Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
I was just going to say... this discussion has probably run its course. As friends must do, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. But before we wrap up... here's my question. If you were to make a fighting game that was purely audio-based, what would you add? Besides speaking menus and having more than the usual things voiced, that is? How would you add sounds detail to a game to help the totally blind, but make it subtle enough not to ruin the atmosphere of a game? - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi. I'm afraid we are probably at an empass here. I myself just feel that however good you are, the larning curve is just far steeper for a blind person that a sighted person, simply because you lack all relevant information, and until! that information is present in the game, from the company who make it, not in a faq, then a game won't count as accessible, --- playable yes, maybe even playable without too much trouble, but not accessible the way a game you can play with your screen reader is accessible. that is why games like Soul Calibur won't be getting pages on audiogames.net unless they have at least speaking menues, speaking movelists and tutorials, and possibly even some set of sound effects to indicate as much about character position in sound as a sighted player gets in graphics. as I said this isn't to say it can't! be done, only that it's far more trouble. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi. I'm afraid we are probably at an empass here. I myself just feel that however good you are, the larning curve is just far steeper for a blind person that a sighted person, simply because you lack all relevant information, and until! that information is present in the game, from the company who make it, not in a faq, then a game won't count as accessible, --- playable yes, maybe even playable without too much trouble, but not accessible the way a game you can play with your screen reader is accessible. that is why games like Soul Calibur won't be getting pages on audiogames.net unless they have at least speaking menues, speaking movelists and tutorials, and possibly even some set of sound effects to indicate as much about character position in sound as a sighted player gets in graphics. as I said this isn't to say it can't! be done, only that it's far more trouble. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Sorry again forthe double post, but I do have to agree that tutorials, while possibly an issue, aren't really necessary... and as to having no idea what's going on, in most fighting games... that isn't a problem when the name of the move is being shouted so loud. Gotta love anime for that. hahaha - Original Message - From: "Shadow Dragon" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Not always. In fact, not at all in most of the older games. In older games that's exactly why there were FAQ's, because you either had to buy a separate strategy guide in addition to the game, or do a ton of experimentation. In the newer games they often include movelists, but they aren't always complete and they don't tell you how to string together some combos, or use juggling, etc. There's only one part of fighting games I think sighted people have better luck with than we do, and that's tutorials, where they show you how to do something and you're expected to repeat it exactly. Usually we can't do those unless the tutorial is voiced, but the tutorial usually isn't necessary either, though you might get a trophy or XBox achievement for completing it. Either way I still agree with clement, the only reason blind and sighted people in general have differing levels of proficiency in fighting games is because a lot of blind people refuse to even try them given preconceptions like this one. I've played and beaten many fighting games, more than I care to count, and I find them just as easy to pick up and play as most audiogames, if not easier in some cases, like bokurano daiboukenn. Though some of that was due to lack of translation. And I'm not even as into those types of games as some of the blind gamers. -- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
I will agree there. Though I disagree about knowledge of the game itself... the first day I picked up soul calibur five I brought it home, unpacked it, and leapt right into story mode... and knew half the moves already. Why? Because movelists float around the internet well before the game is released because of different builds with the game and usually reflect the latest build. As for it taking longer to reach a level of skill, the only thing worth comparing here is memorization of options. And so long as you can jump into a mode and play the first time you get a game, everything else can be learned later. I can tell you for sure that I know at least half the mechanics in the game Street fighter x tekken, and that game isn't coming out for another month or so. And one thing that will make the games slightly more accessible? The characters will be announced as you scroll through the character selection screen. So in the memorization department I agree with you. But as to skill at the actual game... one does not need to take longer just because they're blind. I bought SC 5 the first day, had a few friends come over, and beat them all despite them having read the command lists from top to bottom. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Clemment. I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted people do not use faqs. i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user, from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring a certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same amount of time and trouble taken by a blind user. this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene the groups. for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you can do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read them. A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A sighted user has all that information instantly available. this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind user as a sighted user. What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point. Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by sound. Bewre the grue! #dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Not always. In fact, not at all in most of the older games. In older games that's exactly why there were FAQ's, because you either had to buy a separate strategy guide in addition to the game, or do a ton of experimentation. In the newer games they often include movelists, but they aren't always complete and they don't tell you how to string together some combos, or use juggling, etc. There's only one part of fighting games I think sighted people have better luck with than we do, and that's tutorials, where they show you how to do something and you're expected to repeat it exactly. Usually we can't do those unless the tutorial is voiced, but the tutorial usually isn't necessary either, though you might get a trophy or XBox achievement for completing it. Either way I still agree with clement, the only reason blind and sighted people in general have differing levels of proficiency in fighting games is because a lot of blind people refuse to even try them given preconceptions like this one. I've played and beaten many fighting games, more than I care to count, and I find them just as easy to pick up and play as most audiogames, if not easier in some cases, like bokurano daiboukenn. Though some of that was due to lack of translation. And I'm not even as into those types of games as some of the blind gamers. -- From: "dark" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 02:37 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Clemment. I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted people do not use faqs. i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user, from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring a certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same amount of time and trouble taken by a blind user. this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene the groups. for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you can do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read them. A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A sighted user has all that information instantly available. this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind user as a sighted user. What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point. Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by sound. Bewre the grue! #dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Clemment. I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted people do not use faqs. i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user, from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring a certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same amount of time and trouble taken by a blind user. this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene the groups. for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you can do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read them. A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A sighted user has all that information instantly available. this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind user as a sighted user. What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point. Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by sound. Bewre the grue! #dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
But that's just it... it isn't any trouble. And you make it sound like we're the only ones who read faqs when in fact, we aren't. Sighted gamers, once again, do as much looking up as we do... this is why faqs are there. Command lists only give special moves and supers, they do not list combos or anything like that. Though I guess the trouble thing is a personal approach... I have no trouble at all with these games, and menus aren't a big deal... honest answer? I don't know half the menus of the games I play... I just need to memorize the options that I use. Though I will agree that sound complexity in an audio game does take resources. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi clemment. It might be that you have unusual spacial abilities, but I'm afraid I still disagree on the inequities of information. Obviously, it's something you can practice and improve at to the point where it is less trouble, but it is the fact that it's any trouble at all! that makes the difference to acess here, and that is of course not counting things like learning menues, looking up and reading faqs to tell you the moves in a new game and the text of combos etc. As to game design you are right up to a point, but I'd also suggest that in matters like sound complexity (which was one you mentioned), resources make a huge difference. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi clemment. It might be that you have unusual spacial abilities, but I'm afraid I still disagree on the inequities of information. Obviously, it's something you can practice and improve at to the point where it is less trouble, but it is the fact that it's any trouble at all! that makes the difference to acess here, and that is of course not counting things like learning menues, looking up and reading faqs to tell you the moves in a new game and the text of combos etc. As to game design you are right up to a point, but I'd also suggest that in matters like sound complexity (which was one you mentioned), resources make a huge difference. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
No no, I do get your point. What I was merely pointing out is that it isn't nearly as hard as you seem to think it is. This isn't just all based on assumptions, this is based on what I hear from sighted players who I've talked to, ones who've accepted that I'm blind and still am a halfway decent player, and who I've discussed this issue with over and over again. You;d be surprised how many sighted people will constantly just stand there and mash out uppercuts which don't hit. And being in a corner is something anyone can figure out if they're keeping track of where the opponent is in relation to themselves and what the opponent is doing. If my opponent keeps trying to hit me with moves like fireballs that keep me in the same place I can also instantly tell that I'm in a corner. It's things like that which makes visual information unnecessary, and that's what I've heard from a few high-level players who I talk to. as to the work I put in. It honestly is not all that much. Despite playing mainstream games growing up, I took about a 5 year break from them and then seriously gotten back into them. They weren't very hard to pick up despite the fact that I forgot completely how to play them, since when I was younger all I did was more or less button mash and didn't pay attention to sound detail at all. I think we've had the discussion about reaction vs. Judgement based games before. Though I have to disagree about mainstream indi games being simpler than their bigger industrially produced counterparts... I played an indi game from Japan recently and it was a fighting game on the level of street fighter 3 third strike, which was produced by Capcom... and there are plenty of indi games on xbox live which are quite complex. Although, as you said, games like swamp do require some thinking, which is why I like them. But the fact is for most games there are just no ins and outs to work with. And however limitted resources you have, design is what it comes down to. I have several designs that I would like to put into fruition, and programming is the only thing stopping me. I have sounds that I would like to use, a story, etc. The only thing I lack is the ability to program said ideas. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi clemment. On the issue of information and practice, I'm afraid you've missed my point rather. My point is not that a blind person cannot! learn to do combos, get a feeling for distance etc, quite obviously people can. it is that lacking the visual information which is available on screen to sighted game players, this initial learning and acquisition of the skills is much harder and takes more effort, simply! because a blind person has far less access to the required information. a sighted player for instance would be very unlikely to cary on with the movements of a combo if they saw that the opponent was not close enough to be hit. a sighted player could instantly see when they were in the corner of a stage, and know that they had to escape or risk a corner trap, even if they'd never played that game before in their life, simply because of how the screen scrolls and where the edge of the stage was. while I don't doubt the work you've put in on beat em ups or the skills you've acquired, I'm afraid I am less sure of your ability to judge the relative ease of playing a game with a beat em up with! vision as opposed to without it, simply because it concerns a lot of information which you have not had direct experiencial access to. As I said, this is not a cryticism of your skills at the games or the work that you've done, sinse you've only ever had the one experience and not the other. as someone who plays from a low vision perspective, I perhaps do have a little more insite here, though even I imagine there are stil a great many factors about the visual experience of games I do not get myself. as to audio games, the simplicity factor is partly as we have said on list before, due to the resources that have been spent on creating the games, and indeed should the same mega millions ever be spent on developing an audio game that would probably not apply, just as pc indi graphical games are far simpler than their mainstream counterparts. The other reason though is that most audio games are what I have called in the past "reaction based" rather than "judgement based" ie, they simply rely upon you getting a certain sequence of events into your head and learning to react in one, and only one correct way to those events as soon as possible. here a ship, center it blow it up! rince and repeat. &quo
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Clement, you've just put into words something that's been on my mind for a while spacial awareness is a verylarge factor in modern fighting games especially now with the upgrades in sound. another example is in mk, i try to go the whole fight without using scorpion's spear as then it will help me get used to where the characters are on the screen without me having to rely on a move that brings them in close all the time. that's also another use for beginner mode, as it can help you gage hit distances based on where you are in relation to them. i'm not sure how useful that was, and i'm certainly not claiming to be a fighting game expert, far from it. just giving my current experience. now there's a use for mobility that I bet wasn't thought of by the instructures. :D On 2/7/12, Clement Chou wrote: > Funny, because I find those combos quite easy to do. While I agree that the > sound gives you less information that lets you keep track of your opponent, > you have to do that in your head. If I start a match, I keep in mind exactly > what movements I make and approximately how far I am from the opponent. I > very rarely do jump-in cmbos, but one of my favorites which always works is > with one of the SF 4 AE characters, Yun. It's a jumping dive kick, which if > not blocked is followed up with two crouching light kicks, a crouching jab, > a standing medium punch followed by a lunge punch. It always works, and it's > because I can adequately orientate myself and keep my mind focussed on where > I am on the screen. Once I've done that, move properties become > second-nature. You learn not to combo unless you're sure that's going to > hit, and if I'm going to do a combo, I can miss the first punch, but sighted > people do that as well... it's no loss, as long as I don't continue the > combo or try to. I know many people who would keep going with the sequence, > which just gives me time to attack them from a distance. A lot of blind > people tend to do that, and I think that's the solution to what your problem > seems to be... if you miss the first punch, be smart about it and block. > Wait til you're sure you can hit an opponent. This is where your mobility > skills can come in handy, since although you aren't walking yourself, you > can use that and calculate what movement options both characters are making. > Hear your opponent trying to jump in at you, maybe start a combo? Uppercut > them out of the air. If you're opponent is dashing in towards you, use a > throw and get yourself out of that corner or you're dead. These are basic > concepts that sighted people use all the time, and while there is more > information to be had if you're sighted, that information is needless... I > can figure that out all in my head. If I watch an SSF 4 match online from > youtube, I can commentate what is going on, almost perfectly because I know > what they're doing based on what I hear. That's how detailed modern fighting > games are. > As to audio games... yes, the sounds are very clear. However, as I keep > saying, they're almost too clear. And most audo games have very few ins and > outs to learn... which is the problem. Most of them are so simple, and > there's nothing to figure out on your own because the game explains > everything to you. Take something like judgement day. In modern mainstream > scrolling shooters like time crisis 4, 1942 Joint Strike, the enemy > properties are not explained... and the way one tells is by harsh experience > based on how the enemy looks. The same should be the case... the fact that > helicopters take more hits should be left for the player to find out as a > mainstream game would do it. Or, when the game is released, that is what an > Faq would be good for, and that's precisely why there are no walkthroughs > for most audio games.. because they're so simple that one really doesn't > need one. > - Original Message - > From: "dark" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii > game for the blind! > > >> Hi Clemment. >> >> I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd >> heard about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying >> them without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being >> >> identical to a blind person learning it's sound. >> >> When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's >> punch in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon. >> >> It would be pretty obvious to me if I'
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi clemment. On the issue of information and practice, I'm afraid you've missed my point rather. My point is not that a blind person cannot! learn to do combos, get a feeling for distance etc, quite obviously people can. it is that lacking the visual information which is available on screen to sighted game players, this initial learning and acquisition of the skills is much harder and takes more effort, simply! because a blind person has far less access to the required information. a sighted player for instance would be very unlikely to cary on with the movements of a combo if they saw that the opponent was not close enough to be hit. a sighted player could instantly see when they were in the corner of a stage, and know that they had to escape or risk a corner trap, even if they'd never played that game before in their life, simply because of how the screen scrolls and where the edge of the stage was. while I don't doubt the work you've put in on beat em ups or the skills you've acquired, I'm afraid I am less sure of your ability to judge the relative ease of playing a game with a beat em up with! vision as opposed to without it, simply because it concerns a lot of information which you have not had direct experiencial access to. As I said, this is not a cryticism of your skills at the games or the work that you've done, sinse you've only ever had the one experience and not the other. as someone who plays from a low vision perspective, I perhaps do have a little more insite here, though even I imagine there are stil a great many factors about the visual experience of games I do not get myself. as to audio games, the simplicity factor is partly as we have said on list before, due to the resources that have been spent on creating the games, and indeed should the same mega millions ever be spent on developing an audio game that would probably not apply, just as pc indi graphical games are far simpler than their mainstream counterparts. The other reason though is that most audio games are what I have called in the past "reaction based" rather than "judgement based" ie, they simply rely upon you getting a certain sequence of events into your head and learning to react in one, and only one correct way to those events as soon as possible. here a ship, center it blow it up! rince and repeat. "judgement based" games, such as most graphical games are, require you to actually learn about, experience and judge a set of factors and decide from a variety of actions which is the best thing to do in a given situation. what we need are audio games that follow the second model. I am however pleased to say that games like Swamp, castaways, time of conflict, the in developement tactical battle and even perilous hearts with it's judgement of animal distance and weapon selection deffinately seem to be heading that way, even if games in the past like superliam have not. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Funny, because I find those combos quite easy to do. While I agree that the sound gives you less information that lets you keep track of your opponent, you have to do that in your head. If I start a match, I keep in mind exactly what movements I make and approximately how far I am from the opponent. I very rarely do jump-in cmbos, but one of my favorites which always works is with one of the SF 4 AE characters, Yun. It's a jumping dive kick, which if not blocked is followed up with two crouching light kicks, a crouching jab, a standing medium punch followed by a lunge punch. It always works, and it's because I can adequately orientate myself and keep my mind focussed on where I am on the screen. Once I've done that, move properties become second-nature. You learn not to combo unless you're sure that's going to hit, and if I'm going to do a combo, I can miss the first punch, but sighted people do that as well... it's no loss, as long as I don't continue the combo or try to. I know many people who would keep going with the sequence, which just gives me time to attack them from a distance. A lot of blind people tend to do that, and I think that's the solution to what your problem seems to be... if you miss the first punch, be smart about it and block. Wait til you're sure you can hit an opponent. This is where your mobility skills can come in handy, since although you aren't walking yourself, you can use that and calculate what movement options both characters are making. Hear your opponent trying to jump in at you, maybe start a combo? Uppercut them out of the air. If you're opponent is dashing in towards you, use a throw and get yourself out of that corner or you're dead. These are basic concepts that sighted people use all the time, and while there is more information to be had if you're sighted, that information is needless... I can figure that out all in my head. If I watch an SSF 4 match online from youtube, I can commentate what is going on, almost perfectly because I know what they're doing based on what I hear. That's how detailed modern fighting games are. As to audio games... yes, the sounds are very clear. However, as I keep saying, they're almost too clear. And most audo games have very few ins and outs to learn... which is the problem. Most of them are so simple, and there's nothing to figure out on your own because the game explains everything to you. Take something like judgement day. In modern mainstream scrolling shooters like time crisis 4, 1942 Joint Strike, the enemy properties are not explained... and the way one tells is by harsh experience based on how the enemy looks. The same should be the case... the fact that helicopters take more hits should be left for the player to find out as a mainstream game would do it. Or, when the game is released, that is what an Faq would be good for, and that's precisely why there are no walkthroughs for most audio games.. because they're so simple that one really doesn't need one. - Original Message ----- From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Clemment. I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd heard about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying them without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being identical to a blind person learning it's sound. When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's punch in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon. It would be pretty obvious to me if I'd got the timing for the first punch wrong, sinse I'd see! that the opponent was too far away or too close. I'd be able to adjust my timing the next time I tried the combo, punch slightly earlier or later. This is because as you've said yourself, fighting games are not simply boppit style sequences of pressing buttons in a streight out rythm, but pressing buttons in accordance with the relative position of the two opponents on screen and what is happening with the engine, and it is easier access to that positional data, as well as knowing fairly instantly by looking what a move is supposed to do that makes the difference. yes, a sighted person still needs to practice when! a given move should be used, however this practice is made far easier by the fact that they have far more information to work with about the move itself when used, the relative positions of the characters etc. This is where audio games differ from mainstream games. in an audio game, all! in game information is presented only in an audio, and therefore accessible medium. You stil have to work to play the game, learn it's ins a
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Well Yohandi, such isn't my intention, and actually in a lot of philosophy books and essays where the structure of your sentences can make a huge difference to the quality of your argument, there are! indeed such markers to show emphasis, even if it's not done in works of fiction as much. so, while I'm sorry it annoys you, I'm afraid unless you can think of a way for me to more reasonably show verbal emphasis, I will carry on writing as I have been. all the best, dark. - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Dark, It's still very annoying. at least I find it so. When you read a book, you don't see the author getting their point across by putting tons of exclamations all over the place do you? I've never seen anyone do that so excessively. as to your Super Liam example. putting that exclamation point there isn't necessary. I think as intelligent human beings we can arrive at these conclusions without such emphasis on specific words. they only serve to irritate the reader, and probably cause people to take you less seriously. feels like you're trying to shove your ideals down our throats hahaha. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate. For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano. I would want to answer something like "that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game etc" See my point? There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to the verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only one I have is the exclamation mark. i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it this way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I can't unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, much less one which would be compatible with screen readers. Beware the grue! (who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely Gruelling!). Dark. I ----- Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Dark, I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is a shame, as your posts are always very informative. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Clement for that matter I agree. Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't equate to "don't do that thing" To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that sense it is not "aaccessible" Does that mean you shouldn't do it? hell no! It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble. That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent:
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Dark, It's still very annoying. at least I find it so. When you read a book, you don't see the author getting their point across by putting tons of exclamations all over the place do you? I've never seen anyone do that so excessively. as to your Super Liam example. putting that exclamation point there isn't necessary. I think as intelligent human beings we can arrive at these conclusions without such emphasis on specific words. they only serve to irritate the reader, and probably cause people to take you less seriously. feels like you're trying to shove your ideals down our throats hahaha. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate. For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano. I would want to answer something like "that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game etc" See my point? There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to the verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only one I have is the exclamation mark. i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it this way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I can't unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, much less one which would be compatible with screen readers. Beware the grue! (who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely Gruelling!). Dark. I - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Dark, I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is a shame, as your posts are always very informative. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 - Original Message ----- From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Clement for that matter I agree. Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't equate to "don't do that thing" To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that sense it is not "aaccessible" Does that mean you shouldn't do it? hell no! It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble. That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept. Beware the grue! Dark. ----- Original Message - From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-arch
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate. For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano. I would want to answer something like "that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game etc" See my point? There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to the verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only one I have is the exclamation mark. i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it this way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I can't unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, much less one which would be compatible with screen readers. Beware the grue! (who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely Gruelling!). Dark. I - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Dark, I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is a shame, as your posts are always very informative. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Clement for that matter I agree. Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't equate to "don't do that thing" To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that sense it is not "aaccessible" Does that mean you shouldn't do it? hell no! It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble. That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept. Beware the grue! Dark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Dark, I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is a shame, as your posts are always very informative. -- Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to sign up: http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1 - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Clement for that matter I agree. Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't equate to "don't do that thing" To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that sense it is not "aaccessible" Does that mean you shouldn't do it? hell no! It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble. That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Clement for that matter I agree. Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't equate to "don't do that thing" To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that sense it is not "aaccessible" Does that mean you shouldn't do it? hell no! It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble. That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Clemment. I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd heard about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying them without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being identical to a blind person learning it's sound. When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's punch in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon. It would be pretty obvious to me if I'd got the timing for the first punch wrong, sinse I'd see! that the opponent was too far away or too close. I'd be able to adjust my timing the next time I tried the combo, punch slightly earlier or later. This is because as you've said yourself, fighting games are not simply boppit style sequences of pressing buttons in a streight out rythm, but pressing buttons in accordance with the relative position of the two opponents on screen and what is happening with the engine, and it is easier access to that positional data, as well as knowing fairly instantly by looking what a move is supposed to do that makes the difference. yes, a sighted person still needs to practice when! a given move should be used, however this practice is made far easier by the fact that they have far more information to work with about the move itself when used, the relative positions of the characters etc. This is where audio games differ from mainstream games. in an audio game, all! in game information is presented only in an audio, and therefore accessible medium. You stil have to work to play the game, learn it's ins and outs etc, however all the information you need is there! in the game, the rest is practice. This is where mainstream games are lacking, sinse the information needed to play them is essentially visual in nature, and though sound can provide a guide to that information, it is at most a guide only, and not a true representation of that information. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
All good points, and I do agree. But what you have to realize is that sighted people need to memorize fighting game move properties just as well as we do. Why? Because by the time they see that move and process it, their character is eating a combo. The Massiah kick is a good example, however that can't be avoided. Faqs are used just as often by sighted gamers, remember, that's why they're there, to get to the specifics that command lists never touch on. I can tell you, both from reading faqs and from how often I play, that the move you're talking about is a ground kick. For the simple reason that when he does the kick, he never actually leaves the ground. And this is exactly why I like fighting games so much. We can play them with the same skill and ability as sighted gamers, because we use the same resources they do. Yes, you can see the move if you're sighted, but that doesn't mean much... if you don't know that move hits opponents out of the air, if you jump towards your opponent you'll still get whacked. In short, sighted people have to do just as much to memorize move properties, because you can't focus on the action itself if you're trying to think of what each move is. That's a ticket to losing, because you need to be able to know what the move is before you see the animation, which comes just at the same time the sound cue does. As someone who does martial arts, it's a valuable lesson which can also apply to fighting games. My teacher always says, don't think, move! Meaning that as you're going through a sword form, you should not think, but focus on the form you are performing and let your body take over, therefore the mind, sword, body as one. Same thing here. So the shouting out of move names is actually an advantage, especially since so many of the times the move is shouted out before the motion is complete and the move connects with your character. This is why fighting games are so great... because you can't just pick one up and instantly be good. You have to work, and do the exact same work sighted people have to do to get good. Because remember. They may see the move, but it doesn't help them if they don't know the properties of that move. And part of it is outsmarting your opponent. But that's another story. And that's part of the problem I find with audio games. Sounds should be obvious, but not as obvious as some games make them out to be. Sound in an audio game is so often too obvious it ruins the ambiance. In my personal opinion, they only need to be distinguishable enough to know what's there. bo,kura no daibouken is a great example... there's no targetting beeps, and the enemies all sound like what I would imagine them to be realistically if they were real. And that's part of the beauty of mainstream games... audio games give you so much detail, but all the properties are explained to you... there's no need to figure anything out. Mainstream games you honestly have to work to figure out the ins and outs. And I disagree with sound being an afterthought... street fighter has always had one sound for every single attack. You know that there are three kicks and three punches. Each of those sound radically different. Fireballs sound different depending on who throws them. An uppercut with flames sounds different than one without. I just don't see why if some mainstream blind gamers can figure them out, why others can't. The ability to do it is there, and I've won small tournaments in both street Fighter and MK 9. Nothing major, just things my friends and I set up. How do I beat them? By outsmarting them... fightin games are less about the mechanics than most people think. The menus don't matter. It's the controls themselves, your character, and how much screwing with the opponent's head you can do. And lastly, adventure modes and the like should not be the main focus of a fighting game... the main focus is on the fighting, preferably against human opponents. Not to say single player content isn't nice. Very few fighting games have menu-driven story modes. The only ones that do are usually ones that also suffer from stiff mechanics. SC 3, and all the mk games n the ps2 are all good examples. MK 9 finds a nice balance, but Blazblue should be the one that every fighting game should try and emulate. I appologize about my misinterpretation about yur point with Japanese. True, it's impossible for a blind gamer to learn how to read print just to navigate menus. However, have you considered import games? Tons of people import them from Japan, and most of us don't speak Japanese. So when it comes to that, sighted gamers are in the same positions as we are... and this is why I love import games. Because faqs for them always have menu translations! ----- Original Message -----
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
I'm afraid I do not agree there clemment. In a fighting game it is not just necessary to memorize ten or 15 sounds, but also know how those sounds correspond to specific moves. For instance take Rufus "Messiah kick!" in street fighter 4. Is it a ground kick or an air kick? what is it's level of attack? where and when should you block? It is not simply a matter of memorizing the phrase but of understand the properties of the move that phrase belongs to, which can only be done with a faq. With an audio game, you are told those properties exactly within the game, or indeed those properties become apparent from the game audio. For instance, when i first played Q9, I did not! listen to all the creature sounds, sinse I wanted a surprise. It was however obvious from the position audio what I was coming to and that these were things that needed hitting. "messiah kick" however does not reveal it's nature in audio, because the audio statement of it's name is only an after thought to a sighted player, they can instantly and without any shadow of doubt see! what nature of move it is. This is why the effort betwene a blind person and sighted person are not the same. In an audio game, sounds are chosen for their representative quality, up to and including the point that sounds are so representative they may not be necessary to explain, where as in a mainstream game sound is only a partial afterthought stuck in for effect. Then of course, considder that in an audio game when sound memorization is necessary, the sounds have been chosen! to be distinct enough to memorize. Look at Mortal Kombat deadly alliance when virtually every character had the same male or female voice actor, or even games like the soul calibur ones where some characters are played! by the same voice actor. then of course, lets not forget those 3d adventure modes, ridiculously menue heavy character creation and story modes, and all the other fun stuff that beat em ups come with these days. Though the arcade mode may be playable, what about the rest? I'm also afraid you did not understand my point about learning japanese. i do not despute the fact that learning japanese would be harder than learning a sighted game menue. I only stated that where as it would be physically possible! for an English language speaker to become equally proficient in Japanese to the point that the effort required betwene a Japanese speaker and an English speaker was the same, this is not true of Blind vs sighted gamers. A sighted gamer will always! be able to go through menues more quickly and easily than a blind person, however good atmemorization you are, simply because they! don't have to memorize anything whatsoever. That is why the bockerano debuken case is not really relevant to the disability arguement of mainstream games. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
The truth is, audio games do the exact same thing... and there are way more keys than in mainstream games. Key patterns are dependent on the character, which is why most people choose one they like and stay with them. That is why fighting games are probably the most competetive genre... because they're one of the most fun, yet serious genres. And as blind people, fighting games are mor or less 100% playable, since accessibility is not the word to be used, apparently... most of playing that type of game is mental, and strategy. Once you get that down, everything else is a cakewalk. - Original Message - From: "Trouble" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! After reading that info. I can only say that if you have to go through that much or more memorizing key patterns for each game or player. When does it become fun with that much of a learning curve? I don't mind reading a manual for a game. But when most of the feed back you get is a sound or nothing is not my thrill to games. i can grab those sounds and program them to play on my computer. Now to someone just listening. it would sound like game play, but its just sounds. At 04:25 PM 2/6/2012, you wrote: Hi clemment. Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing. On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them is quite telling" A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game, where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio. though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a sighted player. afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, then of course there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a move was without initial memorization. As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually, sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory, sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed only graphically that makes the difference in effort. so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed. Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use memorization can expend enough effort to get around this. You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken. Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a japanese speaker would have. Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play both could be equali
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
After reading that info. I can only say that if you have to go through that much or more memorizing key patterns for each game or player. When does it become fun with that much of a learning curve? I don't mind reading a manual for a game. But when most of the feed back you get is a sound or nothing is not my thrill to games. i can grab those sounds and program them to play on my computer. Now to someone just listening. it would sound like game play, but its just sounds. At 04:25 PM 2/6/2012, you wrote: Hi clemment. Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing. On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them is quite telling" A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game, where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio. though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a sighted player. afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, then of course there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a move was without initial memorization. As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually, sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory, sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed only graphically that makes the difference in effort. so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed. Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use memorization can expend enough effort to get around this. You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken. Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a japanese speaker would have. Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play both could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with bockerano debuken if more of the game could be translated, that probably won't be with mainstream games. Beware the grue! dark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker. Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean that is not accessible? I d
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
You forget that sound memorization is just as important in an audio game as a mianstream one. The only difference is that audio games will hold your hand the whole way through and explain each sound even though most of them are so obvious it isn't very hard to learn. Mainstream games are the same case, and anyone who has any ability to memorize and distinguish sounds should not have a problem with them. It's just that mainstream games have more subtle audio rather than the glaringly obvious sounds in Audio Games. Also, audio games require memorization of so many different commands, some would say that playing a fighting game is almost easier, because there is no need to memorize more than 10-15 keys, combos aside and those are basically sequences of those keys. As to Bokurano Daibouken, one may be able to learn Japanese, yes, but that is actually expending more effort than it would take to learn a sighted game's menu. Japanese, or any other language for that matter, takes years to study even to get a basic understanding. the only way you could lear nthe menus would be to find the vocab associated with it, and reading a list of menus is far faster, and is what one would do for a mainstream which means less effort. Also, sighted are the ones faqs are designed for. Fighting game players, since that's the genre most commonly brought up, will actually rarely use the command list other than the first time glance at the game. This is because there is a lot more to memorize such as move properties, frame data, etc. So in truth, sighted players sometimes actually have more to memorize... and what do you think people have to do for imported games? It all happens, so the effort is still the same at least in that regard. Menus still need to be learned. Whether we can get around print or not, is the effort not worth it? Are blind people spoiled with everything being self-voiced and not actually having to learn? Effort is part of the challenge of the game and should not be looked on as anything but that. And especially with mainstream games, again, what mainstream developers really would care? We make up less than 10% of their audience, and most anime fighting games do have voiced menus. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi clemment. Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing. On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them is quite telling" A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game, where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio. though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a sighted player. afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, then of course there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a move was without initial memorization. As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually, sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory, sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed only graphically that makes the difference in effort. so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inacces
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Shame no one thought of that before lol. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Clement Chou Sent: 06 February 2012 21:04 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker. Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced as you scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you are picking instead of finding out who you picked. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! > Hi Dan, fair enough. > > perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't > appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an > effort. > > Beware the grue! > > dark. > - > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the > list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi clemment. Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing. On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them is quite telling" A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game, where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio. though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a sighted player. afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, then of course there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a move was without initial memorization. As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually, sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory, sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed only graphically that makes the difference in effort. so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed. Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use memorization can expend enough effort to get around this. You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken. Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a japanese speaker would have. Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play both could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with bockerano debuken if more of the game could be translated, that probably won't be with mainstream games. Beware the grue! dark. ----- Original Message - From: "Clement Chou" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker. Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced as you scroll over the character selection
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker. Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced as you scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you are picking instead of finding out who you picked. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Dan, fair enough. perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an effort. Beware the grue! dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
I agree, that is what has stopped me buying a wii fulstop! there are in fact a hole bunch of low vision games, starting with the castlevania series, not to mention mega man battle network, that would be totally playable from a vision perspective but just have too much radnomly occurring menues and text that I cannot read. For instance, Though the mega man zero games have a hole bunch of different power ups (over 70 in the game), a ful mission mode and even dialogue scenes where you wander around and talk to different characters, , using a couple of faqs and a game script I was able to play them, sinse everything was the same each time you played, anjd all the gameplay was your stadnard mega man attack enemies which is low vision wise mostly fine. The later Castlevania games however have just as many items, however they occur entirely at random! so there is no way for me to tell what item I got, just because of stupid textual lables. Ditto with the game secret of mana on the Snes. Lack of text access in games really has a lot to answer for, even before you start considdering visual or auditory access to the gameplay elements themselves. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Dan, fair enough. perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an effort. Beware the grue! dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
sorry for the double mail, but heck i'd give anything not to have to memorise menus, as that's one of the things stopping me from getting wwe 12 as the menus are so much more extensive especially with the new universe mode added. On 2/6/12, dan cook wrote: > Hi dark > i totally agree with your points. > I think the main thing i was trying to get across was that there are > games for the wii and such which are playable, as I'd never say that > mainstream games are fully accessible, I simply used accessible in a > loose sense, similar to how its normally used a lot at the moment. > > On 2/6/12, Shiny protector wrote: >> Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How >> about >> the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like >> structure >> and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can >> prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to >> incapacitate >> you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the >> playing field. >> - Original Message - >> From: "Thomas Ward" >> To: "Gamers Discussion list" >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a >> Wii >> game for the blind! >> >> >>> Hi Dark, >>> >>> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a >>> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term >>> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games >>> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can >>> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100% >>> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the >>> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so >>> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in >>> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort >>> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no >>> means says fully accessible as most people understand it. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> >>> On 2/6/12, dark wrote: >>>> Hi Dan. >>>> >>>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of >>>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and >>>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require >>>> memorization >>>> >>>> of >>>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are >>>> not >>>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or >>>> that >>>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good >>>> fun, >>>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only >>>> "accessible" >>>> and >>>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can >>>> play >>>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, >>>> screen >>>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding >>>> (provided >>>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance). >>>> >>>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely >>>> any >>>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, >>>> how >>>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single >>>> game >>>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require >>>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or >>>> vi >>>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or >>>> gameplay >>>> structure are more playable than others. >>>> >>>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible >>>> games >>>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of >>>> Faqs >>>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of >>>> game >>>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game >>>> information just as available to a blind player as to
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi dark i totally agree with your points. I think the main thing i was trying to get across was that there are games for the wii and such which are playable, as I'd never say that mainstream games are fully accessible, I simply used accessible in a loose sense, similar to how its normally used a lot at the moment. On 2/6/12, Shiny protector wrote: > Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How about > the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like structure > and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can > prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to incapacitate > you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the > playing field. > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii > game for the blind! > > >> Hi Dark, >> >> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a >> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term >> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games >> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can >> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100% >> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the >> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so >> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in >> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort >> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no >> means says fully accessible as most people understand it. >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> On 2/6/12, dark wrote: >>> Hi Dan. >>> >>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of >>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and >>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization >>> >>> of >>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are >>> not >>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or >>> that >>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good >>> fun, >>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" >>> and >>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can >>> play >>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, >>> screen >>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided >>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance). >>> >>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any >>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, >>> how >>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single >>> game >>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require >>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi >>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay >>> structure are more playable than others. >>> >>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible >>> games >>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of >>> Faqs >>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of >>> game >>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game >>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one. >>> >>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play >>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games >>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible" >>> >>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the >>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting >>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play, >>> mainstream >>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? we already >>> make >>> them, so bog off, no s
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How about the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like structure and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to incapacitate you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the playing field. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Dark, Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100% accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no means says fully accessible as most people understand it. Cheers! On 2/6/12, dark wrote: Hi Dan. While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization of a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are not considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or that people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good fun, only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" and will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can play it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, screen readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance). Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, how long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single game ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay structure are more playable than others. However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible games on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of Faqs to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of game sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one. As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible" Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play, mainstream companies will turn around and say "accessible games? we already make them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!" Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play 2D platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so we've already done what you want" Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty feeble access solution really, when I asked them what I did for the rest of the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to play those bits" which was down right offensive! So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play mainstream games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like something like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from the start as easily as a sighted gamer. Hope this makes sense. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/m
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Tom. this is actually good to knowk, sinse it means the idea I'm writing about in my thesis makes sense. My concern with the confusion over accessibilityk, is that many institutions or individuals aimed! at disabled people do not considder this. To use an example from my thesis, I for instance was extremely angry when my bank catagorically refused to E-mail me statements, or discuss my bank account over the phone. They stated that they provided braille bank statements which was an "accessible" alternative, ignoring the fact that skim reading is utterly impossible in braille, and I am not going to sit down for an hour and read something it would take a sighted person just minutes to glance through. This was particularly irritating because previously they'd just worked over the phone, however their new security system meant that I! had to answer questions about the current status of my account that could only be gotten from a quarterly bank statement. this was actually amazingly commical, me phoning my bank to ask them what the balance was on my creddit card or my current account and being asked to verify my identity with the very information i! was asking them! I've found a solution, cooperating with my local branch which is luckily five minutes walk down the road and I pass every day, however this is a case where an "accessible" option had been provided by the bank, but one which was not, according to the effort it required actually accessible in the more literal sense. This is the tack I'm afraid that mainstream companies will take if we start talking about how "accessible" mainstream games are, afterall as I said in my previous post, it's not as if I haven't heard that arguement before, and if a big coorporation could improve their image by pretending to be concerned about disabled access while effectively doing bugger all, not to mention casting people like the game accessibility sig who campaign for true access in a very bad light, they certainly would. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Dark, Well, I don't know about your thesis, but I agree that the definition of accessibility is flawed. Most people use the word not thinking about what it truly means in terms of equal effort to access and use the same thing as a non-disabled person. It requires a slightly higher intellectual way of looking at things or personal experience to really see what accessibility means. Case in point. When Esther and I moved into this place we were given a microwave as a gift from her family. They asked if I would be able to use the microwave. She responded once I labeled all the buttons it would be accessible. that, of course, was actually over stating the case. I could braille the buttons on the microwave and therefore it was usable, but not accessible. There are still plenty of features such as the clock I can't use, and I can't see the time remaining on the display as food is cooking. I can't set the time and date on the clock either because it requires reading the prompts or at least memorizing them. There is a way to change the power level from low, to medium, or high and I obviously can't read the display to see what power level it is set at causing problems with over cooking or under cooking food. So to be safe I set the power level out of habit before setting the time. So there is a simple but prime example of just because I can use something doesn't mean I necessarily get full functionality out of it. Its usable, but not fully accessible. The same principle applies to mainstream games. I've recently gotten my hands on some of the wrestling games, and I can say a blind player can play them, but I won't say they are accessible. It takes some memorization to get through the menus, and the controls are slightly different for each wrestler because some are brawlers, grapplers, and powerhouses. A powerhouse type wrestler might perform a lot of throws like body slams where a grappler is best at headlocks and submission moves. A brawler can perform punches, kicks, etc. You have to learn what button does what in the context of the game. It can certainly be done, but takes more effort than anyone else to learn the game and to access the menus etc. Cheers! On 2/6/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > This is actually a general problem with the defifnition of accessibility, > rather than a specifically game related matter. > > commonly, governments, individuals and institutions use the word > "accessible" to mean "have access to" irrispective of the amount of trouble, > effort or inconvenience this access causes. > > Thus, a building can be considdered "wheel chair accessible" even when it > has only one rampk, which requires the wheel chair user to go right around > the outside of the building for a long distance and pump their chair up a > three floor long incline then back round once again, where as everyone else > with working legs can just walk streight up the steps to the front door. > (this is not an exaggeration, I've seen a theatre that does this and claimes > that they are accessible to wheel chairs). > > thus, the deffinition I'm working on for my phd thesis, says that > "accessible" refers to how equalized the amount of effort betwene an average > disabled person and an average none disabled person are with respect to any > particular thing, and while the difference in effort is so utterly > unreasonable, we can't say that a thing is accessible even if it is > something that a disabled person is not actually utterly precluded from > doing. > > So, while absolutely all games may be playable, and some may be playable > with less effort than others on the part of a blind user, only those that go > some way towards equalizing the effort are in any sense accessible. > > So, though I don't blame people for talking about "accessible" mainstream > games, I do think it results from a rather faulty deffinition of what > accessible means, and indeed the deffinition in the guidelines for what > games are and are not allowed on the audiogames.net db, is the one I've just > outlined based on effort. > > Btw, it's nice to know my Phd is already! being practically useful :D. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii > game for the blind! > > >> Hi Dark, >> >> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a >> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term >> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games >> like Mortal Kombat or Street
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Tom. This is actually a general problem with the defifnition of accessibility, rather than a specifically game related matter. commonly, governments, individuals and institutions use the word "accessible" to mean "have access to" irrispective of the amount of trouble, effort or inconvenience this access causes. Thus, a building can be considdered "wheel chair accessible" even when it has only one rampk, which requires the wheel chair user to go right around the outside of the building for a long distance and pump their chair up a three floor long incline then back round once again, where as everyone else with working legs can just walk streight up the steps to the front door. (this is not an exaggeration, I've seen a theatre that does this and claimes that they are accessible to wheel chairs). thus, the deffinition I'm working on for my phd thesis, says that "accessible" refers to how equalized the amount of effort betwene an average disabled person and an average none disabled person are with respect to any particular thing, and while the difference in effort is so utterly unreasonable, we can't say that a thing is accessible even if it is something that a disabled person is not actually utterly precluded from doing. So, while absolutely all games may be playable, and some may be playable with less effort than others on the part of a blind user, only those that go some way towards equalizing the effort are in any sense accessible. So, though I don't blame people for talking about "accessible" mainstream games, I do think it results from a rather faulty deffinition of what accessible means, and indeed the deffinition in the guidelines for what games are and are not allowed on the audiogames.net db, is the one I've just outlined based on effort. Btw, it's nice to know my Phd is already! being practically useful :D. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind! Hi Dark, Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100% accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no means says fully accessible as most people understand it. Cheers! On 2/6/12, dark wrote: Hi Dan. While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization of a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are not considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or that people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good fun, only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" and will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can play it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, screen readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance). Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, how long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single game ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay structure are more playable than others. However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible games on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of Faqs to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of game sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one. As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games can't really be considdered in the st
Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi Dark, Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100% accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no means says fully accessible as most people understand it. Cheers! On 2/6/12, dark wrote: > Hi Dan. > > While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of > persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and > audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization of > a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are not > considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or that > people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good fun, > only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" and > will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can play > it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, screen > readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided > such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance). > > Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any > game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, how > long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single game > ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require > ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi > gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay > structure are more playable than others. > > However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible games > on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of Faqs > to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of game > sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game > information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one. > > As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play > soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games > can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible" > > Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the > other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting > games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play, mainstream > companies will turn around and say "accessible games? we already make > them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!" > > Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low > vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play 2D > platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so > we've already done what you want" > > Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty feeble > access solution really, when I asked them what I did for the rest of > the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to play > those bits" which was down right offensive! > > So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play mainstream > games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting > the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like something > like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from the > start as easily as a sighted gamer. > > Hope this makes sense. > > All the best, > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E
