practical think in the blind community. There are still only a handful that run Mac or linix. Those are mostly thought of as private ventures. That is why support for linix stuff is not really that good for us disabled. Yes, your going to say it is, but in reality it is being left behind and broken with every build. When doing programming for the mas community. You have to look at the reality and not what is fantasy only the game goes that rout. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Ryan, Let's not turn this into an argument as that was not my intent. What I was intending to say is that there are other options besides BGT, and I feel that people should not automatically suggest BGT without at least giving some other options a mention as well. Have I recommended BGT in the past? Yes, I have. Its a great tool for beginners and for people only interested in Windows game development. Those recommendations were based on what I understood the person's intentions to be, and based on things they said in their message. As for Python, yes, I have changed my mind. My prior comments were based on my limited experience with the language. Plus there were certainly personal biases involved. However, I will be the first to say I was wrong about Python being only useful for text games and script kiddies. Now, that I have began using it on a regular basis, see what it can do, I'm willing to be more open minded about the language and developing software with it. My personal favorite is still C++, but now that I have more experience with Python I'm willing to revise my opinion. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Philip, I'm not sure how I might have worded things better, but my comments in my news letter weren't intended to be a put down or to discredit BGT. What I was attempting to do is point out what limitations exist in BGT and point out that Open G3D is being written to address some of those specific limitations. That's not intended to say BGT is a bad tool, which it is not, but that Open G3D will have some features lacking in BGT. For example, open source verses a commercial engine. BGT is a commercial product, and that's fine. However, because it is a commercial product, is closed source, I can't just download the source code for the engine and rewrite the code for input, audio, networking, etc so BGT could be compiled on Linux. I suspect 99% of your customers don't care about that, but it is still a limitation inherent in commercial closed source products because the developer pays for the software but can not modify it if and when they want to. With Open G3D by making it open source I hope to promote the development of more cross-platform games, and it also offers the ability for the end user to modify the engine itself as needed. If a developer wants to write a wrapper for FMOD Ex and use that for 3d audio instead of Pygame Mixer he or she can do it. If a developer would rather use PySFML instead of Pygame all they have to do is rewrite the appropriate modules. Its not a case of it being better or worse than BGT, but taking a more open source approach to the design and how that might benefit the developer. One way it benefits the developer is cost. If someone wants to write free games with BGT they can either redistribute their *.bgt scripts for free or pay $29.95 to compile them. Since I'm taking an open source approach and tools like py2exe and pyinstaller are free they can bundle their games into an executable for free. That's not saying BGT isn't fairly priced, but why pay $29 if there is an open source product that offers similar features? Another way it benefits end users is everything will be available to them. I believe BGT requires a Pro license for joystick support. Well, when I add that to the Open G3D engine it is going to be present regardless of free or commercial use. Maybe that doesn't matter to some developers, but it might matter to someone else. Cheers! On 4/1/2012 2:31 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi Thomas, What you say makes sense. I realize that cross platform support is important to you personally, I have just been getting the impression that you have been attempting to somehow discredit the general usefulness of the engine on this basis alone. Your last newsletter for instance has many such remarks that, to me, were quite unnecessary in terms of the tone. I realize that it may not have been meant that way, but it gives me the impression that you felt it necessary to paint BGT in a rather negative light in order to stress the importance of your own product. Then this message came on top of that last night and so I wanted to say something. The fact that BGT is recommended is, of course, something that I'm personally very happy about but it should not hinder you in any way from making a competing product with cross platform support and then letting people decide what to use. I will be the first to say that BGT is not suitable if you want support for Linux, Mac or mobile devices, but the fact remains that Windows still has the absolute majority of the blind market. What I'm saying is, I'm sure we can develop our engines simultaneously and help one another by recommending our respective products to users depending on their requirements, rather than work against one another and try to bring the other package down on whatever grounds. I for one think that it is a great initiative that you're taking with your engine, and will not hesitate to recommend it to people should cross platform be an important factor for them. And this is despite the fact that we're competing! Smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, These things are certainly true, but that was not what I was taking issue with. My question was more along the lines of, why must you target BGT specifically? Why can you not simply say that this engine offers this and this feature, open source being considered a feature in this case, and then let the users do the comparison based on what they consider important? The end result when you write something like that newsletter becomes, at least in my eyes, a side by side list saying why your engine is superior. This is marketing, of course, but I think it would be just as effective just to point out the advantages that you see with your engine without putting other things down. It is possible to mention advantages without mentioning specific products that you want to beat, as it were. It's not really necessary as far as I'm concerned. You say that you are frustrated that BGT is being mentioned whenever someone is asking about developing audio games. Could this be because of merit? It sounds, forgive me for saying so, like a case of envy when viewed in that light. To take an example. When I put out the Perilous Hearts concept demo, I stressed the things that I thought made it worth playing. I could easily have done a side by side comparison with Mota, and pointed out things I didn't like about Mota and stated why my game does this or that in a better way. I chose not to do this because it doesn't really add to the effectiveness of my sales pitch, and it would be negative for you as a fellow game designer in such a small community. This is what I'm getting at. It's really not a question of what either of our engines can or cannot do, but rather how these things are presented. Naturally one does have to make direct comparisons sometimes, but I feel personally that this went a bit over the top especially considering the message from yesterday on top. I would like to just coexist peacefully without arguing who's engine is the best. That's up to the users. Make them aware of the features, cross platform or not, networking or not, etc etc and then let them determine what they want. I would be very surprised if people were not aware that there are other options besides BGT, so I don't think this has to be stressed any further as it is just common sense. No need to point out flaws in other products in order to accomplish ones own success, in such a small community as ours. That's really all I'm saying. I hope it makes sense. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Philip, I'm not sure how I might have worded things better, but my comments in my news letter weren't intended to be a put down or to discredit BGT. What I was attempting to do is point out what limitations exist in BGT and point out that Open G3D is being written to address some of those specific limitations. That's not intended to say BGT is a bad tool, which it is not, but that Open G3D will have some features lacking in BGT. For example, open source verses a commercial engine. BGT is a commercial product, and that's fine. However, because it is a commercial product, is closed source, I can't just download the source code for the engine and rewrite the code for input, audio, networking, etc so BGT could be compiled on Linux. I suspect 99% of your customers don't care about that, but it is still a limitation inherent in commercial closed source products because the developer pays for the software but can not modify it if and when they want to. With Open G3D by making it open source I hope to promote the development of more cross-platform games, and it also offers the ability for the end user to modify the engine itself as needed. If a developer wants to write a wrapper for FMOD Ex and use that for 3d audio instead of Pygame Mixer he or she can do it. If a developer would rather use PySFML instead of Pygame all they have to do is rewrite the appropriate modules. Its not a case of it being better or worse than BGT, but taking a more open source approach to the design and how that might benefit the developer. One way it benefits the developer is cost. If someone wants to write free games with BGT they can either redistribute their *.bgt scripts for free or pay $29.95 to compile them. Since I'm taking an open source approach and tools like py2exe and pyinstaller are free they can bundle their games into an executable for free. That's not saying BGT isn't fairly priced, but why pay $29 if there is an open source product that offers similar features? Another way it benefits end users is everything will be available to them. I believe BGT requires a Pro license for joystick support. Well, when I add that to the Open G3D engine it is going to be present regardless of free or commercial use
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:37 AM, Trouble wrote: Well Ryan is not far off on his thoughts for platform. If you would think a moment. Just where do the majority of the blind or disabled get there computer/ The go to the government and orgs. Witch have contracts with FS and that means windows based computers. Not many orgs want to go against contract and get a Mac from Apple. Just because cross platform sounds nice, it's not practical think in the blind community. There are still only a handful that run Mac or linix. Those are mostly thought of as private ventures. That is why support for linix stuff is not really that good for us disabled. Yes, your going to say it is, but in reality it is being left behind and broken with every build. When doing programming for the mas community. You have to look at the reality and not what is fantasy only the game goes that rout. At 11:27 PM 3/31/2012, you wrote: Hi Ryan, Well, that is debatible, and to be honest is a bit bias. What I mean by that is you are assuming that everyone uses Windows and that Mac OS and Linux users aren't included in this discussion. As I recall the initial message asked what language or languages would be good for writing games for Mac, Linux, mobile devices, etc and BGT doesn't remotely cover that aspect of his message. While I will agree that BGT is a nice tool it is not the be all and end all of accessible game development. Cheers! On 3/31/2012 5:44 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: I completely echo this sentiment. BGT has a lot of great features that would cover anything you want to accomplish in terms of creating an audio game. Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Philip, Yeah, I see. You have a good point there. I didn't really think about it that way, but you are right. I could have just stated features x, y, and z and left it at that rather than comparing it to BGT. I certainly understand your opinion, and why you feel like I was criticizing BGT. Next time I'll be more mindful of this, and attempt to just stick to features x, y, and z without attempting to compare a product of mine to someone else's product. As you say most people can do that themselves by downloading and trying each product and find out what they personally liked or disliked. Obviously, I'm excited about the new project, and I suppose I went a bit over the top. There are a lot of little things I like about my new engine. While I generally prefer C or C++ I'm growing to like Python more and more because it is quick, simple, and allows me to just do something without a lot of unecessary overhead. In a way the new engine is like BGT in that all the core modules are compiled, but are wrapped with a very quick and simple scripting language that allows me to get things done quicker and easier than I ever could in C++. In addition, I've actually redesigned some aspects of the engine from scratch to simplify them for myself as well as new programmers that never occured to me before. For example, in the Genesis engine, the one written in C++, I have a header file called serface.h which has several surface constants like dirt, snow, water, mud, stone, etc. While it is a pretty comprehensive list I'm still finding I have to add to that list of constants because as I write more games I need more customized surfaces. Well, I've totally simplified this in Open G3D. Instead of passing a constant variable like SURFACE_STONE I can just pass a string like stone which is far simpler than defining several constant variables. Its totally flexable because I can use a string of text to identify doors, walls, surfaces, etc which is not restricted to some predefined constants. I like it, and I'm strongly considering modifying the C++ version of the engine to adopt some of these new changes. Cheers! On 4/1/2012 7:24 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi Thomas, These things are certainly true, but that was not what I was taking issue with. My question was more along the lines of, why must you target BGT specifically? Why can you not simply say that this engine offers this and this feature, open source being considered a feature in this case, and then let the users do the comparison based on what they consider important? The end result when you write something like that newsletter becomes, at least in my eyes, a side by side list saying why your engine is superior. This is marketing, of course, but I think it would be just as effective just to point out the advantages that you see with your engine without putting other things down. It is possible to mention advantages without mentioning specific products that you want to beat, as it were. It's not really necessary as far as I'm concerned. You say that you are frustrated that BGT is being mentioned whenever someone is asking about developing audio games. Could this be because of merit? It sounds, forgive me for saying so, like a case of envy when viewed in that light. To take an example. When I put out the Perilous Hearts concept demo, I stressed the things that I thought made it worth playing. I could easily have done a side by side comparison with Mota, and pointed out things I didn't like about Mota and stated why my game does this or that in a better way. I chose not to do this because it doesn't really add to the effectiveness of my sales pitch, and it would be negative for you as a fellow game designer in such a small community. This is what I'm getting at. It's really not a question of what either of our engines can or cannot do, but rather how these things are presented. Naturally one does have to make direct comparisons sometimes, but I feel personally that this went a bit over the top especially considering the message from yesterday on top. I would like to just coexist peacefully without arguing who's engine is the best. That's up to the users. Make them aware of the features, cross platform or not, networking or not, etc etc and then let them determine what they want. I would be very surprised if people were not aware that there are other options besides BGT, so I don't think this has to be stressed any further as it is just common sense. No need to point out flaws in other products in order to accomplish ones own success, in such a small community as ours. That's really all I'm saying. I hope it makes sense. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Philip, I'm
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, yes, as of right now, not including some members I've not approved yet, we have 1238 people on VIPhone which is the iOS users' list. So yes, there is most definitely a thriving community here and mine is just one list! :) So I'd honestly encourage anyone who has thought of developing for iOS to get a Mac of some kind, an iOS device and start coding with Objective C! :) There's totally a market for it! People really want more games that are not only accessible, but that are creative in their accessibility. I.E. There are already many games which are accessible on iOS, but really taking the idea of audio games and running with it to bring a richer audio experience as many audio game developers for Windows are used to doing would be fabulous for the iDevices. Furthermore, there is actually also even a sighted market for audio games on the iDevices which you really don't see on the PC / Mac. Anyway, very interesting topic indeed. I do hope people here will start realizing this market is not only improving but is actually exploding over night. -Seriously… anyway, have a terrific night!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 1, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Cara, Wow! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware the Mac and iOS community was that large either. However, I do know where you are coming from though. The Linux community is often under rated here as well because I've gotten to know people over on the Orca List, the Speakup List, Emacspeak List, Ubuntu Accessibility List, etc and while there is a certain amount of overlap between lists the community does seem to be fairly large now. Especially, among foreign blind users that can't afford the price of Windows or Mac. Perhaps this opinion that there aren't enough Linux or Mac users around to make it worth a developer's time is simply because the people who say those things haven't spent time on lists where Mac and Linux users hang out. On 4/1/2012 9:35 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi trouble, I know your sentiments seem correct in your assertion about the amount of Windows gamers vs potential Mac / iOS etc gamers, but let me share something. Perhaps you already know I moderate two lists for visually impaired Mac / iOS users. On only one of those lists alone there are at least three times as many members as on this one. -And, we're getting about 10 to 20 new members each week on each list… So to say that there is only a hand full of potential Mac / iOS gamers is not quite right. :) -Know what I mean?… Thanks, and have an awesome evening!… Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
I didn't put it on the site? Wow, I'll have to do some updating! I'll let you know when I have it up. - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming I don't see it there. I'm sorry. On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You can get Heli from www.thePionEar.net HTH - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming I usually don't like doing this, but I will. First, where can I get your helicopter sim? I miss flying my little helicopters. Also, though I know this has been asked before, and I don't really like revisiting, but I'm fairly confused, because there's so many out there. What is the best programming language out there. What language meets the following needs the best: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. Able to be used for network communications. Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] diffferent types of games was RE: USA Games News Lol yep I'm still around, I've just been busy so these days I find myself reading more posts than I'm writing. The types of games have always been possible, but I think the ideas just weren't floating around as much as they are now. For example, if in 5 years some brand new game idea is thought up, it could have been programmed right now if anyone had thought of it sooner. Programmer ability also comes in to play since sometimes an idea is already out there but people just don't have the necessary skills to create it. I would imagine that no matter what kind of engines or tools are made available, if a person doesn't know enough about programming they still aren't going to be able to create what they want to create. It makes me a bit sad to see how often new programmers try to skip the process of making little practice games. By trying to skip in to working on some amazing project idea, they are setting themselves up for failure and in the end haven't grown their skills at all. I firmly believe that people get things backwards. They come up with an idea and then hope they can figure out how to make it when instead they should be listing everything they know how to do, and then figuring out what kind of game can be made with those pieces. This ensures that they won't get stuck halfway through in a project that's way over their head, and in the process they get in practice to grow in skill for the next project. Hi jeramy. Nice
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Dakotah, Q: What is the best programming language out there? What language meets the following needs the best? A: Well, Its not a matter of any certain language being the best but more weather it fulfills your personal requirements. Ask ten different programmers which they personally think is the best you'll get ten different answers so I don't think there is any such thing as a best programming language per say, but I'll attempt to give you some advice based on your criteria below. Q: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. A: I don't know of any modern programming languages that use numbered lines. That was a feature of Apple Basic, and is of no use to us. However, most languages like C, C++, Java, C#.Net, and Visual Basic.Net don't require any kind of code formatting such as line indentions and special spacing. Although,it is a good idea to do so if you intend to share your source code with a sighted developer. Q: Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. A: Two languages come to mind here. One is Microsoft C#, calledC-Sharp, because those apps will run on any platform that has a compatible .Net Framework installed. Currently you can target Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 using the Microsoft .Net Framework, you can target Windows mobile devices using the .Net Compact Framework, and target Mac OS and Linux via the Mono Framework. So even though C# is technically a Microsoft creation its not as proprietary as say Visual Basic as C#.Net has wide spread use out side of the Windows environment. The other option you can look at here is Java. Recently its been acquired by Oricle, but there are runtime environments available for Windows, Mac, Linux, and there are custom frameworks available for Android and a number of other platforms. As a result Java can be very portable across platforms if developed correctly. Q: Able to be used for network communications. A: Networking applications is not handled by a programming language but the APIs, the libraries, available for that language. Almost every programming language in existance can do this. There are often multiple options for programmers to do the same thing. For example, if I were developing a game in C# using SDL for input, audio, and networking I would use a library called sdl-net.dll to communicate between versions of the game on Mac,Linux, and Windows. The same library, sdl-net.dll, is used in Python's Pygame, in SDL.Net for C#, JSDL for Java, etc so its not the language but the API that is responcible for networking applications. Q: Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. A: Well, that is a trickier issue. If we are talking about Windows platforms you can access Jaws, Window-Eyes, Sapi, etc through a Com based interface which many Windows APIs support. However, since Mac and Linux use different APIs and there is no such thing as Com on those platforms it becomes more difficult to support speech systems. As far as I know there currently isn't any way to do this with C#.Net on non-Windows platforms. For Java programmers the only universl way to support speech on multiple platforms is by using the FreeTTS synth which sounds like Robbie the Robot on drugs. However, QuentinC is working on a speech library to allow Java developers to use screen readers as well as Sapi support on Windows. In the end the only way to really support multiple speech systems, especially if we want to include non-Windows speech systems, is by using C++. With C++ you can build your own custom libraries to wrap Jaws, Window-Eyes, SuperNova, SystemAccess, Speech-Dispatcher, and so on. That is the only way to support everything you might want to use. Q: Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. A: Yes and no. It all depends on what APIs you use. By default Java programmers use an API called Swing for creating graphical user interfaces. This is not very accessible to screen readers, and the Java Access Bridge for Swing apps isn't being maintained. This is what gives Java such a bad name, but certainly isn't a developer's one and only choice. The Eclipse IDE for Java comes with an alternative toolkit called SWT. SWT is very accessible. How it works is its a wrapper for the operating systems native graphics toolkit rendering the applications accessible to your screen reader. If you build your Java app using SWT for Windows it will default to the Win32 API and Jaws, Window-Eyes, NVDA etc does not need the bridge because your Java app is using standard controls. If you write your Java app for Linux and compile using SWT for Linux you can use GTK+ which works well with Orca. On Mac OS SWT uses a
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Ken, Well, I for one will whole heartedly agree there is nothing quite like getting your little paws on some source code and playing around with it. Even though I took professional courses on programming that didn't give me any kind of practical experience. I did a fair amount of grabbing existing code and modifying it bit by bit to see what I could do with it myself. That's the only way to gain experience is by doing it. Cheers! On 3/30/2012 6:58 PM, Ken wrote: I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hello Dakotah, Another option, if you are looking at audio games exclusively, is BGT. It fulfills all the criteria you specified. It only runs on Windows, but has been confirmed to work well on Xp, Vista, 7 and 8 both on 32 and 64 bit architectures. It has facilities for sound, speech, networking, and a lot more. You can find it at: http://www.blastbay.com/bgt.php Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Dakotah, Q: What is the best programming language out there? What language meets the following needs the best? A: Well, Its not a matter of any certain language being the best but more weather it fulfills your personal requirements. Ask ten different programmers which they personally think is the best you'll get ten different answers so I don't think there is any such thing as a best programming language per say, but I'll attempt to give you some advice based on your criteria below. Q: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. A: I don't know of any modern programming languages that use numbered lines. That was a feature of Apple Basic, and is of no use to us. However, most languages like C, C++, Java, C#.Net, and Visual Basic.Net don't require any kind of code formatting such as line indentions and special spacing. Although,it is a good idea to do so if you intend to share your source code with a sighted developer. Q: Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. A: Two languages come to mind here. One is Microsoft C#, calledC-Sharp, because those apps will run on any platform that has a compatible .Net Framework installed. Currently you can target Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 using the Microsoft .Net Framework, you can target Windows mobile devices using the .Net Compact Framework, and target Mac OS and Linux via the Mono Framework. So even though C# is technically a Microsoft creation its not as proprietary as say Visual Basic as C#.Net has wide spread use out side of the Windows environment. The other option you can look at here is Java. Recently its been acquired by Oricle, but there are runtime environments available for Windows, Mac, Linux, and there are custom frameworks available for Android and a number of other platforms. As a result Java can be very portable across platforms if developed correctly. Q: Able to be used for network communications. A: Networking applications is not handled by a programming language but the APIs, the libraries, available for that language. Almost every programming language in existance can do this. There are often multiple options for programmers to do the same thing. For example, if I were developing a game in C# using SDL for input, audio, and networking I would use a library called sdl-net.dll to communicate between versions of the game on Mac,Linux, and Windows. The same library, sdl-net.dll, is used in Python's Pygame, in SDL.Net for C#, JSDL for Java, etc so its not the language but the API that is responcible for networking applications. Q: Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. A: Well, that is a trickier issue. If we are talking about Windows platforms you can access Jaws, Window-Eyes, Sapi, etc through a Com based interface which many Windows APIs support. However, since Mac and Linux use different APIs and there is no such thing as Com on those platforms it becomes more difficult to support speech systems. As far as I know there currently isn't any way to do this with C#.Net on non-Windows platforms. For Java programmers the only universl way to support speech on multiple platforms is by using the FreeTTS synth which sounds like Robbie the Robot on drugs. However, QuentinC is working on a speech library to allow Java developers to use screen readers as well as Sapi support on Windows. In the end the only way to really support multiple speech systems, especially if we want to include non-Windows speech systems, is by using C++. With C++ you can build your own custom libraries to wrap Jaws, Window-Eyes, SuperNova, SystemAccess, Speech-Dispatcher, and so on. That is the only way to support everything you might want to use. Q: Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. A: Yes and no. It all depends on what APIs you use. By default Java programmers use an API called Swing for creating graphical user interfaces. This is not very accessible to screen readers, and the Java Access Bridge for Swing apps isn't being maintained. This is what gives Java such a bad name, but certainly isn't a developer's one and only choice. The Eclipse IDE
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
I completely echo this sentiment. BGT has a lot of great features that would cover anything you want to accomplish in terms of creating an audio game. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 3:58 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hello Dakotah, Another option, if you are looking at audio games exclusively, is BGT. It fulfills all the criteria you specified. It only runs on Windows, but has been confirmed to work well on Xp, Vista, 7 and 8 both on 32 and 64 bit architectures. It has facilities for sound, speech, networking, and a lot more. You can find it at: http://www.blastbay.com/bgt.php Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Philip, I think he was interested in a more cross-platform friendly solution as he specifically mentioned that in his initial post. Therefore BGT, as good as it is, wouldn't fulfill this requirement. Cheers! On 3/31/2012 4:58 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hello Dakotah, Another option, if you are looking at audio games exclusively, is BGT. It fulfills all the criteria you specified. It only runs on Windows, but has been confirmed to work well on Xp, Vista, 7 and 8 both on 32 and 64 bit architectures. It has facilities for sound, speech, networking, and a lot more. You can find it at: http://www.blastbay.com/bgt.php Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Ryan, Well, that is debatible, and to be honest is a bit bias. What I mean by that is you are assuming that everyone uses Windows and that Mac OS and Linux users aren't included in this discussion. As I recall the initial message asked what language or languages would be good for writing games for Mac, Linux, mobile devices, etc and BGT doesn't remotely cover that aspect of his message. While I will agree that BGT is a nice tool it is not the be all and end all of accessible game development. Cheers! On 3/31/2012 5:44 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: I completely echo this sentiment. BGT has a lot of great features that would cover anything you want to accomplish in terms of creating an audio game. Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
Hi Thomas, The quote I read was: Q: Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. I took this to mean that the main interest was Windows, and perhaps others as well. Therefore whether BGT is valid or not depends on how important the cross platform aspect is for him. As for BGT being the only audio games solution, I do not believe that Ryan in any way suggested this. As for being bias, I don't think one could say that you are completely objective in this regard either since you have your own engine related projects in development. I must be honest and say that I do not really like the picture that you paint where anyone, Ryan or myself or whoever else, is apparently claiming that BGT is the be all and end all solution. This was not said, and is not true. I merely pointed out that, as far as I could see, BGT may be a good solution based on the requirements and Ryan agreed. Whether the original poster agrees with this and chooses to investigate one option rather than another is totally up to him. I am a great admirer of the work you do Thomas, but it seems to me as though you were suggesting that people who use or like BGT are bias or promoting some ultimit and flawless alternative that fits all. This is definitely not the case, and I take issue with that. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming Hi Philip, I think he was interested in a more cross-platform friendly solution as he specifically mentioned that in his initial post. Therefore BGT, as good as it is, wouldn't fulfill this requirement. Cheers! On 3/31/2012 4:58 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hello Dakotah, Another option, if you are looking at audio games exclusively, is BGT. It fulfills all the criteria you specified. It only runs on Windows, but has been confirmed to work well on Xp, Vista, 7 and 8 both on 32 and 64 bit architectures. It has facilities for sound, speech, networking, and a lot more. You can find it at: http://www.blastbay.com/bgt.php Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] tips on programming
I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] diffferent types of games was RE: USA Games News Lol yep I'm still around, I've just been busy so these days I find myself reading more posts than I'm writing. The types of games have always been possible, but I think the ideas just weren't floating around as much as they are now. For example, if in 5 years some brand new game idea is thought up, it could have been programmed right now if anyone had thought of it sooner. Programmer ability also comes in to play since sometimes an idea is already out there but people just don't have the necessary skills to create it. I would imagine that no matter what kind of engines or tools are made available, if a person doesn't know enough about programming they still aren't going to be able to create what they want to create. It makes me a bit sad to see how often new programmers try to skip the process of making little practice games. By trying to skip in to working on some amazing project idea, they are setting themselves up for failure and in the end haven't grown their skills at all. I firmly believe that people get things backwards. They come up with an idea and then hope they can figure out how to make it when instead they should be listing everything they know how to do, and then figuring out what kind of game can be made with those pieces. This ensures that they won't get stuck halfway through in a project that's way over their head, and in the process they get in practice to grow in skill for the next project. Hi jeramy. Nice to see you still posting. I only asked because it's only been recently that the types of games that are available have grown in type. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
I usually don't like doing this, but I will. First, where can I get your helicopter sim? I miss flying my little helicopters. Also, though I know this has been asked before, and I don't really like revisiting, but I'm fairly confused, because there's so many out there. What is the best programming language out there. What language meets the following needs the best: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. Able to be used for network communications. Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] diffferent types of games was RE: USA Games News Lol yep I'm still around, I've just been busy so these days I find myself reading more posts than I'm writing. The types of games have always been possible, but I think the ideas just weren't floating around as much as they are now. For example, if in 5 years some brand new game idea is thought up, it could have been programmed right now if anyone had thought of it sooner. Programmer ability also comes in to play since sometimes an idea is already out there but people just don't have the necessary skills to create it. I would imagine that no matter what kind of engines or tools are made available, if a person doesn't know enough about programming they still aren't going to be able to create what they want to create. It makes me a bit sad to see how often new programmers try to skip the process of making little practice games. By trying to skip in to working on some amazing project idea, they are setting themselves up for failure and in the end haven't grown their skills at all. I firmly believe that people get things backwards. They come up with an idea and then hope they can figure out how to make it when instead they should be listing everything they know how to do, and then figuring out what kind of game can be made with those pieces. This ensures that they won't get stuck halfway through in a project that's way over their head, and in the process they get in practice to grow in skill for the next project. Hi jeramy. Nice to see you still posting. I only asked because it's only been recently that the types of games that are available have grown in type. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
You can get Heli from www.thePionEar.net HTH - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming I usually don't like doing this, but I will. First, where can I get your helicopter sim? I miss flying my little helicopters. Also, though I know this has been asked before, and I don't really like revisiting, but I'm fairly confused, because there's so many out there. What is the best programming language out there. What language meets the following needs the best: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. Able to be used for network communications. Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] diffferent types of games was RE: USA Games News Lol yep I'm still around, I've just been busy so these days I find myself reading more posts than I'm writing. The types of games have always been possible, but I think the ideas just weren't floating around as much as they are now. For example, if in 5 years some brand new game idea is thought up, it could have been programmed right now if anyone had thought of it sooner. Programmer ability also comes in to play since sometimes an idea is already out there but people just don't have the necessary skills to create it. I would imagine that no matter what kind of engines or tools are made available, if a person doesn't know enough about programming they still aren't going to be able to create what they want to create. It makes me a bit sad to see how often new programmers try to skip the process of making little practice games. By trying to skip in to working on some amazing project idea, they are setting themselves up for failure and in the end haven't grown their skills at all. I firmly believe that people get things backwards. They come up with an idea and then hope they can figure out how to make it when instead they should be listing everything they know how to do, and then figuring out what kind of game can be made with those pieces. This ensures that they won't get stuck halfway through in a project that's way over their head, and in the process they get in practice to grow in skill for the next project. Hi jeramy. Nice to see you still posting. I only asked because it's only been recently that the types of games that are available have grown in type. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming
I don't see it there. I'm sorry. On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You can get Heli from www.thePionEar.net HTH - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] tips on programming I usually don't like doing this, but I will. First, where can I get your helicopter sim? I miss flying my little helicopters. Also, though I know this has been asked before, and I don't really like revisiting, but I'm fairly confused, because there's so many out there. What is the best programming language out there. What language meets the following needs the best: Sourcecode written in a format using numbered lines or at least not relying on spacing, as that can grow difficult to track. Able to be played on a wide variety of versions of Windows and perhaps other Operating Systems, including for Mac and possibly for mobile devices. Able to be used for network communications. Able to support Speech Application Interfaces of one or more types. Right now, I'm considering learning Java, but I've heard that that language presents difficulties concerning accessibility. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 3/30/12, Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: I agree, Jeremy. What I did, since though I knew QBasic I didnt know VB at all, was to simply start modifying an open-source game, Chopper Patrol. Little by little, I modified it, and voila--Enemy Attack was born. Soon after that, I had to start from scratch. I wanted a whole new style of game, a pinball/breakout kind of thing, so I began work on Wrecking Ball. Imagine my joy when I could simply copy over the directX modules, and only had to change the names of the sounds. Then I had to start from scratch again. I discovered another variant of Basic, called Basic4ppc. I wanted to learn that language because games I programmed on it could run on my Pac Mate, and I wanted to make games that would work with the display. I made a game I never published called Infinite Reactions. After that, I made Phrase Madness. Then, I started from scratch again. I went back to VB6 because Basic4PPC can't do 3d audio, and I wanted to make a toy helicopter sim. Well, I had to scour the net for some viable 3d audio code, and once I found it I could simply modify it, change it little by little to what I wanted. Therefore, if one of you gamers wonder whether you can program, get an open-source game and have a look at it. If you understand its elements, you can start changing things about it, and soon you have a whole new game. I also experimented with the GMA engine, and wrote some games with that, but lost my old computer before I could publish them. Its best feature was, for me, the map maker. Since I want more levels for Heli, it's about time I write one of my own. I feel like Im reinventing the wheel, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I guess, lol. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] diffferent types of games was RE: USA Games News Lol yep I'm still around, I've just been busy so these days I find myself reading more posts than I'm writing. The types of games have always been possible, but I think the ideas just weren't floating around as much as they are now. For example, if in 5 years some brand new game idea is thought up, it could have been programmed right now if anyone had thought of it sooner. Programmer ability also comes in to play since sometimes an idea is already out there but people just don't have the necessary skills to create it. I would imagine that no matter what kind of engines or tools are made available, if a person doesn't know enough about programming they still aren't going to be able to create what they want to create. It makes me a bit sad to see how often new programmers try to skip the process of making little practice games. By trying to skip in to working on some amazing project idea, they are setting themselves up for failure and in the end haven't grown their skills at all. I firmly believe that people get things backwards. They come up with an idea and then hope they can figure out how to make it when instead they should be listing everything they know how to do, and then figuring out what kind of game can be made with those pieces. This ensures that they won't get stuck halfway through in a project that's way over their head, and in the process they get in practice to grow in skill for the next project. Hi jeramy. Nice to see you still posting. I only asked because it's only been recently that the types of games that are available have grown in type. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
